Political scientist, Frank Salter, taking an interest in his 13 year old son’s online (state) education during the school shutdown, was privy to the son’s English teacher presenting parts of the NSW teaching of the subject. He found that one of the lessons had NOTHING to do with English.

Lesson 4 was actually a lesson in “identity politics”, requiring Year 8 students to “define and give examples” of social inequity, racism, segregation, ghettos, civil rights and slavery; plus researching the “victimhood” of American-Africans in the US (where else?).

Not one question was directed at literature, texts or poetry; all about politics and society, viewed from an “extremely ethnocentric and pessimistic” black-American perspective. No opposing views. No English.

There was also waffle about Australia’s “really dark history with racial discrimination and segregation”. And some objections to “indigenous” Australians 50 years and older being advised to stay home (China virus), whereas it was 70 years for “other” Australians.

In response to Dr. Salter’s objections made to the school, a deputy principal telephoned him to say that, while he sympathised, if the lessons were changed, the school might get ANOTHER visit from Aboriginal activists accusing them of racism. Nothing said about visa-bearing black African-American activists rocking up.

Instead of continuing to fund schools run by ultra-Marxist unions, (and outside activists, apparently) governments should be paying for vouchers so that parents an choose, if they wish, to put their kids through the private system, where academic results, not radical politics, are sought and taught.

'Lesson 4 was actually a lesson in “identity politics”, requiring Year 8 students to “define and give examples” of social inequity, racism, segregation, ghettos, civil rights and slavery; plus researching the “victimhood” of American-Africans in the US (where else?).'

straight from the Joe Biden textbook. If you don't vote for the corrupt democrats you are not black.

ttbn,
Most conservatives knew that all along but it's good you put it up for the Regressives & sexually challenged to read !
You never know, some of them might not have gone too far down the tube yet & it might shake them towards some common sense !

I totally sympathize with Frank Salter.

I feel thankful that my sons have turned out to be
independent analytical thinkers who were always
cynical about the attempted indoctrination within
the school system. Hopefully they will keep an eye
on what their children, our grandchildren will be
taught in the years ahead. Parent involvement in
their children's schools is essential.

Dear Foxy,

I had to look up who Frank Slater was. A Quadrant author it seems so I suspect he looks at these things through a hard right prisim.
http://quadrant.org.au/opinion/qed/2020/05/the-english-curriculums-comorbidity/

By his definition the Holocaust and the literature would also be a "not at all about English, and all about politics and society viewed from an extremely ethnocentric and pessimistic"...Jewish..." perspective. Students are not provided with opposed viewpoints."

Or if they were to study it the viewpoints of Holocaust deniers should be discussed as well?

Idiotic.

While the basic issue deserves some reflection this is a petulant piece by a petulant writer and hardly done in good faith.

Strange to see SR commenting, as he doesn't read my posts.

ttbn,
I bet he reads every post simply in the opportunistic hope of finding a loophole to get his 2 cents worth of contradiction in.
You obviously don't provide enough loopholes & so he simply doesn't comment !

Dear individual,

I don't comment as much as I use to because there is just so much inanity being posted here.

I mean look at this from you;

"Most conservatives knew that all along but it's good you put it up for the Regressives & sexually challenged to read !
You never know, some of them might not have gone too far down the tube yet & it might shake them towards some common sense !"

What on earth were you trying to communicate by inflicting it on the rest of us? Regressives and sexually challenged? It was about a year 8 English lesson for crying out loud.

Do you really expect me to drop everything and respond to such purile, off topic, claptrap? If I did that every time it reared its head on this forum I wouldn't have time to scratch myself.

The sad thing is that you now represent the middle of the road rightwinger on this site, just peeling off snide little remarks like you just did.

How about you attempt to give the rest of us something substantial to respond to. That would make a welcome change to the drivel you now almost exclusively serve up nowadays.

'Regressives and sexually challenged' indeed. Lift your game mate.

I've seen identity based material from prep level at schools. Very concerning. Thanks for raising the topic ttbn.

'Regressives and sexually challenged' indeed. Lift your game mate.
SteeleRedux,
Well, if you can come up with a more apt definition go right ahead ! As for 'inflicting it on the rest of us?'. Are you actually admitting you're against common sense ? But, you have no qualms about inflicting your warped mentality on those who pull their weight from which you benefit ?
None of us can do without those who perform for the benefit of all so, is it really too much to ask to contribute also ?

"I don't comment as much as I use (sic) to because there is just so much inanity being posted here". (SR)

Much less "inanity" since SR eased off with his own inane comments, I suggest. He still won't address his lie that he takes no notice of my posts, when it is quite clear that he does. Not that I care one way or the other. But, Graham Young is not the only one who sees SR is a dishonest person.

SR could not survive without his play-the-man nasty comments to everyone whom he disagrees with. Rarely does he front up with any of his own opinions; he just jumps on the opinions of others. Still, that's his problem. He has to live with himself

//Regressives & sexually challenged//

I think he's just jealous of those of us who can still get laid. Or at least, that's the only half-way sensible explanation I can think of.

