Is Tony Abbott, is Bronwyn Bishop, to name three, of those honoured in the Queens Birthday list, are they, and maybe others, deserving of recognition from their fellow Australians for past deeds. All three in some way are seen as divisive, disliked, even obnoxious, by large sections of the community. What does honouring high profile people who after all have in life done what they have wanted to do, is it reasonable?

Back in the day it was said a 10,000 pound donation to the Liberal Party would get you a knighthood from the Queen. Today rather than uniting Australia, honours for some seem to divide.

I see my nomination, Bill the plumber, for 50 years of devoted service to pipes, failed to make the list once again.

No.

Not in my Perception !

Paul1405,
I fully agree with you on that one !

Dear Paul,

Is Marcia Langton a Fit and Proper Person?

For what exactly?

To receive a meaningless - token gesture on Queen Elizabeth's
Birthday celebration in this country?

Actually implementing and establishing something positive
and concrete for her Indigenous People might have been
more apt.

But hey, you take what you can get right?

As for Mr Abbott and Ms Bishop? Well they really deserve it.
They've spent a lifetime bowing and scrapping
- and being supportive over these decades -
so who are we to criticize them.
Mr Abbott even wanted to grant a knighthood to Her Majesty's
husband (presumptious and delusional).
But that's another story.

Congratulations to them all!

It would be a jolly poor show to take the pomp and dare I
say it - the prestige, out of all this.

Dear Paul,

How about having "Honours" or recognition for
services rendered and achievement with more
Aussie oriented awards. Such as The Order of
The Kangaroo or The Wombat, or even The Koala,
or The Emu? Which relates more to Australia
rather than a foreign entity?

I'm sure most local would value it more.

How about a kind of "Darwin" award for senior Public Servants ?

Hi Foxy,

The question was purposely ambiguous, I could have said is anyone a fit and proper person to receive this kind of recognition. A few clues to my feelings on the GG/Queen, who is he/she to bestow so called honours in the first place. My reference to the 10,000 quid and Bob the plumber, that's shows just how silly I think such awards are. In a truly egalitarian society there is no need to be bestowing honours on anyone.

I picked Marcia Langton rather than one of the other two named, as she would appeal to our band of forum Usual Suspects as being unworthy, they might have wanted to rip her apart. I recall Marcia from way back in the day, always there, always fighting the good fight, will do anything in the fight for justice for her people.

Dear Paul,

I loved your opening post.

And I also was trying to stir things up a bit
with my comments.

However, I remember how my mum was hoping to make
it to the age of 100 so that she could get a letter
from the Queen. She liked and admired Queen Elizabeth
very much. She was a royalist through and through.
Mum didn't make it to 100.

I can therefore understand the honour that these awards
are to many people - and how much they mean to some.

Former Prime Minister Tony Abbott tweeted that he was
"very honoured". He of course received the top honour
of Companion of the Order of Australia (AC).

Prof. Marcia Langton said she was proud of the tertiary
education sector that she runs at Melbourne University but
that Australia has a "long way to go" drawing attention to
racism in Australia.

She also said that -

"I believe we're all one species and we all have the same
potentialities".

And -

"There are people who don't believe that and they
actually threaten our society, they threaten our democracy,
they threaten our health - racism has an enormous impact on
one's health".

I watched some of Q&A last night. I saw the ending where
a young Aboriginal man performed a monologue from a play
he'd written. It gave me goose-bumps.

I guess many of us have no idea of what it means to be
Aboriginal in this country and be discriminated against
because of our skin colour.

I've known discrimination growing up. I guess most
immigrants have. But at least most of us didn't stand
out like those who appear markedly different in their
appearance - be it Middle-Eastern, Asian, or black.

Dear Paul,

I still get a laugh when I recall the day my
husband and I spent waiting to be seen in a
large public hospital here in Melbourne. That
was prior to us getting private health cover.

Anyway, It was my husband who needed a doctor's
attention not me. Well, a nurse came out in to the
waiting room holding some sort of paperwork and
called out my husband's name and then because of
his "foreign" surname she asked rather loudly -

"DO YOU NEED AN INTERPRETER?"

My husband smiled at her and replied slowly and
succinctly in his Oxford English:

"Why doesn't the doctor speak English?"

A great moment that I remember to this day.

Hi Foxy,

Thanks for that story, it made me laugh. "Why doesn't the doctor speak English?" That a good reply.

One time in Fiji, a Fijian/Indian friend insisted we visit his brother-in-laws eatery for a curry. Well, after the intros and the offer of a meal, the wife was saying to me several times in Maori in front of the people, "PARU"!,"PARU"! The gent and his wife, our friends sister, were lovely people, on hearing that he said; "What is paru?". I replied, thinking quick; "Ahhhh... in Maori PARU means..... um, VERY NICE!" Which got lots of smiles from all. Then he said "Thank you", to his wife he said, "Our restaurant is PARU!" Glad they couldn't understand Maori. PARU means DIRTY.

Marcia Langton radiates excessive disunity ! In my opinion she is not fit to be involved in bridging any gaps ! In widening them yes but definitely not bridging !

I recall some utterly ignorant sheilah from some University phishing for information in a Cape York community but she simply just annoyed everyone. When a woman said to her "Ni wati paru" the Academic smiled back as she thought the woman said something nice. Little did she know that it meant ugly face/looking !

Dear Paul1405,

Of course she is. A proud warrior for not only her own people but all indigenous people of this land.

Every strength to her arm.

Abbott and Bishop in comparison are slimy, disingenuous, privileged pieces of odious political bastardry who should be consigned to the backwaters of the nearest sewerage pond where they belong. Why are you even mentioning them in the same breath? both disgraced and both right-wing trash of the worst order.

Talking about Prof. Marcia Langton.

It's worth mentioning her book:

"Welcome to Country: A travel Guide to Indigenous
Australia". I gave 2 copies as Christmas gifts
to my daughters-in-law. They're keen holiday
travellers. I thought they may visit places they
may not have known existed in their own country
and learn something along the way.

Also for anyone else interested in Indigenous peopl
and their experiences there's another great read in
"Growing Up Aboriginal in Australia", edited by Anita
Heiss. It's a collection of stories from Indigenous
writers of their experiences. A great read.

Talking about fit and proper persons:

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/nation/greens-activist-jonathan-peter-doig-arrested-over-alleged-child-sex-abuse-offences/news-story/cca6e47f36001cb9a1758bc666cd7b58

"A former Greens candidate who ran at last year’s federal election has been charged with three child sex abuse offences after the Australian Federal Police executed a warrant at the climate activist’s home in Sydney.

Greens member Jonathan Peter Doig, who ran in the southern Sydney seat of Cook against Scott Morrison, was arrested at his Gymea Bay home by AFP officers on Tuesday afternoon following a lengthy investigation.

Mr Doig will appear in Sydney’s Central Local Court on Wednesday accused of allegedly paying more than $120,000 over 10 years for child sex-abuse material, including the live-streaming of child abuse from The Philippines.

The 57-year-old was charged with procuring a child to engage in sexual activity outside Australia, using a carriage service to solicit child-abuse material and possessing child-abuse material obtained or accessed through a carriage service. The alleged offences carry maximum sentences of 15 years’ imprisonment.

An AFP spokesman confirmed a Sydney man had been arrested at his home as part of an ongoing investigation.

Police will allege the child sex-abuse offences were committed over a 10-year period and included possession of child-abuse material and soliciting child-abuse material via payments made to individuals overseas, known to be involved in producing live-streaming of child sex-abuse.

Mr Doig, who posted on Facebook in April about donations he made to support food relief in Manila, allegedly made financial transactions to beneficiaries, including minors.

The arrest of the former Greens candidate, who has posed in social media photos with Greens MPs, comes as law-enforcement agencies push for greater powers to detect sex offenders using encryption to hide in the dark web.

