Has that well worn Aussie term died? work till you are 70, tax cuts for the richest no rise in pensions? casual work not full time jobs? what type of a society are we building? what type do we want? housing in our city's, not one worse than Sydney seems to exile many from living in them? why? what happened to fair go mate? is being poor or even less well off a crime worthy of punishment?

Unless our Governments stop spending money the future generations could well know what poverty is. More waste for education to make people dumber, more for childcare contributing to breaking up families and more to the rogue renewables industry. We certainly are not the smart country and future generations should the Lord allow the planet to survive that long not be happy with us. We should have no debt, cheap electricity and be able to teach kids to read and write. Since Rudd came to power we have failed miserably. And to think people cheered him on!

Dear Belly,

This kind of speaks to how we used to see ourselves as different to the US. The balance between individual rights and equity is something we always thought we had better than the US. Medicare, free education, a progressive taxation system, fair employment laws, decent union representation, a strong and independent public broadcaster, were all things we felt set us apart.

Now all of them have either been substantially degraded or are under threat.

We use to take pride in the word egalitarian, now most people would struggle to tell you what it meant.

So yes I think we have lost our way and it will take some effort to push back against those forces determined for us to become the 51st state.

Dear Belly,

A few decades ago according to an article in the
Sydney Morning Herald - our nation was economically
insular, weighed down by protectionism, overregulation,
and chronic inflation. A treasurer famously warned
we would become a banana republic.

However, by giving more play to market
forces as the most reliable generator of wealth,
Labor and Coalition governments transformed the way we did
business. From the interventionist mindset that delivered
genuine turmoil in the 1970s we moved to an era of sounder
policy and more durable prosperity.

Just think how the old Australia - the over-regulated,
inflation-prone country of the 1970s would have coped with
the GFC of 2008-2009. The lesson: good policy really matters.

Nothing lasts forever. And its true the
socioeconomic transformation of recent decades has led
to painful adjustment for the loss of globalisation and
rapid technological change. Then again, the same forces
that have bred this insecurity, both at home and abroad,
cannot be stopped. Re-regulating the economy or kicking
out immigrants won't solve problems.
Adaptation and innovation will, according to the
Sydney Morning Herald.

The article tells us that disruption is the new norm across
business, politics, and culture.
As Campbell Soup Chief Executive Denise Morrison
has put it:

"You can either lead change or be a victim of it.
Now is the time for leaders."

Well I am 72 years old, truly feel half that, but saw a far better Australia than today's,what are we a country? community? hopefully both, and why is caring and sharing what we have wrong? is it wealth creation for some at the cost of poverty for others all the way? not calling for socialism, it seems to make people and economy's slothful, but surely a tax system that fairly taxes all, one that funds a bottom,America PTY LTD is no longer a country to mimic, it has not been from Trumps first day,how do humans however justifie people living on the streets while others live like royalty we no longer use the fair go mate demand and too many do not even agree with it

Some people say the notion of a 'fair go’ was always a myth. I don’t see that it matters, particularly now when the people controlling us hate themselves as much as they hate us. We are told we 'racists’’, 'Islamophobes’, 'homophobes’, 'too white', 'too privileged’, and so on. Why would we worry about a 'fair go’ with all that crap being thrown at us.

“What sort of society are we building”? There is nothing being built. The elites and the Marxists wreckers are tearing society to pieces. If anything is being built, it is a collectivist utopia where everyone but the elites have an equal share in nothing

Dear Belly,

As far back as I can remember - growing up in this
country we've always embraced the underdog, cut
tall poppies down to size and went to great lengths
to distance ourselves from what we saw as the rigid
class system of our British colonists.

But as experiences today and a raft of statistics
demonstrate - it's harder for those on the margins of
society to get ahead than many Australians would like
to believe.

And that's not a "Fair Go!"

I am going to agree with ttbn, that the notion of a 'fair go' is mostly a myth, and to the greater extent it has always been so. It is a falsehood that became part of the Australian ethos, a truism that was never true. From the first day of European settlement when no such thing was extended to the majority, be they white or black, through to times of war, when so many were needlessly sacrificed in the name of king and country, to today when the struggle continues for equality and fairness for many Australians, the poor and disadvantaged.

