Victoria's last Premier worthy of the post, Jeff Kennett, has called on hapless appeal judges, Anne Ferguson and Chris Maxwell, to resign after their hideous incompetence - they "went with the vibe, not the law" - in rejecting Cardinal Pell's appeal and consigning an innocent man to 405 days jail.

Kennett calls into question the standing of the Victorian legal system which, by 1992, was so low that anyone involved in a serious commercial crime went to NSW courts to have their matters heard. The Court of Appeal was established in 1994 to address the lack of confidence in Victoria's justice system.

That worked - come 2020!

It's well past time, not just in Victoria, that the mystique surrounding judges was dumped, and they were treated like any other public servants, subject to scrutiny, discipline and dismissal for incompetence.

activist Judges destroying any confidence in the Court system in Victoria. I suppose they are in good company with the Premier selling out to China with the Belts and Roads 'Initiative' with China. God denying socialist have always lacked any moral compass.

One of the pillars of our system is that judges can't be sacked or pressured over their careers. So effectively judges, at least at the highest levels, are untouchable, for better or worse so that they can make decisions without fear of the repercussions.

But I've always been in favour of a proposal made in England some years ago. Basically a three strike rule for judges. Have three of your decisions overturned by a superior court and you're out, having demonstrated general incompetency.

I'm not sure what the caused the problems with the Appeals Court judges. Were they just political appointments who judged based on the desire of their group to attack a disfavoured group or were they just scared of the popular backlash of following the law rather than the mob?

Either way, they ought to live in disgrace for a very long time. They shouldn't be forced to go but if they still had a shred of integrity they'd resign.

The "three strikes" proposal sounds fair. All judges are appointed by politicians are they not?

In fact, Judges of the High Court can be removed from office.

From the Australian Constitution:

"The Justices of the High Court and of other courts created by the Parliament-


(i) shall be appointed by the Governor-General in Council;


(ii) shall not be removed except by the Governor-General in Council, on an address from both Houses of the Parliament in the same session, praying for such removal on the ground of proved misbehaviour or incapacity;...".

So they're not necessarily there forever.
http://www.hcourt.gov.au/assets/publications/speeches/former-justices/kirbyj/kirbyj_judicialgroup.htm

and that being from a most outstanding former Judge, Michael Kirb.

Sorry, Michael Kirby.

I wouldn't trust a judge as far as I could throw one.

Dear mhaze,

Jeff Kennett has shown a remarkable ability to assess peoples character in the past, most notably that of John Howard but here he is just shooting from the hip.

It was noted in the Court of Appeal judgement that;

“In the past, in cases of alleged sexual abuse, juries were warned, in strong terms, of the dangers of convicting in the absence of corroboration. The law has changed in that regard. That makes the task of intermediate appellate courts charged with having to review the safety of convictions in such cases a particularly important and onerous one.”

That is Victorian Law which has changed, not Federal.

Will this mean we will see more conflicts between the two in the future? More than likely I feel.

Opinion,

"I wouldn't trust a judge as far as I could throw one."

But then you don't know any Judges, do you?

All the ones that I've known I would trust implicitly; they have all been hardworking decent people and not known for claiming dubious degrees.

SR

"Jeff Kennett has shown a remarkable ability to assess peoples character in the past"

OK...I didn't mention Kennett, but thanks for the insight anyway.

"That is Victorian Law which has changed, not Federal."

OK...so?

I think you'll find that the HC evaluated the case as regards Victorian Law, not Federal Law. Is there even a Federal Law as regards sexual assault in non-Federal jurisdictions?

Is Mise,

"In fact, Judges of the High Court can be removed from office."

Theoretically true. But its never happened.
Anyway we were talking about removal of judges further down the totem pole. Again, theoretically they can be removed, but its so rare as to effectively non-existent.

But then you don't know any Judges, do you?
Is Mise,
I met a former High Court Judge a few years back who by then was involved in other do-gooder schemes.
I found him to be exceedingly ignorant in matters everyday !

mhaze,

No, you didn't mention Kennett, but SR, who claims not to read my posts,and has historically hated my guts, lies in wait so that he can attack other posters who might agree with me and, even if they don't agree with me, disagree with his ultra left views and his unpleasant, combative manner.

As you say, the removal of judges is theoretical. I'm beginning to think that our Constitution is just theoretical, too. At least in the eyes of politicians. It would be good to have articles from David Flint, one of the very few constitutional lawyers prepared to share his knowledge, gratis, for the benefit of society. Not that society is always interested of course. Ignorance is bliss applies quite a lot in Australia.

Is mise,

I don't want to know any judges ever!

Like a lot of other people I have a very low opinion of lawyers.

Misopinionated,

I'm sure that, if you extended your opinion about lawyers and judges (they are not the same, you know) to most reasonably well-educated people with broad expertise in their fields, the feeling would be mutual :)

Joe

All the judges I know speak highly of Mr. Opinion.

The removal of Judges is not theoretical at all but a fact of the Constitution, that it has never been used is irrelevant.

When Judges have needed to be removed it is achieved on the quiet by their peers advising them to resign; if they resist then there are many ways to bring pressure upon them to conform.

Individual,

That's one Judge; I knew many when I worked at the Law Courts and I mixed socially with quite a few, especially in Scots society, and as I said they were all hardworking decent men and women.

ttbn,

I thought you kept better company.

