Do they exist? please forgive but this old man when a 15 year old, with his age up to 18 thought he was one.
Dad[ALP TO THE BONE] would have killed me, I however did not live at home and he never found out.
A union, well and truly in dads words a red rag one, indoctrinated me.
Please forgive my youthful stupidity.
A good man , Tom Uren was both a minister in the Whitlam Labor government,and a communist.
He suffered greatly as a POW of the Japanese.
1956, 11 years old, I should have paid more attention as Hungery, then Checks, suffered, by the time solidarity a union, won in Poland, to me at least it was clear communism is no friend of workers.
So why am I charged with being a communist?
How has progressive and even Liberal become swear words? can it be the center is the new left?.
Let us talk about the left and what it is

There's nothing left of communists except in Chinese jails. Belly you won't be forgiven until you go down on bended knees and apologise to your Queen.

The nearest thing that we have to Communists today are the Greens, and they are inept and more keen on talk than action.

But they need to be watched in case they ever get a leader with vision and brains.

Communists are still around - see http://www.cpa.org.au
But I think the younger generations abhor the the tribalism of supporting dictators because they're communist or anticommunist.

>Let us talk about the left and what it is
The left is a political philosophy based on social justice (aka a fair go for all).
Unlike much of the right, which regards government as an obstacle to prosperity, the left recognises the government can increase prosperity by removing the economic obstacles that hold people back. Generally the left would like there to be more wealth redistribution than there currently is.

The left tend to be more socially libertarian than the right, though that's not a defining feature.

"How do you tell a communist? Someone who has read Marx and Lenin. How do you tell a non-communist? Someone who has understood Marx and Lenin". ( Ronald Reagan)

In starting this thread I truly want to see others opinions.
My thoughts is Russia these days has more links to the Mafia than communism.
China more capitalist than communist, both however want world power.
North Korea is a nation of slaves ruled by a dictator willing to [well as the three are] murder its own and any other people it wants to.
So let this left of center progressive Liberal [remember our meaning of that word lead to Sir Robert Menzies forming our party with that name] wants to know if any one dislikes communism, slavery for the masses, more than me.
So is the American center the new left?
Am I center of my party as we move toward the center, a lefty?

//How do you tell a communist? Someone who has read Marx and Lenin.//

In the meantime, those who of us have lived more or less happily in a capitalist system their whole lives, never read any of the Communist philosophers, but know from the empirical data that it simply doesn't work... still regularly get labelled as Communists by certain people on this forum. I find it quite bizarre, and can only wonder what actual Communists would make of it all.

Toni,

Real old Commos would be spilling their beer laughin'.

Dear Belly,

According to an article in Quora -

"In 2014 ABC News ran a story with the headline -
"Railing against a left that no longer exists."
They advocated that hardline leftist voices have
lost their expression in Australia's mainstream
politics leaving conservative keyboard warriors
effectively shouting at clouds."

According to the article that basically sums up
the Australian situation.

The major two parties just don't seem to have hard left
advocates left. They suggest that our biggest concern
should be hard-right radicals that have been causing
trouble.

I've got a joke for you:

An Englishman, a Frenchman, and a Russian are standing and
staring at a portrait of Adam and Eve.

"Look at the calm, the reserve," says the Englishman. "Surely
they must be British?"

"Nonsense," replies the Frenchman. "They are so good-looking.
Surely they must be French?"

The Russian finally speaks. "They have no clothes, no shelter,
only an apple to eat, and are being told this is Paradise,
They are Russian."

Tony and Foxy agree, but big statement willing to provide evidence for it, the very right uses the term left without knowing what the left is.
Cuba, may still be communist, but for sure and certain it too is a country of semi slaves
We of the center or if you must, left of center are in the minds of some, the new left.
A reaction to extremism will push the right back towards the center in time.
And a future review of our times may well question the shallowness of charges any center party is in fact a left one

A poster highlighted we have a communist party of Australia, yes we do, it runs in elections, and gets some part of one percent of the vote.
They do not have enough members to mount an assault on a field of Tulips
This morning, story SMH tells of pipe bombs, sent to Obama Clinton, and other * left wing targets*
Are the American Democrats, not the Social Democrats, different party, the new left?
How did this come about if it is true
How right has the right become.

Marx's writings were the result of seeing the exploitation of workers during the British Industrial revolution and Communist revolutions are the result of oppression by the privileged and wealthy upper class. Those days and social divisions seem to be returning, although the masses are disorganised and distracted by modern gadgets.

