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The Forum > General Discussion > Children Locked In Cages

Children Locked In Cages

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The Worlds most affluent nation, the home of the free, the United States of America has sunk to a new low in its treatment of refugees. This time it is innocent children who are being separated from their parents, and then caged like animals in a Texan detention centre.

"One cage had 20 children inside. Scattered about are bottles of water, bags of chips [crisps] and large foil sheets intended to serve as blankets," the Associated Press reports.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-44518942

In my opinion outrageous treatment of innocent children.
Posted by Paul1405, Wednesday, 20 June 2018 6:32:37 AM
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"Caged like animals in a detention centre".

Talk about purple prose, Paul! They have been retained like all illegals. They would not be treated any differently from any other wrong-doer in America. Of course, if you can produce evidence that children are locked in an ACTUAL CAGE (something that doesn't happen to even the worst criminals), I will concede. But, you seem to be still suffering shock from the Hansel and Gretel fairy tale.
Posted by ttbn, Wednesday, 20 June 2018 10:15:57 AM
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Hi Paul,

Will this still be going on next Winter ? Thousands of kids sleeping on concrete floors with tin-foil 'blankets' ?

According to Trump, why ? Because their parents are all criminals and drug-smugglers, probably perverts as well, he says. I wonder if they could mount a class action against him for, at least, defamation ? Keep your eye on the Hispanic vote in next November's Congressional elections. That mongrel has already lost the Black vote, so now the Hispanic vote as well. Oh well, there goes California, and now maybe Texas as well. And, of course, the 'GOP' has lost the vote of anybody with any sense of decency and integrity, perhaps even some of the Evangelicals. Nah. But some of his mates must be shirting themselves about November.

Cheers,

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Wednesday, 20 June 2018 10:16:28 AM
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The orig of this tactic was during the Obama presidency, did not hear anyone here say anything then.
Posted by Philip S, Wednesday, 20 June 2018 10:27:27 AM
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Of course our Paul would like to see the US over run with the dross of the world.

Ratbags like Obama have already done immense damage to the US & the well being of it's people, but ratbags like the greens won't be happy until it is driven down to the equal of some failed African state, the same future they would like for OZ, & all western civilisation.

Gate crashers & boarder ram raiders are not innocent, regardless of their age. Once they enter a territory they have no right to enter they are criminals. Perhaps the kids had little choice, if dragged there by their parents, but criminals none the less.

Try blaming the right people some time Paul. Blame the parents, & the Mexican government, who like Indonesia, facilitate the traversing of their country to the US boarder by these people. If Mexico did not allow their passage, there would be no gate crashers crossing the USboarder.
Posted by Hasbeen, Wednesday, 20 June 2018 10:31:17 AM
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Paul1045,
Unless you're a Muslim I don't think Trump would stop you from going to these camps & help look after these poor children. If I'm not wrong there are quite a number of flights to the US every day & you can take as much as $10,000 in cash with you. That would buy a lot of blankets from a third world child labour factory. Let us konw how you go ?
All the very best, I'll be thinking of you.
Posted by individual, Wednesday, 20 June 2018 10:32:45 AM
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On the base of the Statue of Liberty is a poem which follows:

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
MOTHER OF EXILES. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.

"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

The poem is a Petrarchan sonnet.

The title of the poem and the first two lines refer to the Colossus of Rhodes, which was one of the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World, sometimes described as standing astride the harbor.

The "sea-washed, sunset gates" are the mouths of the Hudson and East Rivers, to the west of Brooklyn. The "imprisoned lightning" refers to the electric light in the torch, then a novelty.

The "air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame" refers to New York Harbor between New York City and Brooklyn, which were consolidated into one unit in 1898, 15 years after the poem was written.
The "huddled masses" are the many immigrants coming to the United States (many of them through Ellis Island at the port of New York).

Possibly, Trump is unaware of it.
Posted by david f, Wednesday, 20 June 2018 11:09:59 AM
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I though this topic would draw out the forums collection of 'Usual Suspects' and right wing ratties, you fellas have not failed to disappoint, how on earth can anyone, unless you are Donald Trump of course and another bloke from history who shall remain anonymous, declare children as criminals?
I can understand, but not necessarily agree with, declaring adults as criminals, but children!
Posted by Paul1405, Wednesday, 20 June 2018 11:19:03 AM
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Wake up Paul, there's a real world out there an' it ain't Green.

Which airline are you going to use?
Posted by Is Mise, Wednesday, 20 June 2018 12:20:04 PM
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I think that David F's quote from the Statue of Liberty
says it all.

What has the USA come to under the current President?

It used to stand as the land of the free, the land of the
brave. And for - "Truth, Justice, and the American Way!"

If this behaviour in now the "American Way?"

Truth and justice is no more!
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 20 June 2018 12:41:12 PM
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Paul1045,
I think you're more of a "usual suspect" here with your idealistic compassion mentality. I noticed how you haven't worked out an answer yet when you're going to help these poor kids.
No-one except you et al are describing these children as criminals in the eyes of those who are constantly working on finding solutions. Here we have a President who actually does go out & works on changing the dreadful practices of the past & here you are denouncing every effort he makes.
The mistake you're making is to look at everything with your mentality rather than with cold hard logic. Why are these children caught up in all this ? Because people like yoursel are perpetually telling the poor that us goody do-gooders in the West will accommodate them & their problems no matter what. Guess what ? The majority don't agree with your rose-coloured views, the majority wants these people to go back to their countries with their children & the West can help them there if they're prepared to help themselves. Westerners who go there for extra cheap exploiting holidays should be required to pay a levy & that would be a good start to get these people off the ground. So, have you checked for available flights yet ? Don't keep us in suspense for too long. Send us updates on the improvement progress you're making there.
Posted by individual, Wednesday, 20 June 2018 12:42:33 PM
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Hi there DAVID F...

I think you'll find, that dialogue inscribed on sections of the Statue of Liberty, referred to lawful immigration, not those individuals who sought to disregard the line as it were. When I was over there, in the Ellis Island museum, I recall seeing stark B & W photographs of lines of people from all parts of Europe, quietly waiting their turn to be interviewed by US Immigration Agents prior to being given permission to land.

I'm sorry DAVID F I believe the intent of those words, were to entice potential immigrants to consider lawfully settling in the US and making it their home. Not meant as a sanctuary for illegals or criminals. And from memory the function of Ellis Is. was to carefully sort, classify and categorise those applicants, to ensure they were not criminals or carrier's of some of the world's deadliest communicable diseases.
Posted by o sung wu, Wednesday, 20 June 2018 12:42:51 PM
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Paul thanks, a thread that reminds me some of us still care, and too that some never did never will, post the Nazi horrors we seem to have adopted much of their hate filled habits, challenge some here to hold one of those broken hearted kids in their arms,some both want no aid and no refugee.migration flow,America once proudly said send me your poor and suffering, these days it makes its own post Trump watch his supporters claim they never liked him.
Posted by Belly, Wednesday, 20 June 2018 1:10:17 PM
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Oh Paul, perhaps your frustration should be aimed at the irresponsible parents who put these kids on the boats in the first place. But hey, why let the truth get in the way of a good story hey Paul.
Posted by rehctub, Wednesday, 20 June 2018 1:35:05 PM
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For anyone interested in the history of immigration
to the USA here is a link:

http://www.history.com/topics/ellis-island#

Things were handled differently in the past and even
recently. And children were never ever kept in cages
no matter how they entered the country - legally or
otherwise.
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 20 June 2018 2:05:42 PM
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Why would anyone in favour of abortion now be concerned about parents and kids being separated from parents. pleeeease!
Posted by runner, Wednesday, 20 June 2018 2:06:57 PM
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Someone has to take it up to you Left wing "ratties",and you know that you were stirring the possum.
Posted by ttbn, Wednesday, 20 June 2018 2:26:47 PM
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Dear o sung wu,

That poem was written before Ellis Island was an entry point. There was little or no illegal immigration. My grandfather came to the USA, got off the boat at Castle Garden and was free to anywhere he liked. He arrived in a cabin. For folks who couldn't afford better than steerage there were some formalities. It was not until 1924 that immigration was greatly restricted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Act_of_1924

As a result of that act many fleeing Hitler or other totalitarian governments were sent back to concentration camps or slaughtered.
Posted by david f, Wednesday, 20 June 2018 3:31:12 PM
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dear oh dear MR Trump wants some control over America's borders. Pity someone did not take control earlier of the marxist swamp trying to ruin everything decent about America.
Posted by runner, Wednesday, 20 June 2018 3:43:24 PM
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No always easy to avoid verbal combat, but always worth while, over the years many have spoken about our often more than unkind comments to each other, the leftist comment? rather silly in truth, see even the greens, not THEIR NSW branch, are not communists, and boats?Americas illeagles come mostly by land! that quote was long ago, but it built today's America,so many here seem to think being a refugee makes you a lessor human, what happened to caring for others?Paul, proud to stand along side you in this matter like you humanity matters to me
Posted by Belly, Wednesday, 20 June 2018 3:48:32 PM
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Hi there DAVID F...

Again you've highlighted my ignorance, however you've helped me understand much more about the early American Immigration programme, before the 1924 Act had been enshrined in law.

Post 1924, anyone who didn't meet the harsher Immigration criteria pursuant to that Act, was often deported back to Europe, and therefore German (Third Reich) expansionism.

All through recorded history, life's always been considered, relatively cheep. Survival often depended upon, the 'have's; as opposed to the 'have not's'. Thanks David F.
Posted by o sung wu, Wednesday, 20 June 2018 4:15:16 PM
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//Why would anyone in favour of abortion now be concerned about parents and kids being separated from parents.//

Hey runner, can I lock your kids in a cage? Pleeeease?

Well, why not? I thought you were in favour of caging kids. What, don't tell me you've suddenly gone off the idea now that it's not some smelly wetback's kid being caged for no reason?

Actually, that goes for all you nutters who consider the caging of children to be a purely political matter, rather than a matter of basic decency.

May I lock your children up in a wire mesh cage even though they've done naught wrong? I assure they'll be well looked after, and definitely not sold to human traffickers or anything ;)

If not, please provide reasons. Thanks.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Wednesday, 20 June 2018 5:48:53 PM
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Hi Runner,

//Why would anyone in favour of abortion now be concerned about parents and kids being separated from parents.//

So ......

(1) people who support abortion actually have no love for their children ?

and/or

2. Latin Americans trying to migrate to the US all support abortion ?

and/or

3. Latin Americans actually hate their own children.

Can you please clarify what you actually mean ?

Thank you, Runner,

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Wednesday, 20 June 2018 7:23:37 PM
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Don't try to gate crash someone's border, where you are unwelcome, with your kids in tow Toni Lavis, & no one will be interested in putting your kids in a cage, or anywhere else.

Try using your kids as a battering ram to force your way into where you have no right to be, & are not wanted, then bad things are likely to follow.

Of course you could stay home, & try to make it somewhere worth living, but that's hard isn't it? Much easier to try to bludge on someone else's work.
Posted by Hasbeen, Wednesday, 20 June 2018 7:33:21 PM
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I don't think that coming from a nation of people
who all originally came from somewhere else and
were lucky enough to be allowed -
to make a life for themselves
here, and for those who came after them - are now
in any sort of position to give advice to others trying to do
the same thing.
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 20 June 2018 7:41:11 PM
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Dear Hasbeen,

You don't own a pair of lederhosen do you?

When Germany was looking to deal with its large influx of Jews escaping persecution in Russia it was people like you who applauded measures to deal with these desperate people, people like you emboldened others around you, people like you happily dehumanised them and fed a populist sentiment which enabled a dictator to flourish. You are evidently one such enabler.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Wednesday, 20 June 2018 8:17:08 PM
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Dear Foxy,

>> What has the USA come to under the current President? <<

I can share your sentiments but would rephrase the question as:

What has the USA come to under its recent Presidents?
Posted by George, Wednesday, 20 June 2018 8:26:46 PM
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Hi Has Been,

You're probably right, that everybody should forget that Texas, New Mexico ('Nueva Mexico' - you can probably see where this is going), Arizona, Nevada, California, Oregon - were once part of the Spanish Vice-Regency of Spain, only around 170 years ago. But the past is the past, let's move on.

It's probably come as a shock for Americans (i.e. people in the US) to realise that they actually have a borders with 'others', people 'not like them' - well, not like many of them - the people come up and who pick their fruit, strawberries, celery, valerian their houses, sort and pack their fish and crabs, and do so many other useful tasks. Big their country may be, but isolated, no.

There was a time, a glorious time, when America, the US, was a solace, a beacon, a leader, for other world, a

"MOTHER OF EXILES. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.

"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

but those days are long gone, it seems. I fear that the 'other' American people will learn that lesson the hard way, in the long run. And for a long time after.

Thanks David F.,

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Wednesday, 20 June 2018 10:25:29 PM
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Saw a photo of the detainee accommodation. Very roomy and neat. Airy and clean. Not even a bird cage in sight, and all very costly for a country legitimately protecting its borders. As always, the Left has no interest in illegals, who they are just using to vent their spleens against the best president since Ronald Reagan, America, and the West in general. These people shouldn't be given the time of day, let alone argued with as if they had anything useful to say.
Posted by ttbn, Wednesday, 20 June 2018 11:55:45 PM
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Hi Joe surely you can see a baby being ripped from a Mother's womb is the severest kind separation. How can anyone then complain about a temporary separation that parents choose when illegally entering a nation. yes Toni if my kids break into your house feel free to take them to the police to be locked up. Just don't feel their heads with your political garbage
Posted by runner, Thursday, 21 June 2018 12:08:12 AM
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//Saw a photo of the detainee accommodation. Very roomy and neat. Airy and clean. Not even a bird cage in sight//

XD

Mate, we've all seen the photos already, in the article Paul linked to. We can all see quite clearly the cages. I imagine you're going to tell me those are photoshopped or that we're all suffering from mass hallucinations or something.

