Well I'm flabbergasted.

The annual war games between the US and South Korea, often the largest joint operations in the world including amphibious landing craft close to the Korean border, has served as a real source of anger for the North Koreans for decades. They were one of the prime drivers of their race to nuclearisation and missile technology.

I felt there was no way that Trump was going to give an inch on them nor the 12,000 US troops stationed on the Korean peninsular. But he has signaled that he wants to 'bring the soldiers home'.

Now I realise how much the Chinese want the US off their doorstep, and they do have a lot of influence over Kim Jong-un, but Kim still had to go into that meeting and get those concessions from Trump and somehow he managed to pull it off. What did he promise in return? To halt missile and nuclear weapon testing. Why wouldn't you if you had done significant testing and already had between 30 – 60 bombs in the arsenal.

This obviously has to have earned him huge kudos from China.

He has really surprised me.

//What did he promise in return? To halt missile and nuclear weapon testing.//

Which they've had to anyway since they destroyed their testing site.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/26/north-korea-nuclear-test-site-collapse-may-be-out-of-action-china

My inner cynic suspects that they'll back to their old tricks once they've established a new test site.

As the king of ignorance, misjudgment and silly ideas, you will continue to be flabbergasted. You might even grow up one day.

" the 12,000 US troops stationed on the Korean peninsular."

Its actually 28000 troops. So only out by 230% which for someone as clueless as our SR is actually a step in the right direction.

As usual those suffering TDS are desperately trying to spin the results of the summit.

Trump has given away nothing. He didn't promise a reduction in troops - that was merely an aspiration he mentioned after the summit. The US no longer needs to keep such large numbers in Korea. A trip-wire contingent of say 5000 would be enough. But the timing of the withdrawal is important lest it be seen as a retreat. So Trump will pick his time and pull them out at his discretion. I mentioned this a month ago.

He's also given up nothing in regards to the war-games. They've just completed their latest games and the next would be up to a year away. They can quickly and easily be reinstated if Kim doesn't play nice.

Equally Kim hasn't given away anything either. The summit was all about confidence building. Seeing if Kim is sincere in giving up his nukes and Kim seeing what he gets, including guarantees of his regimes safety, from the US.

The sanctions remain and can be upgraded if needs be. The ball's in Kim's court. The next 6 months will tell the story as to whether he's really prepared to have his promised denuclearisation verified.

The transition of the anti-Trumpers has been both funny and instructive. We've gone from being told that Trump's 'maximum pressure' policy toward Kim would start WW3, to being told that Trump is too naive in his desire to achieve peace. That these people don't even bother to be consistent in their views or acknowledge previous erroneous predictions is really par for the course.

Meanwhile Trump moves on. This might work. It might not. But we are potentially a lot closer to peace in that region than any time since the mid 1990s.

i just read media reports of how some Leftist media is already digging up Trumps most offensive remarks about North Korea etc. These irresponsible morons should literally be culled for treason.
Instead of hailing the prospect of peace, they keep stirring the prospects of disunity. Are there any othe groups of people more irresponsible & stupid than journalists ? Shouldn't tehir employers just sack them on the spot & if they don't fine the media outlet respnsible so heftily that they'll never again utter a word out of place.

Dear Steele,

This was taken from the CNN news report: -

CNN asks - "What happens now with US troops?"

We're then told that -

Kim came away with an unexpected gift, after Trump
shocked his allies in Seoul and his own military
by calling a halt to joint US-South Korean military
exercises about which Pyongyang has long fumed.

Trump called the exercises "provocative" - adopting
North Korea's own rhetoric and said cancelling them
for as long as dialogue was working out would save
a lot of money.

Trump's offer reinforces worries in Congress that the
President, who has long disputed the value of US
garrisons abroad is preparing to put the presence of
thousands of US troops on the negotiating table.

This will delight China, which is seeking to overtake
the US as the premier military power in the Asia Pacific
region. No wonder South Korea and Japan are very concerned.
We should be as well.

Hi there MHAZE...

Much of what you say, I agree with. While Mr TRUMP has got his problems on the domestic front (with some at least), he is a master negotiator as he'd need to be in big business. As far as Mr KIM JUNG-UN is concerned, he's far 'dog' cleverer than many think he is. I agree with STEELEREDUX he's most certainly managed to ingratiate himself more favourably with the Chinese leadership, after the Summit of the two leaders.

That said, for the Americans to trust the North Korean leadership with anything they may say or offer to do, would be a folly. This individual, is a despot, a murderer. One responsible for orchestrating genocide of his own people, by whatever definition you'd care to employ. I was really hoping against hope, that some disenfranchised North Korean having escaped to the South, managed to assassinate this evil stain on humanity, while he was 'living it up' in Singapore. While millions of his countrymen in the North, starved! Such an individual would merit the Noble Prize for Peace.

