Sorry to bring you down to such a matter as this so close to Christmas.
So the US is withdrawing from Syria. The ISIS mob has been hammered
down but like Al Quider and the Taliban they will no doubt resurrect
when the pressure is relieved.
Like the Crusaders of old the west went into the Middle East because
Christians were being murdered and disspossed. True in modern times
there were very few Christians left anyway.

The real question now is there any point in going back to the Middle East
when they next get themselves into war amoungst themselves ?
I have now read about halfway into The History of Jihad from Muhammad
to ISIS and I can see that there is nothing we can do to help them
in any future convulsion of war and turmoil.

It is the nature of their religion that is the cause of all their
problems and it has been so for the last 1400 years. I had thought
this some time ago but I am now certain that we should pull up the
drawbridge and have as little as possible to do with the Middle
Eastern countries.
They have been in frequent warfare internally within the Middle East
and in particular with the Persians, now Iran as well as Egypt and
Nth Africa and other surrounding areas including Spain Austria and India.
There is the matter of Israel which needs to be considered, but aside
from some supplies they can generally look after themselves as they do
have nuclear weapons if push comes to shove.

Should the west now resolve to spend no more lives and wealth on a
hopeless group of people ?

Anyway Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year

Good move by Trump. The Middle East should be left to sort out its own problems. If the West had not stuck it's nose into the ME in the first place, we wouldn't be plagued by country-shopping Muslims and terrorism. Saudi Arabia is the big noise in the area; let them meddle if they wish to. Nothing to do with the West. Never was.

Dear Bazz,

The following link puts it much better than I ever
could:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-10-06/maccallum--leave-the-middle-east/6830102

Foxy's ABC quote said;
As long as our troops remain on what is seen as Islamic lands,

Well that is at the heart of their problem; it is not Muslim lands, it
was invaded and the Christians and Zoroastrians were murdered or forced
to become muslims.

That is the fundamental truth behind it all.
It was the reason the Crusades occurred, and it was some sort of
hangover from those times that brought western armies back to the
Middle East together with Ottoman colonisation of parts of Europe.

I think the west has done all it could and should and it is now time
to say to the Middle East Sink or Swim !

It is hard hearted but perhaps the west could offer the Christians
refugee status wherever they want to go.

"What is SEEN as Islamic land". As you say Bazz, it's not really. Old Mungo is probably one of the people who denies Jews a land of their own. The Left is always bleating about Jews 'having no right to their own land' despite the fact that they have been kicked out of, and abused in, other lands all over the world. The Left is too s--t frightened to say the same thing about Muslims though, who are also intent on turning all countries into Muslim countries, including the one Mungo McCallum uses and abuses for his petulant outbursts.

Bazz as is true about every thing views differ
Long before America got involved Great Briton left problems all over the middle east
As did other colonial country's
Trumps own advisers do not like his move
Kurds fought with great courage and commitment
The Turkish Dictator may use the opportunity do do great harm
Russia is the clear winner
Maybe Putin has some thing on Trump
No easy year ahead for America or Trump

Yes Belly, it is time for decisions.
Britain's interest in the area came about when they intervened to
assist the Ottoman Empire against the Russians.
With hindsight that was exactly the wrong move they should have
supported the Russians.
Then followed Russia's victory with dividing up the Ottoman Empire
into incompatible countries after the Wests' victories in 1918.

The Turks were the only ones who had any success in holding the area
together but not being Arabs the Ottoman Empire was a nervous grouping.

As far as the Kurds are concerned they are enemies of the Turks but
I think they will be sacrificed to the Turks unless Saudi Arabia steps
in to tell the Turks stay out.
It is a mess and they have never taken advantage of any external
intervention.

Not sure if pulling out of Syria is right or wrong but it would not matter if Trump saved a family from drowning, his haters would have a whinge.

Come on you lot, the Middle Easterners have been fighting for fighting's sake a thousand years before anyone knew there was a middle east.
They like blaming America yet the USA has only been on the scene for 400 years.

