What is the measure to recognise who is Australian and who is UnAustralian? Can we say the Citizenship Certificate is the measure?

If we consider "Citizenship Certificate as measure of being Australian we face a problem: "there are people who get that certificate but not only they are not loyal to Australia but also in fact they are AGAINST Australia."

And if we don't consider "Citizenship Certificate" as the measure of being Australian , then what else can be considered? We cant say Australian born is the measure, we cant consider a particular race either. So what is the measure?

Who is Aussie? and who is NOT Aussie?
What is the DEFINITION for being aussie?

The concept of "australian" vs "unaustralian" is a dangerous one and entirely subjective.

For some people, australian == unquestioning support of the government, for others its the respect for the rule of law, yet others rely on racial definitions.

Personally I fall into the category that says being australian means having a respect for the rule of law, a fair go for ALL (regardless of race, religion, gender or sexual preference).

depends if you're a sheep, or a citizen. sheep live here, citizens participate in political society.

Hi DEMOS thanks for your comments
I've learned something from you , a new definition for Australian CITIZEN , I have never heard before. I will keep it in my mind:
1. Anyone who lives in Australia but doesn't participate in the political society is not Australian citizen (even if he/she is carrying citizen certificate) but is an animal, but not all different kinds of animals, no no , only sheep, only one kind of animal.

2. Anyone who participates in the political society is an Australian citizen. It doesn't matter how he/she is , it doesn't make difference that has citizenship or not, it doesn't matter how respectful for law is ... it doesn't matter ... only as long as he/she participate in political society then he/she is an Australian CITIZEN.

Thanks for your definition.
any other person has any suggest? any other idea?
any other measures for Australian Citizen?

If you don't post any definition, Demos definition might win in this sheep auction ... comm on quickly I wam waiting :)

JAMES SAID:

"Personally I fall into the category that says being australian means having a respect for the rule of law, a fair go for ALL (regardless of race, religion, gender or sexual preference)."

Now James. Does it occur to you that within that statement,(which sounds noble on the surface) there is contained some very serious difficulties.

1/ "Rule of Law" is fine.....but 'who' defines the law?

2/ Fair go for all.... but if one mans fair go is anothers 'licentiousness/injustice/cruelty/immorality' then... we have a problem.

3/ Due to the conflict between 2 above, and 1 the outcome is: the conflicting elements noted in '1 and 2' will work towards re-shaping the society such that 'their' laws and 'their' cultural practices reign supreme.

Now...lets use the example of Female Genital Mutilation.

Yes..its against the law.
Yes.. there are peopel who WOULD if they had the political clout MAKE it law for the rest of us, or at least make it legal.

Lets now touch on FREE SPEECH. The freedom to criticize and even mock practices or beliefs which we regard as stupid or evil.

I am one of those 'minority' groups who's beliefs are
-mocked,
-ridiculed,
-made fun of,
-derided,
-treated as if it were a psychological disorder,
-made the butt of jokes,

but when was the last time a Christian group tried to make a law preventing this?

by contrast, see THIS

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKUoxbR9mwA

So, the equilibrium of society and the rule of law, is inevitably established by the pressure or power of specific groups or combination of groups.

"Do for others what you would have them do for you" ..... which of course comes directly from the mouth of Jesus.

Not all societies are based on such ideas. In my view, you are taking the 'benefits' of what our Judao Christian cultural underpinnings have given us, and are running on the idea that they now don't matter and that abandoning them will have no serious impact on the future shape of our community.

D_Pox: "Who is Aussie? and who is NOT Aussie?
What is the DEFINITION for being aussie?"

Do you mean "Aussie" as opposed to "Australian"? I'm not sure they're quite the same thing...

Well, Boaz, this time I have to award you a big elephant stamp for your demonstration to the class of the art of obfuscation.

>>"[respect for the r]ule of Law" is fine.....but 'who' defines the law?<<

The people we elect to parliament define the law, Boaz, as if you didn't know. I presume you don't have a problem with that?

>>if one mans fair go is anothers 'licentiousness/injustice/cruelty/immorality' then... we have a problem.<<

Furphy. No definition of "giving someone a fair go" could possibly include any of the above. They are in fact the antithesis of a fair go, aren't they?