I'm impressed.

The worry was that Trump would not understand military matters, but this shows he has it taped.

The lefties want to be highly ready to fight the last war, something democracies have done all too often. With this simple move he has proven he understands this.

If the North Koreans were silly enough to attack the south, a couple of hundred cruise missiles in the right places would stop them dead. Less than a dozen nuclear tipped missiles would do the same. There is no need for very expensive garrisons of US troops to contain Kim. A small mop up force is all that's needed, & does not present a valuable target to Kim.

If he were silly enough to fire off one of his missiles at US allies his entire arsenal, & country could be destroyed in a few minutes. Trump & it appears Kim know this. Kim is now negotiating because he realises Trump would most likely do it, where his predecessors would mostly talk & vacillate.

Boy doesn't Trump know how to negotiate.

The Guardian, CNN, ABC all very 'repuatable'. All organisations with egg all over their faces. First Trump is a maniac trying to start ww3 and now he is giving away to much. The hatred by these journalist is palpable. I am loving it.

SR yes, however you can be forgiven if the slavish comment by some ask are some here in fact Russian trolls? I truly doubt Kim did not have his arm up his back, and that China and its mate Russia, had much more to do with the out come than him or Trump, time will tell not banking any thing yet

Dear Foxy,

Thanks for mentioning South Korea. Does anybody else remember South Korea ? That's that thriving little country just to the south of North Korea. If the Yanks pull their troops out (32,000, Steele, not 12,000, plus 50,000 in Japan), while Kim can keep his 1400 big artillery pieces trained on Seoul, and his 3rd biggest army in the world just over the border, not to mention China's armed forces, navy and airforce just a few hundred km across the gulf, (and ITS nuclear arsenal as well), if I was South Korean, I would be shirting myself that Trump, in his anxiety to do a deal and roll over and get his belly tickled, will abandon South Korea.

And further south, if the Yanks retreat from East Asia, how do you reckon the Taiwanese are feeling ? If Trump drops his guts over the South China Sea (after a period of empty bluster), if I was Taiwanese, I would be checking out the migration policies of as many countries as possible. Like the South Koreans would be doing right now.

Did somebody mention 'being played' ?

Joe

Dear Joe (Loudmouth),

It is very concerning I agree.

One can only hope that Congress won't allow it.

Before people get too carried away with Trump's alleged negotiating skills, behind all the television razzle-dazzle and hype, this agreement was a forgone conclusion and prearranged during previous diplomatic negotiations.

Despite Trump’s bravado and tough talk, neither side was really going to walk away from the well-choreographed and probably scripted media event.

It was just a convenient photo-op and popularity boost for both sides. It put Trump in the perceived position of a tough negotiator and reinforced Kim’s local power by elevating him to a higher global position.

Since the collapse of the 1994 Agreed Framework in 2006 and the labelling of North Korea as a member of The Axis of Evil, there was no scope for North Korea to be in any position to negotiate anything, especially the ending of the paranoia inducing decades-long South Korea/US War Games.

The advancing North Korean nuclear capability simply put them in a position to negotiate, which was probably their overall aim. They were never a serious military threat and not suicidal.

Trump is typically claiming sole credit but it was all down to diplomats behind the scenes – that’s how it really works.

It’s a bit like the Cuban Missile Crisis where the USSR threatened to put nukes into Cuba in retaliation for US Missiles installed in Turkey. After the dramatic Hollywood stand-off where the USSR backed down, the USA quietly went about removing their Turkish Missile Bases, but of course we never seem to mention that little wrinkle in the story.

In the end, Korea had an obvious win and Trump had a significant media event. Hopefully it will detract from his disastrous G7 experience.

Can Trump free the hundreds of thousands in North Korea's prison camps? doe he even want to/care? can he bring back the millions who died at the hands of its leader and his family? only if China says so can Trump do other than make his own B grade movie about a victory he never won

I'm beginning to suspect that Trump has a huge "Too Hard" basket. He's put the Iran deal into it, as well as the NAFTA, free trade, the South China Sea, perhaps the EU and NATO - and now all that fiddly stuff to do with Korea. It's just too complicated, so why not just junk it ?

Maybe 'Making America Great Again" means not giving much of a stuff about anywhere else ? Everybody else are just a pack of lying, cheating, thieving bastards anyway, out to get America, so why not ?

Joe

Trump pursues the Rambo method of declaring victory, it is just in his head zero has come out of his photo shoot and that is about all he will get unless CHINA and RUSSIA throw him a bone

Trump has also demonstrated that any deals made with the USA are inherently worthless and can be nullified on just a whim - not just deals made by his predecessors but also ones made personally by him, as his business reputation has shown.

