It has been 112 years since J.B. Higgins made his historic ruling that employers must pay a minimum (basic) wage that allowed the average worker and his family to live in "frugal comfort". A wage that met "the normal needs of an average employee, regarded as a human being in a civilised community". In 1907 H V McKay the owner of the 'Sunshine Harvester Co' was one of Australia's richest and largest employers. The company also had a reputation for poor pay and conditions for its employees, McKay was growing fat by exploiting workers to the max.

It was a landmark decision that established the basic wage at a modest 42/- per week for the lowest paid workers in 1907. Here we are 112 years later and Bill Shorten and Labor fine it necessary to again argue the case for fair pay for the lowest paid workers. In six years of Conservative rule, with no wages policy, and despite their claims of an economic miracle under Conservative rule, there has been no increase in real wages, the number of working poor is ever increasing, the rich are getting even richer, profits are skyrocketing, as the poor grow even poorer.

In my opinion Bill Shorten and Labor are onto a winner with wages as a key election issue.

It has been 112 years since J.B. Higgins made his historic ruling that employers must pay a minimum (basic) wage
Paul1405,
It has been 30 years since I've been arguing that we also need a salary ceiling for those on public funding.
Were this to be implemented, the present minimum wage would increase dramatically without any actual raise.
I believe it is sometimes called economic management !

Dear Paul,

The Fair Work Commission has handed down its
annual ruling on Australia's minimum wage -
raising it by 2.4% to $672.70 a week. This
means an increase of $15.80 per week for
the 1.8 million workers currently on the
basic wage.

Looking at the basic wages around the globe -
Australia stacks up rather well:

Australia - $17.70 per hour
UK - $14.66 per hour
NZ - $`4.22 per hour
France - $14.98 per hour
Germany - $13.17 per hour
Canada - $10.45 - $13.81 per hour
US - $10.08 per hour
Japan - $10.01 per hour
Mexico - $5.50 per hour
Czech Republic - $3.93 per hour
Brazil - $341.16 per month
India - $3.09 - $7.44 per day

Aren't you glad you live in Australia?

Labor's onto a real vote winner.

cont'd ...

My apologies - NZ's wage should read - $14.22 per hour
not $4.22.

'Aren't you glad you live in Australia?

Labor's onto a real vote winner.'

Maybe Foxy. We are a blessed nation however if the idiotic greens/gw alarmist keep getting their way the of heating and cooling will certainly make $17p/h look pitiful. Certainly the minnimum wage is just one aspect of economic fairness.

Paul1405 Quote "In my opinion Bill Shorten and Labor are onto a winner with wages as a key election issue."

If people are stupid enough to vote Labor just to get a little more money now, watch how quickly they will wake up when their jobs go overseas the dollar value drops and they have to pay much more for products and services. Also taxes will have to rise and government services cut.

runer,

Who is it that fights for increases in our basic
wage? Think about it.

Forgot some idiot want to give the dole recipients $75 more, that would be a vote winner for Labor but a disaster for Australian taxpayers.

Hi Foxy, I have to correct you;

The (New Zealand) Government announced the minimum wage will increase to $17.70 an hour on 1 April 2019 – an increase of $1.20 per hour." That makes it $16.50 now.

Its all in the perception and expectation, should the minimum wage reduce to say $1.50/hour the argument from the Tories could be "I don't know what you are bleating about, you're getting twice as much as the Indian minimum."

Think of those on the pension; the minimum wage would be nice.

Dear Paul,

Good to hear that NZ has upped the anti.

It would indeed be great if the pension would be raised
here as well.

Foxy, Paul, it matters not at all what workers would like the minimum wage to be. It really doesn't matter very much what a worker needs to achieve a reasonable standard of living. What matters is what an employer can afford to pay. If the employer can not afford to pay the rate, there will be no job.

What we need to do is continually increase individual productivity, to enable the employer to pay more per hour as he is getting more product per hour. Without this the employer will no longer exist if the wage is increased.

We have seen this with much of our industry, particularly recently with our car industry. When the workforce gets too greedy, without achieving increased productive to pay higher wages, the job disappears.

The case in New Zealand looks very much like a silly lady, with no concept of the requirement of productivity funding any increase in affordable wage, granting an increase that will put a lot of particularly lower paid workers out of work. I will watch with interest.

Who is it that fights for increases in our basic
wage? Think about it.
Foxy,
The very same people who then take it all back again via higher charges !

Hi Foxy,

Why I say this is a winner for Labor, is not because they should be directing policy of 'personal economic concerns' at the lowest paid, people who in the majority vote Labor anyway. Rather Labor will target middle Australia, the battlers on $90k/year with the message "you are economically missing out, and its all the fault of this government", The other winner for Labor is the environmental issue which is very high on the agenda of concerns for middle Australia. The boarder security issues which is the Coalitions Trump card is slipping down the list. The first two issues are here and now, whilst boarder security is a yesterday issue. Of course the lack of unity from the Coalition parties is not helping them.
If the Coalitions wants to lose the election (which they will anyway) just tell middle Australia the Mexicans get $5/hour so think yourself lucky, it would go down like a lead balloon!

Ok, the minimum wage goes up by $10/week for argument's sake. That then triggers a $ 50 rise for public servants & a $5000 rise for senior bureaucrats & politicians.
A classic scenario of the dog chasing its tail.
Were Govt salaries frozen for a minimum of three Govt terms, the boost to the local economy would be that costs would not rise but the standard of living would. the lower wage earners need an increased spending power, the high salary earners don't, they have it already.
We need to invigorate spending in the lower wage demographic. The economy will improve along with social issues & it will reduce crime & subsequent costs to society.
Keeping on asking for higher wages is economic mismanagement.