Runner, and those who dislike negative views about Trump
In the end what makes your opinion any better than mine? or others who share my view
What makes Trump special
What are the reasons so many, world wide fear him
Do you understand his staff are, and have for some time,been leaving
In the matter under discussion Trump has back flipped on his country,s long term policy
His advisers are against it
Syria this year, may well see Turkey use its war, to make war on Kurd,s, a people Turks have history with
Putin , now being purely a danger to world peace, is gaining power from Trumps move

There are more than thirty million Kurds, surely enough to form a state, either a single sovereign state, or a federation of autonomous regions of Syria, Iraq, Iran and Turkey ? [Yes, there's the problem - you noticed it ! ]

The Kurds have been doing most of the fighting against ISIS. So now the West abandons them, yet again ? The word of the Western powers, especially the US, means nothing now ? Trump's suspected business interests in Turkey and Russia take precedence over US principles ?

Joe

Do you understand his staff are, and have for some time,been leaving
Belly,
You'd more than likely find that those with some integrity & a sense of responsibility aren't leaving ?

Alrighty, my take:

I'm glad Trumps making plans to remove troops from Syria, and keeping his campaign promises.
With no congressional declaration of war or a UN mandate US and coalition troops should never have been there.
He is lying though; IS isn't defeated theres still about 30 thousand left.

As I said last week, I think Erdogan told Trump to remove US troops from Manbij or there would be dead US soldiers everywhere, and Trump decided he didn't want to face the prospect of dead serviceman.

Israel is displeased probably feels betrayed, (as are Trumps Neocon advisors) and I suspect the IDF attack on Damascus at Christmas was to try to illicit a response and create a reason for US forces to stay, although as for Netanyahu; there's nothing like a war to boost the polls and I've been half expecting them to invade Lebanon or uncork on Gaza again.

I'm sure Israel is frantically trying to get Trump to backtrack / leave forces in Syria.

The Iraqi's want US troops to leave as well.

Hey Belly,
"Do you understand his staff are, and have for some time,been leaving"
They're not his staff.
They're all holdovers from the Obama administration and many are compromised and loyal to Clinton and Obama, not Trump.
Trump learned the hard way that employees are't automatically loyal to the new boss.
- It doesn't work that way in Washington -

Hey Loudmouth,
"The Kurds have been doing most of the fighting against ISIS"
You mean fighting to steal oil and water infrastructure from Assad, that the rest of Syria relies upon economically?
Why do you think Syria had problems in 2011 in the first place?

Rand Paul summarises the issue:

"I’m going to start out with a grievance against the entire foreign policy establishment of Washington DC, who 2 years ago were swearing that Donald Trump was going to start multiple nuclear wars or something.

Now they are mad because he is STOPPING two wars. How about you just admit you hate the President, love war and have been wrong for the last 20 years on every part of foreign policy?

Consider that my Christmas present. You don’t have to get me anything else."

This cartoon summarises the dilemma suffered by Loudmouth and all the other TDS suffers... http://static.pjmedia.com/instapundit/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/warconundrum-534x800.jpg

When Trump lobbed a few missiles into Syria last year, LM and all the other Trump-haters were sure that he was about to start WW3. (they were also sure that the Chinese were moving 150K troops into Korea to oppose the US which was also wrong).
Now that he's doing what he always said he'd do and getting the US out of a war they don't need to be in, they've changed their collective minds. Oh dear!

AC in the end your view like mine may be wrong
But truth will confront us both next year
Trump will fall, he bluffed people like you
But truth is he is very very shallow and at best a con man
Look to his country, his supporters, who are critical of this move
Understand my view is shared by many
And enjoy life with your eyes closed to international events find it in you to read open honest press about the Kurd,s

Trump learned the hard way that employees are't automatically loyal to the new boss.
Armchair Critic,
Same here, no matter what Govt the public service is always Left.
That's why spending gets out of hand with a Labor Govt & perpetual criticism with Conservative Govt.

Individual,

Labor has to fix the cuts the Liberals make
to essential services - that's why they spend.
Get things into perspective old chap.
If it wasn't for Labor - you'd be in a very bad
way today. Be grateful! The Libs need to go -
they're past their use-by date. And the old
scare-tactics no longer work for most people
as the next election will show!