But it's pretty telling that you don't haven't provided a link to the 'real' photos... I guess we're just meant to take it on faith that you're not telling whoppers.

Pics or it didn't happen.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Thursday, 21 June 2018 12:11:47 AM
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Where to start.

Hi Runner,

Surely you would be aware that the mothers of those children ripped from their arms, are very unlikely to have had to have abortions ? One personal tragedy does not definitively mean the other ?

What's the common factor here, Runner ? Women sometimes have abortions: terrible, you might think. And Latin American women trying to get into the US: understandable. So what's the connection ? Is this an abortion issue, a women's issue, or human rights issue ? Your call.
Posted by Loudmouth, Thursday, 21 June 2018 12:37:38 AM
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Good morning to the Trump supporters here, you will know he took his poor country out of the organisation formed to stop inhuman treatment,and that he has yet again back flipped and said he now will keep the children with their parents, what a shame! shame we can never tell if he will do what he says he will, if the mid terms do not harm him greatly, they will harm America
Posted by Belly, Thursday, 21 June 2018 6:53:35 AM
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Bit confronted by the near anti woman stuff here and quite sure we all want an end to these murders/rapes/ sexual assaults, yes men may need to change, but suspect some parenting practices may be first change needed, not my child mums and dads do great harm to their kids, but surely the mob telling us warning women is wrong are just a little bit mad? if YOU do not warn and educate your children you are a very bad father.mother
Posted by Belly, Thursday, 21 June 2018 7:06:04 AM
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Dear Hasbeen,

Well look here. Trump signs an executive order ending the separation of children from their parents. So you basically are now out Trumping Trump. What an thoroughly unedifying path you have taken in your life.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Thursday, 21 June 2018 7:51:05 AM
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Belly is concerned that Trump “took his poor country out of the organisation formed to stop inhuman treatment”, when he really should be concerned about the countries remaining on the human rights committee who don't practice humanity in their own countries or treat their own people with dignity. Then there is Australia, steadily becoming more useless and irrelevant as it slides down toward Third World status.

The UNHRC is the most useless and hypocritical section of the useless and hypocritical United Nations.

Go Trump!
Posted by ttbn, Thursday, 21 June 2018 9:01:45 AM
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Nikki Haley, U.S ambassador to the UN was right in saying that: “For too long the Human Rights Council has been the protector of human rights abusers” (while ripping into Australia for protecting its borders, I might add). Australia doesn't have the moral fibre to be anything but be 'disappointed’ by America’s admirable withdrawal (Bishop). We would rather cosy up to abusers like China, Cuba, Russia and Egypt.

Australians should be demanding we follow the U.S out of the UNHRC and out of the UN itself.
Posted by ttbn, Thursday, 21 June 2018 9:44:54 AM
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//yes Toni if my kids break into your house feel free to take them to the police to be locked up//

But that's not what I asked, is it runner?

I very clearly said:

//May I lock your children up in a wire mesh cage even though they've done naught wrong?//

And if your kids break into my house, that's not doing naught wrong, is it now runner? And taking them to the police is not the same as just locking them in a wire mesh cage. I'm pretty sure that the NSW police force, for all their faults, still draw the line at cruel and unusual punishment of children - most people do, and it concerns me that you appear not to.

So let's try this again, and see if you're still too thick to understand what is, after all, a fairly simple question of ethics.

Is it ethical to use collective punishment to punish wrong-doers when some of the members of the group being punished have done naught wrong?

The question is not whether your kids should be locked up if THEY break into my house, it is whether or not they should subject to cruel and unusual punishment if YOU break into my house.

I take it that's still a yes then, runner?
Posted by Toni Lavis, Thursday, 21 June 2018 9:57:46 AM
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' What's the common factor here, Runner ? Women sometimes have abortions: terrible, you might think. And Latin American women trying to get into the US: understandable. So what's the connection ? Is this an abortion issue, a women's issue, or human rights issue ? Your call.'

Well Joe I would suggest this issue is more about security than Human Rights. I doubt whether the Latin American women are as heartless as the Palestinian women who tie bombs to their children and use them as human shields. I don't doubt the women love their children however I suspect that the marxist encouraging legal entrance are just using the kids as pawns. This is consistent with their practices around the world. Do you really think Sarah Hanson young cares about kids as she brings Islamic illegal immigrants into Europe including kids. Just happens many who encourage and support illegal immigration crying about kids also support the slaughter of the unborn. Very selective tears.

On the other hand the illegal attempts to enter a country will be certainly abused in a massive way if strong actions are not taken. What do you suggest. Allow every family that sends kids in?

Toni just take a bex and stop your silly rant.
Posted by runner, Thursday, 21 June 2018 11:30:06 AM
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turns out the lefties have lied again. The photo of kids in cages was taken in 2014. Wow! More lies from those with Deranged Trump syndrome.

https://www.facebook.com/deneenCRTV/?hc_ref=ARTs6Pbea0Ps1DTuOTglCWGrqrXvHpWTtKUGfv00VY6jVUFJwSsvQE8T0_di1ISX6zs

where is the outrage against Obama. Its not just the ex Australian Humans Rights Commissioner who decides to politise using lies.

surprised you would fall for it Joe. It does back Paul and Toni's sick narrative so that does not surprise.
Posted by runner, Thursday, 21 June 2018 11:47:15 AM
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//Toni just take a bex and stop your silly rant.//

What's this, the undisputed champion of silly rants telling me off for something he does all the time? XD

That's real cute, runner.

Why is it that you're afraid to answer my question? Usually you're only too happy to blow your own trumpet about your superior moral virtue and tell us off for our wicked ways. Don't you want to tell me what an evil, ignorant lefty I am and why the only reason I believe locking children in wire mesh cages is wrong is because I believe the warped narratives of evolution and the big bang?

That's not like you, runner. Feeling OK, buddy?
Posted by Toni Lavis, Thursday, 21 June 2018 11:47:42 AM
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Looking at this Border question quite dispassionately, would everyone disagree, the United States has the moral right to protect it's own Sovereign Borders from interlopers? Surely not.

Let's assume then, it's not so much them defending their Borders; but how. And what they do with those individuals who've they've taken into custody attempting to gain access. It's not an issue of 'Human rights' to protect and defend one's Borders, but a 'Sovereign right'.

I think the major point of disagreement is; what measures the US should take, with those who've they caught breaching their Borders? Clearly it's a crime. However by placing children and youths in cages (custody), is morally contemptible and incompatible with most clear thinking people. Including many US hardline Republicans I would think. However, the question is now moot?

Apparently MR TRUMP has just recently signed an Executive Order, releasing them all into the care, custody and control of their families. An admission I think, the US President acted somewhat hastily on this matter.
Posted by o sung wu, Thursday, 21 June 2018 12:28:06 PM
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No Toni now having your fake caged children exposed you dig in with your silly little games. Instead of facing the fact that you fell for another leftie lie (by choice or ignorance)and yes just like the big bang fantasy. Time to switch to man made gw.
Posted by runner, Thursday, 21 June 2018 12:34:54 PM
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runner,

You've got the analogy all wrong. It isn't the kids breaking into Toni's house but the parents, usually the mother. She thinks that, because she's got the kids in tow, she'll be let off. But instead she's carted off to a detention centre and the kids are taken into care. Happens all the time here and in all law abiding societies.

Now these care facilities aren't 5 star but the kids are adequatley looked after (probably much better than they've ever had in their lives) until the status of Mum is resolved.

Of course, the government is damned for looking after these kids. The mother who committed the crime and tried to use the kids as a get-out-of-jail free card is somehow completely innocent.

This wasn't always the case. The facilities where the kids are held were built by and during the previous presidency which also followed the practice of separating kids from their parents when said parents broke the law. But as we all know, that previous president wasn't criticised for that practice - something to do with his skin colour making it racist to criticise him.

Still it seems the current president has now resolved the problem, much to the distress of those who were exploiting the kids for politicaal gain.

Of course, all these problems with Toni's house being burgled and kid held in care could have been resolved if only Toni has built a wall around his house - but that also, it seems, is racist.
Posted by mhaze, Thursday, 21 June 2018 12:35:50 PM
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thanks mhaze. You are right. The point however is valid that the kids are the pawns. In actual fact a lot of evidence also points to a trafficking trade where kids are not with parents. Something the lefties don't want to know about. Your summing up is much more accurately put then mine. No doubt the 2014 photos have confirmed to all the swamp how bad Trump is although I doubt he could get much worse in their eyes. Someone who has poured egg over the face of the leftist media time after time is never going to be popular. Lies and more lies are all the likes of Paul and Toni have.
Posted by runner, Thursday, 21 June 2018 12:46:59 PM
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Joe you, Foxy & a few others miss one critical point.

When the states welcomed all comers in the early 1900s, & when Oz took in hundreds of thousands of displaced persons after WW11, we gave them very little. They came to build a new life, & had to sink or swim as well as they could, on their own effort.

Remember the tin migrant hostels. A roof sure, but not much else, & anyone wanted out of them. They looked for any work & got out quickly.

There was some annoyance with the policy of the Snowy scheme, which employed migrants in preference to locals, who could only dream of the money "reffos" were earning there. The big difference is of course, they were EARNING there. They got big money, but worked their butts off for it.

Today we have the draw factor that we offer far too much to todays "REFFOS", with long running benefits & preference in housing. Local taxpayers are loosing out in a big way for every one we bring in.

When you start ripping the guts out of the people who pay for the society, & give preference to the blow-in hand out takers, you should be prepared for some resentment. It is a testament to the kind nature of Ozzies that we have not made our feelings felt much more strongly.

If like my son in law's mother in Penrith, I was afraid to go outside my front gate due to African youth gangs, I would be taking much more action.
Posted by Hasbeen, Thursday, 21 June 2018 12:57:51 PM
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I hope, truly, that some of us are not Representative of most, nothing ever can convince me most think taking these kids from their parents is ok,remember the fate of the American Indian, and understand they are the first Americans, and too SOME of these would be migrants are from pure American stock,in a nation of migrants it seems strange that the child of a German migrant, is farming hate, but it is true
Posted by Belly, Thursday, 21 June 2018 2:47:23 PM
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Dear oh dear, so many non sequiturs.

The US has a population of more than 320 million. How many refugees are wevtalking about here ? Five thousand ? That's the equivalent of about 400 arriving in Australia - in other words (given our refugee intake of 14,000 per year), thecequivalrny of what Australia takes every ten days.

As for working, Hispanic refugees and immigrants have a reputation for working bloody hard, doing some of the physically hardest jobs in the US. Who do you think picks the fruit, sorts the crabs, does all the rich people's housework, cleans their pools ?

What a miserable lot of bastards some people are, with Trump as their exemplar.

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Thursday, 21 June 2018 6:16:54 PM
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Keeping it dispassionate o sung wu.

It is as much an asylum issue as it is a border issue. Seeking asylum is not a criminal offence. The horrific conditions that many of these people are fleeing from are the consequence of an inability by regional governance to tackle organised crime. No short term big stick or open arms policy will resolve that issue. Unfortunately we live in an era where co-operation is seen as a weakness. These families need a safe haven. The States and Central America have to work out a solution together. Their attempts so far have failed. Just giving up will solve nothing. If anything it will make the situation far worse. The end result is that this insane defending of one nation's turf plays right into the hands of those gangs whose rampant turf wars are at the very heart of this problem.
Posted by unravel, Thursday, 21 June 2018 7:21:53 PM
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//Now these care facilities aren't 5 star//

A terrific euphemism for locking kids in cages. You should be in PR or something.

They're still locking kids in cages though. I dunno, but to me that sounds like they're just running facilities because they've forgotten the part where they're supposed to care.

Sometimes I wonder if we're heading for a future where everybody forgets that we're supposed to care about kids being locked in cages :(

//But as we all know, that previous president wasn't criticised for that practice - something to do with his skin colour making it racist to criticise him.//

Mate, have you seen Trump's skin colour? If it's racist to criticise people of color, it's definitely racist to criticise Trump. The man is orange for heaven's sake. And he's definitely part of a minority group, because I've never seen another human being such a warm, vibrant shade of orange.

//Of course, all these problems with Toni's house being burgled and kid held in care could have been resolved if only Toni has built a wall around his house//

Funny how Chinese whispers works around here. I just asked runner if I could lock his kids in cage, a totally reasonable request. Next thing runner's got the little tykes breaking into my house, and now mhaze has the parents burgling me.

Thing is though that we're talking about Mexican immigrants here. They're not coming to burgle my house, they're coming to tend to my garden, look after my kids, clean my house and generally do all the shite jobs that the lazy self-indulgent millenials don't want to get their hands dirty with.

But what have the Romans ever done for us?
Posted by Toni Lavis, Friday, 22 June 2018 12:29:55 AM
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It must be hard work, being a Trump supporter, just as you throw every thing you can think of in defense of his latest insult to humanity, he changes his mind, and you have to do it again!The quite brilliant photo, SMH to day, front page of one of the worlds respected magazines, is telling, and promising, it shows some humans still care
Posted by Belly, Friday, 22 June 2018 6:10:56 AM
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What a load of crap.
I was locked up many yrs ago on unpaid fines as a teenager.
They picked me up on Friday night and took me to the old Southport watchhouse.
The large room they put me in was covered with urine and excrement, which they left me in (as well as others) till the next day when they finally moved us to clean it.
Finally Monday came.
About 11am an officer comes in to speak with me.

"We can see you were right now, the fines have actually already been paid some time back just like you said. You can go now."

I should've sued the bastards for wrongful arrest and false imprisonment.
Anyhow...

