Such a discussion must be in two parts, to every one who highlights it is being wasted, stolen, deliberately misused I agree, new laws need to be in place to bring offenders to an international court for all of the above, no matter who they are,Aid however in my view is in the interests of the developed world,not just for humanitarian reasons but the self interest of donor nations,a developed third world can become a trading partner,and while we see about a million refugees now, without aid for the starving nations that number could be in the tens of millions, John Howard used aid to Indonesia to fund schools to educate the young about how wrong faith based teaching of hate is, surely that was aid in our best interests?

Belly,

While Australia, under Howard and other misguided PMs, was pouring aid into Indonesia, that country was building warships etc., and enacting a genocidal policy in West Papua, Australia was in effect subsidising terrorism.

Our total aid budget is relatively small, $3.8 billion 2016/17 from a peak in dollar terms of $5.1 billion 2012/13. As a percentage of national income aid is running at about 0.22%, well down from a peak of 0.50% in the 1960's and early 70's. We have gotten rather stingy with our money over the years. The UN agreed target for foreign aid from countries such as Australia is 0.70%.
Aid from Australia has very much an umbrella effect, stretching from Afghanistan, across South East Asia, and well out into the Pacific. Both the receiver and Australia receive benefit from aid. The receiver gets the humanitarian improvements in the quality of life of its people, and in return we get strategic influence and stability in our region.

The biggest recipient of Australian aid is PNG at $546 million, then Indonesia at $357 million. I am interested in Australia's aid programme, particularly in the Pacific, where I believe we could do a lot more. In Fiji Australian aid is presently at around $58 million and being well spent. The focuses is on the disadvantaged and marginalised particularly the rural poor, women and people living with disabilities, whose poverty levels are very high. Rural housing is often substandard. Children's literacy and numeracy skills are declining, the country really has very limited economic opportunities, while the overall life expectancy of the people is not improving. Foreign aid only accounts for about 2.5% of Fiji's gross income. In my opinion aid in the Pacific region is far to low.

Aid, some will always find it reason to get very upset others me hopefully will want it always for humanity's sake, can we see the depth and breadth of why we have aid? China, right now, as has America Russia and just about every country that can afford it, is buying influence in the Pacific, with its aid, America rebuilt Europe, twice, after both world wars, with aid, both the Colombo plan and the Marshal one, did great things.is it in humanity's best interests to just let mass starvation take place?truly? if we who can afford to do not help how will we handle a future with millions of refugees? aid in my view apart from being the right and only thing to do,,, is in our self interests

Hi Belly, small things we take for granted can make a world of difference. To give you an example, a Highland village in Fiji, yes Fiji has highlands, didn't have running water. Only had unreliable tank water, or water brought down by hand from a spring about 1km further up. With aid, a 3" steel pipe, supplying gravity fed clean water has been laid from up top to the village. That has made a world of difference to about 200 people. At around $4000 its money they would never ever have had to spend.

Now they need a truck.

Now they need a truck.
Paul1405,
yes & then they'll need air conditioning & then power stations followed by football stadiums followed by ..... until their society is as mad as ours. Then, with all that additional weight on their islands, the islands willstart to sink & then the bleating will start in earnest about rising sea levels. And then ............

I have always maintained that foreign aid must be goods & tools made in Australia, not loads of money to a handful. Shovels & wheelbarrows build roads & channels, money only buys a new Mercedes or two.

'Is it in humanity's best interests to just let mass starvation take place?'

Pro's and Con's to everything Belly.
Do you not think our allies the US use starvation as a method of war and to manipulate regime changes?

Who do you think suffers from sanctions?
Does Kim look like he goes hungry?
Who suffers when the US bans export of Persian carpets?

The puppet America is ruled by its Zionist masters, that's why the US can wage economic war against everyone, but BDS, well that's just wrong.

Dear Belly,

Foreign aid has always been a controversial issue.
There's those that argue - it's a "nice" thing to
do. There's those that argue - we should help
"our own" first. Some politicians feel that you
don't win cotes by funding foreign aid - that there's
more electoral wins associated with giving money to
health and education - and so it goes.

If it is electorally unimportant why does it even exist -
in the first place, we might well ask? We've been told
that it is in our strategic interest to give aid. That
it gives us a big amount of leverage over our neighbours
which makes policies like the PNG solution possible.

It's also true in a broader sense, for example - the
funding secular schools in Indonesia prevents the spread
of fundamentalist Islam. Plus it is a helpful thing to
do to try and support the countries around us by combating
poverty.

The idea that we can't afford to spend a fraction of our
wealth improving the lives of the poor - does not make
sense. As a free and democratic society (and a relatively
wealthy one) we have an obligation to be concerned with the
dignity of other human beings. We don't live in a vacuum.
We are inter-dependent on each other in this world.

Foreign aid is the logical outcome of our prosperous and
democratic culture and to threaten foreign aid is to
quietly begin to bring into question the humanism that
underpins that culture.

I'm sure that we all, as Australians, want to be part of a
country that values itself and how it contributes to the
world - not by its ability to reproduce an anachronistic,
isolationist, narrow-minded, smaller, provincial vision of
itself.