Otherwise we just have to conclude that it's more nonsensical writing from a bloke who often seems to have trouble constructing sentences and paragraphs that make any kind of sense to English speakers. Perhaps he and Dr. Salter's son should take some remedial English lessons together.

I think a good education should cover all topics, including those of interest to the left and right.

In my experience at university, there is a heavy bias to the left where lecturers can lead students to agree with their own personal views.

On one occasion, I asked one of my tutorials whether they actually agreed with the lecturer, and virtually all said no.

This is wrong. A student should be challenged to defend his left or right, or whatever, position.

This latter approach is what I encouraged as a tutor at a few universities. I constantly told students, have your beliefs, but defend it and don't ignore the other sides.

runner, individual, CM,

There are two atrocities here: the hijacking of English when so many kids leave high school barely literate, at best; and the encouragement for kids to despise their ancestors and themselves, for being white. Bad things were done in the past. But nobody living today is responsible. If these things have to be discussed, history or social studies are the best areas for it.

Foxy,

Kids can only think for themselves if their parents encourage them to. It's been at least two generations since that happened; now infants are farmed off into the care of strangers. Parents are too busy or tired for serious discussions with their children. It's too late after the kids are 5 years old, and they move into 'big school' from what used to simply child care, but is now 'early learning', which is actually brainwashing.

I am sure the teachers will mark them in accordance to what is expected in terms of English language competency, although one has to hope your child has the right teacher.

Some of the trainee teachers i tutored locally were not competent in terms of writing.

I was talked out of failing one or two them with one student repeating the subject after failing previously.

Dear Steele,

Thank You for the Quadrant link.

It casts a totally different perspective onto things.

With regard to the standard of English that the citizens are expected to know.

I was given a lift to Inverell yesterday and there is a new sign by the highway,

"Just a few Ks over,
Say "yeah...Naa"

My driver said, "Does that mean Yes...No?"
"Well, I'll vote Yes" and he immediately accelerated to 120 and held that speed for the next twenty kilometres.
I relaxed and enjoyed the trip.

ttbn,

In our family parents have always been involved in
their children's education. Grand parents have also
been involved in helping with care and education.
Perhaps that's why my sons have turned out to be
independent analytical thinkers who were always
cynical about the attempted indoctrination within
the school system. We kept a close watch on what
our children were being taught - our sons are doing
the same with their children.

Books are very much a part of their lives, always have
been. I've read and encouraged reading in our family
always - as did my parents. My parents learned from
experience the importance of education. Material
things can be lost over night. It's what's in your
head that lasts.

Foxy,

Good for you. My family is the same. Unfortunately we are a rarity these days.

ttbn,

Thank You.

I'm glad to hear that your family is the same.

I thought the deputy's fear of a return of activists was a bit wet. Principals have the power to bar people from entering school grounds, including troublesome parents. Failure to observe a ban leads to police intervention and prosecution.

I also thought that it was the education department, overseen by the Minister, that set curricula, not blacktivists.

Foxy,

I forgot to ask. In what way did your examination of the Quadrant article put a "different light" on the matter?

I see parents at my kid's school, and I feel sorry for the kids that get little help from their parents.

Parents are probably as important as teachers.

My daughter knows all about communism and liberal democracy, and has learned a lot from You Tube, and my occasional lectures.

I wonder how many read Quadrant these days.

ttbn,

I'm not questioning the validity of Frank Salter's
concerns for his son's education. After reading the
man's letter - I would like to know more about the
curriculum and what it's purpose and aim was.
What did the curriculum hope to achieve and what
was its connection to the teaching of English?

SR,

Comparing those calling for alternate views to the teaching of a militant version of identity politics in an English language class to holocaust deniers is wildly excessive and more than a little anti semetic.

Given the position of trust that teachers have, using this privilege to espouse left whinge doctrine to a captive audience is contemptible.

Dear Shadow minister,

You write;

"Comparing those calling for alternate views to the teaching of a militant version of identity politics in an English language class to holocaust deniers is wildly excessive and more than a little anti semetic."

If that is what your obviously enfeebled brain took from what I had written then I seriously can't help you mate.

Not sure if Frank Salter, the so called political scientist, is a closet Nazi, or white supremacists, or something else, or just a father concerned about his child's education. The fuss is most likely not about the subject of English and what is being tough, but rather the fact such taboo subjects are being tough at all. The topics in question social inequity, racism, segregation, ghettos, civil rights, slavery, racial discrimination and segregation, along with many other social issues are very important and should form at some stage a vital part of the school curriculum and a child's education. These topics are generally seen as off limits by the blow hard's of the rabid right, we have some of them on the forum. Other than a cursory glance from a totally white European perspective in some ancient history class they would prefer these things not to be broached at all. As part of sociology teaching they deserve critical and in depth study and analyse by students if they are to receive a fully rounded education. When and where that should take place is best left to the educators.

Literature is not written in a vacuum devoid of politics and controversial material. Great writers have written of social injustice. Charles Dickens wrote of the exploitation of the poor, of child labour and of the chicanery of the law. The lesson might have everything to do with English. The fact is Australia has a dark history, and the USA has a dark history. American and Australian authors have written of the dark history of their countries, and a student of English should be aware of those writers and their works.