There's a phenomenon called The Overton Window where "normal" public discourse was fairly centred but it has been dragged so far to the Right that what used to be middle ground and genuine conservatism is now regarded as "Left" and radical. Even the term "Socialism" has been redefined and distorted to be interchangeable with Communism.

There was a time where the Extreme Right could be identified but has now infiltrated and been absorbed into the new Mainstream and the public has become desensitised to notions that were once considered radical.

Hitler's volkswagen and autobahn were socialist for the herrenvolk. Putin's imperial Orthodox church and favoured boyars are Tsarist nationalist. The Chinese life-president is imperial. As we are right-handed then lefties are out.

Liked that Foxy,it is my opinion the left if it exists has been taken over by the very right.
Weird, well not way back in 1936 goebbels used those films of rats crawling over one another with a voice over calling them Jews
See the left is now a weapon the right uses to bring about fear of butterflies.
Along with lies constructed and used too as a weapon to produce blind hate and fear.
Long ago yes the two class system used workers like animals, just maybe the communists and true left had to exist then, but not now surely?
Capitalism with all its faults drives us, no other system can.
Inventing a left maybe to stop us fearing what the true right is doing

Belly,
>Capitalism with all its faults drives us, no other system can.

If the faults of capitalism were fixed, then wouldn't it still drive us whether or not the resultant system was still classified as capitalism?

Delusional!

And Foxy, you are still quoting the ABC as if anything coming out of it is not Green, Left, Communist.

Hasbeen,

I'm actually quoting from an independent website -
that referenced a documentary shown on the ABC
which was well researched.

The ABC is our national broadcaster - and is made
up of people who possess both a variety of political opinions.
I'm sure that as in all viewpoints and outlooks in
our society not all of them have the same traits of
conformity, that you suggest. Your concept therefore is
far too vague and sweeping in its scope. And your post -
is irrational and illogical.

Hasbeen my thanks your words not mine, highlight on little evidence and zero truth some miss use the terms communist and left
Yes capitalism has its faults, more so as countries like America put PTY LTD behind their names
That remains why I am left of center, just
Why do the center and left of it, wanting a fairer world, have to prove we are not communists?
Why can the very right not stop false flag comments if the product they sell is so good

The left gains it's vote by creating victim groups. Or mobs.

Reminds me of something I read recently, that said,
I believed in the mob, until they came for me.

If you want a prime example of the communist utopian rhetoric, look no further than
the hippie baby boomer generation.
Think of the old hippie song of a "big melting pot". "Big enough to take the world and all its got"

Sound like no borders and a globalist world to you.its the old communist doctrine being pedalled with different sounding words.
It's the same old utopian idea of equal outcome. You can have equal opportunity, but there can be no equal outcome. Big groups of people will succeed and big groups of people will be mediocre, fail or be downright thugs or criminals.
This is where the hippie utopian fantasy gets it wrong. You can give people equal opportunity but you will never get equality of outcome.
And the revolutionaries become murdering regimes much worse than the capitalists every time they have gained power. Not that the Capitalists are saints.

More people died last century under communist regimes than ever died under Hitler.
But the danger of the left is hard to pick because it is done espousing noble humanitarian virtues.
The left has encouraged the rise of these white hate mobs like Antifa, and Black Lives Matter,. The left gains votes by telling them,they are oppressed and the Labor party is the humanitarian party that is on their side and will save them.

The Truth is these so called victims are going to the best universities in the world and have equal opportunity if they step up and take personal responsibility for making something of their lives, but it's all too difficult to do the hard yards so they prefer to sit around blaming the western world for their failure.

As I said at the top. You may agree with the mob until they come for you, if the violent street marches tip over into revolution. If you are white you'll be first to die.

Before deciding if the communist left exists perhaps you should define what you mean by 'communist'. Is it Marxism or Leninism or Maoism? Was Castro communist? Pol Pot? Hitler once said words to the effect that Nazism was what communism would be if it was also nationalist. Was he a communist?

the problem is that 'communism' as well as 'socialism' get bandied around so much that they have a very imprecise meaning these days.

My rule of thumb definition is that communists look to control all aspects of the economy through a central power of like-minded revolutionaries. Communism is inevitably totalitarian and oppressive. Socialism seeks to guide all aspects of the economy through legislation and control of the major power structures. It could be democratic but rarely is. (eg Fascist Italy). Democratic socialism seeks to redistribute the benefits of the economy on some criteria is considers fair. It usually fails before it becomes undemocratic and almost always trashes the economy.