Running a country like a CEO and not as a true leader will be a problem for all. He's bankrupted at least 4 of his businesses and walked away leaving others financially devastated but always managed to protect himself.

Dear mhaze,

Tut, tut, my ignorant friend.

For your information when the US conducted its war games it deploys around 12,000 US troops on the peninsular. It were these which raised the ire of Kim and caused such deep concern. They were what he believed made up the potential invasion force practicing amphibious landings not far from the border.

No more war games mean no need to deploy these 12,000.

Trump also said; “We have right now 32,000 soldiers in South Korea, and I’d like to be able to bring them back home. But that’s not part of the equation right now.”

You wrote;

“They've just completed their latest games and the next would be up to a year away.”

More ignorance old chap.

The next war game is the Ulchi-Freedom Guardian which happens each August or September and last year involved 17,500 US troops and 50,000 South Korean troops so just a couple of months away.

“Hours after Mr. Trump’s announcement in Singapore, American troops in Seoul said they are still moving ahead with a military exercise this fall — Ulchi Freedom Guardian — until they receive guidance otherwise from the chain of command.
Lt. Col. Jennifer Lovett, a United States military spokeswoman in South Korea, said in an email that the American command there “has received no updated guidance on execution or cessation of training exercises — to include this fall’s schedule Ulchi Freedom Guardian.”
“We will continue with our current military posture until we receive updated guidance from the Department of Defense,” she added.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/12/world/asia/trump-military-exercises-north-south-korea.html

Clueless really does sum you up doesn't it.

I'd very much like to hear from our colleague IS MISE. He fought in the Korean war in the 'fifties, as such he'd obviously have some worthwhile opinion on the Topic?

So according to SR, he didn't make a mistake when he said there were "12,000 US troops stationed on the Korean peninsular" because there were 12000 troops doing something sometime somewhere...or something. The lengths some will go to beclown themselves when denying error is really amusing.

As to the wargames....

"Pompeo said he was in the room when Trump agreed to halt long-running military exercises between the U.S. and South Korea that have angered Pyongyang.

Trump "made it very clear that the condition precedent for the exercises not to proceed was a productive, good-faith negotiations being ongoing," Pompeo said. "And at the point it’s concluded that they are not, the president’s commitment to not have those joint exercises take place will no longer be in effect. I mean, he was unambiguous about that and how he communicated it both I think at the press conference but certainly when he was with Chairman Kim as well."

So as I said earlier and SR seemed to miss, the wargames are off for so long as Kim plays nice. The second Trump and his advisers deem that Kim isn't being completely sincere, the games will be on so fast it'll make their heads spin.

I'd expect that at some point Trump will need to use that stick to keep the NK in line and moving forward. In the same way as Trump cancelled the talks when NK started to drag their heels, the wargames will be held back as a means to refocus everyone's attention should they become less than fully co-operative.

There's been some gold medal winning moving of goalposts going on since the successes Trump has had to date.

Remember when Trump's trash talking to Kim was gunna start WW3? Well now it seems that Trump's talking nice to Kim is really bad and elevates Kim to levels that he doesn't deserve.

Suddenly it seems that the political prisoners in the NK gulags are the biggest problem and Trump is an utter failure for not convincing Kim to get rid of them two weeks from next Tuesday...or something.
Never mind that there's no way to do that short of war, or that attempts to coerce NK into changing internal policy would only cause them to assume that regime change was the ultimate aim and therefore stop all negotiations.

The way to close the gulags is to get NK to join the 21st century.

But the hypocrisy is profound. Anyone remember these people complaining that Obama didn't talk human rights when he opened up to Cuba? Me either. Anyone remember these people complain that Obama threw plane loads of money at Iran but didn't talk to them about their human rights? me either.

The left is terrified that Trump's new approach to these problems seems to be working and so they are seeking to change the goals as the old goals are met. I remember the same process being applied to Reagan as his policies succeeded.

There's a long way to go with Kim before total success can be declared but Trump has got further than any other president and he's done it by following policies that the so-called experts have advised against for the past 30 years. There are lots of people whose reputation and livelihoods will be destroyed if Trump succeeds and they hope he doesn't even though success would be good for NK/USA/world.

There's a joke doing the rounds that if Trump found the cure for cancer, the left and his other enemies would complain about how all the oncology nurses would loose their jobs.

I remember the times When Julia Gillard was Prime
Minister - if she was to walk on water - the
Murdoch press - headlines would read -
"Prime Minister can't swim!"

Hi FOXY...

