Following years of failure, the 'Closing The Gap' agreement has been reset with 16 new targets to tackle Indigenous disadvantage. The old targets were not being realised, in the last report tabled in parliament earlier this year it was reported that only two of the seven government set targets to reduce Aboriginal disparity in health, education and employment outcomes were being met. That had been the annual result for several years, with the targets not being realised.

In a revised plan, all governments Federal, State, Territory and Local have committed to new goals for better outcomes for Indigenous Australians in coming years. Government has signed up with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander organisations, through the Coalition of Peaks, which helped to develop the plan and has also signed on. Today PM Morrison said; "(previously) We told Indigenous Australians what the gap was that we were going to close — and somehow thought they should be thankful for that.... That was wrong-headed.... That wasn't the way to do it.... This is the task of us all. And for that to be successful, we need a partnership between all groups." Labor has said it also supports the new agreement.

The Closing The Gap agreement

http://www.closingthegap.gov.au/sites/default/files/files/national-agreement-ctg.pdf?q=0720

Is the new agreement achievable? Or, can we simply expect more failure despite the goodwill and best of intentions from all parties.

Personally I would like to see people like Warren Mundine and Jacinta Price being heard. They are two very successful Indigenous people who are not afraid to speak truth. They also genuinely want change. Instead we get the same old, same old with many gutless conservatives parroting the same lines about disadvantage blah blah. No things won't improve until truths are faced.

Yawn. This crops up every year, when the dust is shaken off the same report. The wording doesn't need changing because nothing actually changes for Aboriginal Australians still living in the Stone Age, with the addition of grog and other substances.

There is nothing hard about this "Gap" nonsense. There is nothing special about Aborigines, most of whom look after themselves in everyday Australia. Your remote black fella is still stuck in the living museum deliberately created by Whitlam and Coombes. Stupid governments over the years might as well have had an annual bonfire will all the taxpayer dollars they have wasted on a useless minority who are beyond help.

So after all these sequential failures, they have not learnt the lesson
that if it is still failing then it won't work.
Just pull out of all aboriginal funding and organisation and leave them
to get on with living.
When faced with reality they will do exactly as everyone else does,
either get a job or live hand to mouth.
All the rubbish about invasions, occupations etc has reached its use by date.

Listen to Warren Mundine: http://www.skynews.com.au/details/_5977377494001

Government needs to support agricultural business in aboriginal communities until it becomes self supporting and pays tax. This with a time limit with the type of business.

As we all know, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. The same goes with people. They have to want to move out of the drunken squalor they have chosen to line in, before anyone can help them out.

I'm afraid that until we perfect the new medical procedure of brain transplant, we are not going to be able to do much for some aboriginals, or the people who would attend a BLM protest/riot.

"Government needs to support agricultural business in aboriginal communities until it becomes self supporting and pays tax."

No, Josephus. This would still be another way of wasting our money. It's already been tried, and the Aboriginal "enterprises" are now covered in weeds, and land returned to its natural state. Some people don't want to change and they don't want to work. This failing is not confined to people identifying as Aboriginal, but it's only those people who get money thrown at them. White bludgers just get the dole - nothing else, and certainly not the do-gooder sympathy and undeserved attention that the former gets via official racist policy.

In the failed targets over the last 30 years has one public servant been sacked?

The elephant in the room is about to chuck another fit and go berserk at the arrogance of those people behind this egregious and unconscionable act of abuse directed at the rest of the Aussie population.
Firstly, those of you who actually believe in this pathetic and disgraceful act of further stealing money from the rest of us are so misguided and out of touch you border on being a danger to the rest of us.
I went to Paul's link and immediately felt like vomiting from the first few words.
If anyone thinks I'm going to pay homage or show any respect towards a bunch of people who have done nothing, do nothing but bleat and bitch about nothing, stealing money and benefits along the way, they can all go and get............!
How stupid do these scum-bag ministers and their lap dogs, think we are? Oh wait a minute, I know I'm not stupid, so they must mean the neuters, snags, and various PC pundits, and deplorables.
I demand we do nothing to assist or accommodate the blacks as of now, and not increase the benefits and glorify them even further.
As much as some do not want to hear it, but this is going to further the rift and widen the gap rather than the opposite.
The only gap that's going to be closed is the one between the ears of those promoting this farce of a decision.
The few true ABORIGINE'S that are left, could not give a rats about these pathetic acts and display of power and one upmanship.
And as for that pair of wannabee's, well you know what you can do with them.
Stop trying to pass off another pair of lying scheming con artists as aborigine, when we, and they, all know full well they're NOT!
How can so many people be so foolish, stupid, gutless, afraid of being virtue shamed, and not reject a false premise, and one so huge as this one?
And don't insult me and those of us who know the truth and how vial and repulsive this is.

Hi Paul,

Goodness me - what a fantastic idea by the Government
for the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples
to close the gap with a 16 new overhauled plan. The old
methods haven't worked but apparently they've established
new targets to address some of the most crucial problems
facing Indigenous Australians.

This time the government is going to work with Indigenous
groups to ensure success and some of the issues they going
to address will be things like -

1) Indigenous incarceration.
2) Domestic violence.
3) Suicide.
4) Child removals.
5) Strong relationships with land and culture.

They've set targets to be reached by the 1930s.
So that our Indigenous people can have the 'same hopes, same
rights, same aspirations, same goals" as other Australians.

It all sound lovely. And I don't want to put a damper on
things. I wish the government every success. But why do I
have this feeling that all this is just another political
ploy - giving the perception that something is being done
and the reality will be a different story altogether.

Nah, We should give it a chance, I guess. Fingers-crossed
and hope for the best.

cont'd ...

Dear Paul,

If they can get the kids into staying at school, getting
an education, lifting employment and training prospects
for them, that alone would be a big deal. Fingers-crossed
that something good at least will come out of all this.
At least the government is trying to do something.

Foxy, yes it's me.
You didn't think I was letting you get away without some kind of adjustment to your reasoning.
Generally I accept your words of hope and cynicism regarding the actual goals being achieved or even attempted, and neither should they be.
But to the points at hand.
1) Indigenous Incarcerations; yeah they have already begun the process by simply not incarcerating black offenders any more, WHY?
Because they are incarcerated for non payment of fines, and court orders, so let's not incarcerate or fine them anymore is the decision made by absolute morons.
2) Domestic violence. REALLY? What do you recommend, we put a policeman or correctional officer in every black mans home?
There is no answer to this one and you know it, we can only hope that the gene or whatever it is will be eventually bred out of them as they intermarry with non blacks.
Even then, good luck.
3)Suicide! Hmmm, no-one is experienced or qualified to correct this one, irrespective of what the experts say.
4)Child removals, well what can I say. Those who were removed have grown up to be, dare I say, "normal" people, or much better socially adjusted and integrated, and with no incarcerations.
They should never have stopped it.
5)Strong relationships with land and culture. Rubbish! It's just another stitch up by the scum pushing this fallacy.
It's simply a ruse to garner support and sympathy and more so, empathy, so as to get buffoons to help promote their false claims and agenda.

ALTRAV,

You have your opinion.

I have mine.

They're poles apart.

No surprises there.

Dear Paul,

Just a further addition. This plan of the government's
might work better than previous attempts have done.
We can only hope that it will. If the government will
support initiatives led by the Indigenous communities
to address the priorities identified by those
communities as to what's required - then possibly that's
a step in the right direction in trying to solve some
of the problems.

For example, the needs of students in remote communities
I imagine would be different. From what we do know is
that a vast majority of Indigenous kids are well behind
those of non-Indigenous kids in urban areas. And the
schools that Indigenous students attend are also different.

Keeping more high quality teachers in remote areas would be
a worthwhile policy. Alone it is not sufficient. That's
where getting advice from the local communities and what
their needs are would help.

I feel empathy for Aboriginals, but I agree with Hasbeen.

In the end, like any one else, you have to just get on with it.

My brother was a high school teacher in 1960's in western NSW where there were 16 aboriginals children in his roll classes. He stated it was lucky if 4 turned up to school, the others, spent the day fishing and swimming in the lake. School subjects like reading, writing or expression or mathematics was of no interest to them; their interests were playing football or boxing or riding horses. Their parents survived for 40,000 years without white man education and earning money in the Bank, so these things are unimportant to their mind.

Hi Foxy,

When I start a new discussion, I usually let the 'Blowhards' and 'Usual Suspects', get in quick, being the first half dozen to post a reply. Let them blow off steam, and doing their lolly on the topic might be good for their karma, they never fail to oblige. Can always rely on the old boy Il Duce to go off like a fired up Mussolini at his ranting best.

The new approach of being inclusive of aboriginal people is different, and certainly worth a go. Setting a wider target range is encouraging, as is state and territory involvement. I don't wish to be negative, I'm forever the optimists, and I'll take what you said as possible;

"If the government will support initiatives led by the Indigenous communities to address the priorities identified by those
communities as to what's required - then possibly that's
a step in the right direction in trying to solve some
of the problems."

The involvement of Aboriginal people through the Coalition of Peaks is essential, it gives them a degree of "mana" they never enjoyed before. Your points on education, are totally necessary for the long term success of the program.

Adding to that, I have confidence in Ken Wyatt the Minister for Aboriginal Affairs, although a conservative he is a voice willing to push issues, seek funding where necessary, and drive the agenda. With states and territories being held to account that is a step in the right direction as well. Lots of positives can see much that's negative about it.

Dear Paul,

I've got confidence in Ken Wyatt as well.

He seems to be taking the right steps.

Slowly but surely. He just may succeed where
others have failed.

It's the right approach.