Indy,

Showing your ignorance as usual. The truck is mainly required to move surplus market garden produce to market. The day hire of a truck is $160 plus fuel, which is too much. The money is used to buy staples such as rice and chick peas, tea etc for the community.
Glad you mention roads, Chinese money has been provided to smooth out many of the hair pin bends, and reconditioning of the gravel roads. Which still require a 4WD, but are a lot better particularly in wet weather than they used to be. The work has mostly been carried out by the NZ road construction company Hogans using local labour.

If you want to talk about how good for Australia our foreign aid programs are, just look at Malaya. You could ask the families of those diggers killed preventing the communist taker over of Malaya what they think of helping our neighbours.

You could see in Lee Kuan Yew's attitude to Oz just how much influence those lives, & the handouts for years earned in respect or response.

Any aid should be only in Australian manufactured or grown product. As Oz makes stuff all these days, our only offering should be in locally grown food, & not too much of that either. As usual the lefties are generous with other peoples money.

until their society is as mad as ours.
Paul1405,
You conveniently failed to comment on the above line but got sucked in like a milkshake through a straw by the sarcasm.
I don't know what your experiences are but have lived on island communities for many,many years & my experience was that the more modern conveniences are provided free, the more was demanded until such time that the people became so dependent that now they can't do anything anymore themselves. Of course we outsiders who went in to make life supposedly easier for them are now condemned for destroying the cultcha. I imagine Fiji may now be different that the indigenous are becoming the minority.
Ring any bells ?

Armchair critic, Paul, Foxy all good points America is no longer a country to trust it may never be so again, aid is given for many reasons,I can make a case for most of them but humanity is the only reason I need Fiji, Paul a rather grubby ex fellow worker,no mate, went to that country on holiday, he came back with truly bad storys about poverty,we around the union table, not for the first or last time, chucked in a few bob, did the same this morning, buy a bail, at one of our big chains helping other if nothing else is rewarding, knowing you did.AC no right wing redneck here but for at least 50 years America has had only its own interests in mind never ever trust them

Nothing to be said about the subsiding of Indonesian terrorism in West New Guinea?

How much Australian aid flows to the native inhabitants and how much goes to the resettlement of foreigners in that benighted land?

Remember Gough Whitlam and Timor, people who'd been our allies against the Japs got nothing while those that aided the Japs got money; remember the five Australian journalists whose murdered blood was spilled in a spirit of friendship with Australia; Whitlam had blood on his hands.

not straying in to the terrorist stuff, but will remind others today Julie Bishop warned about online comments in other places calling for an end to aid, her point was it is not as much as some think and even with our politics being far apart her other views on this mirror mine. if we must sink to the lowest common denominator for giving aid,, consider if we did not how would we handle refugees maybe in the tens of millions? even with it we will see, without peace and great luck regarding droughts, millions knocking on developed countries doors

Issy, I am in agreement with you on East Timor. The actions of Indonesia, who have been aided and abetted by foreign nationals in West Mew Guinea, is nothing short of reprehensible, Australia should be ashamed of itself with are lack of protest against Indonesian atrocities committed.

Indy, what is your knowledge of the situation of people in Fiji. I think you may have spent some time up a tree somewhere else and then try to extrapolate that experience to a people you know nothing about. If that is so, then you are ignorant, but you may be able to redeem yourself.

Saying; "aid should be only in Australian manufactured or grown product. As Oz makes stuff all these days, our only offering should be in locally grown food, & not too much of that either."

Talking about hand outs, shows a lack of understanding on your part, that is only an emergency thing at best, its not what aid is about. Aid is about improving peoples lives, making things better for the future. So much conservative white man BS from the Usual Suspects on the forum.

Paul1405,
it looks more like you're living up a tree in some Uni complex & surround yourself with those feel-good lefty types.
I can't help thinking you're just an 18 year old student trying to obtain a BA.

My take on foreign aid or any aid for that matter is that I'm fully willing to help people worse off than myself but I draw the line when they're better off than I am for sitting at home on my taxes while I am still working.

Belly

"..not straying in to the terrorist stuff,"

Why not?

Does it not suit your agenda?

For every dollar that Australia gives to Indonesia it frees up a like value in their dosh to be used to terrorise West New Guineans or some other unfortunate minority.

I wonder did they ever finish building their aircraft carrier?

Of course, it'd sit ill with you that the Great Gough was a bloody handed murderer, complicit in the killing of five innocent Australian journos.

you are a difficult person ismise, this is about aid, not terrorism,it is a fact that every Australian government, from the day the Dutch left, has sold out that part of a country never ever part of Indonesia! ok now? can I go back to aid?why introduce totally different subjects?aid is the issue and as even the current government seems to support my view is it only an extreme right that is being heard and seen? why bloke do you mine for some
thing to harass other posters, is that your reason for being here? never won a battle in real life?

Dear Belly,

Opportunities are created for us when others prosper.
We've seen that happen with the recovery of Japan after
WWII and with China after it opened up. That we changed our
attitudes and devoted resources to building our relationships
with both Japan and China has produced good results
for us all.

We have many of our resource companies involved in so many
projects and countries. Many of our agriculture, education, and
water management companies are also involved.

The following link explains further:

http://theconversation.com/why-is=australian-foreign-aid-so-important-18428

There is a school of thought that says we should be lifting our aid in the region to combat Chinese Debt Trap Diplomacy. China is 'colonising’ small countries in the Pacific, according to the Australian Strategic Policy Institute. The Chinese loan money, and when the loan cannot be repaid, they seize a port or other facility as compensation.

“Eventually, where economic activity goes, military power follows”.