Mr Doig, who has lived at his Gymea Bay home since 1999, is a perennial Greens candidate running in state and federal elections.

The arrest came after The Australian last month revealed the AFP, Department of Home Affairs and Britain’s National Crime Agency had partnered with anti-child trafficking officers in Manila to bust a child sex-abuse racket and rescue three children who had been used for live-streaming of child rape."

Hi Steele,

Totally agree, the work of Marcia Langton for the cause she passionately supports has been exemplary over the last 40 years, as for Abbott and Bishop well the less said the better. Putting that to one side, my question is more, are these kind of awards, for anyone, warranted, particularly being doled out by the old gal from London through her sycophant on the ground here, the GG. I understand giving awards to a couple of worthless Liberal Party toadies would cheapen anything.

As you know, I try to make my posts non controversial, and never insulting to anyone, including the old gal from London, the Liberal Party, the Catholic Church, Dangerous Doctor Donald, The 'Usual Suspects' on the forum and anyone I've forgotten.

Dear Shadow Minister,

So no comment about Marcia Langton then? No comment either about Abbott and Bishop getting their gongs?

This came straight up when googling liberal candidates and child abuse.

http://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/former-liberal-candidate-investigated-over-sexual-abuse-of-children-20180829-p500h4.html

We could certainly go tit for tat if you like. There will be plenty of bad eggs we can highlight from any side of politics. But that would fall into your plan of deflecting from the topic wouldn't it.

the work of Marcia Langton for the cause she passionately supports has been exemplary over the last 40 years,
Paul1405,
40 years of talking & getting paid for it by us is exemplary ? That makes her no better than Abbott & Bishop in my book !
I have met several Marcia Langtons' in my time but have yet to see anything they have actually done that is still of use to their people. I bet she got paid a hell of a lot more for whingeing & bitching than many indigenous received for actual work of which we can still see the evidence today !
For me to respect her & her ilk requires more than just bitching !

Individual,

Prof Marcia Langton has dedicated her entire life to
Indigenous people. If you check on the web you will
find that Prof Langton - "... is known for her work
in several academic fields linked by her concern for
Indigenous rights, justice, and artistic expression.
She conducts anthropological work to support land
claims by Aboriginal people and their negotiations
with mining companies and the state".

Prof Langton has produced a large body of knowledge
in the areas of political and legal anthropology,
Indigenous agreements and engagements with the
mining industry, and Indigenous culture and art.

She has been recognised for her work and dedication.
And rightly so.

I've been keeping data on Indigenous higher education numbers for thirty years (which everybody here knows and it bores the sh!t out of them), but I can't recall Marcia ever getting in touch about them. She knew my wife fairly well, we bumped into her once at Adelaide Airport around 1998, but no, she's never expressed any interest in Indigenous student numbers. When she gets in touch, I'll express an opinion.

There seems to be an intriguing trend amongst the Indigenous education elites, that they have no interest in Indigenous undergraduate numbers (except, of course, their own relations) - but focus passionately, it seems, on Indigenous post-graduates, those whom they can cultivate and absorb into the elite.

I've always supported the opposite approach, to foster higher education amongst Indigenous people, try to ensure that they were prepared for study properly, guide them through their under-graduate courses to graduation - then they're on their way, it's up to them, if they can work their way through the employment agencies, which seem to rely on Indigenous 'advisors' from the elite.

With around a thousand new post-graduates each year now, trying to select, cultivate and absorb 'suitable' PGs (and to reject those whom they can't) into the elite must be getting complicated.

Joe

Individual,

BTW:

Didn't Tony Abbott and Bronwyn Bishop get paid and
receive all the parliamentary perks as well? And
what did they ever produce as a result of that?
Especially Ms Bishop.

Joe,

Prof Langton 's work should be applauded. She does what
she can in her areas of expertise for the Indigenous
people and leaves the rest to others working in those
fields. There's enough activists around.

As it is she's involved in Indigenous rights and justice for her
people.

Why do you always point out the negatives instead of
the positives
when it comes to our Indigenous people.

You're always on a roll.

Makes no sense.

Joe,

I think if Prof Langton was to walk on water -
your reaction would be -

"See she can't swim!"

Foxy...how about the "Order of the Raw Prawn" ? I worked with Marcia Langton at Charles Darwin Uni while she was in the Faculty of Indigenous Research (FIRE)...not a very nice person to deal with and very racist within herself. If I said "Marxist" would that mean anything? As for ex Fuhrer Abbott getting a gong, that really has been the last straw, I'll bet he's creaming his budgy smugglers now and "Wokka Wokka Bronnie"...yep defraud the Commonwealth and still get a gong...what a joke the whole charade has become. No decency left in the awards system which has become like a school yard. Turn up for a whole week and little Johnny gets an award AND a choccy frog to take home !

Joe, I am shocked! "I can't recall Marcia ever getting in touch" how remiss of her, probably too busy reading those thousands of pages of white honky controllers stuff, sorry evidence, you have on your web site!

Dear Paul,

I wish I had your posting skills.

Absolutely brilliant!

Foxy,

Neither can she walk on water as far as I'm aware :)

She's touted as an expert on Indigenous student support. One would have thought that if so, she would be interested in Indigenous student statistics ......

Maybe someone else is collected them as well, maybe Marcia herself. I hope so, I can't last forever :)

Joe

Joe,

Prof Marcia Langton holds the Foundation Chair in
Australian Indigenous Studies at the University of
Melbourne. In 2016 she became Dintinguished Professor
and in 2017 Associate Provost.

She has access to all sorts of
stats and data. I doubt if she needs your help
in finding anything.

No wonder she "didn't get in touch".

Very arrogant and presumptious of you that she would
or should.

Sorry, Foxy,

You're right, we should always respect authority.

Joe

Here's my two bobs worth, abolish awards altogether as they are meaningless.

Didn't Tony Abbott and Bronwyn Bishop get paid and
receive all the parliamentary perks as well? And
what did they ever produce as a result of that?
Especially Ms Bishop.
Foxy,
We got rid of them ! When will they get rid of her ?

Order of The Kangaroo - Sleeps around a lot, often hopping from one bed to the next.
Craves Adventure and danger, frequently jumping in front of a cars

Order of The Wombat: Lazy, cantankerous, set in their ways

Order of the Koala: Sleeps all day, spends most of its life off its face

Oder of the Emu: Runs at first sign of trouble, like to keep head in the sand

Joe,

You say that we should always respect authority?

Albert Einstein disagrees. He said:

"Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest
enemy of truth".

And in Prof. Langton's case she's being honoured for
what she's given - not what she's received.
Her dedication, knowledge, experience, expertise,
qualifications and merit earned - that has resulted in
respect and this award. Don't begrudge her.

Individual,

You ask,

When will they get rid of Prof. Langton?

She's to valuable - so probably when and if she retires.
But even then they will most likely encourage her to
stay on in some sort of advisory capacity. She's too
valuable to lose.

As for awards in general?

Those that say they meaningless - obviously have never
received any. They're meaningless - until you get one!

Armchair Critic,

This is for you:

The emus formed a football team
Up Walgett way
Their dark-brown sweaters were a dream
But kangaroos would sit and scream
To watch them play

"Now butterfingers" they would call
And such like names:
The emus couldn't hold the ball
- They had no hands - but hands aren't all
In football games

A match against the kangaroos
They played one day
The kangaroos were forced to choose
Some wallabies and wallaroos
That played in grey

The rules that in the West provail
Would shock the town
For when a kangaroo set sail
An emu jumped upon his tail
And fetched him down

A whistler duck as referee
Was not admired
He whistled so incessantly
The teams rebelled and up a tree
He soon retired

The old marsupial captain said
"It's do or die!"
So down the ground like fire he fled
And leaped above an emu's head
And scored a try

Then shouting, "Keep it on the toes!"
The emus came
Fierce as the flooded Bogan flows
They laid the foemen out in rows
And saved the game

On native peas and Darling pea
They dined that night
But one man was an absentee
The whistler duck - their referee -
Had taken flight.
(A.B. Banjo Paterson - "Furs and Feathers" ).

