The Left in Australia and the world faces a number of serious challenges.

I submit that the Left end of the political spectrum in Australia is increasingly without purpose and without strategic direction.

I submit that the Left of Australian politics faces a most peculiar challenge. That being to develop an ideological narrative that brings together its inchoate campaigns and disparate activists under the one banner.

Our lives over the past three decades have been largely shaped by neoliberal structural reforms. Not only within Australia but throughout the world it has been a central tendency of political, social and economic life.

There are many reasons why this tendency should be resisted; because it promotes a crass conception of self; because it tears at the social and cultural fabric that makes life worth living; because it widens the divide between the obscenely wealthy and the rest; because it offers no solutions for the multiple, perhaps existential, crises facing humanity; because it doesn't even offer a sound economic doctrine as shown by financial volatility and lower trend rates of economic growth relative to the post war Keynesian era.

The Left has got neoliberalism wrong; terribly wrong. So wrong that leftists the world over observe in awe as neoliberal austerity marches onward despite the global economic crisis.

A truly great threat to us all is the propaganda driven dribble like this thread
Truth will always matter
And it will always be true some can be fooled by any untruth
American extremism, driven first by tea party lost
Hijacked by Trump, is a very real danger to democracy and our very freedom
A right dictatorship is a very real threat when any one who cares for others id branded left

I'm not sure how a socialist party (Labor) could have anything BUT a socialist manifesto. That's what they are all about – socialism.

Labor is not “without purpose”; its purpose is higher taxes, more control, bigger government, open borders and and many other very nasty purposes.

Voters are the only ones who can throw a spanner in the increasingly Hard Left Labor machine. But they won't do that because they are fed up with the Liberal party's incompetence and shift to the Left. Who wants two Labor parties? I don't understand Labor voters at all, but I suspect that they and anyone else with socialist tendency would think that, if we are are really going to bugger up the country, let's go with Labor, which has proved itself so much better at buggering up in the past.

My contempt for the thread needs explaining
I AM ALP all my life and it has not been a short one CONSERVATIVES used that term to harm Labor
It works, this world this country is not ready for Socialism
Being anti Conservative only says we want a better world a caring world
Not a dream that has always turned in to a nightmare for working class people

Doing a fact check on whether Labor's policies are
socialist the following link provides the answers:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-09-20/fact-check3a-are-labor27s-policies-socialist3f/8948552

And here's another link on whether Bill Shorten is a
socialist:

http://theconversation.com/mis-red-why-bill-shorten-is-not-a-socialist-91752

The ABC can make decisions on whether or not someone is a socialist only for themselves. The rest of us will make up our own minds - apart from Foxy?

ttbn,

In a political millieu swirling with claims and
counter-claims, fact checking can provide an
antidote to ignorant, wrongheaded and deliberate
falsehoods.

You may prefer to "make up your own mind," most
thinking people like to assess the accuracy of
claims by politicians, public figures, advocacy
groups and institutions engaged in public debate.

The ABC along with a collaboration with RMIT
University provide a transparent account in
fact-checking with an Australian focus that helps
people to make up their own minds by providing
them with accurate information to make informed
choices.

Foxy, Belly,

Socialism is by definition:

a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.

With Shorten's tax and spend, he is by definition increasing the role of the government in the control and ownership of the means of production and distribution. Shorten is by definition a socialist, and until recently the labor party used to sing the "red flag" at its meetings.

To claim that the labor party is not socialist is laughable.

SM,

Read the first link I gave.

Explains things for you.

"The ABC along with a collaboration with RMIT
University...."

100% Lefty 'collaboration'. Makes me shudder.

