Can anyone asure me China Russia, and North Korea are not using Trump as much as he is using them
Can we expect any true deal to come out of his trade negotiations
Trump, in spite of my past predictions, in fact in spite of my wishes, may well get a second term
Some people want to believe in him
Watched the body language in meeting with all three leaders , never saw the love from others for him
But did see his crafty but shifty use of each for his campaign
Maybe you can fool some Americans all of the time

Trumpphobia?

The media is littered with it. So much egg on so many faces.

Dear belly,

Of course Trump is getting played just like he is with Putin and it is great fun to watch. It is a bit worrying that he might go rogue and start something big but his minders seem to have him under some control.

I think the bloke is hilarious, almost as hilarious as the chumps on here who really think Trump's 'negotiations' will result in a denuclearised peninsula.

Steele,

Me chump, you ??

A great bloke.

Steele,

I knew it.

The media is littered with it. So much egg on so many faces.
runner,
Not just the Media, some OLO'ers also show that there's no limit to vindictiveness !
Showman, maybe ? We've had Rudd, a clown ! Look how much support he had from this same lot before they found out that he really wasn't all that funny !

US Special Envoy Tells Europe: Choose Between Us and Iran
- Threatens sanctions on any country that buys any Iranian oil -
http://news.antiwar.com/2019/06/28/us-special-envoy-tells-europe-choose-between-us-and-iran/

Trump To Unleash Hell On Europe: EU Announces Channel To Circumvent SWIFT And Iran Sanctions Is Now Operational
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-06-28/trump-unleash-hell-europe-after-eu-says-spv-circumvent-swift-and-iran-sanctions-now
"Here is a simpler summary of what just happened: this was the first official shot across the bow of the USD status as a global reserve currency, and not by America's adversaries but by its closest allies. And once those who benefit the most from the status quo openly revolt against it, the countdown to the end of the USD reserve status officially begins."

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-07-09/economist-get-ready-world-currency-2018
http://www.housingwire.com/articles/43636-former-fed-chair-economy-going-off-a-cliff-in-2020

SR we both can see this thread is full of the poor lost souls who think Trump is fairdinkum
Deeper thinkers see this very mornings papers, all of them, saying the little north Korean dictator got more out of that hand shake than Trump
Barnum and Bailey started this stuff Gobbles refined it but Trump mastered it
You can fool some of the people all of the time, like a kitten jumping on its new ball of string, the few have jumped on the Trump bandwagon
And not even they know quite why
BUT he may yet win a second term
Democrats have far too many, far too unrealistic, candidates
Two good ones but aged, a woman who may make a great POTUS but [like Bill Shorten] has too many entrenched dislikers even before she starts
And [sadly] too many anti woman POTUS voters
Consider, are Russia China North Korea better served by Trump than a strong POTUS?

Belly,
if there is a war monger on OLO, it's you. You just can't get yourself to let things go their way, you just have to throw a spanner in the works. You don't happen to work for NEWS.com.au by any chance ? You seem the kind who'd criticise himself if there was no-one else around. You just have to criticise for criticising's sake !
Most of us here are trying to get out messages for possible solutions but not you. You just have to find fault ! Cut it out, you're not in the Union anymore ! If you demand of others to be perfect then the least you can do is to be reasonable yourself !

The art of the deal - so Trump backs down against China, Russia, Iran (wait and see) and North Korea (again: wait and see). Maybe Mexico (or even Venezuela) are next for his brilliant bluster-and-backdown tactics ? What a genius.

No wonder he's gone bankrupt three times, at least.

I can't figure out his mental age - somewhere between eight and sixteen. A reading expertise could assess his reading age from Twitter. As well, inheriting great wealth, and being over six foot, makes him the archetypical bully. I remember a big kid like that in primary school, his father was the headmaster.

But I don't think Trump can just chuck a tanty with those countries and get his way. Wait and see.

Joe

as they say if Trump created a cure for cancer the left would complain that doctors have lost their jobs. Anyone see those petty, virtue signalling, American hating democrats making fools of themselves the other day.

hating democrats making fools of themselves
runner,
I read the other day that some Academic/Democrat warned of increasing ferocity of bush fires due to global warming.
Now let's look at this a little closer. The recent bush fires' severity was due to the fact that the Academic "experts" prevented the regular seasonal cold burns to reduce the hazards of such fires so, the fuel built up to such an extent that the fires literally over-powered any measures to control them.
Were these "experts" to be advised to hide back in their theory class rooms where they belong & let the farmers, indigenous etc. do their preventative back-burning then the ferocity will be stopped in one hit. The Australian Bush relies on periodical fires, its whole ecology is revolving around the burns !

If Trump created a cure for cancer, other Americans would complain that he's stepping on their opium / fentanyl business in Afghanistan.

The US is akin to someone with split personalities and is twisted;
With corporate greed, neocon foreign policy and US hegemony taking priority over what is or isn't morally right.

Lets go starve and kill the people of Syria, Yemen and Venezuela and who knows where else all over the planet hey?

Hi there STEELEREDUX...

So you think the US President Mr. TRUMP is 'hilarious' because he's attempting to broker a nuclear truce with the North Koreans, whose leader is both 'dog cunning,' and mentally unstable in my opinion. Well, whether he's successful or otherwise, at least the blokes trying, despite all your pubescent 'sneering.'

indy you have my deepest sympathy, it can not be easy not understanding what the adults are talking about
IF Clinton had won the election, and if SHE formed these type of links to Russia China and North Korea
You bet the usual suspects would want her head
Had any POTUS post the cold war, done so they would be branded traitor
Trump, at best is a showman, but too a conman, he knows how to keep his followers happy
Knows they do not know enough to see him as he truly is
Post his time in the white house 2001 or four more years he will be unmasked, fully, for what he truly is

The G20 Summit had pluses and minuses.

Of course -
Larger than life, the US President and his trade
war with China over shadowed proceedings.

World trade organisation reform slipped further from
their grasp as many leaders expressed concern about
a return to the destructive trade tensions that
existed before World War II.

However on the more positive side, Australia according
to The Australian Financial Review, was exploring back-up
options as it intensified efforts to strike a free trade
deal with the European Union and finalise a new 16 nation
Asia Pacific trade pact.

Prime Minister Scott Morrison clearly appeared to be having
a good time (reinforced by his election victory that
legitimised his place on the world stage).

He scored a dinner with President Trump on the President's
first night in Japan and got fellow leaders to agree to
lobby social media companies over the publication of violent
content by terrorists.

Almost every bilateral meeting opened
with warm congratulations for Morrison's
election "miracle." With President Trump
lavishing praise on Morrison's "fantastic victory."

Rather than playing up differences most of the other leaders
strove to find common ground. And, as the Australian
Financial Review tells us - at the end of the day it is better
to have world leaders looking each other in the eye than
hurling insults via Twitter, or worse.

Belly,
Runner is right, you, and Foxy and SR have a phobia about Trump.

I must say that ever since I began voting, I have never seen a US President that made any difference to us here in Aus. They have come and gone and we just keep on going the same old way.

Our own politicians have far more to do with (stuffing up) our country to the extent that one could say it is deliberate.

We endured the Rudd/Gillard/Rudd fiasco and ended up with Abbott who had saved us from a carbon tax and stopped the invaders coming in boats. ( both brilliant stratagies by Labor) Then some bright people in the LNP turfted him because they wanted a PM with more charisma, and made Turnbull PM and I said at the time it was a disaster.

So Belly what about concentrating on home affairs instead of wondering about the yanks three ring circus. We have plenty to work on here.

Immigration and refugee policy for a start! Why so many and the wrong cultures?

HenryL.,

I don't have a phobia about President Trump.

I've worked and lived in the United States
for close to ten years and have experienced
their political system first-hand, as well
as some of their most famous leaders.
I just happen to view Trump as a con-man
and unfit for for the office of the President of the US.
Trump's actions both at home and on the global stage
prove me to be correct. Especially his recent
behaviour at the G20 Summit.

