A Privatized prison, in NSW is calling for government to pay it compensation.
Seems it does not have enough prisoners.
Social media is full with complaints about Magistrates and judges grant bail, to serious offenders, often seeing them offend again.
Some walk free without any sentence or very short ones.
Should the courts deliver the community's expectations?
Who owns private prisons? why can they do it cheaper than government?
Do they do it cheaper? are shareholders ownership in them public knowledge?

There must be a law , if they breach contract the MPs will do time in the prison.

//Should the courts deliver the community's expectations?//

Yes they should. My expectation is that they will deliver sentences in accordance with the rule of law, not the baying of the mob. The latter seems but a short step away from vigilantism and lynching... in other words, anarchy.

//why can they do it cheaper than government?//

I'm pretty sure they can't. It seems to me that the cost of privatised prisons must equal the cost of incarcerating people plus the private companies profit margin; whereas the cost of public prisons is just the cost of incarcerating people.

Don't be silly Toni, I can only assume you are on a government payroll somewhere to even entertain such an idea.

For example when Telecom was privatised they reduced the workforce to less than half that that required to run a government business, while increasing the output of the workforce. Not only that, they reduced the cost to customers, while making good profits.

The management ability of bureaucrats is highlighted by Queensland rail. Years of total incompetence was required before any of the useless fools were forced to jump.

Is our Justice System Broken?
Yes ! And now it is being dismantled !

Justice system took a huge downturn when parents stopped disciplining their children. It turned many teachers into child carers and multiplied violence many times over in the community.

Dear Hasbeen,

You really need to stop with the daft old bugger routine.

As a privatised company Telstra repeatedly and consistently refused to start upgrading the network to fibre optics either FTTN or FTTP.

This forced us to stump up around $60 billion to drag this country into the 21st century.

Where once we were among the world leaders under the old Telecom, Australia instead got left with a substandard communications network under the privatised incarnation.

Remember were were once exporting our telecomunications technology to other countries. Now that is a shadow of its former levels.

And it wasn't the private sector that rationalised the Telcom work force. Mel Ward who was the last MD of Telecom took the workforce from 93,000 down to 69,000 during his tenure but strongly opposed the breakup of the organisation.

Now a fair proportion of the workforce is contracted out, the call centres in the Philippines are driving ordinary Australians nuts and the management keep doing dodge investment deals which keep losing 100s of millions of dollars.

http://www.afr.com/technology/telstra-takes-a-500-million-black-eye-on-silicon-valley-streaming-firm-ooyala-20180201-h0scvy

Meanwhile telecommunication services in the bush have suffered for years from the lack of service technicians because that is where the profits aint.

But your ideology doesn't give you any chance to acknowledge any of this. Private good, public bad and the greater good be damned.

Justice system took a huge downturn when parents stopped disciplining their children.
runner,
You've got that back to front. The Justice system prevented parents from disciplining their children & society has taken a massive & probably irreparable turn for the worst.

Well how many of us have cringed after a repeat offender is given bail?
And offends again while on bail.
how many have shown frustration at youth offenders being released on bonds multiple times?
Do we ever see matters of rape/sexual assault see the offenders go on to repeat the crime.
Privatized prisons?
Wanting compensation because they do not have enough prisoners, are we mad?
Why are some, seemingly rightfully, sent to prison for 40 years and others, same crime, 15 years with an even earlier release

Wanting compensation because they do not have enough prisoners, are we mad?
Belly,
Well, not we but the authorities definitely are.

Indy it is worse than that, please believe in some states in America charges have been made Judges get kick backs.
For? sending extra prisoners on minor charges to privately run prisons.
The old Grafton NSW prison, known for it tough reception of prisoners was shut.
Because? we did not have enough prisoners.
Now a privately owned one is being built there.
What next
A private police force

runner,

Right on the mark.

Dear Belly,

There is a system that is broken and it isn't so much the justice system but rather our capitalist system.

Capitalism is not a bad system when the checks and balances are in place to move its excesses.

The responsibility for imprisoning someone should rest solely with the government. A person's liberty is being taken away from them and the role of managing the incarceration should not be contracted out, especially to the lowest bidder.

Private prisons are an anathema and should be done away with.

I can tell of a state informing it workers about privatization.
After being picked, by workers, as one of six state worker representatives on the peak body of the then Roads And Traffic authority training began.
Both union and RTA dureing that RTA training it was said in an effort to increase the number of firms, big enough to both contract and do so in an open market.
Losses in costs, productivity, and quality would take place.
Think about that
Socialism for? private enterprise
After the first contracts came about, it was a shock to see, owners of those firms, had worked supervising those very tasks,,, for the RTA!
Time passed, I became one of the flood of voluntary? redundancy takers.
Then a union official, looking after along with many others, my ex workmates
From a storm in to a fire storm! those firms, overnight, went broke, owing massive sums to workers.
The protections of these days not then in place
wait there is more
The next day, under a different name, most of those privatized firms reopened.
we can run government enterprizes on budget, if we dump the air wasters we pick to run them,behind privatization some who have no right to are taking us for a ride

Dear Belly,

I'm not sure about our justice system being broken.
However, I often question the leniency of some of the
sentencing. But I don't know enough about the subject
to speak about it. However I don't believe in the
privatisation of our jails. No way. The privately
run detention centres that we read about are horrific.
And have bad reputations and little or no accountability
or transparency. So I can't even begin to imagine what
our privately run prisons would be like.