Steele compares us with America, and in relative terms we certainly have out done that nation in the fight for egalitarianism within society, but as a society that prides itself as being the land of the free, the US has failed miserably to live up to its own lofty principles of freedom and liberty for all.

Belly asks a couple of pertinent questions; what type of a society are we building? what type do we want? The right answers to those questions are not to be found in economic rationalism, or social division, nor through hatred towards others, or fostering a dog eat dog society, as many think is ideal. Rather its to be found through fairness and social justice for all. Unfortunately many of our political leaders fall well short when it comes to what is needed, for want of a better term, call it a fair go for all, something our leadership promises, but fails to deliver, time and again.

The victim industry is well and truly alive.

Dear Belly,

Thank you for your great questions: «what are we a country? community? hopefully both, and why is caring and sharing what we have wrong?»

As it stands we are nothing.

Having a community is wonderful, I support it, and in a community, caring and sharing just occurs, normally, our inherent goodness just shines - and as for taxes, in a real community we give them gladly, even more, rejoicing in the opportunity to help.

But we have no community because instead we have an imposed, impersonal and arbitrary framework, without shared values, that claims to include us whether we like it or not, which never sought our permission to be included, which instead of politely seeking to enlist our cooperation by trying to convince us of its merits, threatens what horrible things it would do to us if we refuse. Who would ever want to identify and cooperate with such an imposed framework? Certainly not me! Certainly not people of goodwill!

Hi Foxy,

//But as experiences today and a raft of statistics
demonstrate - it's harder for those on the margins of
society to get ahead than many Australians would like
to believe.

And that's not a "Fair Go!"//

I contend that, that has always been the case. The marginalised have always existed in Australian society and there has always been the belief by some, that simply through hard work and dedication one would miraculously rise above ones circumstances and reach a new pinnacle in life. For many that is not the reality, they have worked hard but the best they can hope for is a better life for their children than they themselves have experienced.

The majority of marginalised people I have dealt with in my life, and I have dealt with a few, are essentially good people who have been dealt a bad hand. There are those I would describe as rotten apples, but they are a minority.

cont.

cont.

A case study;

A bloke in his early 50's, looks like a man mountain, and mean as in appearance. He did seven years for rape, he faced court on that matter, years after the fact, was guilty as charged, and got what he deserved. Recently a niece of his came around and asked if he would go with her and collect belongings from her place, as she has busted up with her partner for the umpteeth time. At the place the niece went in, he waited in the car, next thing the niece is copping a hiding from the partner and his mate, man mountain intervenes and gives both blokes a dust up. The upshot is, he's arrested, and is now doing five months home detention, the magistrate took some mitigating circumstances into consideration and didn't put him away for twelve months.

My involvement is he has a house at $250/week and to help with the rent he wants a girl about 25, known to him to board, plus a interstate truck drive to stay two nights a week. Would I support his application to arrange that, having some concerns, and after meeting and questioning all, I agreed. It would be easy to dismiss him as a worthless violent thug and throw him to the lions, many would see it that way. Despite all what has happened I think essentially he deserves another chance in life, others would not agree. I talked about a lot of things with him, his childhood upbringing, all was a total disaster, he never had a chance in life from day one.

ttbn I have no answers for your bitter slanted and in my view quite wrong views, but still would not walk past another in need, will never tell a worker they must work till near death, not say increasing costs of living that hurt some is ok, yes I would refuse to pay welfare to some, those who should never get it because they refuse to work, in fact about, in my view,70 percent of us, from all walks of life all politics, share similar views, mate! that MARXIST junk! even within Labor and the greens such people could not fill a phone box.

Belly,

You can barely put two words together, yet you presume to diagnose that I am 'bitter’ and 'slanted’. You are are typical of the subject of the adage 'those who have the least to say talk the most’.

Dear Paul 1405,

Bless You for agreeing to help that man. As you pointed out
many would have refused. Everything is relative. We all
have our own stories and everyone has obstacles to overcome.
They can be our greatest teachers. Each of us goes through
transitions and transformations - the important thing is
that we acknowledge them and learn from them.

