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The Forum > General Discussion > Activists More Interested Own Feelings Than In Preventing Child Abuse

Activists More Interested Own Feelings Than In Preventing Child Abuse

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Aboriginal activists have complained to the Australian Human Rights Commission that they feel “offended, insulted, humiliated and intimidated”, on the basis of their race, following a discussion about preventing child abuse in aboriginal communities on Channel Seven's 'Sunrise' program.

Rather than requesting a right of reply to whatever upset them, the activists opted for a whinge about their hurt feelings to the equally activist AHRC.

I am not aware of any other group complaining to the AHRC about their tender feelings when the transgressions of some of their kind have been revealed or discussed.

I don't think for one moment that these whiners in any way represent the majority.

(Source: Australian Conservatives website. The AC is seeking to have words like 'offend' and 'insult' removed from Sec 18c. Abolition of the AHRC is preferred.)
Posted by ttbn, Thursday, 20 September 2018 10:48:29 AM
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until the truth of some cultural practices are faced up to the murder, rape and abuse of young ones will continue. Another 10 month old baby dead yesterday in Tennant Creek. The multiple of agencies paid to protect these kids will continue to be funded. While abc celebrates the culture and bangs on about 'bullied' privilege women life rolls on for these kids. Jacinta Price is a champion but demonised by the industry.
Posted by runner, Thursday, 20 September 2018 10:22:18 PM
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3rd time question asked maybe now will get an answer.

ttbn Just a reminder you made a very controversial statement but have failed to back it up, for you here it is again.

Quote "People who are keen to display their findings by putting up references are only going to 'find’ references that support them. Fair enough, if they are that desperate to be 'right’. However, for every supporting reference they find, there will be one that says the opposite."

I would like you to point out just a few posted threads where the originator started a thread about any subject and proceeded to give the for and against arguments that related to the subject of the thread.

It would be like posting a whole debate for and against.

That includes any where you have done that.
Posted by Philip S, Thursday, 20 September 2018 11:07:27 PM
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PhilipS,
have you ever been outside your suburb ?
Posted by individual, Friday, 21 September 2018 7:33:34 AM
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individual,

I don't know how mobile this Philip S character is, but he obviously cannot read. Always squealing for references, he ignores, or doesn't understand, the SOURCE in brackets at the bottom of my post.

Apparently he is unable to look anything up on his own. There is nothing secret about what I said. He is either thick or lazy. Either way, it appears he intends to make a fool of himself through a red haze every time he sees ttbn at the bottom of a post. It's his problem, not mine. I'm certainly not going to respond to his ravings, no matter how many times he sprays them about. Somehow the poor soul has now come up with the idea that I should: “point out just a few posted threads where the originator started a thread about any subject and proceeded to give the for and against arguments that related to the subject of the thread.” I don't have the faintest idea what he is rabbiting on about. Why on earth would any poster presenting his opinion want to “give the the for and against arguments that related to the subject of the thread”?
Posted by ttbn, Friday, 21 September 2018 9:38:43 AM
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Philip,

The data on child abuse and neglect in Indigenous 'communities' isn't hard to find. What has been clear for decades now is that there is a very, very high correlation between lifelong unemployment (and the necessary and deliberate lack of education that goes with that), high consumption of grog and other addictions, gambling AND child abuse and neglect, and consequently the unacceptably high mortality amongst babies, children and young people from suicide, violent acts and malnutrition, and the short, stunted lives of those who survive.

Here's another fact you may not like: the proportion of people in custody who are Indigenous is currently round 28 %, while the proportion of deaths in custody who are Indigenous is around 23 %. It's comparatively safer for Indigenous people to be in custody than out in 'communities'.

And another inconvenient truth: how many 'Stolen Generations' cases have been brought to court, even though Indigenous people over a certain age would all have government files ? One. Bruce Trevorrow, of Meningie, SA (my late wife's second cousin, once removed). Why haven't any major law firms - Slater & Gordon, Maurice Blackburn, Leibler & Leibler - ever taken a class action to court ? There would be millions of bucks in it for them if they did AND if it was a genuine issue.

And before you go off, I'll support the Indigenous Cause until the day I die, but NEVER any lies, misrepresentations, or unsupported assertions. A just cause has to depend on the truth, and truth has to depend on evidence. No cause which relies on mistruths can stand, so I look forward to the day when Indigenous spokespeople clean up their act and face up to truths, not lies or baseless assertions.

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Friday, 21 September 2018 10:04:50 AM
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Loudmouth,
Sadly, as any other industry the guilt industry too is in decline due to the lessening demand of the product because of unaffordability.
Like many genuine cases the corrupt opportunists multiply the non-genuine by a 100 & ruin it for all. Activists are at the fore front of this unfortunate business. The good & decent indigenous are of course pushed out into the scrub so as not to be in the way.
Posted by individual, Friday, 21 September 2018 10:22:29 AM
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individual Quote "have you ever been outside your suburb ?" What a stupid question.

ttbn Again you display your ignorance by your comment quote "he ignores, or doesn't understand, the SOURCE in brackets at the bottom of my post." -- Anyone with half a brain can see my comment is not in reply to this thread of yours, just read the first two line again, here for you.
"3rd time question asked maybe now will get an answer.

ttbn Just a reminder you made a very controversial statement but have failed to back it up, for you here it is again."

Notice the words "3rd time question asked"

Loudmouth - I would have expected better from you, you failed to see it was not about this thread.

Here is your statement again ttbn

Quote "People who are keen to display their findings by putting up references are only going to 'find’ references that support them. Fair enough, if they are that desperate to be 'right’. However, for every supporting reference they find, there will be one that says the opposite."

You imply by showing a reference a person is wrong because they therefore don't show the opposing opinions, implying that to show a reference one should show the for and against of any subject matter.

I am asking you to show me where anyone has done this.
Posted by Philip S, Friday, 21 September 2018 12:54:52 PM
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Philip,

You're making the naive mistake of thinking that on every issue, there is 'balance': no, if a point of view is complete bullshirt, it may have absolutely nothing going for it, attractive as it may sound - while, on the other hand, there is stacks of evidence against it - and nobody has to go searching for evidence on your behalf. The old Roman rule still works: 'asseritur gratis, negator gratis' - what is asserted without evidence, can be ignored without the need for evidence. There is no simplistic for-and-against when it comes to bullshirt.

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Friday, 21 September 2018 2:14:10 PM
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individual Quote "have you ever been outside your suburb ?" What a stupid question.
Philip S,
Then why not refrain from comments that suggest you haven't been out of your suburb ?
Ignorance is streaming full steam from your remarks.
Posted by individual, Friday, 21 September 2018 4:18:15 PM
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Meanwhile two Aboriginal teenagers died in Perth running
away from police, and communities pushed again for
government action on the high rates of Aboriginal deaths
in custody.

Yes indeed, how dare people suggest that something could
be wrong.

Emotions always run high when it comes to the topic of
our First Nations people.

The fact that a nine-year old can elicit such a venomous
rebuke from Senators and media personalities for
refusing to stand for the national anthem to protest its
lack of recognition of our First Nations people erupted
in anger.

Defensive anger seems to be a common reaction to having
your world view challenged. It seems to be an attempt
not only to protect one's beliefs but one's "precarious
sense of identity." A defence of one's investment in
the values of the dominant culture.

The problem with growing up within the dominant culture
as many commentators have pointed out is that it is
easy to be oblivious to anything outside it. Australia's
media and political structures are still dominated by
white men of Anglo-Celtic or European background.

While in reality Australia is far more culturally diverse,
the positions that shape both the nation's politics and
stories we tell about it, are still dominated by Anglo-
Australians.

In the Uluru Statement from the Heart, our First Nations have
offered a road map. A First Nations Voice to Parliament and
a Makarrata Commission to oversee an agreement making and
truth-telling process.

We're told that the way forward may not be easy - but it
is clear.
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 21 September 2018 4:29:49 PM
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individual Quote "why not refrain from comments that suggest you haven't been out of your suburb ?"

Which comment made you come up with the above question?

Loudmouth Quote "You're making the naive mistake of thinking that on every issue, there is 'balance':"

At no stage have I stated anything like that.
Try reading this quote from ttbn.
Quote "People who are keen to display their findings by putting up references are only going to 'find’ references that support them. Fair enough, if they are that desperate to be 'right’. However, for every supporting reference they find, there will be one that says the opposite."
Posted by Philip S, Friday, 21 September 2018 5:26:45 PM
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Foxy, by anyone's reasonable thought it is obvious that aboriginals benefit more from welfare provided by white working people of Australia than anyone else. They have benefited greatly from white settlement, it is a pity they don't acknowledge that.

Perhaps when, if ever, they start pulling their weight, they will have earned the right to demand anything. While their total existence is paid for by others perhaps, they should be saying thankyou, rather than listing their demands.

They would be well advised to start earning the respect of those upon whom they depend, rather than making ridiculous demands.
Posted by Hasbeen, Friday, 21 September 2018 6:18:26 PM
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PhilipS,
So what if ttbn stated something that is not to your liking, I cop that all the time. Being pedantic is of no benefit to anyone. There's too much usage of links & hardly any useful/helpful/beneficial commenting. One's against something & the other is for it. They call that human nature, I call it not being switched on enough to ignore minor quips.
The question we must ask ourselves is do we want to continue on the path we're on or do we want to find better ways for the common good ? To blindly support one side is not progressive.
We can continue on the path we're on but are we prepared to deal with the consequences ?
I for one do not want more PC & similar nonsense interfering with my life, do you ?
Posted by individual, Friday, 21 September 2018 7:13:44 PM
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It's very difficult to ignore Aboriginal leaders
who make statements from the heart and talk
about self-determination whilst our leaders simply
brush them aside. The end result is a total breakdown
in communication and a breakdown in any sort of progress.

Putting our heads in the sand and doing nothing is not
an answer.
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 21 September 2018 7:22:23 PM
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Foxy,
sadly, this handful of leaders in the communities are so outnumbered by their own versions of the tall poppy syndrome that change will not happen anytime soon.
Posted by individual, Friday, 21 September 2018 9:08:43 PM
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'It's very difficult to ignore Aboriginal leaders
who make statements from the heart and talk
about self-determination whilst our leaders simply
brush them aside. '

Its difficult to ignore the fact that the closer these towns seem to have to self determination the worse the abuse.
Posted by runner, Friday, 21 September 2018 9:45:02 PM
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individual - I don't need to explain myself to you, you can't even answer a simple question about what part of a comment made you make such a stupid assumption to reply with this comment Quote "have you ever been outside your suburb ?"
Posted by Philip S, Friday, 21 September 2018 10:05:28 PM
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I would like you to point out just a few posted threads where the originator started a thread about any subject and proceeded to give the for and against arguments that related to the subject of the thread.

It would be like posting a whole debate for and against.

That includes any where you have done that.
Philip S,
This sounds so pedantic to me, it could be right out of the mouth of a Q&A Greens panelist.
Posted by individual, Saturday, 22 September 2018 5:36:30 AM
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individual Like before you come back with dribble but conveniently fail to answer the stupid question you originally asked, here it is again.

what part of a comment made you make such a stupid assumption to reply with this comment Quote "have you ever been outside your suburb ?"

The original quote was made by ttbn.
Quote "People who are keen to display their findings by putting up references are only going to 'find’ references that support them. Fair enough, if they are that desperate to be 'right’. However, for every supporting reference they find, there will be one that says the opposite."

So it appears you find that okay but have objection to someone that wants it backed up and to show examples of its usage, because to me no one does it not even the person who said it.

People generally do not post links for the reason ttbn stated and his conclusions as to why defy logic.