Foxy all views have value and I too am concerned about the very different sentences handed down.
Too bail, often in domestic violence cases and the offenders have even murdered the victim while on bail.
Those who hand down the law,some times in later life, face court them selves.
Serving police officers,in NSW at least, sometimes have criminal convictions but continue to serve.

Well we tried, a long list of complaints about justice short sentences no sentence, early release, bail given to dangerous people,the list could have been about three posts long see you in another thread

What sort of character are the hierarchy in the Judiciary ? I don't think they're in touch with those whose lives they're having so much impact on, be it negative or positive.

Is our Justice System Broken.
Bloody oath it is!
The reason it's broken is because the govt has been on a cost cutting mission for decades.
What confuses me is, whilst they have been selling off everything, by privatising it, thereby not having to spend billions on the services they sold off, why is it that we are still being ripped off with ever increasing costs, on EVERYTHING.
Not just the private services but govt ones as well.
Such as car registrations, fuel, and the list is endless.
I would have thought, once having sold these things off, we would at least see a normalizing of costs to the consumer, but no we are still being gouged more and more year by year.
So I want to know, where is all this money going, and believe me, it's a shipload of money, not small change by any means.
The justice system is broken when a moronic police commissioner comes on the TV and says stupid things like 'we are not here to educate the public, the public should know the law'.
I remember fuming at this prick.
If I had been there I'm sure I would have gone for his throat.
What an unthinking idiotic thing to say.
My response to that is; 'OK smartarse, your the top cop, let's see YOU recite EVERY stuffed up law in your job'.
This is the kind of idiocy we have to contend with.
We all know the idiot would barely be able to cough up even 20% of them.
As it takes at 50% for any pass rate in society, I would suggest that he is a failure.
Another broken part of the justice system, is; In the constitution, it was very clear that anyone charged with an offence, could only be 'judged' by a jury of twelve of his peers.
So then, the current system is illegal, if not for the fact it was conveniently changed by the 'system' without any consultation with the public.
Because it was in the constitution, the only way to 'legally' change it is by referendum.

ALTRAV has you ever asked why so many who plainly should be in prison are let walk free?
Or thought maybe a limited, because of costs of prison,is in place for how many can be sent to prison?
I have and something is very rotten

Belly, I've wondered that, and a great deal many more things.
Why do you think I get so animated and upset with commentors or people who think everything is rosey and 'she'll be right'.
If we would stop pandering to these 'fairies' and dreamers and bring back a few of the 'old' ideals, like compulsory National Service, be allowed to administer physical punishment to our children, allow teaching institutions to do the same if the students 'played up'.
These practices are deemed abhorrent to the weaker of our generation, so we have allowed ourselves to be brought down to their level, which is by it's very nature, 'un-disciplined'.
I would incarcerate anyone who caused another physical harm, reason dependent, of course.
I come from a generation where the youth addressed someone older by there surname, and not by their first name.
How can we expect the younger commentors to be mature and able to reason, when they were taught to 'say and do whatever they liked, because they were old enough to think for themselves and were answerable orbeholding to no-one but themselves'.
The one thing these idiots forgot was toteach them how to do all these things that they were now 'old enough' to do.
And so we have ended up with this failure of a society who's so far up itself, it hasn't seen reality in years, and at this rate is not likely to ever see it either.
Society is resorting to the days of old when even the Roman empire got so comfortable and cocky with it's ruling the known world, it let down it's guard and began seeking more pleasurable pursuits, with it's orgy's and 'good times', and what happened it finally collapsed into this seething mess called, Italy.
Belly, yes, 'something IS very rotten' here, and I believe, unless we sideline the do-gooders, or throw them in front of the baddies, so they feel the true state of our social system, and they come out of the experience with injury or death, will they begin to curb their ignorant and mis-guided beliefs and attitudes.

Take Melbourne ALTRAV, please take it, while a Sydney sider once, it is a more livable place than the harbor one.
Yes history if full of white gangs even bikers gangs, but right now, walking those streets, kids know! know! they can get a few let offs before being put away.
Why?
Why not use confinement to teach prisoners to read write live with other people.
How can a group overrule the Federal Minister when he says send some back to the country they came from?

Thanks for your comments ALTRAV.

We will talk again about this issue, it is a basic truth no matter what politicians say, most things are shared by both sides of politics.
Yes given our wants and wishes the middle and both side would get lougher terms in prison for most.
We, I truly think, would question how some got to become judges and magistrates, even demand some be removed.
How we could ever separate the good cop from the few ego driven rat bags is beyond me.
Why privatize? surely only failure to put key performance indicators and make them pass or out you go, is done to falsely prove it is cheaper to sell what we own?

looking at the corruption & incompetence in authority makes one shiver when thinking of how this would be when privatised.
I just hope our present politicians will work on developing some sense & prevent this privatisation.