Life for my parents certainly wasn't easy when they first
arrived in this country. But I think it wasn't easy for
anyone at that time. I only have my own life experiences
to go on - and I have been very lucky, I admit that.
I came from a very loving and supporting family who always
had my back. I think that makes a hell of a difference.
That's how I've always managed to remain positive despite
what some difficult times. I still believe
though - complain as we can (and do) our country is till better
than most others. When I talk to my friends in the US,
Germany, and the UK - I realise just how lucky we really are.

ttbn,

It's not how many words a person may use that counts.
It's what they do with those words that matters.
Do yours count for so much?

Come on belly, & you kiddies, take off the rose coloured glasses, age has blurred them so you can't see back clearly.

I'm a bit older than most of you, so here's a few facts about the old days.

Go back to before my time, & the famous jolly swagman tells the storey. No welfare, no pension, & no public housing. Walk to the next town, & look for some hard work to earn a meal. Soup kitchens in cities & some larger towns, but no more than that.

Fast forward to post WW11, which I lived.

Over 40 families in my neighbourhood living in dirt floored unlined tin sheds in an area of Bathurst. You had to cover your bed with a horse blanket to stop the melting frost from the inside of the roof from wetting it as it dripped down. Perhaps slightly better than homeless, but about as cold in somewhere like Bathurst.

All of us were building small houses. No choice, the law limited you to 12 square, to spread the short supply of building materials further. Welfare dependent public housing tenants today would scream their miserable heads off if forced to live in the houses we dreamed of back then.

Never heard of unemployment benefits, but the age pension was about half what it is today. The local men used to patch up the old pensioner widow's house with whatever they could find, as it fell apart. She had no debt, but lived on potatoes & cabbage, all she could afford.

Continued.

Continued.

If you were rich, or worked very hard, & were pretty good academically, you could get to university, with a teachers scholarship. I just managed a General Motors scholarship with 2 first class honours 1 second class honours & 2 "A". It was harder for us country kids, as our schools did not offer physics & chemistry as separate subjects.

My scholarship gave me all costs, 7 pounds a week, with 3 days a week at university, with 2 days & university holidays at the Pagewood factory, very generous for the day. I had to work very hard make up for those 2 days, but so did about half of us, so nothing special.

There were only 12 kids in 5Th year, few went past intermediate. All bar one of those who didn't earn a university scholarship, did get a teachers collage course. We were a bright bunch that year, with great teachers, & all wanted out of a country town, so worked very hard.

No free medical or hospital treatment for us peasants. You paid for your treatment, or hospital & or medical benefits weekly, so you got treatment. With the best medical treatment of the day, I & I'm sure, many of you would be dead now. One of our massively growing costs today is medical treatment, withy both expensive equipment & treatments even the hugely wealthy couldn't dream of back then, given to all free today.

Perhaps you folk should be counting your blessings, rather than winging the hand outs are not big enough.

Paul1405,
The concept of a fair go may have started out restricted, but by the time I first came to Australia 200 years later (I'm presuming the concept wasn't of Aboriginal origin since they were excluded early on) it had become universal. Even though there was still a general dislike of some groups, it was recognised that everyone deserved a fair go.

I think the rot set in when politicians started promoting the idea that refugees didn't deserve a fair go.

I have felt this myself but thought it was just me, getting old. I liked Tony Abbott, but never liked Turnbull. Our Rep is Barnaby Joyce, who as you know has been in the news. I won't vote for him again. My son had a permanent job, and he was sacked after 13 years of employment. The new CEO got rid of all the permanent staff and now only young girls etc. Yes casual. Hardly any jobs are permanent in the hospitality sector and pensioners who own their own homes, who pay rates, insurance and maintenance are worse off than those who rent their houses and those that rent themselves.

I have the feeling that those on welfare have an uphill battle, but so do others who work. I sold a house in Cronulla 35 years ago for 85k. They knocked it down and built villas on it, and I would guess those villas now are worth over a million.