So please direct your next reply to answering the question you were asked not trying to kowtow to ttbn by being his mouthpiece
Posted by Philip S, Saturday, 22 September 2018 10:46:26 AM
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Philip S,
because you appear more consumed with being proven right for some pedantic academic point than about finding or at least offering solutions to the problem outlined by the topic of the thread.
What's your soloution to this statement ?
Activists More Interested Own Feelings Than In Preventing Child Abuse
Mine is to cut the funding to these activists & make them work in & for their communities rather than just keep stirring the over-cooked stew at everyone's expense.
Posted by individual, Saturday, 22 September 2018 11:21:32 AM
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individual - Regrettably you demonstrate your ignorance again, you again refuse to answer the question.
Again.

what part of a comment made you make such a stupid assumption to reply with this comment Quote "have you ever been outside your suburb ?"

I will help you out NONE because if you read my original comment properly you will understand my question to ttbn had no relationship to this thread, it was posted there after ttbn's started the thread so the person in question would be sure to see it and after the 3rd time may answer the question.

So when you go back and read it properly, it should be clear.

You will also notice that the originator has been on the board posting on other threads but failing to reply here leaving the commenting up to you.
Posted by Philip S, Saturday, 22 September 2018 12:17:57 PM
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indvidual,

As you say. People probably think twice these days about starting a thread because, after a couple of posts, the topic is ignored and posters start up their own, irrelevant, chat - usually about themselves, but never anything to do with the topic. They should stick to playing Solitaire.
Posted by ttbn, Saturday, 22 September 2018 12:36:22 PM
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I would like you to point out just a few posted threads where the originator started a thread about any subject and proceeded to give the for and against arguments that related to the subject of the thread.
Philip S,
It really deosn't matter one iota if a thread goes all over the place because that just shows that people are concerned with more than just a single point in a discussion that can encompass a wide range of points. Normal conversations/debates will spread all over the place as they should because focussing one a single point & ignoring the wider possibilities is nothing more than pointless.
Posted by individual, Saturday, 22 September 2018 1:01:39 PM
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LM,

"how many 'Stolen Generations' cases have been brought to court, even though Indigenous people over a certain age would all have government files ? One. Bruce Trevorrow,"

Not quite true. Other cases (eg Gunner-Cabillo) have been bought to court but all have failed to demonstrate the existence of a stolen generation. In the above case, its was found that Gunner's mother had tried to kill him to hide her shame at having had a half-caste child and that he was taken for his own protection.

Even the case of Trevorrow isn't an example of finding a member of the stolen generation. He succeeded in his case because it was found that he was taken CONTRARY to government policy whereas the stolen generation claims are that there was government policy to separate the children from their parents. In Trevorrow's case, no such policy existed.

The Stolen Generation is a myth. That the nation has accepted is as fact in all contravention of the actual data says a lot about our anxiety to not question claims from the aboriginal lobby.
Posted by mhaze, Saturday, 22 September 2018 1:27:31 PM
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We now know a great deal about the history of
Indigenous-Settler relations. It is now
possible to explore the past by means of a
large number of materials held in archival
collections in our national and state libraries.
Of course learning and knowing brings burdens
which can be shirked by those living in ignorance
and denial. With knowledge the question is no
longer what we know - but what we are now to do,
and that is a much harder matter to deal with.
It will continue to perplex us for many years to
come.

Prof. Peter Read ANU School of history writes:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2008-02-15/37108
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 22 September 2018 3:15:53 PM
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Dearest Foxy,

Those two boys were running from custody - they were not in custody. If they had been, they would still be alive. Weird: what sort of Sports Academy - on the banks of a river - doesn't teach its students to swim ?

As for deaths in custody, 28 % or so of all people currently in custody are Indigenous. In the last year or two, 23 % of deaths in custody have been of Indigenous people. Indigenous people ar safer in custody than outside of it.

Sorry, MHaze, you're right: other cases have been brought to court, but none have been successful. I suppose my puzzlement was that so few had been brought to court, out of the thousands of kids taken into care for neglect and abuse, who may now claim to be stolen 'for no reason'. Perhaps they've seen their files and re-considered.

AND the Trevorrow case was in contravention of the law at the time. I knew both his mother Thora and the social worker Marj Angus (who is buried at the 'Mission' cemetery) who acted so improperly, perhaps on the grounds that Bruce was definitely suffering neglect - and actually near death: he had to be whipped into the Royal Adelaide Hospital by ambulance. I suppose now, given the paranoid nature of so much ''discussion' around Indigenous issues, that I will be accused of suggesting that Bruce, a one-year-old baby, was whipped, probably by the social worker.

No, at the time, all Aboriginal people, at least in SA, had a file: my wife had one, and she was able to easily get access to it, as well as to her mother's. Some delightful surprises too :)

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Saturday, 22 September 2018 3:32:11 PM
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Foxy,

"With knowledge the question is no
longer what we know - but what we are now to do,
and that is a much harder matter to deal with..."

Simple really; treat all Australian subjects equally.

First Nation? What First Nation, there wasn't any.
The notion of Nationhood came with the First Fleet and the multiple warring tribes, that spoke no common language were incapable of forming the concept.

One wonders why the Aboriginal Australians, who want to be recognised as such, do not follow their ancestors in dress and such, their dances and ceremonies are much more interesting when viewed in their true cultural context.
Posted by Is Mise, Saturday, 22 September 2018 3:41:33 PM
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The question comes to mind - do we treat everyone
equally in this country? Or are our Indigenous
people treated differently? Do the police in the
NT treat our Indigenous people the same as they treat
the white folks? Do hospitals provide Indigenous people
with the same sort of care as they do the white folks?
Are schools on the same level for Aboriginal kids?
And the questions keep coming.

Should all Aboriginals be treated as one homogeneous
group - or should they be treated on a case-by-case basis?

Many poor migrant families are financially supported until
they stand on their own feet. If a migrant can create a
life for themselves using government support why not an
Indigenous Australian who was born here?

What's the difference between the two groups and is it because
one is treated better than the other?
Are there growth opportunities equally for both?

Why is it taking so long for good changes to happen for our
Indigenous people?
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 22 September 2018 4:38:05 PM
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individual you have just proven beyond any doubt your ignorance of the English language, you have continually failed to answer a simple question relating to why you made a certain comment that was totally not called for and would be considered juvenile.
Quote
what part of a comment made you make such a stupid assumption to reply with this comment Quote "have you ever been outside your suburb ?"

Then you even after having it explained to you in simple English come back with a load of gibberish thinking it is about threads going off track.

ttbn Best thing you do is sit on the side and don't say anything hoping it will go away, sorry that will not happen.

Loudmouth in case you missed it, maybe you realized you misinterpreted what was said (I have done that before) but do not want to admit your mistake.
Loudmouth Quote "You're making the naive mistake of thinking that on every issue, there is 'balance':"

At no stage have I stated anything like that.
Try reading this quote from ttbn.
Quote "People who are keen to display their findings by putting up references are only going to 'find’ references that support them. Fair enough, if they are that desperate to be 'right’. However, for every supporting reference they find, there will be one that says the opposite."
Posted by Philip S, Saturday, 22 September 2018 5:38:23 PM
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Is the stealing of generations still going on ? Or are vulnerable children now left at the mercy of incompetent parents ?
When did last such removal occur & where ?
I have heard that quite a number of non-Aboriginal/Islander children are in the care of some Govt institutions but I haven't heard how many. There was a program on TV the other day where they spoke about those english stolen children, just terrible. And then there are those poor kids in the conflict zones around the middle east & the subcontinent.
Why doesn't the UN step in & stop that ? Aren't there any careers in that ? Is the money no good ? What is it that makes the UN stay away from these problems ?
At least in Australia compensation is paid & also provided is housing, something the war kids don't get unless the people smugglers bring them out here.
Does UN stand for United Nations or Useless Nerds.
Posted by individual, Saturday, 22 September 2018 6:40:42 PM
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" I suppose my puzzlement was that so few had been brought to court, out of the thousands of kids taken into care for neglect and abuse, who may now claim to be stolen 'for no reason'. Perhaps they've seen their files and re-considered. "

The Gunner-Cabillo case was pivotal. The aboriginal industry had hand picked these two as the best representatives of the stolen generation. The idea was to hold the case, prove their claims for compensation and then pressure the government into paying claims to all other claimants without the need for messy proof. Remember that the ABC, who of course were (cough, cough!) completely impartial on the issue, stopped all programming to bring the court findings to the nation. They were disappointed to say the least that the court decided to go with the facts rather than the sentiment.

The shock of finding that their best examples of stolen kids were indeed not stolen is the reason no other cases have been raised. There has never been a single example of a validated stolen child. Remember Lois O'Donaghue - she claimed to be stolen until the data was tracked down showing that her parents had begged the authorities to take her into care. Ditto Charlie Perkins.

Ever since the truth started to come out, there has been attempts to redefine the meaning of the term from what it meant during the Royal Commission. (eg the article Foxy chose to believe. The truth doesn't matter to these people so long as they can continue to deceive the Foxy's of this world.
Posted by mhaze, Saturday, 22 September 2018 10:34:15 PM
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individual,

Philip S doesn't need our help make him look like a dick. Let's leave him to it.
Posted by ttbn, Saturday, 22 September 2018 10:41:54 PM
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"We now know a great deal about the history of
Indigenous-Settler relations. It is now
possible to explore the past by means of a
large number of materials held in archival
collections in our national and state libraries."

Yes, we now know that historians in the recent past sought to distort the facts to further the narrative so as to keep the gullible and especially the willingly gullible (eg Foxy) on side.

Examples?

the numbers about the aboriginals killed in the so-called black wars were deliberately and enormously exaggerated.

evidence for massacres that didn't happen was created out of thin air. In one case it was claimed the massacre was proven due to a contemporary newspaper article. Except the article didn't exist and the newspaper didn't exist at the time.

quotes were altered such that attempts by the authorities to protect aboriginals from farmers were changed to sound like the authorities were rounding up aboriginals to protect farmers. When exposed the perpetrator simply admitted the lie but suffered no consequences.

And the gullible will never know what's been going on under their noses.
Posted by mhaze, Saturday, 22 September 2018 10:45:14 PM
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ttbn

Quote "individual,

Philip S doesn't need our help make him look like a dick. Let's leave him to it."

Nice to see you surface now your lackey individual has proven he can't comprehend plain English, by the way I am still waiting for the answer to your ludicrousness comment.
Just for you.
Quote "People who are keen to display their findings by putting up references are only going to 'find’ references that support them. Fair enough, if they are that desperate to be 'right’. However, for every supporting reference they find, there will be one that says the opposite."

You imply by showing a reference a person is wrong because they therefore don't show the opposing opinions, implying that to show a reference one should show the for and against of any subject matter.

I am asking you to show me where anyone has done this.

Your refusal to answer highlights that you put fingers to keyboard without first activating brain to come up with a better response thus spewing out garbage you can't explain.
Posted by Philip S, Saturday, 22 September 2018 11:07:14 PM
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Whenever there is Govt involvement any scheme will be open to exploitation because the bureaucrats take sides & leave loopholes for the purpose of opportunistic exploitation.
The flogg petty issues to death simply to smoke-screen the real problems.
Posted by individual, Saturday, 22 September 2018 11:34:10 PM
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I'm not sure whether the accusation of being gullible
is an apt description of my findings and research on
the subject of our Indigenous people. Those who buy
what Keith Windschuttle was selling could also be accused
of being gullible. However the number of historians who
disagree with the man far outnumber those who agree. There
are so many references and documentation available - to
get clarity on the subject these days that I frankly cannot
understand why anyone would want to deny or lie to themselves
about Australia's Indigenous past.

http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2018/jan/24/massacres-protest-australia-day-undeniable-history

http://www.australianstogether.org.au/discover/australian-history/get-over-it/

There's also plenty of references listed in the Bibliographes
given - enabling further research on the subject.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 23 September 2018 11:16:10 AM
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Dear Foxy,

Re Windschuttle: the truth is not a beauty contest, with the 'winner' of historical documentation being the one who - gosh - a lot of people agree with. The truth is what it is, and has to be sought out, it's not just what we would like it to be.