I muse over how badly the media distorts things and shows contempt for their readers.
Firstly this wasn't Trump's law.
It existed before he came to office, but Obozo supported the illegals.

The reason why Trump passed the new law, is because 80% of kids (mostly young adults not children) arrive unaccompanied, parents come later.

You're all just chumps for sensationalised political headlines, meant to distract you from other news, namely the IG report.
Posted by Armchair Critic, Friday, 22 June 2018 7:17:33 AM
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Hey Belly,
Didn't Labor write a white paper on full employment in 1945?
Still waiting...

Labor buys votes on emotion, but actual policies to achieve anything of value are fairytales.

When I was young and had just joined the workforce I thought unions were there to support the worker.

As I got older I realise unions exist to fund a socialist political agenda, which more or less was the opposite of what I thought I was contributing too.

Not only that, Labor survives from payoffs from the gaming industry.

They sell out the Aussie worker in favour of immigrants (where did diversity quotas come from) and they have no ethics.

What would you expect from these sellout used-car salesmen?

You're on the right track though.
The answer is to not offer money as welfare but a job instead, and safeguard human usefulness in an age of robots and automation.

I say double dole to every unemployed person who works in a separate job system, doing things to help the government save money.

Why pay people $250 a week to do nothing, when you could pay $500 and get a full time worker.

'The job you have when you don't have a job'
Posted by Armchair Critic, Friday, 22 June 2018 8:15:07 AM
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Sorry, that last comment was posted in the wrong thread.
Posted by Armchair Critic, Friday, 22 June 2018 8:23:12 AM
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Hi AC,

I think I can follow your logic, that because you were treated badly as teenager, then others should just cop being treated in similar ways, even babies. So Trump was right. And now that he's buckled and changed his mind again, he's right again too.

No, sorry, I just can't join those dots :( The man is a complete mongrel, a slime, an insult to the human race. Dreck.

Cheers,

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Friday, 22 June 2018 10:06:14 AM
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I must say that I am very disappointed that Trump has changed his mind. Extremely disappointed that he allows himself to be pussy whipped in the domestic area, and allows the problem to dictate in the public arena.

The really stupid thing about the whole business is that separation from parents was made law after the commie stirrers kicked up about children being locked up.
Posted by ttbn, Friday, 22 June 2018 10:15:31 AM
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Belly,

You do realise, I hope, that Australia is not part of America, and you don't really need to get your knickers in a knot over Trump. Same applies to you, Joe; you are paranoid about the man, who isn't all that interested in Australia, let alone you.
Posted by ttbn, Friday, 22 June 2018 10:20:04 AM
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Hi Ttbn,

I think you're right - if you're a bastard, you have to be a complete bastard, and Trump certainly to be true to that principle. A total dog turd of a man. But after all, he's still YOUR dog turd, isn't he ? Stick with him, to the bitter end :)

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Friday, 22 June 2018 10:21:58 AM
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Joe,

I worry about you, mate.
Posted by ttbn, Friday, 22 June 2018 10:54:33 AM
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" they're coming to tend to my garden, look after my kids, clean my house and generally do all the shite jobs that the lazy self-indulgent millenials don't want to get their hands dirty with. "

Wow Toni,

Advocating for the importation of kids so that you can get your shite jobs done isn't a good look. You know there are child labour laws right? Even in the land of the great Satan, there are child labour laws. But heh, their only brown kids so...you know,nudge nudge wink wink.

"How many refugees are wevtalking about here ? Five thousand ? "

Struth. There's wrong, there's very wrong, there's monumentally wrong, and then there's Loudmouth.

At last 'count' (an educated guess really) there are almost 2 million so-called dreamers. And they're only a fraction of the total illegal fraternity in the US which could number 40 million.

But most of them will become Democrat voters, so all good.

And besides Toni needs his house cleaned.

Some are concerned about the welfare of the nation but they're all racists, nest pas?
Posted by mhaze, Friday, 22 June 2018 12:45:27 PM
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It wasn't about how I was treated.
It was that 'that cage' looked perfectly suitable and adequate to me.
Do you not understand this wasn't Trump's law to seperate kids from parents, it was existing law.
Trump just cracked down on illegal entries.
The law existed because it is a crime to enter the US and many other countries illegally and you will be arrested. If you bring children to enter a country illegally you will be seperated, and I support the law.

None of this would be happening if people weren't entering illegally and Trump's wall built and the law enforced.

People can then apply to enter 'legally'.

The kids you think are being treated inhumanly often bring large quantities of drugs across the border with them, and I already told you the bill doesn't matter because most arrive unaccompanied.

This whole thing is just a media distraction from Hillarys crimes and the IG report.

And guess what, Hillarys henchmen have all been cornered and are starting to turn on each other to save themselves.
All the cards are going to fall soon.
- Not long now.
Posted by Armchair Critic, Friday, 22 June 2018 12:52:05 PM
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Belly,

"It must be hard work, being a Trump supporter, just as you throw every thing you can think of in defense of his latest insult to humanity, he changes his mind, and you have to do it again!"

Yes it can be hard. The man is way too compassionate.

But we can learn how to handle these things by taking a leaf out of the left's book. You know, just learn to forget anything that doesn't suit the current narrative. So, even though these facilities were built by the Obamessiah, the left just forgets that, pretends it didn't happen and shouts down anyone who reminds them of it. Pictures of the facilities full of kids in 2014? Nah didn't happen!

The problem for those non-leftists is that they have some respect for the truth and themselves and so it becomes a little difficult to wilfully dis-remember the facts. But the leftist does it as a matter of coarse.
Posted by mhaze, Friday, 22 June 2018 12:52:35 PM
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mhaze gee love that! throwing me in the left bucket I mean,you never met a more anti left of reality person in your life than me, Trumps wife is in the news for the jacket she wore to see those criminal kids, think about it, looks sounds and smell like she was sending a message to her silly boring criminal husband to me, this new right using throw away left like it is a stone are showing us they are quite lost for words
Posted by Belly, Friday, 22 June 2018 3:02:50 PM
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While everyone is moaning and groaning about Trump, they are being screwed senseless by their own government in rapidly-failing Australia. Unsustainable mass immigration and growing welfare payments; slave to the UN and climate change crooks; most expensive electricity in the world; permanent unemployment of around 750,000; huge debt; tax cuts for the rich in the billions of dollars - how do you think they are going to make that up, campers? As long as Australia is in the mess it is, it is bloody stupid to even think about Trump except, of course, to wish we had a leader like him.
Posted by ttbn, Friday, 22 June 2018 3:27:39 PM
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Ttbn,

Ooooooh ! Look over there, a unicorn !

Will you blokes look at yourself, for god's sake ? Kids in cages, separated from their parents - even Obama didn't do that all that often, except maybe for bigger 'children'. All over a few thousand, out of 320 million ? What's the matter with you ?

So the T-turn flipped - one minute he's adamant that he can't change the law, the next minute he changes it. So what's next ?

Appalling. Still, only two and a half more years. And please, please, don't mention that equally useless, incompetent and corrupt Clinton.

Neither of the above.

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Friday, 22 June 2018 4:10:54 PM
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//Advocating for the importation of kids so that you can get your shite jobs done isn't a good look.//

No, not the kids, it was the parents who were coming over to do said shite jobs. Try to keep up. Although you claimed the parents were coming to burgle me, which is a bit of a step up from 'they took my jerb'. The difference between right and alt-right, I suppose. You seemed a little bit overly keen to attach sinister motives where none exist (just like you've done now, I suspect you don't do it on purpose), so I thought I'd better correct you on the real reason that illegal immigrants come to America, and point out the significant contributions they make to the US economy.

//Some are concerned about the welfare of the nation//

Well it's fine to be concerned about the welfare of the nation, but in order to persuade anybody you'll also need convince them that Mexicans are damaging the welfare of the nation when the opposite would appear to be the case. And it's not like they're thin on the ground; about 58 million Americans are hispanic. If they are that dreadful and in such large numbers, shouldn't the place pretty much be a smoking crater by now? Especially states like New Mexico and California?

But you know, I've never really seen any alt-righters try to actually make a case that illegal Mexican immigrants are damaging the welfare of the nation. I think they assume that 'well, they's wetbacks ain't they?' is a watertight argument, and what more convincing does anybody need?
Posted by Toni Lavis, Friday, 22 June 2018 5:00:50 PM
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' The Worlds most affluent nation, the home of the free, the United States of America has sunk to a new low in its treatment of refugees. This time it is innocent children who are being separated from their parents, and then caged like animals in a Texan detention centre. '

Yep Paul lies or falls for the lie, Toni supports, they get caught out and continue digging in. Typical leftie behaviour. Any normal person would be so embarassed they fell for lies that they would crawl in a hole and go away. Not lefties. Just change the losing post. Oh thats right its all compassion for the kids Toni. Sure!
Posted by runner, Friday, 22 June 2018 5:39:19 PM
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Hi Runner,

I wonder what Christ would have done ? He would probably have some compassion for bigoted and racist hicks since, after all, 'forgive them, Father, they know not what they do.' But of course, they do.

But would he remind you: 'Suffer the little children, to come unto me' ? Or would he counsel you, that "He who is without sin, let him cast the first stone.'

Can I recommend that you give the Bible a try ? It has some wonderful messages about how to treat the helpless, the blameless, those with little or no power, especially the children, which you might find very helpful.

Then there was (I think ?) St Augustine with his loving comment about British slave children: 'Non Angli, sed Angeli.'

Or perhaps you can quote the Book to prove that Trump is God's messenger ? Or perhaps the lickspittle messenger of the other bloke ?

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Friday, 22 June 2018 5:52:17 PM
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//I wonder what Christ would have done ?//

WWJD?

I daresay he'd have remind people of Matthew 25:31-46. He'd point out that he was pretty unambiguous about 'what you do unto the least my brethren, you do unto me'. He'd remind them of the golden rule, even though it's a no-brainer. And he'd tell them they haven't been following the Messiah, they've just been very naughty boys.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Friday, 22 June 2018 6:12:01 PM
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Hi Toni,

Yes, my favourite lesson (parable) from the Bible is about the Good Samaritan - a person who sees somebody NOT from his own group being beaten and robbed and helps him without hesitation, takes him home, treats his wounds, looks after him and gives him something to tide him over. A man helping someone who is NOT from his own group - you can't find that in the Koran or (as far as I know) in any other religious texts. There are good people in the Bible, selfless people. I'm reminded of the Polish priest who got himself exchanged for a person destined for the Nazi gas chambers - that's the 'Good Samaritan' spirit that makes me very fond of much of the Bible. I think there was a Polish school-teacher who did the same, and a Lutheran pastor too. Good people, heroes in anybody's language.

Then there are those for whom putting little children in cages means nothing. If I was a believer, I would call such creatures 'Godless'. But I'm sustained by the knowledge that there will always be many Good Samaritans in the world, in sharp distinction from the trash like Trump or Clinton or their lickspittles, and always will be.

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Friday, 22 June 2018 6:26:54 PM
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Some part of American Christianity is quite evil,some part of it
is cash driven fraud, much like Trump
Posted by Belly, Friday, 22 June 2018 6:29:06 PM
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Dear Loudmouth,

In Leviticus, third book of the Jewish Bible, we find the following:

Leviticus 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

A little further on:

Leviticus 19:33 And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him. LEV 19:34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

The two verses together make it clear that one should love anyone who lives in your land, whatever ethnicity that person is. I can’t even always love myself. How can I love everyone within the same boundary? What does the word, love, mean? To make sense to me it has to mean something else in the Bible than what I understand by the word, love. I can love my wife and children. Although I like my neighbor very much it would be dishonest for me to say I love her. I am a citizen of two countries, Australia and the United States. Should I love every person in both countries? Should I not love my cousin, Ralph, who is a Canadian citizen? I really cannot fulfill that commandment.
Posted by david f, Friday, 22 June 2018 6:54:21 PM
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Good question Joe I am not really sure Christ would of been involved. I'm sure there were plenty atrocities happening under the Roman empire. As for our personal responsibility to feed the hungry, help the poor I think it's obvious. It is very obvious what He would say about the slaughtering of the unborn. I personally would be happy to help the kids but not encourage illegal immigration. Some Palestinians are as bad as abortionist tying bombs to kids. Why do you ask about Trump being God's messenger? Has anyone said that. At the end of the day he is in power like Obama was in power overseeing kids in cages etc. Personally I think the real lowlifes are those parents that use kids as lawns or sell their kids to traffickers. Personally I would hate to be in Trumps position having to make such difficult decisions especially with a very corrupt deceitful lefist media at your heels.
Posted by runner, Friday, 22 June 2018 7:12:07 PM
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Leftist? Rightist? I don't think any political grouping is more honest than any other political grouping. There is a human tendency for a person to think the group he or she is associated with is somehow better than the one he or she disagrees with.

I think Solzhenitsyn said it well. “If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?”
Posted by david f, Friday, 22 June 2018 7:53:26 PM
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For those doing the "bad Trump" thing who are sure it would be so much better if he had not won.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/entry/hillary-clinton-child-migrants_us_55d4a5c5e4b055a6dab24c2f

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Friday, 22 June 2018 8:33:18 PM
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RObert the fact is Hillary was some of the things Trump said she as, while, no sense lie,ing, I wanted her to win she was evidence some thing is very wrong with American politics and should never have even been a candidate, Democrats helped install Trump, however having done so, we can only hope the mid terms signal a better America is still possible, that country has isolated its self from reality so much some want Opra for gawds sake, to run,Trump is no savior, but he has one startling achievement under his belt, he has made Germany and France, Canada too leaders of the free world
Posted by Belly, Saturday, 23 June 2018 7:51:16 AM
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Hi there BELLY Ol' Son...

