Is Mise,

I suggest you stick to topics you perhaps know something
about. Leave Indigenous people and their issues to
others to discuss. People who know what they're
talking about. Historians, researchers, authors, writers
who've studied the subject and issues involved. Librarians
with qualifications and years of expertise in delving
into subject matters, and so on.

Foxy,

I think that might have been an article of Dave's from 1994 :). I worked with him from 1981 at ASTEC (SACAE - Uni of SA), and my wife a bit later, until 2005.

I'm a bit concerned about your airy statement that " .... there was no agreement as to HOW this should be achieved NOR was there a framework within which this could occur."

Agreement amongst whom ? The people on the councils in the actual communities ? Or constant government intervention, leaning over the shoulders of the council members ? Of course, since every community had (and has) its unique nature, why should there be those sorts of top-down directives dictating how they should run their communities ? Do you understand that self-determination means just that, determination by the people themselves ?

I'm not suggesting that they always, or all that often, got it right, mistakes were made, but they were their mistakes to make. The whole point of self-determination is to (up to a point) leave it to the people to sort out what they want to do.

What you seem to be advocating (please excuse me if I'm wrong) is some sort of 'guided self-determination' which would never have ended. Yes, it certainly would have helped to have experienced consultants in agronomy, agribusiness, etc., perhaps a respected Aboriginal ombudsman-type figure, from the outset, perhaps from the mid- or late-sixties. Hindsight is a wonderful teacher.

And I have to say that very few academics have ever known enough about actual communities, how they are run, what their actual issues might be - maybe Fay Gale came closest, given her hands-on interaction with people on SA communities over sixty years. Very sadly mised, twelve years now.

Joe

Foxy,

Is Mise did anthropology at Sydney (apparently he was in the same class as me.)

I don't think it is a matter of him not knowing anything - he's just gone off the rails a bit.

Foxy,

"....Librarians with qualifications and years of expertise in delving
into subject matters, and so on."

as a qualified librarian perhaps you'd finally give us a reference, using your undoubted years of expertise on the quote below.
Otherwise, people might think that your remark
'...also symbolic of natural grace and beauty [kangaroos], two things that the British Empire had vowed to wipe off the face of the earth." is just racist claptrap or a deeprooted hatred for things British.

We await your feeble reply.

So, at the time of Federation, the kangaroo (and the emu) were put up there as our national emblems. Some deeprooted hatred.

I have great respect for librarians - as librarians. Some may have a lot of experience as well, out in the real world, in addition to their librarian expertise. Some may have academic and administrative experience as well. The late Denise Bradley started out as a librarian before becoming the VC at the UniSA and heading the 2007-2008 review of higher education.

But if academics generally (subject to the same proviso) are at one or two removes from actual Indigenous people, or communities, then librarians may be one extra step away from actual contact and first-hand knowledge. Hence, I suppose, their exaggerated respect for academics.

Of course, there may be people who are librarians (and academics) but also have deep, first-hand, constant and long-term knowledge and experience of Indigenous people - there's nothing stopping them. But they seem to be pretty thin on the ground.

Joe

Good Evening Joe,

I've answered your questions on the article discussion
earlier so I'll simply it short. You'll find the answers
to your questions in the David Roberts book already
cited, pages 259 - 260. They explain in more detail
regarding self-determination.

Anyway, there is so much information currently available
now in both State and National Libraries, as well as other
archival primary sources of documented accounts, oral
histories, et cetera that researchers, writers, historians
willing to look are able to find and verify the data they
are seeking.

I see no point in continuing our discussion. We keep
going over the same issues all to no avail.

I don't need your or any one else's validation. Lets
leave it at that.

Is Mise,

I've already given you references. Two in fact.
You brushed them aside despite the fact that both
referred to a whole list of other sources you could
refer to if you were really interested in the topic and
one of the articles was taken from Prof. Ken Gelder
and Dr Rachael Weaver's highly reputable book,
"The Colonial Kangaroo Hunt" published in March this year.
You regarded the links as merely "opinion pieces"
despite their verifiable sources. And stated my attempts
in trying to help you as "feeble".

Dear oh dear.

As for me "hating" the British?

Hardly. They're part and parcel of my family.

However stating historical facts about British colonisation
does not equate to "hatred" but - history.

Anyway, seeing as you obviously don't respect me and consider
my replies as "feeble". All I can do is politely suggest
you look for your answers elsewhere.

Your local library should be able to point you in the
right direction.

I shan't be responding to you any further on this matter.