It wasn't a case of, whether Ms GILLARD could walk on water, she actually thought she could! She was the worst PM since Federation, with Mr RUDD running a very close second. Both individuals would make excellent dissertation topics, for Criminal Law (Honours) students.

you summed it up well mhaze

Foxys post o sung wo, is her opinion, and as it turns out mine, we may differ but we never truly know, no matter how firm our view, who is right, Rudd, in my view, was bought down only by two factors, his intention to tax the then booming mines, and his own party by a self interested group, that for me and many, HIGHLIGHT the truth, reform remains a must do for my party. Gillard? bright woman we owe much to but never my cup of tea

Dear O Sung Wu,

Julia Gillard oversaw the introduction of a raft of
impressive and far-reaching legislation showing
high-order negotiation skills, sharp intelligence, and
a great ability to command strategy and detail across complex
issues.

Much of the legislation was nation-building, addressing our
common future as Australians. From the ground-breaking
National Disability Insurance Scheme, a much-more
equitable model for funding primary and secondary education, a
national paid parental leave scheme, the establishment of
the Royal Commission into Child Sexual Abuse to name just a few.

There were many more reforms. Close to 500 pieces of
legislation passed. And all this with a minority government.
On her watch the nation's PM managed - our growing economy - was
the envy of the world, low unemployment, low interest rates,
low inflation and triple-A credit ratings.

She remained strong and poised when everything bar the kitchen
sink was thrown at her.

Credit where Credit is Due.

Hi there Foxy...

Maybe so, with the stench of corruption with her then 'union' boyfriend, lingering about. Kevin RUDD was a lot of things among those an egotist, but to my knowledge there was never any suggestion of corrupt practices levelled at him, unlike Ms GILLARD.

Dear Foxy,

Julia is the person responsible for forcing the NBN down our throats which is about to take away my phone-line, leaving me without communications.

She will be remembered for making our essential services depend on the fragilities of the internet. The internet is controlled by forces outside Australia: sooner or later the internet is bound to be hacked and broken. Previously when that was to happen, we would still be able to call our family, friends and essential services over the good-old and independent copper-based phone - but not any more, now when the internet is broken, the country will break down completely and descend into total chaos. Sadly it's only a matter of time.

Dear O Sung Wu,

There was gross disrespect for the office of Prime
Minister and gross disrespect for Julia Gillard as
a person. Those were extraordinary Australian politics
during that time. Her government sparked an unheralded
series of hostile attacks. An opposition leader stung by
being deprived of what he saw as his due proceeded to
launch a "seek and destroy" mission centred on appeals
to people's prejudices and fears. Every smear campaign
available was tried. Yet none of it stuck. She was
cleared of the attempts at mud-slinging.

Then we also had a deposed PM stung from being removed
so decisively by a Caucus that had lost faith in his
capacity spend the next three years targeting th PM
in his sights.

And of course the media did not help. They revelled in it
all and made the most of it.

Once again we have to give credit where credit is due.

Dear Yuyutsu,

Julia Gillard's NBN roll-out differed greatly from that
of what the Coalition had planned for our country.
I don't think you can blame her for what went wrong.

Foxy, strangely I agree with you. That particular matter to which we refer, should've been tested in a Court of law, as it was original suggested. Otherwise it leaves this stench of corrupt behaviour agains any innocent party. Look at the terrible antecedents of men being accused of a child crime, and then being acquitted - the rumour mill and the media will continue to wear away at the poor bugger ruining his life altogether. These matters should always be held in camera. As should the original allegations against Ms GILLARD.

Dear O Sung Wu,

The media has a lot to answer. Once the mud's been slung
even if the person's been totally cleared - as she
was - many people
still believed the original accusations due to their own
prejudices and fears. And our former PM was an easy
target - with quite a few having their own reasons to
attack her. The "seek and destroy" attitude and the gross
disrespect for the office of PM and for her personally
was unheralded in the history of this country.

I admired her for taking it all in her stride - as she did.
Nobody deserved that sort of treatment.

Hi FOXY...

She was not cleared as you assert, they didn't believe it was worth the time or money to pursue her, especially without the co-operation of Slater & Gordon who were her employer's at the time - she was however asked to leave the Company. I believe she was naive to think, you can lay down with dogs and get up without being infested fleas (her boyfriend at the time). Had police been given carte blanche to pursue any criminality associated with Ms GILLARD - well, who knows where it would lead?

Unfortunately FOXY to cast a vote for Labour, is a vote for the criminal elements of the trade Unions. All my life I've belonged to a union and I fully support them. It's the criminal element at the top of some, eg the CFMEU, who unfortunately sully the reputations of the many good ones.

Dear mhaze,

I'm not sure how you do it but combining childishness with pig ignorance is not a good look.

Do you understand the difference between a standing force of military personnel and a force deployed for so called war games?