I typed up the 8,500 letters of the SA Protector, 2.500 pages of it, 1839 to 1913 [all on my web-site: www.firstsources.info]. Yes, there were killings, on both sides, entire families, and entire ship's crew and passengers, overland parties - and individual killings on both sides as well. Probably it worked out as two or three Aboriginal people for every white fella.

No, there is no evidence (from the Letters) of people being driven off their land - it would have been illegal anyway (they had the right, sanctioned by London's Colonial Office, to carry out all their traditional practices under English common law), and after all, pastoralists needed labour (which is why so many offered, for free, to act as issuers of rations). If you have evidence to the contrary, I would be happy to consider it.

No, there is no evidence, during that period, of children being 'stolen' - in fact, I'm amazed how few children seemed even to be neglected or otherwise put into care: a handful of young orphan girls, usually the children of single mothers who had died. After all, this is back in the days before single mothers' benefits, old age pensions, unemployment benefits, etc. You sort of wonder how anybody got by unless they had property or savings behind them.

The last Aboriginal bloke executed was in 1862, 25 years after 'settlement'; the last white fella hanged was in 1964. 102 years later.

These are facts, the truth, the evidence, the outcomes of policy, one way or another. Like so many virtuous people, I should wish that many more Aboriginal people were killed, but I can't.

[TBC]
Posted by Loudmouth, Sunday, 23 September 2018 4:52:43 PM
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Dear Foxy,

[continued]

I'm very uneasy about a sort of triumphalism amongst whites, now, on the left AND the right: a smug (if much regretted) belief that whites were so powerful, so almighty, yet so brutal (they were not us, after all: really ?) that they could do more or less whatever they liked [yeah, we were bastards all right, but so efficient, so superior in every way];

-while on the Aboriginal side, a similar belief, that they themselves were so powerless, so innocent of all evil, so put-upon, so down-trodden, by the all-powerful, brutal whites of yesteryear, that they should do nothing but throw themselves on the mercy of whites now. I don't buy either side of the story.

Sorry.

Love,

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Sunday, 23 September 2018 4:55:23 PM
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Dear Joe,

I realise just how passionately you feel about this
subject and how much research you've done. Compared to
you I'm probably just a novice. However I do try to bear
in mind that there is more than one side to every story.
And it is not wise to accept any one interpretation of events
as your only source of information. I find it important to
listen to various points of view in order to try to detect
the bias that authors might have. After all history books
simply tell us how the authors have interpreted the past.
And as we've both admitted previously - to study the past
properly it is best to go back to the primary sources.
If they are available. From these sources we can try to look
at many different persons' viewpoints and
draw our own conclusions.

Sometimes as you know it is very difficult to find primary
sources on all topics. We then turn to history books and
writing by historians - but even they are never completely
"gospel." We need to ask questions and we need to look at
as many history books as possible to get a fair picture of
the past.

Also we must be able to ask the relevant questions and listen,
not only for the answers, but for the silences. When we ask
a question about the past and cannot get an answer, that
too tells us something - it could mean that what we asked was
not considered worth writing about or that that aspect of the
past was not relevant to people of that time.

I don't mean to waffle on here - but I don't want you to think
that I don't respect your point of view. I do.

My viewpoint just happens to differ from yours.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 23 September 2018 6:15:26 PM
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Thank you, dear Foxy, I wish so much that I could adopt your viewpoint, without any more angst. But fifty-odd years wanting to believe and having - bam ! bam ! bam ! - those beliefs kicked in the guts, crapped on, laugh at, betrayed really - there comes a point where you stand back and demand evidence for every hitherto-unquestioned assertion.

The Hindmarsh Island Secret Women's Business probably did it for me. No, years before living in a 'community' did 'community' for me. And 'self-determination' too. All a complete fraud. And some research I later did on that community in 1982 on poverty levels, in which, try as I might, I found that average income there was equal to the Australian average. Suicide was contemplated, but clearly I wimped out on that.

Deaths in custody ? Even before the Royal Commission began, its staff admitted that deaths were lower than would be expected: 22 % of deaths Indigenous , but 23 % of people in custody Indigenous. I stood back a bit from the 'Stolen Generation' stuff since I didn't know anybody who had been 'stolen' - taken into care for a short time, yes; neglected, yes; abused, yes. Kids who I knew who should have been protected by being taken into care. I recall one woman stuffing herself with a whole chicken, her son trying to get a bit, but she rebuffed him with, "F. off, you black ape." Charming. So tell me about loving, self-sacrificing parents.

Before I looked at the Protector's letters, I assumed that I would find all manner of rationales for this brutal policy or that, but found none: I don't think there was any sort of brutal policy, apart from the obviously inconvenient one that whites were now here and hopefully people would get used to it. Pretty much the same dilemma as you and I face today, like every other white fella. I found myself, over and over again, asking: would I have done anything very different from what the Protector did ? No, came the usual answer.

Love,

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Sunday, 23 September 2018 8:09:38 PM
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Foxy,

Joe posted, ''I typed up the 8,500 letters of the SA Protector, 2.500 pages of it, 1839 to 1913 [all on my web-site: www.firstsources.info]. "

Those are what are called primary sources, I would have thought that you'd know that.

How're you going on the First Nation concept?
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 23 September 2018 11:20:23 PM
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Philip S said- "You imply by showing a reference a person is wrong because they therefore don't show the opposing opinions, implying that to show a reference one should show the for and against of any subject matter."

Answer- Usually it's best to try give an "objective independent source"- usually the sources here are less than this standard. I can sort of understand those that don't see the point of providing references- they may believe that there is sufficient evidence available through simple searches to establish their point. They may believe that those that would require a reference would never accept their point anyway. There is an issue of the 350 word limit that can get in the way of providing credible arguments. Generally I give them the benefit of the doubt- if someone states something and I disagree I can provide a counter example with references if I feel it's warranted.
Posted by Canem Malum, Monday, 24 September 2018 9:05:56 AM
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Joe (Loudmouth) posted, ''I typed up the 8,500 letters of the SA Protector, 2.500 pages of it, 1839 to 1913 [all on my web-site: www.firstsources.info]. "

Answer- Very good job Loudmouth. This sort of work is very important- transcribing "images of letters" to "text" so that they're searchable. In time character recognition will make this automated but that doesn't help us if we need it now! Thanks again Loudmouth- through the chair.
Posted by Canem Malum, Monday, 24 September 2018 9:11:19 AM
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Dear Joe, and Is Mise,

Lots of things were done in the name of "protection."
Also not all records of everything were kept.
The following link explains. It's only the tip of the
iceberg - depending on who you read.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protector_of_Aborigines

As I stated earlier - the issues are complex.
And we need to respect each other's opinions and
findings.
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 24 September 2018 10:33:50 AM
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The Protectors were undermined by the academic do-gooders which gave rise to the activists & other insipid unemployables. The ones who suffered the consequences were/are of course the everyday Indigenous & the everyday non-indigenous by seeing their taxes wasted.
Posted by individual, Monday, 24 September 2018 11:55:15 AM
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Foxy,

What about that First Nation business and, whilst I think of it, where did Aboriginal Australians get all that traditional red cloth?

Did they weave it themselves?
Posted by Is Mise, Monday, 24 September 2018 3:54:23 PM
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Dear Foxy,

Yes, probably eight thousand letters and 2,500 pages are only the tip of the iceberg. Maybe we should suspect that somewhere, there are other letters which paint quite a different picture.

Good luck finding them :). But you have to run with what you've got.

Love,

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Monday, 24 September 2018 8:12:56 PM
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Dear Joe,

Regarding our
Indigenous people - as we all know, not everything
was recorded and much that was, was under the guise of
"protection." Still, today we do have access to a great
deal that helps paint a fuller picture. And as you stated
you've got to go with what you've got - but that's the
difficult part - questioning what you've got is part of
getting to the full truth of the matter.

There's also documented archival film evidence that paints
a bigger picture. BTW - authorities do often choose the
available information (true of false) to suit their
policies and their political government agenda of the time.

For example during the Second World War hundreds of English
children were brought to Australia and housed in orphanages
where they had to earn their keep and were mistreated.
Yet there are people in denial about those times. The same
is even more true about our Indigenous people.
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 25 September 2018 10:35:03 AM
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Dear Foxy,

Perhaps you're right: whatever documentation there might be - 8,500 letters, a million words - might all be doctored and flawed (who knows, maybe I forged many of those letters, I'm such a bastard), even if it's backed up by another couple of thousand pages of Royal Commission transcripts, mission letters, missionary's journals, etc. - while the real truth is still out there even though there is, so far, not the slightest evidence that it exists.

It's important to keep an open mind, that what you see, thousands of pages of it, may be 'false news', and the real truth is hidden or worse, deliberately suppressed - which, in turn, of course needs to be evidenced. Good luck with all of that.

On the other hand, you could run with what you've got until you get more information (five thousand pages and a couple of million words obviously may not be enough), in the complete absence of any alternative data, and given that what IS available can be corroborated and cross-referenced in many ways.

Evidence OR suspicion. We all make our choices.

Love,

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Tuesday, 25 September 2018 11:10:55 AM
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Dear Joe,

As always, I can't argue with your logic. ;-)
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 25 September 2018 12:35:26 PM
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". Those who buy
what Keith Windschuttle was selling could also be accused
of being gullible. However the number of historians who
disagree with the man far outnumber those who agree. "

Well yes, Foxy, there are a lot of historians who disagree with Windschuttle and his supporters. But then again there are a lot of historians whose careers and reputation depend on trying to discredit Windschuttle and his supporters. Specifically the people who were shown to have distorted the evidence to enhance the case they were making and those who bought that distortion without bothering to check it themselves. Those latter then built careers around the beliefs that distorted evidence created. All of these have a very great interest in maintaining the distortion and minimising the effects of the revelations of evidence tampering.

It is said that science advances one funeral at a time. Ditto history. We'll need to wait for those historians who based their 'history' around the political needs of the time to exit the scene before others more interested in the truth than the politics can set the history aright.

There are many examples of this distortion of the data. I gave three such examples since these are beyond dispute, with the perpetrators of the untruths being forced to admit it. Yet still we have the Foxy's of this world effectively declaring that since I don't want that to be true, its isn't true, facts be damned.

And this passes for scholarship.

Oh dear.
Posted by mhaze, Tuesday, 25 September 2018 1:47:48 PM
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mhaze,

Oh dear, is absolutely spot on.

What passes for scholarship - another viewpoint
argued:

http://evatt.org.au/papers/whitewash.html

That's what makes it so interesting.
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 25 September 2018 3:30:11 PM
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Yes Foxy, I agree that you can find many historians who have written articles and essays and even books trying to debunk Windschuttle's finding. Almost all of these have a vested interest in doing so.

One such is Robert Manne who wrote the article in your link. Robert Manne who is utterly convinced of the stolen generation story but unable to name even one proven member of that group. (He has resorted to going back into the deep past where records are dim and then claiming that the lack of records proves his point.)

But again we find people saying with great certainty that Windschuttle is wrong and not offering any evidence for the claim.