Any infrastructure and building that is part of the deal is carried out by Chinese workers. The 'aid’ doesn't extend to providing jobs for locals. This further spreads the Chinese diaspora in the region.

Australia does not make loans that cannot be repaid. China does so knowingly, and probably deliberately.

Although foreign aid sometimes grates with Australians, the aggressive, devious behaviour of China makes it important for our security. China is not a nice country.

terrorise West New Guineans or some other unfortunate minority.
Is Mise,
I think you're pretty badly misinformed. The Air Force is taking villagers twice a week into the major town for free so they can trade their produce. MAF is also providing a very good service with their planes. Unfortunately, some australian based & educated West Papuans are relentless in keeping the pot stirred so peace & harmony have no real chance. The most loathed outfits are australian NGO's.
I recall some papuans killing six indonesian Police Officers in I think it was Waimena but not a whimper from any NGO but when the BRI Mob went after the attackers & got them it was all Indonesian brutality. Some NGO's have even less integrity than the Media.
How do i know ? Well, I spoke with the people who were on their way to West Papua from Australia in three boats full of Free West Papua characters but then they got cold feet.

five innocent Australian journos.
Is Mise,
Innocent ? My understanding is that they were repeatedly warned & asked not to go there as it was literally a war zone.
They simply relied on the belief that by being Australian they had some sort of immunity from being targetted. Unfortunately, as it turned out they were mistaken.

Belly,

You brought up Indonesia:

"John Howard used aid to Indonesia to fund schools to educate the young about how wrong faith based teaching of hate is, surely that was aid in our best interests?"

and that freed up money that helped Indonesia to further terrorise West New Guinea, don't get upset if someone disagrees with you.

Or are you happy to be a potential South Irianese?

Indonesia invaded West New Guinea so if some of the locals object and defend their right to determine their own future in their own country then STIFF.

The fact that Australia gutlessly went along with Indonesia's aggression doesn't make it right.

Indonesia shouldn't get one cent of Australian taxpayers' money.

Indonesia shouldn't get one cent of Australian taxpayers' money.
is Mise,
Agree but neither should the many useless bureaucrats here!

Indy,

I asked you to put up your experience of people of the Pacific as it related to aid programs, government or private it don't matter. You failed to deliver on that, I think because you don't have a clue. I see you as some old bloke in retirement somewhere up a tree in sunny Queensland, who will go to his grave sour on the world, hating his fellow man, and thinking he's been hard done by. BTW I'm 65, again you know nothing.

Belly,

Even though we are both on the same side of the political fence, it is impossible for me to defend Indonesian aggression against the people of East Timor and West New Guinea. Australia's repose from both Labor and the Coalition governments has been weak kneed, and frankly pathetic. Those people subjected to Indonesian brutality deserved much better from Australia, and the rest of the world.

Issy,

As for using aid as a weapon against Governments, that seems only to hurt the people the aid is intended for, and not the decision makers within the government of that particular country. I want Australia's aid program substantially increased in dollar terms. I want it focused on the Islands of the Pacific where I see a great need, I don't want that to be at the expense of others, but as an overall increase.

Foxy,

To put the cat among the pigeons. I want to see Australia's 'War Budget' turned into a real 'Defence Budget' which would free up billions for fair dinkum humanitarian purposes, both at home and abroad.

Paul1405,
I can't recall stating that I have been on Pacific islands however,I know quite a number who live here & who are now portraying themselves as indigenous. Some, whose grandparents came here are actually deemed indigenous as they have intermarried here.
I recall being in the State Archives being shown ledgers of Samoans making application to work on the Qld cane fields. There was one in about 1875 who came here eight times illegally & was deported eight times. Upon the ninth time he was actually granted permission to stay. I have tried to get a copy but the file mysteriously vanished in the 1980's. Other files could not be found due to shortage of staff. I found that many files weren't available to normal people but freely offered to academic historians. I was shown a sketch by a part Samoan & where it was held but when I enquired about getting a coppy I was told no such sketch ever existed. When I told the female on the phone exactly where the sketch was stored I was rudely cut off & dismissed by being told "how would you know ?"
Going back to foreign aid, there are accounts aplenty of aid money not reaching the people it was intended for hence my suggestion of aid should only come in the form of utensiles & food.

Paul my postin no way supports that country cruel behavior in a part of another country, not ever its own, however I am sticking to the subject we use aid to that country, SADLY in our own interests not for humanity's sake,aid is self defense but it must never ever be subject to our moral view about who should and should not live, humanity is best served by helping others always

Well what do you know.

Paul wants to give away more of someone else's money.

What a surprise.

Hassy, showing your sour old greedy conservatism again. Another old bloke who is down on the world. Your attitude is to help no one, too miserable to even help yourself.

Heavens above! The penny has dropped. Of course foreign aid has benefits for the donor. You would have to be pretty naive to thing otherwise. As I said, China is certainly benefiting from aid to dirt poor countries. We should be outbidding them, and obtaining ports for our navy to keep and eye out for the sake of our security. China has no qualms about doing the same thing.

glad to see you have caught up try to be nice, we knew that think that by the way not thing, it however the best of us want aid to stop people dieing not to buy loyalty as said before even this government is warning the anti aid mob are off target

The saying is that foreign aid takes money from the poor people in rich countries and gives it to the rich people in poor countries.