Josephus, what you say might well have been the case thousands of years ago.
I think you have a point though.
Seeing as how you ARE right and they did survive for thousands of years on their own without ANY assistance from ANYONE, and good on them, they deserved a medal for being ONE of the longest surviving races, without external influence in the world, you have single-handedly resolved the blacks problem.
All the govt has to do is stop funding and assisting them and repatriate them or set them up in the bush again.
There they can be as one with the land, their ancestors, their culture, their sacred sights, WOW! I can't believe it, they would be so happy, they would have achieved ALL their goals and best of all, they would not have to associate with the riff-raff who continually lead them astray and cause them all the grief they have been suffering; THE WHITE FELLA'S!
Josephus, you're brilliant, I think you should be nominated for an award of some kind, maybe one showing the blacks the way back to where they came from.
Yeh, that sounds very profound and praise-worthy, certainly worth an official aknowledgement or two.

they did survive for thousands of years on their own
Altrav,
I very much doubt that ANY indigenous anywhere on this Planet desires to go back to the Stone Age lifestyle.
What we must take as a bench mark is the earliest known society that planned for the future besides having food in the belly for today !
Also, humans just happen to be the latest living beings. Animal species have been around for millions of years before humans & they became extinct before humans arrived.
Were they successful for over 40,000 years ?
Closing this 'GAP' requires more than just a few Academics or part Aborigines wanting to be seen as compassionate. It require Aborigines to put their plans on the table & follow them through. It has been proven 101 % beyond any doubt that Money is not the magic ingredient to achieve the closing of this Gap. Good Will, responsibility & effort by all residents of this Nation is THE ONLY way to eventually end up with a better, more cohesive & harmonious society !

Dear Paul,

I don't understand why any Australian would want to
avoid seeing facts and tar Indigenous people all with
the same prejudiced brush. Our indigenous nations were
decimated by disease, conflict and subjugation and
they now make up a mere 2.8% of the total population
and we continue to deny them certain human rights.

Closing the Gap is a government strategy which aims to
reduce disadvantage among Aboriginal and Torres Strait
Islander people with respect to - life expectancy, child
mortality, access to early childhood education, educational
achievement, and employment outcomes.

It aims to breach the gap and disparity in mortality
rates and living standards between Indigenous and non-
Indigenous Australians. We help our non-Indigenous vulnerable
people. Why not our Indigenous? And now with the involvement
of their own communities - perhaps this time the government
will have greater success.

It's worth a try.

An any one who does not get it - is a bum, as a former PM
once said!

Foxy, the only thing that resonates from what you said is; "I have mine", referring to opinions.
Yes you're right they are YOUR OPINIONS, where-as my words are from information, historic and current, available even to you if you were interested in considering the truth about what has been going on for years on this topic.
I don't know why you, or anyone, for that matter insist on pushing a futile agenda.
It's now official, because of this new scam 'closing the gap 2.0', I understand there are a number of ethnic communities who are preparing submissions to the govt, citing this new scam.
They are incensed that the blacks are being treated as special and given preferential treatment over everyone else.
This kind of behaviour is clearly prejudicial and biased and even considered racist by far more people than is acceptable in a democracy.
So as usual the minorities, or 1% of a population get 99% of the attention, funding and rewards while the 99% get the shaft and 1% of what little to nothing left.
There is no reason or rhyme and certainly NO justification for this new attempt at a cash grab and special treatment.

ALTRAV,

Actually it's not just my opinion.
I am a professional - and I base
my views on facts.

All you seem to do as another poster
pointed out - is blather, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah.

When and if you ever really
research ALL the issues involved, and manage
to come up with something of substance
apart from your usual rants and raves -
I will be happy to continue this conversation
with you. Until then I'll leave you to share
your "knowledge" with your kindred spirits
on this forum - from whom I'm sure you'll get
plenty of support.

Guys who have a tendency to avoid seeing facts
and tar everyone with the same prejudiced brush.
Thankfully you're not representative of the
entire Australian population.

Foxy, now your overreaching.
I am referring to what "real"people are saying and thinking.
You are quoting YOUR facts as you promote yourself as a professional, and good for you, it's good to see people who think they are a viable part of the community, even if it is only their opinion or of their own creation.
I do believe you utterly and completely that you believe your reasoning and opinions are meant to be a positive and productive influence on any decision or process of same, but unfortunately, if you care to study your words and opinions closely, you will find them either non-productive or counter productive, and that's not my opinion it's taken from your method of reasoning and research, as you have openly admitted time and again over previous postings in the past.

Anyway, I think the discussion is irrelevant.
By the end of next year we will probably be in debt for
a trillion dollars. There just will not be the money to enable such plans.
If interest rates rise then our situation will be very tight.
Indigenous funding will be out of the question.

I do not think many people understand what a trillion dollars really
looks like.
Look at this;
http://tinyurl.com/y3h7h9ha

Bazz, as much as I think you may be right, future debt aside for a moment, I believe like all the past attempts at govt's appearing to DO something, that's all they do is; something, so if anyone asks or researches the issue they will find that "something" IS actually being done.
Unfortunately it is never what is expected and rarely achieves the goals it was supposed to achieve.
Besides, these attempts at virtuosity, are fronts or excuses for certain people to get their hands on money and grants intended for the blacks and the causes set up to assist and aid them.
Unfortunately the money is handled by the whites and the wannabees and NOTHING but tokenism ever reaches it's destination; the blacks!
I and millions of others cannot understand why we are WASTING so much time, energy and mostly money on a purely emotive, subject that will only end up no-where like all the previous attempts, because we know we have been here before and unfortunately I fear that we will be here again when the next group of con-men try to push for more and more, and the pathetic, gutless people lacking the fortitude, courage and wisdom to see through all the lies, dishonesty and deceit, cave in to these scum-bags once more.
And anyone who thinks that the two wannabees in govt pretending to be pushing this cause, are actually going to achieve ANYTHING WORTHWHILE, you are amongst the most unrealistic and mis-guided of those who are so far out of touch with the real world or reality, that your comments and opinions are worthless and have no basis, foundation or material facts to back them up or support them, thereby making them irrelevant.

ALTRAV you are the most "factless" poster on the Forum. I'm sure if a "black" person was coming your way you would cross to the other side of the street to avoid contamination. Take this little gem from you, just one of many; "I (ALTRAV) understand there are a number of ethnic communities who are preparing submissions to the govt, citing this new scam." I say you simple made that up, provide evidence if you are so convinced that this is fact. If you are going to put a flour sack over your head when it comes to our "black" brethren, at least have the sense to cut some eye holes in it so you can see a little of the reality. At the moment all you are doing is bumbling around in the dark, lashing out with nonsense.

"All the govt has to do is stop funding and assisting them and repatriate them or set them up in the bush....." From most posters I would take all that as attempted sarcasm, but coming from you, one with no grip on the reality what so ever, its probably what you believe.

Guys who have a tendency to avoid seeing facts
Foxy,
Are you a 'Guy" too then ?

Paul 14.05klm from Nimbin.

Your a very confused puppy son.

The world you and the rent gouger SteeleRedux live in, is devoid of colour actually.

In your attempt to conform to the specifications of the liberal Neuva race, that being one of racial purity (as Hitler did actually), your arguments fall in a heap at the intersection controlled by George Bush. IE "your either with us or against us".
That is a world where simpletons like yourselves dwell: the top branches of the faraway tree with saucepan man.

the world in which I grew up in and lived a life in, teaches positive lessons of integration along its path, and produces entirely different outcomes to your own sad view.

There is not a problem living a life in the society we were born into, if we are permitted to defend ourselves against external attacks on our personal space.
But when for example, I consider my space superior to your space and begin to take from you what is not mine, there is a problem.

At this point you jump in with conflated out of context historical data supporting your black and white view, "whites are racist". No they are not racist. As with all racial profiles in the world, it boils down to this; Humans are racist". It's in-built.

As evinced by your posts on this forum, your actually paranoid. You have built a wall of victim-hood around yourself, have isolated yourself and defended yourself from within its fearful walls. Your main weapon is attack by lies and innuendo. In the most part, it's an attack on the white race of this country you call yours. That is bearish behaviour.

The fault of multiculturalism is what drives you to distraction. All races are racist.
Racism is escalating in this country, not because whites call blacks coons, but because immovable racists like yourself, refuse to acknowledge that racism is a normal status.

Defending blacks as you do, with a blunt one-sided view, heightens the problem of multiculturalism and exacerbates the negative it is.

Dan

If you don't want to ever close the gap, you should do exactly what we are doing. The surest way to ensure a problem isn't solved is to create a government programme designed to solve it.

After all, there are now myriad people whose very livelihoods depends on there always being a gap needing addressing. Government employees, academics, ABBAriginal bureaucrats. All need these programmes to continue ad infinitum to enhance their welfare, prestige and career.

As to the people who are supposed to be the ones needing help? Who gives a damn about them? Nothings changed for them in the last 0 years and nothing will change in the next. The system is designed that way.

That's right, mhaze: the whole thing is as boring as batshite and nothing is going to change. 99.9% of Australians, black or white, don't give a damn; never give a thought to gaps, reconciliation, or people who will never get off their arses to help themselves. The so-called victims of the gap don't care either, as they sit around boozing and sniffing their miserable lives away. The whole Aboriginal thing is just a luxury for virtue signallers with nothing better to do than waste other people's money on something that is a fact of life and here to stay.

Mhaze, True! If there were no problems in the world the whole system would collapse, as people had no government grants or jobs. We cannot solve all the problems in one generation, as the next would not have to propose ideas to fix them. The proposals keep them employed, not the solving.

Paul, I couldn't agree more, with you when you say I'm the most "factless" poster on the forum.
The reason being is that I don't rely on facts, as anyone knows, facts alone or in isolation are simply "facts", and absolutely NEVER tell the truth or the true story.
What I speak of is the TRUTH.
Now had you said I was lying, then I would have had no option to respond in the most aggressive terms, as your accusations would have been those of an uninformed, ignorant, petulant and immature child, with some kind of emotional issues.
But I don't think that's the case, only that you present as such.
Now the question you should have considered before you decided to carry on like a "two bob watch" is; how does he know these things, are they true, and further questioned my comments, NOT dismiss them out of hand.
What I say is based on witnessing and overhearing conversations in condemnation of such stupid greed and deliberate theft on the part of scum like the two thieving ministers, you and Foxy praise so much.
It really is sad and disappointing to watch while people like you, Foxy and a few others have this naive and un-realistic view of the world.
Some may consider it sweet and nice but unfortunately that's not being honest, either with yourselves or the rest of the people around you who have to share in the problems and sorrows of the world.
You and your lot are not helping, I give you truths, you guys give me slurs and childish responses, but never a useful, helpful, thoughtful, insightful or progressive suggestion or comment between you.
Your, (and your running mates) views are rarely of any use, in fact I've written about Foxy's incessant, habitual and patronising attitude of writing the obvious, as if we are all stupid and un-informed.
Maybe those people you know or associate with, I know I'm not, so you guys are merely preaching to yourselves, and good for you, but leave the rest of us off your hit list.