Did Reynolds falsify his quote? Yes. Did Ryan make up evidence about a massacre? Yes. But those of a certain leaning will just pretend not to notice and then rely on others to tell them its OK to not notice.
Posted by mhaze, Tuesday, 25 September 2018 4:22:21 PM
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It seems that regardless of what the facts say on the matter, there are an awful lot of Aboriginal people who believe very definitely and strongly, with a runner-like conviction, that they were stolen.

http://www.australianstogether.org.au/stories-v2/

And it seems to me that that belief, and those memories - even if they are false memories nefariously implanted by SJW's as a stratagem in the indefatigable culture wars (sorry, does this sound a bit 'tinfoil hat' to anybody else?) - are more to blame for the dysfunction in some parts of the Aboriginal community than the facts... whatever they may be.

So: how do we deal with that problem? How do you guys think we should deprogram their brainwashing? What if we set up a kickstarter for our mate Keith to travel round Australia, personally explaining to all the people who mistakenly think they've been stolen why they're wrong because he's much cleverer than them, and if they haven't got a bit of paper with an official government stamp saying 'stolen' on it then it must all be in their heads? I can't see how that could possibly fail to work.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Tuesday, 25 September 2018 5:52:56 PM
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mhaze,

Sorry your misinformed. Robert Manne got quite a large number
of historians to contribute with essays to his book - all writing
and sharing their research and findings.

Windschuttle's
research has been criticised by many.

Lets leave it there - to continue to argue the point won't
achieve anything.
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 25 September 2018 6:36:07 PM
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if someone has information to the contrary could they please enlighten us on this;
Wasn't it the practice in tribal warfare to knock the blokes on the noggin with a null nulla & then raid the camp & take women & kids ?
Were they stolen differently ? Was this less traumatic for the littlies because there were no do-gooders then to stir them up as being victims ?
Posted by individual, Tuesday, 25 September 2018 6:39:09 PM
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Indy,

You might enjoy the following:

'A Song of Hope"
By Oodgeroo (Kath Walker).

"Look up, my people
The dawn is breaking
The world is waking
To a bright new day
When none defame us
No restriction tame us
No colour shame us
Nor sneer dismay

Now brood no more
On the years behind you
The hope assigned you
Shall the past replace
When a juster justice
Grown wise and stronger
Points the bone no longer
At a darker race

So long we waited
Bound and frustrated
Till hate be hated
And caste deposed
Now light shall guide us
No goal denied us
And all doors open
That long were closed

See plain the promise
Dark freedom lover
Night's nearly over
And though long the climb
New rights will greet us
New mateship meet us
And joy complete us
In our new Dream Time

To our fathers' fathers
The pain, the sorrow
To our childrens' children
the glad tomorrow."
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 25 September 2018 7:32:16 PM
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Hi Toni,

In the past, Aboriginal people were documented, up, down and bloody sideways. My wife had a file. Her mum had a file. Everybody had/has a file. In the material that I transcribed, the names of around two thousand Aboriginal people come up, sometimes very often, and I put them into an Index for their present-day relatives to check if they wished.

Of course, people are going to assert - and even believe - that they were taken from their loving parents 'for no reason': nobody likes to admit that they were neglected or abused, especially if it' the daily norm. But the lawyers and law firms that they may have taken their plight to, are not mugs either: they do due diligence and look up the files, if people bring them - and of course they have access to them: imagine the lawyer' picnic if it was found that state agencies were refusing to allow Aboriginal people access to their own files.

So let's presume that that happened, that lawyers have perused people's files. Yet no new court cases. Certainly not any successful cases, not since Bruce Trevorrow's around ten years ago. Why's that ? Tens of thousands of SG claims, yet none before any court. Everybody with a file, yet nobody taking theirs to court. Hmmm ....... what's wrong with this picture ?

Dearest Foxy,

Yes, passion and emotion and pity can be used against evidence, that's the basis of the current Indigenous Narrative, after all. Sorry, I've learnt to be wary of such tactics, having wallowed in it for sixty years. As an ex-Communist, and Maoist, who has learnt the hard (and long) way not to have too much faith in lofty declarations of principle - while the execution squads were going full-pelt round the back. The Indigenous Narrative has similarities to (and differences from) that ghastly charade, and transcribing five thousand pages (two million words ?) of primary documents does tend to slant my perceptions away from it somewhat.

[TBC]
Posted by Loudmouth, Wednesday, 26 September 2018 11:21:58 AM
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[continued]

I think there are some gross misunderstandings about our history on both sides, and the older and grouchier I get, the more I have to ask for some sort of evidence for any assertions: as Christopher Hitchens said, "He [or she] who asserts must prove".

I certainly don't have the answers, but it does seem that - like all of us - Aboriginal people have, since the beginning of the invasion, acted on the basis of their own perception of the world and how works, and on a necessarily faulty grasp of what the hell was going on - after all, they did not miraculously and immediately comprehend fully all the intricacies of the new society thrust in their direction. We all have pre-suppositions and those are what we act on, not 'a full understanding of objective reality'.

For example, after the War, with very high demand for labour, the old Anglo working class, based in the cities, was far more able to seize opportunities there, and to become aware of the possibilities that their kids might get out of the working class through higher education. Aboriginal people also seized work opportunities, but in rural areas - it took another generation fo them and their kids to move to the cities and come to understand the opportunities there, including, eventually, higher education. Hence, Aboriginal HE numbers rose rapidly about a generation after those of kids of the old working class - from, say, 1990, compared to 1960.

But maybe half of the Aboriginal population missed the boat entirely, preferring lifelong welfare to education and work, and being maintained by much of the other half. Now, in 2018, the worry is that young people may not be educated either enough or in the right fields to take advantage of jobs in the near future: so where does that leave Aboriginal people on lifelong welfare ? How many generations behind ? And the more remote, the more behind, especially if they have so many people going into bat for them in refusing to send their kids to school.

Love anyway,

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Wednesday, 26 September 2018 11:37:07 AM
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Dear Joe,

I greatly appreciate your taking the time and
effort to respond. The commons ground shared by all
participants in the debate is that they perceive history
to be of enormous importance. I'll leave the last word
to Noel Pearson:

"We need to appreciate the complexity of the past and
not reduce history to a shallow field of point scoring.
I believe that there is much that is worth preserving in the
cultural heritage of our dispossessors as a nation."

"The
Australian community has a collective consciousness that
encompasses a responsibility for the present and future, and
the past. To say that ordinary Australians who are part of the
national community today do not have any connection with the
shameful aspects of our past is at odds with our exhortations
that they have connections to the prideful bits."

"If there is
one thing about the colonial heritage of Australia that
Indigenous Australians might celebrate along with John Howard
it must surely be the fact that upon the shoulders of the
English settlers or invaders-call them what you will, came
the common law of England and with it the civilised institution
of native title. What more redemptive prospect can be
painted about our country's colonial past?"
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 26 September 2018 1:34:02 PM
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Dearest Foxy,

I can sympathise with Noel Pearson, but the harsh reality is that the Invasion/whatever of Australia was inevitable - if it wasn't the British, it would have been the French, The Spanish, the Dutch, and later the Russians and the Japanese. We're not talking about just Australia but the entire Pacific, New Zealand, the Solomons etc. Would the world have left it alone forever ? Even today ? Of course not. But that's a hard one to swallow for Indigenous people, I can appreciate that. Yet ......

Yes, it happened. But even a sympathetic observer like Professor W. E. H. Stanner could reluctantly point out that, in his long experience, he had never known of any Aboriginal person to choose to go back out and live a fully traditional life, once they experienced that outside world. The temperature here in SA dipped towards zero degrees this morning: I wouldn't want anybody to be sitting bare-arsed around a camp-fire this morning, contemplating yet another day spent gathering grass-seed after sixty thousand years of it.

The ration system must have liberated Aboriginal women enormously: instead of women and girls spending all bloody day (for 60,000 years) gathering grass-seed for damper, then taking up hours grinding it, etc., all they had to do was stroll over to the ration depot and get their pound of flour per head, already ground, stroll back, make a damper, and then enjoy the rest of the day sitting and chatting with each other. Just a thought.

Love,

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Wednesday, 26 September 2018 2:14:20 PM
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"Sorry [mhaze] your misinformed."

Misinformed about what is unstated.

I've observed that Foxy is big on assertion and light on evidence. Just make the evidence-free assertion and then demand that others not be so uncivil as to dispute it.

So what am I misinformed about? That Manne wrote a book? Well I own the book (as a companion to my copy of Windschuttle's book) so that can't be it.

That Manne found plenty of allies? Well since I'd previously written that " I agree that you can find many historians who have written articles and essays and even books trying to debunk Windschuttle's findings " that surely can't be it either.

I guess that in Foxy-land the only way to not fully agree with her is to be misinformed in general.

It also seems that merely having a lot of people writing their opposition to Windschuttle is proof enough for Foxy that he's wrong. You know...safety in numbers, always travel with the herd. That lot's of people and an increasing number write to support Windschuttle doesn't seem, however, to mean anything.

Oh and just on Manne's book...nowhere in that book among the many authors, does anyone try, let alone succeed, to disprove or challenge Windschuttle's findings of error involving the leaders of the black armband view of aboriginal history.

But, it seems, that matters not at all in Foxy-land.
Posted by mhaze, Wednesday, 26 September 2018 3:26:27 PM
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mhaze,

My, you do carry on.

My correction of you - was that Manne's book did not contain
just his opinion . It included essays from many
historians. Which if you have his book you should
have known that.

So what's your problem?
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 26 September 2018 3:38:23 PM
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" It seems that regardless of what the facts say on the matter, there are an awful lot of Aboriginal people who believe very definitely and strongly, with a runner-like conviction, that they were stolen. "

Yes there are a lot who fervently believe what they've been told about their childhood. I see nothing wrong in letting them retain those comforting stories, so long as it doesn't devolve into demands for government action to right wrongs that didn't occur or to force others to concur with those fantasies.

I always felt a little sorry for poor Peter Gunner. Raised to believe he had been ripped from the arms of a loving mother by a heartless, racist government he was used as a stalking horse by the aboriginal lobby and the ABC (but I repeat myself). Only to find in court that he was despised by his mother as living proof of her shame at having a half-caste child, reject by his tribe for the same reason and that his mother had sought to resolve her shame by trying to kill him by shoving the babe done a rabbit-hole. Finally, when he was no longer of use to the aboriginal lobby and the ABC (but I repeat myself), abandoned all over again.

And that's been the pattern over and over. Louise O'Donaghue suffered a similar finding. Perkins too. The Rabbit Proof Fence girls. And so on.

I see no value in disabusing them of their comforting tales...so long as it remains a private story they tell themselves. But the aboriginal lobby and the ABC (but I repeat myself) won't let that happen.
Posted by mhaze, Wednesday, 26 September 2018 3:43:48 PM
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individual,

"Wasn't it the practice in tribal warfare to knock the blokes on the noggin with a null nulla & then raid the camp & take women & kids ?"

Pretty much correct. Remember these were a stone age people living a stone age life and doing what stone age tribes the world over have always done.

Blaney calculates that the annual male death toll among pre-European tribes due to war rivalled that of the WW1 trenches. That lasted for four years but the aboriginal carnage occurred every year over every century.

Following these wars, women indeed were taken as captives and incorporated in their new tribe at the lowest levels. I'm not sure kids were taken however. They need women but not the kids.

Among stone age peoples this was usual. A small grouping need a regular injection of new genes (not that they knew it) and taking women from other tribes evolved as the best way to do it.

This wasn't such a good outcome for the women. Even in their own tribe they were little more than chattels but in the new tribe they had even less status. Archaeological examination of pre-European female skeletons shows that about 30% had suffered severe trauma to the skull and about 70% had suffered broken limbs. Even today aboriginal women suffer beatings at the hands of their men at rates vastly greater than any other part of the community.
Posted by mhaze, Wednesday, 26 September 2018 4:01:17 PM
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well said mhaze. You only need to see massive amounts of Indigeneous kids today who are totally neglected, abused, ignored by parents as depicted by Bill Leak. It must be a horrible thing to face up to the fact that your father or mother love their booze and drugs so much that you become a nuiscance. It is certainly criminal to demonise the rest of society for their choices. As the natural family has been destroyed we see this trend taking place more and more in white families also.
Posted by runner, Wednesday, 26 September 2018 4:02:58 PM
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"My correction of you - was that Manne's book did not contain
just his opinion . It included essays from many
historians. Which if you have his book you should
have known that."