There's some hype about getting equal pay for women right now.
I'm all for it, bring all the male public servant's salaries down to that of the women. Problem solved !

Dear Paul,

As far as I can see the Libs will lose this upcoming
election. The mess that they're currently in - trying
to present a united front is not working - what with
the Turnbull interview on the BBC, then so many leaving
Parliament. Then there's the Julia Banks interview
coming up on Sunday with "60 Minutes." Things are
spiralling downward. They need a miracle. People are not
longer taking them seriously.

The high minimum wage in Australia is one of the main reasons kids are not getting jobs. The ones who are getting jobs are those offering to work for NOTHING during a trial period.

Wages are just like any other cost to business; if an employer pays $17 and hour, he has to get at the very least the equivalent of what the employee is costing him. If he doesn’t, he doesn’t need that employee, which is why so many small business proprietors - the biggest employers – are not hiring, but doing it themselves or with family.

Add all HR regulations, insurance etc, and inexperienced fresh from school kids have priced themselves out of the market. All of you who approve of mass immigration should think about that as well. There are people who will work for less, who don’t care about our labour laws, and will take cash and pay no tax. Everyone used to our rule of law values and fair go misses out. And it’s only just starting.

People who want to work will always get jobs -
even if it means getting paid less and having
more than one job. It's the mentality that "Nope,
not worth getting up out of bed for that sort of
money," that many have - and there are entire
families that have always lived on the dole for
generations. It's funny how when you look around
it's always "foreigners," who are driving our taxis,
our buses, our trains, building our roads, working
in our hospitals and aged care facilities - and yet
they're the ones being accused of taking öur jobs".
Ask the farmers what would they do without backpackers?
Where are the locals? Out in queues at Centrelink?

People who want to work will always get jobs
Foxy,
That's just idealistic jargon. We can safely say that only a very tiny percentage of people actually WANT to work. The greater majority HAVE to work to make ends meet.
We need Apprenticeships for young people. Pay the highly paid bureaudroids less & use the money for job schemes. That is the only way to stimulate the economy.

numerous people with arts degrees who can only get overpaid Government jobs. You can get degree in women's studies of all things. Learn how to be a complete victim, get an overpaid Government job and contribute nothing except sewerage to society.

runner,

People with Arts and Humanities degrees have a wide
range of jobs available to them. None of which qualify
as "sewerage." Except perhaps in your eyes.

They can work as - teachers, human resources
specialists, fpreign correspondents, journalists,
advertising managers, technical writers, artists, events
organisers, in public relations, travel agents, real estate,
retail, sales and hospitality, counseling, be editors,
museum workers/curators, library administration, actors,
research assistants, chief of staffers for MPs, and the list
goes on - the possibilities are endless.

Hi Foxy,

In all my days of election involvement, from 1972 until now I have never seen a government with so few positive options. Traditionally the government closes the gap in the last two weeks before polling day. If that does not happen, then the Coalition are in for a white wash.

They can work as - teachers, human resources
specialists, fpreign correspondents, journalists,
advertising managers, technical writers, artists, events
organisers, in public relations, travel agents, real estate,
retail, sales and hospitality, counseling, be editors,
museum workers/curators, library administration, actors,
research assistants, chief of staffers for MPs, and the list
goes on - the possibilities are endless.
Foxy,
That's what they've doing for years & look where it brought us to ?

Individual,

Count your blessings. There's plenty of them
in comparison with other countries.

Foxy,
So, we just continue on this down-spiralling path ? To curb the useless & pointless draining the public purse we need to work on practical, useful, revenue-making jobs !
The majority of degree holders are of no benefit to society.

Individual,

Prove it!

Foxy,
easy, just open your eyes & mind to reality !

Individual,

I've done precisely that but I don't see
what you do. So I repeat - prove it!

Foxy,
Your reply is proof !

The SA Liberal government took another step towards socialism over the weekend by announcing that they would be pouring millions of taxpayer dollars into private enterprise wine production and hospitality in the Adelaide Hills.

The 'champions' of private enterprise and lack of government interference in their affairs were extremely grateful. The first to whinge about red tape and government regulation; the first to grab public money from the same government. Hypocrites! Fake private enterprise governments! The SA taxpayers will be paying for the far-to-high wages of the pseudo private companies.

Won't this move be an investment resulting in jobs,
and keeping a tourist industry alive.
Sounds like a good investment for the state.

ttbn,
What do reckon the catch is ?

Foxy,
I'm sure you'd be in favour of equal pay for women so, would you support those men on public service pays receiving the same as women & reduce their salaries ?
How about taking the present salaries as bench marks & reduce the men's salaries by a quarter & raising the women's salaries by a quarter. No extra money involved so it should not put any extra pressure on the Govt !
Oh & yes, freeze these salaries for three federal terms !

Personally I think the recession/Depression is now started. Wo betide the new government, it will win a poisoned chalice. We will have to re-start valuations, every saver will be raided, every investor will lose and Government will have to economise for many years.
Personally I believe that if each of us pensioners and poor people were to give just a few dollars a week then the very rich could become even richer.
Now retired, I intend to party! party! on holiday until I run out of money then "find" a Woolworths trolley (The biggest) and go on a treasure hunt.

Individual,

No catch. Just socialism.