SR,

Identity politics is a point of view that is open for debate, that the holocaust occurred is a fact challenged exclusively by racist and anti semite persons and organisations.

The issue is activist teachers using their position of authority to teach far left ideology as fact. Just as I took issue with my daughter's year 1 teacher discussing creationism and describing evolution as only a theory, I object to left whinge activists trying to indoctrinate rather than educate children.

//describing evolution as only a theory//

It IS a theory. I really wish science classes in this country would devote more time to teaching on the nature of the scientific method. Most people just fundamentally don't understand it.

//Identity politics is a point of view that is open for debate//

Are you trying to claim that the notion that Africa-Americans have been subject to slavery, segregation, civil rights abuses and racism are 'open to debate'?

OK, David Irving. That doesn't make you sound like a crazy person at all.

Toni,

"//describing evolution as only a theory//

It IS a theory. I really wish science classes in this country would devote more time to teaching on the nature of the scientific method. Most people just fundamentally don't understand it."

That's worth repeating, hence the full quote.

With you 100% on that.

An exercise in English class to write something from another point of view requires one to research the background of the other person - the social conditions that made the person what he or she is. It will help to create understanding of what writers do. It seems a proper exercise in English to “define and give examples” of social inequity, racism, segregation, ghettos, civil rights and slavery; plus researching the “victimhood” of American-Africans in the US (where else?). Victimhood is put in quotes as though it is imagined. Human slavery is real victimhood, and the effects are felt in succeeding generations in the descendants of the slaves, the descendants of the slavers and those who are the descendants of both.

davidF,

Sociology and history are also literary subjects also. There is ample opportunity for essays there, particular as they pertain to the relevant subjects.

individual,

You say, "You obviously don't provide enough loopholes & so he simply doesn't comment !".

Maybe so. But all SR does is name other posters and attack them, most recently telling another poster he has an "enfeebled brain" - cheap and nasty stuff instead of just clearly stating views opposite to the ones he disagrees with. We all 'lose it' occasionally and have a go at someone, but SR does it all the time. He can't express an opinion without abusing someone.

In my experience, SR is very close to sociopathy, if not already there. And the more people respond to his nastiness to them, the more he will keep it up. He is not cutting back on his nasty comments because of any "inanity" on our part; he is cutting back because posters are gradually seeing that responding to him only encourages more of his bile.

Up front, without hesitation, he shot the messenger for being what he perceived as some right wing nasty without any reference to the article the man wrote. And he threw in the emotive word 'Holocaust', which was not mentioned, and had nothing whatsoever to do with Dr. Salter's article or subject. He also 'had to look up' Salter, another one of his sneering put downs for a well-credentialed person he hadn't heard of.

It's very likely that, on some sites, SR would be banned. Here, he serves as an example of how not to behave.

Tony,

The term "only a theory" as used by creationists is to dismiss the theory of evolution as whimsical as opposed to the "fact" of creation.
That evolution is theory does not put it in the same basket as for example the theory that the earth is flat, it is backed up with thousands of dated fossil records etc and as such is accepted as the only credible theory.

Secondly, the quadrant essay included:

"The example you give to the class is the Federal Government’s recent lock-down policies to contain the COVID-19 virus. You note that Aborigines are asked to stay at home if they are 50 years or older, but other Australians only when they are 70 or more. The cause of this difference, you say, is great racial or social inequality, which is shameful for Australia. No reference is made to causes that lie within indigenous communities. All the causes are matters of shame for Australia."

That is a matter of opinion which is up for debate. That slavery existed is not up for debate, but that it was only blacks that were enslaved or that everything in the US and Australia is defined by racism is also up for debate.

Finally the first issue raised is why is this being taught in an English language class instead of a history class? Maybe then we should do transgender rights in maths classes?

ttbn,

You are in no position to criticize the postings of
Steel or anyone else. Your own posting record is dismal -
and has more attacks on others than there are arses on toilet seats.
Best to not point fingers. Not with your record on this
forum.

Yes, Miss. Whatever you say Miss. You are the female version of Stale Reflux, so you would say that. You are not as rude, but you are always attacking and nagging posters by name instead of just making your own point, and leaving it at that. Nobody has been changed by anything you and your misanthropic mate have come up with. You make a really awful couple.

Hi Foxy and Steele, I don't think ttbn likes you. I hope you are not losing any sleep over it? Gee, he once insulted me, and I was grieved for a month! Well until he apologised profusely as he always does.

Who does this remind you of?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drAsq2NvJv8

//Finally the first issue raised is why is this being taught in an English language class instead of a history class?//

Oh, I'm totally with you there. It's subject matter which is obviously more suited to a modern history class, which I believe is still a compulsory subject for junior high school students. It's interesting to note when I was at school, the English teachers and the History teachers were in different faculties and did not teach other's subjects. But I get to meet plenty of teachers in my line of work, and these days they all seem to teach more than one subject - I've met a number that teach both English and History.

