Have been thinking about this for some time Individual by posting in an unrelated thread has reminded me, first is it truly being recycled? current NSW bottle return seems not to be, we pay 15 cents ten is returned 5 is a tax, but only in very few places can you return the 2 liter bottle? so pay more get nothing back?from this week it will cost me 15 cents for single use bags at my major shop brand, but for health and cleanness concerns I will never reuse them,why not the brown paper bags of my youth?

Dear Belly,

I'm not sure why they got rid of the brown paper bags.
Did they break? There must be a better solution to
what's currently on offer. Home delivery perhaps
if you buy enough?

cont'd ...

Dear Belly,

It's just occurred to me that Supermarkets have stopped
issuing plastic carry-bags on the assumption that it's
going to save the environment. Most people use those
carry-bags as bin-liners which are then removed with the
trash. Now people have to buy the bin-liners and the same
amount of plastic will still go into the trash. But the
Supermarkets will be selling the bin-liners and making money.

So this doesn't really solve what it's meant to. Paper bags
would be a better solution for the environment.

Foxy those paper bags used here and in America often needed two one inside the other to be safe with wet items, a recent ABC documentary highlighted NSW recycled? rubbish being transported over night, in B double trucks, and buried in land fill out side Ipswich in QLD, to avoid a NSW tax,China no longer wants our plastic, is it, at the end of the chain, being recycled or buried? a government part funded recycle plant here put many tonns of crushed glass, in road base, [cheaper than the gravel] and only after a child ate some did it stop,next they say we must take a container for salads and such? will that be healthy if we have an out break of say hepatitis?

Dear Belly,

Paper bags in land-fill decompose quite well (after all
they're made from timber). Some plastic bags decompose
as well. However they're not as strong as the Supermarket
bags. And if containers of any form are gotten rid of,
the take-away food industry will shut-down. It is time
that re-cycling is undertaken within Australia and not
shipped to China. That would create extra jobs.

Firstly, paper bags require trees. They are also very expensive and given the uproar from customers about the 15 cent bag, I doubt they would pay 50 cents for a paper bag.

Interestingly, there is also a ban on plastic straws, however research suggests that the majority of plastic straws found on Oz beaches are from Asia. Go figure.

For me it's actually a win, because unlike the 3 cent bag I was giving away, I will now be selling the 15 cent bag I pay 7 cents for.

If I pay 7 cents for a reusable bag, you can be the majors would pay half of that if not less. Even if they pay 5 cents, they will be making 10 cents per bag profit, and that's about a 200% mark up. It is especially interesting when you consider what goes into the bag has a mark up of less than 10% on average. Food for thought! Sorry for the pun.

of cause the solution is to BYO bag, but hey, that places the responsibility onto the user and they don't like that do they.

As the old saying goes, out of sight-out of mind. People living in the more crowded areas are shielded from seeing most of the rubbish that is caused by them because of the efficient garbage removal. In more remote areas where garbage removal is less organised, more rubbish is left lying around. It becomes kind of second nature for people.
Supermarket packaging, white goods in fact just about any packaging now is plastic. Postal envelopes flying all over the country side are almost an accepted part of the scenery.
Councils really aren't taking rubbish all that seriously but they should. In our little town in FNQ we have no glass bins, just a couple of so-so half-hearted Plastic bottles only bins. To take just one shopping bag of rubbish to the dump costs $14.

Doubt a single contributor is not aware we need alternatives individual, and just how bad things are,but look at what is proposed, in fact started from Sunday, like the other new chain has done for some time, we will pay 15 cents for what we are told are reusable plastic bags. many never get reused, and many end up in land fill, as all will in time, first what takes place at the last step in recycling? is some most or just a little in fact buried in land fill?things like kitchen liquid could be sold in a reusable, deposit paid, container,how do we carry our fried rice or salads home? will every returned container be clean? is it safe for workers and customers? straws can be the wax paper ones they once had been,even bared and the lid on drinks made with those fitted mouth pieces, who knows what we can do if we try

Belly,
We've had this system in place for about three months now & you'd be surprised how many shoppers are now bringing their own shopping bags. I myself had to buy about five 15Cent plastic bags because of not being used to the new system but now it's almost second nature.
Many keep the reusable bags in the car in case they forget the shopping bag. The lady at the refuse tip said this morning she sees a lot less plastic bags now after just three months. The packaging industry just has to follow suit & if plactic is the only logical way to wrap something than it should use recyclable materials.

I've seen people bringing in their clothes baskets
from their laundries to carry their groceries in.
That also seems to be working.

We have shopping bags in the cars.
Woolworths to take to Coles and vice-versa and Audi bags for Audi and the previous two.

meanwhile wind farms kills enormous amounts of birds. Oh well we are the generation of virtue signalling. So so moral!

runner,
yep because we have people who want as much as possible for as little as possible. Value for money & value for effort are no longer a benchmark. One person is running around a Post office 8 hours a day to keep things moving whilst in every Govt office some bureaudroids are spending 7 hours on facebook & one hour drinking coffee from plastic cups.

Ok, so to the next problem, hygiene.

This is something I touched on myself well before the ban, and now it is real, as reports are coming in that some customer supplied bags are containing the likes of mice, or mouse droppings, dirty stains, even soiled nappies, that are being removed prior to the goods going in.

In my industry it has been illegal for years to use any container provided by a customer, even a meat carton that we receive sealed packaged meats in, however this restriction appears to have been removed in line with the bag ban.

Of cause irresponsible people are usually quick to blame anyone but themselves, so the question has to asked, who is going to cop the blame, not if, but when someone falls ill from a contaminated, customer supplied bag/container.

It is possible to have a container that contained chicken juice, very toxic, that once dried may appear clean, then place fresh meat, or even worse, cooked meats like ham etc into it and consume. The consequences can be as bad as death.

Then there is the effects of the blame game, because with the introduction of the likes of facebook, being a businesses best and worst friend at times, adverse comments can cause serious harm to a business, especially a small business and in fact I have had one such incident that has effected my 5 start rating. We did nothing wrong but it effected our rating.

While it may be fine for someone to blame others, the effects on ones business can be very costly, not to mention totally unfair and unwarranted.

Sorry, but while I understand the reasoning behind the ban, this is not the answer, especially if we have an infant or a senior die of food poisoning as they are usually the most venerable.

I have sailed 10,000 nautical miles up & down the Oz east coast, 53000 miles around the Pacific islands, all in a 40Ft yacht, so very close to the water. I have also run tourist boats in the Great Barrier Reef for 8 years.

In all of that I have never seen a plastic shopping bag on the reef, on any of the islands, or on the mainland coast.

This is utter garbage promoted by those useful idiots the greenies, picked up by supermarkets to cut costs.

runner,

You stated that wind farms kill enormous amounts of
birds.

The problem is much more serious than that.
All over the world and especially in the less developed
societies, the pressure of the human population and its
technologies is devastating natural ecosystems.

This pressure takes many forms - urbanization, and highway
construction, transformation of virgin land into farmland,
chemical pollution of fresh water, dredging and landfill
in coastal areas, uncontrolled hunting and poaching,
especially of African wildlife, deliberate and accidental
poisoning of wildlife with pesticides, disruption of
natural predator-prey relationships, strangulation of
millions of birds and fish with discarded styrofoam pellets,
plastic bags, and other synthetic flotsam, dam construction and
irrigation, and massive deforestation.