Governments have no business handing public funds over to private enterprise. In the capitalist system, government and private enterprise should remain separate - just like the government and religion.

Public money should be used for the public good: services, infrastructure and welfare. Money lenders, banks and financiers, risk their own money (not other people's like government has done in this case and in many others).

If a private company needs capital to expand, the system dictates that they go to a bank or a private financier with a business PLAN. If that plan is a good one, the lender will decide if they should loan the money - risk their money in anticipation of a profit.

No such thing happens when politicians start slinging around money that is not theirs. If they lose other people's money, they don't suffer the loss. And, governments are notoriously bad at picking winners.

We will never know (because of the good old 'commercial in confidence’ lurk, even with OUR money) whether or not these businesses about to get our money went to a private lender, and were refused finance as is becoming more common in hard times. Or if they are just plain no-hopers with big ideas and no business sense.

And, be aware of this - one in three new small businesses in Australia fail in their first year of operation, two out of four by the end of the second year, and three out of four by the fifth year.

No government should be risking, or giving, taxpayers’ money to anything having such poor prospects.

Individual,

I don't believe in salaries based on gender.
Salaries should be based on the particular job
description, qualifications, experience needed,
and performance. In other words it should be
based on merit. Unfortunately in many cases
still, a man's merit is worth more than a
female's simply because of gender. That should change.

Foxy,
Whenever they apply that formula the feminists scream inequality !

Individual,

No, only insecure people do that.

Cut the crap. Women are paid the same as men if they are doing the same jobs. Women have the same opportunity as men to do dangerous jobs like mining, but few of them do, preferring the 'traditional' female jobs. The increasing number of men in these same jobs - child care, aged care, nursing etc - are paid the same as women.

A total injustice was recently perpetrated against an American retail firm, where checkout chicks demanded the same wages as storemen, who drove forklifts and performed heavy, often hazardous tasks.

The company said that there were no women in the stores, none had applied for the more demanding and more dangerous jobs, and offers for them to apply were rejected.

Nevertheless, feminist politics won the day, and real discrimination has occurred. I wonder if the blokes in the storerooms will be asking for transfers to the cushier jobs for the same pay.

Totally rubbish.

Do your research.

cont'd ...

The following link explains:

http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2018/nov/12/australian-men-earn213-more-than-their-female-colleagues-review-finds

JBowyer,
If, as you think, the recession has already started, now's the ideal time for a new government because they can safely do the exact opposite of what you think they have to! For instance, instead of raiding every saver, they could follow Rudd's example and credit them $900.

Hoovernomics (trying to balance the budget in a recession) doesn't work: it shrinks the economy and turns the recession into a depression. But massive deficit spending does work - it quickly revives the private sector by giving them more opportunities to make money. It works even better if the money is spent on things that will improve our future productivity, such as infrastructure.

cont'd ...

Sorry for the typo. Here it is again:

http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2018/nov/12/australian-men-earn-213-more-than-their-female-colleagues-review-finds

“Total rubbish” barks the termagant, then uses The Guardian as an example of ‘research’. Does she really think that people are going take any notice of someone who uses MSM only - extreme left at that - for ‘research’? Sadly, the answer is yes. Small mind; small life.

To get back to the theme of this thread, I wonder if its instigator, SJW and champion of workers that he thinks he is, gave any thought to his dear leader, Richard di Natale, and that paragon of virtue’s record on employing au pairs, and how much he paid .

Tsk, tsk, tsk...

Here's more on the gender pay gap:

http://www.wgea.gov.au/topics/gender-pay-gap

Aiden, exciting news if we get Shorten and especially if he gives me any money! My memory was Rudd took us from a surplus to a massive deficit with his free money? Of course being 71 I don't care, the debt can be paid by your Grandchildren.
I have certainly been impressed with the infrastructure spending in Australia of late but thank goodness for "Commercial in confidence". Without that the punters might have some concerns with adding to the deficit.
Then if we close coal plants down, quadruple electricity prices and commensurately increase gas prices we will get rid of so much manufacturing and food processing.This will reduce our carbon footprint and save the the world?
What are the chances of us being in so much debt that China builds it's own power stations here, farms and processes the food here and reduces your grandchildren to mendicants in their own land?
Bring on Billy Shorten I say although I suggest he has someone take out any words containing TH in his speeches.

Bill Shorten is talking big on wage increases as an election bribe. Now we all know wages are stagnant, and that prices are going up while pay and pensions are not. But growth that might enable better wage outcomes is pretty stagnant too. Despite mass immigration, GDP has barely moved - and per capita GDP is dead as it always is with mass immigration. There is a slowdown in the U.S, and China is adopting a Cold War attitude on trade. People are already talking 'recession'.

Not a good time at all to be looking for higher wages and complaining about inexperienced, unprepared youngsters not getting enough money when they are really not worth the minimum wage as it is.

sorry missed this one Paul, as Labor has it in the bag, LNP conseding defeat we will get a lift in the minimum wage
FEW complain about tax breaks for the rich
But get into it over true needy getting wage justice, weird stuff

Ah, I see folks - that our resident reprobate is back with
his usual oiled attacks.
ttbn laid off for a while but he just can't
help himself. He's got an itch that he can't help
scratching as far as I'm concerned. I really get to him it
seems but he always gets it wrong. The gender pay gap
that The Guardian quoted was given by the government
agency - WGEA ( Work Place Gender Equality Agency).

Never mind - keep on trying - if it makes you feel better.
This is the only place where you get to be boss. I
understand.