Henry L any relation to indy?
Have had a grin on my face all day, reading my old mate indys view confirmed Trump's ability to con some
Yours renews it,had any previous POTUS acted like him you WOULD say they betray their country
World media, this day, is reporting yesterdays event as nothing more or less than a photo opportunity
Saddest thing? refusal to understand politics powers such as Trump
And in the end betrays his followers first
Now gentlemen, you too indy, are you both fairdinkum, can you truly think, not liking Trump is a phobia I have?
That not agreeing with you is an illness.
You can tell a level headed Trump supporter, the crap runs out both ears in equal volume

Dear o sung wu,

You asked;

“So you think the US President Mr. TRUMP is 'hilarious' because he's attempting to broker a nuclear truce with the North Koreans, whose leader is both 'dog cunning,' and mentally unstable in my opinion. Well, whether he's successful or otherwise, at least the blokes trying, despite all your pubescent 'sneering.”

Well yes he is very trying.

So let's have a glimpse of the man you hold in such high esteem.

His claim yesterday was;

"President Obama wanted to meet and Chairman Kim would not meet him. The Obama Administration was begging for a meeting. They were begging for meetings constantly and Chairman Kim would not meet with him. And for some reason, we have a certain chemistry."

This has already been refuted by many who served the administration at that time;

National Security Advisor Susan Rice said “At the risk of stating the obvious, this is horse-sh@t”

Former deputy national security adviser Ben Rhodes says “Trump is lying. I was there for all 8 years. Obama never sought a meeting with Kim Jong Un. Foreign policy isn’t reality television it’s reality.”

James Clapper, who served as director of national intelligence under Obama said;

“In all the deliberations that I participated in on North Korea during the Obama administration, I can recall no instance whatever where President Obama ever indicated any interest whatsoever in meeting with Chairman Kim.”

Even General Michael Hayden, who served as CIA director under President George W. Bush and through the first weeks of the Obama administration said; “Yes. It’s horsesh@t”.

So someone who lies through his teeth for his own aggrandisement in such a petty, ridiculous, pompous manner gets your imprimatur and respect? Well mate he doesn't get mine. Here is Australia he would rightly be labelled an absolute tosser and yes those who fall for his horsesh@t are chumps.

The bloke is a utter child.

Belly for a bloke who confidently predicted a land slide for Labor at the last election, & got it about as wrong as it was possible to get it, perhaps we could be forgiven for thinking it is most presumptuous of you to tell others what they don't understand.

Perhaps a little meditating on your navel might have you admit, you are not exactly the font of all wisdom yourself old mate. To tell others who did predict the actual result of that election, you got so wrong, that they have no idea, does make you look rather foolish.

Perhaps continually telling others they are fools is not such a good idea.

not liking Trump is a phobia I have?
Belly,
You just don't like him (& btw neither do I) but to malign him for being miles better than any Democrat is a Phobia !
I don't particularly "like" any polies within the LNP either but I can't ignore the fact that they're the better economic managers for this Nation. I didn't vote LNP because I liked them, I voted for them as did so many others, to keep Labor out ! There's nothing phobic about common sense just because the Git mob is denouncing it !
Trump will be re-elected & his daughter will be his successor !

Dear Hassie,

Just about everyone predicted a Labor win from
the polls, to political commentators, to journalists,
even right-wing supporters like Jeff Kennett
did not expect a win.
So don't blame Belly. Most people thought that
the Libs would lose. Probably you too, if you
were honest.

Did you think that Tony Abbott would retain his seat
in Warringah?

Many people believed he would. As I'm sure did he.

It just goes to show that predicting election results
is risky at the best of times.

We're all beginning to learn that.

Hasbeen you and other want to smother me, for having another opinion
One shared by many, maybe most, even in his own country
It is weirdly funny
That you see a defect in me, for holding another view
Look I do not get my news from Fox/Sky
My morning read, often, includes AMERICAN free to read news
Lets face it, the unreserved [uniformed?] support of Trump here, is enforcing my view his followers are kitten like, playing with that new ball of string, but unsure just what it is
Trump is in election mode, he used the Kim meeting, and Kim, like his father and grandfather before,used Trump
What deal if any comes from all this will be worth noting NK has history for making then breaking promises

http://www.smh.com.au/world/asia/nice-picture-but-trump-kim-visit-lacks-focus-on-true-challenge-20190701-p522xi.html
Why not read the link?
As opinions are firm reading what others think will not change minds, or will it?
Any room for considered thought?
Found it interesting and far from the only such story even in news corp papers

Hi there STEELEREDUX...

There's no doubt in my mind, no one in the former OBAMA administration would ever utter anything that might appear favourable to the TRUMP camp. Moreover, I've yet to hear anything commendatory spoken about any American President, who appears to be so reviled and hated, like Donald TRUMP. I believe he'll obtain another four-year term, nevertheless?

I can't argue with you in any capacity, principally because I know very little about American Politics. However, in the past, I've had many conversations, specifically with three former members of the Bureau. Those who trained me in the United States, back in 1986 & 87. Three ordinary men like myself (blue collar), and to a man, they are staunch supporters of Mr. TRUMP.

FYI, to enable entry, into the Quantico VA, FBI Academy, each applicant must have an 'approved' College (Uni.) Degree.

So either these three ex Bureau, SA's (one a former SSA) are complete 'whack' jobs, or they genuinely possess a working knowledge and appreciation of the efforts of the TRUMP Presidency. As I indicated earlier, these three men are just ordinary citizens now - But knowing them as I do, they are not easily fooled. What about you Steele, are you easily fooled by the machinations of the loony 'Left'?

Something that puzzles me about you, Steele? There's no doubt you're a very clever man, one who can express himself admirably on paper. Nonetheless, you're of the 'Left'? When common sense and deductive reasoning should steer you to the 'Right'? I'm bemused as to why?

Hi Belly,
"IF Clinton had won the election, and if SHE formed these type of links to Russia China and North Korea
You bet the usual suspects would want her head"

Russia

http://www.chicagotribune.com/opinion/commentary/ct-clinton-foundation-investigation-russia-20171120-story.html

The New York Times reported in 2015 that "shortly after the Russians announced their intention to acquire a majority stake in Uranium One, [former President Bill] Clinton received $500,000 for a Moscow speech from a Russian investment bank with links to the Kremlin that was promoting Uranium One stock." In total, $145 million went to the Clinton Foundation from interests linked to Uranium One, which was acquired by the Russian government nuclear agency Rosatum.

Think that was just a coincidence? As former federal prosecutor Andy McCarthy points out, the Uranium One deal is not a national security scandal, it is a corruption scandal involving 'Clinton family self-dealing.' Ask yourself: How many half-a-million-dollar speeches has Bill Clinton given to Kremlin-linked banks since Hillary Clinton was defeated? How much Russian money is flowing into the Clinton Foundation's coffers today? If Donald Trump had given a $500,000 speech paid for by a Kremlin bank, and his private foundation had accepted $145 million from Vladimir Putin-linked oligarchs and their Western business partners, do you think that his critics would be insisting there was nothing to see here?"

AC it seems a truth posters here mirror Trump and those who support him
Deny at all cost, turn the discussion in to one about the other side
And let their views and opinions become the only ones
Trump, his recent and long term use of showmanship diplomacy, is harmful to good government
Had ANY past POTUS acted like him, we may already be at ww 3 stage
His ability to win some over is known, that some are very often not fully aware of who he is, what they think he is about, and in the end are as much a threat as he is

Had ANY past POTUS acted like him, we may already be at ww 3 stage
Belly,
that's your hate speaking again for you. Had previous POTUS acted like him the World would be a better place already. There wouldn't be all these refugees nor the trade imbalances.
The reason we are in such a mess because past politicians DIDN"T do their job !

Belly,
The truth is that both you and Foxy have an obsession with Trump. The same as foxy had an obsession with Obama, just because one of his staff replied to an email from Foxy. A more 'do nothing'US President is difficult to find.