That as much as 95% of aid get syphoned off to "admin costs" or straight to dictators pockets or terrorist groups is a problem, and careful management is necessary.

That Rudd threw aid at despots to get a UN place was despicable.

Well I said we must see aid is spent better and in truth knew some would post about the gaping holes in our aid and world wide aid, we saw and still see warlords with IQs lower than their boot laces thieve aid, we see such as the 50 million we gave to that home of criminal politics Cambodia, to re house one or was it two refugees, in a country that has more slums than true housing, yes aid must be seen to serve those in need not greed, that is some task in countries without any real respect for law and justice, just maybe the UN can fix that in no way can all those holes make me change my view we as humans should help when we can

//The saying is that foreign aid takes money from the poor people in rich countries and gives it to the rich people in poor countries//

Shadow, who said that? They might say that at Liberal Party branch meetings when they are not busy giving each other black eyes.
My old man used to say, "Son, be careful of the opinions of the They people. They, generally get it wrong." Shadow I think you are one of the They people.

Paul,

Firstly I am not gender neutral, and secondly was he really your father?

"Dean Acheson, Present at the Creation: My Years in the State Department (1969).
That's where all the foreign aid (which might be defined as a transfer from poor people in rich countries to rich people in poor countries) went as well. The U.S. government still squanders about $20 billion a year this way, and European governments spend proportionally even more; it's all gone straight down a giant rathole."

Finally, I challenge your claim that a 3" 1km steel pipe was laid for $4000. You could not even buy the pipe for that.

You could not even buy the pipe for that.
Shadow Minister,
It was probably a chinese pipe seeing that Paul1405 had something to do with it. I don't think the aid to Fiji actually goes to Fijians, it's probably divided up between all the Indians businesses there.
Seriously though, all foreign aid has to do with the donor getting something for it other than just more invitations to donate. If our federal Govt were to think practically, they could revive some manufacturing here by making goods for foreign aid. That way Australians & the receivers of the goods would benefit.

Shadow, they didn't have a high priced do nothing consultant like you on the job, so there is a big saving to start with.

Dean Acheson, one of the wise old men who told the warmongers in the White House to stop delivering aid to the Vietnamese people in the form of bombs which America was using to kill innocent men, women and children.

The Usual Suspects on here don't believe in humanitarian aid for the poor in third world countries, according to them, we can't afford it. But they are all for spending billions on the war budget, so we can go and blow the crap out of the same poor unfortunates.

Paul,

So Krudd spending nearly $1bn lining the pockets of dictators and strongmen in the 3rd world in order to buy votes is what you would consider good value for money for our taxpayers?

The reality is that the vast majority of foreign aid is pissed against the wall, and morons like the greens simply don't care as long as they are virtue signalling.

individual,

"If our federal Govt were to think practically, they could revive some manufacturing here by making goods for foreign aid. That way Australians & the receivers of the goods would benefit."

Now, now, that's enough of that; talking sense will never do!!

Shadow, you make a claim, //The reality is that the vast majority of foreign aid is pissed against the wall//

The reality is its one of your unsubstantiated claims. How about some facts to back it up.
You would much rather see big taxpayer handouts to the crooks at the big end of town so they can line their pockets

Paul1405,
I seem to recall some TV news many years ago when Malcolm Fraser was the head of some charity & he flew around in first class visiting the poor. Someone might have more info on this. Do you think this sort of thing has stopped by now or are they still behaving like this ?

Well, Paul, I do remember when an Australian aid worker was appalled at the poor milking qualities of the small goats that fed along the paddy bunds in some Asian country.

He arranged for the Aid Program to give each local farmer some Sarneen (?) milking goats.
This solved the problem of small returns but it meant that the farmers had to give up valuable working time to cut feed for the big goats.

The small goats required very little looking after as they foraged for themselves.

"Paul1405, I seem to recall some TV news many years ago"

"Well, Paul, I do remember when... appalled....qualities of the small goats"

This could be evidence of the onset of dementia among another pair of the forums geriatric brigade.

I think it is time that nursie took away your computer privileges, doped you up with more, a lot more, Haloperidol and put you pair to bed.
Nursie, has a treat for the pair of you in the morning, an extra bowl of porridge each, and Hasbeen is going to recite Bar, Bar, Black Sheep, just for you.

Paul1405,
Ridicule in the absence of meaningful retort is the tool of the insipid & hypocritical.
Can't you answer questions because doing so would expose your agenda ?

A thought has come as a result of the clear need some have to verbally taunt others here, do we have the ability to hold different views but no try to bring others down because they too have views but not like ours? can we sift the bad things that take place in,in this case countrsy we may or may not give aid to, but still look at aid? references to what we see as bad/dreadful/ weird behavior by some, in the countries we help ignore such things take place here too, Paul one thing old Kermit told us and others continue to prove here *it ain't easy being green* but be assured in this matter you are far from alone

Its seems some on here want to pull the plug on Australia's billion dollar aid program, based on some cockeyed story about goats, and a vague recollection of Malcolm Fraser.

If that's it, if that's the best you've got, you deserve the ridicule. Did you blokes enjoy the extra bowel of porridge, and Hasbeen reciting 'Bar, Bar, Black Sheep' this morning?

I know it is a waste of time talking to the likes of Paul, but here is an example $400 million a year aid spending.

In New Guinean a lot of our aid was worse than wasted on buying Auzzy plantation owners out, & giving the plantations to local villagers.