The reason that prisons are privatized is that with many things, private enterprise can provide the same services for a significantly lower price.

SR,

The reason that the privatized Telstra declined to build Rudd's gold plated NBN is because it had sod all chance of any decent return on the expenditure which was borne out by the vast over expenditure by the incompetent Labor government.

two tins joined together with a long string was Turnbulls wish for the NBN
Under riding instructions from Murkey Murdock,[in defence of Fox] throwing mud at Labor ignores the truth.

Guys, the source and reason for ALL our problems are, POLITICIANS.
Which turn out to form Governments.
Do not believe what you hear and see.
These guys are ALL in it together.
Our individual party preferences aside, for a moment, and you will see that it is THEIR personal interests that are the priority to them.
They need to be kept in check or they will end up doing exactly what they want, at our expense.
Every time we see a change in PM's or govt, we are handing the keys to the 'piggy bank' over to another thief.
Nothing changes except the individuals or thieves.
The problem as I see it is obvious.
The PEOPLE.
Unlike me, people are lax and lazy about their financial well being, with such stupid comments and attitudes like, 'that's what we pay them for', and a myriad of other deflective comments.
All the while giving the govt free range over our money.
Let me be clear.
They do not seek to become a minister of the govt for a piddly four figure income.
No they are after the bigger prize.
The lucky few get a portfolio.
Now that's where the big bucks are.
We're talking potentially, millions.
Every time a major deal or project or purchase is made by the govt, I can assure you, BIG money is channeled into entities which are ultimately owned or controlled by them.
Any attempt to trace any such activity will result in nothing.
You don't think these guys are smarter than that.
Good ole' J B Peterson (can't remember the spelling) the former QLD Premier used a different scam to get his 'kick-backs'.
The ruse went like this;
The successful contractor would 'bad-mouth' good ole' JBP, who would then declare he was going to sue them for defamation, or slander or whatever.
Suddenly there was an out of court settlement.
The amount was never disclosed.
The media and I'm pretty sure even some of the public figured it out, but it was 'legal', so nothing could be done about it.
It's like hiding in plain sight.

Churchill, Ghandi, the first black leader of South Africa, great politicians, we have not seen the last of such men.
We the voters let standards slip by paying more attention to what we plan to do on the weekend than who we should be electing.
Shortens promise of something like an independent commision against corruption is a step towards better out comes

Belly, not you too?
There will be NO 'independent commission against corruption'!
Whatever will be promoted as such, will be 'smoke and mirrors'.
NEVER believe anything these liars say.
I even dismiss the things they DO.
Remember these mongrels are only there to 'feather their own nests'.
The banking Royal Commission is also a ruse.
When I hear that the fine is in the millions, compared to the BILLIONS they STEAL off us, it tells us that the govt is in it up to their necks.
I am not as stupid or gullible as most Aussies and given the opportunity I would savage the banks, for their obvious greed and averace conduct, as well as the obvious contempt towards the public in general.
If the govt was true and just, they would charge them along the lines of the tax office.
If we get caught out by the tax dept, we cop a fine, usually at least twice the amount we owe and then a percentage of the over-all amount.
So the total of the fines handed down to the banks, should be in the billions, and I don't mean one or two billion.
Anything less tells me that there is collusion and corruption between the govt and the banks.
So Belly, do not take anything at face value.
I would advise, when it involves the govt, believe NOTHING and question EVERYTHING!

ALTRAV well yes it has been bound and tied and dumped by the side of the road.
BY politicians ON BOTH SIDES, remember, its founder Nick Greiner was its first victim,wrongly as it turned out.
KNOW too a sitting Magistrate saw it bound tied and dumped again.
Because it caught her out lying and showed a long term relationship with at least one criminal.
BUT yes it is locked away from touching the very filth we want it to, we however must not throw the baby out with the bath water.
We *need* such a thing, we *must* demand and never stop demanding it be free to do its job.
IF we win Eddie Obeid will not be lonely, about ten new friends every year, from all sides of politics will join him

Aren't they all supposed to be servants to/for the public ? So, why do we the Public, constantly provide these integrity lacking mutts with tickets to that disgusting bandwagon ?
Let's push for referendums on halfing the quota of Academic bureaucrats & replace them with people from the private sector.
We need people with a grip on reality at the helm not these theorising idealists with an overdose of greed & self importance.