Just as well she grew up in a white fellows world. She would hardly have been allowed to speak if brought up in the blackfella's world.

She would hardly have been allowed to speak
runner,
I don't think Foxy would understand what you mean. Funnily enough, only this arvo I spoke with a mixed race mate who happened to mention very similar about some more white than black sheilah who proclaimed herself to be a mouthpiece for a Cape York group.
He said what you said ! Only ignorant non-indigenous academic types take her serious.

Hi Foxy,

I'm not one to say awards are necessarily meaningless, but when I see them awarded as favour then they are meaningless. We tend to restrict awards to the high profile, and forget the rest. There also seems to be a pecking order with these awards, as there was in the days of British honours. I can't be opposed to awards, it is my melancholy duty on the Forum to give out the PORKY AWARDS, be it only to Issy, but alas someone has to do the dirty jobs!

I'm told that one of Marcia Langton's greatest contributions to Aboriginal advancement was her brilliant paper against Male Genital Mutilation among Indigenous people and that it is closely followed by her writing [and advocacy] against the promising of girl children in marriage and underage consummation.

She is also a staunch advocate of Aboriginal people being given protection under Australian Law and freed from any Traditional Law, particularly in extra-judicial punishments and in the matters raised in her papers above.

Is Mise,
Isn't that totally against the culture that the Invaders destroyed ? Was Langton working for the invaders instead for her people ?

Is Mise,

On those grounds, I would support Marcia 100 %. I hope she persists in promoting those values and Indigenous women's rights.

Joe

Individual,

Your statement about Prof. Langton that:

"Only ignorant non-indigenous academic types take her
seriously," is wrong.

You obviously don't know much about academics.

An academic is a person who holds an advanced degree
such as a PhD and usually works as a lecturer, researcher,
at a university or scholarly institution of higher learning.

They can't be described as being ignorant, except by
ignorant people. And Prof. Langton holds the Foundation Chair
in Australian Indigenous Studies at the University of
Melbourne. In 2016 she became Distinguished Professor
and in 2017 Associate Provost. She is taken very seriously
not only by her colleagues but also by her students.

She's also taken seriously by her own people, and by
others she comes in contact with such as -
judges, lawyers, and others
within the judicial system. Including the media, political
commentators, journalists, and authors.

She fights for her people's rights and justice. She conducts
anthropological work to support land claims and helps
them in their negotiations with mining companies and the
states. She fights for women's rights. And the list goes on.

She has produced a large body of knowledge in the areas
of political and legal anthropology, Indigenous agreements
and engagements with the minerals industry, as well as
Indigenous culture and art.

Perhaps before posting it would be wiser for you to find
something out about the person you choose to try to demean.
Otherwise you'll end up looking ignorant yourself
and thinking people won't take you seriously.

I've been trying to find some reference to what I posted above about Marcia Langton but to no avail.

Could I have been led astray?

Foxy,
You just believe what you want to believe if it makes you fell good but if you ever get a chance to look at life outside indoctrination centres please take the opportunity !

hope she persists in promoting those values and Indigenous women's rights.
Loudmouth2,
The pre-invasion values or the ruined culture values of post invasion ?

Individual,

I have lived and worked in several continents, mixed
amongst different ethnic groups and cultures. Worked
for a variety of organisations, including private
and public companies and institutions of learning.
My experience has been rich, rewarding, and interesting.

What's your background? And qualifications?
I'll match mine with yours any day.

Individual,

As for the question of Prof. Langton's values?

You can usually tell a lot about a person by their
behaviour. And Prof. Langton's is beyond reproach.

But for your information - she was born 31st October 1951.
Making her 68 years of age. Her Aboriginal father had no
presence in her life. Her mother married a Scot. When Prof.
Langton was one year old. He was a Korean war veteran -
Douglas Langton. Prof. Langton lived and worked in
several countries - PNG, Japan, and North America.

Her qualifications are impeccable as is her expereince.
She's a real "hands-on"type of person.

As for what her values are? I think her work and actions
speak for themselves in her pursuit of Indigenous rights
and justice for her people. As do your actions and posts.

Kudos to her!

Shame on you!

And to think Foxy, she has done all that with only half a brain, according to one on here, Aboriginals lack brain capacity, as not proven from a quack in England, and her IQ of 85. According to another ding bat Aboriginals have an IQ average of 85, also unproven. Just imagine what she would have achieved if she was, say, white with that big brain and high IQ! (laugh).

her work and actions speak for themselves
Foxy,
As I haven't seen any of these I can only form my opinion of how she portrays herself in the Media & I fail to see anything impressive apart from her hatred of anyone white !
She is one of the many who accuse us of stereotyping the indigenous yet that is exactly what she & her ilk do with us at every excuse !
She rarely acknowledges the good many non-indigenous have been doing for generations & never acknowledges the lack of initiative of many of her people & blames us for that.
My guess is that she does not have as much support & appreciation from her people as some of the non-indigenous academics are trying to tell us !

Individual,

You seem to be selective in what you read and who
you listen to or are influenced by. Hence your opinion is understandable - though very narrow
and deserves to be ignored.

Foxy,
Is that so ?
How about providing some examples that are now evident as being a positive outcome of her "Work" ?
I'd love to be proven wrong for only seeing her as a stirrer & saboteur in the reconciliation process !

Individual,

http://www.womenaustralia.info/leaders/biogs/WLE0773b.htm

http://www.womenaustralia.info/biogs/AWE4416b.htm

This should clarify things for you.

Foxy,
Yeah, all nice & academic but what has she actually done ?

Individual,

What has she actually done?

Its all there in the links.

Read them.

Individual,

My husband says I should spell it out for you as
reading the links appears to be a difficulty for you.
Here goes:

Prof. Langton is more than an academic and teacher of
Indigenous studies. She's also an activist and has
achieved a great deal during her lifetime apart from
publishing a tremendous body of knowledge on Indigenous
issues and subjects, she has also:

1) Made a significant contribution to both government and
non-government policy and administration re- Indigenous
people.

2) During the 1970s she was active in the Women's Liberation
Movement drawing attention to the oppression of black women.

3) She continued her activism to work for Aboriginal causes and
became a key participant in the WIK Land Rights negotiations
which were conducted during the late 1990s.

4) She has appeared in both film and television portraying
strong Aboriginal characters - and advertising not only
the plight of her people but the strength of their characters.

5) She was made a Member of the Order of Australia for her
services as both an anthropologist but also as an advocate of
Aboriginal issues which she continues to do to this day.

There's more on the links I gave that explains her qualifications,
work, and activism. All you have to do is read.
I can't be responsible for your comprehension skills though.

Foxy,
yeah, drawing attention & talking is really doing a lot for people in need ! Plus getting top Dollar from us taxpayers !

SR,

It is telling that the only feeble counter you have to the decade long rampage of child abuse by a Greens federal candidate now charged for 3 offenses is a liberal candidate that was accused a year ago by a relative (probably wife) of child abuse and from which zero charges have arisen.

That Karel Solomon, also a Greens state candidate was charged for kiddie porn also trumps your innuendo.

As for Marcia Langton I can't be bothered to comment on obscure activist "academics". However, on Bishop and Abbot, both of whom have contributed greatly to Australian society and leave tremendous legacies, their awards are well deserved.

Individual,

You're spot on.