When at the end of last year Trump sent 12,000 troops to the peninsular it escalated tensions considerably. “North Korea crisis: 12,000 US troops sent to peninsula amid NUCLEAR WAR fears”
https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/887603/north-korea-news-world-war-3-attack-usa-missile-donald-trump

Most of them remained because of those tensions, Kim wanted them gone and the provocation of the war games to cease. That is what it looks like he got.

Now you off talking about the US entire military presence in South Korea. Who was correct in their numbers? You at 28,500 or your Commander in Chief who put them at 32,000?

Next you had no idea of upcoming war games planned for the peninsular. You were wrong yet again. Yet there was no concession about being incorrect just more bloody waffle.

But Trump has done even more than that. He also talked about the flights from Guam of nuclear capable bombers. Remember last time we discussed this you were so derisive that I included them in a 'nuclear free peninsular' now here they are at the behest of your Commander in Chief.

Look mate when something is so much out of your league normal people go and appraise themselves of the facts rather than digging themselves deeper. How about you give it a try.

Steely, "I'm not sure how you do it but combining childishness with pig ignorance, [along with your stupidity & arrogance], is not a good look".

Well it is clear we have not lost the art of insulting each other to the point of defamation in my absence, is it not clear it never works?as outrageous thoughts about Trump are here on both sides let me add mine,see America in my view bought back from ww2 many things, including the art of the lie, its people, some at least, can no longer tell truth from lie, Trump, Tramp of man that he is,wants only money and is using his position to get even richer,and his victims love him for it!

o sung wo you once pulled me up for what you saw and I failed to, see, as insulting some one, gee your post about Labor while you have every right to an opinion was, well not supported by those who vote for it and give it the largest number of votes FOR ANY SINGLE PARTY in our country. that Sir, remembering the Libs and Nats are separate party's is the fact/truth

Hi BELLY ol' friend...

It's not my intention to cast aspersions on the Labour Party, far from it. However there are some from the 'far left' of that Party, who've done considerable disservice to your Party and that's a great shame.

It's no better in the LNP either. Malcolm TURNBULL represents everything I totally abhor in an individual; a treacherous individual; a backstabber; and one given to uttering mendacious statements to the Electorate, whenever it suits him.

If I consider Ms GILLARD and Mr RUDD to be among the worst PM's in our history, well you can include Malcolm TURNBULL to head that small list! No politician is worth the money they're paid. In fact their Salary packages should be structured upon what they've achieved; as opposed to what they've irrevocably lost through stupidity and incompetence, thus costing the taxpayer millions.

Dear Foxy,

«Julia Gillard's NBN roll-out differed greatly from that
of what the Coalition had planned for our country.
I don't think you can blame her for what went wrong.»

What do I care for the politics? It was her initiative and as a result, 18 months after this cursed thing arrives in my suburb, I will lose all contact with the world. I will not be able call my family and friends, they will not be able to call me, I will not be able to call emergency 000, or a doctor or the plumber if a pipe bursts, never mind the internet (I could still go to the library to use it, unless of course I am too old or sick to get there) - it's all thanks to her and her grandiose dream to put gamers above ordinary people!

But I tell you, this thing will crash eventually because everything will depend on the internet and you too will end up with no communications. Did you know that the CISCO routers that direct the internet traffic, converting IP addresses into physical routes, are made and programmed in America? Did you know that whenever the Americans want, those routers re-download their software from America, so if the Americans decide, or if China hacks CISCO, then the routers can be infected with malware and all internet traffic in Australia, now including also phones (now all being VOIP - "voice over IP"), will cease?

Perhaps you know of some place in the country where they will still be able to retain their copper phone-lines, so I can move there?

O Sung Woo,

Beyond all the hype and accusations about Rudd & Co and the economic performance of the coalition, here are some comparative economic statistics-

1983 – The Coalition under Malcolm Fraser with John Howard as Treasurer hand over to Labor an economy ranked 20th in the world

1984 – Paul Keating wins Euromoney’s Finance Minister of the Year
1996 – Paul Keating and Labor hand over to the Coalition an economy now ranked 6th in the world

2007 – John Howard and the Coalition hand back an economy to Labor that had slipped down to 9th place in the world

2011 – Wayne Swan wins Euromoney’s Finance Minister of the Year
2013 – Labor under Rudd/Gillard hand over to the Coalition the best performing economy in the world, boasting AAA credit ratings after navigating Australia through the GFC (The worst financial crisis since the Great Depression)

2017 – The Coalition under Turnbull/Abbott have presided over an economy that has now slipped back down to 21st in the world.

Yuyutsu,

As a former Telstra employee I can assure you that Cisco do not "download their software from America" - it's loaded locally as is all routing data and Cisco are certainly not the only provider they use.
For added network diversity, there are even two separate phone networks - one by Ericsson and the other by Alcatel, although both will eventually be phased out, just as the electro-mechanical Step-by-Step and Crossbar were replaced decades ago.