Biologists estimate that there are anywhere between 5 million
and 50 million species on earth. Of these only about 1.6
million have been classified. The rest - plants, insects,
fish, reptiles, birds, and even some mammals - are still
almost complete mysteries to us. They have never been named,
catalogues, or studied, yet many are becoming extinct even before
we know of their existence. And who knows our future
survival could depend on them. Yet we are so carelessly
destroying. Bears thinking about.

Foxy

u really do make me laugh at times.

Foxy,

Where is the uncontrolled hunting of African wildlife?

Specifically not just "Africa" for an answer.

runner,

I'd have that looked into.

It could be emotional incontinence or Pseudobulbar (PBA_.
It occurs secondary to a neurologic disorder or brain
injury. Have it checked out.

Hasbeen,

Of the 260 million tons of plastic the world produces
each year about 10% ends up in the ocean. 70% of the
mass eventually sinks damaging life on the seabed.

Over 100 million marine animals are killed each year
due to plastic debris in the ocean. Currently it is
estimated that there are 100 million tons of plastic in
oceans around the world.

But hey - you didn't see any of it floating on top -
so it doesn't exist.

Awesome.

Maybe you should join runner in laughing about it.

'I'd have that looked into.

It could be emotional incontinence or Pseudobulbar (PBA_.
It occurs secondary to a neurologic disorder or brain
injury. Have it checked out.'

I think you are right Foxy either I am going a bit mad or your great 'learning' has dumbed you down to levels I would not of thought possible. Problem is most the pysch's are half crazy.

Just about everything comes in plastic, even bales of hay are now plastic wrapped as are lots and lots of pallet loads of (what ever) that is in plastic bags because a plastic wrap around the pallet ensures that the load doesn't slip.

I got a new trailer number plate a few weeks ago and it was plastic wrapped, furthermore "Fitting and Maintenance Instructions"
No 4 says that the plates should only be washed in a mild detergent etc.

This is a NUMBER PLATE for a road vehicle and is subject to dust, flying road grit and stones, as well as heat, frost, snow, ice and large temperature changes.

No wonder we have problems.

Hasbeen you sun me at times, I just find it hard to believe even you have not seen the results of our throw away world while at sea, look at the recent films of Bali and Indonesia, or if you want pull up on any highway near a take away food shop, go to the nearest open drain, one that carries a lot of water in heavy rain,the trail of junk will be right in to adjoining paddocks,some councils , here and over seas, put what looks like prawn nets with big pockets over them and replace them every year.even the greens, [you know they are not my cup of tea] get some things right, just as your conservatives, or is it ultra conservatives? do,rechtub, willing to pay extra, even your profit, to get brown paper bags,they, like the current plastic after going under the lawn mower with grass cuttings, emerge ready for the compost bin, no waste

Hasbeen,
I went for a cruise up to Princess Charlotte bay from Cairns & didn't see anything at sea but hey, go ashore & the high tide mark is marked by rubbish as far as the eye can see & the further north you go the worse it is. Oddly enough though shopping bags are hardly represented. I think this is because shopping bags are light & they get blown inland. I mean hardly any shopping bags would be taken on boats plus they do break up fairly quickly but out of sight & out of mind doesn't mean out of the environment.

Been there, done that Individual, & like you. found incredible amounts of flotsam. As mentioned on another thread, huge numbers of thongs, even a complete ships pilot boarding ladder, but no plastic bags. I wish people would put the lid on their eskys before losing them, so they were some use to the finder.

I have traversed a lot of drying reefs, where things like raincoats get hung up on the coral, but no plastic bags. Shirts, swimsuits, towels all present & correct, but no plastic bags.

I had fun imagining how the bottom half of a bikini came to be washed ashore on a small isolated island, & what may have caused a lady to lose it, but no plastic bags.

Foxy, just where do you get this rubbish? I think you have been reading those greeny/lefty propaganda publications again, or are still listening to their ABC.

Dear Hassie,

Not sure whether they're Green, Red, Blue, or Polka Dot or even
Left, Right or Middle of The Road -
but the information is from Scientific Sources both here and
overseas - including
our own CSIRO. But compared to you - what do they know?

I can't recall where I recently read it but some competent scientists (not aus academics) apparently found traces of plastic in some DNA or something to that effect.

Don't they make enough money on the items we buy that go into the bag to cover the cost of the bag?
I'm going to frown upon anyone who gets stingy over a stupid bag, and I might just stop the purchase and walk out leaving whatever it is on the counter.
Here's a thought...
Just put every item that goes in the bag up 1 cent then they won't have to advertise your greed and stingyness.
Greed and stingyness or even the appearance of such will cost you business.

Its like a pie and sauce, only worse.
The sauce should be free and you should get to squirt on as much as you want yourself.
This is Australia dammit.

Stupidest bloody moron idea they've come up with yet...
Since the last stupidest thing;
The record gets broken pretty often these days, sometimes weekly.

It's like 'What's the latest Irish invention?' only for real...

I've just finished reading an "I hate Coles" blog site.
Seems nobody hates Coles more than those that work there!

AC

I'm ready for their Irish joke. Purchased 600 plastic shopping bags from EBay...bring it on Coles!

Foxy, with respect the hasbeen, hey said he has never seen a shopping bag in the ocean. I have, but not too many.

The bags you do see in the ocean are mainly bait bags, and as more and more fishermen, and ladies, are becoming environmentally aware, they usually stop and collect them. As hassie says, you don't see carry bags, which are the ones being banned, not bait bags. Go figure.

Meanwhile Coles and Woolies are rubbing their hands together. Who would have ever thought their biggest margin would come from a simple plastic bag.

There is no doubt in my mind that this anti plastic bag thing is just another cost cutting, profit based idea and nothing to do with social conscience.
The stores who supplied the bags are riding on the usual left/green hype and hysteria.
The damage caused by these bags is nothing compared to the over-reach the greens are pushing to make their point.
The truth is that the deaths (of wildlife) caused by plastic is minimal, but when it does happen it is played up by all the marshmellows like the greens and their elk.
Everyone has an agenda.
The greens have to keep making mountains out of mole hills or their cred will quickly wean.
The shops have to keep fine tuning their greed.
Meanwhile the sheeple are all bumping into each other telling each other what a great idea it is to remove plastic from circulation.
The opinion of the few of us with a fully functioning brain and not swayed by politics and emotion, and certainly not part of the pathetic public or sheeple, is that there is and always has been an answer to this so called problem.
It has been around since the invention of plastic, but was not fully accepted by industry, and I don't know why.
Maybe one of you brainiacs can answer this one?
Anyway the solution which has been around for decades is 'degradable' plastic.
It used to be that the very same bags we have been using when shopping at major grocery stores, used to break down almost immediately and within days was just a little smattering of very fragile plastic dust and what fragments were still intact would quickly crumble and disintegrate into dust if any attempt was made to touch or pick them up.
If memory serves, it was the sheeple who complained that the bags were not 'fit for purpose', and so the stores complied by getting the manufacturer to make them more sound thereby complying with the sheeples demands.
So then they could go on to re-use them for another purpose.
Recycle maybe?
Yeah, right.