Indi, I'd really like to agree, but humans being humans............... Where is this place where we can choose honest and mature, yet humble people to do our bidding?
Heck we can't even hire people to do menial tasks without them, skimming, scamming or just plain stealing off us.
You see this is one of the main reasons I like the Monarchy.
They do not have a hidden agenda.
They are already wealthy, so we know they are not going to steal off us.
They were 'born' into the job.
They have been 'training' for the job all their lives.
They are 'the parliament'.
Electing people like commoners and academics or even business leaders, has proven to be a failure.
Everyone has a personal agenda.
Everyone is trying to benefit themselves financially, so giving them the keys to the safe, is NOT the answer.
Our Justice system IS broken, and has been so for most of Australia's life.
So unless or until Australians get off their collective arses and have a revolution or get more involved with what goes on in govt, our justice system is going to get even worse.

indy in America the job of handing down justice often is sold, and even more often the end result is criminals on both sides of the bench.
I refuse to believe only private enterprise can fix it.
Good laws enforced by good people are not imposible but like ALTRAV said we need to demand better

Altrav & Belly,
That's why we desperately need a National Service. Morrison's stance on young unemployed people to work on farms is a good start. No need to break up married couples when there are so many singles to get out & about.
This work for the Dole should be made a "Do your time for the Nation" or "Incentive" scheme. Many young people would find what they're looking for by being in such a scheme. It would cost way less than the present system & would reward the victims of our badly managed economy rather than persecute them as it does now.
For far too many years now Governments have destroyed what little incentive there was. It's now time for incentive.

individual you have pushed that national service wheelbarrow for a very long time.
As you know we once had it.
Tell me what benefits we lost in giving it up.
Let me remind you how the Vietnam war saw dead national service kids in a war the west never intended to win.
A nation that requires its long term unemployed to serve the community, yes for sure.
But if you think national service is a cure all in my view you need to prove it

Tell me what benefits we lost in giving it up.
Belly,
Surely, you're having me on ?

indy if we ever got together no doubt we would get along
But please do not tell me I am the only one to question your love of national service.
And mate do not throw words like your last few and me, like sand in my eyes to blind me to the truth, you have no answer to my question.
Justice if any exist, has little impact from national service.
Here I must resort to using dirty words *progressive* see nothing can convince me we must do things, in any area, just a we always have done them.
Rather than having a magistrate bend the law, giving bond after bond to some one who should be in prison
Why not have three community elected peoples it in judgment and hand it down?
Why not give the local people the right to remove them if they fail the community.
And as part of a reform process yes inflict some form of service to the community on offenders not the military however

you have no answer to my question.
Justice if any exist, has little impact from national service.
Belly,
I beg to differ. National Service has a proven track record of resulting in better, more responsible citizens.
Just look at how society has become intolerant, greedy & uncaring since teenagers became young adults without any discipline in their changing years into adulthood.
Getting rid of National Service got rid of discipline.

Belly, Indi has a point.
National service was not only about training people in case more soldiers were needed in times of conflict, but their primary objective was to introduce discipline at an appropriate stage in the making of a worthwhile human being and his contribution to society at large.
If you want confirmation of the need for discipline, just think of what these morons get up to in their 'gap year'.
The introduction of the 'gap' year, was a license to learn how to get into or cause trouble, from an early age.
Those with a mature approach to their future, found work and never looked back.
The rest just wasted time and life, and learned how to live 'on the dole'.
The problem with today's lot is they have grown up with a sense of entitlement, which is totally undeserving and unjustified.
In the govt's rush to win over people, and their votes, they have, over the years, given in to these petulant and childish people and their demands, and that's the main reason we find ourselves with laws and the execution of those laws, totally useless and unworkable.
I hear govt's spew out the stupid mantra of 'world's best practices'.
What a load of BS!
We barely come up to the world's 'worst' practices.
The first step to fixing our broken justice system, is ignore the soft cock, do-gooders, completely sideline and get rid of the 'greens', and then start removing some of the laws and rules which inhibit discipline and therefore, reason and common sense.
Another factor is get rid of the ministers who try to 'buy' votes by offering to pass laws that do nothing to enhance and benefit people's lives and living standards, without causing grief to the rest.

Gentlemen I beg to differ our last lot of national servicemen sent boys to war.
And sent us back broken men, even now some are still killing them selves and first hand understanding of that.
What you in the end claim national service does is no more than good parents should have done long before sending them to war

The Army teaches self sufficiency- to live out of your pack- it teaches team work and how to follow instructions. It teaches improvisation, resilience, but most of all discipline. It teaches leadership and how to manage an organization.

This is a good foundation for members of our society.

More needs to be done to funnel these productive people into productivity after the army in civilian life. The full life cycle of a citizen from cradle, to youth, to adult, to family, to old age- all of these five stages has a place in society and interact with each part to make society strong and self supporting. Leadership is about supporting this structure. I believe that there needs to be a balance between freedom and discipline- Aristotle had a different view of freedom/ liberty than John Stuart Mill. Freedom is a privilege that is earned. Those societies that are only for pleasure will die- maybe that's what the Socialists want- maybe that's what other groups want too.

Belly,
That is the unfortunate & unavoidable part of fighting for freedom. Career soldiers know & accept the risks because apart from preserving freedom there are many rewards once back in civil life.
Truck drivers, mine workers, Police in fact a whole host of workers in various industries take risks & pay the ultimate price. Thankfully, that is not the norm but a sad, random fact nevertheless for those who pulled the shorter straw.
Being drafted for active service is something non-career defence personell would understandably be deeply concerned about but what needs to be taken into account is that most wouldn't be too upset if someone else got selected & yet they can still take part in the spoil that is freedom.
The point of National Service is formost to instill a sense of belonging, responsibility & respect.
war service is last on the list. Were there more of these values the risk of war would also be very low.