Copper phone lines are no longer relevant. All exchanges have been digital since the "Future Mode of Operation" came into effect about 20 years ago and most services now work via Remote Integrated Multiplexers (those cabinets on the street) which connect back to their Node Exchange via Optical Fibre. Migrating to FTTN NBN is just a matter of swinging that RIM connection over onto an NBN cabinet and modifying the Telstra (or other) customer data.

We aren't lkely to return to leaded petrol, Betamax/VHS video or rotary dial phones any time soon either.

Perhaps you should be more concerned about OPTUS and their presence in Parliament House, considering they are owned by the Singapore Government.

Dear Hasbeen,

Thanks for the correction, I will put it to him again.

Dear mhaze,

I'm not sure how you do it but combining childishness with pig ignorance, along with your stupidity & arrogance, is not a good look.

Dear belly,

Yes insults have been a bit of a feature for a while now. There were a group on the forum who felt they gained a bit of swagger through the Abbott period and started flinging the mud around with gay abandon. Most of the others put up with it to some extent but now if someone like mhaze reacts to a post with something like 'clueless' he might in turn be called clueless and ignorant in a reply, and on it goes. Hardly edifying I agree but beyond not taking the first swipe I'm happy to go toe to toe, if I can be bothered reading their posts.

Some of the bluster is dissipating though so there is hope for the future.

Anyway, back to topic.

On Korea, Trump seems to have combined a "I'll roll over and you can tickle my belly" approach with a' "all or nothing" - "complete denuclearisation" - approach. Weird. So Kim can delay, prevaricate, obfuscate, and Trump/Pompeo just have to wait, probably promising even more abandonment of the south Koreans if only Kim would start to do something, anything. Maybe pull all US troops out of South Korea as "a gesture of goodwill". Good luck with that.

What else could they be doing ?

A host of small steps: in return for Kim pulling back his 1400 heavy artillery pieces trained on Seoul, the US suspends any 'war games'.

In return for Kim pulling his navy back, say, fifty km from there 38th parallel on both sides, the US removes nuclear-capable ships from its Japanese bases, maybe move them down to Taiwan where they may be needed soon enough to protect that newly-exposed nation.

n return for Kim getting rid of his missiles and/or missile sites one by one, Trump could slowly relax economic sanctions.

In return for international supervisors permanently stationed in North Korea, the US pulls its armed forces in South Korea back, say, 100 km.

Many steps.

But no. All or nothing. Given Trump is essentially not much more than piss and wind, like all bullies and frauds, it will probably be bits and pieces from the Yanks and nothing substantial from the North Koreans. In fact, Trump will soon lose patience and abandon South Korea altogether.

Joe

RACHY ol' friend...

I'm in no way undertaking a comparative analysis of the economic achievements or failings of our various governments. I'm referring to their ethicality, and their levels of probity. Moreover you might care to note I included our treacherous incumbent, PM Malcolm TURNBULL among them.

Personally I've not got a head for macro-economics, but I'd like to think I can usually tease out issues of integrity and rectitude among our political leaders. After all I spent in excess of 32 years attempting to establish the veracity of all manner of individuals, from those of the 'maggot' variety, to ordained members of the Church. Additionally, if you care to re-read my previous contribution more dispassionately, perhaps then, you may see the thrust of my argument? Thank you...o sung wu.

SR,

OK we get it. As per usual you screw up and then try to cover up.

You talk about "The annual [repeat: annual] war games between the US and South Korea" and then try to say I'm wrong say the next games are up to a year away. I guess you just hope that others won't check your previous claims.

You talk about " the 12,000 US troops stationed on the Korean peninsular" and then try to claim that you weren't talking about the troops stationed in Korea. I guess you just hope that others won't check your previous claims.

Its like the earlier thread where you thought the US had nukes on the peninsula and then tried to cover that error.

Here's a hint: instead of spending time trying to cover errors, spend some time trying to not make errors.

But the theme of your original post was that Kim had won these concessions from Trump, when indeed he's won no concessions. Trump talked about reducing troops AFTER the summit agreement was signed. It wasn't part of the negotiations and wasn't offered as something to induce concessions from Kim.

Contrary to what the TDS brigade 'think', Trump wants to reduce US overseas commitments. Getting some or most troops out of Korea when its safe to do so is part of his America First policy. So not a concession to Kim but a hope that his aims may be closer to fruition.

Equally, as Pompeo said, the US hasn't given up on the wargames . They've merely suspended them while they give Kim a chance to show his sincerity. They now hang like a Sword of Damocles over Kim's head should he decide to back-track on any of his assurances.