I think that many people who consider(ed) themselves communist don't necessarily agree with the oppressive tenets of true communism. For them its a Utopian dreamland that could never exist and where Ivan Denisovich doesn't exist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Day_in_the_Life_of_Ivan_Denisovich). It was once said of Lance Sharkey (head of the CPA when a young Belly was a member) that, had he gained power (at that was not entirely fanciful in 1949) he would have been signing death warrants with both hands. I'd doubt that our youthful Belly would have known or accepted that.

CHEFUL m haze it is not my task to tell you what communism is
My question, because in the end the thread is a question,is does the communist left exist.
I will claim if it exists, it is a very small powerless thing, unless it is in the hands of the right.
And too to underline it exists only in the tool shed of a right so very wrong truth is an obstacle to its reliance on phantoms it creates and uses to blind us all to its true intentions
Again this morning news tells of more pipe bombs, such is the America ruled by the right truth is victim
We are unable to be sure if the right sent them or the so called left
Hate and division in the once united states has seen trust on both sides, die,and phantom left that does not exist wrongly blamed

Issy, are you trying to be provocative or are you simply ignorant when you say //The nearest thing that we have to Communists today are the Greens//
Since you claimed founding membership of the fascists principled Shooters Party, now the Shooters, Hooters and Ice Cream Sellers Party, trying to lift their 0.1% support base, it is understandable anyone you see as left of centre would be seen as communists. Like John Hinckley Jr. who perceived Ronald Reagan as a communist, you probably perceive Corny Banana as the next Joe Stalin.

" it is not my task to tell you what communism is
My question, because in the end the thread is a question,is does the communist left exist."

I can't tell you if the "communist left exists" if I don't know what you mean by 'communist'. Tell me how you define 'communist' (eg when you were a member what did you think it was) and I'll tell you if that type of communist still exists today.

Under my definition of 'communist' they most definitely exist.

Not all Greens are communist and not all communists are Green, but most definitely some Greens are communist. And the Lord said, they shall be called Watermelons.

Anyone ever heard of Lee Rhiannon?

Environmentalists and totalitarian belief systems have a long history of mutual support and membership, back into the 19th century.

mhaze communism was born in very different times, workers and the poor had dreadful lives
Communism however was a dream, it promised one world, told us [it was a lie] all would be equal.
Upper class and middle class even became part of the dream that proved to be a nightmare.
We can talk all year about the promises and the failures.
We may even find common ground in claiming a better world would be an improvement
It will not be from long dead communism.
A form of modernised Socially aware Capitalism seems the best out come.
But like communism a new cure all is mounting a challenge to rule the world
It too claims it is the only answer it too is a trap, its name is extreme right wing dictatorship.
It invented the left we hear so much about, made words like progressive and Liberal swear words

"Communism however was a dream, "

That turned into a nightmare. Somewhere between 100 million and 200 million dead at the hands of communist 'visionaries' trying, or so they said, to create the dream.

Belly, if you don't know what a communist is, there's no way to know whether they exist today. Logic 101.

sorry mhaze but if I posted ten pages you would still not understand,
I could you know, talk of the differences in all its leaders and yes countries that once followed that path
What is it in YOU? why do you feel the need to needle and insult?
Are you suffering from feelings of inadequacy?
you seem to have some of the symptoms
IF this world is not a series of right wing Dictatorships in 50 years scholars may look at your posts, to try to understand why fears of a phantom, left that no longer exists,powered the very right, something that could never exist without foot soldiers like you
And the inventive skills of trolls working on new lies new fears meant for those with low IQs

Hi Belly,

Communism is too radical a concept to have it introduced in an orderly fashion in an already successful state. Countries like Tsarists Russia and post war China were already in a condition of extreme chaos with failed political systems well before radicals ceased power through violent overthrow. Massive loss of life from bloody conflict was inevitable, when power was taken by the extremists. The same can be said for Nazi Germany, Fascist Spain and Italy, and a host of other countries, some become nothing more than violent dictatorships. Saddam Hussein in Iraq for example, with no pretence of some wonderful political ideology being introduced, just death for those that were perceived as being enemies of the regime.