Firstly it was found that only 47% of the aid money for this actually bought plantations, 53% was "absorbed" in the port Moresby bureaucracy.

Secondly the thing was counter productive. The locals never had anything to do with the plantations & didn't want to. The villagers quickly turned a 30 ton a month plantation to a 3 ton a month plantation. They were just not interested in working hard enough to run a plantation.

This was seriously reducing PNGs export of copra, but was worse for the villagers. With such small amounts of copra, the once a month copra boat, that supplied everything villagers needed, including the rice that had become their staple, became the 2 or 3 times a year boat, & perhaps stopped coming at all. The plantation trade store closed.

The radio the planter maintained stopped working, so no more calls for emergency medical help. The air strip the planter had built & maintained became overgrown & unserviceable, so no emergency transport either. The power house ran out of fuel, so no more power tools.

I knew a couple of PNG ministers who were fighting against this crazy destruction of their only export industry, & villagers lives, but those Moresby based bureaucrats loved all that money much of which they could misappropriate at will.

$400 million was a lot of money in 1975, & would have been much more productively used in Oz. Of course with less Foreign aid, we would have needed less bureaucrats wouldn't we Paul. Between us & PNG it probably gave a couple of hundred bureaucrats a nice cushy living.

Paul,

Either you have been living under a rock or are being obtuse. There is more than enough articles on the issue. Once again I prefer not to do research on behalf of others. I would suggest you try google.

For example, Oxfam and other charities spend about 25% of their entire revenue on advertising and lobbying before one cent goes towards administration, logistics, wages etc. They then subcontract most of their aid delivery etc, so generally, the end recipients get 20c in the dollar if they are lucky.

Haasy, living in the past. Dragging something out of Tutankhamun's Tomb, aka 1975, 43 years ago, care to substantiate, not that it has any relevance to today.

Shadow, what does Oxfam have to do with Australia's aid program 2018?

Information provided states that since "Independence" PNG has been & still is receiving $1.2 Million/day from Australia. With that sort of daily present many of us could be "independent" as well.
I don't know about Fiji & the people there but I'd imagine they'd be somewhat more industrious than those in PNG. There are Doctors, Airline Pilots, Business people etc amongst the PNG people in the larger centres but on the whole, the population is still rather tribal in every way.
So, providing foreign aid to PNG in the form of money has proven to be beneficial only for a handful of officials.
Shovel & picks would be a much more sensible aid for rural PNG.

Paul,

An example:

"Appalled by revelations British aid workers from Oxfam’s UK branch systematically engaged prostitutes in Haiti, possibly including some underage, Foreign Minister Julie Bishop has asked Oxfam Australia to suspend funding to overseas operations of its UK counterpart.

Oxfam Australia, which ­receives about $20 million a year from the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, has agreed to the request, which affects about $5.5m of DFAT funds ­directed to projects managed by Oxfam Great Britain, including in South Sudan and for Syrian refugees in Jordan and Lebanon."

Belly,

"John Howard used aid to Indonesia to fund schools to educate the young about how wrong faith based teaching of hate is, surely that was aid in our best interests?"

Tell us how that worked, I'm at a bit of a loss as to how Indonesian school teachers, in a Moslem country, taught how wrong the faith based teaching was.

Bye the way, have you found those black clothed Catholic nuns in Australia yet?

Shadow, good to see Bishop has taken appropriate action in that particular matter. But its hardly significant when discussing Australia's international aid programme as a whole.

IS Mise time you come out from behind the informed commentators mask,
surely you know? Howard did this? and how it worked? why he did it? please consider your confrontational style, aim for at least some understanding before you launch in to others,hard to see much intellect behind your rants old mate

Belly,

Well, tell us how it worked.

From where I sit it does not seem to have worked at all.

fact is it did, as we saw in Bali one and two, and other acts of terrorism it was once very much worse than it now is, in the rush to share what is for me too,,, a hate of that section of the Islamic faith,,, we need to target and protect ourselves from, we, some of us, just refuse to see it is not all from that faith, and too that many more of them die at the hands of the true filth than westerners,not willing to dredge up the full Howard details, he would still say it was money well spent, can we agree after Menzies he was the best Liberal leader?right now look past the need to hate, hear the current leader of that country, as quoted again this day, by Turnbull, in Hansard,* terrorists he said are not believers* they insult that faith, hate and blindness is no answer, telling the vast majority of us we are wrong you are right? research Howards actions, well worth seeing, then tell me all aid is wasted can we agree no faith is without sin, Catholic 1000 children news out of America this day? I propose all faiths pay tax, no faith tell us how to govern, just for a start towards a better world

Islamic fanaticism is absolutely loathed by the average Muslim in Indonesia, just like paedophiles are loathed by average Christians here.

Islamic fanatics are true Muslims and as my Muslim mate said the Australian Government are mad to encourage Muslim migration.

The monsoonal rain has stopped (for a while) so we are about to have another go at holding the outside bit of the Independence Day celebrations (Indian).

Sorry for the late involvement, but in my view foreign aid should only ever be paid from surplus funds, not borrowed funds. End of story.