Decades ago we were told that "Land Rights" and other related legislation
was going to solve all the problems that aborigines have.

Then why are we still pumping in billions of dollars ?
Whatever has been tried has been a dismal failure.
Just pull the plug and let the fittest survive.
It is the one solution that is certain to work.

Dear Paul,

Lets take a look at history.
( taken from the link given below):

We're told that:

Our nation is not a white nation - since the initial
shameful subjugation of the Indigenous nations of
this continent by British colonization. Our Indigenous
nations decimated by disease, conflict, and subjugation
now make up a mere 2.8% of the total population and we
still continue to deny them certain human rights.

In the earliest colonial years our Indigenous people were
supplemented in the main by British convicts, free settlers,
and their indentured laborers. Hence the notion of a
racially white Australia, later upheld by the cringe-worthy
"White Australia " policy.

Australia's Yolngu Aboriginal nations and Torres Strait
Islander people claim they were trading with Chinese
and Indonesians (Makassans) 100s of years before the
discovery of the continent by Europeans.

Aspects of these cultures were integrated by some Top
End mobs and are still evident. Chinese sources refer to
a 1477 map that shows the outline of the Australian
continent.

Some of our Chinese communities go back 5 generations,
working here initially as indentured labour to supplement
a penal colony with a skills shortage, clearing land
and providing the colonists with food by establishing their
earlier commercial market gardens.

Many of our homegrown racists have shorter lineages linked
to Australia than the Chinese who helped to build this nation.

History is repeated when seeking to fill skill shortages -
again Australia looks to South Asia.

Australia has seen many waves of migration from
particular regions - and each time there's been some
xenophobic push-back in our cities and amidst our pale-stale
male politicians. Currently the focus is on our new
African asylum seekers than economic migrants from Asia.

But eventually as the migrant communities integrate everyone
becomes accepted as just another Aussie. We're all
Australians first, ethnic heritage is second to this.

Closing the gap is a government strategy which aims to reduce
disadvantage among Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander
people - this time working with their own communities and what's
needed in their communities. Hopefully it will work this time.

http://www.quora.com/As-a-white-Australian-are-you-worried-that-Melbourne-and-Sydney-are-becoming-predominantly-Asian-as-it-becomes-increasingly-cosmopolitan

Bazz,

Ooooo, no we can't do that, just think of those poor greedy, lying scheming ministers and their lobbying mates who would go without their much sought after avenues of theft and stealing money from the many causes they laud and promote, which gives them access to the public coffers with impunity and all approved and promoted by the stupid air heads and do-gooders, who can't see beyond their useless, gutless, child like mindsets and attitudes.
You know something, I would like to travel back in time, find and kill that useless, stupid prick who first uttered the ignorant words; "The meek shall inherit the world".
What a stupid and dangerous, counter productive thing to say.
We are witnessing the results of that morons words today in people like, we know who.
The meek has cost us the earth, and if left to them, we will lose even more till we are beholding to the evil people of the world.
We MUST become more aggressive and assertive if we are to succeed and regain control of our lives/world.
I am the assertive, aggressive kind, and thankfully there are others out there of like minds.
It is people like myself that will eventually have to clean up the mess that the do-gooders and pansies create for us.
As an example, does China seem meek and mild to anyone?
No they are the opposite, and they ARE NOT waiting to "inherit" the world, they are out there aggressively taking it, one way or another.
I can't wait to hear Foxy and Paul's take on that and their pathetic meek, conciliatory and completely unrealistic attitude to life generally.

Come on people, can't you see that this is simply a new scheme to come out of academia & the bureaucracy to make sure the indigenous gravy train is kept full of cash for them to luxuriate in.

Just think how many academics would have no job, & how many 10s of thousands public servants[?] would have no reason for their over paid "jobs" if we stopped wasting billions on the aboriginal welfare rort. Hell thousands of middle men, contractors, tradesmen & transport operators would be out of work if we stopped building infrastructure, homes & sporting facilities in remote out stations for our bush aboriginals to destroy.

Not that long ago we the taxpayer spent 27 million on an aboriginal settlement of 29 houses, & all the other stuff found only in towns of several thousand residents, in an area not remote, in fact not that distant from here. It is mostly destroyed, & some want to rebuild it.

I'll bet SR is pushing for more of such stupidity. I wonder what his angle is? No one with even half a brain could think it was a good idea.

I seem to recall that "All we want is an apology" was the catch-cry for closing that 'Gap'.
So, the Dudd apologised !
Istead oif closing this Gap it is now wider than ever. Non-indigenous Australians have fallen Ar$e over backwards just to be called racists by racists ?

Reminds of some years ago when an islander said to me "you people are only here for the money, you don't spend it here in our community". I reminded him that I was one of those taxpayers & workers who build everything he & his family live in, on & with.
He couldn't give me an answer when I asked him what he wanted me to spend my wages on in his community after all, I could not buy land there to live plus once I retired I am no longer needed & even less wanted there. So, what to spend my money on & for what ?

"Australia's Yolngu Aboriginal nations and Torres Strait
Islander people claim they were trading with Chinese
and Indonesians (Makassans) 100s of years before the
discovery of the continent by Europeans."

Wow, makes it sound like they were sailing up to Shanghai loaded with goodies.

But in fact they were just sitting around waiting for the Chinese to turn up occasionally. The Chinese, who'd been fishing the South China Sea for centuries, were trading with them.

And what was being traded? I don't think there was much call for stone axes in Peking. Perhaps those sticks that came back might have been fun for the kiddies back home.

The Chinese had plenty to trade - beads, metal tools, pottery...stuff that would have seemed like magic to the locals.

But what was the main commodity the aboriginals traded in return? Women. Yep the Chinese came to buy concubines for the various Chinese nobles. It seems they were rather prized back home. Selling women in a society where women were treated as equals? Doesn't make sense. But aboriginal women were mere chattels. Slaves to be sold at will.

Still we do have to acknowledge that immigrants have made a great contribution to the nation. In particular those people who came out here on assisted passage back in 1788 are owed a lot. Apart from massively increasing the social diversity of the nation, significantly increasing the multicultural nature of society, they also massively increased the economic well-being of the nation. We owe so much to that immigrate wave.

England gave us our institutions, but according to
Gerard Henderson, Ireland gave us our egalitarianism.
John Howard would tell anyone who'd listen that the
British heritage is immense (he was hoping for a
knighthood which embarrassingly for him - didn't happen,
Tony Abbott gave it a shot as well). However according to
Henderson this theory didn't go far enough.

The fact is that the implementation of democratic government
in Australia was also tempered by non-British influences.
Most notably that part of the Australian experience that
was affected by both the Irish tradition and the
Labour movement, as well as - other ethnic influences.

Australia is part of the New World, the world of immigrants,
not part of the Old World or the places they embark from.

This is why we are suspicious of inherited titles and
privileges. Nobody can afford to get too precious about
their position or entitlements in this country because we
all know that position and entitlements are comparatively
new.

'Australia is part of the New World, the world of immigrants,
not part of the Old World or the places they embark from.'

hopefully not immigrants like this Afghan in Germany who raped and 11 year old girl, was let out of prison after 12 days (experts said he was no risk) and then raped a 13 year old.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8580315/Outrage-Germany-Afghan-migrant-rapes-two-girls.html

runner,

Or hopefully not like the "Jack-the Ripper" types,
or the white blokes who raped and killed the women in
Melbourne - right? I think that we all agree - keep
the crims out. Oh wait - didn't this nation begin as
a penal colony?

'Oh wait - didn't this nation begin as
a penal colony?'

I think any man who raped an 11 year old and then a 13 year old would of been put to death. But I would not expect you Foxy to be concerned about this. You are to busy virtue signalling and obviously does not fit your narrative.

runner,

All you want to do is - spew, spew, spew.

It fits your narrative.

So, go for it.

Keep it up if it makes you feel good.

Vent your spleen - by all means.

Whatever's eating you must be suffering terribly.

Runner,

You never fail to find the worst in some people in order to denigrate entire groups. You'd be a bastard to live with, assuming that you live with someone.

Joe

Louidmouth,

I have the utmost respect for you and your comments and opinions, BUT might I suggest going easy on some of us when it comes to defending Foxy.
She has been somewhat unrestrained with her language and demeanor as of late.
I have noticed lately, over a period of time, that her language and usually restrained indifference, decorum and emotions, have risen to a level of which she has accused me of previously.
Her language and emotions lately are well below what I am used to from her.
It appears she has allowed herself to become the very people she continually denigrates and refuses to acknowledge, and even holding them in contempt, for having views other than her own.
Please do not take my comments as critique, but more as a query.
Thank you.

mhaze its always nice to hear from you, but to pick you up on a "fact" you are claiming.

"But what was the main commodity the aboriginals traded in return? Women. Yep the Chinese came to buy concubines for the various Chinese nobles. It seems they were rather prized back home. Selling women in a society where women were treated as equals? Doesn't make sense. But aboriginal women were mere chattels. Slaves to be sold at will"

That may well be true. a distinct possibility, but where is your evidence, or like so much of your dribble are you making this claim up as well.

runner, you never fail do you.

And Jesus said unto the little children; "Go forth and kick the crap out of the Afghans." Did you ever consider such a person might be mentally deranged, Afghan or not.

Yes Joe, Il Duce wants you to go easy on him and the rest of the mob, they are very sensitive souls.

"I have the utmost respect for you and your comments and opinions" What a suck up! The only opinions he values are his own, and any that agree with him. Which is all good and well, but he doesn't need to suck up

Hi Foxy and Joe, totally unrelated to the topic.

Foxy, all good in Melbourne? Have you been out in your face mask, the numbers are very concerning. Reports that 25% of infected people were found to be out and about is of real concern. Keep safe.

Joe, pleased that the virus has not taken off in remote communities. With so many underlying heath issues, in particular elderly Aboriginals, had it gone rampant the death toll in that group alone would have been very high. So far so good.