But get into it over true needy getting wage justice, weird stuff
Belly,
Cutting the top salaries by tens of thousands would do a hell of a lot more for the needy than giving them some meagre sum. Btw. how much will they get under Labor ?

Increasing the minimum wage is a decision to favour some workers by causing others to loose jobs and/or working hours. Since unions represent workers their concern is with the employed, not those seeking jobs and not those who loose jobs. Only workers pay union dues.

An experiment on increasing minimum wages has been running in Seattle, USA. After a succession of enforced wage increases, studies have shown that the net effect was negative for low-wage earners.

http://www.nber.org/papers/w23532.pdf

"we conclude that the second wage increase to $13 reduced hours worked in low-wage jobs by 6-7 percent, while hourly wages in such jobs increased by 3 percent. Consequently, total payroll for such jobs decreased, implying that the Ordinance lowered the amount paid to workers in low-wage jobs by an average of $74 per month per job in 2016."

Belly, Foxy, Paul1405,
Do you know by how much the minimum wage & old age pension will go up if Labor gets in ?

Yes. Wages and perhaps pensions will go up. But, so will taxes, refugees and illegal immigrants; there will be huge spending on climate change and consequently, a trashing of industry. On the other hand, the Coalition says it will cut income tax, but what will they tax to make up for it?

750,000 unemployed now. Heaps more from immigrants and illegals. Huge jump in welfare.

We don't have much choice this election. The only real difference is border protection. But who can be sure that that difference will remain? And both sides will sell off as much of Australia to China as they can. Im sticking with 'None of these'. At least I'll have a clear conscience.

Foxy, what are the chances of the Work Place Gender Equality Agency reporting that the gap is reducing and in a few years they can be closed? Or, that things are getting worse and worse and we are working our fingers to the bone, our organisation is down to the bare bones and we need additional funding?
Just asking for a friend.

Another difference worth mentioning.

While Labor has promised that public hospitals will provide free abortions, the Government has been 'called out’ (what a sanctimonious lefty expression) for not signing the UN International Women's Day Statement calling for better abortion access for women.

The child killers say “No government can truly support gender equality and human rights without supporting access to safe abortions and reproductive rights”. Twisted logic! What 'reproductive rights’ do people who do not want to reproduce want?

JBower,

The following link may clarify things:

http://www.wgea.gov.au/about-the-agency

cont'd ...

My apologies for misspelling your name.
It should have read JBowyer.

"The Agency is charged with promoting and improving gender equality in Australian workplaces."

Good to hear.

Here's one area where there's massive gender inequality - work related fatalities. Ten times more men per 100000 workers die on the job, so to speak.

Strangely I couldn't find anywhere on the Workplace Gender Equality Agency website where they said they were addressing that issue. Equally (that word again!) Safework Australia doesn't seem to even keep those statistics...or perhaps they'd prefer to hide the data.

Somehow I suspect that, if the numbers were reversed, we'd find a million articles and untold millions spent to fix it.

The three most dangerous industries are transport, agriculture and construction..industries where men predominate. I'm sure the agency is working to get more women into those deadly jobs...you know, to correct inequality.

But, unfortunately, the problem will never be fixed. Once a government creates a bureaucracy to fix a problem, it creates a constituency determined that the problem remain unfixed and therefore THEIR jobs unthreatened

What 'reproductive rights’ do people who do not want to reproduce want?
ttbn,
The alternative sex brigade should answer this or at least our resident Lefties should have a go at explaining !
I'm all for Govt funded pregnancy prevention, the cost would be irrelevant in comparison to eventual welfare expenses.

mhaze,

If you go into the Safework Australia link for construction -
under their "National Approach Strategy" you're told that:

"The Australia Work Health and Safety Strategy 2012 - 2022
has identified the construction industry as a priority due to
the high number and rate of work-related fatalities and
serious injuries."

"For a number of years, construction has consistently been
among the top few industries with the highest number of
serious claims. Since 2006 - 07 it has had the 5th highest
incident rate of serious claims of all industries."

"The strategy aims to reduce the incident of serious injury
by at least 30% nationwide by 2022 and reduce the number of
work related fatalities due to in jury by at least 20%.
The construction industry will play a critical role with the
inudstry unions - relevant organisations and the community
to reduce traumatic injury fatalities and injuries in the
construction industry.

http://www.safeworkaustralia.gov.au/construction

industries with the highest number of
serious claims.
Foxy,
Do you have a link relating to the number of fake claims out of all of them ?

cont'd ...

mhaze,

No matter what the industry - as long as people do get involved
and demand changes be made for the benefit of us all - be
it unions, relevant organisations, or the community - a
difference will occur with enough pressure placed. People of
both genders are moving into all sorts of jobs - be they
in construction, mining, politics, or whatever. Equality
benefits us all.

Individual,

You can contact Safework Australia regarding fraudulent
claims stats either online, by post or by phone:

http://www.safeworkaustralia.gov.au/about-us/contact

I'm sure that they will be able to help or guide you in
the right direction.

That really wasn't my point Foxy.

The point is that the so-called "Gender Equality Agency" ignores one of the most egregious examples of gender inequality. As do other government qangos (you quote from Safework but they don't mention gender in your quote or indeed address it in their statistics). The reason being that the inequality favours women and these agencies exist to favour women and thus are just fine with this particular inequality.

It is well known that one of the main causes of the so-called pay gap is that men work in highly paid but highly dangerous jobs while women avoid the danger but whine about the pay differential.