We all know that you and you ilk won't ever acknowledge any Trump success but the fact is his policies have forced Kim to negotiate while the US has given up nothing and that has bought the peninsula closer to true peace than its been for decades.

Dear loudmouth,

I suspect you are right but there is some hope that the main impetuous for NK driving for better nuclear and missile technology ie the aggression of the US and its continual raft of threatening war games might be muted by this president. The logic of being able to strike at a country which has shown no signs of dialing back its threatening posture is sound. Whatever other craziness we want to ascribe to Kim this was not an example of it.

Whatever Trump says to placate his base like mhaze doesn't really matter in the end. It is his actions that count. Many times on this forum I have expressed the opinion that the continued aggressive posturing caused by these war games and other harassing actions were counter productive. By giving Kim legitimacy and stature it means that securing the end to military exercise may well have a real impact and not be counted as a victory of one over the other.

In effect this is a freeze for a freeze. Freezing the provocation of the war games for freezing of any further missile or nuclear testing. I don't think this has ever been committed to by any previous president. The rest is pie in the sky right now.

However we shouldn't underestimate just how much this means to the Chinese. Not having extensive US military assets training on their doorstep is a huge win for them.

Dear mhaze.

Time to stop now. Attacking me for your own stuff ups is making you look silly. You were wrong about the next games and you were wrong about the troop numbers. Admit it and move on rather than trying to find some tortuous path to blame me for your mistakes.

How about on the next thread we try to park the insults and see how we go. While this has been fun it is hardly productive. Your call.

o sung wo if we leave our biases in the bucket at the door we just may be able to talk politics, you know I am from the right faction of my party, I doubt you understand as well as I do why that faction formed, once, way way back, the very left had its foot on the party's throat,it even had a few of Sir Robert Menzies reds under the bed, the right[biggest and controlling faction] fought and won, Rudd is and was a great man, will not bother digging up dirt/truth about your side, an election will be held soon, voters usually get it right, that tells me if they return us to power it is not because they are all mad

SR,

1. troop numbers. The ceiling for troops in SK is 28500. The numbers fluctuate based on rotation of troops and can also vary based on what's counted and not counted eg support staff, local support staff etc. But never, never has the number got to 12000. That you can't acknowledge that and had to come up with some cockamamie excuse (why not just blame a typo?) is revealing.

2. wargames. The last games ended recently. I said the next games are due up to a year form now. You said they are annual games which means the next games are due up to a year form now ie we are either both wrong or these other games that you've 'discovered' are minor level games. Either way, asserted that I'm wrong and you're right when we said the same thing is revealing.

3. Happy to park the insults. Since your the one doing the insulting I'll leave it to you.

Loudmouth,

"n return for Kim getting rid of his missiles and/or missile sites one by one, Trump could slowly relax economic sanctions."

Sorry but that fundamentally misunderstands the nature of the problem. One of the main reasons Kim was forced to treat was the crushing effect the enhanced sanctions had on NK. He was fine with the earlier low level sanctions that were routinely ignored by China and Russia and a few others. He was fine with his people suffering privation. But the enhanced sanctions and the enhanced enforcement has bought the problem home to his doorstep and to that of the military - and that he can't live with (literally).

But if the sanctions were slowly lifted then he'd finally get to a point where he could live with them. And then the pressure to get rid of whatever then remained of his nukes would be gone. So Trump had to make it clear that CIVD (complete, irreversible, verified destruction) of all weapons would be required. What you suggest is the exact same mistake that previous presidents have made with regards to NK.

Hi BELLY...

If all those in the federal Labour Party, had the same level of ethics and principals that you have my friend. They'd probably get my vote in perpetuity. Alas, that's not going to happen anytime soon, so it's a case of sit back quietly and watch. Should Mr SHORTIN be victorious in the next federal election, well I really have no idea what's going to happen to our once great Country. Whatever happens BELLY, I'll always respect and value our friendship, despite the best efforts of our political leaders.

I will leave passion/true belief, in the bucket at our door o sung wo, and quote two party preferred poll this morning,54 Labor, 46 the two party's making up the coalition, add just this, no party EVER can or will, make every one happy/get every thing right/ we should be content both sides have at times done great things for this country

Hi there BELLY...

Of course you're right - both major Parties have done great things in the past. Problem is, it's the near future that I'm worried about, all we can learn from the past is; don't make the same mistake twice?

Dear Rache,

Thank you for the information.

Let me clarify that the issue is not about the particular cabling materials, but about independence and the isolation of our essential services from the global and vulnerable wild experiment called "internet".