CM, once again your words are uncontroversial, and cannot be challenged.
I am concerned by the mindset of the 'do-gooders', as it is a fact that their concept of being nice, respectful and offering 'soft' solutions are in fact a result of their own lack of courage in facing up to a situation which requires them to administer 'unpleasant truths'.
So because they feel more comfortable pushing a 'nice' mantra, rather than the uncomfortable and confronting, yet, appropriate one, they are giving the wrong message or advice.
An example of this is when that Maggot Lisa Wilkinson, uttered excrement on national TV, by making an announcement as a result of a girl being raped and killed, in a park, at night, that, instead of females taking more responsibility for their actions, like NOT walking through a park alone at night, her ignorant, arrogant response, (because according to her, ALL men are rapists) was that mothers should teach their boys to 'stop raping girls'.
Now whether she likes it or not, she said it, it's out there now, and she will forever be admonished and judged by that dangerous piece of advise, which I hope was received like a spoon of vinegar, and immediately rejected, along with her.
Wonder why females get attacked?
My point is that quite possibly, parents today are trying to be 'friends' with their children, and in doing so are not disciplining them for fear of alienating them.
This may also be the reason for another disgusting lack of discipline topic, the calling of their elders by their first name, even family members like Uncle's and Aunt's.
The do-gooders lack of courage to discipline their children is the direct cause of ALL our youth problems of today.
Those children who are clearly responsible worthwhile members of their elk, don't need to be brought back into line, but the rest certainly do.
One way is National service, and the suggestion of sending 'boys to war' is an over-reach.
If a male is so weak of character then he should not have been sent in the first place.

Thanks for your feedback Altrav. We need to break down the propaganda that has developed over the last 40 or so years. Much of it could probably be written on a A4 sheet- it represents the value socialists place on the cultures of thousands of years.

The failure of the justice system to deliver the community's expectations.
The failure of not my child parents to love the kids enough to show them discipline.
And the failure of politicians to even consider supplying better.
Are not good reasons to force national service on any one.
Army's exist for war/defense, not childminding/training

Army's exist for war/defense, not childminding/training
Belly,
Chld minding/training is for parents & teachers. Young adult training is for organisations of discipline for the common good.
We now have the proof that that not having a national service is merely playing into the hands of Centrelink & the unions.

indy not sure, honestly, what you are on about, it is all good however my friend because I understand you do not know either
Simplistic blame it on any thing is not constructive.
Are you aware if you intent linking the law with national service and unemployment you get very near communism?
Our system has no such links and in truth welfare is a different subject.
If you wish to verbally flog those unfortunates lets do it in a dedicated thread
Both sides of politics show no interest in national service in a time without war, rather than send our kids to die they should send old fellas like you and me first

Not sure why, had thought we lost the thread many posts ago, let it die .
But still unsure why I want to take on your hard headed views, ones you can never quite fill out, but you have me hooked
UNIONS
From the day of the tolpuddle martyrs, they ended up here as convicts you know.
Workers wanting a share of the wealth they created for others have been subject to not always true charges
IF we never had them we may still be serfs,working six days a week for little pay, hungry enough to send our kids in to the coal mines at age eight.
Care to disagree? yes unions use propaganda, including this country's biggest and most powerful union the LNP!
They are only one of tens of rich men's UNIONS from farmers fed to master builders they exist, just like trade unions, for the interests of their members

rather than send our kids to die they should send old fellas like you and me first
Belly,
I agree but I'm hopeless at video games.

Belly, you are too emotionally invested in certain topics, and because of this you are not thinking clearly.
You mention the unions are there to get more of the money from the company that the workers made wealthy through the work THEY did, therefore deserve a bigger income.
Some have said the company should even give them a share in the company.
Either case you are out of touch.
In either case, if you want more money either in shares or income, then here's a little tip as to what you must do before this is ever gonna happen, unless the boss decides otherwise.
Before you even think about the cretin thieving unions anywhere, you and your mates, put your houses on the line, mortgaged to the hilt.
Then spend every waking minute thinking and doing work related things.
Forget about a social life, your time, even on weekends will be focused on the business and trying to figure out ways of keeping it alive or making it make enough money to just keep up the maintenance and service of the equipment, let alone pay for the insurance, power, super, oh and let's not forget about the wages.
I'm pretty sure I've left out a lot of other things, but knowing you don't want to hear that I'm not wasting any more time on such a pointless, irrelevant bunch of thieves and con-men, as UNIONS!
So to summarise;
If you want more pay, start your own business, borrow the money, put everything you own and most of what you don't yet own, as security, then spend the rest of the time 24/7 constantly worrying about making enough money to make repayments, let alone pay the staff and service/repair gear so that you can keep doing exactly what your doing over and over, till one day you find you've been doing the right thing but everyone still said it wasn't enough, and you are forced to close the doors because the unions have squeezed and pushed you to the wall.