Well that's just wonderful Foxy. Except nowhere did I say or even suggest that Manne's book contained only his opinion. So just making stuff up again while avoiding the facts.

Surely by now Foxy you'll have realised that when you simply make stuff up about me or my views that I will not supinely let you get away with it but will instead call you out on this behaviour.

You've previously told me that calling you out on this behaviour is ungentlemanly but so long as you continue to act in this manner, I'll continue to call you out on it.
Posted by mhaze, Wednesday, 26 September 2018 4:10:32 PM
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mhaze,

Please take a look at your post to me at the
end of page nine and again at the link I
gave written by Prof. Manne earlier to which
you responded. I was not nor am I ever in the
habit of avoiding anything. I merely respond
to what I read. If I misunderstood what you
were posting - then I stand corrected. However,
you seem to take a great delight in trying to
prove me wrong, especially when my views don't
agree with yours. So all I can do is blow you
a great big raspberry Sir. And tell you to keep
up the good work. You're doing a great job.
There, even you have to admit - that's fair!
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 26 September 2018 4:22:09 PM
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prove me wrong, especially when my views don't
agree with yours.
Foxy,
Are you sure about 'your views' ? I get the distinct feeling that almost everything you post is quoting some academic or provide links to some academic quotes.
It is very rare indeed to read posts by you that you're actually appear to be the author of.
In your words then what do you believe should be done to close that "Gap" ?
Posted by individual, Wednesday, 26 September 2018 6:36:43 PM
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Indy,

I form my opinions after I get the facts
if possible. If the facts are not easily
available - I quote from reputable sources
especially in fields where I'm not an expert.
Then I try to present the facts and let people
form their own opinions.

You're welcome to do the same - or not.
Your choice. There's always going to be gaps.
It's a learning process. And I certainly don't
pretend to have all the answers.
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 26 September 2018 7:01:33 PM
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And I certainly don't pretend to have all the answers.
Foxy,
i didn't really ask for an answer, just your opinion on what you think should be done to close that Gap that's always in the News. The supposed Gap between the indigenous & non-indigenous conditions.
Posted by individual, Thursday, 27 September 2018 6:40:19 AM
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"Please take a look at your post to me at the
end of page nine "

Well this is that post in full....

"Yes Foxy, I agree that you can find many historians who have written articles and essays and even books trying to debunk Windschuttle's finding. Almost all of these have a vested interest in doing so.

One such is Robert Manne who wrote the article in your link. Robert Manne who is utterly convinced of the stolen generation story but unable to name even one proven member of that group. (He has resorted to going back into the deep past where records are dim and then claiming that the lack of records proves his point.)

But again we find people saying with great certainty that Windschuttle is wrong and not offering any evidence for the claim.

Did Reynolds falsify his quote? Yes. Did Ryan make up evidence about a massacre? Yes. But those of a certain leaning will just pretend not to notice and then rely on others to tell them its OK to not notice."

So Foxy, please advise what word, phrase, clause or sentence in that post caused you to think that I didn't know Manne's book was a collection of essays from other historians. For that matter what word, phrase, clause or sentence in that post caused you to think that I was even talking about Manne's book?

OTOH you can cut and run. There's an old saying "When you find yourself in a hole, stop digging". It might be apropos here.
Posted by mhaze, Thursday, 27 September 2018 10:16:15 AM
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Indy,

It's simple.

Their voices should be heard.

Accepting the Uluru Statement from the heart would
have been a step in the right direction.

mhaze,

Did you read the link I gave by Manne?
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 27 September 2018 10:27:14 AM
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cont'd ...

mhaze,

The link written by Manne that I cited on page 9
is worth a read and raises questions about Windschuttle's
research.

The subject of our Indigenous history exemplifies the
arguments of those who insist that there is no such thing
as "objective history."

A historian can try to establish that an act took place
on a certain day, but this by historical standards
constitutes only chronology,
the moment that a historian begins to look critically
at motivation, circumstances, context or any other such considerations, the
product becomes unacceptable for one of another
camp of readers.
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 27 September 2018 11:11:32 AM
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Dearest Foxy,

Of course, there is such a thing as 'objective history' - it may be beyond anybody's reach, but it's there. The task is to get as close to it as possible, to develop the most accurate picture of 'what happened', with the least (fewest?) equivocations. Karl Popper wrote that reality exists, but we'll probably never grasp it 100 %. I think, from memory, that Marx and/or Engels said something similar.

I typed up around five thousand pages of primary documents, about two million words. Yes, I realise that that's nothing like what's available - there must be many tens, hundreds, of thousands of pages of primary documents in State archives around Australia, in private journals, diaries, etc. But I do get pissed off with 'historians' who wouldn't know a primary document if it fell on them from a great height (I wish), who wouldn't recognise one if they saw it, even if they have vaguely heard of such things.

They're there. Even you could find them in your State Archives with little trouble: find out where they are (Victorian Archives Centre, 99 Shiel Street, North Melbourne; phone 3 9348 5600), register, check out what they have archived on the computer there, apply for what you want to look at, have a coffee while you wait half an hour for someone to get it off the shelf, and bingo. You don't have to rely on any historians' interpretation alone, even in the unlikely event that they themselves have actually perused primary documents and not, in turn, relied on somebody else's interpretations. Of someone else's interpretations.

Give it a go. It can be quite transformative :)

Love,

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Thursday, 27 September 2018 12:12:56 PM
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Dear Joe,

The beauty of history is that it is written by so many
different people. We get so many different perspectives.
No one has the time or the resources to look at all
dimensions of an event. Not to mention the lenses we view
the events from.

That's why when you ask a scientist, a researcher, a
professor, their answer is - "It depends..."
Because it depends on how you look at that fact.

History, from any angle you look at, will teach a lesson, it
will give you an experience - something for the future,
and hopefully will make you wiser. Yes, it can be
transformative. I learned that while meeting people like
Thomas Keneally, Barry Jones, to name just a few when I
worked at the State Library of Victoria and also catalogued
part of the Oral Indigenous History Collection.
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 27 September 2018 2:03:45 PM
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It'd be a great exercise to get an academic, a business manager, a tradesperson, a farmer, a labourer, a lawyer & a soldier to witnes a set-up situation & get them to write down the events as they see them.
My guess is that there'd be at least three different stories.
Posted by individual, Thursday, 27 September 2018 2:24:25 PM
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"Did you read the link I gave by Manne?"

Yes I did. Indeed I read it back in 2003 when it was first published. At the time I was immersing myself in the entire 'Fabrication' issue.

But what's any of that got to do with you explaining why you thought I was "misinformed" about Manne's book?

I suggested you stop digging the hole you've created but it seems you've decided to instead try to just change the subject. Oh well, I guess that's as close as we get to an admission of error.

"[Manne's essay] is worth a read and raises questions about Windschuttle's research."

And how to answer those questions? Well a start would be to read Windschuttle's side. But that's not your process, is it Foxy? You don't want the questions answered. You merely want to be able to say Windscuttle (or anyone else whose views you want to ignore) has questions unanswered, and thereby pretend that you've researched the issue. You do it all the time.

If you were really interested in answering those questions you might have also found out about "Washout" - the book written to examine the veracity of 'Whitewash'...."Washout is major contribution to the debate over the "History Wars". It is a dissection of the Robert Manne edited book "Whitewash: on Keith Windshuttle's Dissection of Aboriginal History". Dawson shows that the authors of Whitewash have manipulated the evidence and failed to establish their case."

An essay about it is here....

http://quadrant.org.au/magazine/2010/11/keeping-track-of-the-fabrications/

Somehow I doubt it'll have the merest affect upon your desire to dismiss Windschuttle.
Posted by mhaze, Thursday, 27 September 2018 2:28:46 PM
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mhaze,

Windschuttle has been dismissed ages ago.

You are wrong about me. I know who I am.
You don't. Neither do you know the depth
of my knowledge and experience or what
conversations and arguments I have had in
the past -
and with whom. I am familiar with Dawson and
his work.

The following may be of interest to you:

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=3320
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 27 September 2018 3:39:32 PM
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'Windschuttle has been dismissed ages ago.'

by you and the swamp Foxy, not for those interested in the truth and facts.
Posted by runner, Thursday, 27 September 2018 3:42:16 PM
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runner,

Jesus loves you. Everyone else thinks
you're an ... (take your pick).
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 27 September 2018 3:45:45 PM
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runner,

Jesus loves you. Everyone else thinks
you're an ... (take your pick).

thanks Foxy. At least the only One who never lied loves me. Ha! Ha!
Posted by runner, Thursday, 27 September 2018 3:47:52 PM
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runner,

Big hug!
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 27 September 2018 4:18:42 PM
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Dear Foxy,

I hold Windschuttle in very high esteem as a thorough historian, one who goes to the primary sources, not the secondary and tertiary sources only. In his books, when he deals with South Australia, I always learn something I didn't know, and about resources that I wasn't aware of. I have a wary interest in oral history, which usually means 'history without evidence, only someone's say-so'. If it can be backed up by independent material, primary documentation, etc., well and good: oral history, in that case, becomes an indicator of something which needs further examination. But that seems to rarely be the case.

Anyway, this has drifted far from its original thread: the diversion of legitimate concern about child abuse to the fraught feelings of snowflakes, whose, hides are as tough as old boots. The contempt that some of those 'spokespeople' have for the most down-trodden of their own people, the use and misuse that they make of the most vulnerable, is so disgusting that I sometimes feel like migrating, and not wanting to hear the word 'Aboriginal' ever again.

Let's get a few things straight: Indigenous life expectancy is at least ten years less than it is for non-indigenous people. But if you break those figures down, you will find that urban, working people's life expectancy is no shorter than the for non-Indigenous people. For Indigenous people in larger town, it may be ten years shorter. For people in southern 'communities', such as still exist, it may be twenty years shorter. For people in remote 'communities', it is thirty and even forty years shorter. Forty years. Many of them children. So nobody please bullshirt about the romance and glory of 'traditional' life.

Thirty and forty years ? Yes, half of the kids that my wife taught in pre-school forty five years ago are now dead. That's by no means uncommon.

No wonder those mongrels (and I use the word deliberately) want to divert discussion (and shut it down) from actual suffering and death, to hurt feelings. Slime. But it's what clogs up Indigenous action.

Love anyway,

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Thursday, 27 September 2018 4:31:31 PM
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Dear Joe,

Thank You for your understanding and patience with me
I totally acknowledge your expertise on this subject
(and Big Nana's as well). My knowledge after all is
limited compared to the years of study and the time
that you've spent on this.

I apologise unreservedly if I've caused you any upset
or distress. And I shall take everything you say on
board.
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 27 September 2018 4:41:23 PM
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Foxy,
"Windschuttle has been dismissed ages ago."

Yes....by some. Particularly those with an agenda and no respect for the facts.

"You are wrong about me. I know who I am. You don't."

I can only base my evaluation on what I see. And I see someone who forms an opinion and then seeks the data to support it. I see someone who, when confronted with unwanted data, races off to Google to see if she can find something, anything, no matter how fraught, that will allow her to reject the unwanted data. I see someone who makes unsupported assertions which she simply refuses to support with evidence when challenged. I see someone who makes unsupported assertions about others and obfuscates like mad when challenged on those assertions.

Oh, and I see someone who could and should be so much better than that.