In this world we have Rupert Murdock Fox news Sky, about ten shock jocks and Trump
Masters of the lie, of false fear, of propaganda that would make Gobbles blush
This thread APPEARS to support my party
Even tells us we should grab the red shirt and become red ragers
BELIEVE this could be just another Conservative trick thread
Not enough Labor supporters or swinging voters, exist to EVER ELECT A SOCIALIST ALP.
We are about to win office, holding the very ground the Liberal party held at its birth
Any thought we want to become a very minor party supporting less than 5 percent of voters has to be misleading or silly
A Mainstream party Labor marches with the voters not against them

Shadow, is it "socialism" when you spend $37,000 to fly yourself from Canberra to Adelaide at taxpayer expense? We could ask Mathias Cormann that question, it puts him up there with Bronwyn Bishop and 'Coptergate'. Another case of a Liberal snout in the trough!

The ABC article Foxy linked rightly points out that there are myriad definitions of the word 'socialist'. So when someone calls for "A socialist manifesto" they really ought to define 'socialist'.

Previously, when Belly was fretting about being called a socialist I asked him to define the term. He was none too pleased at that thought. But fruitful discussion can't really be had unless everyone agrees on the definition or at least understands each persons definition.

In my definition of the term, Labor isn't socialist and hasn't been since the mid 1960s. I'd define Labor's position as being Social-Capitalist.

The problem for the left (at least in Australia) is that much of what it stood for and wanted 30 years ago has been achieved. Concurrent with that, it has been taken over by people less interested in achieving idealistic goals and more interested in their careers. So they have to constantly find new things to create differences with their opponents in order to convince their followers that change is vital and supporting them electorally and financially is vital - all heat and no illumination.

The same can be said of the right.

But...things are not going to remain good. Australia is headed for a dark place and when it gets there, there are going to be real fights over real issues as to how to arrest the decline and who suffers the greatest economic pain.

At that point the left will have found reason to unite around an "ideological narrative"...as will the right.

"I AM ALP all my life"

Didn't Belly once tell us he was once a communist.

Or was that a different Belly?

mhaze gee your thoughts seem powered by a lard burning candle in a tin
YES age about 12 to 16, not very bright then
Dreamer, grew up, have you any intentions of joining me
Sorry to inform you some ugly side effects can threaten the likes of you
Understanding
you have wasted a life by not using your brain is one
THAT WAS needlessly rude
But am I to behave any better than you
Gee I hope so, in matters that involve thinking at least

A disgraceful waste of money by the immigrant, Corman. They get more like Labor every day.

"The ABC article Foxy linked rightly points out that there are myriad definitions of the word 'socialist'."

That is because every entity given the definition "socialist" has left an appalling legacy. Believing that the next socialist reincarnation can be successful is like believing Jeremy Corbin can overcome his antisemitism. As if.

//Didn't Belly once tell us he was once a communist.// No.

mhaze yes still rethinking my rude reply
But I ask you this question
You agree you do not like me? take weak shots often?
End question start statement, * based only on your words* *I place no value on your intellectual ability's*
Question, is it your view my job is to take what I see as childlike insult without return serve*?
Sadly mhaze you can not do better, but thanks for proving that post after post

Weren't Labor party members great fans of the Swedish model in the 1980s? What a disaster that was.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-sweden-overcame-socialism-11547078767

But capitalism is the great evil, hence the global warming catastrophe fairy tales about how it will destroy the world in another century or so. Meanwhile Venezuela, with the world's largest oil reserves, is presently suffering a catastrophe dwarfing the fairy tales, another socialist failure.

Belly,

Wow. Quite the tantrum. I can see you don't like your little fibs pointed out.

Don't fret over insulting me - water off a ducks back. Or "like being flogged with a warm lettuce". As a life-long ALP man (chuckle) you'd know that quote, wouldn't you?

Paul,

Hilariously, 4 hours after Belly agrees that he once said he was a communist, Paul denies it. Paul continues his struggle with facts, let alone reality.

Fester,

I think the reason that there are so many definitions of 'socialist' is that there are so many versions of it. But people calling both Sweden and Cuba 'socialist' surely means that the term is useless

Hi Belly,

When I was about 18 I was keen on a girl who was a member of the 'Spartacus League' a hot communists she be. If sex was part of the manifesto then I was willing to be indoctrinated 2 or 3 times a week.