Belly , you often talk about truth and here it is staring you in the face and you cannot see it.

For myself I care little for Trump and even less about US politics. I often liken them to a three ring circus as they go about their elections. Yes our own goons in Canberra do more to effect our well being and incomes than any US politician. Just look at the mess Labor left behind when in office last and then came Turnbull who was no better.

Belly you could start to convince Labor to adopt a decent immigration policy that most Aussies could accept as a beginning to the gaining of public confidence, but I doubt you or Labor will. Just not bright enough.

"Can anyone asure me China Russia, and North Korea are not using Trump as much as he is using them"

Yep, I'll give that assurance.

"Can we expect any true deal to come out of his trade negotiations"

Well he's not negotiating with NK over trade. Nor Russia. There will be a trade deal with China for no other reason than China desperately needs it. They can't have a situation where Trump holds further tariffs over their heads indefinitely. Their economy is hurting and will continue to hurt while-ever the trade deal remains unresolved. Even after that, they'll be worse off than they were before Trump decided to confront them over their flaunting of trade rules and intellectual property theft.
China isn't using Trump but they are desperately trying to work out how to live in the new post-Trump world.

Some nations, like NK and Iran are trying to just hang on through to November 2020 in the hope that Trump will lose and things can get back to normal where presidents like Clinton could be played by NK and presidents like Obama would buy off Iran with plane loads of cash. NK in particular have long used weak presidents for their own benefit. They'd make promises in return for money or goods and then blithely break the promises...over and over.

But that's not working with Trump. The second summit fell apart because NK tried it again. But Trump is making it clear they get nothing until the nukes are gone. Again, they'll try to wait him out in the hope of getting a weaker (Democrat) president, so don't expect to see anything big until 2021.

Belly its good to see that you've now dropped your silly assertions that Trump would be gone by year's end and to finally realise that he's every chance of winning in 2020. Welcome back to reality.

HenryL.,

You accuse me of having an "obsession" with President
Trump?

I actually turn off the TV when he comes on. So you're
wrong there. I have nothing against the man - except
that I agree with his previous advisers. The man is
unfit for office.

As for my receiving mail from the White House?

I have many contacts
in the US having lived and worked in the country in
some amazing jobs for close to ten years.

Why does it upset you that I think Trump is unfit for
office? It's just my personal opinion. And there
are many who agree with me. You of course are entitled
to your opinion. Like Art - it's all subjective.
But it won't really make one iota of difference unless
Americans choose to agree with my opinion at the
next election.

I am not only referring to me or this thread, it concerns me, truly, that not every opinion is welcome here OLO remains A GOOD IDEA
Can it continue to become a smaller and smaller pond, for only some fish , with certain views, to inhabit?
Look without bias at, but by no means only, Henry L and Individuals slurs, not calling for moderation,
Just how truly silly is it, how truly removed from the real world, to condemn me for a view great numbers, maybe even the majority have
Foxy, a woman, a good poster with thoughtful posts, is nearly slandered, and often, because she thinks differently, or is it because she is indeed female
Paul, good bloke unfortunately, a green voter, [Paul has every right to be a green, he knows it is my view they are the MORTAL enemies of Labor and working Australians]
But what of ttbn? he hates with equal bile all of our parties
Steel redux is under attack, seemingly for daring to have another opinion
Time and again new arrivals, are met at the OLO gate, and soundly abused! not just by ttbn, others we all know, trash new arrivals
IF we are not free to think differently, without being insulted let us know, tell us this place is not for all opinions
But spare me the trash talk from Henry L and indy, Trump is all I have said he is only worse,

All those feelings forced me to leave last time, in fact my self defense was curtailed as I was told the subject was closed
At least I now get to state my case, we had more women here then
We need to welcome women, not reject them
Donald Trump, here in these pages look and you will see
Any thought he may not be the man he claims, is met with efforts to silence the contributor even insult and claim mental illness drives me to? HAVE A DIFFERENT VIEW!
1984 in 2019! should we not talk about him?
What will future generations , knowing by then whatever the truth may be about him think of us
Tell me to go and I go, forever and ever, but do not tell me my opinions are not inline with the usual ssupectes therefore I must never state them

"You can tell a level headed Trump supporter, the crap runs out both ears in equal volume".

"But spare me the trash talk from Henry L and indy"

Pot calling the kettle black?

Hi there BELLY...

Your Post worries me on many levels. I too lament the loss of many terrific women, on The Forum. And it's rank cowardice to attack a woman with any degree of aggression and malevolence. However, as the name suggests, it is a 'Forum' where people's views and opinions should be heard in equal measure. There's nothing wrong with a spirited debate provided it doesn't become personal. There's no place for aggressive behaviour, and those who choose to engage in such conduct (LIKE MYSELF recently) should either be, pulled into line by the Moderator's or Graham YOUNG himself, and censured.

Should that unacceptable conduct persist, the offender would be denied access to all Forum discussions for a period to be determined by the Moderators and/or Graham YOUNG, as its founder.

Accordingly Belly, I implore you NOT to leave OLO again. You and I have very divergent & contradictory views on many issues and topics, but I still count you as a good Forum friend. Consequently, I'd be most disappointed if you decided to leave once more. Your view of the world is refreshingly comprehensive, together with many of the problems it faces. While your opinions are not necessarily couched in academia, I would take many of your life experiences, over those who can only quote someone else's lessons, gleaned from books or some other treatise or theory.

Dear o sung wu,

You write;

“Something that puzzles me about you, Steele? There's no doubt you're a very clever man, one who can express himself admirably on paper. Nonetheless, you're of the 'Left'? When common sense and deductive reasoning should steer you to the 'Right'? I'm bemused as to why?”

I'm not sure I quite measure up to that lofty assessment old chap but I presume you are being a overly fulsome to make your point.

I know a number of people who are very clever, who can express themselves very well and have a heap of common sense and deductive reasoning, yet do not exude a drop of compassion. They just seem incapable of it. For me it is one of the defining things about a person's character, the ability to feel compassion for others, for strangers, for people who they don't know and who they probably never will.

It makes me prepared to fight for things like Medicare and public schools, for decent outcomes for families at the bottom of the heap, to recognise dental health care for pensioners is more important that franking credits, that making housing more affordable is more important than negative gearing for people who own multiple properties.

As to me being on the right when I joined the Australian Democrats 25 years ago I thought of myself as a centralist, then all you buggers moved hard right and I am left sitting here like a shag on a rock. Just waiting for the rest of you to come to your senses.

Dear Belly,

You're such a sensitive soul with such a good heart.
You take things personally. You grew up in an age
where civility and good manners mattered.

Unfortunately, on a public forum its a mixed bag and
you'll get all sorts of people with very strong
emotions posting. Ourselves included in that category.

Today, this issue of how we speak to each other is
really an important issue. On social media it's
become vital to sift out the trouble makers.
Social media is where cyber trolls, bullies, stalkers,
and revenge posters live and as a result there's a
whole bunch of hatred, and people are targeted,
sometimes very personally.

I hope that you'll stick around and continue posting for
a very long time. O Sung Wu is
absolutely right. You contribute a great deal and would be
greatly missed.

The only advice I can offer is -
Don't respond to personal attacks
(easier said than done, I know). Responding gives them
a platform to continue and will only
increase your blood-pressure. If you feel yourself getting
upset, just take a break for a while, but do come back.

Belly,
I just scrolled through the posts on this thread and I cannot see anywhere that any poster has told you your posts are not welcome or suggested anything like that. So your comments about that are bull/rubbish for a start. It is one thing that you may not be able to refute a criticism of having a phobia about Trump but you do not have to make up lies and claim to be a victim. Just admit you have this phobia and get on with it.

I base my accusation of your phobia on the number of threads you have started on the subject and your obvious hatred of the bloke. I do not think I have ever bothered to put in a post about Trump, as he is of little interest to me, as is US politics in general.