"The following may be of interest to you:

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=3320"

And the following might be of interest to you:

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=3292#5099
Posted by mhaze, Thursday, 27 September 2018 5:09:41 PM
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You see right through her, mhaze. She has been indulged for far too long just because she is a woman.
Posted by ttbn, Thursday, 27 September 2018 5:55:58 PM
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mhaze quote "I see someone who makes unsupported assertions which she simply refuses to support with evidence when challenged."

With that statement you have described ttbn.
Posted by Philip S, Thursday, 27 September 2018 6:55:18 PM
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mhaze,

The first link that you gave doesn't work.
Besides, I actually gave it (mine works) on
page 14.

BTW: I don't form an opinion and then seek data to
support it. That goes against my professional training
and ethos. I form an opinion only AFTER I've done my
research. After I've read the data - not before. And I
read from a variety of sources on the topic at hand.

I form my opinions carefully. I also do as much research
as I can to find what professionals and experts have to
say, and only after that do I form an opinion. I also
try to keep an open mind because I never know what I
might learn.

I need to point out that dismissing someone else's opinion
does not make our own any more valid. And for that I do
apologise - regarding Windschuttle's work. Instead what it
does do is - it dismisses our value as a discourse participant.
There's a lesson there for both of us.

Cheers.

Dear Philip S.,

Again - Thank You.
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 27 September 2018 7:14:03 PM
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I am not sure whether this is exactly relevant or not, But I have written something on parenting and upbringing of a child. How parents can give their child a quality life without controlling their life.
Please check
https://pencraftblog.com/raise-your-child-as-a-parent-not-as-a-caretaker/
Posted by PenCraft Blog, Friday, 28 September 2018 4:37:32 AM
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I am not sure whether this is exactly relevant or not, But I have written something on parenting and upbringing of a child. How parents can give their child a quality life without controlling their life.
Please check
http://pencraftblog.com/raise-your-child-as-a-parent-not-as-a-caretaker/
Posted by PenCraft Blog, Friday, 28 September 2018 4:41:26 AM
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PenCraft blog,
This is all very nice & good. How do you propose parents counter the insipid influence onto their children by media, entertainment, gaming, sport etc industries ?
I think one way would be to restrict internet & TV access. The assigned authorities stall in the protection of children so what's required is for parents to form a Nation-wide organisation to do what the authorities fail at. Charge TV programmers & Game developers & Sport promoters with failure to present sensible & moral content.
Posted by individual, Friday, 28 September 2018 6:47:47 AM
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"The first link that you gave doesn't work.
Besides, I actually gave it (mine works) on
page 14."

The first link was simply a quote from your post which is why it doesn't work.

The second link was merely to show you how far back I go on this issue.

"Dear Philip S.,

Again - Thank You."

You do realise that Philip S was comparing you to someone he obviously despises, right? And you're thanking him!
Posted by mhaze, Friday, 28 September 2018 11:11:57 AM
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I certainly am despised by Philip S. Apart from his continual direct harangues, the fact that he has to drag be into a conversation I had no part in indicates what a problem I am to him. And of course Foxy will pounce on anything to discredit me; so vehement is she that she has been getting very 'needy' and desperate of late - looking sadder than ever. Some of the side-bar comments coming out of the main theme can be quite amusing, I find.
Posted by ttbn, Friday, 28 September 2018 11:23:45 AM
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Suck it up, you fellas.

To try vainly to get back to topic: remote 'communities' are going down-hill from zero, with very little genuine employment (except the taking-in-each-others'-washing type of employment), adults with very few skills (especially for today's economy), children getting very little education, major self-inflicted health problems, rampant violence, child neglect and abuse, and no progress being made on any of the Close-The-Gap targets.

Australia 2018 needs very high levels of skills across the board. Rural and remote Aboriginal populations barely have the skills to dig in and fill in holes, or paint rocks. Racists of the left and right, back and white, are not likely to offer any criticisms of all that, except to sink the boot in. But surely, if someone was genuinely concerned, they should make legitimate and strident criticism of the situation ? Even if this comes down to attacking the parasites who live off such fraught populations ? i.e. Black and white bureaucrats ? Surely even some of those parasites, those few within any conscience, should be racking their brains to honestly work out what works and what doesn't, and how to crack the closed circle ?

Or is it impossible ? Are remote 'communities' doomed to grind down to nothing, grinding down their populations and condemning them to boring lives (except for the excitement of vicious fights and beatings) and early deaths ?

Meanwhile, in the cities, where Aboriginal people have experienced far more colonisation, university graduate numbers should hit fifty eight thousand by the end of this year. In the cities, perhaps one in every three Indigenous women is a graduate. Yes, many get sucked into the Indigenous Industry and learn how to be parasites, but many resist and strive to find employment in fields in which they have graduated. At least, that's my faint hope.

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Friday, 28 September 2018 11:50:48 AM
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Loudmouth- It seems you are very concerned about remote communities. Sadly I found found myself drawn into other political concerns due largely to the turbulence of the complex community that we've created over the last 20- 30 years. A progressive society creates more complexity and squanders capacity. Councils should be leaders of community development bringing people together so they can do great things- when you create distrust in the community and make them afraid then there is less communication less development. Probably this is also occurring in the cities. Many Australians of British origin feel that they are under siege and so they are unable to use their strength effectively. They really need a decisive victory against the forces that undermine them so they can focus on the serious issues occurring in our remote and rural communities. I find it tragic when a small business goes to the wall- and the waste in life that it entails
Posted by Canem Malum, Friday, 28 September 2018 1:05:10 PM
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Loudmouth said that there are a lack of university educated people in remote regions -

Well universities have issues with a socially progressive bias that it may not be a good idea for the locals to export to regions. Many of the graduates coming out of the universities are not traditional Australians- exporting these to the regions is likely to have a large negative impact on the communities.

Regional areas are currently fighting a battle between the needs of modern technology and their towns traditions.

As far as greater expertise (which is what universities are supposed to provide) there are a number of ways to address this issue. Universities do have outreach programs that are occasionally held in regional areas.

Often regional development programs are seemingly designed to replace the people in these communities rather than to give them self sufficiency.

As rural areas become more self sufficient it makes them more attractive to interlopers.
Posted by Canem Malum, Friday, 28 September 2018 1:15:50 PM
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mhaze,

You stated on page 15 -

"The following may be of interest to you"

and then gave my link, from page 14. You did not
indicate that it was a "quote". And the link you'd
cited did not work.

Then you gave the second link in exactly the same
fashion and you tell me it was to show me how far
back your interest goes on this issue?

My interest goes back just as far, if not further.
So what?

As I stated to you in my last post - dismissing someone
else's opinion does not make our own more valid. Instead it
dismisses our value as a discourse participant. And I
pointed out that there's a lesson there for both of us.

As for my Thanking Philip S.,? I did so because he directed
your quote that you had assigned to me as being more apt
for ttbn. I did not question Philip's motives in doing so.
You probably shouldn't either. It's would purely be a
supposition on your part. Although probably a good one.
His toxicity is hard to take for anyone. And he's one most
people on this forum avoid dealing with.
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 28 September 2018 1:44:40 PM
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cont'd ...

I need to correct a few errors in my previous post.
Before the feral jumped in and did it for me.

1) The sentence should read - "It" would probably be a good one..."
Not "It's" would ...

2) And "His toxicity..."
Should read - "ttbn's toxicity..."
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 28 September 2018 1:53:29 PM
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“His toxicity is hard to take for anyone. And he's one most people on this forum avoid dealing with”, spews Foxy Motor Mouth. If only SHE was one of the people who would ignore me. But, she always has something to say about anything I post, even when it's nothing to do with her. What she says other people manage to do - avoid dealing with me - Foxy simply cannot do herself. Very odd.
Posted by ttbn, Friday, 28 September 2018 2:44:26 PM
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ttbn,

I have tried to ignore you totally and even when you
attacked my mother (a dementia patient in a nursing home)
I tried not to respond. But you were the one who continued
with your comments about me. After a while I was obligated
to correct the untruths. Yes, it is odd. Even odder that
now you've singled out Belly. Why? He's asked you to drop
the insults - yet you can't. Why?

I think that you get your jollies from insults. This gives
you an excuse to continue to post - especially against people
you see as your enemies.
I'll make another attempt at ignoring you and not reading your
posts and leaving you alone on the condition that you do the
same to me.

I am not in the slightest bit interested in you, what you think,
or have to say. You, to me are a non-entity. And I shall
be more than pleased to ignore you. If you do the same to
me. But I shall respond if you continue with your tirades.
I will not tolerate a bully. Nor should I be expected to.
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 28 September 2018 3:10:34 PM
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Is Foxy Serena williams ? ;-)
Posted by individual, Friday, 28 September 2018 3:57:33 PM
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There you go Foxy, proving what I said. You just cannot help yourself. You must ‘ reign supreme’ as you probably do in your limited social circle. You are pathologically unable to accept that everyone is not going to agree with you.

I'm a bully? Well, as they say, it takes one to know one. You are a perfect example of a bully, and I seem to be the only one who stands up to you honestly. If that makes me a bully I'll wear the tag, and you are not in any position not to tolerate me. Do you really think that your arrogant 'not tolerating a bully' will have any effect on me - someone you regard as being 'toxic’; someone you wrongly accused of 'attacking’ your mother. You're just another poster with no special influence. I'm certainly not going to make any deals with you.

Out of respect for the editor and other posters, I will drop it for the time being. But, I regard you as a very unpleasant woman who gives woman in general an undeserved bad name. I have been married to the same woman for 50 years. I have daughters, granddaughters, and great-granddaughters. They certainly put you in perspective.
Posted by ttbn, Friday, 28 September 2018 3:59:33 PM
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Indy,

No, Foxy does not identify with Serena Williams.

She identifies more with Carlos Ramos - who
did his job well.
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 28 September 2018 4:08:27 PM
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CM,

"As rural areas become more self sufficient it makes them more attractive to interlopers."

I would suggest - Big Nana would know far more than me on this - that, if anything, somehow, remote Indigenous communities are becoming LESS self-sufficient. The two communities that I am most familiar with, both in the south, totalling twenty thousand acres of good land and plenty of water, are currently, between them, running a couple of hundred head of beef cattle. That's it. A kid could look after that. Perhaps a bloke in a wheel-chair could do it.

I can't help the impression that people in 'communities' have, consciously, run down their own economic base; they have deliberately closed down economic activities. They have willingly scrapped all alternatives to welfare. They intend to stay on welfare, and raise their kids to do the same, even as the skills needed in our rapidly-changing economy become more and more sophisticated and take more time to learn. They are destroying their kids' future, and doing it with eyes open, betting on being able to stay on welfare forever.

And the Black-and-white bureaucracies which bot on them, maintain them, and shield them from account, are intent on keeping them in the condition to which they have become accustomed, in order to keep their own jobs. And to do this, they need the Indigenous Narrative, in order to beat white Australia continually over the head with the dreadful misdeeds of their ancestors.

Yeah, maybe migration might do it. But I was born here, I'm Australian, I'm not from anywhere else. So maybe I'm condemned to whinge forever about the incompetence and corruption in Indigenous affairs. You never know, I might get lucky.

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Friday, 28 September 2018 4:11:15 PM
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mhaze Quote "You do realise that Philip S was comparing you to someone he obviously despises, right? And you're thanking him!"

The above quote was in reply to my comment quote "I see someone who makes unsupported assertions which she simply refuses to support with evidence when challenged.

With that statement you have described ttbn."

Notice the words "YOU have described" please show me where the word or synonym of the word compare appears?
Posted by Philip S, Friday, 28 September 2018 4:36:08 PM
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Foxy,"You did not indicate that it was a "quote"."


These things ("") are called quotation marks. The stuff between them are quotes. Sheesh.