It should also be remembered that children and youths are not always the innocents they first appear prima facia, to be? Our experiences in South Vietnam and too Afghanistan, prove beyond doubt, children can be as dangerous as a fully grown and well trained enemy.

I'm not for a moment suggesting these youngsters that are currently the subject of this discussion, are in anyway dangerous - I wouldn't know, nor would anyone else for that matter. As a returned soldier, you NEVER assume 'anything' in war, to do so will surely get you killed!

Children baring a couple of sticks of AN60 with a detonator, will kill you just as effectively as an adult - no difference whatsoever.
Posted by o sung wu, Saturday, 23 June 2018 11:21:51 AM
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Dear O Sung Wu,

I think that you need to read the following link:

http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2018/06/scenes-from-trumps-zero-tolerance-border

You stated that children are not the "innocents" that they
appear. You were talking about violence in a war zone.
The US is not a war zone - yet.

The children here are referred to as "tender-age" children
(including babies) - who were taken away from their parents
as they were carted off and charged with the federal
misdemeanor of entering the US illegally.

Many of these parents had arrived seeking asylum from violence
in a Central American country.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 23 June 2018 11:47:11 AM
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o sung wo old mate you have it by the wrong end, these are children kids, maybe younger than your grand kids, worth noting that magazine cover was a set up!it was of a child who is still with its parents, missing kids? are we all aware privately owned American places that look after these kids get very big dollars to do so, America PTY LTD has lost its sole
Posted by Belly, Saturday, 23 June 2018 1:04:16 PM
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FOXY I'm quite surprised at you. Generally you read other's posts, in order to establish precisely how you'll respond to them. Clearly in my case you didn't. I would've thought my second paragraph pointed that out? Of course the USA is NOT a war zone, nevertheless these young people are being held, because their parents or guardians are under suspicion, for being interlopers.

Sadly, and with respect FOXY, I do believe you see the world through 'rose coloured glasses'. And conversely, I suppose I can be accused of seeing the world through the prism of too much scepticism and mistrust? Somewhere, there's got to be a middle ground I suspect.
Posted by o sung wu, Saturday, 23 June 2018 1:07:20 PM
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Dear O Sung Wu,

Perhaps you need to go back and re-read your own post.
Your meaning is quite clear in what you wrote.
Hence my response to you.

Did you read the link that I provided?

Currently in the US - there is no middle ground.
It's all TRUMPTOPIA.

And that is plainly against - truth, justice, and the
American way!
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 23 June 2018 1:23:32 PM
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cont'd ...

I should have said - TRUMPERICA -
the divided nation created by the - "Trumpites."
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 23 June 2018 3:37:16 PM
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OK FOXY there's no need to be rude about it at all. I know precisely what I wrote. If my syntax was poor, or difficult to understand OK, I'll try better next time, but there's no need to be so forthright, bordering on rudeness. Somehow it doesn't become you.
Posted by o sung wu, Saturday, 23 June 2018 4:39:53 PM
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o sung wo old mate I too thought your post to be imaginative at the least comparing terrorists children with mere baby's who have parents seeking a better life for both parent and child as bomb carrying, no offense but that is how it reads to me.
Posted by Belly, Saturday, 23 June 2018 4:55:10 PM
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G'day Belly...

I understand you're a compassionate man, and I respect you for that. Others seem to think I'm all for keeping kids in cages. I'm clearly not. However, despite their age and mentality, some are more than capable of occasioning harm to others, given the right situation.

A bloke I know well, formerly an AFP member, was sent to Afghanistan with the AFP. They were deployed as Peacekeepers, together with training the local Police in procedural, and anti-corruption strategies. His detachment lasted 3 months. On his return, he took LWP for a period of 6 or 9 months. On this occasion, he volunteered to work over there, with the International Civil Aid Group.

On the day in question, just outside Kabul, the National Capital, while walking alone among, small groups of villager's, as was a common practice. Unarmed and clearly attired in his Civil Aid - Red Crescent Uniform; he was delighted to have small groups of these young children welcoming him. That is until this youngster of around 9 years of age, managed to get within 6 feet of him, whereupon he detonated a suicide bomb, utterly eviscerating the boy completely. My mate survived, and after over 20 + surgical procedures, undertaken in Germany and later on, Australia. He's now confined to a wheelchair for life. Although this event happened over 6 years ago now, he still has another 4 or 5 surgeries yet to go.

Belly for the most part, and in most cultures, children even adolescents, adhere to their parents demands, it's something they do automatically. It's not the child, it's the heinous parents who inculcate these murderous instructions into the minds of these kids! In Vietnam, you'd 'never' allow a kid to approach you, those who try are warned, should they continue, they're shot.

These kids previously confined in US Cages, are likely harmless. However, one should never discount the potential of a child - either from a Law-Enforcement perspective, or a military interpretation. You do so at your own peril?
Posted by o sung wu, Saturday, 23 June 2018 5:55:45 PM
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O Sung Wu,

The stories now coming out of the United States are so
devastating they can only be described as a national
moral stain: five year olds being led away by officers
who say they are giving them a bath, only for their
parents to then be told they won't be seeing them again;
mothers being deported and forced to leave children with
no way of contacting them; hundreds of terrified children
locked with chain-link fence walls, aka cages, while an
official jokingly describes their cries as "an orchestra."

And the best that you can come up with is telling me not
to be "rude?"

Then you go on and tell Belly that " these kids are likely
harmless ... however one should never discount the
potential of a child from a law enforcement perspective
or a military interpretation - you do so at your own peril."

Frankly, I'm speechless.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 23 June 2018 7:07:21 PM
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Another population related international issue. Mexico has 123 Million people most of them want to go to the USA. Not all of them can go- so the USA needs to be more aggressive than those attempting to get in. This is a population war. All wars are bloody. But certain groups within the USA don't care about the US or the rights of the US citizens- these groups are probably traitors.

I can understand "the get rich or die trying" motivation but the west can't help everyone. For certain groups to suggest that they can is irresponsible and is the cause of suffering. I agree that certain companies have previously engaged in questionable conduct and this probably needs to be addressed.

There has been a world economic war (balance of trade/ geopolitical) in progress since the beginning of the Industrial Revolution and probably before. The only thing I've been able to think of that could stop the madness is restricting the free movement of business requirements- labour, capital, resources.

There has already been some movement in this direction.

Scarce resources need alternatives.

Maybe in the future we can stop the boom bust by meeting demand with supply but I'm not sure the human race is that wise.

We can only live in peace if both sides choose it- maybe we need to destroy our opponents. It's our children or theirs.
Posted by Canem Malum, Saturday, 23 June 2018 8:12:56 PM
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The fake stories by the leftist media including time magazine. Oh well the Trump haters are not concerned by the receiving fake media reports. Good to see him fighting back with parents and relatives of those murdered by illegal immigrants. Hopefully enough interested by the truth to expose the hypocritical Hilary lovers.
Posted by runner, Saturday, 23 June 2018 8:56:25 PM
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No concern for those permanently separated from families by illegal immigrants who murdered? Silence is deafening!
Posted by runner, Saturday, 23 June 2018 9:13:42 PM
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By golly FOXY you've been saving that one up for quite awhile - to unleash one of your more barbed responses. Well at least I know where I stand with you.
Posted by o sung wu, Saturday, 23 June 2018 10:11:44 PM
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runner,

I am gobsmacked that you who is such an outspoken
defender of unborn children seems so politicised
when it comes to speaking out about children who are living,
and being kept separated from their parents.
There's something definitely wrong here. A bit
of a double-standard it would appear.

Leave politics out of this. Ignore what Trump's saying -
he's a salesman - and will do whatever it takes to defend
his position.

Time magazine does not lie.

Tens of thousands of people from impoverished, violence
stricken Guatemala, Honduras, and El Salvador and parts
of Mexico have crossed the US border since last year
requesting asylum.

Trump's crackdown has not deterred them, at least -
not yet.

These people don't see going back to where they came
from as an option.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 23 June 2018 10:22:43 PM
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O Sung Wu,

I am quoting back to you, your own words.
Don't push this back onto me. It is of your own
making. Have the decency to admit what you've
stated. I did not put those words into your mouth.
And, where you stand with me? Well, as I said -
you have totally surprised me with your reaction.
However, I would be more than happy to have you
change your mind on this horrible situation.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 23 June 2018 10:30:46 PM
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'Time magazine does not lie' Don't be so gullible Foxy. The girl on the cover was never separated from her mother, left her husband and other 3 children in Honduras and had a husband with a good job. Oh and she paid a smugger 6000 dollars. Time if they had any credibility would of spoken to the father.
Posted by runner, Saturday, 23 June 2018 10:57:23 PM
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runner,

The photograph on the cover of Time magazine is a
defining symbol of the thousands of children
separated from their parents by the Trump administration
at the Mexican border.

Could you kindly give us a reference to the information
that you're claiming about the child.

Thank You.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 23 June 2018 11:11:41 PM
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The thing that unites most self-professed Christians like Runner are their common hatreds and their limitless hypocrisy.

Of course it's only illegal immigrants who murder citizens - never the other way around and we all know Americans never kill each other do they?

It used to be the negroes who were their nominated criminal class but now they must also be victims.

Although prison rates in the US are the world's highest, at 724 people per 100,000 - apparently they must all be illegal immigrants.
Trump accuses them all of being rapists, thieves and murderers despite hiring them as cheap labour on his building sites.
This is the same man who was refused a gambling licence to operate a casino in Australia because of his criminal connections and still acts like a thug.

Although Obama (and Bush) indeed had the legislation in place, neither actually separated children from their families - only Trump - and he only backed down after the escalating backlash and is now typically trying to shift the blame in his usual ridiculous manner.

We've seen this before - immigrants are now political hostages and scapegoats and the New Jews of the 21st century.
To think they once encouraged and pleaded for immigrants to come into their country to work the farms during both World Wars.
Posted by rache, Sunday, 24 June 2018 1:50:08 AM
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Take a breath truly look at the way Trump was handling those children, now tell this once Christian your God thought that was OK that Americas right Christian lobby is in any way in the service of Christ,did your God create us as one humanity? Trump harms Christianity, SOME of his followers by their actions mock it
Posted by Belly, Sunday, 24 June 2018 7:42:02 AM
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Typical Left, blaming the incumbend for the consequences of the failures of his/her idealistic academic predecessors.
Just look at Australia where we still haven't recovered from the Whitlam administration's policies which eventually resulted in the detention centres that are now so hottly disputed by the decsendents of his supporters.
These rose-coloured view hot-heads just can't grasp that bad policy doesn't suddenly vanish with the change of a Government. These policies can take decades before they really impact as is evident by the example above.
Posted by individual, Sunday, 24 June 2018 8:06:31 AM
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>>Could you kindly give us a reference to the information
that you're claiming about the child.<<

For instance,

https://www.lifesitenews.com/pulse/fake-news-iconic-crying-migrant-girl-was-never-separated-from-mother-says-f?utm_source=LifeSiteNews.com&utm_campaign=b2446554c9-Daily%2520Headlines%2520-%2520World_COPY_268&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_12387f0e3e-b2446554c9-402360557
Posted by George, Sunday, 24 June 2018 8:43:09 AM
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Oh I see Foxy you don't mind total dishonesty being used in order to promote open borders. Unbelievably deceitful

https://www.infowars.com/fake-news-crying-child-used-by-time-magazine-cnn-was-never-separated-from-her-mother/
Posted by runner, Sunday, 24 June 2018 9:36:26 AM
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//Could you kindly give us a reference to the information
that you're claiming about the child.//

Or if you'd prefer links that work:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2018/06/22/the-crying-honduran-girl-on-the-cover-of-time-was-not-separated-from-her-mother-father-says/?utm_term=.3034baeb6c11

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2018/06/18/i-wanted-to-stop-her-crying-the-image-of-a-migrant-child-that-broke-a-photographers-heart/?utm_term=.faf23e01a8de

Note that not all of runner's claims are supported (gosh what a surprise), but no, the little girl was not separated from her mother. Time initially misreported that she had been, but swiftly issued a correction at the request of the photographer.

"Time also has added a correction to an online article and gallery that ran Tuesday, before the cover was released: “The original version of this story misstated what happened to the girl in the photo after she [was] taken from the scene. The girl was not carried away screaming by U.S. Border Patrol agents; her mother picked her up and the two were taken away together.”

Moore, the photographer, told The Post in an email that Time corrected the story after he made a request minutes after it was published. He said that the picture “is a straightforward and honest image” showing a “distressed little girl” whose mother was being searched by border officials."

Considering it was the photographer himself requested the correction - and that Time did so without hesitation - it's clear that these cries of 'conspiracy!' are just another alt-right beat-up.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Sunday, 24 June 2018 9:42:33 AM
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//you don't mind total dishonesty being used in order to promote open borders.//

Nobody is proposing open borders, runner, just not separating children from their parents. Now who's being dishonest?

Actually, that accusation of dishonesty may have been a little unfair. Do you actually understand the difference between the two?
Posted by Toni Lavis, Sunday, 24 June 2018 9:45:25 AM
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Note what Trump said about the separation (permanent) of offspring from their families when they were murdered by illegal scum.

You Reds don't care about separated children; you just hate Trump. Pretty pathetic, really, as the man has nothing to do with you and couldn't care less about you and your virtue-signalling.
Posted by ttbn, Sunday, 24 June 2018 10:02:32 AM
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' Nobody is proposing open borders, runner, just not separating children from their parents. Now who's being dishonest?'

come on Tony if time wanted any crediblity now would now acknowledge their hatred of Trump and apologise because he has changed what was happening over Obama's watch. You don't have to act so dumb. Do you really think the Hilary tantrum throwers are really concerned about kids. Just like Triggs their timing says otherwise.
Posted by runner, Sunday, 24 June 2018 10:34:03 AM
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runner,

If I were you I would slowly back away from
this debate. Your credibility is shot and
you're grabbing at straws by bringing other
issues into - like Hilary Clinton. What
you have to deal with is your own conscience.
You a self-proclaimed Christian who's so
adamantly been anti-abortion on this forum -
pro saving the lives of unborn babies - yet
when it comes to live children - your stance
has changed in support of the current US
President. Sorry - don't get it!