She didn't ride a bike and get paid for it, she didn't
volunteer to fight fires, she didn't sleep on the benches
of Parliament, she didn't have limo drivers drive her
around, she didn't have free air-travel or hotel
accommodation. In other words she wasn't as great as Tony
Abbott or Bronwyn Bishop who also got awards and were funded
by the taxpayers.

Foxy,
Is Langton of benefit to 'her' people ? I agree that our politicians are atrociously little value for the money they take off us & I put Langton into the same basket !
Many bureaucrats & indigenous also qualify for a place in that basket !

Shadow Minister,

I won't comment on Bronwyn Bishop's contribution to
Australian society, unless of course in your praise of her
you really mean to the Liberal Party. She says it all
every time she opens her mouth. Even her daughter finds
her an embarrassment.

However Tony Abbott's contribution?

Ben Pobjie, comedian and satirist sums Mr Abbott up so well:

"Abbott from the beginning of the Abbott regime, things
started to go sour, as the voting public began to suspect that
they had been the victims of an elaborate prank".

"Abbott was erratic, socially awkward, intolerant and
seemingly permanently just seconds away from snapping and
headbutting a public servant. His policies were frequently
disastrous, as he misread the public's willingness to vote
him into office as the expression of a nationwide desire to
exterminate the poor: whether medicine, education or
helicopters, the Abbott government seemed determined to make
everything as unaffordable as possible".

"To distract people from his unpopular policies, Abbott
adopted a strategy of convincing the entire country that
he had been drinking paint. To this end he decided that
awarding Prince Philip, the Duke of Edinburgh, a knighthood
would be a canny move".

"This clever gambit, which was insane in so many ways that
nobody could decide which one to focus one, momentarily
disoriented his enemies, but still there remained some
who believed the prime minster to be of sound enough mind
to merit a serious examination of his policies".

"These people were utterly flummoxed though, When Abbott
went on TV to eat a whole raw, unpeeled onion. This made
him the first Australian prime minister to publicly eat a
a whole onion, but the public found this a dubious
achievement at best. There was simply nowhere else to go".

"Tony Abbott had transcended politics and had entered the
realm of avant-garde conceptual performance art".

Foxy,
Yes, Abbott turned out to be real Goose, more suited to Labor than Liberal.
However, he hasn't left a fiscal mess as did all Labor PMs' !
On top of it all he had the very same problem as Morrison is facing, a Labor-heavy Public Service hellbent on filling their own pockets whist sabotaging the Govt's efforts to get back on track !

Individual,

You really need to get out more and shake the dust
off

...shake the dust off...
Foxy,
What & become like you ? No thanks !

Indy,

"getting top Dollar from us taxpayers !" Since you araldited yourself to the government titty those many moons ago. I suppose the US, in us taxpayers, is some euphemistic term to hide the fact you are sucking away at undeserved government la gras, like the rest of the old aged welfare mob. Another 750 undeserved dollars coming your way next month from us taxpayers. Stick that one in the bank on top of the millions the aged welfare frauds have in their accounts already. .

Individual,

Your insecurities are loud!

Another 750 undeserved dollars coming your way ...
Paul1405,
Cheers to that ! But still not as much as you get for being a stumbling block in the Public service !

Foxy,

Once again you post a puerile left whinge polemic as a reasonable assessment of TA. How about the abject failure that was Juliar who failed to achieve a single election promise and deliberately broke a few.

TA stopped the boats that Labor incompetence started, scrapped the odious carbon tax and started on putting the budget back in order. The reason the left whinge hate him so much is that he exposed Rudd's incompetence and Juliar's deceit.

BB served in Parliament for nearly 3 decades and was one of the foremost policy wonks that helped develop the policies that made the Howard years the most most prosperous in Aus History.

you araldited yourself to the government
Paul1405,
I invested long term in the Govt & now I'm getting the dividends ! I can't do a thing about your jealousy so, I'll just let you waffle on as is your usual !
You should try working for a living & you'll get dividends too !

Anyone found a reference to Marcia Langton's paper on Male Genital Mutilation?

Here's an example, just in case someone doesn't know what it means:

"In January,[2014] the ABC reported on an Aboriginal initiation ceremony involving circumcision in which three boys were injured. Below, Northern Land Council media officer Murray McLaughlin writes that the reporting smacked of value judgement and cultural superiority. The ABC's head of current affairs Bruce Belsham writes in defence of the investigation here."
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-03-06/mclaughlin-abc-circumcision-reports-were-culturally-insensitive/5301240

I wonder if the circumcisions were 'insensitive'.

And the key question: were they voluntary ?

And the follow-up key question: do young Aboriginal men have the same rights as other Australians not to be seized, abducted, and mutilated against their will ?

Of course, I'm presuming that this is what Prof. Langton was on about ? Equal rights ?

Joe

Shadow Minister,

Have you noticed that all of the politicians you mentioned above have something in common? They are all scumbag lawyers.

In social ranking lawyers always rank about 4/10 on the same level as car dealers. Why? Simply because they are seen by the public as dishonest and untrustworthy. I would put project home builders on the same level as those two. But the thing that sets lawyers apart from the other two is that they knowingly make an income out of the misery and misfortune of their fellow humans.

Misopinionated,

" ..... make an income out of the misery and misfortune of their fellow humans."

I'm relieved that you're not making any income out of inflicting 'misery and misfortune' on the rest of us.

Joe

LOUDmouth,

You're a bit ambiguous but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and take that as a compliment.

Paul,

It is not only Greens candidates that are kiddie fiddlers.

Disgraced former Labor MP and convicted paedophile Milton Orkopoulos has been arrested at Silverwater jail and charged with further child sex offences dating back to the 1990s.

Going back to Marcia Langton & the question of Fit & proper Person".
No-one can judge that however, is she fit & proper to be the mouthpiece of or rather against closing that gap, my answer is no. Why do I say that ? Well, because I perceive her as nothing more than a stirrer against anyone/anything white except the undeserved benefits !
I have yet to see her on TV asking her own people to state what they want once & for all so that we all can move on as a better society. I have yet to see her acknowledge that equal rights translates into equal responsibility. Once she does that I'll be fully supportive of her !
Those who don't want to live in such a society should be allowed to opt out & fend for themselves & among each other with only basic compassionate support from those whom they despise !

Individual,

So just because YOU haven't seen any evidence of
Prof Langton speaking and writing about Indigenous
people taking responsibility - you think she hasn't
done it. Obviously you have not watched her in
interviews on television or heard her on the panel
of shows like "Q&A".

Shadow Minister,

Why bring politics into someone's abhorrent behaviour?

What difference should it make to any of us which political
party a person belongs to if their behaviour - be it
child abuse or theft is abhorrent?

Judge the person not the party. Politics should not play
a part. There are rotten apples in each and every party.

Or is it all about "winning the game?" No matter
what it takes?

Foxy,
Q&A would be the lowest possible moral benchmark you could use to lift someone pro disharmony onto a pedestal !

Individual,

Opinions are like butt-holes.

We all have one.

Though some spew out more crap than others.

Shadow Minister,

That's right, if your throwing dirt around why don't you mention the Liberal Party candidate who is the subject of a police investigation over allegations he sexually assaulted two children. There are all in the same basket as far as I am concerned. You seem to have a fetish about these kiddie fiddlers, what's the go there?

You are rather gutless, prefer innuendo to straight out insult, that's your stock in trade. I can always cop straight out political name calling, do it myself, call me what you like in that regard. You have repeatedly posted snide comment about pedogreens as you like to call us, and address them to me, "Paul as a foremost member of the batshit crazy pedogreens" Posted by Shadow Minister, Sunday, 7 June 2020 3:46:39 AM, totally unrelated to the topic, not the first time you have used pedogreen, and directed it at me, and for only one reason. ITS OBVIOUS YOU ARE UNDERHANDEDLY INSINUATING I AM A PAEDOPHILE. Given the bloke who runs this site informed me he had zero tolerance for such behaviour. I see no action, but then again you are from the right side of politics, which may, or may not, work in your favour.