Philip,

"please show me where the word or synonym of the word compare appears?"

No you didn't use the word 'compare'...you just said that the description of Foxy also applied to ttbn, which is completely different to comparing </sarc>.
Posted by mhaze, Friday, 28 September 2018 9:04:16 PM
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LM,

"Are remote 'communities' doomed to grind down to nothing,"

In another thread I wrote....

As to welfare, someone, someday has to just say that people who want to live a 'traditional' life in the middle of the never-never is never going to achieve the same health, welfare and educational outcomes as someone living next door to some inner city world-class hospital. Just say it and then go from there ie we can't achieve parity but we'll do what we can, so long as those we are helping put in some effort as well.
Posted by mhaze, Friday, 28 September 2018 9:28:31 PM
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mhaze If that was the case then why did I not include the whole statement.

It would appear the comparison is only in your mind, which could indicate your bias against Foxy.
Posted by Philip S, Friday, 28 September 2018 9:38:05 PM
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ttbn - You can't keep well enough alone, I just noticed your comment above.

Quote "I certainly am despised by Philip S" You appear to have a delusional complex, sorry to disappoint you but my only problem with you is when you make outlandish comments and unsubstantiated comments without proof they are true, when asked for proof you conveniently disappear.

Quote "the fact that he has to drag be into a conversation I had no part in indicates what a problem I am to him." I assume the be should read me. Again you are wrong some of the words mhaze used to describe Foxy were words I used in a comment to you description wise it fitted you perfectly that is why I made it, as soon as I saw mhaze's comment I thought of you.
Posted by Philip S, Saturday, 29 September 2018 12:12:40 AM
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More Interested Own Feelings Than In Preventing Child Abuse
Philip S,
The above line is getting closer & closer to apply to you as well. Give people who care a break instead of this pedantic playing with words. Can't you just express your opinion on the subject in plain words which those who care aren't trapped into reading something else for your obsession with jargon ?
KISS
Posted by individual, Saturday, 29 September 2018 9:12:48 AM
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Philip S

Get over yourself. You are as will as the madwoman.
Posted by ttbn, Saturday, 29 September 2018 10:28:55 AM
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individual,

Philip S, like Foxy, is so totally in love with himself that he is beyond reason. The two will keep mewling on and on, totally oblivious to what is wrong with them. Black is white, for them. There is no cure. They are serial pests who will eventually fizzle out if they are left alone, wailing and ghashing.
Posted by ttbn, Saturday, 29 September 2018 10:40:50 AM
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ttbn Please translate the following quote into English please?

"You are as will as the madwoman" Plain English will be okay.

individual, I knew it would not be long before you stick your nose in to help your BFF.

But like usual your comments do little to further the discussion.
Posted by Philip S, Saturday, 29 September 2018 7:45:14 PM
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individual, I knew it would not be long before you stick your nose in to help your BFF.
Philip S,
Resorting to meaningless dribble does not help anyone. I'm not here to help others in debate, I'm only interested in making statements that could in my opinion help all to become more considerate.
Why do you only criticise ? Why not propose/suggest solutions ? Aren't you interested in the childres' welfare, only in proving that you have such a magnificent grasp of the english language ?
I propose for people to stand back & consider supporting Govt to curb the misuse of authority by it's bureaucrats which results in many young peoples' future being jeopardised. One of these steps would be to support a motion that activist not get paid by taxpayers. Another step would be to ensure that training of teachers is stepped up several notches.
My perception is that most academic background people are merely interfering & not helping at all. These so-called progressives are nothing more than major hurdles for others who want to genuinely help, not just trumpeting about how smart they are. If they were indeed so clever than why haven't they solved these problems by now ? They've had 50 years & still haven't achieved anything. Isn't it time you stopped supporting them ?
I have witnessed so many bureaucrats in remote communities totally disinterested in helping to better conditions. Most of them only sprout about how much more funding they secured. There was not actual improvement on the ground. Travel & associated benefit rorts are simply wiped because every single bureaucrat is constantly on alert to prevent a Domino effect in case one of them were to fall.
Posted by individual, Sunday, 30 September 2018 7:51:37 AM
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individual Quote
"Philip S,
Resorting to meaningless dribble does not help anyone. I'm not here to help others in debate, I'm only interested in making statements that could in my opinion help all to become more considerate."

Can you please explain how the following comments from you could help all to become more considerate.

Individual comments. Just going back around 7 weeks, if you like I can go right back where you have some very considerate ones.

Paul1405,
it looks more like you're living up a tree in some Uni complex & surround yourself with those feel-good lefty types.
I can't help thinking you're just an 18 year old student trying to obtain a BA.

Sometimes, in order to apease morons it is necessary to behave like one.

Hmmh !

PhilipS, have you ever been outside your suburb ?

Being called fat-arsed by an elephant scrotum lookalike must be rather infuriating for Julia.

But like all the other haters
Paul1405,
Aren't you one of the worst haters out there ?

Blessed are the ignorant !

Some people don't appear to realise that sharks don't think like academics.

Is Foxy Serena williams ? ;-)

Yeah, in the standard evading jargon kind of way. You're the perfect bureaucrat.
Posted by Philip S, Sunday, 30 September 2018 11:03:42 AM
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Hi Individual,

Thanks for trying to stay on-topic. Contributions to this thread amply demonstrate that hurt feelings - of snowflakes on both left and right - can occasionally steer us away from the far more important issues, the ghastly issues, afflicting Indigenous 'communities', which clearly the Indigenous Industry either have no solutions to, or - worse - have no intention of ever remediating.

Best wishes,

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Sunday, 30 September 2018 11:22:43 AM
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Philip S,
We're still holding our breath waiting for you to put forward suggestions how to stamp out the abuse.
No need to bail us up on meaningles dribble, we know you're good at that. What we want is solutions.
Posted by individual, Monday, 1 October 2018 7:11:05 AM
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Here's an active activist, perhaps she is working on the problems faced by Indigenous victims.

"GLAMOROUS young Aboriginal woman Leilani Clarke has been convicted of her third police assault after she kneed an officer in the testicles after stealing a chicken curry from a 7-Eleven.

As she did during her last assault, 20-year-old Clarke called police officers “white dogs”.

The latest assault occurred on June 26, just weeks after she was convicted of spitting on a policeman and shoving a paramedic while screaming “---- you white dogs”.*

In a different incident earlier this year Clarke, a land rights activist who has “So proud to be Aboriginal” on her Instagram page, kicked a Queensland police officer she called a “slut”..."
http://www.news.com.au/national/courts-law/female-indigenous-activist-knees-cop-in-testicles-in-her-third-police-assault/news-story/b9f55bf1bf19d0731fc5db6547f5db97

* the system required me to remove the profanity, pick a common 4 letter word that fits.
Posted by Is Mise, Monday, 1 October 2018 7:15:42 PM
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"GLAMOROUS ?
Well, i suppose that's the PC version.
Posted by individual, Monday, 1 October 2018 7:48:14 PM
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individual Go back to school, my original comment is not directed at this thread as you stupidly thought.

I have no desire to participate in the debate that this thread covers.

Quote from you.
"We're still holding our breath waiting for you to put forward suggestions how to stamp out the abuse.
No need to bail us up on meaningles dribble, we know you're good at that. What we want is solutions."

How many times do you have to be told something before it sinks in you just keep dribbling along.

Again just for you my original comment is not directed at this thread.

Even an idiot should understand that when the second person to comment starts the comment with "3rd time question asked maybe now will get an answer."

Go back read it and try to get an education.
Posted by Philip S, Monday, 1 October 2018 9:04:53 PM
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"GLAMOROUS ?
Well, I suppose that's the PC version."

As a poster on another site said,
"I've seen more glamourous Thomas the Tank Engine look-alikes."
Posted by Is Mise, Monday, 1 October 2018 9:26:50 PM
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Go back read it and try to get an education.
Phip S,
I would but I can't afford to go overseas & to attend here I'd only end up like you
Posted by individual, Monday, 1 October 2018 10:05:32 PM
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individual, quote "I would but I can't afford to go overseas & to attend here I'd only end up like you"

Again you defy logic with a stupid reply, going back and reading this thread does not require going overseas, also you being old aged can get free education in Australia so again you are not required to go overseas.

As for ending up like me you do not know where I was educated so again dribble.

Please activate brain before applying fingers to keyboard so as not to put foot in mouth so as to refrain from stupid comments.
Posted by Philip S, Monday, 1 October 2018 10:27:18 PM
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individual Just a reminder of a previous comment by you obviously you do not follow what you preach.

individual Quote
"Resorting to meaningless dribble does not help anyone. I'm not here to help others in debate, I'm only interested in making statements that could in my opinion help all to become more considerate."
Posted by Philip S, Monday, 1 October 2018 10:30:56 PM
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Jesus, snowflakes to the left of us, snowflakes to the right of us ........ is there a chance that any of you kids can pay any attention to the topic ?

Each of you, for Christ's sake, grow a pair. So you don't give a stuff about Indigenous life-chances ?

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Monday, 1 October 2018 11:31:14 PM
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Amen to that, Joe.
Posted by Is Mise, Tuesday, 2 October 2018 9:52:01 AM
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Loudmouth - Bit rich coming from you.

From me to you before - I would have expected better from you, you failed to see it was not about this thread.

It seems I was wrong expectations zero.
Posted by Philip S, Tuesday, 2 October 2018 12:53:21 PM
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Hi Phillip,

"Aboriginal activists have complained to the Australian Human Rights Commission that they feel “offended, insulted, humiliated and intimidated”, on the basis of their race, following a discussion about preventing child abuse in aboriginal communities on Channel Seven's 'Sunrise' program."

Sorry, Phillip, I misinterpreted that opening statement to infer that some Aboriginal activists felt offended, etc., etc., when mention was made of child abuse in Aboriginal 'communities'.

Indigenous child mortality is around five times the non-Indigenous rate - after all, those first years should be amongst the safest in children's lives. I'm confident that the child mortality rate amongst working, urban Indigenous people is about the same as it is for non-Indigenous people, but vastly higher in 'communities' - and probably higher, the more remote a 'community' may be. Accidental death, neglect, violent abuse - they do take their toll, Philip.

But if Aboriginal activists don't want to know, if they have no remedy for such a dire situation, either because they are pig-ignorant or really don't care - then we know what Aboriginal people generally - and children in particular - are up against.

So, whose side are you on, brother ?

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Tuesday, 2 October 2018 3:24:03 PM
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Loudmouth On this subject I have not formed a solid opinion except to say I do believe Aboriginal children are disadvantaged but not by Australia but by there parents and tribal leaders.

Australia has been bending over backwards for years to appease Aboriginies but they are they own worst enemy.
Posted by Philip S, Tuesday, 2 October 2018 6:12:08 PM
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Dear Philip S.,

Is it the lack of infrastructure for our Indigenous people
that adds to the problem? Can we continue to blame them -
or should we take a closer look at the lack of infrastructure?
Just a thought.
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 2 October 2018 6:19:32 PM
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Foxy What do you mean by infrastructure?

If you mean houses BS years ago the Government built lots of brand new houses in the NT for communities most were wrecked within 6 months of being given to Aboriginal families.

With too many the big problem is the bottle, too many alcoholics.
They used to pool there money in dry communities to buy a 4wd etc and go on runs to pick up as much booze as they could bring back.
Posted by Philip S, Tuesday, 2 October 2018 6:51:06 PM
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Aboriginal children are disadvantaged but not by Australia but by there parents and tribal leaders.
Philip S,
I totally agree with you on that. Indifferent bureaucrats too have a hand in that dilemma.
Posted by individual, Wednesday, 3 October 2018 6:32:22 AM
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Hi Phillip,

Yes, that's a very crucial point. So, in my book, Tony Abbott's suggestion of getting kids to school is most certainly a major step in the right direction. But as long as people think that everything will forever come from the government, that work will always be unnecessary, how to persuade parents to make sure their kids go to school ? After all, the parents are usually the very people who are, by their own examples, misguiding their children.