BTW - criticisms of Trump and his policies
- doesn't equate to - hatred of the man. Same as
criticism of Israeli policies don't equate to
anti-Semitism. There is a difference.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 24 June 2018 10:54:16 AM
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//if time wanted any crediblity now would now acknowledge their hatred of Trump and apologise because he has changed what was happening over Obama's watch.//

Well for once you've got something right. Trump did indeed change what was happening before he took the reigns.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2018/06/23/trump-obama-administration-separate-families-immigration/728060002/

And now he's changed it back again.

http://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/20/us/politics/trump-immigration-children-executive-order.html

//Do you really think the Hilary tantrum throwers are really concerned about kids.//

I think the vast majority of people are concerned about the mistreatment of children, runner. Even Trump supporters - a lot of them are not monsters, just misguided. Although apparently you are not one of that vast majority people.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Sunday, 24 June 2018 10:59:05 AM
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Sorry to ruin the fun of Trump-haters, but it has just come to light that the 'caged' children photos are a relic from the Obama era in 2014. Not that the Reds will believe it, of course, but it's a nice one for those of us on the sensible Right.
Posted by ttbn, Sunday, 24 June 2018 10:59:12 AM
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There's a big difference in what happened under former
President Obama and what's happening under the current
Trump administration.

President Obama's administration was
about re-uniting children with their parents. President
Trump's administration has a policy to separate
children from their parents. There's a big difference
between the two administrations.

In 2014 there was an influx of unaccompanied minors
who showed up at the border, fleeing violence from
Central America. The Obama administration was trying to
move these children as fast as humanely possible
and connect them with their parents. They succeeded in
80% of cases. These kids were re-united with their
parents and allowed to stay in the US.

Nobody knows who released these old photos. An intelligent
guess will do. However, the truth will always out.
So better luck next time.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 24 June 2018 12:55:41 PM
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FOXY...

I have again re-read my second paragraph that I'd directed to BELLY. For your benefit - I never suggested any of them are dangerous - I wouldn't know, nor would anyone else, Including you FOXY. I then went on to describe; as a returned soldier, you never assume anything. Even children are more than capable of perpetrating harm to others.

Whereas you FOXY, you delight in quoting from various experts, or the 'faked' News Media. And in doing so you're merely quoting a particular author's opinion, nothing else.

I guess you should be forgiven, working as you did in the closeted environment of a library. I'm sure you would've amassed a load of knowledge while there, together with your ten years living in the United States. However does any of this confer, some special mastery or proficiency of world events? Clearly no. Save for access to your passion for research. And there's nothing wrong with that.

Knowledge while essential in our daily lives, is useless unless there's a boat load of inquiry & pragmatism added thereto. Often we acquire pragmatism through our experiences, and its that experience that often endows wisdom. And it's wisdom that helps us to understand and successfully travel through our lives.

Regrettably FOXY, I've come to believe, regardless of your immense knowledge on many matters, you're parochial through your 'Left' learning politics and lack of circumspection on the veracity and quality of much of the data and material that you proffer as being unerringly accurate and correct.

To acquire knowledge in any field, one must study. But to acquire wisdom, one must first observe. A quaint saying from some erudite lady of the last century.

In conclusion, most of your assertions are theory based. You've not had the opportunity to see much of the evil, seething side of mankind, and the heinous atrocities they're capable of doing. I'm sorry FOXY you've allowed your 'Left' leaning politics to colour your judgement once too often I reckon?
Posted by o sung wu, Sunday, 24 June 2018 1:39:02 PM
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Leave politics out of this says Foxy! No wonder you can't be taken seriously Foxy. Where have the protestors been since Bill Clinton legislated for separation of children and parents. I have come to the conclusion you are pig headed not naďve. O sung Su is a bit kinder.
Posted by runner, Sunday, 24 June 2018 2:45:45 PM
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Gentlemen,

You wound me to the core.

Your assumptions about me are absolutely spot on.
The prisms through which you look are after all
so broad.

I don't know how I shall be able to cope without
your guidance. But I shall try
nevertheless in my own pig-headed way. In the
meantime you're under no obligation to read my
opinions - limited as they are. I'm sure you shall
find kindred spirits on this forum with whom you
can share your vast expertise, knowledge and wisdom.
I shall now go and sit in the naughty corner for
a while. Pass me the dunce's hat folks.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 24 June 2018 3:03:50 PM
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o sung wu, Sunday, 24 June 2018 1:39:02 PM- Good reply. Kudos.

Runner, ttbn- Good replies. Playing the issue not the person.

Also some credit to Toni Lavis even though he apparently lost it in the end.

Edward Debono talked about Red Hat: (Emotional thinking) and White Hat: (Factual thinking). Interesting analysing the thread in this context.
Posted by Canem Malum, Sunday, 24 June 2018 3:19:39 PM
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Canem Malum.

This forum needs a -

"Why you lying?" button.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 24 June 2018 4:15:11 PM
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May I ? some things are best unsaid, have read o sung wo, post and the one highlighting and praising it, no! not crawling, Foxy if some thing bad is said about us we hear about it instantly, the good? most never bother to tell it, do not change, ever,some times age is no bringer of wisdom, sometimes it dulls the thought process,leave that there, but you are in the company of the majority of voters in this country, see the unfortunate truth for those damning the left as they brand us is the Australian Labor Party gets more first preference votes than any single party in this county ALWAYS REMEMBER THIS GOVERNMENT IS A TWO PARTY GOVERNMENT
Posted by Belly, Sunday, 24 June 2018 4:26:26 PM
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FOXY...you wounded to the core - hardly! Perhaps some feigned attempt at some minor rebuff to your dignity perhaps, but that's about it?

You play a good game of being the injured party, whereas you're simply marshalling your thoughts to launch yet another theoretical broadside at us. The bumptious souls of the misguided Right. So I guess for the moment it's back to your books, your computer, and other sources of references you employ, in order to establish yet another stinging rejoinder.

FOXY you know, I know, we all know - there's nobody on this exalted Forum, who genuinely wants to see innocent kids 'torn'; (gotta love the emotive language conjured up from the far Left media pack) from their mothers arms and thrown into a cage? One thought I had; perhaps you might like to offer a small family the use of your back bedroom? Just until the ensuring deliberations have been finalised? Just a thought is all.
Posted by o sung wu, Sunday, 24 June 2018 4:46:50 PM
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Dear Belly,

Thank You for your advice and your concern.
But don't worry.
People engage in attacks all the time on this forum.
You and I should be used to that by now.

SteeleRedux advised me some time ago -
to ignore, those who are toxic. It's good advice.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 24 June 2018 7:42:54 PM
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Hi Foxy, been away for a few days, supporting our niece as she and her partner, a pair of 'Kiwis' no less, brought a new little mokopuna, a beautiful baby girl, into the world yesterday, right here in Aussie. I hope this does not offend the sensibility of the forums hard right fraternity, but you never know, what they may call for next.... an Aussie cage for the children of these they see as undesirables.
Posted by Paul1405, Sunday, 24 June 2018 7:52:34 PM
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Dear Paul1405,

Welcome back and Congratulations on your great niece,
your little mokopuna. I imagine that she's just perfect.
And it's lovely to hear such a positive bit of news.

Good to have you posting again.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 24 June 2018 10:28:46 PM
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Hi Foxy, we are over the Moon with our new little lovely girl, mums first at 32. We went up Wednesday night, niece went in Thursday morning for an induction. Baby came Saturday night through a 'c section', not to her birth plan but what has to be, has to be. If all well, they should be going home today.
Family support is so big in Maori culture, Auntie "T" has been there for niece for the whole 9 months, and she wanted her there at the big moment, as her own mum and family is in NZ. Her cousin made a last minute surprise flight from Brisbane to be with her also. Lots of aroha (love) in our family from that side. Been a hectic couple of weeks for us with a tangi (funeral) for cousin back in NZ, then this. Grand nice is due for number 3 here in Sydney next month, keeping us active. Its been raining babies, ha ha, in our family this year.
Posted by Paul1405, Monday, 25 June 2018 7:44:06 AM
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I think Foxy has a beautiful spirit and is capable of seeing the possibilities of something better than what we have. Of course it may not be possible to have something better than what we have, but I hope it is.
Posted by david f, Monday, 25 June 2018 8:29:08 AM
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congratulations Paul unless it is fake news like the rest of the garbage you posted.
Posted by runner, Monday, 25 June 2018 11:04:21 AM
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G'day there PAUL1405...

Congratulations on the birth, and potential birth's that will add to your already large family! The inevitability of living, is of course death. But the birth of a new addition to a family, has the potential to remove much of that dark gloom, that a sudden death can spread over a family. I can only hope this has been the case with yours?
Posted by o sung wu, Monday, 25 June 2018 11:11:44 AM
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Dear David F.,

Thank You for your kind words.

I think that people who disagree on issues often have
much more common ground that it appears. For example
people who argue passionately about political issues with
one another usually share concern about the welfare of
their society and the future of the nation.

Of course we should be able to argue about politics
without getting mad at one another. Avoiding attacks is
a basic aspect of best practices in political discourse.
I've still got a lot to learn in that department. And
you've been a great role model on this forum.
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 25 June 2018 11:25:05 AM
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Dear Paul1405,

I'm so glad that everything has gone so beautifully
for your family. I have a three year old grand-daughter
who's the joy of our lives. She's a very stubborn little
girl (wonder where she gets that from?). She was also
a C-section birth. I know what you mean about families
getting together. We've recently had a death in the family.
My daughter-in-law's father passed away. He's a farmer from
country NSW - and the entire families have rallied round.
He was a wonderful man with a big heart and loved by so many
people both by our families and his community. He made a
difference to people's lives.

Wishing you and yours All The Best.
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 25 June 2018 11:32:05 AM
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Thanks runner and o sung wu. Runner no fake news, all dinky di genuine news here, baby's name is Kyha, made from the letters of the mums brother, his 4 kids names, very inventive I thought. With a Maori middle name

o sung wu, the first cousin we lost in NZ was only 57, heart attack in his sleep. Don't think I'm making this up, he was actually an Anglican Minister, and one hell of a nice bloke, about 2000 at his tangi, that is a lot, see runner I don't hate Christians. With such a big whanau, "T" estimates about 5,000 in her extended family, births and deaths are a common occurrence. Sometimes its close, sometimes its far, but they are all family.
Posted by Paul1405, Monday, 25 June 2018 12:06:41 PM
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PAUL1405...

Paul, 57 is far too young to go, in this world of medical science and good food choices. Still I guess we've got no say on our own longevity, other than to try to live a healthy lifestyle? Even then, we can't control everything in our lives. In my case of got age related dementia, approaching in leaps 'n bounds. Notwithstanding I regularly eat my morning Wheaties in order to stay 'regular', healthy 'n wise. The latter (wise) has mysteriously escaped me for some inexplicable reason?

Some years ago, I attended a sudden death outside a Shopping strip. On arrival, I was confronted with this 'stick thin' male about 35 - 40 yoa, clad in very expensive runners, and just as expensive, athletic shorts and singlet. During the autopsy the Pathologist (who I knew quite well) suddenly muttered 'I'm buggered if I know', meaning he couldn't (immediately) determine the COD.

He continued to probe the cardiac muscle, until he found a small tear in one of the ventricles, thus allowing the blood to escape in small amounts. That didn't really matter when walking, but the additional load he placed on his heart while jogging, was sufficient to cause a myocardial infarction, and therefore his demise. His NOK was utterly devastated and continued to ask why, why - he jogged daily, ate well, tried to keep his stress in check, etc. Believe me I had no answers for her!
Posted by o sung wu, Monday, 25 June 2018 12:34:54 PM
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thanks Paul apologies for cheap shot. Children and especially grandchildren are a very welcome break from what can be a toxic world at times. Personally I would not of dream't that grandchildren could bring such joy.
Posted by runner, Monday, 25 June 2018 1:11:50 PM
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Hi o sung wu and runner,

Runner, that's so true about grandchildren, they bring such joy. We have 11 direct, and I'm not sure how many from nieces and nephews, they are all called mokopuna, which brings them all into what we Europeans call grandchildren status. Similar with nieces and nephews, they become daughters and sons, particularly those where your own brother or sister has passed on, they sort of become your adopted children, regardless of age. Last year when "T"'s sister died, not long after "T" declared "well now we have 3 news daughters and a son, mind you, the youngest is in her late 20's.

O sung wu, lifestyle is a problem, so many ticking time bombs. In the cousins case, he spent a lot of time attending gatherings, which always involves a lot of eating during and after the event of a big meal, during a tangi for example, the kitchen is going all the time. about 6 meals a day, including morning and afternoon tea, plus late night supper, do they lay it on. Although he was not much of a drinker, only one or two, drinking is not permitted at a Marae anyway, he was a smoker, like most, rolled his own, and a large man to boot. Like many Maori, probably not liking doctors and health checks to often. For so many of them 60 is old age, with such a large clan, surprisingly I've met very few above about age 75, a handful at most.
Posted by Paul1405, Tuesday, 26 June 2018 8:21:46 AM
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G'day there Paul1405...

That's sad that most of these big proud men, consider that attaining 60 as old age, and with just a handful making it to 75. To someone who knows 'squat' about Maori culture, I'm surprised to hear that. I don't believe for a moment one can juxtapose the Maori and the Aussie indigenous Aborigine. From what I've read, our Indigenous people are among the oldest races on earth. Whereas the Maori are well developed and very self sufficient in most areas when compared to the Indigenous folk of Australia.