Though some spew out more crap than others.
Foxy,
Unlike you most people get rid of crap, you thrive in it !

Individual,

I don't "thrive" on crap.

On the contrary. Unlike you -

I expose it, disinfect it, and flush it.

You have a tendency to spread it around
and do harm.

You need to stop.

Paul,

Given that you love bringing up every case of Liberal impropriety, the fact that the labor and the pedogreens have a disproportionate No of kiddie fiddlers is a sign that you need to clean up your own act before throwing stones.

As for the claim that a lib candidate is under investigation, that also appears to be false, as the accusation against him was made a year ago and no charges have been laid but then facts were never your strong point.

SM,

I'm not interested in feeding your fetish for paedophiles!

All political parties have problems, self evident by the Labor Party turmoil in Victoria, LNP infighting in Queensland. Nazi's in the Nationals, One Nation and gun crazies, Greens and those that were seeking control in NSW.

I have met some rely good decent people from ALL political parties, Labor people, Liberal people, yes to your amazement even Greens, and a couple from the smaller parties, who you wouldn't think I would find as nice people. Fortunate I haven't met you, so the good people are with me, still in the ascendancy. Met a few grubs from all political parties, but as I said, yet to meet you.

Foxy,

"Judge the person not the party. Politics should not play
a part. There are rotten apples in each and every party."

Name one rotten apple in the Shooters, Farmers and Fishers Party.

"Name one rotten apple in the Shooters, Farmers and Fishers Party"

Issy, have you quit the party? You juicy little pink lady you. Any shooter, Hooter, fishfinger and fruitcake party apple that would do a deal with the bent bananas of One Nation is rotten to the core! Anyone who would advocate the wholesale ownership and use of guns is a rotten apple!

Hey Paul,

You might like this:

Knott and Shott got into a gun fight.
Knott was shot and Shott was not.
Therefore it was better to be Shott than Knott.

But what if the shot Shott shot didn't hit Knott
but Shott?

The the shot Shott shot - shot Shott.

And another one:

3 guys apply to join the FBI.

They go for the test one at a time.
The first one is given a gun and told to go into a
room and shoot his wife.
The man can't do it. So he's rejected.

The second man is also given a gun and told to
do the same thing - shoot his
wife. Well he can't do it either. He's rejected as well.

The third man is given a gun and told to do the exact same
thing. He takes the gun goes into the room and after a few
minutes comes out and says to the FBI agent.
" The gun wasn't loaded. I couldn't shoot her."

Then he adds, "So I strangled the bitch!"

Foxy,

Having made an idiotic observation you can't answer a question about it so you resort to a sexist 'joke'.

Paul,

I'm not ignoring you. so don't get off whatever you're on.

Paul,

If I had a fetish for pedophiles I would join the Catholic Church or the greens.

Shoddy Minister,

There you go again, banning on with your favourite subject, paedophiles, not healthy SM, its a worry!

I suggest you hum along with that ditty, 'Tie Me Kangaroo Down Sport', to clear any bad thoughts. If that don't work, try catching Archy Pell for a Confession. Remembering to stat with "Bless me Father for I have sinned....then you can spill your guts, and compare notes!

Paul,

The greens are not my favourite subject. Perhaps you and Jonathan Peter Doig should swap notes.

Shoddy Minister,

What a pissweak comeback, best you can do? There you go again preoccupied with paedophilia, is that all you post? One strange boy we have here!

Hey Paul,

Here's another joke you might enjoy:

Mahatma Gandhi often walked barefoot which produced an
impressive set of callouses on his feet. He also ate very
little making him rather frail and with his odd diet he
often suffered from bad breath.

This made him a super calloused fragile mystic hexed with
halitosis.

Name one rotten apple in the Shooters, Farmers and Fishers Party.

How about naming rotten Apples in the Leftist Parties ?

Would the 350 word limit be enough ?

Check out the list of political controversies
of Australia in Wikipedia.

The political party that comes out on top just
may surprise some.

Shoddy Minister,

Instead of concerning yourself with your favourite subject, why not comment on the economic train wreck the ScumO' government has unleashed on Australia. Massive debt, massive unemployment, massive business failures, these guys are total failures themselves as economic managers. Just as you would not accept the GFC for Labor as an excuse for their economic management, what is the excuse for these LNP dills.

Paul,

My favourite subject is puncturing the inflated hypocrisy of the pedogreens especially after your spiteful attacks on the Catholic Church when the greens are no better.

Considering that Australia is faring better than just about every country in the world both economically and in dealing with Corona, Morrison needs to apologise for nothing.

Highlighting the rampant sexual abuse of children in the Catholic Church is seen by the apologist as "spiteful attacks on the Catholic Church". Finding one case involving a Greens member, charged and as yet not convicted, he equates that to the dozens of Catholic clergy now dead, or rotting in prisons as " the greens are no better", what a minimalist attitude to Catholic child sex abuse over decades this bloke has. On his favourite subject Shadow Ministers track record on the forum, unfortunately for him, speaks for itself.

Paul,

"Highlighting the rampant sexual abuse of children in the Catholic Church is seen by the apologist as "spiteful attacks on the Catholic Church". Finding one case involving a Greens member, charged and as yet not convicted, he equates that to the dozens of Catholic clergy now dead, or rotting in prisons as " the greens are no better"..."

Spot on.

IM,

That you have ignorantly echoed the BS from a serial liar I believe reflects more on your gullibility than your morals.

Firstly in this thread, I have commented on 2 not 1 pedophile in the greens that have both been charged. The second of which has been under police surveillance from both overseas and Australia and has been charged with a multitude of the worst offenses committed over more than a decade for which Paul is desperately trying to defend making him the prime pedophile apologist.

Secondly, as an atheist who has no connection whatsoever with the church, I have never tried to defend the Catholic church's crimes but have taken issue with Paul's more extreme and obscene attacks not only on the church but on Catholics in general.

Given the complete lack of commentary by anyone in the Pedogreens and Pauls extertions to try and deny any connection between the multiple greens offenders and the party itself is a direct analogue with the denials by the Catholic church. The CC while having more offenders, also has proportionally more members over a much greater time.

SM,

I think you're right about Morrison and his prompt action against the Coronavirus: after all, what would be a measure of success - an outcome of barely 100 deaths against Trumpf's 118,000 and counting ?

Clearly, since 118,000 people HAVE died in the US from the disease, it isn't a fraud, not some sort of hoax, or conspiracy theory. So clearly some drastic action had to be taken against it here as in the US, and given that Morrison would have had the same information at about the same time as Trumpf, he took action and it paid off.

Thank Christ. Can't say the same for the US :(

Joe

Shoddy Minister,

Just to highlight your hypocrisy, you screamed injustice when Pell was convicted of child sex abuse. When Pell was cleared by the High Court, I said I accepted the ruling, full stop. Saying "spiteful attacks on the Catholic Church", if you limit the Catholic Church to the number of clergy who have offended, or have not delt with abuse appropriately, your man Pell has handled abuse inappropriately, call that spiteful if you like. To add the billions of Catholic laity are in noway responsible for the actions of the clergy. I have said that many times, there___ are___ good___ Catholics.

You first brought up a case of a person who 6 years beforehand, had been an unsuccessful candidate for the Greens at a local council election, not a state candidate as you claimed. At the time of his arrest he was not a financial member of the Greens, and had not been for a number of years. The story was carried by the Murdoch gutter press, its my understanding from others the case never proceed to court. The more recent one involves a bloke who has been charged, but as yet not convicted, where is your presumption of innocence. Something you applied to Pell even after he had been convicted.