Power stations and dams have already been hacked over the internet. You think it won't happen here because this or that component was programmed in Australia, but how many times already we said "Oh, but I didn't think of this", "Oh, but I didn't think of that"? For example, Snowden discovered that American products were hacked at the hardware level, that they produced physical backdoors which could even override the firmware. How sure can you be that all components are local and trustworthy? What for example about the compilers of the firmware? Where they also written here? Compilers could easily insert backdoors, but then have we really thought of everything?

The way to go is the way it was: complete isolation between the world of computers and internet from the world of essential services. In order to make sure that the two do not mix, we must purposefully use independent and different standards, perhaps starting with 11-bit bytes...

This unreliable internet can still be used for games, entertainment and pornography, but not at the expense of our basic communications, or power and water supply and the like.

Trump, the mans very existence questions are voters to be trusted to say who should lead us? America has a weird electoral system, some claim they would demand a different heaven after death, but, let us wait and see IF Trump has achieved any thing, if any thing changes, and at our peril, never forget the part China played in this maybe break though

Isn't the simple fact that China is there, and always will be there, a major problem with demilitarising the entire Korean Peninsula ? i.e. it's under no pressure to demilitarise; i.e. the crocodile laying there, just waiting for the littlies to finish their game ?

Look out for some Chinese sabre-rattling over Taiwan, IF the US pulls forces out of South Korea (and maybe Japan). Expect hurried visits to Washington from the Taiwanese president and the Japanese Prime Minister. And maybe the South Korean president as well.

Joe

I wonder if there has been another person in history that has constantly resulted in egg poured all over the face of the leftist media. Surely he deserves a medal for that. The more they pour dirt on Trump the more popular he seems to be getting. How refreshing.

runner,

According to Gallup polls -

Trump's popularity has been steady since his inauguration.
Fluctuating between 40% approval to more recently 42.1%
approval. It's never been higher, but its also never
been lower than 36.4%.

His disapproval rating is currently at 51.8%.

For Trump's approval rating to get much higher than 50%
he would need a significant crossover support from Democrats.
For it to get much lower than 35% he would need significant
number of Republicans to turn on him.

Still history tells us that Presidential approval ratings
behave in a relatively unreliable fashion. And predicting
the future is a risky business at the best of times.

If, and it seems possible, Trump is found to have dementia, his followers will blame the Democrats for it, if he is to achieve any thing it will be by leaving office for the final time

Dear mhaze,

Sigh.

You wrote;

“The ceiling for troops in SK is 28500.”

Then why did your Commander in Chief quote 32,000?

You wrote;

“The last games ended recently. I said the next games are due up to a year form now. You said they are annual games which means the next games are due up to a year form now ie we are either both wrong or these other games that you've 'discovered' are minor level games. Either way, asserted that I'm wrong and you're right when we said the same thing is revealing.”

What? Are you serious?

The wargame called Foal Eagle with South Korea and the US is the largest in the world and is conducted annually. Me referring to this did not exclude others but its size meant this was the one which created the most tension. You said the next war game was not until next year. I corrected you and now somehow I might be wrong? Get a grip.

Insults? You started with clueless and I sent it back with interest which is why you cracked the sads. So let's park the “But he started it Miss”. The next thread can be entered into with a clean slate and let's see how we go from there.

I dunno STEELEREDUX...

I've never been able to work out why they call it 'War Games'. The war I was in, was certainly no 'game' I can attest to that.

Hi O Sung Wu,

i.e. testing weapons and tactics. Some testing joint exercise or other every few weeks, involving many thousands of US and South Korean troops. With two million North Korean troops and the Chinese military apparatus prominently in place, is that any surprise ?

No, no games,that's for sure. But surely, one of the last cards you would throw away ?

Oops.

And the Chinese crocodile sits back there and waits .......

Did we notice? the leader of North Korea is back in China again, getting his orders, maybe even a pat on the back? from the real power that bought him and Trump together, what has been achieved, and who benefits is not yet clear

Hi there STEELEREDUX...

Imagine for a moment if you will, and I'm certainly no expert in modern remote firing/detonating guided weapon systems, if just one of those weapons was fired in either direction by either party on the Korean Peninsula, what would happen? Irrespective it may've been purely accidental? Talk about taking a knife to a gunfight.

I'm not so sure either, whether our odd friend in North Korea is the real power therein - or whether he's merely a front for those hard core Generals you often see pictured behind him? Sure they allow him to pretend he's the hard man of the Party, perhaps for some strategic or tactical reasons? I'd be most interested to hear what the American CIA have really made of the man?

Dear o sung wu,

Well he did attend a military academy in North Korea after high school in Switzerland. That earlier school was English speaking and it seems his grades were not brilliant but he was an avid basketballer.

I think in countries where the indoctrination levels are so extreme such as NK that the leader would be fairly safe. The Cult of Personality does have its advantages.

However I think both Kim and Trump see value in acting unpredictably so your fears may not be unreasonable.