I and others have taken Foxy to task on a number of occasions for misrepresenting the truth. The last I recall was when she quoted what Pauline Hanson had said and I called her out on that and it quickly became apparent that Foxy had made it up to suit her argument. But no withdrawal or apology from Foxy.

I will continue to call out those I think are misrepresenting.

Oh well tennis tonight and lawn mowing tomorrow.

HenryL.,

Could you point me in the direction of where exactly
I mis-quoted Pauline Hanson?

I don't recall the incident you're referring to.

So please give me the evidence to support your claims.
I will happily apologise if I did that.

cont'd ...

I also feel an obligation to provide information
and challenge people's views when I feel that they
are misrepresenting things. It's an occupational
habit.

Foxy/ osung wo, it is my view I said what needed to be said
And too claim no halo, I am aware I return serve far too often
It is not my intention to leave
I am a true centerist, within the ALP and from time to time erk even my party
We need more Bellys, we lost two elections that should have been in the bag
We FAIL,even now,to understand blue collar workers left us, in Both elections
We spoke at them,
Not with them, we tried gawd save us, to be greener than the greens, but always intended to let that mine go ahead
This thread is about deep concerns,shared by maybe the most, the the leader of the free world is a fake
Either that or as Henry L says, I have a phobia, if I indeed to, it is against poor to criminal government in today's NO LONGER UNITED USA

Dear HenryL,

Your exchange with Foxy has prompted me to go read a few of your posts and I found this;

"Runner is right, you, and Foxy and SR have a phobia about Trump."

I'm not sure about the other two but what on earth makes you think I have a phobia about Trump? I think the man is a reprobate, a charlatan and a compulsive liar but he really doesn't scare me. I not only find him entertaining but a delight in that the support for him from the Christian right in the US has shown what utter hypocrites they are.

What I am fascinated to see is what will be the result of the inevitable pushback.

After the Nixon/Ford period they got probably the most decent US president ever in Carter. After Reagan/Bush they got Clinton, a flawed man in many ways but certainly did some really good things and rescued the economy from the Reagan disaster. Finally they had Obama after two terms of Bush, the second earned from 9/11.

One feels that Trump's reign will usher in a new period of strong progressive politics which will move the country forward once again. Exciting times ahead.

Hi there STEELEREDUX...

I nearly fell off my chair when you say Mr. CARTER, was a good President? I don't know about that? What I can tell you though, among the Presidential Detail of the Secret Service, Mr. CARTER is utterly reviled, and loathed in equal measure! He's considered as the rudest most demanding of all Presidents in contemporary times, certainly since the end of WWll at least. This is common knowledge. Not sure if you can Google it, but check it out? These are the men and women who're required to take a bullet for the President!

Jimmy Carter reviled?

Carter inherited a mess. It was a time
when the nation was divided. Given the state of
the world Carter accomplished a great deal.

Anyway,this is what The Miller Cemtre which is a
non-partisan affiliate at the University of Virginia
that specialises in US Presidential scholarship
has to say:

http://millercentre.org/president/carter/impact-and-legacy

Oooops. Sorry for the typo.

Here's the link again:

http://millercenter.org/president/carter/impact-and-legacy

Dear o sung wu,

You aren't referring to Kessler's book are you?

What a hatchet job. This is an example of the trash they spouted about taking a note in to the President;

Palmer says Carter seemed to relish the power. At times, Carter would delay his response, smugly saying, "I'll let them know," Palmer says. "Other times, he would look at me and smile and say, 'Tell them yes.' I felt he felt it was a big deal. I didn't understand why that had to happen."

Why all the hyperbole?

The president got a note, sometimes he would give an answer directly and sometimes he felt he had to think about it. Surely that is what any president would do but under this author it was the crime of the century.

If you have anything other than Kessler then I'm happy to look at it.

Anyway let's weigh that up against this;

Quote

In the mid-1980s, more than 20 countries were affected by Guinea Worm Disease. There were about 3.5 million cases worldwide. It was just one more grim fact of life in for poor people in poor countries, making cycles of poverty worse.

In 1986 The Carter Center began its Guinea Worm eradication campaign and cases around the world began to drop sharply — never before had a large international NGO crated a sustained campaign around this disease of the poor.

By 2016, there were just 25 reported cases of Guinea Worm in the world, limited to four countries – South Sudan, Mali, Chad, and Ethiopia. This is a reduction of more than 99%.

End quote

http://www.undispatch.com/jimmy-carter-defeats-mortal-enemy-south-sudan/

That is what good people do.

Hey Belly,

"AC it seems a truth posters here mirror Trump and those who support him"

I was all for Trump at the 2016 election.

He campaigned against involvement in foreign wars, border control, creating jobs etc.
He got out of Paris Climate Accord, UNESCO and the TPP.
He had a nationalist message with the border wall issue;
'that we the people will decide who does and doesn't enter our country.
He gave progressives a well deserved kick in the backside for taking things too far and showed they did not have the support they assumed they did.

And he stopped (well probably not actually but slowed it at least) Hillary / Pelosi and the Democrats from using open borders as an issue to bring in voting stock, to continue to plunder and bring down the nation under socialist and sanctuary city ideology;
And he slowed the continued attack on the constitution.
(Actually he hasn't done a real lot there either)

In any case he stepped over the line when he went against his election promises and has continued neocon foreign policy in Syria.

- So I don't care too much for him anymore -

There is seemingly no change or end to US wars under any US President.

Recent UN Report says half the worlds refugees caused by US.
US Bombs Syria, Israel Kills Civilians In Syria Strikes & UN Report: US Behind Half World's Refugees
http://youtu.be/VV6Gvj5sCv0

As for China and North Korea;
I was going to mention Chinagate

http://www.wsj.com/articles/china-was-bill-clintons-russia-1488585526
http://www.conservapedia.com/Chinagate_fundraising_scandal
http://abcnews.go.com/International/fbi-arrests-chinese-millionaire-tied-clinton-scandal/story?id=33990683
http://www.wnd.com/2017/02/chinagate-fundraiser-feared-clintons-would-murder-him/

[Also Guccifer 2.0 stated that many other foreign hackers inc. from China were accessing HRC private email server. Questions still remain as to whether she was deliberately sharing sensitive information via an unsecured server in return for donations to the Clinton Foundation or CGI such as she had done previously in the Chinagate scandal]

Hi there FOXY & STEELEREDUX...

Please read my previous Post. I've no idea how good or otherwise Carter was as a President. I'm talking about the reputation he had with his protectors, the Secret Service. They loathed the man on so many levels. FOXY I've no idea of what sources or books you refer to, as with you as well Steele? You both know, ever since I've been on this Forum, I never quote extracts from books or other sources.

I find the continued need to quote someone else's work, to support your view, really tiresome, as I've indicated previously. I would like to hear your opinions, your beliefs, not have some extract quoted back to me.

When I trained in the US I met many Agents with the Secret Service the FBI and other federal law-enforcement operatives. I spoke with them just like you both do with your friends. I would humbly suggest I have a far better appreciation about the man's character, as told to me directly by (retired members) of the (then) Presidential Detail than either of you two do. If you choose to doubt me, well there's bugger all I can do about it. The conservations were many and varied, just like ordinary men do, all over the world.

http://www.smh.com.au/business/markets/trade-war-may-shipwreck-global-economy-warns-uk-bank-chief-20190703-p523k6.html
I have no problem with Trumps supporters THINKING he can save America from a very real trade deficite
And too I understand it is a very real problem, one every effort must be made to solve
But promising, saying I will fix it, then threatening the very basis of world trade, will only make it worse
America[and us only it is worse for us] can no longer make tractors and cars trucks and trains, and sell them to China Japan or many other countries
Cost of Labour supplies and much more stand in the way
World trade seems to be best served by finding things you can sell, to those markets, like food grains corn
Here is the heart of the matter Trump, in my view, is a man of no real substance, no real ability to deal with the three Communist states he must deal with
It remains my view this shallow salesman hurts the world economy, his own country, and world trade
Do not like my view? is Democracy served by condemning others views?