I could be wrong, but I think the NZ Govt. treat the Maori far better than our Govt. treat our aborigines? Despite the amount of money Canberra throws at them.

You may recall I mentioned herein that I was relieving sergeant in the bush for six months or so, thus had a bit to do with the 'blacks'. A term both appropriate and one considered not offensive to the Indigenous people, and one often used when describing each other. And one thing I've learnt, they are extremely proud people, with simply desires, and with most basic needs.

Somehow I don't believe the Maori needs help with the simple needs of life, unlike our blacks. Do you believe it's their self reliance and the fact they have the capacity to sort out their own problems? And in some measure decreases their life expectancy? Sounds absurd I know?
Posted by o sung wu, Tuesday, 26 June 2018 12:36:45 PM
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Dear o sung wu,

Could a factor in the different treatment of the Maori and the Australian Aborigine be the more effective resistance the Maori put up? The result was a peace treaty between two competitive forces. The resistance of the Aborigines was not nearly as effective and resulted in neither a treaty nor recognition.
Posted by david f, Tuesday, 26 June 2018 3:20:58 PM
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http://www.mediaite.com/tv/obama-dhs-sec-jeh-johnson-freely-admits-they-detained-children-families-we-believed-it-was-necessary/

The Obamessiah did it....nothing to see here.

Trump did it...end of the world.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/hypocrite?s=t
Posted by mhaze, Tuesday, 26 June 2018 3:23:03 PM
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actually David f some of the Maori's ate the previous inhabitants of New Zealand. Something a number of Maori's I know are happy to share. Thankfully for our Indigeneous they were treated much better than that.
Posted by runner, Tuesday, 26 June 2018 3:26:06 PM
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I shall repeat that in 2014 there was an influx of
unaccompanied minors who showed up at the border, fleeing
violence from Central America. The Obama Administration
was trying to move these children as fast as humanly
possible and connect them with their parents. 80% of cases
were re-united with their parents and allowed to stay in
the US.

The Trump's administration policy was a policy to separate
children from their parents.

Big difference between the two.
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 26 June 2018 3:35:44 PM
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the world according to Foxy. Must be right.
Posted by runner, Tuesday, 26 June 2018 3:37:59 PM
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Dear runner,

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/northern-advocate/news/article.cfm?c_id=1503450&objectid=11086095 indicates that there were people in NZ before the Maori. One way to get rid of people is to eat them.
Posted by david f, Tuesday, 26 June 2018 3:47:39 PM
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runner,

I'm better looking than Trump.
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 26 June 2018 4:25:11 PM
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sorry Foxy I'm taken.
Posted by runner, Tuesday, 26 June 2018 4:28:57 PM
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btw Foxy off the topic but does your husband share your politcal views/bias? It would be an interesting household to have a Trump supporter and Hilary supporter in one house. Certainly would test allegiances.
Posted by runner, Tuesday, 26 June 2018 4:41:49 PM
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Hi there DAVID F...

It could well be the case you know. The Maori are a tough group of people of the Polynesian persuasion, and if their football prowess is any indicator, they surely must be a very resilient race of people. Whether their inability to back down, first to the British Settlers, and later small groups of enemies, is any sort of yardstick, remains to be seen I submit. Personally I have only the utmost respect for them, as well as our own Indigenous people.
Posted by o sung wu, Tuesday, 26 June 2018 4:48:19 PM
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So Foxy et al,

"The Trump's administration policy was a policy to separate
children from their parents."

So now that the Trump policy is to not separate these kids from their loving parents, I assume that you are in fully and furious agreement with the Trump position given that its the same as what you say was the Obama position.

Or should I repeat the link to the dictionary explanation of hypocrite?
Posted by mhaze, Tuesday, 26 June 2018 4:55:52 PM
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mhaze,

Not at all.

I'm sure that you're aware of the meaning of that
word. But if it makes you feel any better - you
go right ahead Sunshine.
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 26 June 2018 8:00:57 PM
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Taken from an American's comment on the web:

"When you lose your keys - you panic.
When you lose your wallet/purse - you panic.
Now imagine having your child/children forcibly
taken and they won't tell you where they are.
This is not the America I know. It is a disgraceful
example of bigotry and incompetence."

We should all be embarrassed for the USA, And deeply
ashamed of their President Donald Trump.
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 26 June 2018 8:38:28 PM
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Hi o sung wu and david f,

The events leading up to the 'Treaty of Waitangi' and the subsequent actions by all parties is interesting, but complex. The British representative at the time Lieutenant-Governor William Hobson, his aid James Freeman, the official British resident James Busby and the missionaries Henry Williams and his son Edward, the missionaries translated the treaty into Maori, which most chiefs could read, only a few could read English. Whilst Busy acted as an adviser to Hobson, and also helped with the wording of the English version, all their behaviour was totally honourable, in my opinion, but today some do dispute that. Hobson was obviously instructed to get the best deal for the British that was possible. Unfortunate for Hobson he had no experience in drafting a treaty of any sorts, all he had with him were some odd European documents to use as a guide. James Busby, who had a very good understanding of the Maori, as did the two missionaries, were pivotal in the deliberations. After the first draft, Busby advised Hobson it would be unacceptable to the chiefs, and advised several changes, which Hobson included.

The argument today comes down to two simple words, the English version contains the word "sovereignty" (article 1), in the Maori version the word translates to "governance". To cede sovereignty is different to bestowing governance, as most chiefs believed they were doing. The British believed the Maori would be subservient to them, with Queen Victoria becoming the overall paramount chief. The chiefs believed they retained sovereignty, but received British governance (protection) in return, for giving the British exclusive land purchasing rights, which incidentally excluded the French, and all others, particularly the Americans which were becoming a growing threat to British interests in the Pacific. There was concerned about French intervention/influence at the time in New Zealand, so close to Australia. There was a possibility that the South Island could have become a French possession.
The lesson to be learnt is if you want a treaty be careful of the wording, it could come back to bite you.

http://nzhistory.govt.nz/politics/treaty/read-the-treaty/english-text
Posted by Paul1405, Wednesday, 27 June 2018 6:19:42 AM
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So Foxy,

That's a yes? You now fully support Trump's policy re illegals immigrants?
Posted by mhaze, Wednesday, 27 June 2018 7:35:06 AM
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G'day PAUL1405...

What a fascinating history NZ has, I had no idea of the impetus of the 'Treaty of Waitangi' of 1840. In comparison it puts, Australia's effort of reconciliation into a poor light eh?
Posted by o sung wu, Wednesday, 27 June 2018 9:33:11 AM
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' We should all be embarrassed for the USA, And deeply
ashamed of their President Donald Trump.'

someone who has told me for over a decade that we should not judge now tells me that we should be ashamed of President Donald Trump. Seems like your nastiness can't always be concealed Foxy. I am thrilled of many of the courageous decisions that Donald Trump has made. Much more ashamed of Obama's lack of backbone and willingness to sell out the USA.
Posted by runner, Wednesday, 27 June 2018 10:34:57 AM
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mhaze,

What policy are you talking about?

I'm not sure that even Mr Trump knows what he
does or doesn't support. He goes with whatever
he thinks is popular or in fashion.

runner,

The quote given earlier was from an American citizen
on his President's actions. And as a citizen - they
have a right to hold an opinion on what is happening
in their country. That does not equate to "nastiness."
But your calling it "nasty" does.
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 27 June 2018 11:20:07 AM
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cont'd ...

As for your being told not to judge people?
Doesn't you religion tell you the same thing?
And how's that working for you?
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 27 June 2018 11:22:26 AM
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Yes Foxy we all understand your dilemma. Trump's policy on illegal immigrants is now precisely the same as Obama's.

That creates a problem for those who want to throw tantrums about the current policy but couldn't in a million years criticise anything Obama did.

Solution...obfuscate and play dumb. Right up your alley
Posted by mhaze, Wednesday, 27 June 2018 11:35:16 AM
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mhaze,

Hey, I haven't obfuscated in weeks.

Makes you go blind.

BTW: -

The trick to being smart is knowing
when to play dumb.
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 27 June 2018 1:19:45 PM
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Hi there MHAZE...

Be assured my friend our FOXY, apart from being probably one of the most valued contributors on this Forum, isn't dumb. She's among the most adroit of all the 'Posters' herein, and her competency both with the English language and contemporary History, wants for nothing. And that in no way diminishes her extraordinary research skills. Thus a case of 'scriptura emptor' or similar - I dunno, I'm not smart enough to know the Latin?
Posted by o sung wu, Wednesday, 27 June 2018 2:47:03 PM
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Dear O Sung Wu,

Thank You for your kind words.

I don't deserve them.

And, I shall try to earn them in my future inter-actions.

Although I can't promise that I'll always succeed.
I blame it on my part-Russian temperament - which I
inherited from Gran. At least that's my excuse when I
say hurtful things that I shouldn't. My apologies if
I hurt your feelings recently. I really didn't mean to do it.
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 27 June 2018 3:17:41 PM
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Foxy wrote: "They [the Supreme Court]ordered the baker to undergo anti-discrimination training."

o sung wu wrote: "And that in no way diminishes her [Foxy's] extraordinary research skills."

I find it difficult to reconcile those two posts.

BTW I didn't call her dumb...I said she played dumb in order to avoid having to admit that which she'd prefer wasn't true. Sometimes plays dumb.Sometimes plays the 'damsel in distress' card. Usually obfuscates when being straight forward would be detrimental to her untenable opinions.
Posted by mhaze, Wednesday, 27 June 2018 3:34:46 PM
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Children were separated from their parents in America in 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017. Now in 2018 suddenly the regressives are broken hearted. You can't help but to see how pitiful (the regressives not children) are. Talk about tantrum throwers who obviously never got a whack as spoilt kids!
Posted by runner, Wednesday, 27 June 2018 3:37:07 PM
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mhaze,

You're really grabbing at straws now.
You fail to explain the full context of what
was said and the explanations offered at that
time. But it must have struck a chord as you're
still carrying it around with you. Chill out and move on.
Stress is not good for you. As for what you think of me?
I've lived without your good opinion all these years, I dare
say I shall have to try continue to do so, difficult as it
may be. (smile).
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 27 June 2018 3:47:00 PM
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Hi FOXY...Just the truth FOXY, just the truth!
Posted by o sung wu, Wednesday, 27 June 2018 3:55:34 PM
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mhaze the tactics for decades by regressives is to repeat a lie often enough thinking it makes it true. Within a generation we have unis filled with parrots who have not been taught to think and even expelled if they dare question lies. A couple of the modern day lies

You are what you think you are (yeah right!)
I was born 'gay' (even know I lived 30 years in a marriage having kids)
man made gw is real

I could go on but the lies are so entrenched and unscientific that it makes no difference to the brainwashed.
Posted by runner, Wednesday, 27 June 2018 4:22:52 PM
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runner,

You're so entertaining.

But don't be jealous of what others have.
Count your own blessings. After all Jesus
loves you - even though the rest of us
think you're an ...

BTW: - Just so that you know -
there is no federal law mandating children
and parents be separated at the border:
a policy resulting in that outcome was
enacted in May 2018.
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 27 June 2018 4:37:26 PM
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'BTW: - Just so that you know -
there is no federal law mandating children
and parents be separated at the border:
a policy resulting in that outcome was
enacted in May 2018.'

Oh thats why the tantrum throwers needed to get photos from 2014 and 2016 Foxy. Oh well as I said tell the lie often enough Foxy. Plenty of people like yourself love to console yourself with a narrative of hatred towards Trump. Truth is the loser but be sure it will win out in the end.
Posted by runner, Wednesday, 27 June 2018 4:54:13 PM
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"You fail to explain the full context of what
was said and the explanations offered at that
time."

OK here's the full context...you made up a claim that was utterly wrong but which you thought supported your opinion. I pointed out that the claim was utterly wrong. You went utterly silent on your made-up 'fact'. Later after you'd asserted that I was making unsupported claims I, (1) refuted that made-up claim and (2) asked you to offer some evidence for your original made-up 'fact'. You then admitted that your made-up claim that my facts were wrong was instead wrong and finally announced that you didn't want to talk about it any more.

Is that enough context?

"But it must have struck a chord as you're
still carrying it around with you. "

Not exactly, but I see it as evidence of your modus operandi and of your propensity toward dishonesty when the facts of the matter don't gel with your view of the facts. So yes I probably will continue to mention it to remind me, you and others who might be interested that much of what yu say should be taken with quite a few grains of salt.
Posted by mhaze, Wednesday, 27 June 2018 5:58:53 PM
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Dear mhaze,

You sanctimonious bloody drop kick. You wouldn't know a fact if it bit you on the bloody arse.

To even comtemplate saying Trump's policies are the same as Obama's singles you out as a spectacularly unqualified to make any assessment of how truthful any other person might or might not be.

This is part of what Elizabeth Warren wrote after visiting the concentration camp in Texas on Sunday:

Quote:

Then an employee described what we were about to see. "They have separate pods. I'll call them pods. I don't really know how they name them." Clearly they had gotten the memo not to call them what they are: cages. Every question I asked them had a complicated answer that led to two more questions – even the simple question about how long people were held there. "Nobody is here longer than 24 hours." "Well, maybe 24-48 hours." "72 hours max." And "no children are separated out." "Well, except older children."

The warehouse is enormous, with a solid concrete floor and a high roof. It is filled with cages. Cages for men. Cages for women. Cages for mamas with babies. Cages for girls. Cages for boys.

The stench – body odor and fear – hits the second the door is opened. The first cages are full of men. The chain link is about 12-15 feet high, and the men are tightly packed. I don't think they could all lie down at the same time. There's a toilet at the back of the cage behind a half-wall, but no place to shower or wash up. One man kept shouting, "A shower, please. Just a shower."

