Yes welded Labor voter here, once my party, even today for far too many, would tuck its head in the sand and refuse to talk about such as this.
That blind view FAILS to understand every one else knows it was a mistake/Blunder.
As we head ever nearer to an election Labor will and must win Bill needs to understand it will not be my mates the true believers who return us to office, Bill it will be as it was for Gough, Hawk, Rudd, and Paul K the middle we bring with us.
Every word you utter Bill is not to a hungry media, or your team, it is to the world who are always watching.
The Bill I know needs to be seen *every day* *every time he speaks* if that can be the result of what was a blunder this country soon, will have a fine Prime Minister if not?

Hi Belly,

In politics it has always been good advice to be pragmatic rather than dogmatic, exercising the art of the possible. That is not to say a politician should totally compromise their core values and principles, or ignore party policy. Nothing of that nature has been the case in Shortens "tax back down". Shorten made a captains call over the issue and it was politically the wrong call. To his credit, and possibly after a bit of stick from some of his colleagues, he admitted his mistake.
There is plenty of winning material on the issue of tax that Labor can hammer to discredit the Coalition. Starting with the fact the Coalition is the firm friend of the nasty ones, the big banks. In fact so friendly they want to give them undeserved billion dollar tax handouts. All of course at the expense of the poor battlers, the voters, who see themselves as doing it tough, but get nothing.

Paul quite true every word, I have contributed to this subject in another thread,make no mistake I am Labor to the boot straps, but its harshest critic when things like this take place.
Bill was so brilliant I saw our next great leader in him,he must re convince me that is still true, he took part in the knifing of Rudd, then Gillard, then said hang on! got all that wrong by re installing Rudd! my dream even demand, is Labor stop thinking it can forever be just a workers party, and win elections, we have great policies, this backflip showed us Bill needs to listen more.
A future Labor leader, as was the case in the past, will bring great reform that both sides adopt maybe it is the one that will take office next year

Dear Belly,

When Labor won under Keating he joyously proclaimed that it was a victory for the true believers. It made me sad since I voted for Labor because I preferred them to their opposition. I think that should be the reason anybody votes for a party. Leave belief to religion - not to politics.

The 'How to Vote' cards are insulting. If anyone needs someone to tell them how to vote they shouldn't be voting.

Dear Belly,

Bill Shorten has gone up in my estimation. He has shown
that he can not only lead - but he listens as well.
An important quality for a Prime Minister to have.

This thread should have been called 'enough rope', because you give any idiot enough rope and they will hang themselves. Yet another 'own goal', you've gotta love it.

Next batter please.

BTW, can someone please give Malcom more rope lol.

Foxy while I understand your view my party has been my life, I know it a little deeper than the casual observer and my age states loud and clear I lived in the time of 23 years in opposition, too in the great mans 1972 till 1975 reign, that time saw a union controlled party that self defeated time after time, some did far more damage, while on the big mans front bench, to the party and its followers than the very rabbid very dirty press barons,Bill got it wrong, his massive ego, did not let him say so, he believe me, got his bottom smacked, he is unlikely to do such a thing again,Foxy you may not be aware, but rank and file did not elect Bill, we voted for Albo, caucus gifted Bill and his faction, my faction, the leadership, true believers is a term to describe such as me, not to offend any one, rest, the election will be very dirty, Labor will win, and just maybe the truly Brilliant Bill Shorten I knew is back in the saddle, honesty is far better than sweeping things under the carpet always

Dear Belly,

I trust your judgement and your knowledge of the Party
and the people in it. If you say that Bill Shorten's a good
bloke. I believe you. Your say so is enough for me.

Dear Rehctub,

Malcolm Turnbull doesn't need a rope. His colleagues
within the Party will be more than happy to supply
their own.

Belly,

"A future Labor leader, as was the case in the past, will bring great reform that both sides adopt maybe it is the one that will take office next year"
and it won't be Bill!

I come from a long line of Labor people.
My paternal grandfather was a founding member and he was expelled as he followed Jack Lang.
My father was a member and he was expelled as he followed his father and Jack Lang.
I was recruited in a branch stacking exercise and later resigned when Paul Keating cheated the taxpayers out of $10,000+.
My youngest son is an idealistic member, but will I'm sure wake up in time.