Hi BELLY...

You ask in your last Post; '...is Democracy served by condemning others views...'? No, it's not, especially on this Forum. As I said earlier, we all have our views & opinions, whether they're right wrong, or otherwise. If a contributor is continually (figuratively) 'shouted down,' it makes them wonder if there's any point contributing to this medium at all?

I was one of the worst offenders in bad-mouthing others. I had no 'colour' of right to do so. If one persists in this type of unacceptable conduct, no one will bother to respond or challenge your views. Due to the continued invective they receive, every time they try to answer.

Yesterday BELLY, I attempted to talk you out of leaving the Forum. Perhaps it's me that should go, especially when some of my opponents care NOT to believe what I say. I'm one of the oldest (in age) on the Forum with a few exceptions - therefore those who choose NOT to believe me, well what's the point of me even continuing to contribute at all?

Because I'll be damned if I'll use some book or author, to underpin my arguments or opinions, and we're not engaged in some judicial process. Neither the rules of evidence, or statute binds us, nor does precedent. We are simply a Forum of ordinary folk wishing to discuss and argue the topic at hand. Nothing more or less.

A final note on President Carter - no one could possibly blame his failed attempt to rescue the Iranian Hostages. The two Augustus (I think) stealth rotor wings we caught in a massive sand/dust storm, causing one to crash, thus negating any further attempts to make good a rescue. According to what I was told, the Bureau's HRT had prepared an alternate resolution to free the hostages. This alternative was revoked, preferring instead to go with the military option?

Dear O Sung Wu,

Your comments about former US President Carter were
interesting. I did state what I knew about him and also
added information from the Miller Center at the
University of Virginia which specializes in US
Presidents, public policy and political history.
And strives to apply the lessons of history to the
nation's pressing continued governance and challenges.

I added it for interest's sake and additional information.

Carter took office in the wake of the Watergate
scandal, the end of the Vietnam war and the height of the
Cold War. It was a time in which the nation was divided.
Given the state of the world he managed to accomplish
a great deal.

He spent his time working to secure peace, reduce poverty and
fight disease no matter what the political personal
consequences to himself. The nation and the world could use
more leader like him. In my opinion.

My use of links is an occupational habit. I use them to
acknowledge the sources of where my opinions come from.
I feel it gives them more credibility.

from SR..."[Clinton] rescued the economy from the Reagan disaster."

Its both sad and awfully funny when events that occurred within someone's lifespan are so misunderstood by them. Much of the last 50 years seem to be rather opaques to poor SR. The economy in the later Reagan years was among the best over the past 50 years. Of coarse the early years weren't so flash because Reagan had to fix the problems left by Carter - a decent man to be sure, but an utter failure as a president.

From Belly ..."America[and us only it is worse for us] can no longer make tractors and cars trucks and trains, and sell them to China Japan or many other countries"

Well maybe not those things specifically but it should be remembered that manufacturing is returning to the US due to Trump's policies with manufacturing job growth increasing ten times faster in Trumps first two years than Obama's last two. Its all too easy for those who claim to be pro-working man to just write-off those working jobs. The US elite has been doing that for 3 decades. Trump's great insight was to see that the blue-collar Americans were tired of being ignored and having the economic system weighted against them. He vowed to re-orientate the system to salvage middle-America and they voted for him then for that reason. And since he's delivering, they'll vote for him again.

o sung wo we understand each other life has thrown many learning lessons at us both
I can not say if I will leave, the thought has ran around my head many times
But too the understanding such thoughts are a failure on my part
Every view has merit, insult the view but not the poster
And in the end, understand we may all be wrong
Second trip around the print media this morning
Seems my view is shared
So here I go again Trump and Iran
I do not like or trust Iran, it is in all probability a terrorist backing country
Trump killed its agreement with the west, possibly because it is so, he never claimed at that time they had breached the agreement
He promised to rain down hell and destruction on them
Then?, did nothing after they attacked those oil tankers
He let them shoot down that drone, and took no action
Bluff? or statesmanship, bluff in my view
He may well regret not doing anything
And too leaving his supporters asking what is he up to

SKY NEWS this afternoon ticker tape under the talking head
< Trump may allow North Korea to keep its current Nuclear weapons >
In return for not increasing its stock
Really? what was that all about then?
Next storey China has urged Trump to lift sanctions on NK,without more delays.
So NK wins,what did Trump gain
Can every woman, every single one, who tells of Trump sexual assault be telling lies? every one?
Do not throw Clinton at me! that changes nothing, throwing another offender under the bus is not answering the question
Russia, cold war now a love in? do we trust Russia, Putin? what future truths may be revealed about this loving couple?

Trump Deragement Syndrome. If ever you had any doubts just read Belly, Foxy and the regressive news outlets.

runner it is my earnest hope you live long enough to see the downfall of your idol
Trump is to spend about ten million, to put on a military march
Just like the Kremlin , China AND NK do
The man is an ego out of control
Leave my conversation with myself at this point
But hope I live long enough to see truth and reality unmask this Gingerbread man for the con man he is

The final word just glad Bin Laden died before Trump could make friends with him
Come to think of it he may claim he has!

Belly wrote..."[Trump] did nothing after they attacked those oil tankers
He let them shoot down that drone, and took no action
Bluff? or statesmanship, bluff in my view
He may well regret not doing anything
And too leaving his supporters asking what is he up to"

So you think he should have taken action to avenge the shooting down of the drone? That action, according to the advice Trump received from the military, would have resulted in around 150 deaths.

So do you think Trump should have executed 150 people to avenge the drone attack?

I suspect (actually I know) that had he done so Belly et al would have been complaining loud and long that Trump was a warmonger and butcher. Trump Derangement Syndrome means that no matter what he does,Trump is wrong.

Belly wrote..."Can every woman, every single one, who tells of Trump sexual assault be telling lies? every one?"

Yes. Every single one. Or perhaps they were just deranged. Just like every single one of Kavanaugh's accusers were liars of deranged.
Its difficult to know which. The most recent Trump accuser is clearly bonkers. But is she also a liar. Who knows? Who cares?
Belly apparently.

"Do not throw Clinton at me." OK! Which one? Wouldn't throw her as far as I can trust her.

Foxy,
Regarding you misrepresenting what Pauline Hanson said. I suggest you look at your posts on the 7-6-18 where you claimed that Pauline said "Asians go home". You will find my comments,etc. on the same thread on the 8-6-18.

You failed to verify the quote and also failed to withdraw and apologize.

'runner it is my earnest hope you live long enough to see the downfall of your idol'

I hope so to Belly. The fact that Trump produces total derangement from his opponents certainly does not make him my idol. I am just thankful that the criminals, racist and American hating Democrats are not in power

Hey Belly,
"Trump may allow North Korea to keep its current Nuclear weapons"

Not surprised, it's face saving time.
Kim was never going to give up the nukes and what was the US going to do, annihilate Seoul trying?

Also Kim doesn't gain anything by using the nukes as his nations destruction would be guaranteed;
He gains the leverage he wanted simply by having them.

"Then?, did nothing after they attacked those oil tankers
He let them shoot down that drone, and took no action"

Iranian Opposition was responsible for the Oil Tanker attack and the drone was shot down in Iranian territory.
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=20387#360089

Hey runner,
"I am just thankful that the criminals, racist and American hating Democrats are not in power"

Yep, cheers to that.
(But in the grander scheme the GOP isn't much better)

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-07-04/donald-trump-the-showman-gets-his-own-big-fourth-of-july-show/11275110
AC yes agree face savuing day, just as the fourth of July is now Trump day!
Link is spot on, so its author should come and sit on the totally deluded bench with me

Well, they're starting on Ivanka now because they know her rise is inevitable ! They know that good looks & brains will out-do vindictiveness & daggyness !