As far as I can tell, communism is essentially the fulfillment of aspirations of progressive left movements. A government that holds all the cards to ensure that everyone gets a fair and equal part of the resources. Sometimes holding one part of the population that was under greater hardship as a protected class of the population.

The problems with this is the failure rate, the corruption rate, and the expiration rate that the values that could be good (share our resources with the disadvantaged) are dropped in favor of those in power to hold the resources and kill the advancement of society, because of how hard it is to start a business, or make a change when someone else is in control to say you can or can't do this.

With this in mind. For those who are left leaning. Even center-left. My advise is this. Learn to show a kind of respect or even fear of how the world works. How it really works not just how you want it to work. Then the issues of corruption and all the evils that come with it (murder, greed, instability...) can be avoided because instead of trying to change the world to the set of ideals you hold, (and be surprised when it doesn't change for the better), instead of that you can try to be practical with the concerns of what might happen if and when a bad person takes the reigns.

...I would go farther too actually, and recommend to have the fear in God in place, but
I don't think many of you want to hear that or why holding on to His lessons and commands are worth while. So instead this will have to do. Try to be realistic and know the dangers that have historically been shown over and over again when trying to create a state enforced utopia.

Communism on its first appearance in far different times, may well have been needed.
It by its existence bought about a more sharing world.
Supported by some very rich people it got lost on the way.
For a time, in some parts of the world Socialism, said to be its biggest enemy, succeeded it has had some true filth use its name.
Right now, and for the past five decades, the right, even moderate right, have used fear of it as a weapon.
Then along came the very right, it needed a tool, something to hide the very real truth it too wanted to ride on the back of whole classes, it invented a left that never existed.
it convinced people that hate lies fear division was ok if it lead to? well we will not be told but whatever it is the end can never justifie how they get us there the new right is far bigger threat than any left ever was

Somhow I get the feeling that this thread is a simple attempt to stir up problems where there are no problems.

//As far as I can tell, communism is essentially the fulfillment of aspirations of progressive left movements.//

Well I regard myself as a lefty, and the movement I had this morning was, in its essential features, not dissimilar to Communism. Except it wasn't red, obviously. Or green, for that matter.

Sorry, NNS, the idea that anybody slightly left of centre is some secret sort of secret Communist is an absurd fantasy dreamt up by the likes of FOX news, which you seem to have accepted uncritically despite the vast numbers of lefties (just about every one I've ever met) that repudiate Communism.

You see, a lot of lefties are what you might call 'liberal lefties', or just 'liberals' in your country (that term is a bit confusing in Oz). Like non-left liberals, we're also generally in favour of thinkers like Mill and Jefferson - we hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. Well, not the bit about the Creator in my case. But I definitely agree with the rest of it.

I gravitate to the left because it seem to me they're more in tune with the idea that all men are created equal, more in favour of liberties beyond economic liberty (which is obviously important, but it's not the only important liberty) and a good deal more in favour of the pursuit of happiness.

You would think somebody from the country that was home to McCarthyism would be a little more aware of the dangers of levelling false accusations of Communism against people with naught to back them up but conjecture. Poor form.

Belly,

Do communists exist? Yes, no and maybe. Depending on how you define the term 'communist'. If you can't define it then the question can't be answered.

Toni,

"the movement I had this morning was, in its essential features, not dissimilar to Communism. Except it wasn't red".
But if there was any red in it then it would be problematic for the patient. Which is true also of nation states.

__________________________________________________________________

Communism was a disaster for humankind. That its main supporters throughout the 20th century where the so-called intellectual class is indicative how easily those who are credentialed but not educated can misled themselves and society. As Orwell said of communism “There are some ideas so absurd that only an intellectual could believe them.”.

Communism failed. It always fails (see Venezuela), it always will fail. But it will come back because people want to think it will work and many are adept at ignoring history.

individual you caught me! this thread is about me trying to stir up trouble.
Forgive me for not knowing what type of trouble I am making.
OH I am highlighting the communist left does not exist.
Apart from in the minds of the extreme right/lost
Warning even, if we let fear of that non-existent left blind us to the very real danger the extreme right is, we may well beg for a return to Democracy
Your short sharpe comment style was noted years ago, however some times I search for meaning in them.

I gave up on the notion of left and right some time ago, I simply blamed that useless concept on the French. I thought those that were labelled extreme left, communists, were too similar to the extreme right fascists ideology to be seen as different. I see too many similarities between the extremes to think of them as being diametrically opposed. Hitler and Stalin were much the same personalities, coming from the same mould.