In 1701, aJesuit Priest wrote a letter to the King of Spain in which he mentions 3 natives from the north of Australia being picked up in the open sea in a bark canoe & taken to safety in manila.
So, could it be that Aborigines invaded the Philippines before the Europeans invaded Australia ?

BUT might I suggest going easy on some of us when it comes to defending Foxy.
ALTRAV,
I get the feeling another Nancy Pelosi the venom spitter is in the making !

Paul,

you pathetic moron, why do you persist in displaying your childish, petulance?
If you were not so "quick to pick", you would have noted that I was not sucking up to anyone and especially for myself, but I clearly used the words "some of us", which, if you were ever a little more even handed and reasonable would see it is a general term to encapsulate more than just myself.
Why on earth would I comment on something aimed at others, when I am not specifically mentioned?
The answer is, because in YOUR mind, YOU would like to imagine me sucking up to Joe.
Ironic, that you had to jump to the keyboard and put your foot in your mouth again, when the evidence of both you and Foxy, CONTINUALLY sucking up to others actually is a thing and has been going on forever.
You couldn't help yourself, by just doing so again in your last post.
Oh and BTW, I believe I was very clear in my posting, and I definitely was NOT sucking up to Joe, as opposed to you and Co.
I made sure he was clear about my point and directed comments accordingly.
YOU, decided I was sucking up, for whatever reason you drummed up in your own mind.
Mate stop shooting yourself in the foot, if the adjudicators aren't sick and tired of you and your continual badgering and picky, annoying rhetoric, EVERYONE ELSE IS!

'
runner, you never fail do you.

And Jesus said unto the little children; "Go forth and kick the crap out of the Afghans." Did you ever consider such a person might be mentally deranged, Afghan or not.'

have you ever considered Paul it might say more about the 'experts' who let this man out of gaol 12 days after raping a 13 year old girl to do it again. Might also be a hint that a little bit of selective immigration might also display an ounce of wisdom.

Paul_etc who, perhaps more than any other poster here, is prone to making widely incorrect assertions, demands

"That may well be true. a distinct possibility, but where is your evidence, or like so much of your dribble are you making this claim up as well."

We've been here before on this exact same issue.
I've mentioned it before.
He's asked for evidence before.
I've provided evidence before.
He's ignored that evidence before.

He just doesn't want it to be true, and that, for Paul, is the same thing as it not being true.

As to the evidence, I've previously pointed him to Blainey's "Triumph of the Nomads", to various Lyndal Ryan essays, and to the J. Brook essay "The Confusions of Pleasure: Commerce and Culture in Ming China".

I'd also mention that geneticists researching the the lost legions of Carrhae found unaccounted for Australian Aboriginal DNA in some current Chinese populations.

But the facts don't bother Paul. After all he's fallen for the Pig-Iron Bob malarkey and myriad other tall tales from the left.

..."like so much of your dribble are you making this claim up as well."

Of course, Paul's never shown where I've just made up claims.

Pretty funny when someone makes up claims about made-up claims.

The logic of that will go over Paul's head.

_______________________________________________________________

The utter lack of compassion from the usual apologists for two young girls raped is revealing.

mhaze,

Again you've missed the point. Nobody was defending
criminals and men who rape. The objection was to
runner's picking on just one ethnic type of crim.
And as pointed out there are many others of various
types. Pointing that out does not mean that any one is
depending rapists. What is revealing is that you think
we are.

Tsk, tsk. Point out when we're wrong - not when you are.

cont'd ...

Ooops, sorry for the typo. I'd better make it clear
that the word should have been "defending" not
"depending" before mhaze nit-picks. I wans't wearing
my glasses and mis-typed.

There you go.

As for ALTRAV's comments? Funny how he never criticizes
runner's language or thoughts or any one else whose views
agree with his own. - only Foxy's.

He needs to keep his perceptions of me -
out of MY business!

He needs to take a look in a mirror.
(mirrors don't lie - and lucky for him they don't laugh).

Gotta laugh!

Foxy,

You rather pointedly missed the point when pointed the finger and you said I missed the point.

I wasn't commenting on people excusing or minimising the actions of the rapist. We all know, or should know, that that's unconscionable.

I was merely pointing out the lack of any compassion or sympathy for the victims.

Of course the usual suspects always demur showing compassion for the victims of favoured groups or persons....remember Tara Reade?

Foxy,

now you know very well why I pull YOU up more often than most.
You have been told so many times, that all the other commentors are sick of hearing it, so don't try your usual evasion tactics on me, I know you well enough by now, or at least that side of you that is relative to this forum and your comments and beliefs.
I think I should take this opportunity to enlighten you somewhat on your language.
I accept my lot and the fact that I grew up in a "street-wise" environment, as a boy, so I can justify my language and in doing so should give me a certain amount of flexibility and tolerance from the more educated and polished of those here on OLO.
But you Foxy, I would expect much better from.
You have had the privilege of education and elevated yourself above and away from my humble beginnings and questionable surroundings.
I am eluding to the fact that your language of late is deteriorating to a level closely resembling mine, and believe it or not, I am saddened and slightly disappointed to read it.
I don't mind you berating me or anyone you feel the need to, but please don't allow yourself to be dragged into a world you are not suited to nor familiar with.
Carry on.

mhaze,

What lack of compassion for the victims?

Compassion for the victims is felt very deeply.

Hence the comments that followed and the objections
to runner's comments.

ALTRAV,

I shall repeat - keep your perceptions of me out of
my business. And as I've told you in the past you have
no idea of the immensity of the WTF I don't give about
what you think!

Foxy, it is not unreasonable to pick on the moslems' rape of those girls.
In the UK and elsewhere it is a rampant culture under police protection.
They are sometimes tried in mass show trials of 15 or 20 at a time when
the media makes a fuss about it.
Those that think this is an exaggeration, I am not talking about Syria
the Yadizis or such middle eastern country where it is accepted practise
if the girls are infidels, I am talking about Great Britain ! Yes the UK !
The police are afraid to act because they could be charged with Islamaphobia.
Now I know Foxy that you think I am biased, and yes I am.
You may have that belief and it is well founded, as are the charges.
It is a pity the we cannot report court cases without being accused of
Islamaphobia, and cops can lose their jobs for acting against the gangs.
Oh yes, phobia means an unreasonable fear.
Is it an unreasonable fear, at least the father who was trying to bash
a door down at the house where his daughter was one of their victims
had an unreasonable fear as the police charged him with damage to the door.
They did nothing to get his daughter out of that house.

We know a few years ago that this practise was engaged in by moslem rape
gangs, they have a word for it, in Australia.

Is it still going on ?

Dear Bazz,

I don't know if you're biased or not.

I can only speak from my own experiences.

The Muslims that I know and have had dealings
with have not been fundamentalists, terrorists,
or rapists. The same goes for the Catholics,
Protestants, or any other religious or non-
religious people with whom I have had dealings.

I bet that all of us don't usually have much to
do with criminals of any description. And of course
criminal behaviour should not be tolerated and
the full force of the law should be hurled at them.

Thanks Foxy for taking such a tolerant position.
I think the father I mentioned in my last post will be biased now.
There is a test that is given to moslems to test their attitude.
They ask them do they support and agree with the relevant Koran verses.
They will ever deny them.
I think from way back you mentioned a Moslem doctor you liked.
Pick a relevant verse, perhaps about women, and ask him if he agrees with it.
If he does not then he is not a Moslem.
There are many "Moslems" I am told are not very religious at all and many
are moving away from Islam gradually but are restrained by family.

If I was an employer, and I have never been such, I would never employ
a Moslem as they are signed up to a religion that requires them to kill
me "Wherever you find them". Oh well I guess I am VERY biased, hi !

Dear Bazz,

I wouldn't dream of asking my Muslim doctor about
any religious verses.
Her religion is her private business.
And has nothing to do with the medical treatment
that she provides.

It would be very inappropriate of me to bring religion
into our relationship.

Yes, understood but she believes in killing Infidels wherever she finds them.
Not a good qualification for a doctor.

Attacking billions of people for the wrongs of a very small minority within that group is the bastion of a racists.

"If I was an employer, and I have never been such, I would never employ a Moslem as they are signed up to a religion that requires them to kill me". That narrative is disputed by millions of Muslims, the world over. If it suits your narrative then stick with it. Man with the facts, what percentage of Muslims kill because of their religion? 10%, 20%, 30%, 100%?

Then you would not employ a person from the suburb of Collingwood in Melbourne, it has a higher crime rate than any other Melbourne burb. You can carry that bigotry to the extreme if you like.

Il Duce, fired up again "(Paul1405) you pathetic moron" I feel badly slighted by that barb, can't I have a bit of your sucking up as well, I'm being left out. Now you are sucking up to Foxy; "You have had the privilege of education and elevated yourself above and away from my humble beginnings and questionable surroundings." Does it not bring one to tears. ALTRAV, if I had a penny I'd throw it your way, just to get you out of that gutter of yours.

Dear Bazz,

You have no way of knowing what my doctor does or
doesn't believe. And as a doctor I doubt whether
she would believe in the killing of anyone. It
would be against the oath she took.

If you want to continue having a conversation like
an adult I would politely suggest that you drop
you thug like mentality and continue as a rational
human being - which I hope you are capable of being.

That narrative is disputed by millions of Muslims,
Paul1405,
So, is it our Media that fails to show these millions of Muslims speaking up against the few ?
Thus far, every Muslim I have seen interviewed on TV re disputing the fanatics, has not actually done so.
I know many muslims who are totally against the fanatics but none will stand there & say so openly. They can't say so because there's no protection for them to do so.
When decent people face persecution including in Australia then what hope is there ?
The very same applies to the half-baked, pretend Indigenous here who ruin it all for the easy-going real Indigenous who only want to live in peace but can't because of the pretend ones relentlessly tearing the scabs of history in which they had no dealings just as Whities of today had no dealings in !
There will never be a closed gap, not even a walkway across it as long as there are Paul1405's!

individual,

You're welcome to speak out any time you feel like
it. As is anyone else. And believe me - many people
do of all descriptions - black, white, Catholic,
Muslim. Perhaps you need to come out to the big
cities where the action is taking place. It just
may open up your eyes and your mind.