>>Due to the conflict between 2 above, and 1 the outcome is: the conflicting elements noted in '1 and 2' will work towards re-shaping the society such that 'their' laws and 'their' cultural practices reign supreme.<<

Who are "they", exactly, Boaz? And how do you work out that in the process bounded by rule of law on one side and a fair go on the other, can possibly allow "'their' laws and 'their' cultural practices reign supreme"?

It is simply scaremongering, isn't it, to suggest that the concepts of rule of law and a fair go can lead to...

>>Now...lets use the example of Female Genital Mutilation<<

And if that weren't enough, you follow with...

>>Yes..its against the law.
Yes.. there are peopel who WOULD if they had the political clout MAKE it law for the rest of us, or at least make it legal<<

But... it's against the law. And it cannot be described as "a fair go", can it?

So, un-Australian.

Where's the problem with that, Boaz?

Golly Pericles, it appears you have had your head in the sand for the past ..what.. 50 yrs ? (i.e. your age)...

Mate.. in all seriousness, are you blind ? Don't you recall...(at this point I could list umpteen examples, but one will suffice) the 'Ethnic Language on signs' saga ? (Marrickville)

Or..the 'ham sandwich fiasco' ?

By all means be willfully blind P, but don't make yourself look silly..please. I value your input here and continued self humiliation by you will not add to that experience :)

Yes..I'm poking at you a bit, but this time you deserve it.

As sooon as I mention the first syllable of 'us/them' you react... increasingly irrationally.

Show me ANY society where there is no 'us' and no 'them' ?
"They" happen to be any organized group. 'They' are the established mob to the minorities, or the minorities are 'them' to the established.

Are you seriously disputing the idea that there are elements of 'them' who are not seeking to overturn our existing foreign policy regarding the terrorist listing of Hamas military wing ?

Lets get our bearings. "We/Us" are those who have elected the present government, and subscribe more or less to the foreign policy as it is.
"They" are those fighting it. "They" are those who are on trial now for alleged terrorism. "They" are even organized crime.

But organized criminals who are linked to ideologies which span the world, are an extremely virrulent and dangerous form of 'them'.

"Measuring" Australian-ness would take us back to 'prevailing culture' territory which we have debated to the nth degree.

The Ham sandwich thing showed clearly that one groups 'fair go' directly meant the majorities 'unfair' go. Yet you don't get this?

P_Dox, first off; good to see you posting again so quickly in your own thread. IF you wish to state it; it would be good to see what YOU see as an Australian, and/or Aussie. As to my opinion; this will do very nicely.....:

The concept of "australian" vs "unaustralian" is a dangerous one and entirely subjective.

For some people, australian == unquestioning support of the government, for others its the respect for the rule of law, yet others rely on racial definitions.

Personally I fall into the category that says being australian means having a respect for the rule of law, a fair go for ALL (regardless of race, religion, gender or sexual preference).
Posted by James Purser, Sunday, 19 August 2007 2:24:29 PM

Did I expect it to be dissected by BOAZ?
Does a bear .hit in the woods?

Road signs? Ham sandwiches?

>>Mate.. in all seriousness, are you blind ? Don't you recall...(at this point I could list umpteen examples, but one will suffice) the 'Ethnic Language on signs' saga ? (Marrickville) Or..the 'ham sandwich fiasco'?<<

What, in the name of rationality, have these to do with Female Genital Mutilation (your capital letters)?

Your sense of perspective is significantly out of whack, Boaz. Start worrying about things that matter, how about it?

And the weakness of your argument cannot be disguised by cheap shots, either.

>>willfully blind... make yourself look silly... continued self humiliation... you react... increasingly irrationally.<<

But this is classic:

>>The Ham sandwich thing showed clearly that one groups 'fair go' directly meant the majorities 'unfair' go. Yet you don't get this?<<

The content of snacks has about as much relevance to the decay of Australianism as The Simpsons. Possibly far less.

Yes, I've always been grateful to Boazy for alerting us to the centrality of ham sandwiches to Australian culture.

All the more reason for him to adopt the slogan "NO TABBOULEH" instead of his existing one with Nazi overtones.

Or perhaps "NO HALAL, NO FELAFEL, NO TABBOULEH"?

Or "ONE BIGOT, ONE COMPUTER, MUCH BULLDUST"?