What I do see is moderates, working within an existing well established political framework, like we have in Australia, and if there are any, but I see none of significance, extremists. All our elected politicians are moderates. Our political leadership argue about emphasis, and not about massive change to the existing social/political structure. Some are progressive, other are conservative, but there is little difference in outcomes regardless of whom is in government.

To Belly.

There is s left and there is a right. In politics anyways because we've made them. What I've said for the left isn't just for communism. Those who've sided with left leaning politics from favoritism towards a minority or a disadvantaged demographic. Or from economics, worker rights, minimum wages and such things. Even to the current age of restrictions on speach, even restrictions on critizing certian subjects at all, even if they follow the rules to not be rude.

All of these that make up what is regarded as the left all seem to share one thing in common. The push to enforce a state of ethics. Some are more worth while, while others are worth nothing. But they are all clumped together in a push to support all of them. At least that's what seems to be what draws people to those philosophies and politics. A drive to make the world a better place and too often an empty promise by politicians to lead us all into that better world.

And there's the rub. The promises are misleading and the causes too many. All too often a politician only needs to lead people to the next cause and never have to follow through to make it right on the last cause. "We stand for this," they say but they really don't.

So with a sincere heart, my opinion for left leaning politics is that if they have the fear of God in them, and a healthy respect for the things that work alright, as well as a cautious eye on the evils that are part of every society, and to a smaller degree a struggle in everyone.

If a left leaning person can do this, then they might be on the right track. If they can't then they'll be lead astray and demand dragging everyone with them.

....for the record I also have a different set of advise for what's been grouped as the right.

NNS I live in that left, like my party moved over the years from very left to about a center just left of middle
want social welfare, but want reform to isolate fraud
want health cover for all, do not want privatization, but want better management and control of the things we run
want accountability from business and politics, an ICAC that has the power, if needed, to even arrest the PM if he/she has committed a crime.
but the left owned and invented by the very right does not exist

All NNS favours is conservatism, no progress what so ever. Pick up on this god fearing crap, and be a good lad, be content with your lot, don't rock the boat with talk of a better life for the majority through social justice. Its as if life for the many should be set in concrete, all is to be as is, determined by the god fearing conservative ruling class. Do not be sinful and concern yourself with change, god will provide, in the next life of course, as the religious elite have been thundering from the pulpit for centuries s they work hand in glove with the powerful masters of society.

The most vocal with their state of ethics, are in fact the god fearing junkies, who see religion to be a useful tool of oppression. To demand social justice for workers, for women, for the poor, for the indigenous etc is seen as the work of the devil and should be resisted at all cost. Is that not what you are babbling on about NNS?

Belly.

The critisms the right gives of the left aren't unjustified. It's not an invention made by the right. Are they exaggerated? No more then the critisms the left has of the right. Keep an eye on the politics of dragging people through the mud because they fail the newest progressive standard. Watch also as politicians say they are for one thing but make little to no effort to support it out side of lip service photo oppurtunities. Watch as the everyday person gets burdened by higher taxes, business restrictions, and new burdens that keep getting piled on top. These aren't inventions of the right. They are unfortunately the things that squeeze a farmer, a store owner, and any service from construction to medicine.

Not at all what I'm saying Paul.

//Those who've sided with left leaning politics form favoritism towards a minority or a disadvantaged demographic.//

The most notably disadvantaged in society over the past two hundred years, the time of the industrial revolution, have been majorities, the poor, workers and women. The great struggle has been for the rights of these oppressed majorities.

The cynical view is that the progressive political leadership make empty promises, and fail to deliver. That cynicism is not warranted in our Western democracies, progressive change has been realised in many areas, and mostly for the good. The good life you enjoy today is the result of the struggle undertaken by progressives in the past, and social justice for the betterment of society is still being fought for today on many fronts.

NNS you seem to take a conservative stance, and malign social change, particularly as it relates to minorities such as gays, somehow seeing their rights as unwarranted and unnecessary.

Dear Paul,

The Communist Party was dissolved in 1991 and fragmented
into oblivion. Basically the extreme Left died out
decades ago. The hardline Leftist views have lost their
expression in Australia's mainstream politics. Today
there is little difference between the parties. Voters
are searching for alternatives - they want to have their
concerns listened to and realistic policies put in place.
They want a vision for the future - not just more spin and
slogans.