As for Paul's? He is reigning supreme at No. 1!

Foxy, Paul,

I know you get it and it irks you that you can't come out and openly admit it, for fear of losing face and being found out and exposed, for the hypocrites your own words have exposed you to be.
I'll say it again for the benefit of all those who oppose you both for your relentless misguided and narrow beliefs.
You have both been given enough examples as to why a whole race or religion is held in contempt or suspicion because of a very bad few of the same group, WHY?
Because no-one not even you two know who the bad guys or criminals are amongst them, and secondly if you ever did find the guts to ask them a controversial question which would help identify the criminals or their particular political, religious or personal lean, they would lie if they felt the answer might compromise them, which due to their faith, it would.
If you were doing the same to Europeans you would have a better than average chance of picking the bad guys from the rest.
So just to clarify and narrow it down for you both as it seems you have trouble understanding simple information;
So, as we do know and believe that ALL Muslims are not murderers and rapists, and because their religion condones it, and we cannot identify, at face value, who these criminals are, and the rest of the GOOD Muslims won't tell us who they are, or identify them, THEN it is only natural, or human nature to be suspicious of the WHOLE race.
How's that do you finally get it NOW?
I can't for the life of me understand why you are so stubborn that you will not at least accept that what we are eluding to is based on truths that are a matter of record and history.
Your continual denial of the truth is only burying you both ever deeper in your own do-do and if you keep it up you will be so deep in it you will not be able to breathe, eventually, silence.

INDY,

Foxy's last post was meant as a joke.
HA, HA, HA, HA, HA........................................

ALTRAV,

You and others can choose to judge an entire group
of people by the actions of a few within their
ranks. That is what prejudiced people do. It does
not allow for individual differences.

I prefer to judge people as I find them.

Each of us has the moral choice of how we view things.

Not all Italians are members of the mafia. Not all Catholics
follow their religion in exactly the same way. Neither do
all Muslims. You do have a brain. Use it.

Foxy,

Yes at least we agree on one thing, I do have a brain and yes I use it.
Are you being deliberately obtuse or do you simply act dim?
Your example of the mafia is perfect, because EVERYONE knows who the mafia guys are, not just the wogs.
They stand out, where-as the scheming scum you insist on protecting and shielding are hiding somewhere within the flock.
Can you pick who the terrorist are amongst the Muslims?
No?
I didn't think so.
So until they are prepared to give them up, we must remain vigilant, and for some, that means suspicious of the unknown.
Don't argue with me, you are too naive, innocent and childlike and lacking in life's experiences for you to be discussing this subject.
So when you tell someone to go and see what the real world looks like out there, please go with them.

No Paul, my employment policy is not racist and I would not employ
you if you were a Moslem.
To accuse someone of racism without evidence is very poor manners.
That old escape clause, that it is only a small percentage, got worn out
many years ago.

When did you see a matrix of photos of those in the dock of 5x3 or
5x4 in an Australian court all up on rape and sex slavery charges.
Not since Bil Al I think.
It is known as "Modus Operandi".
It raises the question, do the cops here have
the same pressure put on them to avoid Islamaphobia charges ?

There has been another couple of UK similar lineups.
There are none so blind as those who will not see.

It does not allow for individual differences.
Foxy,
Yes, Islam does not allow for individual Muslims to oppose Shariah & to protest against the call to do away with the Infidels !

Bazz, I take it you would not employ a German as they are all Nazi's! Like those who want to tar all the people in China as being Communists. Is there a time limit on such bigotry? We could find excuses not to employ a whole range of people, for one reason or the other. Possibly ending up with only those like us, white Anglo-Saxon males, between 30 and 50, with blue eyes and blond hair.

Foxy wrote: "Compassion for the victims is felt very deeply.Hence the comments that followed and the objections to runner's comments."

Oh I must have missed those posts, so full of compassion.

Fun tho'..I reread the thread and still couldn't find any posts showing that compassion. There must be a problem in my system or perhaps glitch in the matrix.

Of course, its possible Foxy just made it up but who'd be so foolish as to do that when anyone could so easily check.

Paul,
the answer for you is simple, your excuse is worn out as irrelevant.
A Moslem will not deny those requirements of the Koran.
Nazism was not a religion, as emphatic as Islam is not a race !

It is not possible for you to wriggle your way around it.
As we saw just recently, they received the OK to break the Convirus rules
and have 400 people together for Eid several times a day.

Why ? Because the authorities were afraid they would react violently.
The police would not want to act because they would be accused of Islamaphobia.

Sorry to others this thread got off the track due to my comment, but
not quite unrelated.

According to one story, black Americans are having most of the rioting and damaging done in BLM disturbances done for them by young white idiots. How nice of these young white people to help out their black friends. Gap-spanning?

ALTRAV,

Prejudice is an irrational, inflexible, attitude
toward an entire category of people. It's always
rooted in generalisations and so ignores the
differences among individuals. Therefore someone who's
prejudiced against Muslims, Jews, Chinese, Indigenous
Australians, women, and many others, will have a
negative attitude towards these people in the firm
belief that they ALL share the same supposed traits.

Islam is one of the world's major religions. It claims
the allegiance of a fifth of the entire human population.
Many Westerners often think of Islam as an Arab religion.
Mos Muslims are not Arabs.

The largest Muslim populations are in Indonesia and India
and there are even large concentrations of Muslims in
China and the former Soviet Union.

Islam is the 2nd largest religion in Europe after
Christianity and it competes with Christianity
in many black African countries.

To paint them ALL with the same prejudiced brush when there
is linguistic and cultural differences is just pig-ignorant.

Over the past decades, religious fervor has erupted in the
Islamic world in general and in the Middle East in
particular. This fervor has been inspired by fundamentalism.
To many Westerners Islamic fundamentalism seems like an
almost scandalous return to medieval morality.

It conjures forth images of women behind veils, of adulterers
being stoned, of thieves having their hands cut off, of
public floggings and executions, of martyrdom in holy wars,
and in extreme cases, of political fanaticism exemplified in
aircraft hijackings and terrorist bombings.

This picture is rather distorted, for it is based on what
is newsworthy rather than what is typical.

What do any of us really know about the religion? How much
detail do we know about our own faiths and theology?
Let us look to ourselves before we condemn others - and
their behaviour.

mhaze,

The fact that you are unable to find compassion on this
forum does not surprise me at all.
Start with your own posts and see how far you get before
looking for faults in others.

Foxy,

once again YOU assume too much, and still incorrectly, as well.
YOU believe what YOU have written, that is clear and I get it.
YOU have made a generalisation, I can understand that too.
What YOU need to now understand and listen too once and for all is, I have repeatedly told you I do not hold the whole of a race, creed or religion responsible for the actions of a few mal vivants within.
In repeating myself, for the umpteenth time, 'the reason these entities are held or viewed with suspicion and such contempt is because the miscreants are well known to their friends, brethren and too many people to imagine them so isolated that they are not known and yet none of them will speak up and give them up'.
And so it is that the whole group are held in contempt or suspicion, because of the sins of a few bad ones amongst them.
Now this may be repulsive and abhorrent to YOU, but it helps those who feel strongly about this situation, to understand and move forward.
Until the guilty ones with venomous hearts and minds are brought to account and the killing of and focus on the "infidels" and non believers stops, there will not be normalising or acceptance of such groups and people.
This is human nature, the truth, not pretty, not what you want to believe, but unfortunately, what I have been trying to get through your thick skull for as long as I can remember, and this is NOT MY OPINION, it is that of the very people you charge with in-sighting hatred and rejection of these groups.
The "Infidels".

Well said Foxy, I totally agree. I have previously mentioned a Turkish mate of mine, over 30 years. He's Muslim as is his wife and their two daughters. When the kids were young, Hal would put up the Xmas tree. I said once, "What that? You're a Mussie" His answer; "Jesus, its Xmas Paul, my kids aren't going to miss out.... you having another scotch?" Hal is no more a danger to society than his cat is." It scratched me once.

If you were a Muslim or Chinese or whatever, would you want to work for a red necked racists anyway. After a week of his barbs and insults you might really want to kill him.

ttbn; "According to one story" me thinks you watch too much Fox News. And listen too much to Dangerous Doctor Donald.

Dear Paul,

Thank You. Your rationality as always is appreciated.

Unfortunately, the Murdoch press and other similar
media outlets are full of this illogical type of
hype.

The tendency of "collective blame" when the whole are
punished for the actions of a few is a trend currently
being seen in United States and European political
discourse.

To me there's nothing logical about condemning millions
of people who are spread across the globe and are
unrelated to each others except by religious tradition -
for the actions of a few.

We wouldn't blame all white people for the nutter who shot
at Muslims in New Zealand. And others like him who have
committed atrocities, killings, and bombings.We don't
blame all Catholics for child sexual abuse, or all
homosexuals for AIDS, or all Chinese for COVID -19, and
the list goes on.

Collective blame does not exist in a vacuum. It is
correlated with many other ideas and behaviours. Jews were
blamed for so much. As were other religious groups.
One has only to study history.

Also saying that Muslims do not speak up - is simply not true.
The Muslim communities and their organizations, as well as
Muslim leaders, have spoken
loudly - time and time again. They have come forward,
held meetings, appeared in the media, and made their
positions clear. They have done all that anyone could
possibly do - to condemn the actions of extremists.

It's a very disturbing trend that this sort of attitude is
still being espoused in today's day and age. Thankfully
by a very small minority.

Foxy & Paul1405,
Just be careful not to bite your tongue, there's no antivenene for you two.

individual,

In YOUR case it is better to bite your tongue
than to eat your words!

Foxy,

why do you ALWAYS deflect and go off on tangents?
I gave you specifics, you respond, actually you DID NOT respond, but moved sideways to make a half arsed attempt at a response.
I challenge you to respond directly to the comments YOU find so bad, inaccurate, reprehensible, or in short; WRONG, again according to YOU.
The only clear and un-ambiguous way to respond is to respond on each point, so that we all can see YOUR logic, and not generalisations.
And once more stop painting me as the villain.
I am but a messenger, relaying what IS, you on the other hand are a dreamer who only see's what is within yourself and what YOU would like things to be.
Unfortunately AND thankfully, the truth is nowhere to be found in YOUR version of the world.
Where-as my version IS of the REAL world, you know the one, the one we live in NOW!
I avoid mocking and bagging the messenger, unless I am forced to respond in kind, so please stick to, and critique the message.
I know it's hard for you, but give it a go anyway.