indy your posts consist of mind bubbles without substance or reason ok with that but please explain, put some meat on them.
ALTRAV in your opinion.
See it is not true just because you say so
This forum is not just about the opinions of one side.
IF you ever sat at the enterprise bargaining table, on either side, you would soon learn no one side can win.
In fact both sides would give ground, imported from Thatchers England EBA enterprise bargaining agreements work.
But no side is gifted, both give before taking.
My defense of unions above was only to remind, of what has been achieved and it is not calling for other than a fair go, a chance to bargain,not beg, for workers who in the end are just us

Belly,
without discipline we get what we have now. Useless hangers-on multiplying daily.
Uninons once did a great job but have now become saboteurs of economy & mentality.
people do something right & then proceed & even rush to over-step the mark.
Govt too rewards the conniving & persectes the genuine. There must be reward for good effort not for selfish effort.
Two years of national service is a small price to pay for a good & safe life in a good & safe society.

Belly, what you describe is not productive, because here in Australia we have a very aggressive and 'protection' minded out of control, union mentality.
The unions ARE responsible for our hardships.
There is absolutely no doubt of that.
In their 'race to the bottom', they have done nothing to help the worker because the cost of living to income ratio has gotten worse over the years.
What they have done is lined their own pockets, at the expense of Aussie workers and Australia as a country, by upping wages, our internal costs rose with it, and our exports dropped dramatically because the unions pushed the cost of labour so high, we have become un-competitive in world trading.
Belly it's remarkable how dumb most people are.
Did you or any of your mates stop and think, just for a moment, businesses need workers, so why would they not want to have a collaborative working environment?
I'll tell you why.
Because these scum-bag unions had to make it look like they were necessary, so they started using 'mafia' style tactics such as strikes and whatever else to get their way.
In doing so they were making themselves look good, that's all.
It's just like the banks.
They simply pass it on to the customer.
No different, the unions push up wages, the manufacturer adds it on the cost and passes it on, so that when that same worker with his pay increase goes to buy the same item next time, the price has gone up.
So we turn to exports.
No it's too expensive, so no exports.
Thanks for nothing.
Belly you can shove your EBA, your kind of mentality is pure evil and belongs with the thugs and criminals because the sh!t Australia is in right now is down to guys like you and your beloved unions.
Why you haven't figured this out for yourself and taken a big stick to your union reps is beyond me, but at least it gives all of us a window into you and your mindset so we can adjust our comments accordingly.

ALTRAV nothing including truth will divert you from your bias.
It however is baseless.
Right across this country small business men and women call on good unions to ward off the thugs and mugs, CFMEU to you,
Truly no boss could ever harm the union movement more, even as much, as those brainless left overs from the 1940,s
We are not all like that
the thread has become a flog workers/unions/Labor one, but I am comforted by the sure and certain understanding truth became a victim about 40 posts ago.

Belly said- "We are not all like that, the thread has become a flog workers/unions/Labor one"

The reason people are attacking the unions/ labor is because they've sold out to the communists- we are the canaries in the coal mine- hopefully the miners keep tabs.

CM sorry old mate my mistake, on first seeing you here I THOUGHT I saw a bright mind.
Got that wrong my fault, tell you this, my union fought communism here in the 40,s and 50,s
They do not exist now, not in numbers world wide to put on a decent bar b q.
Russia is in the hands of the mafia, China can not make up its mind if it wants world domination or a partnership with your man Trump
SURPRISE! it is my view this site was developed to see every view free to be covered, not just yours

Belly, you got one thing right, only one.
You 'thought you saw a bright mind', in reference to CM.
You got that right, and I agree.
Now on the other hand, YOU have got the rest all wrong.
Since I first noticed your comments, in fairness, I concurred occasionally.
If you want proof of my 'OPINION' on my claim, just look at the amount of negativity you have generated.
Your opinions are just that, and that's OK because this is, after all OLO.
But when I or someone else makes a 'COMMENT', the last thing I want to hear is someone saying, 'that's just your opinion'.
Well Belly, YOU have reached the end of MY rope and this is where you get off.
Your opinions greatly differ from many more people than the one or two who support you and your opinions.
If you can read, there is a mound of material out there which clearly conflicts with your OPINIONS!
Here is a 'statement'.
Are you ready?
The unions and labour f@(ed up this country severely, so they could line their pockets with money from the blood sweat and tears of their gullible, naive, ignorant and arrogant 'members'.
There now, is that 'STATEMENT of FACTS' clear enough for you?
In future, if I am directing my comments to you Belly, I will make sure to firstly warn you as to whether I am giving an opinion or stating a fact.