This thread to me at least proves it is getting harder to do the right thing, rubbish in the sea and rivers, paddocks and roads is a problem, but look closely at the claims it is a green/left tree huger conspiracy! yes we the consumers are about to be slugged again, and yes SOME green types drive these things, but recycle and re use are needed things,my point is these new bags are nothing other than an imposed cost, that many will end up on the road sides and in land fill, taking even longer to rot, some one out there may become a millionaire, by inventing a better way,paper bags or the very old string bags may be that way,replacing plastic with plastic is not

Belly,
You're right, it's all about money. I always shudder when I think of the waste that is produced by hospitals. It is nothing short of insane. Just consider the waste from treating drug abusers, it's mind boggling but none-of the Greenies ever turn around & denounce drug abuse. Why not ? Because most of them them fall into the category of drug use. I have yet to meet a Greenie that doesn't openly support Marijuana & that's the only one they admit to using. Then you have stupidity related accident treatment, more often than not repeatedly. Nappies are another severe pollutant. There's hardly anything in our daily life that doesn't revolve in one way or another around plastic, most of frivolous. Just look at some of the plastic toys, why does the Dept of Environment permit the importation ? You guessed it, $$$.
Many, many years ago I saw a documentary about the beauty industry & the pollution it caused. It was nothing short of frightening. Literally everything humans do revolves around waste & subsequent pollution, most of it utterley unnecessary. I shall refrain from psychological/mental pollution at this stage.

When I was still trying to bread show jumpers I used to have to supplement the mares & foals with calcium for bone development, critical for jumpers. You need phosphorus with calcium for absorption by the horse.

Rather than big bags which tended to go hard in my open front feed shed, I bought a couple of kilos at a time of powdered supplies from the produce store in guess what. Yes plastic shopping bags.

Now down the back of the feed shed, where I mixed the stuff into molasses behind the bales of Lucerne it is pretty dark. No sun ever gets into there, & nothing like full light.

A couple of times when I had washed the containers I stored these powders in, & forgotten to bring them back, I stored the stuff in those plastic bags. Big mistake. Even In the reduced light of the shed the bags has suffered ultra violet degradation in less than 4 weeks, & started to fall apart.

Hang one on a fence in full light, & they are breaking down in way less than a month, & have disappeared into the dirt in 2 months.

If your academics don't know this Foxy, it is time to find some new academics, not packaging.

Hasbeen not a chance I or most thinking people will find any common sense in that post,stop along the road to your next jump event, walk just a few yards, you will find far more junk than you wish, another post I put forward the view a job for every one could be found, in addition, to current efforts just cleaning up after us could keep hundreds of thousands around the world in work forever.we nearly need a chain saw to get some things out of the packet these days, and any beach, any place in the world, after a big sea is all the evidence you ever need to support some thing better

Royal Auto Magazine, the latest issue, Vol. 86,
No. 6, July 2018 - has an article on page 30 -
"War on Plastic ."

It tells us that close to half a million single-use
plastic bags end up in Australian landfill every hour.
Every hour.

A staggering 13 million plastic bags are used across
the country daily. And, each year 50 million plastic
bags approx. two for each member of our population
end up in Australia's waterways.

The figures are staggering and momentum is gathering
against them.

Queensland and Western Australia will ban single-use plastic
bags from 1st July, bringing them into line with the ACT,
South Australia, and Tasmania where similar bans exist.
Victoria committed to a ban last year with a commencement date
for this year yet to be announced. New South Wales has not
committed to a ban.

"There is strong scientific evidence pointing to the significant
impact plastic bags present to the environment , including risks
to marine life and pollution of waterways," says Simon Mikedis,
RACV's Manager of environmental sustainability.

"Being non-biodegradable, the bags just become smaller and
smaller toxic pieces of plastic which often lead to ingestion
by animals low on the food chain," says Simon.

The flow-on effect can be deadly for larger mammals.

Earlier this year a sperm whale was found washed up on a Spanish
beach with almost 30 kilograms of rubbish, including plastic bags,
blocking its digestive system.

Plastic bags take between 400 and 1000 years to break down, and
Simon says this lengthy process can cause "major issues due to
chemical leaching and animal ingestion."

The success of a legislated ban has been demonstrated in the
ACT, where lightweight bags have been banned since 2011.
A review in 2014 found it had contributed to 36 per cent drop
in the number of plastic bags going to landfill.

Anyway, the article is worth a read for those interested in
the facts.

Woolworths are giving away their plastic bags for free for two weeks, the bags are to cost 15 cents after that and let us be honest, at some point just as likely to end up in land fill as any, paper bags do rot and can be another product made from recycled card board and paper, why not? why too can we not purchase high quality reusable containers for dish washing and other liquids, returning them?

Belly only minutes ago, we heard on the news, that Woolys have had a 'backlash' from the public, over the removal of single use plastic bags, so they are offering them the 15c ones for free for a couple of weeks.
There have been some really emotional angry scenes which led them to this action.
The staff were abused and customers reacted in many strange and angry ways.
I refuse to accept this new rule, not just because it is inconvenient, as I don't want to leave a whole swag of bags in each car, (I have approx 6 cars) 'just in case' I happen to go past the shop for some supplies.
It is a fact that these bags can be chemically designed to break down after a day or two, and they ultimately turn to dust.
The result is not a threat to anything.
So if retailers stepped back to when these bags were first introduced and returned to the good ole' dis-integrating bags of old, the problem would be resolved.
Even if the bags ended up in land-fill they would break down automatically, with or without sunlight.
There is your answer.
Look back to go forward.

ALTRAV you highlight a view I have held for a few years, my training as both a workplace leader and trainer, along with extensive training in health and safety matters for my last job, has me concerned, how safe are those bags in the boot of some cars? what if an out break came of some transmittable disease? are they safe for shop workers? us? yes current news storys clearly show concerns, I think still some one putting toughened one use brown papers bags on sale in store can become very rich, and that replacing one threat to the environment with another is? idiotic at best

Let's stop the lie that our plastic shopping bags have little impact on wild life.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3265825/Shocking-x-ray-autopsy-photos-shopping-bags-kill-sea-turtles-leaving-balls-plastic-stomach-rupture-intestines.html

“Senior veterinarian at Sydney's Taronga Zoo Dr Larry Vogelnest said 70 per cent of turtles they get in have ingested plastic and about 20 per cent of those end up dying”

The plastic bags from asian countries would unlikely be lasting long enough intact to be impacting our oceanic wildlife. These are our own, blown from our own car parks or flushed down our own drains to enter our water ways.

This has been the responsible thing to do and all the people who have been use to shopping at places like Aldi will hardly notice the difference.

It's not just shopping bags though, I bought some cheap paint brushes yesterday and they came in a plastic container; the list is just about endless, I noticed in the hardware store that galvanized gate hinges were in plastic.

It is not just plastic bags. Everything is throw away these days. And the people who moan and groan and invent problems that do not exist should be thrown away, too.

ttbn,

Lead by example old chap.

Steeley, I care not for the small INSIGNIFICANT number of wildlife that happen upon these things and die.
Put some relativity into your premise.
If you want to give an example of 'real' mass murder of the the worlds marine life, tell us about the millions of tons of fish killed every year.
Oh, wait, no that's for us to eat.
I know, we can all go vegetarian.
No wait, that's not going to work because as carnivores we need a balanced intake and mix of such things as proteins, which a 'grass' only diet will not supply in the quantities needed to fend off many illnesses and diseases.
Look as an industrial designer, I am wired to look at a problem and fix it, but in such a way that does not compromise people, and that includes cost, because if you make things too expensive, you are compromising people.
There is a propensity of immaturity on a very large scale in todays thinking by too many people.
We must stop thinking like children and 'grow up'.
As the saying goes 'shithappens, get over it or get used to it'.
The marshmellows of the world are a nuisance and just another encumbrance on the rest of us.
I wish people would stop quoting this person or that expert.
I don't care.
We have a responsibility to staying alive and healthy.
Over the life of the earth many living things have died for one reason or another.
Mostly as food, but much as folly.
For example all this hoo haa over dead sheep.
These tree hugging morons have obviously never even driven past a farm or sheep station.
If you want the truth about something, go to the source, track down the truth, then and only then will you speak with authority not the excrement the tree hugging greens and the marshmellows spew.