Just for the edification of those who are a few years behind the game and have failed to keep up with, let alone understand, the changes that Trump and his diplomacy has wrought in the M-E, this might give you a hint of how much you misunderstand and what's really going on in the world around you...

http://legalinsurrection.com/2018/12/saudi-arabia-and-uae-sending-troops-to-help-kurds-in-syria/

http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2018/12/21/checkmate-saudi-crown-prince-mbs-sends-replacement-troops-to-defend-kurds-in-syria/

This might also help understand why Turkey and the US 'Deep State' were so anxious to attack the Saudis over Kashoggi

So it continues , the put those with other views down virus
The my view is right, even if it is wrong type
Trump is nothing more than a big mouthed con man who lies
This new year begins his downfall
It will not be a leftist deep state that removes him his own actions, even crimes again his country will get the job done
IF we are content to read only what his supporting media puts out we will be caught wondering what went wrong very soon

Dear individual,

You wrote;

"You'd more than likely find that those with some integrity & a sense of responsibility aren't leaving ?"

Well then this should be easy for you, name one single member of his senior officials who has any sense of integrity.

Hey Belly,
"Trump will fall, he bluffed people like you
But truth is he is very very shallow and at best a con man"

Well it's been an adventure, and I am disappointed in Trump in many ways;
But I guess I still support his 'running the show' over the other alternatives
- I still for the most part got what I wanted in Trump -

I wanted someone non PC to put the progressive left back in their box.
Their lunacy was getting completely out of hand, like a retard festival.
And I wanted someone who supported nationalism to provide pushback against globalism.
Because that lunacy is getting out of hand as well.
Also my red line was also Syria, because I'm sick of US wars and neocon foreign policy.
- And Trump to his credit hasn't crossed that red line yet, and I hope he doesn't.

Trumps done better by this measure than any other candidate would've.
You never get what you want anyway and for one to actually do what they say;
- Well that can't be a bad thing -

I know Trump isn't perfect; when I find dirt on him I do share it.

"Look to his country, his supporters, who are critical of this move"

Well, there are a lot of pro-Israel supporters amongst conservatives, and I guess they're the ones which will get the most air-time, but plenty of Trump supporters don't want more wars and that's why they voted for him.

Hey Foxy
"Labor has to fix the cuts the Liberals make
to essential services - that's why they spend."

Its like some insidious never-ending-story blame game that only benefits globalism and it makes me sick.

Like we can't do better than a system where one group of morons runs the show one way for a while;
Then we pass the baton so that a completely different group of morons takes their turn running the show their way for a while...

And that's the best we can do?
Are you having a joke?

Why cant we just take every bloody issue look at all the pro's and con's of the issues like adults instead of trained monkeys and work out the best path or plan for every issue?

It's almost like these useless incompetent politicians have more to gain in constant disagreement and stalemate within the existing left / right paradigm than they do in actually figuring out policies of real benefit.

And don't forget there are those who want to keep it that way and destroy the nation from the inside out like a Cloward and Piven type ideology.

http://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/hardleft-faction-forms-inside-greens-aiming-to-end-capitalism-20161222-gtghf9.html

And it's not working for ANYONE except those who benefit from globalism.
No-one gets what they want, not the left and not the right.

Armchair Critic one of us will be wrong in the end,it remains my view Trump is very wrong
America has a mad electoral system, and bad politicians on both sides
But they have had great ones, from both sides
Obama hamstrung by not controlling both houses was the last true great one

name one single member of his senior officials who has any sense of integrity.
Steele Redux,
You're definitely not one who can boast having that sense. When the likes of you are incessantly white-anting anyone who actually wants to do something for their country the eventually they give up. Hangers-on can severely test any good characters' patience.
Hangers-on are the Left Govt's backbone.

I don't think Russia will tolerate Isis attacking Assuad.
So they can leave the worry of policing the area to Russia.

Also, there are some big players involved there, like Shiite Iran,
who is allied with Russia in keeping the Sunni Arabs out of Syria.

There are enough policing forces, America doesn't have to be there.

Members of SAA are moving into YPG territory east of Manbij.

Syrian Army ‘raises flag' in Manbij following plea by civilians to secure city
http://youtu.be/aaqx03DDDkg

The above title is unconfirmed however, I only have SAA troops in Al Arimah about 25ks east of Manbij.
http://syria.liveuamap.com/

Looks like the Kurds are giving back control of the territory they hold west of the Euphrates to Assad.