Hi there Issy, as we have discussed before my old man was a 'Langite' also, knew Lang well, he left the ALP over the Lang split, only to rejoin later. I believe Jack Lang was Australia's finest Politician never to be PM. What is not known by many, those that say Lang was a communist, or some such nonsense, Lang was a Socialist, but a vehement anti communists, he was very much right of center in Labour politics in those days, a man of his times.

Different times, different rhymes.

Just imagine if Turnbull and Shorten, or any modern day politician, had to go up against Jack Lang. They wouldn't know what hit em'.

Is mise Paul, I am both a true believer and the thorn in the shoe of those who control my party,see my faction the center unity was formed to stall the very left always making us unelectable, and has some times become the problem,could go on forever about the rats/filth in our ranks, and the shear stupidity of the solidarity mob, we CAN NEVER hide our sins from Mr and Mrs Australia, our current first preference is 33 percent! we once cried when it was 43 percent! a lesson must be learned! yes our two party prefered is 52 percent, and yes again this government, its TWO PARTY first preference is just as bad, still those two parties and their lap dog one nation combined can not beat us,we have work to do, reform or die, enough voters dislike both sides to form a third force, and without change it will be so one day, however our last true great , we had good ones, was the big man,his cabinet was not so great, our team is ready for that next great, do not look for todays great grand children of the squatters that bought about the birth of Labor and the union movement, to change for the good of other than the already well off

Belly, with all due respect this is part of the reason the country is in such a mess, because voters like yourself vote for a party, not your local member who offers the best hope for your seat.

Voters have to get the message that to make your vote work for you, you should vote for the member, not the party and, if the member just happens to be in your preferred party, then that's a bonus.

Point in case is the upcoming Longman bi-election. It is no secrete that I am a Libs supporter, however my vote will be going to Suzan Lamb, the labor candidate because I see the effort this lady puts in to her electorate.

You see too many vote for the party candidate that is in line with the person they want to lead the country, even if they are not the best for the job. I just wish more people would vote for the person, not the party. But hey, your position is very common among unionists. My father was a galvanised labor voter and my mother still is and would never even consider changing. Thank god I broke the mould.

In fact, I voted lnp last election simply because I expected Turnbul would be immediately dumped, so to me my vote was wasted as I would have preferred to cast an invalid vote than to vote for Turnbul.

Foxy, whilst I don't get into inner party workings, I think the lnp has two sides, the true libs with the Tony Abbotts and Peter Duttons and the liberal wets with Malcom and his cronies.

As long as Turnbul remains in charge the country, not just the party will flounder.

I would have said Julie Bishop a few years back, but she has shown her true arrogance towards her people and in my view is dead in the water as well.

While I would like to see the next federal election won, sadly it is more likely to be lost again, meaning we slip further down the slippery slope. The race to the bottom continues.

Butch, that is a fair comment; "I just wish more people would vote for the person, not the party." If the swing is on, no matter how good a local member has been, if their seat is in the marginal range they are most unlikely to survive.

Both the Labor and Liberal parties are extremely factionalized. I have met young socially progressive Liberals who have more in common with most Greens, than they do with the conservatives within their own party. Similarly with Labor, where old rusted on's tend to be very conservative in many aspects.
The broad based appeal of a political party is only possible if it is willing to accommodate people of various opinions and ideas. However it is a double edged sward, while being accommodating it can also be divisive, open disunity is death. Labor has suffered disunity over the years, but seems to be going through a quite period on that front at the moment. Its the Liberals tern to suffer disunity, with the conservative faction openly hostile towards the social progressives.

rechtub no! in my view that way leads to a hell on earth, look even briefly at our senate look and see the reason I want it removed, at best, any governing party can only please us some times,the two mains are trying to? well not sure what yours is doing but in leaving its true Liberalism behind to pander to a right that is clearly a minority it sheds votes, BUT if every seat had a independent? good lawd the dealing would be horrific, our best plan is to please as many as you can and only our in the end two party system can deliver
We are about to change government, for no other reason than people are not impressed as I once was, with Turnbull, or his controlling faction the right, just a bit too far right of both reality and his party's base,propaganda will be seen as never before, Trump like fake news false claims, in the end the change will still come, if only we had no senate, no means of the minority blackmailing you and me, the majority, but they do, it is that senate

As the thread fades away we including me are not as interested in it my parting shot has to be my pick for leader of this government Tony Abbott, it is my view he not Turnbull, should face Shorten in the election, but then again my interests are in the Labor camp.