Agencies like this are just sops for those who rail against reality. Give 'em some money, make it look like we're doing something and that'll keep 'em quite for an election cycle or two.

Foxy, I was being smart but you knew that. Now I am well and truly on my backside after reading that page. I visualize a huge sumptuous building, hundreds of people, mostly female but with a smattering of the LGBTWTF, all well paid. All with the best workplace conditions that I never knew as a humble travelling salesman.
The joke is on me! Well done you!
Yes I brought it on myself and thank you for your courtesy.

mhaze,

The point that I was trying to make is that things
are changing and will continue to change.

Construction is Australia's 3rd
largest employer and its mostly a male-dominated sector.
A "boy's club."

Of course governments can do more as
can other authorities. I don't want to argue with you
on this matter. There's always reasons for why things
are why they are - use Google and some of the things
you're claiming will be answered for why things are
what they are for you via
available links.

Mining used to be strictly a man's job. Now
women are beginning to infiltrate the industry.
Sabina Shugg comes to mind - Director of Kalgoorlie
Boulder Mining, WA. Then We have Nicole Livingstone
Head of AFL - Women's Football. Complaining
about the fact that men are not getting a break -
in a male dominated industry? Perhaps the following
link may help:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-10-17/women-in-construction-government-can-do-more/10382932

Foxy,
You might not find this link of interest.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrity

JBowyer,

I take everything very seriously most of
the time. I often miss the points being made
in jest or tongue-in-cheek. I'm not that
experienced or sophisticated. I always prefer to
think that people are well-intentioned and have
been quite taken back to find out that not every
one is. Being on the forum - has been a learning
experience in more ways than one for me.

You Sir are a gentleman and I thank you for your civility as well.

Individual,

Thank You.

Well worth a read.

Much appreciated.

Foxy,

"use Google and some of the things you're claiming will be answered"

I'm not looking for answers. I already know the answers. I'm simply pointing out that this so-called Gender Equality Agency is only interested in one gender and only interested in the alleged inequities suffered by that gender.

I'm also pointing out that, now that we have a government bureaucracy dedicated to ferreting out alleged inequities, those inequities won't be resolved, because people's jobs rely on them not being resolved.

I was also pointing out that in other locations where minimum wages have been raised, studies have shown that the people most harmed were the very people the raise was meant to help.
Its a simple formula - raise the minimum wage and increase unemployment/underemployment.

supporters of wage cuts for the banks who are proven to be criminal], often say wage growth in any form, is wrong
Yesterday Andrew Robb, having lost his $800.000 a year job, working in China, took to his former party
He, like so many, supported low wages
Yesterday an international economist warned Capitalism post 2008 has ignored the underprivileged, maybe creating its own downfall without change

Belly,
In case you're one of those who haven't yet noticed that I have been advocating high salary cuts, particularly in the Public Service. Raising low wages is the exact wrong strategy. The only way to remove unaffordability for low wage earners is to bring the high wages down, not up !
How can we ever achieve competitiveness if employers can't sell their goods because of high wages ?
Cut the god damned insane salaries & the playing field will become self-levelling. Ask your mate Shorten to be bi-partisan to advocate that !
The unions are already asking for a $43/week raise, that's irresponsible. Get the unions to cut buraucrat salaries by $150/week & low age earners won't need a raise ! Just watch the costs come down.

Bill Shorten told Nine News that “$18.93 an hour for an Australian adult working full time is not enough."

Batty Bill obviously hasn't kept up with reports that it is ‘ enough’ to keep unemployed people unemployed. He also gushed “We want to make sure that women in Australia are paid as much as men”, totally ignorant of the fact that women doing the same jobs as men are paid the same as men. There is nothing stopping women doing the dangerous, dirty jobs some men do: the men who are also paid more than OTHER MEN as compensation for hazardous work.

The male/female wage disparity is a complete myth.

There is no shortage of examples of the effect of high minimum wages on employment. At the extreme end, Venezuela lost 40% of its retail stores when the socialist government forced up the minimum wage. Moodys has calculated that up to 160,000 jobs will be lost in California’s manufacturing sector alone if an increase to $15 is imposed there. A 'Washington Post’ survey showed that the same increase in the minimum wage would cost 47,000 jobs in just one wealthy county.

There are better suggestions than upping the minimum wage to help low-income workers:

Increase the tax-free threshold on personal income.
Reduce fuel excise.
Remove payroll tax and reduce business tax.

But, Comrade Bill has said that he will increase taxes, not reduce them, so he will have to actually jack taxes up further to pay to keep more people on the dole. Politics doesn't get more stupid than the Labor sort.

indy stop, no use trying to tell me high profits must come before fair wages
The incoming Labor government understands the economy can not prosper if wage stagnation stops consumers consuming
Wages makeup a big part of the economy and spending is stagnating along with our economy
No lesser people than the reserve bank and others hardly ALP stooges are reminding us of the impacts of low wages
Once saw a poster, in this or another long gone forum with the name *reality check* we could all do with that here and now.

indy stop, no use trying to tell me high profits must come before fair wages
Belly,
show me where I advocated that !

individual, WTF do you think the effect of cutting wages would be on profits?

__________________________________________________________________________

ttbn,
What's enough to keep unemployed people unemployed isn't enough to get them working again.

If demand were fixed, higher wages would indeed equal fewer jobs. But there's no reason the government can't act to increase demand.

As for the "better suggestions" I notice you're ignoring the best one of the lot: reducing (or narrowing the base of) the GST. The sooner this insidious tax is phased out, the better!

and as we all know, its very easy for business to cover the increased costs of a rise in the minimum wage. All they have to do is go out into their storeroom and pick a few extra bucks of the money tree out there. Everyone knows that every business has money tree out the back.
Right!