I suspect this cross-discipline approach may be causing the blurring of the traditionally rigid lines between some subjects. Although to be fair, that was already happening even back when I was at school. I recall that we got taught drama in English lessons, and science in geography, and IT in maths... what a world, eh? I would have to say the subjects which tended to be the most compartmentalised and just stuck to one thing were the less traditionally academic subjects: woodwork, metalwork, PE, cooking, sewing.

All that being said, it's fairly clear from the tone of the article that Dr. Salter was not so much outraged that history was being taught in and English lesson as that it was being taught at all.

Toni, I have another brilliant idea, let me run it past you. Slavery should be taught in PE, the burning at the stake in cooking and religious intolerance belongs with woodworking. If you get my drift.

ttbn,

There you go again - proving my point.

Naughty boy!

Toni,

I think that if you read the link to the article you will see that Dr Salter deals with the issue of cross linking of subjects specifically citing the value of political oratory in English. However, he takes issue with the fact that most of it has no relevance to the English course that his daughter is meant to be studying.

While I agree that this was more suitable for a history course, the second issue is the uncritical way identity politics is taught in schools.

PS. Just ignore the resident troll

Shadow Minister and others,

David F., has raised excellent and very valid
points on page 6 of this discussion when he pointed
out to us:

"An exercise in English class to write something from
another point of view requires one to research the
background of the other person - the social conditions
that made the person what he or she was."

"It will help to create understanding of what writers
do. It seems a proper exercise in English to "define
and give examples" of social inequality, racism,
segregation, ghettos, civil rights, and slavery plus
researching the "victimhood" of American-Africans in
the US (where else?)."

"Victimhood is put in quotes as though it is imagined.
Human slavery is real victimhood and the effects are felt
in succeeding generations in the descendents of the
slaves, the descendents of the slaves and those who are
the descendents of both".

The condition of England novels - writers like Charles
Dickens, Elizabeth Gaskell, Charlotte Bronte to name
just a few, illuminated contemporary social problems
through detailed descriptions of poverty and inequality.

Something worth thinking about and discussing.
Broadening our outlooks.

//However, he takes issue with the fact that most of it has no relevance to the English course//

Since when did high school English lessons teach anything that is any way relevant? That's not what English lessons are for; English lessons are there to punish those who learnt to read back in primary school by making them sit through class readings of Shakespeare, read by classmates who struggle with modern day English. Or making them watch 'The Cars that Ate Paris', one of the worst films in cinematic history, over and over again because you think Peter Weir is a visionary director despite having seen his movies. Little wonder that English teachers have to cast around so desperately for stuff to pad out the curriculum with, because they sure as hell don't teach spelling and grammar.

//the second issue is the uncritical way identity politics is taught in schools.//

A school's job is to educate. Of course students should hear arguments both for and against racism and then test those arguments to see which hold merit... and which do not.

Dear davidf,

It would be remiss of me not to mention Swift in this context. His works were deeply wedded to the politics of the day.

A prime example is;

A Modest Proposal - For preventing the children of poor people in Ireland, from being a burden on their parents or country, and for making them beneficial to the publick.
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/1080/1080-h/1080-h.htm

"I shall now therefore humbly propose my own thoughts, which I hope will not be liable to the least objection.

I have been assured by a very knowing American of my acquaintance in London, that a young healthy child well nursed, is, at a year old, a most delicious nourishing and wholesome food, whether stewed, roasted, baked, or boiled; and I make no doubt that it will equally serve in a fricasee, or a ragoust.

I do therefore humbly offer it to publick consideration, that of the hundred and twenty thousand children, already computed, twenty thousand may be reserved for breed, whereof only one fourth part to be males; which is more than we allow to sheep, black cattle, or swine, and my reason is, that these children are seldom the fruits of marriage, a circumstance not much regarded by our savages, therefore, one male will be sufficient to serve four females. That the remaining hundred thousand may, at a year old, be offered in sale to the persons of quality and fortune, through the kingdom, always advising the mother to let them suck plentifully in the last month, so as to render them plump, and fat for a good table. A child will make two dishes at an entertainment for friends, and when the family dines alone, the fore or hind quarter will make a reasonable dish, and seasoned with a little pepper or salt, will be very good boiled on the fourth day, especially in winter."

Attempting to divorce social commentry from English literature as the author attempts to do is self serving, from someone who obviously lacks the eductation and appreciation of the wellspring of our great authors.

Dear Steele,

The study of literature is one of the best ways to
understand the different social issues that shape
our world. But more than that is opens up a world
that students may not have known much about and it
develops skills that are essential for today's
global environment. It's a chance to discover
and understand - a chance to sharpen the student's
own ability to write, read, analyze, and persuade.

Part and parcel of good education.

davidf, has summed up the reasoning behind 'lesson 4' as it relates to English as a subject rather well. Its questionable if year 8 students are advanced enough to grasps the relevance of those topics at the beginning of their high school English studies, but would be better off tackling them in depth later in the curriculum.