Bit delusional indy, they commented about her being at, and trying to talk,at a meeting of world leaders
Her father was there but he is not a word leader just a silly old fool

Dear o sung wu,

Sorry mate but we are certainly going to differ on this one.

It was you who invited me to use Google to see what you were talking about re: Carter.

Well I did and any information which aligns to your take came from Kessler's book regarding the Secret Service. It has been shown to contain absolute doosies of inaccuracies and just outright nonsense, an example of which I quoted to you.

Now you might prefer to have these discussions purely based on opinion without the inconvenience of having those opinions tested with facts. But that is not how I operate.

You may well feel that using a source to support my opinion “really tiresome” but I find the task of having to go away and see if there is any veracity in your opinion equally tiresome if not more so.

Therefore I will continue to furnish quotes/facts to back up my opinions and I feel I do not over use them, if not for you at least for the few others who might be reading our exchanges.

You of course are welcome to continue posting unsubstantiated opinion as by your own words this is how you prefer to discuss things. For that I will not judge you. ;)

Dear mhaze,

In an example of utter disconnect with the facts you wrote;

“Its both sad and awfully funny when events that occurred within someone's lifespan are so misunderstood by them. Much of the last 50 years seem to be rather opaques to poor SR. The economy in the later Reagan years was among the best over the past 50 years.”

Well here are a bunch of 'inconvenient truths'.

Nixon/Ford drove the 29.3% jobs growth of Kennedy-Johnson down to 16.2% and headed south. Carter steadied the ship at 12.8% which Reagan grew to 17.7%. GHW Bush then trashed this to 2.5%, Clinton rescued it to a figure above Reagan's to 20.9%. Then GW Bush dropped it to an unbelievable 1% before a Democratic President in Obama rescued it and returned a figure of 9.7%.

While granted Reagan was the only Republican President not to increase the unemployment rate during their term since Truman none of the Democratic Presidents did either.

http://www.factcheck.org/2017/09/obamas-final-numbers/

Anyway by what measure do you put Reagan's economic performance above Clinton's?

from SR..."[Clinton] rescued the economy from the Reagan disaster."

On the face of it, its a moronic statement even by SR standards. Since Clinton didn't immediately follow Reagan, if he rescued the economy (he didn't) it was from Bush, not Reagan.

And then to show my "disconnect with the facts" he comes up with some highly dubious data (they use non-farm employment figures for reasons that make no real sense) he shows that the "Reagan disaster" was job growth of 17.7%. Even using SR's dodgy numbers that's the second highest out of those he mentions. (BTW the real numbers are Reagan 16.5%, Clinton 15.6%.... http://www.bls.gov/data/#employment).

So Reagan's economy has massive job growth but is somehow, in SR's fantasies, a disaster.

In reality what happened was SR shot his mouth off, got called out and then desperately searched for some data, valid or not, which would, in his mind, justify his original error. Normally, if you wanted to show an economic disaster you'd point to GDP or inflation or unemployment or some combination of these and a dozen other factors. That SR was reduced to using the highly dubious figures he used, shows just how wrong he was.

"Anyway by what measure do you put Reagan's economic performance above Clinton's?"

You can tell that SR knows he's on dodgy ground by how quickly he's trying to change the subject.

On a tangentially related subject, I noticed that Warren is now admitting that she's not an Amer-Indian. Who can remember SR's hysterical assertions that her DNA proved otherwise. I'm guessing SR has already shot that bit of lunacy down the memory-hole although one would think its probably full by now.

So Belly, are you in favour of killing 150 people to avenge the drone or not?

Or are you going to take the 5th AGAIN.

mhaze here we go again, another silly question, maybe because that is all you can muster
reread your own posts above
You CLEARLY say only your view is right
So whatever I say, in your eyes, will be wrong
Sir try, know it is hard, to imagine others may just be right and you wrong
Now 150 dead, 10.000 if needed
Trump is the school yard bully, who runs when confronted

Dear mhaze,

Lol. Hysterical? Really? I think one only has to look at the last two posts in our exchange to determine who holds that title old chap.

Now where were we?

Reagan's attempt to use national debt to 'fix' the economy is well known. It increased 186% during his two terms (ave 93% per term) and set the stage for out of control debt levels that have bedevilled every President since. While previously Carter increased levels by 43% in a single term it was not even close to Reagan's largess.

After Reagan GHW Bush tamed it to a degree with a 54% increase but it was Clinton who showed the most restraint by far averaging just 16% increase per term. The next republican president GW Bush then resorted to Reaganomics and shot the debt through the roof, though not quite at Reagan's stratospheric levels, averaging over 50% per term. It took a Democratic president in Obama, even faced with having to use a large chunk as a stimulus package combating the GFC, who averaged 36% increase per term.

We don't know what Trump's figures are yet but there seems little desire to check the national debt growth at all.

You whinged “You can tell that SR knows he's on dodgy ground by how quickly he's trying to change the subject.”

This was because I asked “Anyway by what measure do you put Reagan's economic performance above Clinton's?"

Well no, the reason I asked it was because you had claimed; “The economy in the later Reagan years was among the best over the past 50 years.”

Best to try and keep up old chap. It makes for a more coherent discussion.

Feel restrained from posting too many links
While I think they are a VITAL way of confirming statements we make
Mid election a pop up warned me this site is about our personal views
Post them still, but refraining from flooding the place
SMH this morning, a comedy piece Mocks Trump's big day, 4th of July march
Worth the read,truly, if only to see others around the world are mocking him
I believe my posts while mocking are telling of very real fears the bloke is a danger
Truly find fun in a man who avoided military service because he had spurs in his feet wants a miltary style love in, in his name

Belly wrote...."You CLEARLY say only your view is right".

I'd ask him to show where I clearly said that but Belly gets all whiny when asked to support his lunacy with actual facts. So I won't ask.

Belly wrote.."So whatever I say, in your eyes, will be wrong"

On this point, its not about being right or wrong. Its just about opinions. In my opinion, Trump was right to not kill 150 people to avenge a drone. Not just right but also the type of leader I'd hoped he was.
I was merely trying to find out your opinion. I wondered if you knew that avenging the drone involved slaughter on that scale.
Now we know your opinion...that not only do you advocate 150 deaths but 10000 deaths over a piece of metal.

So I'll slot that knowledge away in the memory-banks to to bought out the next time you try to virtual-signal over war deaths. You know, something like..."Belly, the man who thinks 10000 people should die because one man shot down an unmanned drone."

Hypocrisy is such an ugly look. But TDS will do that to the unthinking.

Sorry mhaze, true, any opinion I give about you would insult you
So not going to do that
Rained on the Gingerbread mans parade
He stood behind a bullet proof, rain too, screen, and told the world how great he is
Beg to differ but that only gets me branded lefty progressive, unfortunately caring is a bad thing in Trump's America

SR claimed that the Reagan economy was a disaster that was fixed by Clinton. When I pointed out that that was logically ridiculous because Clinton didn't inherit the Reagan economy, the response from SR was....

Crickets.

When asked to show how the Reagan economy was a disaster, SR's response was....

Crickets.

When I pointed out that the figures SR used to try to show that Clinton created more jobs than Reagaon were invalid, SR's response was...

Crickets.

When I pointed out that the more valid figures showed the opposite of what SR claimed, his response was ...

Crickets.

When I pointed out that Fauxachontas was now admitting that she wasn't an Amer-Indian, SR's response was....

Crickets.

Lots of chirping going on but very little actual logic.

Dear mhaze,

Droll mate, very droll.

The only reason you are hearing crickets is that you have fingers in both your ears and are chanting nah, nah, nah.

And I make no apologies for not chasing your diversions like Warren. If you wanted to discuss her start another thread. However I suspect the real reason for the continuous diversionary tactics is that your cupboard is bare.

mhaze,

The arguments about Reagan and Clinton reminds me
of the adage of -

Political philosophers, Gilbert and Sullivan, who said -

"Things are not always what they seem, skim milk
masquerades as cream."

And so we have those who believe that increased
bureaucracy to higher deficits under Reagan
should be seen as a complete failure.