I don't like Turnbull, Joyce or the Greens, nor Shorten either. Lots of people are doing the Donkey vote, but I won't. Just remember Barnaby is supported by Labor and the Greens locally. Best of luck mates.

Dear Hassie,

Thanks for bringing us back to reality.

I don't remember the times that you describe.
They sound awful. However from perosnal
experience with my health - and the care that
I've received over the years - I've been
lucky living in this country and not the US.
I've more than been paid in full for my private
hospital health cover. And Than Heaven for
Medicare! I'd hate to think where we'd be if
we lived in the US.

Well Belly I agree with you. Life for those disadvantaged has improved, but if you find yourself on Newstart, it was $550. pf. And you had to apply for 8 jobs, complain, but it might not do any good.

Belly, the world I grew up in in my early working years was one where if you didn't keep up, you got replaced. Unfortunately I have no real issues with that. Of cause the result to the likes of unfair dismissal laws is a casualised workforce. As long as one side gets treated differently, workers/employers you will always have a winner and looser and the looser will find ways around the situation. In this case it is casual and contract employment.

As for retirement at 70, what are you expecting. We start work later in life, work less hours, don't work as hard, and live 40 to 50% longer.

As for the future, there is no real future because we are killing our way of life, supporting far too many people and decreasing our tax revenue dollars. It can only end in tears.

Dear rehctub,

It certainly can all end in tears - if we don't
get the right policies, and the right leaders.

ttbn mate! I play a good game of verbal tennis, not got a reverse gear, but not changing my view about you, let me be clear, yes Hasbeen Rectub, bush bunny, read every post, ttbn too, I want a fair go, wait in hope and understanding, only a great Labor leader has ever bought changes that made us better,my wish list will stun you, see I want tax reform, an end to dodging tax, multi nationals to pay tax on every dollar earned here,welfare reform, and end to casual jobs and jobs full time well paid work of benefit to the community, for every unemployed person,health reform, no one should die because they can not afford greedy drug owners huge prices, the list continues but it is a better caring world I want, for every one.

Bless You Belly!

No Foxy, they were wonderful.

The war was over, dad had come home, we owned a little bit of Oz, & were building our own home.

We had really great teachers, most of whom were happy to go the extra mile to help us kids get the results we needed.

You couldn't buy a water tank for love or money, & most families could not afford football boots for their kids, but we could play football, & things like icecream & balloons were appearing in the shops again.

We could even buy fireworks to let off ourselves, & a rifle to shoot rabbits for the pot. Yep the nanny state was yet to take over, it was a wonderful world.

Belly,

I can't comment on your verbal ability, obviously, but your often incoherent writing puts you in the semi-literate category.

Dear Hassie,

It sounds wonderful.

Have you recorded any of it for your kids?

If not you should.

I'd buy it if you wrote a book.

As I'm sure so would many other people.

Hi Belly, I again remind you of the 'armadillo principle', and don't be put off by some pompous jackass who thinks he is better than you. I have no problem with your posts, I'll second Foxy's comment;

Bless You Belly!

ttbn my gear box in relation to you has a neutral position, no intention of playing your game.fair go mate, we no longer even use the term, but increasing numbers know it still is much needed

Paul I thank you mate, yes think of you as such, well you will not find the old Belly, the one ever ready to do verbal warfare, exists any more.
While I live I grow, and learn some need to understand we can all get it wrong, but some work very hard to prove it is so.

Be careful of your 'mates', Belly. They are both like 2 year Olds. They can turn nasty at the drop of a hat.

Yes, 'Fair go' is dead.
PC rules the land now.
'Fair go' still exists if you're an immigrant or part of a minority group, basically anything other than normal.
If your normal, then that means your white and racist, and deserve to be discriminated against because of your 'white privelidge'.

Everything's inverted.
Normal = Abnormal
Abnormal = Normal

Australia is being destroyed from within. like all western countries.

Most Australians are brainwashed morons who become collaborators in this agenda themselves.

Salutations ttbn,

I am mortified you would say such a thing, you being one of my favourite little fur balls on the forum. Just the other day I recall posting "I agree with ttbn".