Any other suggestions?

CJ.. just wait till you see the signs.. a triangle with a "1" in the middle.. GREEN background... each side has a word left "culture".. right 'race' the bottom "NATION"

Should be good to distract the Green vote :) maybe confuse them ?

Perilous.. I'm pretty much resigned to the fact that you will only look up when a thermo nuclear device explodes within a 100 meters of you... You fail to see significance in Signage language or ham sandwiches,... why ? The COMMUNITIES were outraged you duffer, I'm just reflecting that widespread outrage mate... no need to argue with me.. argue with the citizens on the receiving end of this stuff.

Connection to FGM ? I wasn't really trying to connect them, other than they all symbolize the same thing.. "cultural intrusion"
You can add to them... the Taxi Drivers refusing guide dogs.. alchohol... tobaccco... it all adds up ... or have you forgotten to count ?

GO PAULINE....!

OFF TOPIC... kind of... I guess you could ask the Cherokee of America what to look out for in terms of 'cultural intrusion'... they might have a few clues...

that aside.. please listen to this BEAUTIFUL traditional Cherokee song, and be touched.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VqoxOcEqpk

You could also look at the images, of a people being displaced.. by another..... tragic in the extreme.

See these young princes... imagine what has overcome their people...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYH9U3wlY0k&mode=related&search=

They survive...but you can tell by the music that there are ghosts of humanity out there.. hundreds of thousands of them... here..is but a glimpse... of what happens when one people is overcome ..by another.
The Indians did not have a choice.... we do.

Australianism is decided by the laws made by the government who is voted in by a majority of Australians who like their policies. At the moment this means that all religions and cultures are allowed to exist in Australian society and their safety is protected by law.
However Australianism,(values and way of life) are not set.

In the future if an Australian majority are devout Muslim and they vote in a fundamentalist muslim government then Australian society and its values will be defined by that government and the laws they make. This could be to compel all Australians to live under shari law and wear robes and a non tolerance of other religions and cultures.

Australian culture and values is not set and is subject to change depending on those that hold power at any given time.

Boazy: "CJ.. just wait till you see the signs.. a triangle with a "1" in the middle.. GREEN background... each side has a word left "culture".. right 'race' the bottom "NATION"

Should be good to distract the Green vote"

There we were thinking you were an Open Brethren mouthpiece - that one's straight out of your cultish Exclusive Brethren cousins' tactics last election. Do you have special permission to use a computer?

CJ..is it ? I was not aware of this... amazing stuff...
I was actually in contact with an E.Breth the other day, and to my SHOCK HORROR.. he said "Hang on...I'm finishing an EEEEEEEE-mail" :)

The '1' (Nation,Culture,Race) thing is entirely original with me mate... The idea of the logo/sign is also original, but I have to confess inspiration for its appearance from the Greens. Politically I bitterly resent their intrustion into Australian politics, and their (in my view) degenerate, sleazy, disgusting, amoral, MIUAUG methods.
I expect nothing more from them that I would expect from Machievelli.

But... we are drifting here..back to TOPIC.

AUSTRALIAN-NESS... can only be measured by those who are most 'Australian'..and this would related to:

-Generation of habitation. (Minimum of 4th and can include indigenous)
-Being a Stake holder. (Significant assets)
-Proven record of reflecting our values in private and public life.

(I'm watching that jaw drop :)

-Not allowed for more than a proportional number of descendants of 'squatocracy'
-Inclusion of descendants of the Convicts.(At least equal to Squatocracy reps)
-Inclusion of those who were not on either of those historical extremes.

Hmmm lets call it a "House of Cultural Lords" ? *smile*

They would then form the Upper House in all states and at Federal level.
They would guard the direction of all policy areas which effect the cultural and foreign policy flavor of this country. They would have minimal influence on economic aspects, other than how they might effect the former.

What is the MEASURE for being Australian?
Having a pie and Beer at a footy game. Wearing anything you like. A bit of swearing and Aussie humour and telling anybody who doesnt like it to piss off to where they came from!
That ought to about do it.
The Eyes have it.
Ring the bells!

whomever adapts to the australian lifestyle most.

- layed back
- enjoys a good laugh
- the occasional drink
- friendliness