It is the people who stand firmly in the way of change or improvement that get to me, seen here some refuse to see a truth Islands of plastic in the sea exist, our beaches are dirty, plastic we are told daily is killing sea life,yet some claim it is not true even a plot by the left, mind you being left of some of them is humanitys default position,thankfully most know we need to improve in many areas and most try to do just that

Steely, like all those marine researchers in Townsville, your end of the earth vet was probably looking for a research grant.

He also failed to mention Sydney is way out of turtle living range. Any weak enough to have been swept down the coast by the east coast current were not likely to survive, & may have grabbed at anything to get something in its stomach.

I'm sure there are lots of plastic bags in Sydney harbour, what would you expect with all the greenies living there.

Is Mise plastic packaging is public driven. I used to manufacture/market water/energy saving showers. We sold them in a cardboard box. In the country people asked for what they wanted from an assistant, & they sold well. No so in the city.

We changed to clear clamshell plastic packaging, which hung on a display stand, & even in cities they walked out the door. Manufacturers & retailers are forced to market their products in display packaging, as it is what the public want. If you don't cater to the public desire, you aren't going to sell stuff.

Then bathrooms became a fashion statement. We had to enclose our solid brass, last forever, shower head in a coloured or chrome plated plastic housing, to sell them in the city.

Dear Belly,

I'll repeat the old joke - trying to argue with some
people is like playing chess
with a pigeon. There's no point to it. The pigeon will
knock over the pieces, crap all over the board, and
then fly off and join the flock, claiming victory.

But Kudos to you for trying.

I read the results of a study recently and uunfortunately forgot where but the message was that single use plastic bags are actually the least damaging to the environment.
Paper bags require massive investment in either trees, or hemp or whatever material you wish to use. This means more land clearing which is worse for the environment, then there is the environmental cost of manufacturing.
Reusable plastic bags and reusable non plastic bags have to be used something like 50-100 times to gain an environmental advantage over single use bags.
As has been mentioned, hygiene and public health are also an issue with reusable bags.
And no one ever talks about the one area that can be improved by removing plastic and that is disposable nappies. Billions of these things are used every day and I don’t know about down south but up here they litter all the best fishing and camping spots, even in the most remote areas. It’s worse on aboriginal land, nappies are everywhere people live or camp.
Yes they are convenient but they are expensive both financially and environmentaly.

Went to the local Supermarket yesterday & asked several people how they felt about the bag ban. Unanimously, they endorsed it. Not a single complaint.

Interesting individual, I have read reports that our IQ has been falling of late, but I didn't realise it has fallen so far so quickly.

Hasbeen,
?? Is that an egotist thing I'm not getting ?

Individual, I don't know where you live or went to get this shining endorsement, but let me correct you with a fact; if you read my previous comment, only a couple ago, you will see that the topic of single use plastic bags made news here only yesterday.
The backlash and anger was that serious that Woolys had to start GIVING AWAY the 15c re-usable bags for free, for at least the next couple of weeks till either something is resolved or the customers calm down.
Everything in the retail/sales world is consumer driven.
You can push your ideological agenda as much as you like, but if it is not popular, it's not popular.
Now the main reason I get pissed off with anyone pushing something is that they insist that they are better than those who disagree and show their true ignorant and low cast left selves by their language and attitude.
I've got news for you all;
Just because you think your right and don't have the guts to stand and fight but rather take the easy way out by simply looking at something with tunnel vision, does not make you right.
It just makes you look stubborn, petulant and narrow or even closed minded.
Those of you who oppose my views must think I disagree with you just because I feel like it.
Not so.
I disagree because the people I speak of don't think of the implications or ramifications of what they are promoting.
Of course I don't want plastic littering everywhere and so many other things that the left pushes, but at least I try to find a solution before I 'pull the plug', unlike those I speak of,who have a 'I don't care' attitude and care not about the resultant disasters they create and leave behind as a result of their actions and agenda.
Those of you who wish to take your own bags probably have been doing so forever.
Good for you.
Those who prefer the plastic bags, might have to settle for the ones that turn to dust after a few days.

Seems some posters give reason for me to be proud, almost any thing I support brands me leftist, these new bags will take much longer to rot,see Aldi bags,and they will end up in land fill, even bottles, now being returned to be recycled may well end there too, if it is not economical to re use the glass.
large paper bags could have paid advertising on them to cut the costs

Dear Belly,

Thank You for raising this issue.

At least we are having a discussion - which is a start.

cont'd ...

I forgot to add - KUDOS to you! (smile).

Only a couple of days ago a friend returned from overseas via Sydney where he had to spend all day waiting for a connecting flight to Nth Qld.
He told me "Mate, you have no idea what world these people down there live in. Youc crack a joke & they just stare at you, ask them a question & they just stare at you. No sense of humour, no conversational skills, socially inept, your'e just so lucky to have escaped this robotic madness". Me thinks he was spot-on.
Reminded me when I went to Melbourne ten years ago, everyone wore black & I jokingly asked where the funearal was, I got those blank looks my friend was talking about. No man, I'm glad I'm still living in a community of people.
And yes, no matter what you & our peacetime war hero might have to say, no-one up here needs counselling because there are no more shopping bags. Ah, real people, there's a lot to said for them !

Up in Maharastra State in India they are world leaders.

"As Maharashtra grapples with the ban on almost all single-use plastic products, questions abound about the efficacy of the state government's move, especially when compared to anti-plastic policies in other states. The authorities' efforts in implementing the ban, and more pressingly, the exact 'Dos and Don'ts' of the much-speculated step are being closely followed as well.The products that are included in the ban — the list of which was first issued by the Devendra Fadnavis-led government in March this year — are: All kinds of plastic bags (both with and without a handle), all plastic or thermocol cutlery such as spoons and plates, non-woven polypropene bags, food containers, plastic packaging and PET and PETE bottles...The exemptions include: Plastic used for medicine packaging, food grade plastic, plastic used for the handling of solid waste, and that used for manufacturing and exporting purposes, along with compostable bags for agriculture.
On 25 June, Environment Minister Ramdas Kadam allowed for the exemption of thermocol for decoration and fish storage.
To ensure adherence to the ban by manufacturers, small businesses and citizens, the government has imposed fines of up to Rs 25,000 and a 3-month sentence for regular offenders, while first and second-time offenders are to be charged Rs 5,000 and Rs 10,000 respectively. The Brihanmumbai Municipal Corporation (BMC) in Mumbai has conducted inspections and raids around the city since 23 June, which is when the ban was first imposed."

http://www.firstpost.com/tech/science/maharashtra-plastic-ban-explained-advantages-alternatives-and-the-way-ahead-4612191.html

Bringing your own bags assumes you are just going to the shops to get groceries,
Women in particular, may shop and wander around shopping for two hours and get groceries just before they leave.

Most handbags won’t hold many shopping bags so I guess the answer will be to leave the bags in the car until you finish leisure shopping and then go,out to the car to get
the grocery bags. Not too much of a problem.

The other thing I would query:-is why they had to go to Bali to film tonnes of plastic in the water? Surely if they wanted to prove Australian waters were full of plastic they would have filmed here. Or could they not find so much plastic in Australian waters.
And is the plastic washing up here, coming from,Indonesia and Bali to our north?

I noted that a poster on here said the further north you go in Australia, the more plastic on the beaches. ,Again, coming from Islands to our north?
It also seems to me that Australians are very aware of plastic and how it affects sea creatures, because it has been on,our Tvs and in our newspapers for years.
It is more likely, judging by the horrendous amount of plastic in the ocean in Bali that it is washing down here with the ocean currents.