If the extreme left died out years ago the 'moderate' Antifa mob certainly have shown themselves to be tantrum throwing facist who use violence and shut down free speech. Hate to think how much worse these 'extinct' leftist were.

runner at least you keep your posts to an even standard
Was the pipe bomber a leftist communist?
How about the murderer in the Jewish place of worship.
Are the mass murdering Saudi Arabians leftist communists
Great to be able to throw the sand of a non-existent left in the public eyes, that way they can not see the real danger

Hi Foxy,

I have always been a believer in social justice, that's why I am a member of the Greens, the Greens are not perfect, but better than most. I'm not a great environmentalist, although I understand and respect the need to preserve the environment as being of particular importance in maintaining life on earth. Just as I understand the need for a strong and stable economy.

What I find particularly irksome is the way our political leadership continually refer to the economy, and "I'm a better economic manager than the other bloke". Its as if the only thing of importance is the state of money, and little else matters. In their speeches many politicians, particularly the conservative ones, will continually stress the point of the better economy they can deliver, rarely if ever mentioning a better society for all through social justice.

At one time I thought the Labor Party was the party of vision for the future, and I was happy to be a member, I joined in the Whitlam days, hated by the conservatives, loved by the radicals. Then along came Hawke and Keating with their macro economics and populists politics, and the vision went out the door, and so did I. To this day no politician from the Labor side, I expect nothing from the conservative side, has been able to reignite that vision for a better society through a real concern for people. You never know, someone may come along one day, but I can't see that person on the horizon yet.

Hi Paul,

I was never interested in politics prior to going
to the US - that's when things changed for me.
Living and working in the States had an enormous
impact - so much was happening there - and we got
to see politics in action.
Coming back to OZ - I began to pay closer attention
especially more to policies.

My family - always voted Liberal. They were the
Menzies generation - when "reds under the beds," was
a real scare - a especially for most people like my family
who had fled communism and whose relatives had been murdered
or died in concentration camps. That's why today I find it
weird to be called all sorts of names by some of the
posters on this forum who make false assumptions about someone
they aren't even remotely familiar with.

Anyway, today I tend to look at policies more than political
parties. And so far as you say - nothing much impresses me
either. But we'll have to wait and see. I'm still optimistic
that things will change - that somehow there is a leader
waiting in the wings who will surprise us all. We have elections
coming up in Victoria in November - and hopefully things
will not run along the same old, same old, lines of attack.
I think that most people are so sick and tired of those
outmoded tactics. I'm in a safe Liberal seat. It will be
interesting to see if there will be any ramifications here
to the dumping of our former PM.
Perhaps not.

Paul,

With you all the way on that, except the coloured bit!

The Australian Labor Party went wrong when it severed its working class roots and started pre=selecting candidates from those who couldn't make it in the Liberals

Paul, Foxy, both have commented in my view well on this subject and most.
The whole point of my view on this subject is the rights claims are just not true.
Paul knows I am not a fan of the greens
He should know I am not a hater either.they want a better world, social justice, heaps of shared wants there.
BUT they are not the extremist group, the right invents over and again.
People fall for the shock jock rants, the right of reality ranters.
Greens just introduced a statement they are to call in parliament for? a national ICAC Labor will support them, it will get up, at last.
Like the banks inquiry this PM voted against 26 times! you will forgive me for holding the view it is not the not existing communist left we should fear but a very real right of reality right

Dear Belly,

If we get more and more Independents into Parliament
perhaps they just may provide a balance - and force
Parliament to discuss real issues that matter to
the voters.

To Paul.

I'm not against several issues of the progressive left. But the way things are handeled in several left politics and philosophies leaves me with a growing distrust of the left. The cynicism has been earned. As for homosexuals and politics, I think there are many in the gay rights push that undermine the whole purpose of equal rights to instead being more privileged then the rest of society. There are a few other things too, some in their favor, others not so much. The wedding cake lawsuit wasn't in their favor. The issue that they don't get to choose to being homosexual, that makes me want to help them and have a concern for them.

In spite of any views for any of the disadvantaged demographics that the left try's to say it champions one of the issues that I don't agree with is how much division left leaning philosophies harness to try and win points on being the "good guys," while leaving things as is for the most part and focus on PC censorship (so they can retain the look like they are fighting for others while doing nothing at all).

Hope that clarifies done of it. If it doesn't so be it. Don't try to voice my stance if you don't know where it stands.