My concern is people from the hard right like Shadow Minister would much prefer such topics be designated taboo and not touched upon at all in the way asked. Rather if they must be discussed, then the bland facts in a History lesson will suffice. The hard right find discussion of these topics to be uncomfortable for them.

the numerous examples of kids being brainwashed by gender/bender studies, global warming lies, Indigeneous culture and every other leftist bit of garbage shows how gutless and weak our Federal pollies have been for the last few decades. Most of the time it has been cowardly liberals who have allowed this vomit to indoctinate our kids. No wonder their is such a need for private schools. All this money spent on education while the average teacher and student dumbed down.

runner,

I'm sure that despite your efforts - your children
and grand-children will outgrow you and your viewpoints
thanks to the schools they'll go to. Unless of course
you'll home-school them. Even so - they'll be influenced
by their peers despite your indoctrination. Life happens-
despite your feeble attempts!

runner,

Private schools are one of the main threats still standing in the way of the intolerant multiculturalists and mass immigrations who are intent on replacing Anglo-Saxon Australians. That's why the Leftist media is always whining about the 'exclusivity' and 'whiteness' of private schools - many of which are far from exclusive and admit students of all ethnicities and colours.

The subordination and steady replacement of Anglo Saxons is unstoppable, thanks to governments' abandoning of us in favour of a more compliant population thirsting for welfare, and ready to vote for those ready to give it to them. Look what happened to John Howard when affiliated Asian voters thought he might close the gate to their many relatives and cronies.

The cosmopolitan left has abandoned the Aussie working class for new voters, including ethnic minorities, who can be relied on to support parties that keep the immigration door open to their kith and kin. Unfortunately, those parties are Liberal, Labor and Green.

The elitists have 'elected' new people to replace Anglo Australia.

School brainwashing is just one part of the operation.

The inter-marriages of Anglo-Saxons not only in the
UK, their colonies and in our country with populations
of people from various ethnic groups such as - the
Indigenous, Indian, Meditteranean,
Continental Europeans-Scandianvians, Africans,
African Americans, Chinese, Germans, French, and
many others, (and basically the rest of the world)
has changed the appearance over the centuries. It has
changed the Anglo-Saxon perceived image that some
still want to hold on to.

This should not be surprising to anyone with even a
smattering of historical knowledge - knowing that these
people historically are the most mixed people on the
planet. Their history of invasions and settlements
leave most other countries for dead.

Even the British royalty is of mixed ancestry - varying
from Germanic, Russian, Greek, French, to name just a few.
Including the recent - Afro-American addition.

All this can be verified in the Encyclopedia Britannica.

Not strictly brainwashing - not political at least- a school in Hull has had to apologise for setting homework on a answers that could be found only on porn websites.

All over the Western world, parents have to start finding out what sort of wackadoos have their kids at their mercy these days.

Foxy,

I don't disagree with David f, and neither does Dr Salter. Literature is largely intertwined with the politics of the day. However, Dr Salter's point was that the lesson 4 had nothing to do with literature and was pure politics or history at best and questioned why this imported politics was relevant in an Australian English class.

Hi Foxy,

One thing this discussion has opened my eyes to is the terrible way education was administered in my school days. English and all other subjects were tough in a bland, matter of fact way, with no scope for critical annalists or questioning by the student. Education was a one way street, with the teacher basically imparting a series of facts for the student to learn, and later to be questioned on those facts to determine a pass or fail.

I recall in about the 2nd year of high school been given the novel 'The Old Man and the Sea' by Ernest Hemingway. It was treated by the teacher as a good yarn for boys to read. Basically to pass you had to simply relay the facts of the story and little else. Nothing much was said of the author Hemingway, who I later learned was a much more interesting character than 'Santiago' ever could be. Subjects were sanitised in such a way that there was no mention of anything controversial, such that it might influence the student in any subversive way.

We have regressive people on this forum who want education reduced to the standards of more than 50 years ago.

Paul1405,
I also studied Ernest Hemmingway, he committed suicide not wanting to get old. I would not consider his life's example to be admired by his readers.

I don’t mind Ernest falling in love said," Hemingway's second wife, Pauline Pfeiffer, wrote of the literary giant, "but why does he always have to marry the girl when he does?"

That's a question that Ernest Hemingway took to his grave.

Before he ended his life with a gunshot to the head in July 1961, Hemingway had four wives who were remarkable in their own right: Hadley Richardson, Pauline 'Fife' Pfeiffer, Martha Gellhorn, and Mary Welsh. Having the unique experience of loving this talented, complicated and erratic man — fourth wife Welsh referred to each of her predecessors as graduates of "the Hemingway University" — some of the women even managed to form a bond with one another.

As I said Josephus, (Hemingway) was a much more interesting character than 'Santiago' ever could be. Four wives and suicide not what a good catholic boy should learn about in the 1960's.

"I (Josephus) would not consider his life's example to be admired by his readers." I'm not that judgemental about the mans personal life, I'll leave that to the Christians, they are full of moral virtue, and better judges of these things than I.

Paul,

Your poor English schooling is evident. However, given that my education was not as stilted as yours I'd put it to you that your education was not representative entirely of the earlier training.

Given the predilection of the left whinge Teachers union to use school time for indoctrination rather than education, this crowd of left whinge clowns want to take us back to 1984.