Cont...
Posted by SteeleRedux, Wednesday, 27 June 2018 6:45:38 PM
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Cont..

I asked the men held in cage after cage where they were from. Nearly all of them were from El Salvador, Guatemala, or Honduras.

Then I asked them how long they had been there – and the answers were all over the map, from a few days to nearly two weeks (72 hours max?). The CBP agents rushed to correct the detained men, claiming that their answers couldn't be right. My immigration specialist on the trip who speaks fluent Spanish made sure the men understood that the question was, "How long have you been in the building?" Their answers didn't change.

Cage after cage. Same questions, same answers.

Next we came into the area where the children were held. These cages were bigger with far more people. In the center of the cage, there's a freestanding guard tower probably a story or story-and-a-half taller to look down over the children. The girls are held separately in their own large cage. The children told us that they had come to the United States with family and didn't know where they had been taken. Eleven years old. Twelve. Locked in a cage with strangers. Many hadn't talked to their mothers or fathers. They didn't know where they were or what would happen to them next.

The children were quiet. Early afternoon, and they just sat. Some were on thin mats with foil blankets pulled over their heads. They had nothing – no books, no toys, no games. They looked shell shocked.

End quote
https://www.facebook.com/ElizabethWarren/posts/10155822214623687

Of course any fair minded person, one who wasn't busy shining the boots of their Commander in Chief like yourself, would rightly be utterly ashamed of what was being done in their name.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Wednesday, 27 June 2018 6:46:24 PM
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SteeleRedux,
If you could, how would you address this problem ?
Posted by individual, Wednesday, 27 June 2018 7:21:18 PM
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mhaze,

"A lion is fierce
His teeth can pierce
The skin of a postman's knee
It serves him right
That because of his bite
He gets no letters you see."

You left out the part where I provided you with several
links that should have explained the reason for my stance
to you at that time. I felt there was no need for any
further dialogue. The links were self-explanatory.
I also felt that I can't be held responsible for how you
interpreted the links.

Anyway, that was then, this is now.

My "modus operandi" has always been understatement and that
just doesn't always work on this forum as I'm finding out
which is unfortunate because it forces me to react - which
I don't really enjoy doing.

As for the "grain of salt?"

I take everything with a grain of salt.
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 27 June 2018 8:12:43 PM
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Hi Paul,

Just came back from NZ, my dad's funeral up at Kaitaia, in the Dally cemetery there. On the Treaty of Waitangi, there is no reference there to internal governance but certainly to the transfer of political sovereignty to the British Crown - AND there is no reference in the Treaty to land tenure or any State/Crown rights to interfere in land ownership. It's very interesting that in two of the books of Professor Ian Kawharu - on Maori Land Tenure and the Treaty of Waitangi -there is little or no association, cross-over, between the two. From the outset, not just Maori land-use was recognised by the British, but land ownership as well. The rip-offs and thefts came later.

As i understand it, in the Treaty of Waitangi, how the various Maori groups organised themselves and managed their own affairs was not challenged, but if they did want to sell their land, only the new administration was authorised to handle any sales. Of course, by 1840, a hell of a lot of changes had already occurred, especially during the Wars which the Treaty was intended to bring to a close. But it's striking, in the context of the current tepid discussions about Indigenous sovereignty here, how the two issues of political sovereignty and relationship to land manage to get confused and tangled. Fools seem to be happy to rush in where angels would fear to tread.

Cheers,

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Wednesday, 27 June 2018 8:13:46 PM
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Hi Joe,
My sincere condolences at the loss of your Dad.

The Treaty of Waitangi was partially in response to the Musket Wars which the likes of chief Hongi Hika were prosecuting to the max against other iwi in the early part of the 19th Century. In 1835 over 50 chiefs from the Confederation of United Tribes signed the 'Deceleration of Independence of New Zealand', in effect the United Tribes established an independent country in the north with its own flag, and laws based on the principle of 'utu'. James Busby the British Resident who arrived in 1833, fostered the independent concept, more for commercial reasons, rather than any nationalistic notions. In 1830 the first NZ built trading ship 'The Sir George Murray' had been confiscated along with its cargo of trade goods in Sydney for failing to fly a recognized flag. The ship and cargo were auctioned off, but later the ship was granted a temporary licence to trade, until a permanent arrangement could be found. The Maori chiefs Patuone and Taonui as part owners of the venture, along with several Europeans, had accompanied the ship with the view to establishing trading links with NSW. But put simply the British view was, no country, no trade.

Patuone was a leading advocate for a treaty, along with others, having written to the British Monarch in 1831 requesting British protection of their sovereignty "from those that would take away their land, and act troublesome or vicious towards them", both Maori and European. King William IV however dismissed the request, saying he was sorry, but believed the troubles had passed.

The big land grab by the Pakeha came much later with the 'Settlement Act' in 1863. Land confiscation was supposedly retribution for those tribes that had engaged in rebellion (Maori Wars) against the British authority, but it soon included other tribes that had been pro British, or neutral.
Posted by Paul1405, Thursday, 28 June 2018 6:51:04 AM
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Joe, just as a side, the New Zealand Government has made financial offers of compensation to the various Iwi's, under the Treaty settlements, its well over $1 billion.
Posted by Paul1405, Thursday, 28 June 2018 7:15:18 AM
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Does anyone have info if there was a kind of treaty with the supposedly original inhabitants of New Zealand from before the Maori ? I was told quite often that the Maoris aren't the aboriginal inhabitants.
Posted by individual, Thursday, 28 June 2018 7:42:05 AM
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Thanks, Paul, that's fascinating - my brother has a piece of land up near Mangonui which was originally land belonging to one tribe which was wiped out in an epidemic before 1800; the Rarawa took it over, then had it invaded by Ngapuhi who eventually sold it to the government. But recently both Rarawa and Ngapuhi were compensated for it (i.e. double-payment), and my brother's Maori daughters are a bit crooked on him for buying it (triple-payment). I wonder how many times someone can be paid for something they sell ? Once, I would have thought, but I'm not very PC these days.

Individual, what's your point ? Every bit of land in the world with people on it has probably been invaded many times over, but whoever is there now is recognised as the owners, legitimate holders. Get used to it. In any case, the Moriori - I presume that's who you were talking about - were the original occupants of the Chatham Islands, and their ancestors came from around the Bay of Plenty and the Waikato (check out Angela Ballara's book "Iwi") - they're not the original owners of all of NZ as the myth asserts, but probably originally a clan of one of those groups.

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Thursday, 28 June 2018 10:27:12 AM
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but whoever is there now is recognised as the owners, legitimate holders
Loudmouth,
I agree with that,but why then do so many Aus, NZ, Papua etc keep rewinding the tradititonal owner argument & demand ongoing compensation ?
Posted by individual, Thursday, 28 June 2018 10:35:16 AM
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Individual,

You make the common assumption that land was taken from Indigenous people here by the act of settlement/invasion/whatev. No. From the outset, Philip recognised the rights of Aboriginal people to use the land as they always had done. Here in SA, that right was implicit from before settlement/inv/whatev, and made explicit in the Pastoral Act of 1850, with a specific clause written into every pastoral lease.

It is still the law: the rights of Indigenous people in SA to use the land as they always had done, except that now people have to apply to an Aboriginal Committee (in fact, I have a suspicion that almost no-one has applied, since no-one hunts [except by rifle and Toyota as Albert Namatjira used to do back in the thirties] or gathered except maybe up in the North-West).

But we do live in Enlightened times, Individual, in which it is not seen as proper to seize land from people and drive them off one way or the other. Brute force is not always the way. Please try to keep up with the Enlightenment and the rights that it confers on everybody :)

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Thursday, 28 June 2018 11:11:34 AM
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Dear Joe (Loudmouth),

My Deepest Sympathy on the loss of your father.

"Eternal Rest grant to him, O Lord
And let perpetual light shine on him
May he rest in peace.
Amen."

It is always difficult to lose a parent.
They are so much a part of our lives.
Stay strong and know that he's in a better place.
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 28 June 2018 11:27:44 AM
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Hi there LOUDMOUTH...

Dear Joe...please accept my most profound condolences for the recent passing of your Dad in NZ. Take care old mate.
Posted by o sung wu, Thursday, 28 June 2018 12:23:53 PM
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Dear Foxy & O Sung Wu,

Thank you so much for your kind words. He was 94, and if I reach that age, I'd think I'd had a good run, all things considered. But sadly, his last hours were quite dreadful, so he's at peace now.

Thank you again, my friends :)

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Thursday, 28 June 2018 1:35:30 PM
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yes me too loudmouth thinking of you, Paul your thread got us talking, as is always the case about many things, we share many concerns and in the end in my view that is a good thing
Posted by Belly, Thursday, 28 June 2018 4:15:53 PM
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Thanks, Belly. Yeah, I often enjoy how a thread goes off-topic - this one goes from the inhumane policies of the narcissist Trump to Maori wars and trade. I hope we keep it up, it's a hell of a way to learn :)

Cheers,

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Thursday, 28 June 2018 4:36:31 PM
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SR,

Dear oh dear. Logic is in short supply with this one.

To prove to me that I'm wrong to think that Trump's policy on detaining illegals is the same as Obama's you give me a long commentary by Fauxcahontas about her trip to the said detention facilities. Not a passing attempt to show that the things are different now to then. Somehow, laughingly, that makes sense to you.

One of the places Fauxcahontas visited on her big day out was the Port Isabel facility....

"In early 2010, detainees at the Port Isabel facility went on staggered hunger strikes for two months to protest what they claimed was a lack of medical care and legal help. That same year, a study released by the advocacy group Texas Appleseed alleged serious problems with mental health care in Port Isabel and other detention centers, and a former security guard published a memoir that detailed still more abuses, including guards raping female detainees.....
Jennifer Harbury, an immigration lawyer based in the Rio Grande Valley who has clients in the detention center, said detainees are not allowed to touch each other because some of them have been charged with violent crimes. There are no private bathrooms, or even dividers between individual toilets, she said, and meals are often baloney and cheese sandwiches with fruit punch."

All the cages that so distress you were already in place by then.

2010. You might need Foxy's renowned research skills to work out who was president then.
Posted by mhaze, Friday, 29 June 2018 12:45:42 PM
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Hi Mhaze,

I think you have me mixed up with someone else: I've never written about Elizabeth Warren. But your last quote bears comment: are you suggesting that, because she is, as you suggest, a fake Indian, therefore whatever she writes is fake too ? My limited understanding is that, under Obama, 'children' over there age of, say, fourteen, were indeed separated from their parents (for how long, I don't know) and that this equates to, or is worse than, Drumpf's separation of babies from their parents ? Perhaps you're right - teenagers may often feel as devastated by such inhumane actions as babies do and if so, then yes, Obama's policies were as vile and inhumane as that turd, Drumpf's.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Cheers,

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Friday, 29 June 2018 2:11:40 PM
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Loudmouth wrote:
"I think you have me mixed up with someone else"

My post was addressed to SteeleRedux(SR). So no confusion on my part. Have you just outed yourself as being one and the same with SR? Otherwise I can't understand how you possibly made this error.

"are you suggesting that, because she is, as you suggest, a fake Indian, therefore whatever she writes is fake too ?"

No. There's nothing in my post to suggest that. Nor do I suggest that what she wrote about the detention camps was wrong. I was simply pointing out to SR (and Foxy) that the camps Fauxcahontas was complaining about existed earlier and were accused of being hell holes during the regime of Obama.
Posted by mhaze, Friday, 29 June 2018 2:29:22 PM
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Mhaze,

Me and SR being one and the same ? God forbid ! I'm sure he/she would be appalled at such a dreadful accusation. Yeah, my eyes play up at times.

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Friday, 29 June 2018 3:11:38 PM
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All people have to do is Google the topic.

There's plenty on the web that explain the differences
between what happened under the Bush and Obama
administrations compared to what's happening under the
current President's administration. You don't need to
have extra-ordinary research skills to get to the facts.
However trying to cover up one's weaknesses with
compensatory strategies - don't really help in the long term.
Someone is sure to expose the lies. As Mr Trump's administrators
are beginning to learn.

http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2018/jun/19/matt-schlapp/no-donald-trumps-separation-immigrant-families-was/
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 29 June 2018 3:51:10 PM
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IF we had to answer what single thing bought about the rise of the right, ultra that is, in America and even here it would in my view be fear, fear of change migration, refugees but change, racism has many names,but as we who are appalled by that must sit and watch as it grows even more, the EU will see much more of it, BRITAIN is leaving the EU in the end over it in the end it remains my view faith not race that divides us
Posted by Belly, Friday, 29 June 2018 4:05:00 PM
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Foxy,

Clearly following the logic of an argument is (deliberately?) problematic for you so let me try to make it simpler for you.

Indubitably Trump's earlier policy was different to Obama's. But since the Executive Order cancelling separation, his policy is the same as Obama's (and the same as Bush's, and Clinton's and Hillary's for that matter).

So the issue becomes whether you (and SR) now support the CURRENT Trump policy or do you condemn it AND the Obama policy.

Now I know that this is an unthinkable problem for you and your like since condemning anything done by the Obamessiah is untenable.

So here are the options:
* condemn Trump and Obama.
* agree that Trump's policy, like Obama's, is acceptable.
* obfuscate, play dumb and avoid the issue.

pretty sure I know which way our Foxy will jump.

BTW how do you feel about women being raped while in detention under Obama's rules? IT'll be fun to see how you excuse Obama for that.
Posted by mhaze, Friday, 29 June 2018 6:36:40 PM
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mhaze,

Inter-acting with you is like playing chess with a pigeon.
He knocks over the pieces, craps all over the board, then
flies and joins his flock and declares victory.