Belly has his own style, when it comes to posting and to say //your often incoherent writing puts you in the semi-literate category// is most unkind, and unfair. I have no comprehension problems with Belly's writings. I suspect you take exception at the content rather than the comprehension.

And to think you one claimed your nick stood for Try To Be Nice.

Long history with both ttbn and happy to disagree with you,some will while ever able, try to keep fair go mate alive

Dear AC,

On the contrary. The stats say otherwise.

Australia is a happier place than most.

At the moment all we need is a change of
leadership.

Would have reported the above but can not link to do it, NSW budget throws money around like confetti, trouble is very little of it go,s to those in real need those feeding the homeless got zero, and we in this state have more of them than any other, what is so wrong about helping those in need?

Belly, all that stamp duty windfall from the sky high Sydney property market, along with public asset sell offs. This is one of the most incompetent governments NSW has ever had. Soon they are going to have to come up with an extra $2 billion of taxpayer money to take over from the useless Spanish contractor they have "working" on the Sydney light rail project. BTW the contractor is suing the government for $1.1 billion, claiming he was mislead.

Unfortunately, with a state election up for next March, your man Luke Foley comes across as a weak powder puff in my book. Labor needs another Neville Wran, otherwise its 4 more years of the nose job.

//Labor needs another Neville Wran, otherwise its 4 more years of the nose job.//

Let us hope the Liberals all stay focused on beating each other up and trampling old ladies rather than beating the opposition:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-06-18/liberal-party-brawl-at-arncliffe-cafe/9883926

Because they seem hell bent on destroying NSW, and with another 4 years in government they just might be able to pull it off.

Don't think they'll be getting too many votes up my way, mind you. Not after their genius 'Revitalise Newcastle' scheme which has made an absolute mess of what used to be quite a nice place.

Toni, it took place in my neck of the woods, down at Michel Nagi's cafe. Nagi is a Liberal councillor on the newly formed Bayside Council. The bloke has a history? As does Labor there with major corruption uncovered in the old totally Labor controlled Botany Council, now about 1/3 part of Bayside Council, with the old, rather smelly, Rockdale Council forming the other 2/3.

I don't think it will be too long before something goes off in Bayside Council, and the State Minister will have to intervene. Didn't like the Liberal team put up at the council elections, not because they were Liberals, but some of them reminded me to much of Salim Mehajer once an Auburn councillor.

Belly, if it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy, by all means dream on, but the reality is the world you are wanting is the world we had some 30 odd years ago.

You see this working world you want got replaced by first, super for all employees, of cause from a trade off on wages at first,3%, but then led to little more than a hand out. Still no sign of employees having to save for themselves either BTW.

Then there was unfair dismissal, where people did ridiculous things, got sacked, then got their jobs back. It's my understanding now that to be sacked for three warnings, all three have to be for the same offence.

Of later has been the wide spread of the likes of 2 on 2 off, $150K per year. Of cause these arrangements we popular in a world where coal/oil were above $100 per ton/barrel, and profits were huge. Those days are also gone, but workers can't accept that those conditions have to go as well.

As for welfare reform, well that's on it's way and boy is that going to be a shake up. Of cause those who did the right thing are being dragged down by the crooks, but that's nothing new either unfortunately. Having said that, I have no sympathy for anyone who smokes, drinks heavily, or takes drugs and gets sick, although I do feel for the kids. But again much of their paid could have been avoided had the baby bonus been better planned.

So as I say Belly, enjoy your dream mate, but when you do wake up, just remember how much of what we now have has been brought on by, or at least assisted by, the unions. Stress leave, domestic violence leave, parental leave, the list goes on and it all comes at a cost, but some of us knew that, and others ignored the warnings.
Casualization is simply a reaction to an action.
Continued

Well Paul here I go again, TRUTH it has value, Nifty Nev was a thief! maybe even more so than Sir Robin Askin! now there is a claim! both equaled the Obead infamy, our current leader, comes from the left, I watched him at conference fight fearlessly, against my faction and the rats in NSW Labor ranks,I trust him!totally, NSW never needed change more, unless you look at the defeat of the Last Labor government, it BETRAYED its members,it has a honest leader and it is time for a return

Continued by rehctub
The reality is Belly you can't keep pushing employers for more and more, then expect them to just keep giving. Unions have blood on their hands with casualisation of work, but while most have full time jobs, very few take any blame and that's a shame.