Foxy made a joke !
and it competes with Christianity
in many black African countries.

Yes, it does, but it has all the fire power !
Even the Nigerian army can't put the Moslem Boko Haram down.
It has not released all those girls it captured yet.

ALTRAV,

I have nothing more to say.
I have made my views quite clear.
You think you are correct. I think
you are not correct.

If you don't understand what I am saying - I
don't have the time or the inclination to
explain things to you

Bazz,

Boko Haram is a jihadist terrorist organisation.

And you surely know that. They have been condemned
by Muslims and -
by Muslim organisations all over the world.

Paul ! Paul ! Are you listening ?
Islam is not a RACE, NOT a RACE, got it ? Got it ?
If someone is opposed to Islam that does not mean they are a racist GOT IT ?

As for your Turkish friend, he is not a Moslem, ask a imman if someone
drinks alcohol, celebrates Christmas etc is a Moslem and you know as well
as I do that he will be condemned for Polytheism at the very least or
even an apostate which has a death penalty attached.
You probably just don't believe that but it does get applied in western
countries together with honor killings.
It is only our police, press and courts that makes it less common.
It does not seem to affected FGM however.

Go on deny it !

Dear Paul,

Ignore Bazz.

All he wants is a platform and an audience
for his anti-Muslim obsession.

Lets stick to
the topic of this discussion -
and let Bazz start his own thread if
he's that desperate. This discussion has been diverted
enough.

In the meantime lets ignore
him. Don't encourage his anti Muslim rants and raves.
Lets not add to the hatred. There's enough of that on
this forum as it is.

Foxy, yes of course they have been condemned, very quietly of course.
You have to search for it. However Iran has had no problem helping out.
Trump has caused difficulties for Iran's support for various groups so
unless someone else is helping Boko Haram will probably have supply problems.

There were reports of some US Special forces active in the area but it
seems to be very low key. Perhaps for training for Nigerian army.
Very sad to read about an attack on a church full of people and a 100 or so killed.
Almost most Sundays.
Makes Christchurch look like a minor event !

Foxy,

fine.
I therefor suggest you ignore my postings, PLEASE? as I labour at trying to reason with the unreasonable and comprehend the incomprehensible, not to mention trying to convince the inconvincible.
I realise now that you are set in your ways, and there-in lies the problem.
You are set in YOUR ways, and no-one is going to tell you anything, because YOU, and possibly those close to or around you, have been, as the local colloquial speak or language puts it; "pissing in your ear" in an inane attempt at shielding you from all the bad things out in the big wide world.
Doing so gives people an untrue and unrealistic view and impression to very immature and childlike emotionally vulnerable children and on to adulthood.
Foxy, as a matter of discovery and confirmation of your attitudes thus far, this is the general theme you have exhibited and explains a lot, finally giving answers to your particular and unique emotional status, and state of mind.

Foxy wrote: "The fact that you are unable to find compassion on this
forum does not surprise me at all."

Yes not surprising since I was the first and only person to suggest that compassion for the young victims might be in order. Everyone else immediately ran to their pro- and anti-Muslim corners.
Including the oh so compassionate Foxy.

I don't want to get into the whole pro- and anti- thing. People are talking at cross purposes. We have those who want to argue that, since they know a Mohomadian whose a nice bloke, that means all the other billion or so are okey-dokey. And they are opposed by those who think that the very large percentage of rotten apples spoils the whole bunch. Some are looking at the trees, some at the forest.

Just for erudition:

*45% of British Muslims agree that clerics preaching violence against the West represent "mainstream Islam".
*19% of Muslim-Americans say that violence is justified in order to make Sharia the law in the United States (66% disagree).
*25% of Muslim-Americans say that violence against Americans in the United States is justified as part of the "global Jihad (64% disagree).

Invite Mohomadians into your country and you invite a ready-made 5th column.

Oh and if you can't have compassion for the victims OF Mohamadians maybe you can have compassion for Muslims AS victims....

http://www.channel4.com/news/uyghurs-bussed-across-china-for-forced-labour-in-factories-new-footage

http://dailycaller.com/2020/07/23/china-uyghur-camps-irade-kashgary/

http://dailycaller.com/2020/07/13/sterilization-forced-abortion-and-mandatory-birth-control-inside-chinas-xinjiang-province/

_________________________________________________________________

As regards the origin of this thread and my assertion that the gap will never be closed since too many jobs and careers depend on it not closing, I came across this quote t'other day which is apropos...

"Nothing is so permanent as a temporary government program."

Milton Friedman

ALTRAV,

I take people as I find them.

I have lived and worked in several continents.

I have met and mixed with a variety of cultures,
religions, and people.

I consider myself very fortunate to have had those
experiences.

Humans are the most extraordinary creatures, and a
big part of me still wants to reach an even greater
understanding about who we are. Not because I need
to know more, necessarily, but because I am drawn
to the process of discovery.

Is someone asks what makes me happiest, it is never
anything I can quantify like a house or a possession
or something I can touch. It is the spirit of the
human being, which can fill me with more joy than
anything in the world.

And that's what I have learned on my journey, that my
spirit is uplifted by these encounters.

Yes, I have met some bad people along the way. But I
have also met some amazing souls, and their light fills
me.

Dear Bazz,

Whether its white supremacists, Chinese triads, Japanese
Yakuza, Italian mafia, Russian mafia, the IRA, just to
mention a few - the world is full of extremists,
fundamentalists, criminal organizations,
and religious fanatical organizations -
and of course no normal people support
them.

No one is expressing support for the terrorist
organization - Boko Haram.
However tarring all Muslims is not something that normal
people do either. Just as they don't tar - all white people,
Chinese people, Japanese people, Italian people, Australian
people - or
Irish or Russian people for the extremists and criminal
organizations within those groups.

We don't blame religions for what some do in their name.
We don't blame all Germans for what Hitler and his mob
did. We don't blame all Russians for what Stalin and his
mob did, and the list goes on. We don't blame the allies
for their war crimes - or hold them to account.

On Sunday I watched Lisa Wilkinson interview a truly'
incredible man, - Eddie Jaku - whose recently published
book, "The Happiest Man on Earth," is now available at
all good book shops.

The reason I bring up Eddie and his book is because
not only does Eddie turn 100 this year - but his
attitude to life is very appropriate to our discussion.
I would suggest people getting hold of this work. You
just may learn something from Eddie.

Eddie writes that - life can be beautiful if you make
it beautiful. It is up to you.

This was taken from the web - "Eddie Jaku always considered
himself a German first, a Jew second. He was proud of his
country. But all of that changed in November 1938, when he
was beaten, arrested, and taken to a concentration camp.

Over the next seven years, Eddie faced unimaginable
horrors every day, first in Buchenwald, then in Auschwitz,
then on a Nazi death march. He lost family, friends, his
country.

Because he survived, Eddie made a vow to smile every day.
He pays tribute to those who were lost by telling his
story, sharing his wisdom, by living his best possible
life. He carries no hatred in his heart - against the
German people or what was done to him. He now believes
he is the happiest man on earth.

This book is an ultimately hopeful memoir of how happiness
can be found even in the darkest hour.

We could all benefit from a read. Instead of continuing
to spread more hatred.

Thank you, Foxy, what a beautiful man ! He could even make Runner smile, or at least perk up a bit.

Joe

Foxy,

two fools met and a third decided to listen.
Why on earth would we want to hear about another person who is living a lie.
Between you Paul and your associates, you all put out enough fiction and fairy tales to write a book of your own.
First and foremost there is no way that guy is being honest, neither to himself nor the rest of society.
As for the book, it is a commercial venture, you know the type? the bottom line, money.
If he wrote something then put it out for free, say on the internet, I would be inclined to say he would appear to be getting his message out there through care and compassion for his fellow man.
The reason for the so called interview with that maggot, yes maggot, she earned that title for what she said and the way she attacked parents with boys accusing them of raping girls, again another journo maggot giving a much un-wanted, arrogant, and ignorant personal opinion.
Where was I?
Oh yeah, the so-called interview was a veiled and covert advertisement for his book.
You shmucks, always looking at everything with your personal and mis-guided view and never seeing the actual truth.
Think about it, if ANYONE of you/us had gone through what he claims to have gone though, would you/we be so magnanimous and forgiving?
Don't bother answering, if you dis-agree then you have an open mind.
If you agree, no-one cares, because when someone has been truly abused and so critically affected emotionally as I believe certain people here on OLO would be, there is no way anyone with even the most compassion and understanding, could EVER forgive and they certainly would not forget.
Forgetting about such atrocities would be the only genuine way of forgiving, but then it would not be forgiveness but forgetfulness.
By all means carry on, why start being objective and honest now.

Alt Rave,

Interesting rant. Perhaps you can join the dots between that and 'Closing the Gap 2.0'.

Frankly, I have little hope for closing any gaps unless the focus is on employment and education, the keys to the kingdom, as my wife titled one of her essays on Indigenous progress.

After all, Alt Rave - and Foxy too - after the War, what did migrants value most ? Employment: housing could come later. And for their kids, what did they value ? Education. Was it common for migrants to drive their kids with those goals ? Bloody oath.

Did they worry and bother about housing, etc.? Not primarily - I remember in the early fifties, out in Bass Hill, we (including a lot of 'Balts') all seemed to live in one-room shacks that our dads had thrown up on a paddock, often with no water, no electricity, no toilets. Decent housing came later. And it was vital that the kids worked hard on their schoolwork. Employment for the grown-ups, education for the kids.

In remote Indigenous communities, there is an added bonus: land. Certainly, across much of Indigenous-owned Australia, the land is pretty crap - except that most 'communities' have running water.

But at least down this way, there are 'communities' with thousands of acres of beautiful land. I used to drive my wife crazy by suggesting that a thousand Vietnamese could turn the twelve thousand acres of beautiful land that her 'community' owned, into a hundred viable projects in a year. A bit racist, in two ways ?