ALTRAV yes you sure are fixed in the view your opinion is the only one that matters and mine are wrong always.
Here is a truth, over many years many posts others and mine here, with an occasional visit to the big boys section above, it is my view we in this section are not near representative of the normal.
CM threw communism at me, bet your life no poster hated them more than me.
Show me please, do they even exist anymore?
Do you truly think ult right is supported by even half of voters?
I challenge till death extremes from left or right.
Both can never ever claim majority support, IF a thread I submitted an hour ago gets a run it will show my view the middle/center path is the only one I think can prosper.
To what end is this hatred of difference is aiming for?
Racism? yes I do not like some migrants, but not all within any group including Muslims.
In the end ALTRAV your post demands I think like you do,
I if willing to be controlled by you could be a mate, all it takes is to agree with things I never will

Unions are like marriage. They start off caring but after a few years they just want control but can't manage, so the whole great idea falls into a heap with many bystanders thrown in.
End result is what we have.

indy have you ever been in a union, did you need its help, did you benefit from being a member, did it let you down, that happens.
what is the basic reason you dislike them, put some meat on your posts.
Did you fall victim to one, maybe the thief who sold 300 tickets then took off with the money? knew him
Ever see me on a winter morning leaving home no over time at 2 am? drive for 4 hours to be at a 6am meeting mid winter, did that about twenty times.
fell in to a river at 5 am mid winter tried to dry my clothes with car heater as I drove the last hour, stood cold and freezing at that meeting, know why? it was another blokes area, he was a turd, his members asked me to be there, unions, there is a difference

Indi, if I may add some info to Belly's question.
Belly, if I were to answer your question, 'what is the basic reason you hate them'?
Well let's see, bullying, strong arm tactics, threatening behaviour, being the main cause of the rise in the cost of living to EVERYONE not just union members.
Govt's handing out millions in subsidies to car makers and many other companies just to keep them competitive.
Closure of companies, and sacking of thousands of Aussie workers, because the unions made them unviable.
And the list goes on.
We already know all this and more because it's old news and anyone can read it any time, except for you and your lot, who want everyone else to believe your fanciful version of events.
Why tell us the story about you being a sucked in moron that would follow these thieves and con-men to the ends of the earth only to find when you got there, they drop you like a ton of bricks.
Where's your precious union now for all those thousands of workers who fell in the water in the middle of winter and stood there freezing their nuts off listening to a load of BS.
How many of them are being payed un-employement by your precious union.
I'll bet those pigs/union reps, leaders are all eating well today, at your expense.
Belly just because you are infatuated with some slick talking snake oil salesman, does not mean anything.
You are flawed in your demeanor.
I, on the other hand I, am a cynic, a pessimist, an optimist with a solid hold on reality and a fair ability to question things and not take them at face value.

Belly,
you're confusing the odd decent blokes in Unions with the collective outfits. I actually was sent to a course to become an AWU rep for our area. I pulled out after the delegate who addressed uor group did nothing but Howard bashing, he literally put us all off the course.
What makes me so angry about unions is their constant quest for higher wages. What does that achieve apart from subsequent higher costs of living & destroying just about all manufacturing industry in Australia.
As far as your winter experiences go let me tell you I had the very same.
Unions can be good but not when they stop showing concern about the whole Nation.
Union movement across the board need cleaning of their swamp.
I'll never forget that insufferable fat, red-faced pig of a man BL who rather than wait for us to receive our first wage so we could pay the union fees, telling us to f..k off to where we came from.

Sorry ALTRAV and indy, yes I think I was one of the good ones, know not all have been but gee do you think bosses unions are useless?
They exist you know, right now are, no truly, are fighting to replace decades old EBA s with awards that have not been updated [no wage rises] for three decades.
Lent four hungry men a thousand dollars, my whole bank account, till I could get their wages, took two weeks, went hungry, do you know such men exist in every union.ALTRAV you are in all probability a good bloke but gee you have a bigotry that is unfocused and in my view you have no evidence to support it.
A workers hands brain and body are his, he/hers they sell them, in my view gives a fair days work for a fair days pay in return
workers are AUSTRALIANS not any thing else

Belly, the reason I can say the things I say is because I have lived them.
What if I told you that the Aussie worker was one of the highest paid relative to their productivity.
My father started his own business and of course I started up there.
I watched the company grow to well over 100 staff.
Decades later, I am now retired, but my next youngest brother, (I am the oldest of three) started his own company and at last count employed over 130 people.
Now back to your comments.
The one I'm going to challenge is your claim that there has not been a wage rise in many years.
My response is, I hope there never is one ever again.
I've already explained, if you keep putting up wages, your putting up costs.
The only people who don't get it are the people themselves.
Ask a pro' and listen as they explain that the unions force the boss to up the wages.
The boss, just like the banks, is NOT going to carry that extra cost, so he adds it onto the products he makes.
You and your mob go shopping a week later and, damn, the price has gone up.
Slowly over time, it's a fact, you realise you are buying less for the same amount of money, or you are paying more for the same goods.
Now one thing that happens, that I hate, is that the boss doesn't just increase the cost by the amount he had to pay in extra wages, NO, he adds a little more, because he too wants to benefit from this wage increase.
So, if you remove the unions from the equation, you will find that there will be stability in all sectors, both in wages and goods and services.
By not increasing wages you will find that over time the prices will 'stabilise' and more often than not, even decrease.
Belly, here's a fact for you.
The unions did NOTHING to help the worker, or the country, but EVERYTHING to help themselves.
It's happening again right now.