There is only one reason you constantly pursue this nonsense YOU WANT TO TAR ME WITH YOUR PAEDOPHILE BRUSH. Gutless to say it, but do your slimy best to insinuate it. Its not working.

SM, as far as I am concerned I don't want to feed your preoccupation with paedophilia on the forum. On this thread, out of the blue, with no relationship to the topic at all, you started with it here; Posted by Shadow Minister, Wednesday, 10 June 2020 3:10:50 AM.

Prof Langton's been rather quiet lately ! Worn out from all these achievements perhaps ?

"spiteful attacks on the Catholic Church"

Well,
That's about the only option left to draw & keep attention on the insidious hypocrisy by the outfit that really doesn't do anything to help end suffering en masse.
When romp & pomp have more money & resources spent on them than the poor suffering then it becomes pretty obvious where the priorities of such outfits stand !
Don't want negative perception ? Don't give it !

Paul,

I never claimed that greens are pedophiles and while two ex electoral candidates have been arrested many greens are upright if somewhat deluded citizens. Note that the first candidate was caught in possession of child porn, and what exactly he was charged with was not reported and the second has been charged with multiple and varied sex offenses, both with substantially more solid evidence against them than was ever presented against Pell which never stopped you screaming his guilt.

That you are still defending the 2 pedogreens shows that you are no better than the Catholic church which you have continuously vilified.

As far as Pell goes I made it clear even during the first trial that due to the lack of evidence that I held no firm opinion of his actual guilt or innocence, but that on the weak evidence presented by the prosecution at his trial that there was insufficient evidence for a conviction, a opinion shared unanimously by all 7 of the high court judges.

Individual,

Professor Langton spoke on Aboriginal deaths in custody.
It was reported in the news reports the day before she
planned to march in the Black Lives Matter Melbourne
rally which called for an end to Aboriginal deaths in
custody and solidarity for the US protests.

She's also been very busy in her job as co-chair of a
senior advisory group convened by Indigenous Affairs
Minister Ken Wyatt designed to drive discussion on
giving Indigenous Australians a voice at all levels
of government. Then of course there's also her job as
foundation chair of Australian Indigenous Studies at
the University of Melbourne that's very time consuming.

Unlike you - she actually works and has a purpose in
life.

You're just a "key board warrior". Doing your stuff.
If it gives you a buzz - keep it up.

which called for an end to Aboriginal deaths in
custody
Foxy,
How ? Is she telling them not carry on in a manner that invariably gets them taken into custody ? Have you got any links related to her results ?
All I ever get to hear is talks & recommendations. What about results ?

Individual,

Any program to be achieved takes time and effort.
And negativity and criticism does not help.
All Prof. Langton can do is speak out, make
recommendations, and policy suggestions and
invite appropriate bodies and organisations
including governments to take actions. Miracles don't
happen over night.

You accuse her of not speaking out when in fact she
does much more than just speak out.

What have you ever done that has had an impact in
your lifetime for the community around you.
Her record speaks for itself.

I can't understand your continued attempts at trying
to demean her. As a previous public servant - you should
be well aware that change takes time and effort.
However, Prof. Langton is one person who does not give up.

So stick that in your pipe and smoke it!

Foxy,

Proportionally fewer indigenous people die in custody than non-Indigenous people. I had a yarn about this with Elliott Johnston when he was working up at Flinders Uni in the mid-nineties - he conducted the Royal Commission, you'd recall.

The commissioners knew this BEFORE the Royal Commission officially began. The problem isn't deaths in custody but so many Indigenous people in custody - nine or ten times their proportion of the population.

So the question becomes: are Indigenous people framed for offences they didn't commit ? Are they excessively penalised, much more than non-Indigenous people ? Or is it that some commit far more crimes ? And, from the advice of an Aboriginal lawyer, often from a very early age: this lawyer was instructed, at all costs, to get kids off, but some had twenty and thirty offences before the were fifteen, often for robbery of old ladies and for various spontaneous acts of aggression.

And as Jacinta Price points out, why is the Black-on-Black violence ignored ? Why are Aboriginal women thirty two times more likely to be in the Alice Springs Hospital because of domestic violence ? Is violence still a means of resolving issues in sections of Aboriginal society ?

It certainly was in the early days: missionaries recount such a resort to violence, of men against women, of sons against parents. In the SA Protector's letters, from the earliest days, he has to bring in barristers (free, at least to the suspects) to defend Aboriginal men who have beaten their wives to death, since it attracted the death penalty for non-Aboriginal criminals.

One bloke at Pt McLeay beat one wife to death and badly smashed the shoulder of another wife later. Men at Poonindie Mission near Port Lincoln occasionally beat the daylights out of their wives and were expelled. So yes, it certainly happened. As it does in most societies, of course.

Joe

So stick that in your pipe and smoke it!
Foxy,
Telling me off in the above manner is rather obviously more convenient for you instead of providing relevant valid information !
After all, cheap cop-outs are your specialty !

Shoddy Minister

"As far as Pell goes I made it clear even during the first trial that due to the lack of evidence that I held no firm opinion of his actual guilt or innocence, but that on the weak evidence presented by the prosecution at his trial that there was insufficient evidence for a conviction, that due to the lack of evidence that I held no firm opinion of his actual guilt or innocence, but that on the weak evidence presented by the prosecution at his trial that there was insufficient evidence for a conviction"

A blatant lie, you did not at anytime during Pell's first trial make any such assertion on this forum to that effect. The fact is during Pell's fist trial a suppression order was in place banning discussion of the trial. A topic submitted on that subject by me was rejected by the moderator for that reason. Do you want to retract your claim, as it is untrue.

Individual,

I keep providing you with information and references
I can't do any more. If you can't understand them
that's your problem.

I suspect that all you want is a fight - and for that either
talk to your kindred spirits on this forum or go to the pub.

Over and out.

Joe,

Many have claimed that fewer Indigenous people, per head
of prison population die in custody than do white people.

However the death rate per prisoner is only part of the
story. Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people are
10 times more likely to die in custody than non-Indigenous
people in Australia. It's not just about numbers. It's
about a record of systematic failure and neglect.

The numbers tell only part of the story. Their stories need
to be told.

There are 2 key parts to counting total deaths in custody.
Deaths in prison and deaths in police custody or during
police operations.

The rate of deaths in prison by Indigenous is well known,
but the rate for police custody is not. The key finding of
the Royal Commission was that Aboriginal people are more
likely to die in custody because they are arrested and
jailed at disproportionate rates. That remains as true in
2020 as it was in 1991.

An updated database - "Deaths Inside," given by The
Guardian that covers Indigenous Australian deaths in custody
2020 is worth taking a look at:

http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/jun/11/deaths-inside-how-we-track-indigenous-deaths-in-costody-and-why-we-do-it

cont'd ...

My apologies for the typo.

I'l try again:

http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/jun/11/deaths-inside-how-we-track-indigenous-deaths-in-custody-and-why-we-do-it

Joe,

Here's the database.

It has been updated and should be of interest to you:

http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/ng-interactive/2018/aug/28/deaths-inside-indigenous-australian-deaths-in-custody

Foxy,

What proportion of Indigenous deaths in custody vare the result of

*. natural causes, including old age and illness;

*. Black-on-Black violence;

*. suicide;

*. actions of police or prison staff.

I wonder how each of these factors fare, Indigenous vis-a-vis non-Indigenous ?

For all that, we can't get away from the inconvenient factors of offences committed and rate of incarceration.

Joe

Joe,

I gave you a data base to refer to.

Try it.

Thank you, Foxy. Very interesting data. Have you looked at the database yourself ?

Joe

Joe,

Take an intelligent guess.

Paul,

You caught me in a technical slip, I meant the first trial in which he was convicted. An error not a blatant lie like the many you make.

The claim that you made "you screamed injustice when Pell was convicted of child sex abuse." Was a blatant lie.