CHERFUL, glad to see someone coming up with evidence to challenge the tree huggers for a change.
It's not possible to expect correct outcomes if the discussion is contaminated with false information.
As I have always said, now that we know the information is false or untrue, so it is that the whole premise is now in doubt and therefore those pushing the point have just destroyed their case even if there ever was the slightest amount of truth to their agenda, they just blew it.

If the question of where said refuse is coming from is avoided by the corporate media, then you know this whole thing is bs.
One thing the left; or people who push these agendas will never do is argue their topics on merit if they won't hold up under scrutiny.
They will deliberately omit facts if they can get away with it for the sake of an agenda, and try to turn the argument around and attack others character or others right to speak.

Do the math.
I recall Coles and Woollies post a net profit of around 3%.

These bags will cost them around 5 cents to buy, sell for 13.6 cents ex gst, which will mean at a profit margin of some 66%, will make them one of the most profitable item they sell, if not the most.

Go figure! Who on earth would have thought the bag the items go into would be a best profit seller.

Of cause with dead mice, roaches, even a dirty nappy being found I shoppers used bags, its only a matter of time before someone get crook, or even dies.

You see bacteria, especially listeria, requires warmth and moisture to multiply, and can lay dormant in dried matter on the bag. Once moister is reintroduced who knows what could happen.

Only time will tell, but I sure hope we don't find out the hard way.

Meanwhile, the grubs of society, they being the ones who litter freely and disrespectfully now, will continue to litter, so all we are doing is punishing those who are already responsible citizens. Sound familiar!

The Sydney press, even this morning reminds me it was always going to be a problem this change from one plastic bag, to another that will take much longer than the one it replaces to rot, both along with the cotton and such ones, will in the end go in to land fill, no plan to recycle them will always work, none seems to exist, and no one can be sure current collected for recycle things are reused, and we pay for the new bags?yes dreamers and even true air heads want us to re use, surly we all do, but this is lip service, it is a fraud,a false fronted clean the environment promise no one intends to keep, bring back a greatly reinforced brown paper bag, sell advertising on it, charge us,even let us return our used ones to store and have them shredded and baled for re use but stop telling us this is going to work or even be worth while

Belly, I don't know if paper bags is the answer.
Even if they make them thick enough.
The tree huggers will tell you we are killing the planet because of the trees that will be needed to produce these bags.
I am reminded of the difficulty and physical dynamics of one over the other.
With paper bags we can only usually carry or hold two bags at a time.
One in each arm.
Sometimes more but usually two.
Whereas with plastic or otherwise, there is some form of handle, which greatly enhances the efficiency of the bag, meaning one can carry several bags, limited only by their strength.
The other point is that paper bags did not cope well with anything moist or prone to attracting moisture, such as anything frozen or normally stored in refrigeration or freezers.
I believe the most efficient and convenient answer, which would also be the most economical and the quickest to implement, would be the re-introduction of the single use plastic bags that started breaking down almost immediately and turned to dust days/weeks later.
This would automatically stop the practice of re-using them, thereby avoiding the possibility of someone becoming ill or worse due to bacterial contamination which was possible under the previous bags, and still is today with people being forced to use multi use bags, cloth or otherwise.
These were the ones issued when the plastic bag idea was first introduced.
Public pressure over the usefulness of the bags made the stores change the chemical structure of the bags to last longer, so they had other uses, thereby making them, 'recyclable', so they thought.
These new bags we use today were supposed to break down later, and they do, but the conditions have to be just right for that to happen.
So if we go back to the bags of old, we should be OK.
No more plastic bags floating around.

There's only one solution.
Were all just going to have to start stealing iteas via the self-serve checkouts to cover the cost of this extortion.

These people are complete idiots.
Next week they will try some new advertising strategy where they try to convince us they care about everyday low prices.
They have the memory of a goldfish, and everything's just a slick advertising campaign to sell us some morons BS.

Well the bag I speak of was in use till about 1960 here, and in America, yes it had no handles but in my shoping at least would go to car in trolley and to house one at a time,we need to think before bringing in another cane toad, plastic that rots quicker, or any thing like it, may pollute on a far bigger scale, how many remember the very first ring pull can? the ring came off and hundreds of millions of them littered our streets, that solution was found,basically, as in my view the until recently exported plastic to China proves, we may re gather but are we truly recycling?

Belly, do not fear.
It's people like me who are called upon to 'fix' a problem if necessary.
Just like the pull can, the 'fix' was to have the ring stay with the can, and hey presto, no more ring pulls defacing the Earth.
So this too will pass, and someone will come up with a solution whereby we can 'have our cake, and eat it too'.
I am convinced the solution lies with the bags of old that used to totally disintegrate into dust after a few days/weeks.
And fear not, the resultant 'dust' will be negligible in both volume and toxins.
And of course if the noisy ones still insist on pushing against these new/old bags, the bags can be 'tweaked' to accommodate even the most flaky of the antagonists.

ALTRAV ok cash can and will be made of us, and yes a future development driven by cash not our interests will come,until it does I will observe the new bags fluttering in the wind and waters with interest

Dear Belly,

Plastic bags can be recycled with other plastic waste.
Unfortunately most people use them as bin liners for
waste.

There was a time when degradable plastic bags were
being made and shops and supermarkets should convert
to using degradable bags. The unfortunate situation with
plastics is that thoughtless people do not dispose of them
in the correct manner and dump them into the environment
where the plastic disintegrates into small particles which
are eaten by birds, animals, and fish. And there lies the
problem. As demonstrated on a recent TV program and in magazine
articles.

Burying plastic into landfill should not create any problems
by virtually replacing solid excavation material with other
waste and covering it over with soils.

Foxy, the bags I spoke of earlier were the degradable kind.
I'm not sure about the ones you speak of but the bags of old when first released were designed to disintegrate to dust within a week or so.
The public complained, that they wanted them to last longer so they could, as they put it, recycle them by using them in another manner. Unfortunately they were changed to last too long before they broke down. Some took far too long and so we see this problem today.
In our defense, it has been noted previously that by far the biggest polluter of plastic is coming from our Northern neighbours, and not us.
With any luck the big stores will reconsider and have the bags go back to the ones we had in the beginning.
Because of their chemical make up and the fact that they turn to dust, any thing bad about them was negligible and therefore not a threat to flora or fauna.

Dear ALTRAV,

I think we are talking about the same bags.

Here's hoping that something good will eventually
come out of all this.

Bring back the string bag!

I made my mother four of them out of Army issue String Vests when I came back from Korea, she had them for many years.

Just ask yourselves this; Why do nails come in a plastic packet at the hardware store?

I give up. Why?

Dear Hasbeen,

You wrote;

“Steely, like all those marine researchers in Townsville, your end of the earth vet was probably looking for a research grant. He also failed to mention Sydney is way out of turtle living range. Any weak enough to have been swept down the coast by the east coast current were not likely to survive, & may have grabbed at anything to get something in its stomach.”

Bloody hell mate you have set yourself up time and time again as some marine/barrier reef/naval expert and you think sea turtles only get as far as Sydney if they are sick.

The leatherback turtle's migratory range even goes below Tasmania. On rare occasions they even rock up into
port Phillip Bay;

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-12-20/endangered-leatherback-turtle-spotted-in-port-phillip-bay/5981088

The Great Barrier Reef's Green Turtle's range extends below Sydney as does the Loggerhead sea turtle. The green turtles graze on the sea grasses within the harbour;

http://www.smh.com.au/environment/conservation/for-the-citys-sea-turtles-survival-still-hangs-in-the-balance-20100407-rsax.html

You really do need to stop making these things up as you go. It is not a good look.