CHEFUL the Kurds may be the biggest victims of Trumps move
Indy an answer for the question would have been nice
Not a generalized statement that in the end says nothing
In the world out side this forum very real concerns are held about Trump
Too his problems are mounting

The sudden feigned concern for the Kurds is both self-serving and factually wrong.

Self-serving...its being used by those who oppose absolutely everything and anything that Trump does to give themselves some (weak) justification for wanting something they'd usually oppose. That is, people who would normally whine about US militarism need some excuse to justify their demands for more militarism.

Factually wrong....there's zero evidence that the Kurds have been abandoned. Already other 'coalition' troops are moving into the region to help the Kurds. Additionally it is reported that Trump demanded and Erdogan conceded that Turkey wouldn't move across the Euphrates against the Syrian Kurds. Also Trump has made it clear that the US is perfectly able to rapidly redeploy to assist the Kurds if required.

Those saying the US needs to stay while-ever the Kurds are threatened are really saying the US should stay forever. Dills.

As to Mattis's resignation, we should note that this is not unusual nor a sign of problems in the administration. Obama had 4 Secretaries of Defense in 8 years and most of them served less time than Mattis. But who needs facts when indulging their Trump Derangement Syndrome.

mhaze your view is out there, lets face it it is not the one most hold
History tells a far different story about Turkey and the Kurds
Too your view on Trump is different than increasing world wide opinions
Is it in your view ok to make public statements putting down Bill Shorten
As your answer is sure to be yes why is it not the same when talking about Trump

mhaze as I have said this will be Trumps last year in office here is why
Those who have left or been removed are a long list
Including his long term lawyer
He is unable to pass things even while his side controls both houses
They do that until Wednesday American time
Very real concerns about him will roll out near weekly after that
He is a shallow man and this year the world will see more of the bad side of him

"mhaze your view is out there, lets face it it is not the one most hold"

Belly,

I'm aware that its terribly terribly important to you that you are on the side of the majority or what you think is the majority. I put that down to your subconscious understanding that you opinion is not really based on fact and you therefore draw comfort that others agree with your unresearched understanding.

Quite how you've come to the conclusion as to what is " increasing world wide opinions" is left unsaid and that's probably for the best given your other attempts to justify your screwy notions.

That said, I don't particularly care what " increasing world wide opinions" is. I'm merely interested in the facts and the conclusions I draw from those facts based on my knowledge of history and human nature. " [I]ncreasing world wide opinions" was certain about khashoggi, but new data shows that he was not at all what " increasing world wide opinion" thought he was. Those who were sucked in by the original khashoggi outrage are now shown to be mere useful idiots doing the work of the Qatari and Turkish governments.

I assume that you think you know what " increasing world wide opinion" is because you don't read views that might challenge your prejudices. So showing you alternate views is utterly futile. Still, you should read something like this ( http://www.jns.org/opinion/who-are-the-real-isolationists-in-america/) to get an inkling of how much you misunderstand.

As to this being Trump's last year, I'll remind you of that this time next year.

"[I]ncreasing world wide opinions" was certain about khashoggi, but new data shows that he was not at all what 'increasing world wide opinion' thought he was."

Khashoggi wasn't really a journalist.
He was involved in helping facilitate every war in the M/E (including Bin Laden), look who his father was.
I think there was some kind of battle between Mossad and CIA for influence over Saudi Arabia / MBS.
Israel and Saudi Arabia are best buddies now (just quietly);
- Wouldn't want the Muslims to figure that one out -
That's why Saudi Arabia will send troops to Manbij;
Because Israel doesn't want Assad to regain lost territory.

Gentlemen we are after all talking about the leader of the free world
Or are we
Can any country trust him, his country, news about Turkish military moving towards the boarder are a concern
Following the majority? well yes sure guilty as charged, it is called democracy
Would we be better letting minority rule
This year Donald Trump falls,for years after America must try to repair the damage
Trump, forgive me for my frankness, may from the start have been more interested in his wealth than his country's welfare
Sit back, watch, remember as the roof caves in, you blindly ignored the real Donald Trump

Belly,
You're grossly unfair in placing Trump into the same category as Whitlam & Rudd.

https://www.smh.com.au/world/north-america/under-pressure-trump-more-vulnerable-than-ever-20181227-p50oge.html
Well still not got the olo way of links help?
But in the very different things we each read opinions are very different, think this deserves a read

Belly,

1. Take the 's' out of 'https://' like so...

http://www.smh.com.au/world/north-america/under-pressure-trump-more-vulnerable-than-ever-20181227-p50oge.html

2. Don't link to an article by Anne Summers. Its like linking to an article by Louis Farrakhan when discussing the merits of Islam.