All you have to do is Google the issues on the web and you'd
find out that Obama in 2014 took a mostly punitive approach
to border crossers. Whereas Trump in 2018 took an entirely
punitive one. Obama was reacting partly to circumstances.
Trump was reacting soley to his own desires.

Both Presidents prosecuted many border crossers but Trump's
"zero tolerance" policy created family separation. Trump made
separating families a matter of standard practice. Obama did
not.

However, it's not really about what Obama or Trump did -
(even though Trump is blaming everything on everyone else as
he always does - including the Democrats). What matters now
is the question - what will Trump be allowed to do in the
future?

If you need more information - Google the issues for yourself.
It's not all that difficult.
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 29 June 2018 7:11:02 PM
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keep up with the Enlightenment
Loudmouth,
Taken on board.
Posted by individual, Friday, 29 June 2018 8:09:01 PM
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Dear Foxy,

Unfortunately, you can expect mhaze to cling to that tidbit for the rest of his OLO life. You see, mhaze's position on just about every topic is so vacuous that he needs to cling to every little slip up that he perceives his greatest opponents to have made.

Note the word 'greatest' there. He doesn't do this for people whom he believes he can discredit the arguments of easily. Here's the little gem he though (after many, many years) he thought he finally had from me. Until, that is, it blew up in his face spectacularly:

mhaze: "… people who think that the nuclear family only came to prominence in Australia around 1940 monumentally fail that test” (http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=7880#243942)

AJ: “I have now quadruple-checked my source, and before the 1940s, extended families were a small majority.”

mhaze: “So far you've offered no evidence other than a link to advertisement for a book which I found at Mitchell and which said nothing of the sort of what you claimed.”

AJ: “The information to which I refer starts at page 168 of the book. Here, I’ve uploaded a scan for you:

http://i.imgur.com/2Eav0GI.jpg”

mhaze: “No, no. Previously you told me that the book had several pages of information that supported your assertions.”

AJ: “Firstly, no I didn't. That was with regards to something else: … Secondly, since when did, ‘only one page’, mean the same as, “... nothing of the sort of what you claimed”?”

The man is demonstrably a liar. Just ignore what he says.
Posted by AJ Philips, Friday, 29 June 2018 11:58:09 PM
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I note that runner cites Alex Jones at Infowars as a source for his allegations.

Jones claimed that the Sandy Hook massacre was a false-flag operation using child actors and will soon be in court defending himself.

He also claimed (among other things) that the US government was behind the Oklahoma bombing, that the moon landings were faked and that Hillary Clinton participated in the sexual abuse, murder and cannibalism of children as part of his promotion of the nonsensical Pizzagate conspiracy.

He's an anti-vaxxer, an anti-Semite, a Chemtrails believer, a mysogynist and claims that Obama (among many other things) controlled the weather to create and direct cyclones as weapons.

He's a ranting lunatic and that alone explains the way that some followers think and the things they want to believe, in spite of all contrary evidence and plain old common sense.
Posted by rache, Saturday, 30 June 2018 1:29:18 AM
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mhaze- Credit for sticking to the point. Kudos.
Posted by Canem Malum, Saturday, 30 June 2018 1:40:01 AM
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The Trump administration has received a slap in the face over its separation of children policy. US District Court Judge Dana Sabraw has ordered federal officials to stop detaining parents apart from their minor children, absent a determination the parent is unfit or the parent declines reunification; reunify all parents with their minor children who are under the age of 5 within 14 days and reunify all parents with their minor children age 5 and older within 30 days.
The order also mandates that officials provide parents contact with their children by phone within 10 days, if the parent is not already in contact with his or her child.

Seventeen states have now filed a complaint against the Federal Government challenging the family separation practice.
Posted by Paul1405, Saturday, 30 June 2018 6:17:25 AM
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Dear mhaze,

You really are a dreadful little malcontent playing as loose with the truth as you think you might get away with.

Not on this occasion my friend.

The quote you so triumphantly produced for us came from this article;

http://www.texastribune.org/2018/06/27/port-isabel-detention-center-long-history-problems-immigrants-reunification/

The hunger strike you related was indeed in Obama's first year of office but the problem had been created under Bush.

“George H.W. Bush had decided to make some changes to Ronald Reagan’s immigration policies — particularly for people fleeing civil wars in El Salvador and Guatemala.
Under the new rules, implemented by late 1988, asylum applicants from those countries could no longer get work permits or travel in the United States, as the Reagan administration had briefly allowed them to do. They would have to stay in the district where they sought asylum and if their claim was denied, they’d be locked up.
The facility at Port Isabel — which soon came to be known as “El Corralón,” or “the big corral” — was the natural choice for a detention center, and the government quickly made plans to expand its capacity from 425 to several thousand.”

Obama did not have a policy of separating families. Rather he had been faced with the issue of thousands of unaccompanied minors. Trump decided as a punitive action to separate complete families as a default process leading to the protests and him ultimately having to back down.

I hold foxy's research skill far above yours and without the perchance of deliberately slanting what those sources are revealing.

Bloody terrible.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Saturday, 30 June 2018 9:48:00 AM
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Perchance?

Sorry.

Predilection.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Saturday, 30 June 2018 10:23:34 AM
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Dear AJ, Rache, SteeleRedux, and Paul1405,

Kudos to all of you for bringing out the facts
of this issue.

Well done.

Canem Malum,

You can miss a lot by sticking to the point.
Especially if your point is wrong.
No kudos.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 30 June 2018 11:26:05 AM
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I know there's this belief among many here that Obama was a saint in regards to the illegals (well more of a hope than a belief since its isn't based on the actual facts). But trying to exonerate the Obamessiah while condemning Trump is is loosing cause, since it is demonstrably true that most of Trump's policies are unchanged from those of his predecessor.

Unlikely the Foxys and SRs of this world, whose policy is to find some hack who'll tell them what they want to hear, I'll give a hint as to how to real research is done using original sources...

For example:

* "Senator Dianne Feinstein [she's a Democrat] claimed that she "didn't really know enough" about the "mistreatment" of illegal immigrants to pay attention to it during the eight years that Barack Obama was in office".

* "Honduran woman and her child sue Obama administration over 'inhumane' detention"....
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2016/08/26/honduran-woman-and-her-child-sue-obama-administration-over-inhumane-detention.html
"a border agent denied Rodriguez food and told her that it was futile of her to have entered the United States, suggesting that she would face worse persecution than she had in Honduras. Additionally, the suit claims that officials withheld asthma medication for Angelo".
This all happened in 2015 but I'm sure SR will tell us its all Bush's fault or something.

Many of you will have to not read this report on conditions in 2016 because you don't want it to be true....
* http://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/sites/default/files/litigation_documents/doe_v_johnson_former_detainees_describe_horrific_conditions_in_cbp_detention.pdf and

http://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/litigation/challenging-unconstitutional-conditions-cbp-detention-facilities

* "A DHS official told NBC News that the practice of dividing parents and kids predates the Trump presidency. “DHS has continued a long-standing policy by the previous administration,” said the official, listing risk to the child and criminal prosecution of the parent as among the reasons for separation."

repeat..."predates the Trump presidency". But that can't be true because ....STFU.

/cont
Posted by mhaze, Saturday, 30 June 2018 12:39:41 PM
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/cont

* "More than 1,000 children were separated between October 2016 and September 2017, and 703 were separated between October 2017 and February 2018, according to DHS." October 2016!! Who was in power then?

* "The teen fled an abusive father and violence fueled by drug cartels to seek asylum in the United States in 2015....he was transferred to Shenandoah in April 2016 and diagnosed ...with three mental disorders, including depression. The lawsuit alleged the teen received no further significant mental health treatment."

* "Virginia’s governor ordered state officials Thursday to investigate abuse claims by children at an immigration detention facility who said they were beaten while handcuffed and locked up for long periods in solitary confinement, left nude and shivering in concrete cells.....The incidents described in the lawsuit occurred from 2015 to 2018".

SR wrote:"Obama did not have a policy of separating families."
Dept of Homeland Security wrote: "As a matter of procedure and policy, border agents routinely separate family members, including intentionally, as punishment—or “consequences”-through what DHS calls its Consequence Delivery System". Report dated 10 January 2017.

Poor SR, if only the truth would match with the way he wants the world to be.
Posted by mhaze, Saturday, 30 June 2018 12:39:45 PM
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mhaze,

Talking about the truth matching facts: Here's another
attempt at explanation for you:

In defending its "Zero tolerance" border policy that has
caused the separation of families the Trump administration
has argued that the Obama and Bush administrations did this
too. THAT IS MISLEADING. Experts say there were SOME separations
under previous administrations, but NO blanket policy to
prosecute parents, and therefore, separate them from their
children.

Bush and Obama did NOT have policies that resulted in the
MASS separations of parents and children like we're seeing
under the current administration stated Sarah Pierce, a
policy analyst with the Migration Policy Institute.

There's further explanations in the following link for
those interested in the truth: Obviously that excludes you
mhaze:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2018/06/23/trump-obama-administration-separate-families-immigration/728060002/
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 30 June 2018 2:25:28 PM
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Every journey starts with a single step.

Finally we get someone to acknowledge that "there were SOME separations under previous administrations". That being my original point.

Trump's decision to detain all illegals pending assessment meant that there was an increase in separations. I never disputed that.

But following Trump's latest Executive order, the situation has reverted to the previous policy which was the same as Obama's policy.

That's why I asked Foxy earlier..."So now that the Trump policy is to not separate these kids from their loving parents, I assume that you are in full and furious agreement with the Trump position given that its the same as what you say was the Obama position." and why I asked "So the issue becomes whether you (and SR) now support the CURRENT Trump policy or do you condemn it AND the Obama policy."

But you and others don't want to acknowldege that the current policy is the same as the Obama policy so whenever I point it out you just go into dalek mode...."exterminate, exterminate".

Personally I'm disappointed that Trump backed away from mandatory detention for illegals. but he did and reverted to the policies that applied under the Obamessiah. Its just amusing that those suffering TDS are prepared to distort the facts in their anxiety to avoid criticising Obama while excoriating Trump for NOW having the same policy.
Posted by mhaze, Sunday, 1 July 2018 12:03:43 PM
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Well it seems that AJP has returned from his self-imposed exile following his 'I can totally disprove the existence of God' debacle.

I see that he's still trying to find a form of words to extricate him from the nuclear family blunder from last(?) year.

As to lying about Foxy - anyone who cares can easily see that she made-up claims about the Supreme Court ruling in the Masterpiece Cakes case and then sought to hide it by making up claims about the accuracy of my data (she admitted the latter). So lying?

Its true that I don't pursue all errors of fact made on these pages. But I do so when the error is egregious and when it is central to the argument being made. When someone's outrageous claim about the nuclear family is central to their overall point, then that claim should be outed because it means the entire point is invalidated. When someone makes an outrageous claim about a court case that forms the basis of their claim about said case, again it ought to be outed.

What I find most interesting is just how much people are prepared to beclown themselves in trying to defend their errors. Foxy could've easily just acknowledged her error and moved on and that would've been the end of it. But alas...

SR could've claimed a typo as the cause of his troop numbers in Korea blunder but instead doubled down with some moronic gumph.

There have been many instances here where posters have acknowledged their errors and that's the end of it. But some people just try ad infinitum to muddy the waters enough to deny past errors. I enjoy unmuddying muddy waters.
Posted by mhaze, Sunday, 1 July 2018 12:21:42 PM
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mhaze,

A few corrections.

Regarding the Masterpiece case in Colorado?

1) The Colorado Civil Rights Commission did decide against
the baker and did order
the baker Phillips, to under-go anti-discrimination
training.

2) The case went all the way to the Supreme Court and
Justice Anthony Kennedy stated that the Commission violated
the baker's rights under the First Amendment which
guarantees freedom of expression.

3) However Justice Kennedy also pointed out that the
court did not address the wider principle of whether a
business can refuse to serve gay people saying -
"This must await further elaboration."

4) The decision of the court focused narrowly on the
handling of the Phillips' case, however leaving OPEN
the question of whether anti-discrimination laws should
supersede religious beliefs in future cases.

All this was given to you in our discussion - and included
in the links I supplied to you - which were self-explanatory.

Now, you can twist and turn things which ever way you like
but I resent being accused of things I did not do due to
your lack of comprehension skills. Over which I have no control.

As for the policies of Trump vs Obama.
What is clear is that Obama in 2014 took a mostly punitive
approach to border crossers. Trump in 2018 took an entirely
punitive one. Obama was reacting partly to circumstances. Trump
was reacting solely to his own desires. Both Presidnet's
prosecuted many border crossers but Trump's zero tolerance
policy created family separation. Trump made separating families
a matter of standard practice. Obama did not.

I told you previously that - it's not really about what Obama
or Trump did. Right now the question is what will Trump be
allowed to do?
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 1 July 2018 1:56:04 PM
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cont'd ...

mhaze,

The only person I see who's muddying the waters -
is you.

Try taking off your blinkers and really pay attention
to what is being stated.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 1 July 2018 1:58:17 PM
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Yes Foxy, I understand "what is being stated."

ie, that even though the new Trump policy is the same as the Obama policy, you and others are determined to not notice that since to do wouldn't fit the narrative that you erroneously developed.

"I resent being accused of things I did not do due to your lack of comprehension skills".

Which part of "They [SCOTUS] ordered the baker to undergo anti-discrimination training" did I miscomprehend?

You said it. It was wrong. Either your lack of comprehension skills led you to misunderstand what you read OR you made it up. I suspect the latter.
Posted by mhaze, Tuesday, 3 July 2018 10:34:46 AM
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mhaze,

I've explained things to you on page 33.

And many times previously.

I have nothing further to add.

Whatever rocks your boat.
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 3 July 2018 4:34:03 PM
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