Foxy will try to keep my bias at the door for this off topic post.
BOTH SIDES must lift their game, however the next Bob Hawk John Howard Whitlam, Menzies will come.
Until then look at the independents in the house.
Senate is a shambles, some got in on 17 primary votes, many got in then deserted the party that put them there.
Lower house has I think 6 cross bencher,s.
UNLESS the vote is tied their vote never counts
More independents will only see more minority blackmail of who ever is elected.
What if a single vote, put an independent in, who traded with this government, most do, and even in a big swing it was returned?
Protest votes die, unless they second preference one of the big two.
Both sides need throwing out on their ear now and again
Both sides, one much more than the other right now, need to spend more time looking after us than in fighting each other

NNS, I believe you are an American, correct me if I am wrong. The big social justice issue there over the past 100 years has been the civil rights of African Americans. Something with hindsight can be identified not as a left versus right issue, but one clearly of wrong versus right. Some tried to distort the argument by falsely claiming it was an ideological struggle between the left and right, when it was not. Unfairly branding civil rights activists as communists etc. A common tactic of the conservatives and the extreme opposition opposed to a particular social justice issue is to stigmatise those in support as communists agitators using the issue to drive their own secondary agenda. There is hardly a social justice issue where some conservative will not resort to labelling it as left versus right, instead of accepting it as a purely social justice issue.

Dear Belly,

The Morrison Government has no articulated policy
agenda beyond a quick fix - such as the $4.6 billion
handout to the Catholic and Independent Schools and a
dollop of drought relief. Not only is there no grand
vision for the future of the nation, there isn't even
a legislative agenda. What do statements like - "I
believe in a fair go for those who have a go" mean
exactly? or "I'm on the side of the Australian people."
We hope so - as a PM he should be. And there's more.
However enough said. No wonder voters are beginning
to question things.

Foxy in truth bias or not this mornings polls cheer me no end.
See I fear ScoMo, as I did Turnbull.
This new right form of Conservatives is charging away from fairness, fair go mate died under its feet long ago.
My fear was baseless the rise in the polls died ,ScoMo, like Turnbull, will not be able to be the leader he could have been should have been.
The right, a right stacking branches and saying it is working for a base that does not exist,is pushing the party it runs over a cliff
The communist left does not exist but a far far bigger threat does, the very right is killing the horse it rode in to existence on the Liberal party.

Dear Belly,

As one commentator pointed out:

Morrison is the PM of Australia, the holder of
the highest elected office in the land and yet
he came to office with voters knowing almost nothing
about his political agenda. He hasn't faced a
general election as his party's leader. He hasn't been
Opposition Leader. He has not presented a policy platform
to voters, not explained in any detail whatsoever what a
Morrison Government will stand for. He can't even explain
why the Liberal Party got rid of Malcolm Turnbull.

It appears that the Morrison government is like a ship
of state adrift without a chart or a rudder.

We'll have to wait and see if things change in the next
couple of months. Maybe they will - if they listen to the
voters and if they stop their infighting and pull the
extremists into line.

Foxy ScoMo like Turnbull, has the rights hands around his throat.
He can never act as he wishes, the Duttons and Abbotts [both may not hold their seats] still run the party.
Hilarious to see the right again and again warning about a left that does not exist, while acting like the biggest danger to good government this country currently has

Thank you for the contributions if nothing else I got the chance to confront the paper Tiger the left, as it is thrown around by some.
Just maybe at some future date the question will be asked why we fought phantoms while the world, based on racism and truly held concerns about refugees and migration, blinded its self to the emergence of a very real very dangerous right.
Early leftists existed, they failed, but when in existence offered hope, or a wish at least, for a more caring world, let talk in another thread

I am vin mike, my passion is to design the cakes. So i opened a cake bakery in calgary. You can order the cake online from my website or can call me for home delivery. Celebrate family and friends anniversary with a sweet cake now!

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can't have your cake and eat it to! Goodbye vin mike!

VIN, if you need to force it down our throat it is not worth eating
We have run our race, the right will continue to use the left as a club, the left, well replaced now by a center not quite sure what it is.
Will continue to struggle over who rules while in truth big money runs us in directions we are not willing to explore or even try to stop

//So i opened a cake bakery in calgary. You can order the cake online from my website or can call me for home delivery.//

Won't it be stale by the time you've come all the way from Canada with it?

Pillock.