Of course I feel sorry for those businesses that don't have such a tree and even more sorry for their employees. Because they'll be looking to cut back on costs and employee costs are one of the biggest and easiest to cut. And if they can't do that then closure is always an option. Or perhaps the government can provide all businesses with a money tree.

Increase minimum wages = increase un/under employment.

But people like Shorten, who've never been anywhere near running a rooly-trooly business are utterly clueless on that point.

Let us by all means try to analyse the Labor policy of
increased wages.

1) Businesses will have more tax deductability by paying
higher wages.

2)People getting higher wages will be paying
more tax.

3) The government will have more money to spend
on essential services.

4) People earning more money will spend more.

5) This is good for businesses.

So it looks like
the cycle would be beneficial to all concerned.

Now is that really bad?

What do the rest of you think?

The winger and moaners who are happy to see the ever increasing number of working poor, Scum O' Morrison included, have never had a problem with escalating profits for the big end of town. In fact Scum O' and the rest, want to give their big business mates a $50 billion taxpayer funded handout, with a special $17 billion for the crimes at the big banks. Low wages is Coalition policy!

individual, WTF do you think the effect of cutting wages would be on profits?
Aidan,
Where did I say to cut wages. I said to lower high salaries ! Get it ? By lowering them the low wage will in effect have greater purchasing power because prices only ever rise with wages & not with salaries !
How many more centuries does it need for people to realise that increase after increase takes us to unsustainability ? In fact this is where we're at now & some people still don't want to do anything about except ask for more for the same & even less !

This proud trade unionist is proud to see fair go mate is not dead yet
A community must be based on a fair day's pay for a fair day's work
Not wealth building by reducing the living standard of those who do the producing
If the latter is how it is to work how long will it be before the producers force change

Not wealth building by reducing the living standard of those who do the producing
Belly,
Who is talking about reducing the living standard of the workers ? Not I. I'm on about reducing the high salaries of Public Service Top bureaucrats the savings of which should be used to start infrastructure that employs more workers. Lower the high salaries not the workers' wages !
We need to reduce costs, not make them higher !

Foxy,
What happened to 6) of your list ?
The one that says that prices & fees will go up at every pay increase & people invariably end up with even less in the pocket ?
Oh yes, very clever policies indeed !

Why are you et al so keen in turning the Aus$ into a south pacific Lira ?
Perhaps it is people like Belly who'd feel wealthier by having lots of big bank notes. Never mind that a loaf of bread would end up costing 5 million !

Wow, the level of economic ignorance here is off the charts.

Let's start with Paul. He thinks the opposition to increasing the minimum wage is due to the 'need' to support the big end of town. Paul, gallant social justice warrior, wants to support the little guy against the big guy by increasing minimum wages.

But the big corporations don't give a damn about minimum wages. How many people working for the banks or the big miners or big tech do you suppose are on minimum wage? Any advances on zero? Sure some big businesses employ some minimum wage staff but for the most part not. An increase in minimum wage will have little to no effect on big business and therefore they couldn't care less if it goes up.

But Paul needs to think he's battling the baddies so mere facts won't dissuade him.

As to facts, ponder this:

* over 70% of all employees work in small to medium sized business. 70%!! Small businesses are those employing less than 20 people. Your local cafe, dress retailer, corner store, restaurant.. that type of thing.

* a little shy of 80% of people on minimum wage work in retail, and food preparation and serving establishments – restaurants, cafes, dress shops, chemists etc.

When you get your coffee today you'll be served by either the owner of the store or someone he employs on minimum wage (for the most part). You won't be served by someone suppressed by big business, despite Paul's fantasies.

Now it might be all very well to want the owner of that cafe to shell out more from his pocket to help out his minimum wage employee. After all, for class-warriors like Paul, the employer is a class enemy and should be forced to pay. But the employer isn't exactly lighting cigars with dollar bills.

So the reaction of the employer might well be to apologise to his employee while explaining he can no longer pay the higher wage bill so the job is gone or the hours are cut.

/cont

/cont

The study I linked above from Seattle shows exactly that happening. But you don't want that to be true so it’s ignored. But it’s just one among many such studies.

The Pauls of this world imagine they are battling for the little guy against the corporate giants. They are actually battling to make the little guy littler.

Now Foxy seems to think there’s a virtuous circle around the government decreeing that wages will rise.

1. Business will get a tax deduction says Foxy. Well yes, because wages are a cost and costs are deductible in the sense that they reduce profit and businesses are taxed on profit. Lower profit = lower taxes. When a butcher buys a kilo of meat to sell, the cost of that meat is a deduction. But the butcher doesn’t think that, if he paid more for the meat he’d get a bigger deduction!! The tax rate for small business is 25% (or soon will be). That means that when our café is forced to pay $1/hr more to his employee, the business’ profit declines by that dollar and his tax bill declines by 25 cents. The business is still out by $0.75
2. Foxy thinks that the employees will pay more tax on their new higher pay. But, in the main, minimum wage earners don’t pay tax because of the tax-free threshold and LITO so no extra tax for the government there.
3. So rather than “more money to spend on essential services” the government will have less. They get less tax from the café but don’t get any extra from the employee. Additionally some of those employees will no longer be employees, so higher dole payments.
4. “ People earning more money will spend more.” True. But the café owner is earning less so will spend less.
5. So no advantage for business. Quite the opposite. In the study I mentioned and also now being played out in New York where minimum wages were also increased, up to 10% of small cafes and restaurants closed because they couldn’t cover the additional costs.