Shadow Minister, you actually had an education, could have fooled me. Did you study English as a school subject, your posts seem to indicate it's your second language, or you are semi literate. You pompously present yourself as a highbrow know it all, only to be exposed as a low class second rate nong, but we wont hold that against you. As a rabid member of the forums right, there would be a multitude of social justice topics you would not approve of as being suitable for the young mind. You would be a supporter of the three R's, and not much else. Not long ago people like you didn't approve of education for the lower classes.

No political position has a monopoly on vice or virtue. There is no evidence that either those on the right or those on the left lie and manipulate more. Insults and denigration of those with opposing opinions do not add to validity of an argument.

Very true.

However some people's idea of an agreeable person,
is a person who agrees with them.

While others know so little and know it so fluently.

Still others never want to hurt anyone. They just
feel an obligation.

Polite conversation is rarely either.

//Given the predilection of the left whinge Teachers union to use school time for indoctrination rather than education, this crowd of left whinge clowns want to take us back to 1984.//

Of course. Teaching kids about the history of racial oppression outside of their history classes is exactly like a dystopian totalitarian dictatorship, except for the 'dystopian', 'totalitarian' and 'dicatorship' bits.

I feel there should be a corollary to Godwin's law that covers Orwell's masterpiece.

Dear Foxy,

I generally agree more with Steele Reduxe, Paul1405 and you than I do with Shadow Minister, Josephus, runner and ttbn. However, if I had the life experiences of Shadow Minister, Josephus, runner and ttbn I might agree more with them. I don’t know. I shouldn’t be preaching, and I was wrong for doing so.

Paul,

It is the sign of the intellectually feeble to lash out with ad hominems when embarrassed. I genuinely feel sorry for you and apologise for exposing your litery weakness and wish that you could have got the "special" education you deserved.

Toni,

For god's wind your neck in you sound like a professional "offenderati". The 1984 was a quip in response to Paul which few on this site would have understood. However, the censorious left wish to close down any debate on their dogma not unlike the thought police in Orwell's novel.

Today's left whingers believe that everyone is equal but they are more equal than everyone else. (animal farm)

Dear David F.,

We've all only got our own experiences to go by I guess.
However, that doesn't mean that we shouldn't open up our
minds to try and understand things from another's
perspective - and that is something you have always done
on this forum. I have learned a great deal from you over
the years. I was wrong to be flippant.

Wow, Shadow is a literary genius, trying to regurgitate that tied old hackneyed quote of George Orwell's with "everyone is equal but they are more equal than everyone else", attributing it to Orwell's famous book 1984. Of course he gets it wrong, totally wrong (probably never read the book). His dumb attempt at paraphrasing is totally incorrect. In George Orwell's, other famous book 'ANIMAL FARM' you will find; " All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others".

Shadow, try reading, you may even learn something!

//However, the censorious left wish to close down any debate on their dogma not unlike the thought police in Orwell's novel.//

Well that argument definitely isn't doubleplushyberbolic.

You know, it's remarkable that for all the whining I hear from some quarters about their 'oppression' by the left, I still have to hear their whining about their 'oppression' by the left. Seems to me that if I can still hear their whining then their sob stories about being 'silenced' are necessarily bollocks.

I reckon you should give the snowflake routine a rest. You sound like Dennis the Constitutional Peasant - except you're not funny.

Shadow is familiar with 'ANIMAL FARM' he watched the first five minutes of the animated version!

Dear David,

What is wrong with preaching, we have a world populated by millions of preachers, from the Pope in Rome, to The Donald in Washington, to all the preachers we have on this forum site, myself included, from the Church of the Left Whinge. It is the duty of us preachers to give the non-believers a bit of stick from time to time, not to convert them, just to wake them up. Didn't you ever wounder why Christ carried a long staff around with him, it was to give the disciples a smack around the chops every now and then, when they nodded off while he was preaching to them, waking them up.

The first recorded preacher was Eve, who gave it to her old man Adam, about getting out there and pick'n some apples, she wanted to make a pie. Adam didn't want to do it, because the Babylonian Bruisers were take'n on the Jericho Centurions down at the Colosseum that arvo, in a gladiatorial battle to the death, Adam didn't want to miss it on the telly! But Eve keep preaching, and Adam went and picked some apples, and look at the fine mess we are in now. BTW the Babylonian Bruisers won 5/4 with a late decapitation in the final quarter, I know you wanted to know that! This is all from the Holy Book of Cyril which can be found down at my Church of the Left Whinge.

Sorry my friend, just to cheer you up, I hope it made you laugh. "A second of laughter is better than a lifetime of misery". So said Cyril, and he should know, the miserable bastard!