But of course, Aboriginal people had absolutely no experience of systematic farming. I think that the entire land rights movement (that we busted our arses on) was merely to get land back which OF COURSE had minerals under it - all land has minerals under it. And that means royalties.

Pity things didn't work out that way. No, no minerals. No, no royalties, at least down this way. Now, employment and education may be the only options.

Apart from lifelong welfare, of course.

Joe

Well it's taken me all morning to get over ALTRAV's
latest rant against Eddie Jaku, OAM. One of the
best-known faces in the Sydney Jewish Community.

I didn't think that I could be shocked by any of the
posts on this forum any more. But ALTRAV's rant against
Mr Jaku and Lisa Wilkinson - shocked me.

Mr Jaku (Jakubowitz), OAM, was integral in the
establishment of the Sydney Jewish Museum in 1992 and since
then he has volunteered at the Museum continuing to give
his time and heart to ensuring the lessons of the past are
passed on and that hatred of any group is not allowed to
spread.

Eddie turned 100 in April. He is a Holocaust survivor.
He has the number 172338 etched on his forearm from
Auschwitz. The horrors that he suffered are beyond belief.
Yet his aim is to send a message that will continue to
inspire positive change in future generations.

His campaign is to inspire people to do more for others and
their community and society at large, because he feels that
right now, the world needs more people doing good.

His campaign urges the next generation to think about their
impact jon the world and to create positive change.

ALTRAV does not understand any of this and questions Mr Jaku
whether he really is who he says he is. And he can't understand
how someone could forgive his enemies.

Yet ALTRAV says he was raised as a Roman Catholic? That can't
be true surely. Because didn't Jesus teach about forgiving
your enemies (turn the other cheek?) May be ALTRAV has his
own version of Christ's teachings. - Obviously, ALTRAV as
we hear all the time on this forum - he has his own - "Truth".

And only he knows what's right!

Sic!

Loudmouth,

have I not said previously, that instead of throwing money and benefits, even land, at the blacks AND greys, we should be leading and teaching them to, at least in the beginning, grow food, crops and start to have a real say in their own affairs by actually doing things like farming and agriculture, thereby demonstrating that they are willing and capable to become self sufficient, more independent and less reliant on the whites.
Maybe not, it's easier to just annoy the shite out of the white fellas till they get fed up and give in, that way they can have their cake and eat it too.
Joe I'm not sure where you got the impression I was referring to closing the gap other than my point was that disregarding what was discussed and presented, about this man's past, analysing his story, no thinking, mature adult could forgive nor forget what he purports to have gone through.
So if you were in his shoes and you were prepared to forgive and forget, I would still tell you, you are wrong to do so.

Foxy, as for your words of criticism and condemnation;
MOOT and IRRELEVANT!
When you decide to look at things rationally and with objectivity, come back to me with a clear response to what I said and not what YOU think I'm trying to say.
If the man has sold you on his rationale and motives, then that's your business, but until you or anyone else can prove my point as inconceivable, I would suggest curtailing the personal critique.
Can you say with absolute conviction that what I suggest is not conceivable?
And as for my religious beliefs HAH, consider yourself as just having been abused and put back in your rosy little box, because again, if you had the where-with-all to remember, I broadcast it long and loud that even though I was raised in the Catholic system, I rejected it for the million reasons I so carefully pointed out.
So stop it with the petulant little annoying child behaviour, you are losing face and cred.

ALTRAV referred to Lisa Wilkinson as a "maggot"
(his favourite term for powerful women).
Here's an appropriate ditty about "maggots" :

The maggots revenge.

The worms crawl In
The worms crawl Out
In your ears
And out your snout

They crawl in thin
And come out fat
They love to eat
And they won't scat

They'll eat your eyes
They'll eat your nose
They'll eat the jelly
Between your toes

Your stomach will turn
A slimy green
And puss will come out
Like whipping cream

You call women maggots
But they'll be in your bed
And they'll enjoy eating you
When you are dead!

The last laugh won't be yours.

ALTRAV,

Could you please explain to me why you are so
adamant against a man like Eddie Jaku?
Apart from the fact that he happens to be a
Holocaust survivor? What proof do you have that
he's lying about his life?

Foxy,

YOU may want to call them powerful women, I choose to call them maggots because I am referring to an ugly disgusting creature, that is repulsive to all who come into contact with them.
She like the rest of these 'look at moi' set are absolutely nothing to be held in any regard.
She lost all respect and was dragged over the coals because of that one fateful comment which set her persona well and truly in the rubbish bin where it belongs.
Whilst we have women who should be admired like Bettina Andt for her/their TRUE courage, even tolerating threats of death and even close to physical abuse, FROM WOMEN, (maggots) I will NOT tollerate some smarmy twat staring down the camera with a scowl and threatening face, making a pointed and directed attack at mothers to "tell their boys to stop raping girls"!
What a pig, or maggot or whatever garbage name one gives a garbage person like that.
Media personalities are not paid or instructed to give personal opinions.
IF they do they will suffer the consequences, which I know YOU are an avid advocate of, now how did you put it?
"Hate speech has consequences"? or do I have it wrong?
Perhaps you could actually be of use on this forum for once and quote me YOUR actual words so you won't have cause to accuse me of something.
Seeing as how they were YOUR words, and you were busting everyone's chops saying them so often, it should not be too hard to remember or quote them.
Oh and as for your lovely little poem, sadly again I think you missed the boat, you see all that it says in the poem, is exactly what can happen to you too!
I don't know about you but I've enjoyed having been eaten by women, and still do, so if that's what awaits me upon dying; WHOA, BRING IT ON!

Foxy,

if you read me again, you will find that I don't disbelieve him being a holocaust survivor.
My criticism is about firstly the fact that after someone has gone through what he and others have described as the treatment of Jews, I choose to and refuse to believe that they would forgive those that caused this tragedy to another human being, I would hate them till the day I died.
Now that is reasonable because the people who inflected these atrocities on him and other Jews were still alive and if he is still alive, so would there be some of the guilty ones left, and it is THOSE people I would hate till they died and beyond.
As for my other comments, I truly believe that this interview was in fact a veiled advertisement for his book.
Quite a normal or usual practice, not unusual to me anyway.
I have not, nor make any personal attacks on him or his story, only the fact that if he was truly trying to tell his story and not profit from it, he could have put it out there for free, like on the internet, but no, as I said the book is for sale then it is for profit or reward then it must be promoted and advertised.
If you care to use your researching skills I think you will find I'm right.
So recapping, I say nothing disparaging about him only sympathy for what he went through, and I believe the TV interview was to promote the book.
There, clear enough for you?

ALTRAV,

A couple of things:

1) Lisa Wilkinson's tearful monologue back in 2018
needs to be taken in context. It was on the vicious
rape and murder of Eurydice Dixon - a well known
and much loved personality.

Wilkinson got very emotional and when she said -
"Instead of telling our girls NOT to walk through
parks we should ALSO be telling our boys not to rape
them". What Lisa was referring to and talking about
was changing the behaviour in raising our children
not just girls, but boys as well, to prevent future
tragic deaths.

Lisa does not deserve to be called a "maggot".

2) Regarding your comments concerning Eddie Jaku, the
Holocaust survivor. You can now back-peddle all you want
however you did say Mr Jaku was living a lie, that there
was no way he was being honest neither to himself nor
the rest of society. That his book was a commercial
venture - that he published his book for money, That his
interview with Lisa Wilkinson was a vested and covert
advertisement for his book. You called me and Joe -
schmucks and that we looked at things misguidedly, not
seeing the actual truth. You questioned Mr Jaku's
integrity.

All rather reprehensible when all the man is trying to
achieve is a better world for us all. He turned 100 in
April. He does not need the money. He volunteers his
time and he does it all for free. Living a lie?
When he has his concentration number etched on his
forearm - 172338 from Auschwitz. And you question
whether he's been through what he says he's been through?

His aim is to send a message that will continue to inspire
positive change in future generations because he's seen
with his own eyes what hatred can do.

A shame he wasn't able to reach you.

Foxy,

stop reading your version of what I said.
I said he's living a lie because he should be angry with what happened and not forgive anyone.
That is also part of living a lie.
No one goes through what he went through and seeks to forgive his aggressors, that is what I mean by he's living a lie.
As for the book I already explained that if he truly wanted to spread the word and he doesn't need the money, then he would have put his story out there for free, like on the internet.
Now THAT'S how you help people.
I do not retract my opinion and comments about the maggot.
You can feel however you want about whoever you want, I look deeper than you and that's why you will never understand or agree with me.
And let me correct your lie.
The scene I related in my posting was embedded in my memory forever and let me stop you in your tracks by telling you I saw a very evil twisted aggressive maggot looking/glaring at me through the TV and you must be blind or wearing those stupid glasses again, because the face/person I saw was NOT tearful in any way shape or form.
Besides I have nothing good to say about your "much loved" arrogant fool who had been offered protection and be escorted by her boyfriend, but because she was another prize fool, she ended up exactly where she ended up.
And don't you dare try and make it anything but what it was, a stupid decision by an arrogant jumped up smart arse, and look where it got her.
It's exactly the same as a friend telling his drunk mate not to drive home and attempting to offer assistance so he can sleep it off, but the arrogant stupid fool drives off and kills someone.
Now that I could ALMOST forgive, because he was not a full quid, he was drunk and incapable of making cognisant and coherent decisions.
Where-as she was not drunk, so her decision was based on pride and arrogance.

ALTRAV,

1) It was from your words and your own post -
that I cited.

2) What you think Eddie Jaku should be and how in
your opinion he should act, or not forgive - has
nothing to do with the man and his behaviour.
He is not you. And your standards do not apply
to him.

3) Eddie Jaku is his own person. He lived his own life
and it is precisely because of what he lived
through that is the reasons he is doing what
he is doing today.

4) Eddie's book is on the internet.

Have a nice day.

Dear Foxy,

Eddie Jakubowicz has spent at least the last thirty years of his life doing valuable voluntary work.

I wonder if Alt Rave has ever done a day's voluntary work in his life.