3. "Following the majority? well yes sure guilty as charged, it is called democracy". Well blindly acceding to the 'majority' view its not democracy, its closer to fascism. And as I noted earlier you don't know what the majority says - you just hope that your in it.

Thanks mhaze very much
Indy while some doubt exists I think you can do better than that
The address if not my link is able to be seen
Try reading what others/the real world thinks
Some are holding their breath waiting to give me a serve if Trump does not fall
12 months is a long time, and even in his own party fears about him are held
It truth this once strong punter thinks it is odds on he just can not keep ducking and dodging
Constant lies are noticeable even by his supporters

Good point about the meaning of democracy, Mhaze.

But I'm puzzled about your writing-off of the Kurds. If they formed a single state, it would have a population of around 35 million, larger than Syria's or Iraq's would be. So they're not just some piss-ant group of hicks. Of course, Turkey will get stuck into them, with Trump's implicit blessing. Assad is already attacking Kurdish positions, but at least he can claim that it's all part of Syria which he is currently head of. What will be Turkey's excuse for being in Syria, attacking Kurds ?

Let's remember that Kurds are not Arabs; they're not Turks; they're not Iranians [Persians]. They're Kurds, related to other small groups in that region from the Mediterranean across to the Caucasus and the Zagros mountains, and well down into Iraq. They've been there for more than ten thousand years, and their ancestors may have been the original 'first farmers' (so most Europeans would be descended from their ancestors too) . As far as I can tell, they haven't ever aggressed against anybody else - well, maybe, because Salah-ud-Dinn (Saladin) was a Kurd, from Tikrit in central Iraq. But at the time, back in the twelfth century, he was an 'honorary' Arab.

We'll see, Mhaze, about Turkish aggression. They may need a pretext, such as the infiltration of arms by the 'pro-communist KPP/YPG' (you know, the mob that's done so much of the fighting against ISIS) into peaceful south-east Turkey, but a few timely bombing atrocities could provide one too. What the hell, one genocide a century ago could be used as the template for another in 2019.

Cheers,

Joe

I think Trump pulling out of Syria is a huge mistake, ISIS, the Turks and Russians are winding up to have a crack at the Kurds as soon as they lose their protection.

Belly and other Trump critics, your problem is you look at the problem and see how it is now without realizing the problem was around long before Trump.

Blinded by the actions that are needed now because previous gutless presidents kicked the can down the road without doing anything, North Korea, illegal immigration, you name the rest.

He is kicking the can with the increase in debt but maybe he will do something I believe he has meetings with the Federal Reserve boss (private bank).

Modified version other one was like a kids game and did not express the gravity of the inherited situations.

Belly and other Trump critics, your problem is you look at the problem and see how it is now without realizing the problem was around long before Trump.

Blinded by the actions that are needed now because previous gutless presidents passing the bomb onto the next president without doing anything, North Korea, illegal immigration, you name the rest.

He is kicking the can with the increase in debt but maybe he will do something I believe he has meetings with the Federal Reserve boss (private bank).

One thing does seem his problem when the Republicans had the majority in Congress why did they not pass the funding for the wall.

Maybe it is strategic to try to force your opposition the Democrats to pass the funding bill.

Philip Trump Thrives on having an opponent, he and his followers will blame Democrats but this time it will not work
He should have passed his money bill ,if his side agree with him
No one ever can know why each of us think as we do
And the mind reading effort about my reasons is, well quite silly
Considered thought, public opinion, closely monitoring international press build my view

History has provided us with irrefutable evidence over millennia that nothing will ever solve the problem that are the people of the middle east & their religions.
Not even natural Attrition or coming to their senses. The former has a long way to go despite being aided the mortality rate of perpetual conflicts & the latter appears to be far in the future in the realm of Utopia.