Lets have a laugh.

Paul at that age it was not enough
Some one we know seems intent on the self service section
If reincarnation of the mind is true, who knows, I could ask for no better start in life
Having an inquiring mind and a love of reading/learning has benefits
Making mistakes and living to know you did? priceless

Religions are many and varied, yet I have not seen this fact advanced as reason to think religion a useless description. Surely with religions and socialism the inference is to the respective theistic and Marxist wellsprings?

No, I think the reality is that there is great embarrassment at the failure of socialist experiments across the world for more than a century. I have seen French socialists become very annoyed when the subject of Venezuela gets mentioned. What I find astonishing is that the creed still has exponents at high levels of control. The UK faces another experiment in the near future. Will it be Nirvana at last? I think the outcome will be an easier call than a global warming disaster.

This thread never saw its author re-appear
My concern it was a sham, trying to muddy Labors waters, seems proved
We touch many themes some laughable some deeply interesting
Just watched a very old American movie
Gods Generals about their blood bath uncivil civil war
This very much ex Christian was struck by the love and faith those people had in God
Even welcoming death it seemed
This world may or may not need God
But it needs unity

Be practical, be realistic, and own up to when you were wrong. Then change what was wrong and don't keep trying it again, and again, and again, and.....

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=8583

One could argue that the LNP has effectively become socialist, of sorts, how?

Integrating large corporates with the state, and centralising policy making and communications, while hollowing out the voice and actions of genuine 'members'.

We observe how the top end of town is fawned upon and allowed commercial and/or financial advantages (not given to small business nor SMEs), policy making for same via the IPA, coopting Christianity, while branches of the LNP are more dictatorship of a shrinking proletariat (lack of genuine grass roots constituencies) with narrow/shallow communication, PR and agit prop dominated by NewsCorp and other commercial media (while intimidating the ABC and precluding need for censorship).

Australian Conservativism is being dragged down a rabbit hole like Trump's GOP, UK's Brexit and starker examples of Erdogan's and Orban's neo Bolshevism, masquerading as Conservativism, for the top people or corporates.

Andras Smith a breath of fresh air my regards
This year by its massive victory's the ALP will bring about reform
In the LNP
Conservatives have wrestled the party to the lost right of reality
Only here in OLO have they got the numbers

Foxy,

Your link to the ABC has a "reductio ad absurdum" streak to it.

The dictionary definition of socialism is:

"a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole."

Whereas conservatives prefer to reduce the influence of government to the minimum.

The questions that determine the degree of socialism in the government are:

1 Does Labor want to raise or lower taxes? (they are clear that they want to raise taxes.)
2 Does labor want to increase or decrease government spending/participation in the market. (clearly labor wants to spend more and be more involved in the market.)
3 Does labor want to sell off government means of production or increase it. (Labor wants to keep the power stations harbours etc and increase involvement)
4 Does labor want to increase the involvement of the unions in control or make the labor market more flexible. (clearly Labor is controlled by the unions and want to ban casual labor etc)

While labor is not Marxist (abc's definition of socialism) it is clearly socialist.

The pride of the Labor Party.

Typical Labor Premier wasting more than $380,000 dollars of taxpayers' money hunting for "likes" on his Facebook page and creating videos he starred in that were shared on his social media platforms

http://twitter.com/theheraldsun/status/1084775565356351490?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

On its foundation the Liberal party was indeed in part Socialist
Reading the words of Sir Robert Menzies, understanding the hold he had on voters is worth the effort
Time has made us forget our health, education, welfare, transport, even power supply was in fact much nearer to Socialism than it is now
America thought of us as Socialist
Now Poland, a country that helped bring about the end of Russian Communism, marches behind a NAZI Prime Minister chanting Poland must be white
America avoids understanding it is lead by the servant of Russia, Turkey, money influence, and we fear the left?