Australian Government are mad to encourage Muslim migration.
Is Mise,
I'm still waiting for Paul1405's opinion on the intake of more Muslims. Governments around the world could combat the bad elements by just simply only let women migrate & leave the fanatic blokes stew by themselves & make them see the folly of their indoctrination. Talking about indoctrination, it is somewhat rich for us to point the finger at Muslims when we have indoctrination on a similar scale amongst the Leftists here. How can sense ever get the upper hand ?
When agents control the intake instead of Government the you know ther is a problem. Agents want money & they don't care who pays it. The decent people wanting to migrate haven't got a chance with the kind of Dollars involved.

Hi Issy,

You are right, my Turkish friends have said to me, they have greater fear from terrorists back home, and what can happen to their family there, than what goes on in Australia, where they feel very safe.

Yesterday marked a good day for Australia, I was watching ABC news trying to get the energy to get out in the garden, Parlement came on Shorten supported by Turnbull, even one nation, spoke for our country, then our leaders took one another's hands across the table, Fraser Anning got 19 VOTES was elected to one nation, like so many of late, he betrayed those who voted to install him in the chook pen we call Senate, by joining yet another party, yesterday we had a reminder that so few votes can, 9in that chook shed, empower such a lunatics, but too that we are one in the view racism is not welcome here,again the view that all Muslim are in any way a threat is blind and stupid

Every thread here that even glimpse,s at race or faith is jumped on by anti migration anti faith anti deep thought and yes a biased hate often shows up, once, post ww2 as migrants arrived we, not all that cultured or understanding, often slammed the door in their face, bigotry does that, today, just as is the case in America, another country that apart from its first nation is built on migration, the sons and daughters of migrants take a bitter stand against ? today's new arrivals,AID not long ago we applauded bands who held concerts to get cash to save children's lives, if we, every one of us, held such a child in our arms and watched it die, even a Muslim child, the very best of us would cry, a few, who knows? caring for others is no crime, not wast not wrong

Belly,

"...the view that all Muslim are in any way a threat is blind and stupid"

All Muslims follow the Koran, therefore all Muslems are potential troublemakers.

Paul,

The business model used by Oxfam is pretty much reflected in every aid "provider" so unless the aid spend is extremely carefully monitored it simply disappears down a rathole.

As for accepting refugees, while many refugees deserve shelter, Australia deserves refugees that won't be a problem later.

Shadow Minister my opening post demanded far better outcomes from todays lost aid, in fact like even our own charities here at home you just can not trust those holding power over it, reform how aid is used and by who, but that is not a case for cutting aid, I truly FEAR a reader from overseas dropping in to read our thoughts may well go away thinking this country thinks as we say we do here, hope not,because some of us look Trump like.
to even think we should withdraw from international aid is in my view saying we are not quite human my country first if adopted by the west, would kill millions

This reminds me when about ten years ago in an indigenous community, some kids came to my door asking for a donation so their teacher could take them for a skiing holday to NZ.
Mind you, most that class's parents worked in the public service on pay double to mine.
Anyhow, i asked the kids how much people donated on average & was told 5 or 10 Dollars.
I said "if you mow my lawn I give you 50 Dollars."
They just looked at each other & left without saying anything.

//you, most that class's parents worked in the public service on pay double to mine.//

Indy,how often did you check pay packets, fortnightly, monthly?

Gee so those children of our first nation are foreigners indy?maybe we here are just a mens shed for rather grumpy old men? aid is a tool humanity uses to help those who need it, unless we talk of this governments 50 million gift to Cambodia to house one or was it two refugees, we seem not to want to see it but humanity is one species and wanting to help is still a basic for those of us who can

Indy,how often did you check pay packets, fortnightly, monthly?
Paul1405,
The pay staff let it slip quite regularly how much the useless bureaucrats were earning plus their allowances. I'm sure you know as you sound like you're one of them, what sort of Dollars come fluttering through the office windows of Govt & LG bureaucrats.
Paul, I'll take this opportunity to inform you that from now on I will not enter into any more discussion with you until such time you display some integrity & responsibility as should be the norm for a resident of this country. If all you have is opportunistic queries but fail considerably in answering questions, then you're not only wasting your time but mine as well.

Gee so those children of our first nation are foreigners indy?
Belly,
if you consider the children of Samoans, Loyalty islanders, New Guineans, Maoris mixed with indigenous then you have a valid query.

Belly,
I forgot to mention Malay, Indonesian, Chinese , Japanese as well as those left behind by white public servants.

indy whatever you say bloke, but it is my view humanity is one divided only by faith and culture because of the place they grew up wonder if you dislike Paul so much because he is a green or a KIWI? as long as he never mentions rugby union he is ok by me, AID wanted us to not just say why we need it, my view but how we can fix it, right now faith in charities quite rightly too, is at an all time low and aid is near the same, feeling on firm ground with my view as even this government, clearly in its last term, supports my point of view

Belly,
I don't dislike Paul because of being Green & Kiwi :-) ( i didn't even know that).
I don't dislike him at all for what it's worth. I simply don't want to waste any more time with his posts because he never comes back with anything of substance only opportunistic quibble.

As for your 'whatever you say bloke" I mentioned this to enlighten you lot on how every other race/nationality is accepted as indigenous as long as they're not caucasion & therefore get treated as indigenous even though for example the father is of japanese or Malay etc. parents & the mother is white, the child is automatically given indigenous status. Free schooling & free a lot of benefits are standard inclusions. When a school does free excursions for an indigenous class & the only white kid has to pay than that to my mind is not moral. it is that gap that needs to be bridged.