Dear Paul,

I feel that preaching is not wrong if the preaching is requested by the recipient of the preaching. If one wants to hear the likes of Billy Graham one goes to a stadium where the likes of Billy Graham hold forth. However, unrequested preaching is like intrusive advertising. It is better not to set oneself above others even though you feel you know better than they do. Treat people whose ideas differ from yours with the respect you hope they will accord you. The foregoing remarks are Polonian and preaching, and I hope you will forgive me for them. I find when I have given in to the urge to preach or be sarcastic to those who differ from me I have not convinced them of the validity of my point of view. If I argue reasonably, cite facts and treat them as I would like to be treated I may not convince them either, but I will feel better about myself

Hi David,
"if the preaching is requested by the recipient of the preaching"

You might find this from the Buddha on his message of "Enlightenment". If Buddhism could be summed up in a single word, which it cannot, that word would be enlightenment. Its only about 2 minutes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyRMghjRPUo&t=00s

Dear Paul,

Buddha apparently was approached as a source of enlightenment. I am not a source of enlightenment. Sometimes I am right. Sometimes I am wrong. I only have my opinions which may sometimes be right even I may feel that I am always right. We possibly all feel that way.

"The subordination and steady replacement of Anglo Saxons is unstoppable"
I always suspected you were a white supremacist ttbn.

"The cosmopolitan left has abandoned the Aussie working class for new voters,"
More like racist, ignorant working class voters have been captured by the racist, ignorant right.

Dear Josephus,

What a tawdry little hypocritical person you present as. You bring up Hemingway's four wives but laud Trump with pithy and debunked little bits of rubbish like;

“Donald Trump has an IQ of 145 the highest of any American President.”

This is a bloke who has been married three times, had numerous affairs including with pornstars, has been repeatedly accused of sexual assault, admitted freely to sexual assault, and yet is our poster boy.

Can you see how belittling to you personally this is when you obviously are aware and frank about moral failings of others but when it comes to your poster boy you are completely missing in action.

These are the signs of someone in a cult.

ignorant working class voters have been captured by the racist, ignorant right.
mikk,
looking the gift horse in the mouth, biting the hand that feeds you ? Not a sign of a healthy mentality at all !
It's the Left & a very ignorant lot they are too, that has started the exploitation & misuse of the term Racist ! To describe a full-blown Leftie as an ignorant, parasitic racist would be dead on the mark !

Paul,

You are a literary ignoramus, I never claimed to be quoting Animal farm exactly and unlike you actually read both animal farm and 1984. What else could one expect from a bigot that can't even spell.

Toni,

Sorry to interrupt your snowflake whinge as I know that you would prefer class rooms to be a safe space for left whinge ideology and not interrupted by nasty counter opinions and facts.

Dear Shadow Minister,

You write;

“Sorry to interrupt your snowflake whinge as I know that you would prefer class rooms to be a safe space for left whinge ideology and not interrupted by nasty counter opinions and facts.”

This whole thread is some ultra right drongo from Quadrant being a snowflake.

Bloody hell I wish you right whingers would decide what you are upset about. The topic is about certain uncomfortable opinion and facts rendering classrooms as non safe places for Salter's kids to have an education and now you have turned that completely on its head.

Some bloody consistency and far less hypocrisy from you lot would be really welcome.

//I know that you would prefer class rooms to be a safe space for left whinge ideology and not interrupted by nasty counter opinions and facts.//

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=9178#304881

Note the bit where I said 'both for and against'? Your arguments would be more convincing if they didn't rely on obvious falsehoods.

This is a piece about the American comedian Jon Stewart and it talks about his literature teacher in high school being a big influence. Why? Because the teacher was giving instruction on 'some of the politically incorrect books' which questioned existing power paradigms.

Slater would likely have had the teacher fired.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTutwy3wNGc

SR,

I know that you and other left whinger snowflakes consider complaining your preserve, however, not everyone that makes a complaint is a snowflake.

That Salter raised concerns that his child's English teacher was neglecting her duty to teach English which considering Aus's declining PISA ratings is a genuine concern, and called for politics to include diverse opinions which is exactly the opposite of what left whinge snowflakes are calling for. (because snowflakes can't bear dissenting opinions to be aired)

P.S. unlike left whinge snowflake Salter did not call for the offending teacher to be sacked.

Dear Shadow Minister,

Nope.

Slater wanted a 'safe place' for his kid to learn a sanitised version of English studies. Indeed he proposed home schooling where “I would be able to filter out or soften its most damaging elements”.

I will remind you of what you wrote;

“Sorry to interrupt your snowflake whinge as I know that you would prefer class rooms to be a safe space for left whinge ideology and not interrupted by nasty counter opinions and facts.”

Perhaps you had better have a chat with Slater so the two of you can determine what you are having a whinge about.

Further you claim; “That Salter raised concerns that his child's English teacher was neglecting her duty to teach English”.

No he wasn't. Where did you glean this from?

You are a literary ignoramus, I never claimed to be quoting Animal farm exactly and unlike you actually read both animal farm and 1984. What else could one expect from a bigot that can't even spell.

Hi Albert12,

Welcome to the forum, you have done a cut and paste of a Shadow Minister's literary masterpiece. I note it contains a number of basic errors, "Animal farm", should read Animal Farm, Farm being a proper noun, SM remember a capital letter for proper nouns that's basic. I don't claim to be the genius of all subjects that Shadow will tell you he is. Not only is he an Engineer, he'll also claim to be a man of legal letter, a medical expert, political guru....where does he find the time? When it comes to literature Shadow might tell you he has read every book ever published, and some that were not, including those hard for us to understand foreign language jobs in Latin or some such lingo. Shadow has read every book there ever was, from Tolstoy's 'War and Peace', to the 'Sydney Phone Directory', all from cover to cover. Where does he find the time?