Belly Congratulations 70 words, 5 lines and you added absolutely nothing to the thread.

The Russians seem to have warned the Turks off from moving on the Kurds.
Kurdistan has never been recognised as a nation. They were invaded by
the Turks from Central Asia and now Turkey believes the Kurds do not belong.
Turkey's PM now wants to reestablish the Ottoman Empire with a new Caliphate.
However as the Turks are not Arabs they can only be grade 2 Muslims.
This was the practise in areas such as Hindi where the converts
were given a lower status as they were not people of the book such as
Christians or Jews.
I do not believe that Saudi Arabia will ever let a Turk be Caliph.
So if we can stir all that up it might distract them from Jihad in Europe.
Turkey is making intrusions into Greek airspace and repeating their
claims to the Adriatic Islands. This is an application of the Sharia
Law about reclaiming lands that you had previously captured as land
once it becomes Islamic held is always Islamic land.
That is the area that will need watching from now. Remember Greece
was once occupied by Turkey.

PS Remember the Russians fought a bloody war to recover Slav (Slave)
countries from the Ottoman Empire.
The Slav countries were a main source of slaves for Muslim Slave Traders
for over a thousand years. The Russians have long memories.

Bazz the history of this part of the world is full of war and colonialist mistakes
Had no country ever got involved from out side thing may still be the same
Is Trumps America withdrawing from its roll as world leader
The question must be asked
We watch and hope the Kurds do not suffer because of this move

We watch and hope the Kurds do not suffer because of this move
Belly,
So who in your opinion who should suffer then because in that region with those people & those religions there'll always be sufferers. It's just a matter of who.

So true Individual, and it has always been that which has called back
Europeans to sort out the troubles, and to protect the Christians from
being massacred.
Time to say enough is enough.
I doubt if the situation can improve until they give up the custom of cousin marriage.

Belly, the colonialists who first and foremost were the source of the problem
were the Turks when they drove the Greeks out of Anatolia and occupied
the area now known as Turkey. Not sure when that was.
It is the key to the problem so must look it up.

I am aware individual there are more Conservative here than true Liberals
Certainly more that true Labor supporters
Is my view of less value because of that
It remains my view both you and Bazz are more right than wrong in both last two posts
Wish we never got involved.
Simple truth, BUT the implications
Can you assure me Trump is not pushing for an isolationist America
What would be the implications of that
Can we solve the world trouble by handing them over to Russia?
Who will defend us against a rising China

Well Belly it is complicated but this is the basic timing of the Turks.
Later than I thought as this from Wikipedia.

The date of the initial expansion remains unknown. After many battles,
they established their own state and later created the Ottoman Empire.
The main migration occurred in medieval times, when they spread across
most of Asia and into Europe and the Middle East.[34]
They also participated in the Crusades.

So the Greeks appear to have been succeeded by the Turks.
So the major immigration was from the east not the west.

Bazz,

The 1920s. Until then, all those cities along the Aegean coast of what is now Turkey were Greek. For three thousand years.

So if they can do it to the Greeks, your new bestie can do it to the Kurds. The Kurds defeating ISIS ? Feh ! Bugger them ! An unimportant minority in a faraway land with which we have little association. Stuff them.

Joe

So we aren't able to blame western colonial divisions for unrest in the region? Pluck some Wikipedia quotes instead? Fine. Well let's look at some of the history of Yemen for instance;

"After the death of Ma'adikarib Ya'fur around 521 CE, a Himyarite Jewish warlord named Yousef Asar Yathar rose to power with the honorary title of Yathar (meaning, "to avenge"). Yemenite Christians, aided by Aksum and Byzantium, systematically persecuted Jews and burned down several synagogues across the land. Yousef avenged his people with great cruelty. He marched toward the port city of Mocha, killing 14,000 and capturing 11,000. Then he settled a camp in Bab-el-Mandeb to prevent aid flowing from Aksum. At the same time, Yousef sent an army under the command of another Jewish warlord, Sharahil Yaqbul, to Najran. Sharahil had reinforcements from the Bedouins of the Kindah and Madh'hij tribes, eventually wiping out the Christian community in Najran."
Wikipedia

So do we blame for the current Yemen crisis? The Jews or the Christians?