Individual I thankfully do not feel oppressed for being white, of convict stock and a lefty Labor beast, hope with every thought we are better than what most say about this subject, once America, much like communist Cuba, sent its youth out to be of help, yes not safe any more but it was aid in its purest form, post Trump, there will be a post Trump, it will take time but America may again see the benefit in increasing aid not cutting it, if I am wrong, if we should shut the door, block our ears and try not to hear the cries of people dying we may as well let evolution replace us with something more worthwhile

Belly,
I just hope that everyone gets the opportunity to experience not only their own shortcomings but also gets to see the fruits of the Left because nothing else will make people wake up.

EARNESTLY I need to tell you your misuse of the word left is both Trump like and inventive,Labor is not true left, it in fact has a faction, my faction, that holds both tightly and unfairly to the steering wheel, it was formed to take the party back from the true left in the 1950,s a task it did not truly get done until the 1970,s then Hawk finished that job, TRUMP is a blimp, even on American politics, he has dirtied the word left, he has made those who tell the truth subject to that insult fake news ,a deliberate lie,even he, slug that he is, uses aid, not for humanity's sake but to force compliance from those he giftes if we are both alive in five years we can judge if the very right or those miss named left got it right

he has dirtied the word left
Belly,
Wrong, wrong & wrong again. The Left dirtied itself because their dirty tactics to lay dirt on him are back-firing.

Hi Belly,

I am Aussie, born and bread in central western NSW, my wife is Kiwi. Tonight's the night for our Wanterbes, lets hope.
Indy's claim that if you are "foreign indigenous" like Maori you magically are treated as Aussie indigenous is untrue. Two of my Kiwi (Maori) nieces just had babies recently in Sydney. Their government entitlements are exactly the same as the rest of us. On the forms where it asks "Are you Aboriginal or Torres Straight Islander, they answer NO.

Indy pretends to know. Why would a PS tell him someone else's pay packet, when its a sackable offence under privacy laws to do so. Not only did this PS tell him the pay of one, he told him the pay of the whole bloody lot. The bloke makes it up to suit his mantra.

BTW Pays are done through the pay department in the big smoke, into your bank account, so no local PS would have a clue what others are earning, unless they tell them. In most job classifications there are 3 or 4 grades, depending on qualifications and experience. I asked my son-in-law about that, and he is on the max for his job, as he has long service, about 20 years, and has all the qualifications. He cant go higher unless he changes jobs, or they change his job description.

Individual it is no surprise to me Trump has his supporters in these posters, however no doubt exists in my mind he,or who ever is pulling his strings, is a conspiracy within a conspiracy,he is no savior of the right rather the opposite as we will see after he is removed, that will be at the hands of the Republicans not voters, aid will always be used just as much for self interest as for charitable reasons, a day will come when refugees from war or famine will be in great numbers, that day will bring about a whole new look at aid, Paul got that, sorry I miss spoke

Belly,

The problem is that charities have become big business especially since these businesses are "doing good" and international, they are largely free of scrutiny which breeds corruption and waste. With all $bns sloshing around it is inevitable that someone would dip their noses into the trough.

The trick is to find small charities with few overheads and give them some assistance.

he is no savior of the right
Belly,
Again you're wrong. The Right doesn't need a saviour yet, the Left does ! The left is now so far out of touch with morals & integrity that only an implosion can sort the shamozzle. Sadly, the Right appears to be heading towards the same track to appease the fence sitters.

SM no defence here what you say is true this days press tells us even the buy a bale funded at least in part by shoppers at a big chain store, me for one,see massive amounts spent on other than farmers in need, from post one I called for reform in both aid and charities, indy, we differ one of us is wrong,happy to stand by my view

White off topic the Trump thing needs addressing Trump, after the emergence of the tea party right, had to come, America by its very system of electing leaders was always going to make its leader based on miss information, a stubborn belief America first could exist in world trade and the country could both isolate its self and thrive,it will be Republicans who, seeing their base under threat of being destroyed, bring down Trump, back on topic Trump, as much or more than any past leader, uses aid for his, and what he see,s as his country's benefit

Final words but will remain true aid is first an act of human kindness, right now few would find the aid we Aussies are giving to our drought stricken farmers as wrong, yet it is aid,we revel in defining aid wasteful, only if we do not like those getting it, it is my view humanity is better than that

after the emergence of the tea party right,
Belly,
And now we have the Latte Parties maggotting off the tea party's efforts.

Individual nice morning here, two days without frost! unheard of this winter yet another worst on record for this area, the smell of burning Conservative flesh in the air, 6 percentage points down, and a challenge likely, soon, midterms, the tea party right, its love child the lost Trump very wrong, very right will be burning too, See the far right, fueled by miss information and fake claims of fake news is very near its day of reckoning, mate, you and I can stand on our mole hills and shout as much as we like to defame each others view/side but in the end truth will out, the truth is the no longer United States of America is waking from it near death experience

Belly,
Who is Miss information, never heard of her. I am with you in criticising the Coalition but I include Labor because, in actual fact they planted the political rot in Australia & the Greens are heavily fertilising it. It really does not matter how much people deny Labor's hand in the degredation of australian society. There's no getting around it, they are the catalyst.
LNP aren't doing anything to curb it.