Dear Albert12,

Who else are you? Are you a sock puppet?

Hi David, he's not me, could be SM2. Started the new topic 'Safety regulations and employee protection laws' which Foxy and I have put our 2 cents worth in already.

Slater wanted a 'safe place' for his kid to learn a sanitised version of English studies. Indeed he proposed home schooling where “I would be able to filter out or soften its most damaging elements”.

I will remind you of what you wrote;

“Sorry to interrupt your snowflake whinge as I know that you would prefer class rooms to be a safe space for left whinge ideology and not interrupted by nasty counter opinions and facts.”

Perhaps you had better have a chat with Slater so the two of you can determine what you are having a whinge about.

Further you claim; “That Salter raised concerns that his child's English teacher was neglecting her duty to teach English”.

No he wasn't. Where did you glean this from?

An example of great literature which addressed the politics of the day is Shelley’s “The Mask of Anarchy”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Masque_of_Anarchy is a discussion of the poem

https://www.poemhunter.com/poem/the-mask-of-anarchy/ contains the verse

It is a powerful poem. Shelley’s feelings were aroused by the injustice that day in massacring protesting workers. The English teacher seems to me to be trying to get his students to understand the feelings which create literature.

Another great poem was that of Hardy’s which addressed the futility of war.

https://www.poemhunter.com/poem/the-man-he-killed/

Had he and I but met
By some old ancient inn,
We should have set us down to wet
Right many a nipperkin!

But ranged as infantry,
And staring face to face,
I shot at him as he at me,
And killed him in his place.

I shot him dead because--
Because he was my foe,
Just so: my foe of course he was;
That's clear enough; although

He thought he'd 'list, perhaps,
Off-hand like--just as I--
Was out of work--had sold his traps--
No other reason why.

Yes; quaint and curious war is!
You shoot a fellow down
You'd treat, if met where any bar is,
Or help to half a crown.

Thomas Hardy

Great writers are involved in the world, and great English teachers try to have their students feel that involvement.

School should be about learning how to think for yourself.

I imagine that in schools these days you're only allowed to think and question things they want to steer you towards thinking and questioning about in a social and political context.

Other things in a social or political context they want to make your minds up for you and if you think of question those things then they would oppose your free thinking and questioning of things for yourself.

The whole worlds just one big psyop.

SR,

What unmitigated bollocks. Perhaps you could point to the NSW English curriculum and show where US civil rights is included. I doubt that it is even in the history curriculum.

I wonder if the left whingers actually include any English in the English classes. It would explain why so many public school pupils are functionally illiterate. It would also explain why private schools do so much better than public schools, because their "sanitised" classes actually teach the curriculum.

P.S. that the English teacher was not teaching English was pure negligence. I guess that if she taught the rise of fascism through the lens of the right she would have been fired forthwith.

Paul,

The more you post the more of a literal dunce you show yourself to be. Animal farm is not a proper noun as for starters it is two words.

Comprehension is also a problem for you SM, you said; " Animal farm is not a proper noun as for starters it is two words." I said; "Farm being a proper noun, SM remember a capital letter for proper nouns that's basic." When referring to a book title such as 'Animal Farm' both words in the title start with a capital letter, you just got it wrong. Its back into the remedial mob for you, anyway tut tut, I forgive you.

BTW; How is that imminent arrest in the Beat Up Bolt case you claimed was about to take place three years ago. Got that wrong as well!

Please cite a work attacking injustice that comes from the right.

Donald Trump's "Fake News".
He thinks the media is unjust thereby - "injustice".
(smile).

He thinks anyone who disagrees with him is - unjust.
He attacks everybody and everything.

Paul,

Why are you lying again. It appears that everything you say is Bollocks the only question is whether you knew better.

Only a half wit would think that farm is a proper noun. The general rule is that the first letter of the first word is capitalised. Other than that I have seen some or all of the words capitalised or even every single letter capitalised, but there is no solid rule past the first word.

David f,
Gulag Archipelago for starters.

Dear Shadow Minister,

You are correct. Solzhenitsyn was indeed a man of the right, and his criticism of the Soviet tyranny was quite valid. Both left and right have criticised Soviet tyranny.

George Orwell was a leftist, and critic of communism. His "1984" was a criticism of totalitarianism in general, and his "Animal Farm" seemed aimed more at the Soviet Union.

Early in the history of the Soviet Union leftists were critical of it. Emma Goldman, an anarchist, was deported from the US to the Soviet Union. She expected great things of it but saw the reality. She wrote "My Disillusionment in Russia" published in 1923 and "My Further Disillusionment in Russia published in 1924.

Thank you for pointing out the example of Solzhenitsyn. Both right and left can support freedom, and both right and left can support tyranny.
In our sniping at each other we can neglect where we agree.