While Clinton is perceived to be a good bureaucracy
thrasher because in his 8 years the size of his
executive branch workforce dropped more than 10%
from 2.9 million to 2.6 million.

Under President Reagan, 1981 - 89, the size of the
federal government increased by any measure. Executive
branch civilian employment, which covers almost everything
except the uniformed military and the Postal Service,
was 2.109 million in 1981 and 2.129 million in 1989.

Total federal government employment rose during this
period from 4.9 million to 5.3 million.

Reagan inherited a federal budget of $599 billion in revenue.
$678 billion in spending, and a deficit of $79 billion.

He left office with a federal budget of $909 billion in
revenue and a little less than $1.1 trillion in spending, and
a deficit of $155 billion.

In his 8 years, under Bill Clinton, the size of his
executive branch workforce dropped more than 10%, from
2.9 million to 2.6 million.

There's more at:

http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2015/01/ronald-reagan-policy-political-failure

cont'd ...

Some will look at Reagan's increased bureaucracy to
higher deficits as a complete failure while others
might argue that Reaganomics saved Bill Clinton's
Presidency.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/may-23/allan-ryskind-how-reaganomics-saved-bill-clintons-/

cont'd ...

Oooops. Sorry here's the link again:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/may/23/allan-ryskind-how-reaganomics-saved-bill-clintons-/

Reagan is a hero for Republicans not so for Democrats
Poor man fell foul of that illness we aged all fear, cruel way to go
Hope my view Trump may be in the early stages is wrong

Oh my goodness I continue to find Trump a hoot.

This is from his 4th of July speech yesterday;

“In June of 1775, the Continental Congress created a unified army out of the revolutionary forces encamped around Boston and New York … The Continental Army suffered a bitter winter of Valley Forge, found glory across the waters of the Delaware, and seized victory from Cornwallis of Yorktown. Our army manned the air, it rammed the ramparts, it took over the airports, it did everything it had to do, and at Fort McHenry, under the rockets’ red glare, it had nothing but victory.”

So in 1770 it took over the airports? Mankind did not start flying before the 1900s.

Ah priceless.

Foxy,

There are literally thousands of statistics put out by and about the US government each year. If one has an agenda (eg criticise Reagan) then its not hard to troll through those statistics and find some that show things weren't perfect. Then combine that with a little sleight of hand and economic illiteracy in the readership and hey presto, Reagan was a failure.

For example, the bureaucracy increased by about 10%. Seems significant until you note that the population did too. Why didn't the author mention that? Venal or ignorant?

Or the deficit increased. Whenever someone gives you the raw numbers on that type of issue, they are either too dim to understand what they're doing or utterly economic illiterates. With this author, maybe both. In fact, as a percentage of GDP the deficit remained basically unchanged.

The author sets up straw-men and even then has to fudge to knock them down.

Reagan is a hero to Republicans and to anyone who understands the latter 20th century for two reasons:

1. He (helped by Thatcher) resurrected free-market capitalism and the US economy with it. At the close of the Carter era, capitalism was utterly out of favour. It was generally assumed that Japan would surpass the US soon. People like JK Galbraith said the Soviet economy was overtaking the US. Cater talked of the the best years being behind the nation and decline was only to be managed. Reagan rejected that and revived US capitalism. By the end of his term, the US had gone from the moribund economy to the most dynamic economy on the planet.

/cont

/cont

2. He won the cold war. Ever since his 'Time for Choosing' speech he had determined to confront communism, not try to live with it. This cost money since his method was to bankrupt the Soviets. Again, at the beginning of his term, the US was still trying to live with defeat in Vietnam and humiliation by Iran. The Soviets were so confident of their position that they'd invaded Afghanistan. By the end of his term, the US was clearly the most powerful nation on the planet and the Soviets were on the brink of utter collapse.

Reagan was the most consequential leader post WW2 and ranks in the highest echelons of US presidents. Let's weigh that up. Defeat the Soviets and ended a 40 year cold war versus didn't reduce the size of the public service. Hard to choose which is more important...hard for some at least.

Regressive Marxist again showing their colours for 4th July. Happy to remain peaceful and celebrate 8 years with Obama but now throwing tantrums because they have a decent President.

runner,

Free speech and all that?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-07-06/donald-trump-trade-war-targets-around-the-world/11273818 Runner think what you wish but try to stay in contact with reality
Being insulted by you is a warm and cuddly feeling, understanding your link to the real world is slim if any exists
The link, like every news story is opinion, but an opinion shared by more than you wish to think
Just maybe, another thread, indeed a few recently, talking of fears of recession, are about to become a nightmare

http://www.smh.com.au/world/north-america/trump-s-tangle-on-american-history-blamed-on-teleprompter-20190706-p524ql.html
Humor may be the best short term defense when Donald leaves the real world
He often does and maybe the day is close he will be unable to return

OK we had our own views
Even one that posting [me at least] about Trump, is some form of phobia on my part
I tend to think that highlights Trump supporters are shallow and do not even begin to understand him
We can only hope he gets a bomb prove reading aid, because if he continues to use his thoughts he will prove to us all, he maybe in the early stage of dementia

"I continue to find Trump a hoot."

Well you must have had a real giggle when the Obamessiah said there were 57 states in the USA or that they spoke Austrian in Austria.

But the funniest (or perhaps saddest) was Biden claiming t'other day that Russian interference in elections would never have occurred under his and Barry's watch.

Dear mhaze,

Oh look. you are addressing me directly. I thought you had promised not to ever do that again. I probably prefer you didn't. Oh well.

So Obama mixed up 47 states with 57. Are you really equating that with thinking there were airports during the War of independence?

Do you really think Obama would have ever made a similar mistake?

If you do then you are even more deluded than I thought you were.

One thing can not be denied, one side in this thread is wrong
And time will tell what one it is
Considered thought has died when it comes to politics
For all but the few, for heaven's sake the land of mums apple pie has even thought about Opera running for the white house
Anyone remember statesmen?
Obama was one, Trump is, at best a conman and a clown
His supporters ignore a truth, Russia, China, and North Korea, remain the enemies to the west they always have been
In a link above, read it, this self promoting stable geneus,spoke of minute men, taking control of the airports!
In the war of independence!
We all, every one of us, should hold every side of politics to account, understand what they are doing, and why
Or we betray ourselves Trump is a fraud

I wish we lived in an age of tolerance of the little things. You know what I mean? Not tolerance of the big items like race, sex, religion, or other politics. But tolerance of the little things. Everyone makes a fool of themselves at least a little bit, how much more are they seen for those always in the lime light, on the camera, or in the public. For our leaders in any country to make a mistake, and show they don't have all the details right send many people on the fritz of "I can't believe how stupid they are..." Or "look at this dumb a**..."

This isn't just to our leaders in the world but too often instead of talking about what they are doing right or wrong, people focus on whether they can say "nuclear" correctly, have a detail of a speech wrong instead of whether the meaning behind it was of value, or the actual proposals and policies are good or bad.

This is the easiest to see in politics because everyone is looking at how to make the other guy look bad, and never notice how their guy does foolish things too. Biting at the heels of everyone and anyone, over things that frankly don't matter.

We probably won't make it to an age to tolerate foolishness in our words, in our spelling, or in our actions. Even when those things have no greater impact then being a minor embarrassment to the person making the misstep. Why? Because people pride themselves on not making certain mistakes (even when they do), and have pet peeves on the smallest of matters that don't matter at all.

(Continued)

(Continued)

Let me put it another way. We all do foolish things accidentally on occasion. Don't make a big deal when another does the same. And when it comes to our leaders, our presidents, PMs, congressmen, and parliaments, don't sweat the small stuff that doesn't matter. Focus on what they are doing that matters, whether it is positive or negative. And even then it's probably best in a culture of backbiting criticism over everything to make more note of the things done well. Otherwise the leaders will stop caring or stop listening to the people. Or worse they will make it their cause to stand against those people. Don't be the same. We already have too much of that already.