Get real fellas, blaming things like cousin marriages (which are perfectly legal in about half the US states by the way) is just making things up. Time to give it a rest.

Steele, I think the present Jemeni troubles can be laid at the feet of
Iran and Saudi Arabia. Not many would dispute that.

As far as cousin marriage is concerned a couple of thousand years of
that practise has damaged their genome with such intense inbreeding.
Ref NSW Health Dept & UK Midlands Heath Service House of Commons report.
30% genetic defects according to some reports is pretty severe.
Not as bad as Pakistan with a 70% cousin marriage rate.
It affects not only intelligence but also behaviour problems.
I do not think anyone can argue that Arabs do not have a behaviour problem.
Just show them a cartoon of Mohammad !

Loudmouth,

"But I'm puzzled about your writing-off of the Kurds."

I haven't written them off. You've decided that the US pull back will endanger the Kurds, based on, I have to say, very little evidence other than anti-Trump talking points.

I don't think the Kurds are in any more danger today than yesterday. I've already pointed out that the Saudis and UAE have moved troops into the region (which explains why Erdogan used the Kashoghi murder for political purposes). It's also been reported in Israel that Trump has warned Erdogan off moving against the Kurds. Also Iraqi elite troops (such as they are) are moving up to the boarder to keep an eye on Assad and ISIS.

Remember that there were only 2000 US personnel there which made them more of a trip-wire than a physical deterrent - although that was more than enough to give the Russians a bloody nose as required). The Kurds primarily rely on the US for supplies and armaments and there's no indication that will change.

Let me ask this: if the US must stay for the good of the Kurds, Yazidi, Syrian opposition etc, when could they ever leave. The Kurdsh problem won't be solved any time soon. The US would be there indefinitely. That's not Trump's plan. America First. The sons and daughters of the US homeland aren't going to be sacrificed any longer in failed foreign adventures.

I suspect most people's real problem is that its that warmonger Trump whose doing the peace-making and the answer to the question "When should they pull out" is 20 seconds after a Democrat gets the White House.

As to the question of who's to blame for the problems in the M-E, I blame the Sea Peoples. The Hittites,Assyrians Egyptians and Mycenaeans had things bumping along pretty nicely before the Sea People turned up. Likewise some of the blame can be slated to Alexander,son of Philip. Darius III had things totally under control before he decided to get involved.

Who will defend us against a rising China
Belly,
The USA & Russia will,
Economic geniuses & industrial greed mongers have handed all our commodity manufacturing & vital info over to outside countries, mainly China & now they're getting jittery.
Even our main communications outfit sees fit to have all our internet settings at the fingertips of Asian countries just because of greedy shareholders who are made up of many ordinary Australians who are more concerned about profit than the nation's economic well-being & security. Wage demands in non-revenue sectors are the nucleus for recession.
What on Earth do people expect a Govt to do with citizens like that ?

indy you need to look at Russia, it is far more likely to join China against us than any thing
Forget America
Currently they are isolationist
No country can trust them
It will take ten years post Trump to just get back to the place he took them from

Russia, it is far more likely to join China against us than any thing
Belly,
Something tells me Eagle & the bear will gang up on the dragon.

Russia and China are friendly to each other for one major reason America.

The more America pushes them the closer they are getting, if America stops pushing them they will go back to the way they were which is not friends they used to tolerate each other but did not trust each other.

China used to be very predictable prior to President Xi Jinping being elected, now not so easy.

America is not truly pushing them, in truth history may show the opposite
The thread asks a question
Part of the answer surely is another question was it Putins idea or Trumps

Belly "America is not truly pushing them, in truth history may show the opposite"

Contradictory statement, history shows in the past that was true BUT what do you classify naval and air-force assets sitting on there doorstep + the increased tariffs and the sanctions and the freezing of assets. If that is not pushing them what is in your opinion?

one word missing in this theory - "back".

The US is pushing against Russia and/or China.

Its pushing back against Russian and/or China.

The US no longer ignores or condones Russian/Chinese aggression. It counters it.

I remain convinced you two will be looking for a way out this year
Right now your idol Trump has never before been so exposed
Criminal acts his 15 lies a day trade wars a stock exchange as rubbery as it has been from the GFC
Even fellow true conservatives are concerned
EU looking at its own army American influence is in decline

"Right now your idol Trump has never before been so exposed"

Idol? I'm not into idolatry. He's always been exposed as the left/media/deep state try to overturn the election results.