I reiterate, not all greens are pedophiles.

Joe, one things we should agree on is since the coppers in places like WA, Queensland, NT and elsewhere have mostly dropped their program of 'Aboriginal Assisted Suicide in Custody' you know, found hanging in the cell in the morning, numbers have evened out somewhat, CCTV will do it all the time. The fact is if you are an Aboriginal person, you are about 30 times more likely to die in police custody than a non-aboriginal person. Simply because as an Aboriginal person you are 30 times more likely to be in custody in the first place.

Simply because as an Aboriginal person you are 30 times more likely to be in custody in the first place.
Paul1405,
How is that ?

Paup,

Your last two sentences have a certain logical connection to them: thirty times as many people in custody or incarcerated - thirty times as many deaths in custody. I'd quibble with those ratios, but they don't actually suggest anything out of the ordinary.

The question surely is: why the hell are indigenous people - on your figures - committing thirty times as as many offences as non-Indigenous people, assuming that nobody is being fitted up ?

I had a good mate up on one community who turned out to have done two years for manslaughter. I asked him, carefully, about it and he just grinned. Young fellas there used to come down to the city, pinch a flash car and drive it back up before dumping it into the Murray. Great joke. And all of the wineries in the district had at some time been broken into by blokes from the community; one explained to me how and where they broke in; occasionally the blokes would be found by police under a tree half a mile away, passed out.

One lawyer acquaintance was grumbling to me about having to always get Aboriginal kids off any charges, including one fourteen-year-old who had twenty eight offences on his sheet. And i remember a young bloke in Yatala prison who wanted to be a lawyer when he got out; he was in for causing the death of an innocent motorist who he had run into on the wrong side of the road in a stolen car, fleeing a petrol station without paying. He's probably an elder by now, around fifty years old, perhaps on a legal rights committee. Maybe head of it.

Joe

A new development,

The Howard appointed, and mate of Abbott's, a flunky of the LNP, Dyson Heydon has been shown to be a serial sex abuser of women at the High Court of Australia. Heydon was honoured with an Companion of the Order of Australia, should someone shown to have engaged in grubby sexual behaviour be holding such an honour? In my view, certainly not!

Joe,

Yes, it is difficult for us white people to understand
the high rates of alcoholism, family violence and all
the problems associated with high rates of crime
amongst our Indigenous population.

Domestic violence, alcohol, drug abuse, - where does all
that come from?

Could it be - intergenerational family disfunction in
many Indigenous communities, lack of job skills and
employment opportunities impacting on them. Mental
health issues, that result in domestic violence,
alcohol, and drug abuse? Poor health doesn't help.

Additionally perhaps there could be factors like the
loss of cultural knowledge in many Indigenous communities
which may have disrupted traditional values and norms of
appropriate social behaviour being transferred from one
generation to the next.

I'm sure that as a researcher you could easily find answers
to your own questions. That after all is your area of
expertise.

All the rest of us can do is guess and of course put our own
spin onto things.

Joe,

My husband remembers arriving by bus in the evening
as a young lad and getting off at his bus stop
opposite a typical pub at pub closing time. In those
days pubs closed early. The foot path around the pub
being full of drunks looking for a fight or lying
on the pavement passed out.

This was a daily occurrence at all pubs in suburbia.
It was hard to avoid at closing time. It was interesting
to see lined up on window-sills a multitude of glasses
full of beer.

This was a typical scene of many Aussie neighbourhoods.

Our Indigenous people are not the only ones capable of
passing out after drinking. It seems to be a shared
Aussie tradition.

Paul1405 & Foxy,
Relevance please to the 30 times factor !

Individual,

Have a read of Paul's post and then try to work things
out for yourself. We're not here to understand things
for you. That's up to you.

Paul's post and then try to work things
out for yourself.
Foxy,
There is no answer/explanation in Paul's post, there never is, same as in yours.
All I asked is how he came to the conclusion of the 30 times factor.

Individual,

Then why are you asking me to explain?

Indy, here is a link to 'Creative Spirits', you can work it out for yourself. Aboriginals are mostly in jail for committing social crimes. They often commit offences associated with drunkenness, vagrancy, antisocial behaviour, domestic violence, petty theft, those kinds of things. Aboriginal people are more likely to be refused bail and receive a custodial sentence for the same crime than others, as they tend to be repeat offenders. There is a vicious circle when it comes to crime and our Indigenous brothers and sisters, we need to look at the root causes to stop the continuing high levels of imprisonment which does no one any good, the system as it is, is just not working. The lock em' up, throw away the key mentality simply leads to more crime, more prisons, a worse off society.

http://www.creativespirits.info/aboriginalculture/law/aboriginal-prison-rates

The lock em' up, throw away the key mentality simply leads to more crime, more prisons, a worse off society.
Paul1405,
And, who is in charge of that system ? Certainly not working class wage earners ! Those decision makers are highly educated Leftist Judges & Lawyers i.e. those whom you & Foxy in particular, hold in such high esteem !

Individual,

No more generalisations please.

Some evidence would give you more credibility.
Otherwise - its all just noise.

Some evidence would give you more credibility.
Foxy,
Are you asking that the decision makers are not all all highly educated ?

Individual,

No. All I am asking if for you to explain who
are the Leftist judges and lawyers that Paul
and I supposedly hold in high esteem are.

Hi Paul,

Perhaps Heydon should be shown to be a witch, i.e. given a trial. Then we can take him out and shoot him.

Foxy,

Yes, we do put our own spin on everything, don't we :)

You're getting warmer. I'm concerned by this vague factor of 'cultural loss' that you mentioned: I suspect that, from the earliest days, Aboriginal people were attracted to this bright new world which presented so many opportunities and yet challenges. But on the whole, the 'new world' was somewhat indifferent to them - if they wanted to do a bit of work, goodo, if not then a farmer or carter or ship's captain could get someone else. In that sense, Aboriginal people were, on the whole, ignored, overlooked by, but at the same time drawn in to, this new world.

Much of the traditional culture would have put on the back-burner, and imperceptibly faded for the younger people as it fell into disuse.
:

* Even the traditional methods of fishing would have given way to lines, hooks and easily-made nets; and hunting by spear would have been rapidly replaced by the use of guns (the use of which was never illegal, at least in SA).

* Women's work, gathering grass-seed, would quickly have been replaced by the reliable issue of flour, ready-made, a pound a day per person - or readily bought from every general store, and readily made into damper. Women must have been freed up from an enormous amount of work.

The point is that much of traditional culture, even language (since it was so strongly based on ritual, hunting and gathering), would have withered, apart from the 'kitchen-table' language. The basic ethos, the underlying and taken-for-granted principles may have been retained, the looking after, and sharing with, close relations, the focus on the present, etc. Aboriginal people in 'southern' country towns have evolved a sort of hybrid culture (and language) over the years, including practices which helped them get by and make use of their limited opportunities, and in a rather indifferent environment.

[TBC]

[continued]

And, over the last ten or fifteen years, with the collapsing of self-determination in 'southern' communities - at least here in SA - I fear that many Aboriginal people in country towns have really missed the boat - they are caught with few skills, nobody much to encourage them to gain skills, and with limited abilities to assist their kids in getting out of that welfare-oriented rut.

So few, if any, are finishing Year 12 or going on to trades or uni. In fact, I really fear that populations in rural areas are literally withering away - some are coming to the cities, but I suspect that rural birth-rates are much below replacement. So golden opportunities over the past fifty years have been frittered away.

Joe

Indy said,"Are you asking that the decision makers are not all all highly educated ?" Your favourite gal 'The Lovely Pauline', makes political decisions that effect all of us, and she's as tick as two bricks.