Individual it will surprise you but yes Labor planted the greens, BUT it was not a deliberate act, see the Franklin River, supported by most Australians was worthwhile conservation, Hawke gifted it to us all, giving wings to what at first looked like our blood brother,it turned out not to be even close to that, as Hawky dragged our industrial relations in to the rightful direction, SOME in the ALP, much like the rights faction in the LNP, became refugees, demanding a Labor/Liberal party that could never be, and an Australia that never ever wanted what they want,not only refugees from their parties they became refugees from reality, todays Canberra chase the greasy hog contest in the Liberals, highlights both groups dream dreams most of us call nightmares, and in the end both groups destroy not aid the side, the only side, that can get even near to what they wish for

"The Indonesian Navy (Tentara Nasional Indonesia – Angkatan Laut) has commissioned its first attack submarine in over three decades this week.

The first out of three ordered Type 209/1400 Chang Bogo-class (a license-built variant of the German Type 209 sub) diesel-electric attack submarine was handed over by South Korean defense contractor Daewoo Shipbuilding and Marine Engineering (DSME) on August 2."

Subsidized by Australian Foreign Aid.

Of course Indonesia needs our aid, otherwise how could they afford their defence budget?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0rG0_vus_8

Indonesian Defence Budget $6,900,000,000 (US)

Now there's lot of John Howard schools!!

Maybe we should ask Indonesia for some drought relief aid.

Just maybe in our aid to that country we are paying the age old protect money? in any case aid has many purposes and many ways it is delivered, finding it fun that the right are undermining Howard here bet you would like him back again right now

Issy, maybe the Indo's spend that much on their defence budget, because they see this great big country to their south spending $35 billion on their war budget.
p/s How do we stop those Kiwi's spending so much on war?

Belly,

I'm hoping that I live long enough to urinate on Howard's grave.

Paul,

That's no reason to subsidise them, there are plenty of small countries that could use a hand, File being one of them.

Issy, Isssy, Issssy!

Take that back about Little Johnny, he was not my favorite PM, as you know, but he did the right thing about those things which we are not going to mention on this thread. You know those things, a length of pipe with a chunk of wood at the end, and go 'pop' when you pull the trigger. If you're still not clear on what I'm not mentioning they rhyme with bun, dun, fun, jun, tun, run, mun, nun, pun and sun. If you are still not clear I can't help you any more.

I agree about the Indo's, stop spending money on war. I was being facetious as usual.

Sometimes, in order to apease morons it is necessary to behave like one.

I can make a case against this government without raising a sweet,but the they are all the same mob, do it without thinking, as do the they are all in it for what they can get out of it tribe. it is not easy, never was never will be, trying to run a government knowing at the very start you will never please everyone, that you will be rejected even by your own base,see Turnbull right now, and knowing you may never ever get a chance to tell voters just why both sides of politics support aid, even who gets it, and when,understanding and knowledge of both the need for aid and its benefits will never ever be embraced by the we know different mob,

Paul like you Howard was not on my wish list but until his infamous war against workers he could still be PM he beat himself and right now the subject of Liberal leadership is headlines again a truth few will wish to see exists, not one of the would be replacements for Turnbull is near a Howard, one maybe more exist right now, but until both sides give much more consideration in to bringing the other sides voters to them, Howard Rudd Hawke Whitlam like, we will see division, whoever wins he/she will continue using aid if only we could take ten percent of this worlds arms costs and use it for aid we could change this world

Paul,

The only thing that might deter me would be the length of the queue.

Australia gives aid to Mozambique, now there is a laugh!!

Mozambique is an oil rich country that starves its own people and is one of the most corrupt countries in the World.

I wonder which corrupt politician/group get the most out of our aid?

Makes my happy to know just how much removed from reality some are remember ismise both sides give aid and often for no other reason than to buy influence ask China and Russia, America, even the Orange monster, Trump,I refuse to believe if you or any poster here had a starving child put in their arms and watched it die you too would not want to stop that

Belly,

Of course we would want to give it aid, but that's the whole point, the children are still starving in countries to which we give aid and people are being murdered in countries to which we give aid.
Mozambique is a prime example, murder is endemic, particularly over oil and the rich there get richer and the por get poorer.

We also give aid to Mexico, a country that is awash with crime and couldn't give a stuff about its poor and ailing and our aid makes not a jot of difference..

Issy, in dollars how much aid did Australia give to Mozambique last financial year?

As a point of interest, Foreign Aid as a percentage of GNP reached an all time low under Howard and was high under Menzies but reached an all time high under Holt, Gorton etc. and Whitlam .
Its at a low point at the moment but the Abbott/ Turnbull era is not over yet.

Issy, how about that aid for Mozambique, how much was it. Are you chasing it up?

Paul,

Haven't got a clue, actually I meant to post Nigeria not Mozambique, and the amount of aid that we give any of these shonky regimes is immaterial; it's the fact that we help to prop them up that matters.

Is Mise different subject, yes the west uses aid to prop up filthy dictators, even in Iraq still in Afghanistan, once Libia, the Shar of Iran, Belgium Congo, we can go back to Roman times and find it even then,reform aid but never remove it

Issy "Haven't got a clue" I'll agree with that, its gone from Mozambique to Nigeria.
So the figure could be ZERO, since you haven't got a clue.

Just chase up Aussie aid to Nigeria. $___,___,___ just fill in the missing bit please.

You do know the NRA gives heaps of dollars to their Aussie mates at the SSAA.

Issy, is this you checking on foreign aid to Korea?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2YRMixW9u8