"Obama was one, Trump is, at best a conman and a clown"

Sorry Belly, but they're actually ALL a bunch of muppets

'runner,

Free speech and all that?'

u mean like Issy Foxy? Oh no just the right to throw tantrums for the true haters.

"Anyone remember statesmen?
Obama was one."

Now 1 know you have lost it Belly. Careful old mate, too many statements like that, & they'll send the men in white coats around to pick you up.

Not-now-soon interesting, and quite true, even if it hurts
Not one of us can claim to have never got it wrong, in fact we do get it wrong often
We may wish to avoid it, put on the public face we use to hide behind, but we still understand we got it wrong
Nothing ventured nothing gained, so here I go again,walking on thin verbal ice
See truly, honestly, even earnestly, think Donald Trump is a very real danger to America
And that in a country powered by blind jingoism and showmanship, he is not even near honest enough to be in the white house, other than as a visitor in a tour group, and then closely guarded
Obama, REMEMBER his second term saw both houses held by his opponents, he could do little
REMEMBER the sheer joy the world felt when he won
Now, right now, we in the free world NEED an American leader who is not used by Russia China [our enemy in a coming ww3] or the little fat fool in that slave nation North Korea

http://www.smh.com.au/world/north-america/white-house-inept-incompetent-says-uk-ambassador-in-embarrassing-trove-of-leaked-memos-20190707-p524x2.html
Even Trumps bigest fan should read this
To have a man who serves British foriegn interests hold such a view of the man is telling

I disagree, Belly.

What we need are governments that work together. A house divided into camps that try to play power games instead of help the people they represent are the stain of society. Having a president that doesn't fit that mold has it's own refreshing sentiment to it. But it doesn't change the matter that the parties at play are intreasted in working against eachother and dividing the country against the other parties. More interested in that then in helping run the government smoothly, working together for the common goal of the people, or even to represent their people at all instead of representing the party they define (regardless how the people who voted them in feel about all the party platforms).

Regarding Trump and Obama. Let's go back one more. I remember Bush Jr in office. Rarely was there anything in the media that supported him. To much attention on how he pronounced things and little about the policies unless they were critisms. Then Obama came. As far as the media was concerned the president that could do no wrong. There was only praise to him. And with only praise that raises a bit of a red flag. Expecially sines just as little was given attention to his actions and policies (aside from the healthcare reform). Now Trump is in office, and the media is again in a frenzy. It's a great tornado of a frenzy. Trump can do nothing right. Absolutely nothing. Such a lack of good actions in the main media is a red flag just as much as there was nothing said wrong with Obama.

I'm watching it all, and I'm telling you. Something is off, so don't trust the media. Pay attention to the things that matter, policies, legislations, foreign affairs.

If the leader of a country is one that can do no wrong, or can do no right, then then look to other media sources to see if the rest of the story can be found. Because if they have no critism, or only critism then there is something your not being told.

Not-now-soon every post in this thread made by me is my view period end
Fact is you ask for government by SAINTS how dowe find them?
We have had statesmen here, Menzies they say was one Hawke and Whitlam belong in that group,without the internal knifing Rudd would have been
Howard was
We live in a system that is decaying around the edges
But voter apathy can take most of the blame

Dear Not_Now.Soon,

Obama got an easy ride? My goodness what a short memory you must have. The whole birther movement was extraordinary and some of the most influencial pundits were running with it.

Obama also got a lot of stick from the 'left' for his drone program particularly targeting US citizens.

The reason why Trump cops so much is because he is a disgusting human being full stop. One of his best mates is finally facing charges for procuring underaged girls.

This is what Trump said of him;

“I’ve known Jeff for fifteen years. Terrific guy. He’s a lot of fun to be with. It is even said that he likes beautiful women as much as I do, and many of them are on the younger side.”

Hells bells.

The fawning of many of those on this forum for Trump is disturbing but understandable as there is a real thirst for an authoritarian figure among them.

I would be ashamed to have a person like him as the leader of my country. A crass, bullying, sexual abusing, blowhard, thick, corrupt, nepotistic, prostitute procuring scumbag.

Obama was very different than Trump, he was in fact living in the real world
Trump may well think Washington crossed the Delaware river in a Helicopter but in truth he did not
Wish his followers would take an honest look at him, but know it is beyond them
There is the sad truth
People grab hold of the leg of the next person they THINK is saying what they are, then dumping all their twisted wants and wishes on him/her even if they are in fact, [as is the case with Trump] a flim flam man

We live in a system that is decaying around the edges
Belly,
yes, now admit to who started this rot !

"REMEMBER the sheer joy the world felt when he [Obama] won
Now, right now, we in the free world NEED an American leader who is not used by Russia China [our enemy in a coming ww3] or the little fat fool in that slave nation North Korea

Let's examine Obama's foreign policy successes against those countries Belly hilariously thinks are playing Trump:

Russia - invaded and annexed Crimea. Invaded and all but annexed the Donbass. Shot down a civilian plane with 300 odd lives lost. Re-established itself in the Middle East via military assistance to Syria. Attempted to intimidate Poland by cutting off energy supplies. Allowed to buy 20% of US Uranium assets (after appropriate bribes to the Clintons)

Obama's response - a few ineffectual sanctions and promises that he'd be even more accommodating once those pesky elections were out of the way.

China - allowed to establish military bases within the 9-dash line. Allowed to cheat on trade to build huge trade surplus. allowed to steal military and intellectual secrets. Probably the party behind theft of Hillary's emails.

Obama's response ...basically nil.

North Korea - Allowed to develop nukes and their delivery vehicles.

Obama's response - a few ineffectual sanctions followed by a big yawn.

Elsewhere, Obama pulled troops out of Iraq for electoral purposes which allowed the rise of ISIS. Failed to note the danger of ISIS and nip it in the bud. Result - thousands upon thousands dead and enslaved.

Failed to show any interest in stopping the Syrian civil war. Result - thousands upon thousands dead.

Failed to offer any support for a popular uprising against the Iranian leadership

Started a war in Libya which resulted in its current mess and the great immigration debacle into Europe. Result - thousands upon thousands dead and return of slavery to that nation.

Obama was a disaster yet some blame Trump for failing to immediately fix all of Obama's messes.

indy in your world it was E G WHITLAM monster that you see in him was in fact a great man
Obama, no way we can compare the GingerBread man to him
Still a great man we await reality to bite Trump supporters after he is gone
IRAN who knew? that the country would be such an important tool in Trump's reelection
EASY go to war with some one, any one, it blinds voters every time

SR,

Re Trump and Epstein.

This story was being pushed by Fusion GPS a few years back. It went nowhere because there was nothing to it.

Still, since you make a habit of falling for Fusion GPS stories (Steele Dossier) why stop now?

As to Epstein, if he is in real trouble he can always offer a plea deal and implicate Hillary's friend Bill. But he should probably ask for extra security since many who've had the goods on the Clinton's have would up 'suicided'.

Trump seems demented, some of those who follow him are out to prove they are too
America now is flooded with movies about comic book characters, no surprise they elected one
In fact under Trump they have become a B Grade movie in real life
Not sure however if it is a comedy or a tragedy,

Dear mhaze,

So Obama was ineffectual because "North Korea - Allowed to develop nukes and their delivery vehicles."

Do you really believe the result of Trump kissing this tinpot dictator's backside will see the denuclearised peninsula that Trump keeps crapping on about?

In fact do you think he will give up a single device?

Nope. He is laughing all the way to the bank with the extra status he has gained.

God save us from fools.

This afternoon's SMH Trump reminds Fox [no fairdinkum] he got them where they are!
Seems a live broadcast report from London about the women's soccer win was a bit rude
Crowd in the background was heard yelling pluck Trump! or something like it
He too took offense at a Fox report about the conditions in a Texas concentration camp, whoops detention center
So the poor man wants to control ALL the media, as he gets nearer that chair in a retirement home strapped firmly down