Posted by Belly, Tuesday, 16 October 2018 4:15:06 PM-

"Got that wrong my fault, tell you this, my union fought communism here in the 40's and 50's. They do not exist now, not in numbers world wide to put on a decent bar b q.SURPRISE! it is my view this site was developed to see every view free to be covered, not just yours"

Answer-

See Socialist Alternative

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_Alternative_(Australia)

See Socialist Party

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_Alternative_(Australia)
http://thesocialist.org.au/

There have been a number of things happening since the 50's in the Labor Party in the Unions and in the Public Service. Interesting exercise might be to view the Hacktivist/ Anonymous movement though a Global Socialist/ Communist lens- that's not to say that the Hacktivist movement was pro or con Socialist- some would say Hacktivists are Anarchists, Free Speech Advocates, Anti-Globalists, Anti-Conservative, etc- The Hacktivist Movie indicates that the movement brought together people with a range of views- but there were some commonalities. The Stonewall originated- LGBTIQ World Movement in the seventies apparently joined Working Mans Organizations in order to influence Socialism to adopt LGBTIQ values.

You could probably argue that Socialism is not Communism but I find it basically the same.

It's sad that unions fought communism in the 40s and 50s only to apparently have it rear it's head again.

CM from within a trade union, one that saw two unions become one in the late eighties, let me again say communism is dead.
In fact a union, in far of Poland, named Solidarity helped kill it by removing the first brick.
I saw no hidden socialists in the committee of management meetings we had monthly.
Only those most dreadful people ALTRAV warns us about,Australian workers
Once in the heart of a steel city, saw 400 solid union members threaten to walk away, if the local head of unions again called them comrades.
ALTRAV tells us he thinks wages should never rise, that reverting to a wage set 30 years ago is ok, that bosses unions wear halo,s and workers?? room exists for some reality here.
LOOK to China, Russia and a badly led America if you want to protect us all, not phantom socialism

Belly, OK I will stand aside for a moment while you explain the virtues of constant and continual wage increases.
Have you not heard the saying, 'chasing your own tail'?
But I will abstain for the moment.
I am curious as to what your economic policy is that would justify on-going wage increases.
I've given my reasons, now please prove me wrong, I might just learn something.
'The floor is yours'.

Waste of time ALTRAV, EBA enterprise bargaining imported from Thatcher,s England works.
In good times the boss OFFERS wage rises in return for KPIs key performance indicators.
EG Less lost time injuries,less sick leave without a doctors note.flexibility around working hours, in bad times, see SA Steel mills and WOLLONGONG, pay cuts instead of job losses.

ALTRAV? back on thread SMH this day story about a cop, called our worst ever childmolester.
Thought Catholics had that in the bag
Offended in another state multiple times then did the same in yet another state.
HE WAS A SEVERVING COPPER
Took decade to? name him and our law is not broken?

Justice system took a huge downturn when parents stopped disciplining their children. It turned many teachers into child carers and multiplied violence many times over in the community.
- - Posted by runner, Monday, 8 October 2018 7:20:29 PM

The Justice system took a downturn when people, parents, realized they will punished, lose their children if they resisted, without consideration of relevant facts.

The Justice system took a downturn when many realized government decisions often made to protect Minister's rather than to fix issues arising in legislation Ministers managed.

The Justice system takes a downturn, because when the Judicial system draws attention to inconvenient facts, governments and Ministers have more money to employ lawyers to assist them to avoid dealing with the issues.

The Justice system takes a downturn for many realized governments make decisions to prevent judicial resolution of legal issues, even after issues acknowledged by Minister's and Courts as needing judicial resolution.

This is why many realize our Justice system is far more dependent on money than legal principles.

.

Prisons constructed to detain people failing to behave within boundary limits of what is acceptable to society.

Most people appearing before the courts can learn these lessons without long term prison sentences.

Some mostly repeat-offenders need short term stay in prison with appropriate counseling to learn the lesson.

A smaller percentage need longer term in prison.

How long some persons need remain in prison to become compliant, for release on Parole licence is not a simple one time judgement to determine.

Politicians and governments fail community by confusing Justice with prisons.

Justice is part of a process to educate people, to correct incorrect behavior, not just stick them in a box.

Politicians and governments are just plain stupid to suggest placing more people in prison makes communities safe or reduces co$t of Justice.

Is much cheaper to modify behavior of most with suitable programs applied while people live in wider community.

Community accepts some do need longer incarceration to ensure they start the learning process.

Many things at low cost can be done to improve prison experience and promote the learning, to do these the idea of locking them in a box and forgetting them does not help.

We all need accept some just do not learn...

.

polpak ok agree with most of that.
PC the filthy word it is, has its hand over the throat of justice.
People not exhibiting any understanding of what the community wants, are handing down less than justice
Yes kids and not my child parent need looking at.
But once the crime is committed PC not justice takes place too often