Dear ALTRAV,

You wrote;

“I care not for the small INSIGNIFICANT number of wildlife that happen upon these things and die.”

Of course you don't because if you did it would display a maturity we both know you do not possess. It is part of developmental psychology. As an infant you are primarily concerned about your own needs. After a while you grow to care about those of your immediate family, then villiage, then state/country, then others outside your county, then on to other species.

I repeatedly invite you to grow up and perhaps one day you will. Today is not that day.

ALTRAV,

No real reason at all, it just makes a bit more profit.

Steeley, it is sad when people like you and Foxy display your in-ability to see the real world as it is, and not as you think it should be.
It's not me who is immature.
You like some others, say something and we're all supposed to believe it because you say so.
Now back to topic.
Instead of talking like a mindless child, how about you justify why I should give a crap about the very, very few creatures that die by the hand of plastic, as opposed to the millions of creatures we kill as part of our food intake.
Do you see how irrelevant you and your mates are?
You all carry on like children over the death of some sheep on a ship, where the environment is far better than on some remote back stretch of a sheep station where it's 150 in the water bag, but you refuse to admit the obvious because you are all immature, petty brainless children.
None of you are smart enough to realise that the animals that died, were sick and would have died anyway.
Or is that not possible because you say so?
The lies you all tell and the truths you all stretch just to win your pathetic agenda.
If you are so concerned about these creatures being killed by plastic, get off your arses, and start cleaning things up.
That's how you do something about it, not sit in your comfortable chairs in your nice little rooms spewing out ignorant rants.
Morons!
I at least am a realist and tell it like it is, un-embellished and unashamed.
I am being honest and truthfull, by saying I don't give a crap.
You and your lot are a bunch of sanctimonious BS pushers.
So put your money where your big mouths are, put on your coats and get out there and save the planet.
NO?
I didn't think so.
In future if someone says they don't give a crap, thank him for being honest, not bag him because your too stupid to actually accept that they might be right.
MORONS!

Dear ALTRAV,

It isn't like you have feelings about either which is why I quite reasonably made the call on your lack of maturity, or perhaps arrested development. All you seem to really care about is yourself and your ego which is obviously extremely fragile and is why you are so troubled by women who 'don't know their place'.

A deep misogynist who doesn't care how animals are treated rings more than a few bells my friend. It is a repeating theme of which you are inordinately smug about. Again I advise seeking help.

Steely, again I care not what you say.
Unlike you, I do not attack someone for speaking their mind, I just respond to the veracity of what they say, unless they attack me first.
Now because your comments are your opinion, and as usual based on little or no facts, your wasting your time.
If I say I don't give a crap about a few creatures killed by plastic, does not mean you have a monopoly on physico-analysing anyone.
You have not demonstrated that your opinions are in any way relevant.
You are supposed to respond to my comment with reasons why the death of a few fish matter, in the greater scheme of things.
Not rave and rant incessantly like a nut job, off topic.
Now either respond on topic or, like yourself and the rest of the marshmellows, shut up.
If you wish to continue, the topic is, 'Single use Plastic'.
Thank you.

You know ALTRAV does make a pretty good argument in regards to the sheep.
(Not that I'm saying I agree though).
Why do we care about their welfare when their purpose was to be killed and eaten anyway?
Let's change things around, and make it people instead of animals.
Let's pretend I'm Hannibal Lector and you people are all invited to the dinner party.
The stupidity of it all is despite the fact everyone knows Hannibal likes to kill and eat people, your primary complaint is the conditions of the mini bus ride that came to pick you up.
- All seems pretty dumb right ? -

That said I do care about the welfare of animals we export.
But facts are you can ship more if you pack them like sardines, and it doesn't matter what the % mortality is, it doesn't matter if half the animals die and or are thrown to the sharks sick and dying. As long as the overall venture is still profitable and some rich people still get their lamb chops.
That's how the world really works right, it all comes down to money first not care of animals, which seems to come second.

AC, please, reality check.
In the 'real' world these animals are not pets.
Their whole purpose in life is to be killed and eaten.
Have you ever seen an animal attacked by a pack of, say dogs.
It's not a pretty sight.
But that's life.
Or watched a sheep die of heat exhaustion.
I can do nothing to help them because they have fallen victims of their situations.
If it is your pet that is suffering, by all means go to it's aid.
But to expect anyone to oversea thousands of sheep the same way one would oversea their pet, is clearly mentally imbalanced.
As mature adults we must rationalise and make decisions based on many things.
Thinking like a five year old is not rational thinking and is not the basis of the best or most appropriate outcomes or decisions.
In the real world we have to harden to these things and look beyond to the bigger picture and the end game.
So to all the marshmellows out there, stay home, don't watch telly, don't read the newspapers or look at the internet.
On the other hand, get out more often and sea, read and hear more about the 'real' world and you won't come off looking and sounding like children.

Hey ALTRAV,
Whilst I accept these animals aren't pets, and that that their sole purpose of being born into this world is to die and be eaten, I do draw a line at needless suffering. They may be just a commodity for trade but if there are ways that good policies and standards can be implemented so that our animals come off the boat in the same condition they do on the boat then I would most certainly support those things that might ensure said animals have a standard of care and mortalities are minimised as much as is reasonably possible.
But you got to look at the bigger picture too.
If the Middle Eastern Sheikh or whoever purchases these animals screams "Screw you Aussies! my South American friends let me pack them like sardines and I will buy from them from now on!", and we don't export sheep anymore and 500 Aussie farmers take their rifles, put 'em in their mouths and blow their brains out the top of their skulls for their partners to find, well then that obviously complicates things.

Got to find the right balance I suppose; that said I won't condone or support the needless suffering of animals we export. I'd maybe torerate some of it if the business was essential to our farmers, but in principle not really and I think the animals deserve to be treated fairly and not poorly treated while alive.

We have all notices have we not? in any thread any subject we let our views about politics drive us? even to the point of claiming others views are a result of their WRONG politics?a visitor from another country briefly dropping in on our verbal combat may well think we can not,some of us, give consideration without insulting one another to the point of forgetting what we are talking about?yes know I am a new comer/returnee but it needs to be said now and again so as a Libtard lefty it remains my view man has impacted badly on this planet, and we must one day find better ways to stop doing that, from turning our best coast farm lands to housing, to truly re using and recycling our waste, and to stop profiting by introducing schemes that are known to never ever be going to work EG one plastic bag for another

Shopping over for next two weeks got my first look at the new 15 cent bags, nine of them, already on the way to land fill I do not and will not use dirty bags to carry my food, and why put them in the recycle bin? we know,local press told us, it only goes in to land fill in any case, another good intention that resulted in nothing changing.

Belly the reason so many bags go to land fill rather than recycling, is because the loads become contaminated, and once this occurs the whole load is dumped.

Take drink/milk bottles. Before placing them in the recycle bin, they should be rinsed and the lids left off. Hang on! what about the wasted water used to clean them? Dog chasing its tail perhaps.

The recycling thing is just a huge money making scam, a scam that has made some people very rich.

The fact is that the only reason we even have an issue with plastic bags is because of irresponsible people, and just because you change the law will not change their attitudes, so responsible people get charged or change their ways, while irresponsible people keep doing what they have been doing simply because they don't care and the problem remains.

Yet another case of treating the symptom but ignoring the cause.

Single-use plastic bags is a misnomer. They have never been single-use at my place.

Most are clean when brought home from the supermarket and I use them to collect used tissues, other paper products, and kitchen garbage.