Perhaps providing three meals a day at school, with no penalty set against parents' welfare payments ? AND financial penalties against parents who don't or won't get their kids to school ?

PLUS young-adult educational-rehabilitation programs ? Not the same old, same old - the same programs at very low levels with very little study load which 'students' can enrol in year after year, but step-by-step, non-reversible, programs leading to definite apprentice-type programs, and/or to Year 12 and/or to university. That will be a very long process, five years plus a few more years plus a few more years - and I fear that people won't have the staying power to make it work.

And people won't take up any rigorous educational program if they also stand to lose CDEP payments ('work' for the dole). My wife desperately tried to get a Study Centre going at her birth-community, but nobody wanted to try it if it meant losing CDEP, and having to live on Study Grant alone (not to mention mining and national park royalties). You know, like other people. That devastated her.

So it would most certainly be a long shot. But to avoid 'communities' going down the drain altogether in the next generations, what the hell else can be done ? People are learning, thanks to their parents, to be bludgers, and they don't see much wrong with that. In the 21st century, when skills of very high levels are essential.

That's their choice.

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Wednesday, 3 October 2018 9:21:40 AM
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Dear Philip S.,

We read about the gap between life expectancy, infant
mortality, education and employment outcomes between
our indigenous people and our non-indigenous people.

Commentators
speak about these differences being the result of inadequate
health, housing, educational infrastructure and services.
As well as inadequate roads, water, power, telecommunications,
that also play a crucial part.

Therefore I thought
that possibly by providing remote indigenous communities to have
similar access to infrastructure as non-indigenous communities
of comparable size and location have, might help.

It would certainly be challenging - and success would not be
instant - but surely just blaming indigenous people is not
the only answer - something needs to be done - especially
for the sake of the younger generations. Of course leaders in
the indigenous communities have to come forward and be a part
of this and get involved. But they were knocked back
recently. That's why I did think that the
Uluru Statement from the Heart that was rejected by the
government should have been given a go. An advisory body of
indigenous voices on policies and legislation that affects
the indigenous would have at least given them a voice.
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 3 October 2018 11:03:30 AM
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Der Foxy,

If that's what you meant by 'infrastructure', then it's already there. Fifty-km roads to an 'outstation', ie. one house, 3 BR, with a bore, septic tank, solar-powered electricity and phone box. A million dollars. And nobody home. Not for years. But the lights on, though.

So what do you want ? Sealed roads to every 'outstation', occupied/abandoned or not ? In larger 'communities', half-million-dollar houses every five years ?

And barely a single vegetable garden and/or orchard on any remote 'community' in the country ? Running water - check out 'communities' on Google Maps, satellite version, and notice the sewage ponds a mile out of town - so running water. So water for gardens. But maybe none.

There must be many, many people who hear about some whizz-bang new project and think, 'Oh, yeah,' and assume that it's basically yet another fraud - a photo op, a flight of bureaucrats arriving at 11.00 and leaving at 3.00 in the blaze of trumpets and photo-flashes.

Love,

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Wednesday, 3 October 2018 12:16:41 PM
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Dear Joe,

It is going to take a lot of work and many challenges
to try to solve the problem of our indigenous people.
However, I firmly believe that having their own
representation as an advisory body in Parliament is
a step in the right direction. They need to have a say
on policies that affect them.

Also, we want them to live according to our rules, and they
want to live according to their customs - unfortunately
these two don't mesh easily. And then racism is also
a problem in our towns and cities. There is an indigenous
community in Kempsey NSW where my younger brother lives
and I hear about the racist attitudes there towards the
indigenous people (including my own brothers').
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 3 October 2018 1:24:43 PM
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Dear Foxy,

'Self-determination' means that, to a large extent, the people solve their own problems. Parenting, for instance: what would you expect any government to do about that ?

Yes, people in remote 'communities' are vastly behind the eight-ball when it comes to catching up with the rest of the world - and that's if they wanted to. Yes, they may want to live in their own way, but with standard welfare payments forever and a multitude of government-provided services - such as housing, with AC if possible, Toyota parked out the front. Hardly a traditional life.

The world is ripping past them. Looking at the university experiences, in Australia, one could say that, back in 1950, only a small elite went to uni, to become doctors, lawyers, engineers, dentists and a few other sorts of professionals. The middle class cotton onto university study in the fifties; the working class in the sixties. Urban Indigenous people, from a background of rural life, choices and opportunities, really started on that path from about 1990. People from rural towns have not really taken that path. People in small, southern, 'communities' are missing the boat, although most have shifted into rural towns and the outer suburbs of cities.

So people in remote 'communities' are, if ever, some generations from beginning to grasp the purpose and value of education, even at Primary level. The world isn't stopping to pick them up, it roars on.

People make choices on the basis of how they understand their opportunities, and know about alternative pathways. I fear that, unless some pressure is put on parents - horrors ! - the next generation of children, and the next, and the next, won't get out of their predicament, ever. Very depressing, but that's how it seems to be.

What is disgusting is that the Black and white bureaucracies are protecting the people in those remote 'communities' to keep on as they are. They are the captives of the bureaucracy - just as the bureaucracy is, in a way, their captive: neither can change their life-careers. Apartheid, anyone ?

Love,

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Wednesday, 3 October 2018 2:35:59 PM
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"What is disgusting is that the Black and white bureaucracies are protecting the people in those remote 'communities' to keep on as they are. They are the captives of the bureaucracy - just as the bureaucracy is, in a way, their captive: neither can change their life-careers. Apartheid, anyone ?"

The which ensures that the bureaucrats have a lifetime employment guarantee.
Posted by Is Mise, Wednesday, 3 October 2018 2:58:40 PM
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Dear Joe,

Bloody depressing from what you say.

So what needs to be done then?

Surely somewhere in that mix there must be indigenous
leaders that could lead the way? They can't all be
just a bunch of losers? Or are you saying we should
as a country just leave them to their own devices?
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 3 October 2018 3:30:18 PM
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Foxy Quote "the gap between life expectancy, infant mortality, education and employment outcomes between our indigenous people and our non-indigenous people."

The majority of them want to do things the way they used to do it, infant mortality answered. The elderly people do the doctors job for birth.

Life expectancy easy drugs, alcoholism and chain smokers, = high likelihood you die earlier than others.

Education when they see the way a lot of there parents choose to live and know that really they don't need an education to be alcoholic or a druggy and there is very little short of taking them away from the parents the government can do what can you expect.
They need more successful aboriginals to go back to communities to show the younger ones what is possible.

Employment there are a multitude of programs for education and employment for Aboriginals also there are programs that give them preferential treatment for jobs.
Why work for 35 hours to get a little more money, buy more grog.
Very hard to get someone to work when they have been getting everything they wanted for doing nothing for the past 20 to 40 years and they saw there parent do exactly the same.

But I believe a self inflicted problem is they do not see or can't grasp the fact that a better lifestyle is available to them if they put in the effort.
Too many probably see what they have and are resigned to believe that is how it will always be, too many are also just too damn lazy, why do anything because whitey will give us more.

As for the rest appears Joe answered that appropriately.
Posted by Philip S, Wednesday, 3 October 2018 5:46:08 PM
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Dear Foxy,

Noel Pearson is right that people have to step down from the (financial) pedestal of welfare and start on the road to work (via years of education), with the promise of barely any higher income than lifelong welfare (and royalties) provide.

Phillip spells it all out fairly well, although his suggestion, that "... they need more successful aboriginals to go back to communities to show the younger ones what is possible" has been tried many, many times, without much improvement - and the power structure in 'communities', the power of big frogs in little ponds, ensures that any well-meaning outsiders are pissed off ASAP. Too much of a challenge to local power structures.

People perceive what their best options are, on the basis of information which is understandable, and as they see it, profitable. What they don't understand is ignored. What constitutes too much work is ignored. So those options narrow down very quickly.

So, either people are left as they are, ruining the chances of future generations, OR some courageous government has to impose a mixture of carrots and sticks. Clearly, the first step is to get kids to school regularly, and for at least twelve years. So how to persuade parents of the value of doing that ?

Incentives, like feeding their kids for them, maybe showering them too, giving them clean clothes as well. Threats as well, such as deductions from their welfare payments if they don't send their kids to school regularly, for twelve years.

[TBC]
Posted by Loudmouth, Wednesday, 3 October 2018 10:22:51 PM
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[continued]

Hmmm ....... is this achievable ? Way back in the dreadfully racist nineteenth century, missions would offer to take children into their school, provided it was for the whole week, Monday to Friday: the kids were fed, housed in separate dormitories, and sent off home on Friday afternoon. Parents could go out to work during the week and the family could be united on Friday night. As far as I can tell, this was a perfectly voluntary arrangement (how could it have possibly worked otherwise ?) But of course, it depended on parents being in work, on local farms, fruit blocks, government infrastructure projects, etc. The parents were positive examples their kids. None of these opportunities exist near remote 'communities' these days.

So what to do ? Certainly, people can't 'be left to their own devices' any more than they are now. Of course, no government can forcibly take children away too schools. So the determining factor is parents: what they do is crucial. Do they get off their arses, get their kids to school each day, or not ? Nobody can, or should, do it for them. You and I surely agree on that. So how to motivate the parents ? The million-dollar question.

Love,

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Wednesday, 3 October 2018 10:23:53 PM
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Round up all the trouble makers and put them in the Army- teach them discipline and self reliance then put them back where they came from after 12 months. Put their children in boarding school.
Posted by Canem Malum, Wednesday, 3 October 2018 11:59:35 PM
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Dear Joe and Philip S.,

Thank You both for your insights.

This is all too complicated for me.

More questions than answers. I'm going to have to do
far more research on the topic. It's just too complex
for me at the moment. I've got too much on my plate
right now.

Again, Thank You for taking the time to respond.
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 4 October 2018 10:48:27 AM
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Foxy you won't like this one, just saw it.

It does raise a number of questions.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-10-04/cdp-community-development-program-region-penalties-map/10329118

Indigenous communities slapped with more fines under Government work-for-the-dole scheme, data shows

Disturbing new data reveals the impact Australia's flagship remote employment program is having on Indigenous people across the country, prompting claims it is worsening poverty in communities.

Unemployed people in remote areas must take part in the troubled Community Development Program (CDP) to receive welfare payments and can be docked about $50 per day for missing activities.

Region-by-region penalty statistics show places with higher levels of Indigenous participants were issued with more penalties, prompting claims the $275-million-a-year scheme is "racist".

** The first thing that seems strange is how can you fine someone $50 per day when the dole is not even $50 per day? **
Posted by Philip S, Thursday, 4 October 2018 11:47:02 AM
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Dear Philip S.,

Thank You for the link.

I don't know what's going on there.

It certainly doesn't seem fair.
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 4 October 2018 12:21:02 PM
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Foxy - It appears in some cases the public servants are going after the easy targets that won't react in a certain manner.

They should be going after druggies, drunks etc make them work or take away the money.
Posted by Philip S, Thursday, 4 October 2018 4:16:00 PM
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Phillip & Foxy,

I suppose it depends simply on whether or not people have breached the conditions under which they are paid welfare payments by the taxpayer. It must be difficult to have to rely more on mining and national park royalties when people still have to pay exorbitant rents of $ 20 - $ 50 every single week.

I suppose one alternative might be to scout around for work, even if it's available away from their 'communities'. You know, like other people in rural and remote areas across Australia have had to do for generations.

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Thursday, 4 October 2018 4:36:59 PM
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