/cont

/cont

So LESS economic activity.

It’s all very easy for unscrupulous politicians to play Robin Hood to the ignorant partisans. They seem to be striving for the little guy and perhaps some of the more clueless among them really believe it. But study after study shows pretty much no one wins from government mandated increases in minimum wages and the people who suffer the most are those whom the rise was claimed to help.

Individual,

You need to analyse pricing influences.

Prices are influenced by a variety of things - government
regulations, level of demand, level of competition, market
testing, external influences, price sensitivity in the
market, changes in customer demand, they all play a part. As
does the amount of money people have to spend.

Foxy,
Yes & that also includes high end public service salaries. They're simply too high & will prevent an economic level playing field.
Or are you in the belief that someone passing on emails & waiting for the next bureaucrat to wait for an email from yet more bureaucrats is worth more than a concreter or carpenter etc. who is out in the weather all day ?

Individual,

No. I believe a decent wage for a decent day's work.
But, you can't really compare salaries of people such as
surgeons saving lives, with those unblocking sewerage pipes.
Though both are important jobs. On the whole, a higher
credential does mean higher earnings, simply because of the
value the job markets places on it.

a higher credential does mean higher earnings,
Foxy,
So it should ! But I'm not talking about credentials, I'm talking about meaningless qualifications that do nothing more than climb the ranks in the Public Service Corporate sector by exploiting the Peter Principle !

Individual,

What "meaningless credentials" are you referring to?
I'm not familiar with those. I know how hard it is
to study and get qualified in any field.. It often
takes years of hard work, while people are working,
studying, supporting families, to get qualified. It's
not easy. And anyone who then brushes these qualifications
aside obviously has not gone through the process themselves.

If you want your achievements to be respected you have
to respect those of others. Yes, there are people who get
appointments (for whatever reason) that they don't always
deserve. That happens in all fields. But usually - promotions
are given for a good reason in most cases.
To making sweeping
statements about qualifications and promotions -
may simply reflect a case of "sour grapes".

And the more ill-feeling expressed - the less likely people
have of being promoted. Nobody wants to work with a "misery
guts.

Nobody wants to work with a "misery guts.
Foxy,
that's where your & my experiences differ. I have witnessed many times when newly posted PS rolled up in places they simply didn't want to be in yet they stayed for the required two years.
Why ? Because "the money's good" was the standard reply.
We even had a visit from a Govt bureaucrat showing us how to "get up the ladder".
The woman actually asked us what the first thing we looked at was in a job advertisement. When no-one in the room said anything she blurted out "how much it pays of course".
When I raised my hand & answered that we'd first look WHERE the job is & everyone nodded in agreement, she simply stared in disbelief !

Wish I could remember all the words or even the name Foxy, lets call it the farmers lament
Bet you find it is ten seconds
Indy brings it back to me often it has these words we will all be ruined in it
Country folk, some not all, as they age become overly convinced they are always right
And the world is wrong
Shorten, today, said wages and how they are spent, is 60 percent of our economy
In a little country hamlet, 60 years ago, the local shopkeeper, who welcomed customers with these words
*What can I take you for?*
Hired me a young kid, to put a concrete floor over what had been dirt, he said the railway workers wages had gone up, and they would be paying for the concrete and my 5 shillings for ten hours hard work

Belly,
When you go to Indonesia Aus$ 100 will make you an instant Millionaire ! Is that why you're in favour of wages going up continuously to reach the same goal ?

indy are you in favor of price/profit rises
Do you the reducing our lifestyle to like that of the mentioned country is a good idea
Are you content to see low income earners live a lower standard of living forever

Belly,
How do you come to that idiotic conclusion ?

If there were much less people in Australia and everyone had their own land then there would be no need for a minimum wage or unemployment benefits. If you don't work the land or produce something that someone wants you don't eat.

There are a number of policies throughout history often Locke Liberal in nature that have lead to the conflicts of modern society. The different parties end up pointing their fingers at the other side. If everyone owns their own land they are responsible for their own survival.

Australia would have the highest minimum wage in the world if the extreme socialist, Bill Shorten introduces his “living wage”. France and Luxembourg currently have that 'honour’.

The thing that the socialist have always feared is that people will be rewarded on efforts and results. Instead they always appeal to the lowest common denominator.

Like churches runner bludging off society without effort and giving no results. Producing paedophiles, along with a load of mumbo-jumbo.
I asked before runner, but you never answered, where does your church hide its paedophiles?

Minimum wage is also a way to make to poorly qualified unemployable for a first job. A way of causing marginal job's to get reduced hours or disappear entirely.

Whilst the idea of a living wage makes sense so to does the idea that the kind of jobs which are subject to the minimum wage probably should never be long term roles.

Maybe the issue could be tackled in some other way than no minimum wage but there are some good reasons for making it easier for employers to take a chance on those with no work experience or who for some other reason need the employment experience and history more than they need to be self supporting at that point in time.

R0bert

Trying to paint Bill Shorten as an "extreme socialist" is laughable. So too is the implication that he's unaware of the importance of productivity. His union experience disproves that, though of course his enemies completely forgot about that once they realised there was no evidence of criminality!

Rising wages encourage businesses to invest in the equipment to make their workers more productive. And though, all other things being equal, higher wage costs are bad for business, we must keep in mind that all other things are not equal. For example the negative impact of higher wages could be balanced out by the positive impact of lower interest rates.