"Criminal acts his 15 lies a day trade wars a stock exchange as rubbery as it has been from the GFC "

Claims of 15 lies a day. 15 examples of fake news a day. Winning trade wars.Stock exchange highest ever.

"Even fellow true conservatives are concerned"

Yes there are many people who feel they are no longer valid or needed in the new America. eg Bill Kristol.

"EU looking at its own army American influence is in decline"

So the EU is doing what Trump wanted them to do. Now that's influence.

mhaze from the deep south by any chance
Find Trumps Pinocchio page
Read his current poll numbers
Find out how many of his past and future people are under investigation or have been found guilty
read something other than Trump propaganda

"mhaze from the deep south by any chance"

I'm sure you think that witty or something. But you'd be wrong. Or half wrong. :)

"Read his current poll numbers"

Yep, they're pretty good. Must be disappointing and/or confusing for you.

"Find out how many of his past and future people are under investigation or have been found guilty"

Future people? You mean fetuses have been found guilty? If you mean, in your usual inept manner, how many people have been found guilty of collusion with Russia, the answer is none.

Having a discussion (for want of a more accurate word) with Belly is like trying to hold runny custard. He makes one moronic claim (US is losing influence because the EU is doing what the US wants!!) and when I point out that its a moronic claim, rather than trying to defend his original moronic claim, he just drops it as though it never existed and moves on to more moronic claims which will be equally jettisoned when challenged.

I think he just regurgitates whatever he's been told to believe and hasn't thought about enough to stand up to even the most basic scrutiny.

mhaze congratulations, you refusal to see the truth, to constantly use right wing rubbish as a prop
Puts you way out there in the fake news category
This is Trumps year of truth bringing him down

- Not Surprised -

Trump Agrees to Gradual Syria Withdrawal Over Four Months, NYT Reports

http://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/syria/trump-reportedly-agrees-to-gradual-syria-withdrawal-1.6802624

Trumps only friend in this new year is the democrats
As a field of would be challengers forms to run against him picking the wrong one, again, would be fatal
Opra Winfrey for griefs sake
Strange country

http://www.smh.com.au/world/middle-east/us-fudges-on-timeline-for-syria-withdrawal-as-fighting-continues-20190105-p50pr9.html
Maybe we are talking about some thing that will never happen
Trump has expressed all views on the issue yes no being the two most noticeable

OK let the thread die
But in reality it will be on our minds for all of this year
Advisers seem to have got Trump to reconsider
Another left his staff over night, an Admiral no less
Trump is an ever present danger to world peace
Jumping from yes no maybe his ego driven rants are surely telling the world he is not truly in control of his own head

Hey Belly,
The only Democrat worth voting for is Tulsi Gabbard.
I told you this months ago;
- And she announced her run for Presidency just a few days back.
http://www.9news.com.au/2019/01/12/12/53/tulsi-gabbard-to-run-for-us-president
I'd almost be happy to see her win; if only just to see it rubbed in HRC and Pocahontas' face.
She won't get the nomination though, unless she can be compromised.
- Unlike other Democrats she has ethics and some credibility -

"Advisers seem to have got Trump to reconsider"
I'm not surprised, I told you over 2 weeks ago:

QUOTE>>I'm sure Israel is frantically trying to get Trump to backtrack / leave forces in Syria.<<

Some are saying there's a soft coup underway against Trump, that he's now President in title only and his staff are holding back information or openly ignoring or defying orders.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-01-08/soft-coup-against-donald-trump-underway-major-turkish-daily

I haven't read this article but I think the accusation is probably somewhat credible.

"Trump is an ever present danger to world peace"
No, he's not all that bad; a hero compared to what you lefties are promoting.
- They're the real danger to world peace. -
I posted this link elsewhere Belly but I'm going to add it again just for you;
You should watch it and find out why.

The Terrible Truth About "Ireland 2040"
http://youtu.be/Qkl1xGTt9Sw

AC My deepest regards
Every word reminded me your thoughts are very different than mine
And thankfully the majority of people
IF I am wrong Hanson will win 20 lower house seats, test me, test reality