Then it's off to the wheelie for land fill.

All this new move does is force me to purchase bags that will be used for the same purpose as the alleged single-use plastic bags - to the dump.

ALTRAV.

Of course, some of the sheep were sick, we all know that farmers send sick sheep to market and that the Inspectors and those from the RSPCA are all in the pay of the farmers and turn a blind eye.

The sheep on shipboard that were shewn up to their necks in liquid manure were too sick to swim so were drowning in the fluid excrement.

Is Mise, I hope you were attempting some humour.
'Up to their necks in liquid manure'?
YUK, trying to even picture it invokes some dry reaching.
No seriously.
What you describe is physically impossible.
The fact that they may be standing in sewage at times is possible until they wash the pens out, which is part of the routine.
If you take a snapshot of the pens at their worst, you will see the yucky mess.
Moments later it's clean again.
The post wash pics aren't quite as damaging as the pre-wash ones, so we only get to see the bad ones so as to help the tree huggers try to con people into believing them and their agenda.
I tell you what, next time you go to the loo, take a pic of the bowl after you've done a poo.
Yucky right?
Then take a pic just after you flush.
Boring right?
Well that pretty much sums up the tree huggers.
They prefer to be associated with poo than with reality.

rechtub here we differ like another post I re used my bags, even chopped them up under the mower and put them in the compost, we differ because I firmly think we need to re use, cost or no cost, right nor the re used milk bottle water use or not would be a positive in my view, all bottles if re filled would at least be better than land fill, as much money can be made in sustainable use as current single use if we are prepared to pay, its the total fraud we currently see in recycles still ending up in land fill that irks me PS water after use can be re used too

"Is Mise, I hope you were attempting some humour.
'Up to their necks in liquid manure'?"

No, not humour but satire, which seems to have gone over your head,
but the pics of the sheep struggling to keep their heads above the liquid excrement were shewn on TV and were, in part, what prompted the prompt ban on the company continuing live exports.

Is Mise, really?
What program were you watching.
You've got it waaaaaaay wrong.
These ships are not huge swimming pools, I ought to know.
They are open sided so that the animals get fresh air flowing through the holding pens.
I think you may be confusing the car carriers with the sheep ships.
The car carriers are completely enclosed.
They have to be to protect the cars from the high seas.
The sheep pens get washed when necessary as well.
Mate you have to understand that if someone is going to make a story out of something they are not going to tell or show the 'real' story, because if they did, there would be no story.
Think about it.
I'm telling you, I cannot come up with a single scenario where the sheep are neck deep in anything.
Unless we speak of the eradication baths they put them through but that's part of the drenching and de-parasiting process.
I'm sorry Is Mise, it appears you've been had.
This is exactly the kind of manipulation of the facts that the sick tree hugging bastards resort to, to try to make their point.
No sorry mate.
No treading neck deep in sheepshit here.
Just doesn't happen.

ALTRAV,

There is so much available on the web I suggest
you Google some of it before you post.
Here's just one small item from Animals Australia on
what's it like on a live export ship. The photos are real.

http://www.animalsaustralia.org/features/whats-it-like-on-a-live-export-ship.php

Dear ALTRAV,

You claim “Unlike you, I do not attack someone for speaking their mind”

Of course you do but that is not the point. I am actually relieved you are speaking your mind. It enables others to see you for what you are, highly egotistical, deeply misogynistic and uncaring about animals.

You comments are not those of a normal person and I keep calling them out so you don't ever get the notion that the things you are saying is reasonable or civil or normal. They aren't.

You have issues that require the attention of a professional. Your repeated labeling of women who threaten your sense of masculinity as maggots is indicative of someone who is prepared to dehumanise women which is often seen in those who do women harm.

There is little you have said which convinces me you wouldn't be one of them.

Steeley, 'ET TU'.
If we must go off topic again, fine.
Be it on your head when the forum police comes 'a callin'.
OK let's see, you have decided to stand with the marshmellows and soft cocks, fine.
Just as I have shown myself to stand up for what is right, you have decided to go with all things wrong.
I won't bother with the character assassination which is part of your lot's 'daily bread'.
Because you are blind to the 'real' world like the others, you refuse to accept that I AM normal.
In your haste to runeth the mouth off you did not stop to familiarise yourself with my 'speak'.
Had you remembered to put your brain in gear before you engaged your mouth and screamed off with both wheels spinning abuse, you would have seen that the 'Maggots' I refer to are the troublesome 'females' that have ruined society and the sanctity of marriage.
NOT the WOMEN!
The women are just fine.
So re-program that lefty, 'male' brain of yours and learn to see what is being said, not what you think is being said.
As for me I will keep telling those of your elk that I am all there and know exactly what to say and do.
You see unlike you and the other 'children' out there I don't care what people say about me or what they call me.
If you truly have read my posts, you should have that little fact well and truly burned in your, OH sorry you may not have the mental capacity for certain information.
Ah well keep talking amongst yourselves, as you are the only ones who believe in your load of crap.
The rest of us 99% will keep calling a spade a spade, a queer a queer, a maggot a maggot, ans so on.
Oh I do hope you get the drift.

Dear ALTRAV,

Oh I most certainly get your drift and have done for a while.

You say you don't care about animal suffering at all. There aren't many people who would admit to that degree of lack of empathy. It isn't normal nor healthy. That is why I will continue to flag it.

At least go and talk to someone about it.

Steeley, listen to yourself.
I don't have to see anybody.
Mate it is you who needs to see someone and soon.
Why do you insist on these personal attacks especially when you are told over and over again to stay on topic.
Keep it up, you'll get the arse anytime soon.
I think you've run your course on this topic, so you can move on now.
I think we all get that you are devoid of any real life experiences.
As for me not having sympathy for animals; if I'm OK with it what's it got to do with you?
So according to you just because someone sees animals as just that, they are bad people with no sympathy.
Mate if you want to harbour an animal, for no good reason other than if you have a farm or station or are blind and so on, that's your business.
As I don't, it is therefore my business and not open to criticism by you or anyone else.
You have demonstrated that you have no information or facts to challenge my comments, just like the rest of your group.
Therefore as you've not had any viable and relevant information on this topic, I think you ran your course a while ago.
Given there is no more to be said on this topic, I will leave you to talk to the mirror, as it is the only one who will agree with you.
On to the next bunch of students.

No need to panic! we can get back on topic in a second, if the live export must continue, me thinks it should not, get every sheep in to a disposable plastic bag! those not living in NSW may not be seeing the debate about this issue, a debate that refuses to even glimpse at the big question, what at the very end of its life becomes of this new plastic bag

I got a free 15c Woolies bag yesterday, when I stopped in to grab a few things.
I've steered clear of the place for the last week or so but had pretty much decided I'd pay their 15c extortion and continue using them as bin bags afterwards.
So now twice as much plastic from the bags will go in landfill because there's more plastic in these bags.

They're not even really good as bin bags either, the handles are different, and it occurs to me that now a few million or more of those wireframed bag holders with the plastic lids that go on your cupboard door and make use of those previous bags will end up in landfill now as well.

And what about the 'bag bags'?
- Specifically made to hold our bags for re-use.

It occurs to me that this concept of 'single use bag' is total deceitful lying bs to begin with.

They know people will buy the bags.
They know some people will pay whatever it costs for what they need.
And the also know that many people, especially busy mother's with large trolleys aren't going to bring their own bags, and others will never put food in a bag used previously.

And they get a big logo on the side of the bag meaning we're paying for their advertising.