You also claim; "Those decision makers are highly educated Leftist Judges" Anther darling of you of the hard right is Dyson Heydon, loved by the misogynistic men of the Liberal Party, Howard and Abbott, to name but two. Seems however, hated as a dirty old sex abuser by his female coworkers down at the High Court. Heydon would fit in well with the Pell loving fraternity, all a bit of harmless slap and tickle, would you not say?

Joe,

Many Aboriginal communities and families fracture
and break down because they can't deal with their
current situations but also because many governments
have neglected basic services and infrastructure for
decades. There is such a mix of issues - going from
lack of services, little education, lack of medical
care, high unemployment, staff exhaustion, decaying
infrastructure, broken families, high crime rates,
ineffective government programs, clash of families.

The list goes on.

Trauma and disrespect for older generations, anger and loss,
younger generations with emotional or behavioural
difficulties, boredom. Dysfunction becomes normal.

The fact is its easy to expect community members to
overcome these challenges, to "change their tack".

The reality is that sometimes people can't and need help.

I wish that we could shift the shame - that they could
be taught that understanding what the problems are - is not
shameful but that hiding them is. I wish that they could be
educated in what is normal and what is not.

That they could be taught to clean their
communities - by restricting access to alcohol
and pornography. That there
could be a provision of law and order. That parenthood could
be taught.

Educate the kids to read and write. If need be put children
into functional families during school terms.

And lastly set up art and cultural centres which could be
the most powerful medicine - getting back to culture.

And give them emotional and social support.

Foxy,
I'll make it easier for you, just tell us how many non-Leftist uneducated Judges you know of !

Individual,

Lefties are in great demand - but there's a limited supply.

Also Lefties are far more likely to have IQs over 140.

Foxy,

It's a pity you didn't visit or work on an Indigenous community just a few years ago (perhaps still, in some cases) when they were chock-a-block with resources and services, far more than non-Indigenous villages of the same population.

One service I've never really experienced on an Indigenous community though: police stations. On my wife's community, set up as a Mission in 1859, there never was a police station: the nearest was set up at the nearby non-Indigenous town in 1953 - nearly a hundred years after the Mission was established. For all of that period, the nearest police station was thirty miles away.

From memory, on her community, apart from the new dairy, the farm had a number of tractors, a combine harvester, silos, about thirty miles of fencing, and actually three or four empty houses which had been inherited when various government agencies funded new land purchases. And a Pivot system, I forgot. And unlimited water licence. And of course, workshops, offices, a hall; a church (the one on the $ 50 note); a TAFE Centre, vehicles, etc., etc.

Plenty, plenty resources. Probably rusting, out in a remote paddock these days.

Joe

The Howard appointed, and mate of Abbott's, a flunky of the LNP, Dyson Heydon
Paul1405,
There's proof of my point ! Uni educated, no common sense.
btw, what Pauline Hanson policy has negatively impacted on our lives ?

Joe,

I may not have lived in an Aboriginal community back
then - but I do have a copy of "Growing up Aboriginal
in Australia" edited by Anita Heiss. An anthology of
stories from people who did.

Talking about books, there's another interesting one out -
"Living on Stolen Land" by Ambelin Kwaymullina.

It's a prose-styled look at our colonial-settler "present".

This book is the first of its kind to address and educate
a broad audience about the colonial contextual history
of Australia, in a highly original way.

It pulls apart the myths at the heart of our nationhood
and challenges Australia to come to terms with its
own past and its place within and on "Indigenous countries".

The title speaks to many First Nations truths; stolen lands,
sovereignties, time, decolonisation, First Nations
perspectives, systemic bias and other constructs that inform
our present discussions and ever expanding understanding.
This title is a timely, thought provoking and accessible
read.

There is no part of this place that was not
is not
cared for
loved
by an Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander nation
There are no trees
rivers
hills
stars
that were not
are not
someone's kin

Hi Joe,

"Perhaps Heydon should be shown to be a witch, i.e. given a trial. Then we can take him out and shoot him."

Come on Joe, if you can't get a fair trial down at the High Court, where else can you? After all they have all the legal apparatus necessary to conduct trials..., besides the wigs and gowns they have thumb screws, the rack, the iron maiden etc etc, to ensure trials are conducted in a most proper and impartial way. Just the other day a well known arch bishop was put on 'The Rack' and despite a bit of dislocation of the arms and legs he was voted 7 nil by the inquisitors, sorry judges, to be innocent of you know what. In my own case the court found me not guilty of a parking infringement despite applying the thumb screws for two days, can't get fairer than that.

BTW, The forums constitutional lawyers, we have several budding Dennis Denuto's here, will tell you, you can not be shot for witchcraft under the Australian Constitution! Our laweryers will tell you the penalty allowed by the founding fathers for witchcraft, section 127, subsection 13, is burning at the stake! With our fair and just constitution, the founding fathers didn't want to be seen as too harsh on the witches in our mist. Donlt know what we can do with black witches? They are not mentioned in the Constitution at all, although some are now seeking recognition of their trade in law. Maybe another trip to the High Court. What do you say?

Hi Foxy,

I could be wrong but I don't think Anita has ever lived on an Aboriginal community, so of course she's had to rely on second-hand accounts. Second-hand information can never rise above that limitation. And I WAS talking about hard reality, not soggy daydreams.

Hi Paul,

Yes, like anyone, Heydon is entitled to a trial. Then you can drag him out and burn him at the stake, perhaps draw and quarter him first.

Joe

Foxy,
In your perception, what is a Torres Strait Islander. How many generations does it take to be indigenous ?

Joe,

"Growing Up Aboriginal In Australia".

Anita Heiss is the editor.

The book is an anthology compiled by Anita Heiss and
it attempts to show case as many diverse voices,
experiences, and stories as possible.

Each account reveals the impacts of ways of life, and
on how people are treated daily in the community, the
education system, the workplace, and friendship
groups.

It's a brilliant collection of short memoirs from
Indigenous writers and highlights an enormous diversity
in the life stories of Aboriginal People in Australia
from those who grew up in middle class suburbs to those
in self determined communities, to those in missions and
reserves, to small communities in remote areas.

They're definitely not " soggy daydreams" as you describe.

They are hard reality but will challenge and impress
every reader who opens the book.

Individual,

You asked what is a Torres Strait Islander?

You could have Googled this for yourself.

According to the web:

Aborigines and Torres Strait Islanders refer to different
groups of peoples.

Aborigine refers to the original population of mainland
Australia.

Torres Strait Islander refers to the original people of the
274 islands located North of Australia in the Torres Strait.

The islands are part of the state of Queensland.
Etnically distinct from the Aboriginal people of the
rest of Australia. They are often grouped with them as
Indigenous Australians.

You also asked how many generations does it take to be
indigenous?

Again according to the web:

With generations of 25 years and each having 3 children
one Aborigine could account for 2,187 descendants over
7 generations.

Foxy,
Sadly, the Web has misled you substantially on this.
Re being indigenous;
Many are descendants of South Pacific Islanders some of whose forebears came here via very early Black Birding, the bulk came via appropriate working Visa.
I have personally seen such ledgers.
There is actually no such race as a Torres Strait Islander but since the islands have been colonised by South Pacific people for some 7000 years it is fair to now call them TSI.
btw. there are 134 islands of which 13 are inhabited.
The area has a very turbulent history which is fascinating reading but you have to filter the material as much has been distorted by professional historians who get funded by those who want history recorded as they want it rather than as it happened.

Individual,

There you go.

Glad you've been able to sort that out for yourself.

See you can do it without my help after all.

Foxy,
Cheers, it just goes to show that talking about something you know nothing about only exposes the ignorance that most academic background people try to hide with intellectual jargon !

Individual,

A bit of advice.

In life it is important to know when to stop
arguing with people and simply let them be
wrong.

Foxy,
I quite often do but you're an exception !

Individual,

Thank You. :-)