The constant raising of the Dollar will eventually morph it into a Rupiah !
Just as natural stupidity being enhanced by indoctrinated stupidity has provided the ultimate morons !

Aiden yes true however the use of that lefty fear and loathing stuff highlights it user knows very little
Trump and before him the tea party started using it Gobbles like, it never needed to be true
Some fall for it
Few here Know Bill, I once did, after the victory, after LNP jumps over the cliff it created itsself, Shorten will be much liked and trusted

Rising minimum wages are not the only factor at play here but a significant contributor to the trend.

https://thumbor.forbes.com/thumbor/1280x868/https%3A%2F%2Fblogs-images.forbes.com%2Fedrensi%2Ffiles%2F2018%2F07%2Fmcdonalds-1200x783.jpg

R0bert

RObert take the s off in the https, then your link will work
Like to follow every link

This. So wish we had images here.

http://thumbor.forbes.com/thumbor/1280x868/https%3A%2F%2Fblogs-images.forbes.com%2Fedrensi%2Ffiles%2F2018%2F07%2Fmcdonalds-1200x783.jpg

Worked this time RObert, and it spoke to me
At my birth the Navy, that is pick and shovel men, worked hard but had a job
One backhoe can do the work of a few dozen now
So can we up production, cut costs/jobs and still sell our products forever?
Do we want to

individual,
>The constant raising of the Dollar will eventually morph it into a Rupiah !
What a weird claim! The dollar is not being constantly raised, and nobody is proposing doing so.

We're genuinely much more productive than the Indonesians at the moment. That may change in future, but if so, it will be them catching up to us rather than us being dragged down to their level.

______________________________________________________________________________________

runner,
>The thing that the socialist have always feared is that people will be rewarded on efforts and results
It's generally the opposite: socialists want the people who do the work to be rewarded more, and those who supply the capital to be rewarded less.

Aidan,
Just because you're not yet affected doesn't make things better for those who are.
When labour costs go up the currency de-values ! Deceitful financial graphs are not showing the unproductive factor from wage rises.
Or, are you saying the Aus$ is not responsible for all the shut-downs of Australian industries ?
Or, are you one of those people who think because things don't happen within a 24 hour period they don't happen ?

Indy, seems your National Welfare Fund got gobbled up over 30 years ago, and the dosh went to consolidated revenue. Then Howard spent it on a boost to war mongering.

My research has shown that the average old folk can live on $20 per day. My call for bring the pension down to about $300/week was excessive, a figure of $300/fortnight would be sufficient. In the form of a debit card of course, so to curtail the extravagant spending on luxuries many pensioners indulge in, drinking down at the RSL for one, getting into expensive shouts with a dozen others, disgraceful.

Did you know, they discovered an old aged pensioner in Sydney in her 80's who had amassed a fortune of over $240,000 from her aged pension payments! disgraceful.

individual,
>Just because you're not yet affected doesn't make things better for those who are.
Huh? WTF are you trying to claim, and what assumptions are you making about me?

>When labour costs go up the currency de-values !
All other things bing equal, that would be correct. But reality is far more complicated, and labour costs are just one factor of many.

>Deceitful financial graphs are not showing the unproductive factor from wage rises.
What graphs are you referring to. Do you think graphs showing the wage share of GDP are deceitful?

>Or, are you saying the Aus$ is not responsible for all the shut-downs of Australian industries ?
Not all of them. Even if its value halved it wouldn't've been enough to save much of the TCF industry. We should accept that for low value work it's often better to rely on imports. We should also accept that what was once high value work sometimes becomes low value work due to technological change and overseas industrialization.

However, when the Aus$ is overvalued (as in the Gillard-Abbott era when needlessly high interest rates pushed up its short term value at the expense of its long term value) it is extremely damaging to Australian industries.

>Or, are you one of those people who think because things don't happen within a 24 hour period they don't happen ?
No, but nor am I one of those people who assumes there to be a long term trend which there's no evidence of.

Wanna know how to increase wages?

"U.S. employers posted nearly 7.6 million open jobs in January, near a record high set in November. ...
The number of open jobs now outnumbers the unemployed by roughly 1 million. In the 18 years that the data has been tracked, there were always more unemployed than job openings until last year."

"US wage growth hits nine-year high".... http://www.bbc.com/news/business-45448323

Nah...let's get the government to just mandate the rises instead. That's much more sustainable </sarc>

Paul/Foxy this much you can count on, Shorten is our next Prime Minister
Wage justice will be one result
You too, can bank on a Liberal crisis
Not however as bad as the Nationals can expect
Right now, in spite of its Sydney troubles, the greens are out in every National coastal seat, my mob got a 15 percent swing inn the last state election
And will do better, maybe not winning, working rural voters are doing it hard and wagerises are front and center

Dear Belly,

NSW seems in a bit of a mess politically at the moment.

I'll be watching the election results with great
interest next week-end in between looking after the
grand children (sleep-over time at our house).
I'm not sure who will win at this stage - but I don't
think that the mess the Libs and the Nationals are in
currently is doing them much good.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-03-19/researchers-write-open-letter-on-benefits-of-faster-wage-growth/10912998
Well woreth the read this enforces that even those in fulltime work need a wage rise
Those on minimum surely do even more
Foxy up early to get my campaign trailer out there so bumper to bumper travellers can see it
Yes it will be close not bothering to post in the thread about this
But while bothsides are full on we are talking together without bias at pre polling