The fact they both do it virtually at the same time feels like collusion.
(Thanks Bilderbergers)

We have products and businesses built specifically around the second-use of those old bags, like a finely tuned system that did work.

So my original opinion that this idea is currently the record holder for "dumbest idea in the country, ever" still stands.
But I'm sure it won't be long till there's something new.

Dear Belly,

This is very much on topic. The acceptance on the ban on single use plastic bags is primarily driven by an acceptance by people of their impact on wildlife.

Places like Exmouth in WA, which is next door to Nigaloo Reef, banned them over 10 years ago. The locals were very attuned to what these bags were doing to the environment. It was easy for them to go with getting rid of them.

However I have no problem with people who question the impact. Generally with further research they can get more information and often acknowledge what researchers and wildlife carers are saying.

ALTRAV on the other hand is different. He claims to have zero regard for the suffering of animals. This lack of empathy is aberrant and concerning. Normally I challenge misinformation because it is often ideologically and or politically motivated. This is not the case here. It is strictly about him and the need for him to acknowledge his views are not just some over compensatory masculinity tripe but rather seriously out of whack perspectives that need attention.

We are so used to exploiting natural resources and
dumping our waste products into our environment that
we frequently forget that resources are limited and
exhaustible and that what we're doing can disrupt
the ecological balance on which our very survival
depends.

Over the past century, pollution of the environment
has begun to threaten the ecological balance of the
planet and the health of many of its species. The
pollution problem is becoming exceedingly difficult
to solve. The effects of pollution may not show
up for many years, so severe environmental damage
can occur with little public awareness that it is
taking place. Preventing or correcting pollution
needs to be an ongoing process and most industrialised
nations are now actively trying to limit its effects.
We need to be a part of this - by joining in this
process.

AC, could not agree more.
Good rendition of the situation.
I would like to ask of you.
I don't suppose you have read my previous comments and my total disgust for the Bilderberg Group and the Rothschilds, so it is that when I see them mentioned I like to follow up so as to add to my research on the scum, (and the fact that it's all negative).
My question is;
What is the link or connection to them and the supermarkets?
Hope you can help.

SeelRedux arm chair critic much to agree with there, but please consider,yes we must re use our currently wasted products, for every ones sake, my shop was nine bags, still shop as if town was 100 klm, away, to save on fuel, those bags are in the rubbish bin, and will be land fill tomorrow,we here know, must recycles go in to landfill, one council even told us,a truth is there, will these damn rot proof bags change any thing? why not? gee get of the lounge walk just a bit to a roadside truck stop, rubbish every place,and it stays there sometimes we can do better we can pay more but not if it, the whole new system, is a lie.PS twice, hard to believe but true found red bellied black snakes head firmly stuck in thrown away drink cans, one had to be killed the other had a deep cut when it went free,water living wild life suffers most

Foxy as usual got to the very heart of all our concerns

Foxy,

"We need to be a part of this - by joining in this
process."

Well said, now what we want to do, indeed should do, is stop all coal exports as we are contributing massively to global pollution, we export to China and India which are both starting new coal fired power stations and probably using our coal in them or else our exports are allowing them to use inferior coal in power stations thus increasing pollution.

Dear Belly,

We do the bulk of our every day shopping at a Coles which is on the way home. Normally it is a few items and hardly ever need a bag. Our big shop is usually at ALDIs which doesn't have any artificial colours in their food and which hasn't had single use plastic bags since they opened. We keep about 9 ALDI bags in a single one in the boot. We carry it to the trolley then do our shopping. It is a simple matter to fill them on the bench provided. People do this without fuss, without abusing checkout personnel.

I suspect the majority of the angst against the ban is ideologically driven.

We are so used to exploiting natural resources
Foxy,
Yes ! But, we also need to take into account who are the major beneficiaries of this exploitation ?
All those who like to be able to switch on a light, keep food for longer, drive or be flown instead of just relying on one's own capacity to travel, exploit the benefits of the internet etc etc.
Who are these people you might ask ?
Tell you what, to make it more interesting I let you guess. cheers.

You know it's with great relief that the greens are losing ground as a anything resembling a political party.
I see with great amusement and more than a little concern, some of the ideologues and their answer to everything.
OK then, so far they have suggested that we stop all mining, stop all livestock exports, stop using fossil fueled vehicles and many more environmentally sound suggestions.
That's all well and good, but what they don't tell us is what to do to replace these things to keep things in balance.
Now to stop the mining we would have to have something to replace all the minerals, including coal.
Nothing?
OK, then let's turn our attention to livestock export.
They say we can process and value add in Australia.
There goes 90% of our buyers.
What do we replace it with?
Still nothing?
OK plastic bags.
We can replace them with cloth or even better, paper bags, because that will not put extra strain on the environment right?
Oh, wrong again?
So it seems that all these Johny feel good ideas are at best unworkable, at worst totally and completely 'unfit for purpose'.
If you come up with a good idea it has to be cheap as well, for it to be a 'good' idea.
Otherwise it's a 'bad' idea, and must not even be considered, let alone produced.
The reason we will not see any of the greens ideas 'float', is because they are not 'good' ideas and just cost too much.
So before you all start waffling on about what is the environment worth?
Well the answer is it's worth spending a bit more time to find ways of achieving the same end for less cost.
And as long as we have these thieves in Canberra, who will do anything to stop any cheap good ideas to be considered we are not going anywhere and the plastic bag issue is nothing compared to the bigger picture.
Let's not forget, we're not the problem, the countries to the North of us apparently are the culprits.

I will never concede that caring for the environment to just being a green issue, truth tells us people from all sides are concerned,the intent, driven by consumers, in this case was and still is doing some thing good for us all, it will not work until we force the spotlight on every phoney act, such as this, that in the end is not going to work until we truly re use our plastics and much more,a columnist in this mornings press tells those who are concerned to in effect shut up,true debate hopefully with true results is needed not like the plastic burying it out of sight out of mind

Hey ALTRAV,
Coles / Woolies - Bilderberg?
Well I just threw that out there but I suspect I'd be right.
I doubt that any staffmember or CEO of Coles or Woolies attend Bilderberg themselves, but I'm certain that yearly Bilderberg agendas would filter down into various business councils and organisations.

individual,

As our "needs" increase, our capacity for exploitation
expands. We don't see our ravaging of the environment
as "ravaging" at all, it is "progress" or "development."
We are so used to exploiting natural resources and
dumping our waste products into the environment that
we frequently forget that resources are limited and
exhaustible and that what we're doing can disrupt the
ecological balance on which our survival depends.

Armchair Critic you may, in my view do, have some thing there, if the average person just looked at that group he/she may even wake up! an unlikely event but we can hope and indy? please tell me what people throwing rubbish in to our streams rivers roads, using consume and then throw away items has to do with those you want us to name?

has to do with those you want us to name?
Belly,
It has everything to do with it because it includes all of us.

no problem indy you and I are not meant to understand each other,

Belly,
Come to think of it we're all part of this waste/polution thing wether we like it or not. Where we all differ is by our carbon footprint.
I know people who become really fanatic about their waste at home but on the other hand they have no qualms flying around the world, live in airconditioned comfort, enjoy food & commodities, all produced by huge carbon food print industry. Millions upon millions wouldn't even have a job if it weren't for petroleum used to produce plastics for computers etc.
The Plant can handle polution but just not as much as we plague it with.

Sorry but if you read all contributions to this single issue it seems clear we can not handle even it, a single step in a long trip to stop polluting our planet,yes humanity has an impact on every thing it touches and yes some could not care less this thread was meant to highlight the fact this was never going to be a real effort to fix a problem but just another sway to get in to our wallet