Of cause there are other issues as well that have led to the situation, including consumers choosing to buy online or support the majors heavily who of cause are doing all they can to reduce staff.

Like it or not this is a new world, and with the banking RC, buying a house with a casual/contract job is set to get a whole lot harder. Again, it didn't have to be like this. But it is.

I have to say that I can understand workers getting restless when our politicians are about to get another annual pay increase of $4k-$8k without having to do a thing to earn it. No productivity increase for them.

Rechtub you seem to be calling for loyalty from consumers/workers but are without doubt the first to refuse it to them,my 80.000 a year days are behind me, and I a pensioner buy on price, and consume only what I can afford,blood on our hands? silly thought as you deep down must know consumers need income to consume, any thought no tax paid by very rich is less of a problem than wages rises is quite funny, weird but funny

Belly, please don't distort my view on corporate taxes. I have clearly said that in order to suggest all corporations must pay tax on every dollar profit, one must first establish what that profit figure is. It appears to me that those on the tax band wagon are simply taking the gross profit of these companies, then calculating the tax on that figure. Giving no room for write-offs.

The other side of my argument is that before we chase these multinationals away, we should first find out just what they bring to the table, by way of employees taxes, pay roll taxes and GST to name just a few. There are also less obvious taxes like on toll fees, car regos, fuel, motor vehicle consumables, telecommunication taxes, land taxes,the list goes on.

These are all taxes and they would all not be generated if these multinationals were to pack up and leave.

Chances are they generate far more in indirect taxes than the likes of you suggest they should be paying.

remember, if they do leave, not only would we miss out on the taxes you are referring to, but also the ones I have shown here.

It's a huge risk if we don't do the math mate.

Rechtub I KNOW one day a great reformer will come, and that reformer man or woman must reform tax, not an easy task in respect to world trade,like you, I know self interest wins over doing the right thing,a GST no exceptions for multi nationals,should be on every dollar turned over, in the country it is earned,BUT you seem, constantly, to blame welfare/pensions/wages/unions?if you are right humanity is not worth saving

Belly, are you aware GST is only paid by the end user, as all ABN holders, paying GST on claimable goods, get their tax back.

A financial transaction tax is worth a look, but no one seems to have the balls to implement, or even put it to the pub test, for some reason.

Finally, if you are of the opinion that unions don't have a lot to do with casualisation of our workforce, then you believe that mate.

I guess we can agree to disagree on that one, but do remember, ive been an employer in small business for almost 30 years, so I do have a fair idea of whats gone on.

Sadly Foxy, we haven't had any "leaders" in this country for many, many years. The current crop is dismal to say the least.

Rechtub, yes aware, did you over look my term reform? it is my intention/hope and in the end a sure bet, that true fair tax reform will come with the reformer and that every cent should face GST it could, my maths are not brilliant, even be the only tax the world has, different rates for products we must use say fuel?

belly, if you put gst on every item purchased by big business, and take away input credits, prices will simply go up because they wont sit back and allow their profits to be eroded.

In my opinion we need a tax that taxes money movement,(financial transactions) not people/entities. Anything else is just adding to the cost base, and intimately end user/consumer prices.

Rechtub maybe we are talking about the same thing, let us be honest we are not the people who would put this together we lack that skill, but here is what I am on about, a tax, just maybe the only tax, on every dollar spent/used, not the profit that leads to tax avoidance,every one pays, no exceptions, even for religions,stop every form of tax avoidance, in the end our current system lets the very very rich avoid tax, not even close to fair

Belly,

The "fair go" is not dead it has evolved. Reducing the suffocating interference of the government and unions has led to a vastly improved standard of living for all Australians. The real income of the lowest quartile has improved more between 1996 to 2006 than in any other decade in Aus history.

we are going to see tax reform, our history is full of past reforms and such a reform is needed now,if world trade lets some multi nationals trade here but pay zero tax it constructs both very rich and very poor