Back to topic: could it be that one essential component of any attempt to Close the Gap is that the people themselves have to make an effort - first and foremost, to get their kids to school; secondly, to look for work themselves (at least, to provide their own kids with some sort of work-oriented role models) - and if there isn't any work in their 'community', then to move away temporarily to where the work is.

I can't believe that there isn't work in 'communities': the places are usually swarming with outsider bureaucrats and professionals, not to mention all sorts of tradespeople. Why can't local people aspire to take on those roles - and if not themselves, then their kids in a generation or so ? [Mind you, this has been discussed endlessly for fifty years].

As well: if you check out almost any remote 'community' on Google Earth, you will notice, maybe a kilometre out of town, the sewage ponds. So those communities have flush toilets; so they have running water; so they have the means to water vegetable gardens and orchards. In fact, they could probably open them up on the old sites where missionaries and bureaucrats operated earlier vegetable gardens and orchards.

Yes, that may be difficult to initiate since traditional Aboriginal society was a foraging society, not a farming society, and the latter requires a very different mind-set. But surely it's worth the effort ?

Cheers,

Joe

Dear Joe,

One thing that I am hopeful about is that the government
for the first time has developed 16 new "Closing the Gap"
targets. They have overhauled the old agreement and
have established new targets to address some of the most
pressing issues facing Indigenous Australians.

The government is supporting the initiatives led by
Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander communities to
address the priorities identified by those communities.

Hopefully this will make a difference. Ken Wyatt seems to
have the right approach - which will succeed where others
have failed in the past.

Again Thank You for your comments about Eddie Jaku.
He is a truly exceptional human being. And the people in
Sydney who gathered to hear him speak recently (over 6,000)
also agree.

loudmouth,

is doing voluntary work a basic requirement for assessing a person and their viability or as a valued member of society?
I can't recall if I have "ever done a voluntary day's work in my life", although I suspect I have.
What I do know is that because of my preference/love of working, whenever I am/was approached to contribute, mostly with my time, I have always responded and followed through with giving money, rather than my time.
Whether you or miss rosy cheeks like it or not everyone, charities or clubs and yes even people, prefer money more than anything else.
So shut up with your low brow innuendos and pathetic attempts at point scoring.
Based on that little bombshell, it gives me the right of reply.
Now I don't particularly care about Eddie watsisface and his plight because anyone in Europe around that time and Foxy knows exactly what I'm on about, were treated the same way.
My family were not exempt from the German machine/threat, they too had to escape, and family members were also killed and or mistreated and abused, so excuse me if I don't give a rats about just another whinging Jew who feels he was mistreated and feels the need to garner sympathy from a privileged and impressionable society and individuals who were not privy to such atrocities.
You can feel sorry for him, there is nothing wrong with that, but don't feel you have the right to criticise, if you or your loved ones, have not experienced any life threatening events such as he has recanted, where-as, I DO!
Foxy, he is his own person, just as I am my own person.
He gave his opinion of his events, I gave my opinion in response.
You just refuse to accept any other versions of life but your's.
SAD, VERY SAD!

ALTRAV,

Yes it is sad - very sad indeed.

But you are totally clueless as to
the reasons - why.

cont'd ...

Eddie Jaku contrary to your description is not
just "another whinging Jew".

His philosophy is that - life can be beautiful if
you make it beautiful, It is up to you.

He doesn't whinge at all. He's made a vow to smile
every day. And Shares his wisdom and lives the
best possible life. In fact he believes he is the
happiest man on earth.

[Deleted for profanity]

Foxy,

refering to your last posting.
HE believes he is the happiest man on earth!
Well I can direct you to places where there are MANY "happiest men on earth", their called mental institutions.
Listen, if you want to believe that he's the happiest man on earth, by all means join him in one of the many institutions.
If he wishes to forgive and forget the atrocities, the horrors that he himself has spoken of, he is allowed to, BUT, I will not allow it, as much as I want the whole mess to be forgotten and stop it being brought up again and again, I for one do not want to hear of it any more, and only mental deficients want to relive it again and again.
By keeping it in the public domain continually, having people refer to it, does not stop it from not happening again, in fact quite the opposite.
If he truly does not want it to happen again then I suggest he stop talking and writing about it, and in time it will be relegated to history where it belongs, never to be heard of again, now that's how you ensure that something/history will never be repeated.
Jesus Foxy, and other's how smart must you be to pander to such a painful memory?
I don't care how old he is, or whatever, I don't doubt for ione second that he's a nice guy, and I would like him, but just as you would care about someone you like/love, I would tell him to stop bringing up and propagating a most heinous act and time in history.

Alt Rave,

Strange: you were whingeing about Eddie Jaku having a forgiving nature, that HE should be whingeing, not forgiving. Now you have the cheek to call HIM a Whinger.

Look in the mirror once in a while. And despair.

Joe

Dear Joe,

Yes the "look in the mirror"is a good suggestion.

The mirror does not lie (and lucky for him it
doesn't laugh).

Part Aboriginal, Anthony Dillon, reminds us today that it is four years since Bill Leak’s cartoon of an Aboriginal policeman telling an Aboriginal father that he should teach his child personal responsibility brought screams of ‘racism’ from the usual mob. They couldn’t say why the advice was ‘racist’, and nothing much has changed in four years.

As Dillon says “ …. rent-a-crowds, BLM groupies and keyboard warriors are still …. profoundly reluctant to discuss child neglect and abuse in Aboriginal communities”.

No. They prefer to shriek about ‘evil’ white people and their failure to, magically, close a gap that, truth be known, they don’t want closed because it would not suit their agenda of division through identity politics.

I don't think that any of us can really speak on
behalf of our Indigenous people unless we've walked in
their shoes - be it about cartoons, jokes at their
expense or what goes on in their communities while we
comfortably live in our big cities.

That's why it is good that the government has decided to
listen to the people and the communities that are
affected badly and need help with solving issues like
abuse, alcoholism, domestic violence, incarceration,
health, employment, training and education, suicide, and
so on. The government has seen the need to support
initiatives led by Indigenous communities to
address the priorities identified by the communities.

I think that all of us would like to see some positive
results happen.

Hi Joe,

Just as a side, how much vegetable garden, growing a big verity, everything from pumpkins to carrots, do you think one woman in her thirties, and one girl child about 12 years old, attending school, could manage? Given good soil, very good rainfall, hand tools only, plus one very helpful horse, not much other help, permanent stream for hand watering, remember the good rainfall, flat bottom land. How about about 5 or 6 acres, if you knew what you were doing. Do you think that would be possible?

Paul,

5 or 6 acres ? No. Maybe not even one acre, hand-watered, hand-dug, etc. Maybe not even a quarter of an acre. Peasant farmers around the world, using only their own labour, rarely ever are able to manage more than five acres, except of course, in some form of rotation. But barely five acres at any one time, more commonly - if we're talking about land which is intensively cultivated - two acres.

But most Aboriginal 'communities' have vastly more land than that and also access to tractors, rotary hoes, enough gear to plough up a hundred acres in a day, no trouble. Do many Aboriginal 'communities' have that sort of land area available ? Certainly. Do they have running water ? Usually. Would they have sufficient funds for starting up, for seed, piping, plumbing bits and pieces, shovels, forks, wheelbarrows, etc. ? A thousand dollars ? Of course they do.

But what else is it that is necessary ? Hmmm, let me think. A tradition of gardening, cultivation, would help. But perhaps what is essential is a willingness to put effort in, perhaps from early in the morning until late in the afternoon. That's how farmers do it the world over, including Maori paruaru or kaipamu.

Where you find those ingredients, Paul, you may be able to initiate a garden. Good luck.

Joe

Paul,

Sorry, I missed the horse bit :). Yes, with a horse, you could probably cultivate five to ten acres. The medieval definition of an acre was the area of land that a person could plough up with a bullock in one day.

But with vegetable gardens, as your lovely wife could tell you, there are the matters of watering and weeding etc. You can't get your horse to do those things. There's fencing, repairing, sharpening tools, etc. - a lot of jobs not specifically related to growing.

So 1-2 acres for one person on his or her own; and 4-5 acres with the aid of a horse or bullock.

The 'communities' where we lived down in southern SA totalled around forty thousand acres. They all had running water - in fact, usually an unlimited water licence, free water. Perhaps half of all that land would be suitable for cultivating now.

So that's around twenty thousand acres. Using horses or bullocks, that could mean thousands of people could be supported on the labour of the people cultivating that much, four or five acres each. Using a couple of rotary hoes, at, say, a hundred acres ploughed each day, they could plough up and cultivate the lot. Or of course, half of it - ten thousand acres - and spell the rest. That could effectively support one or two hundred families.

And any agribusiness adviser worth her salt would be advising 'communities' to diversify, to capture as much of the production and distribution process as possible. For example if the 'community' was to grow grapes and stone-fruit, it could dry much of it and package and distribute it as dried fruit.

I wonder if remote northern 'communities' have ever thought of growing dates ?

Joe

In the pacific islands a 10 acre plot, all tilled by hand using slash & burn techniques will support a village of a couple of hundred very easily.

A 40 acre plantation of coconuts will produce 30 ton a month of copra once mature. Palm oil is even more productive. Perhaps that is something for our north to consider.

But remember the New Guinea experience. A 30 ton a month plantation, bought back from it's Oz planter owner & given as a going concern to the local villagers, will very quickly drop to 3 ton a month or less.

The attitudes of some peoples are different to ours, due perhaps to their life experience. We are, peoples & individuals, a product of our history after all, who is to say one is better than any other.

Hi Joe,

The wife tells me the watering, mostly for seedlings, was not such a problem. The creek ran on 3 sides in a "Ü" shape, plus the very high rainfall, wouldn't go a week without some rain. Never seen the need for a pump from the creek, didn't have to walk to far. Weeding was a constant job with the hoe. Always had about 1/3 of the garden fallow, more in winter, less in summer. The main job for the horse was dragging the flat mesh to get the ground ready. Other job was gathering the cow pats, often planted things with a handful of cow dung. Her Dad did look after the tools, when needed.

The mirror does not lie (and lucky for him it
doesn't laugh).
Foxy,
It does give a distorted picture though, what you see as right is actually left !

"Closing The Gap" whether an agreement or a just a label will not resolve the problems many have because all it does is keep racists smiling...

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