My area of contention about defining socialism is that it is claimed as the motivator for any sort of welfare. I think that welfare and kindness to others were part of humanity at its inception, certainly long before socialism was conceived.

Having conservative views, I have no ideology about how things should be done, but I do want to see things done efficiently so as to provide a prosperous economy that can provide people good lives. The wastage and mismanagement of socialist experiments has always resulted in economic and social decline. If socialism delivered I would be a big supporter of the concept.

A case in point. Automated factories are being built in the United States and providing jobs, yet in Australia Labor proposes a robot tax. Will evidence trump ideology? With Labor, ideology has always been a hurdle.

Belly, rather quiet on The pride of the Labor Party.

A shining example of waste of taxpayers money.

It can be hard to defend the indefensible at times.

PS taking a spell from you.
I have never mastered debating with children

Belly Quote "I have never mastered debating with children"

** More like children put you in your place too many times. **

" have never mastered debating with children""

I think master-debating with children is illegal.

Lucky you! so far self amusement is not
Again proving my point nasty is your default position

Hi Belly,

Did you catch the news? They have uncovered another Nazi sympathiser in the Canberra Liberals.

I am now living in the marginal LNP electorate of Bonner, a 3% swing would see it change hands. My Greens NSW membership comes due in March. With the Greens not that strong around here, I might return to the Labor fold and do my little bit to oust this LNP turkey from parliament. I'm a bit concerned that the Neo-Nazi party, and that far right extremist Qld Senator will get a few votes up here. They are everywhere!

Paul yes bloke, you asked am I still an activist?
Already well in to state campaign and we are a very real chance
No doubt the backlash from Turnbull will help in his home state
Will drag election posters on my trailer about 5.000 klm and hold around a hundred roadside/parks ext meetings/stop overs, at my cost
Then start all over again for the federal one, BUT not sure I will see another
Paul we drift apart in politics as you know but are at least traveling in the same direction
I predict loss of seats or mass swings against the likes of Abbott and other Conservatives
Greens will pickup votes over all but NSW looks grim,Palmer will prove SOME voters will buy anything but like one nation voters will be betrayed
Both by elected members joining other party,s and the truth, both are unfit to be in the house
2019, world wide, the beginning of the end for true Conservative right as voters reject lies and hate

Hi Belly,

Shonky Clive has been running prime time TV adds up here, they are rather weak crap, but will appeal to some, Big Clive does his own voice over, not good. He's also got a very large billboard posted at a major road junction not far from here. The blokes credibility is zero, how anyone could vote for him, I don't know. I recall a number of the forums 'Regular Suspects' were singing the praises of PUP at one time, after all the debacle they went awfully quite.

I wonder who's paying, it wont be Clive!

Paul1405 Quote "I wonder who's paying, it wont be Clive!"

Stupid statement award for Thursday.

1st you pose a question "I wonder who's paying"

** Thus stating you have NO idea who is paying, then you follow up with "it wont be Clive!" thereby contradicting your first statement. **

So now we know how much credence we can give to anything you say.

In future please activate brain before applying fingers to keyboard so as to try to regain some credibility.

Phil, you look for all the crap you can find from some Pommie tabloid with a reputation for producing rubbish . Yet when the story is shown to be baseless nonsense you refuse to admit it. As for your FOI, you would be looking for some dirt to support your already twisted opinions. If you got the rubbish you were after, what would you do with it?

Last time around Big Clive simply siphoned of investors money for his own political purposes, without their knowledge. The bloke would do it again, given the chance. Palmer and his political party is as phoney as a $3 bill. Are you a gung-ho supporter, have you invested?

Paul its time, our old mate PS has by his own words made ignoring him worthwhile
Clive NEVER FORGET, like Hanson
Saw his elected team leave, for other party,s
He will win votes, you can count five here
But nothing can stop the joy of election night

Paul1405 Try going to the right thread to dribble.

Belly The failed amateur who does not understand MC.