Loudmouth,

That will leave you off the list of course. You do know that?

they were all hardworking decent men and women.
Is Mise,
I have worked alongside a lot of bureaucrats & yes I can recall at least two who were like those you mentioned. Were you to introduce me to more Judges I'm certain I could find a number who were/are like that former High Court Judge.
I'm looking at our society as a whole & the people who govern us & I simply cannot shake my doubts as to their suitability for the positions they hold at massive expense to us all !
Of course there are decent people in every organisation but they're outnumbered by the megalomaniacs !

individual,

I am speaking from experience, you are speaking supposition.

SR,

"In the past, in cases of alleged sexual abuse, juries were warned, in strong terms, of the dangers of convicting in the absence of corroboration. The law has changed in that regard. That makes the task of intermediate appellate courts charged with having to review the safety of convictions in such cases a particularly important and onerous one."

It is interesting that this change has introduced into Victorian law. This in itself creates a cause to challenge the verdict in the appeal courts.

Is Mise,
No, mine is from personal experience also !

Is Mise and individual,

Sounds like both of you have been dragged up before a magistrate on more than one occasion. Care to enlighten us on your criminal record?

You only had to watch the hanky panky that went on with the appointment & "special" treatment of some magistrate under the Beattie & later Bleigh governments in Queensland to know that "Justice" has very little, or nothing to do with the practice of law in Oz.

Even from this distance it is obvious that the Law as it is practiced in Victoria has less to do with justice, or even LAW than it does with Labor/lefty politics, & pay back.

individual,

Mine experience is from the many your's apparently from one, and he may well have been outstanding in the practice of his area of law, that he was a dill in other respects proves nothing.

Opinion,

The only times* that I have appeared in Court is as a witness, most times as an Expert Witness (Expert: 'X' for the unknown quality, 'spert' (sic) for a drip under pressure).

*
Other than one occasion when I was one of a number of defendants and we all copped a One pound fine and no costs.

individua,

That's good to hear. Did you buy the judge a bottle of gin. They like gin. And I mean they like lots of gin!

Is Mise,
My only time in a Court was before a Magistrate when the pile of crap who broke into my home & stole about $35,000 worth of gear was told to behave himself in future. I was informed that the crap wouldn't have the means to compensate me as the Police requested !
As for the judge I met, I haven't heard of any outstanding contributions to better our society !

Issy, you know what they say about an "EXPERT".... "X" is an undefined quantity... and a "SPURT" is a drip under pressure. Are you really an "XSPURT"

Indy, you should have had our resident Dennis Denuto as your defence lawyer. A colossus among the Forums legal elite, our very own man of letters Shadow Minister QC KCMG DILL. Shadow would have got you off with a minimum of 20 years whilst invoking the finer points of the Magna Carta in your defence.

BTW; Does anyone know what happened to ALTRAV. Don't tell me he "spat the dummy" because he got another one of his posts deleted. Then again being Italian, and possible a decedent of the il Duce, he may be holidaying in a hospital bed in northern Italy. Who Knows?

Paul,

"Issy, you know what they say about an "EXPERT".... "X" is an undefined quantity... and a "SPURT" is a drip under pressure. Are you really an "XSPURT""

Where did you read that?

Oh! In my post above; you plagiarist!!

Oh! In my post above; you plagiarist!!
Mr Opinion,
And so are you because you definitely aren't the original author of that line !
I managed to come up with two of my own;

Those with no retort resort to ridicule !
Forgetting is forgivable, not thinking is not !

Feel free to plagiarise to your hearts content !

Must admit Issy, I only read your first line. What kind of judge did you know? The biggest pumpkin judge at the Royal Easter Show. What were you an xspurt in? Winning an honourable mention for your homemade pickles at the same show?
What is a plagiarists? Someone who spreads the plague, lots of them around at the moment.

BTW; How are you keep'n me old chum, no shoot'n down to the Gunnie HQ these days to bag a few varmints.... Ah well, we all have to make sacrifices.

Paul,

Since you ask,
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/plagiarist

As to expertize, I am recognized by the High Court (and thus the lesser ones) as a Firearms Expert.

The most notable case, where I refused to appear in Court, but I did give private and unpaid, advice to the lawyers for one party, was the "Milperra Massacre" (so-called but erroneously so, as both sides were armed and of approx equal numbers, but that's the media for you).

The two appeal court judges made a serious blunder. If they had any self respect or honour they would resign.

However, as Labor appointees they probably have neither.

Dear Shadow Minister,

So should the full bench of the High Court have resigned for getting their decision on Lindy Chamberlain wrong?

Mister SteeleRedux, steady on old chap, only if they were Labor appointees! Labor people on the bench, what next, women! Would not do, just not cricket, for any of our chaps from The Club to resign, scandal among the members, you know, frightfully messy, jolly bad show and all that. Such behaviour might be acceptable for those Labor types. Next thing you know you will be wanting our fellows to resign from the polo team. What can you be thinking my good man?

By the way, what was your alma mater? I am certain it was not one of better public schools. Kings Collage old boy myself, there was no riff-raff allowed! That name of yours SteeleRedux, sounds like you are from the Continent, not British, heaven forbid, you are not one of those trades people are you?

Apologise to Mr Shadow-Minister immediately!

Paul,

Here's an interesting Kings Collage.

http://www.saatchiart.com/art/Collage-Kings/665241/2103776/view

Not really to my taste but not bad at all.

SR,

The two appellate judges made a fundamental blunder in the Pell case. Perhaps you can point out the blunder the High court judges made in the Chamberlain case, or admit that you have no clue.