Admiral Philip Davidson, due to take over the responsibility for co-ordinating U.S army, navy and air force actions in Pacific Command, which includes the South China Sea, says that “only armed conflict” can now prevent China from closing international sea lanes in the South China Sea. Everything is now set up for Chinese warships and combat jets to be introduced into the artificially created facilities

Australian warships in the SCS were confronted by the Chinese navy last week. Despite a ruling by the international arbitration court, China has illegally constructed artificial islands and bases after claiming sovereignty over the 3.5 square kilometre area. And, the West, including Australia, has just looked on, bleating about 'rights’ of passage.

It seems that we are going to need more than polly-speak to deal with China, but our inept and kow-towing politicians might have left it too late to deal with an arrogant, aggressive communist country they cannot bring themselves to believe in.

Typical of a hard right warmonger, this Admiral Brassbottom character can say “only armed conflict”. The truth is the Americans as per usual are itching for another war. This time with the new enemy China, what is China's real crime? They are becoming economically too powerful, and this threatens US dominance of the world economy.
As for Australia, "Australian warships in the SCS were confronted", what a sycophantic bunch, doing the dirty work as we do for our political masters in Washington.

"It seems that we are going to need more than polly-speak to deal with China" are we, ttbn is all gung-ho and ready for battle! Unfortunately the days when a gunboat sent up the Yangtze would be enough to scare the "bejesus" out of the yellow devils is long gone.

Wake up Australia!

It all seems pretty stupid to me.
Sure, China has expanded its military presence, but is it offensive or defensive in nature?
Given the US history of provoking, starting wars, and undermining other nations it feels threatened by (funded by endless debt citizens must repay), China may simply be acting 'prudent'.
They're a developing nation and have the world's manufacturing, they have no reason to be hostile unless the West acts against them.
With the US constantly sanctioning others and always dictating to everyone else and constantly looking to pick fights should we be surprised China built up a military presence there?
And what are we going to do?
Arm every man woman and child in the country to go fight China, at terrible odds?
Support the US and act tough sailing our ships around.
Our trade with our them and other Asian neighbours is more important.
Stupid waste of time and money grovelling to a US that has become toxic and irrelevant in every way, except for having a big military; that consists of outdated / overpriced / problem prone equipment and weapons..
- Time and money that would be better spent on our own national infrastructure, like China has.

AC,

Paul's idealogical idiocy is par for the course; but I am surprised by your attitude. Do yourself a favour and download Clive Hamilton's book from Google. Trade with China is NOT more important than our security against a totalitarian, Communist aggressor. And get used to the idea that we need America on our side more than ever. We are totally incapable of defending ourselves alone.

At this moment, Australia has enough fuel for only 50 days. What happens if - or when - China closes international sea lanes in the South China Sea!

As member of the International Energy Agency, Australia us SUPPOSED to - is REQUIRED to as a condition of membership - to have 90 days worth of fuel on hand. As far as I know, Australia has never had that much on hand.

So, let's all poke our heads up our own backsides and leave our fate to China, shall we?

ttbn,
"At this moment, Australia has enough fuel for only 50 days. What happens if - or when - China closes international sea lanes in the South China Sea! "
UN sanctions against China, probably. China knows this, so it's a very big IF, not when.

It wouldn't affect Australia's fuel supply, as that comes from Malaysia, Indonesia, Singapore etc.

UN sanctions against China? His naive can you be, Aidan?

Wake up Paul !

Are you so naive that you don't realise that China's intention is to 'domesticate' the South China Sea ? Perhaps I shouldn't use such big words: what they clearly want to do is declare that all of the South China Sea, up to the borders of Singapore and Indonesia and the Philippines, Chinese national territory; on incredibly spurious grounds, to declare all of that sea to be exclusively Chinese; to make all maritime traffic passing through that area at least defer to Chinese ownership, and more likely to cough up transit fees; and to recognise the right of china to militarise the entire area.

On what grounds ? International courts have judged such actions to be illegal. What is the Chinese justification ? That, once upon a time, a Chinese ship sailed through that area and may even have landed in the Philippines and in other plans yes, ergo ......

Any historian of the region knows that there were all sorts of traders busily criss-crossing the entire area between the east India coast (the Coromandel coast: that's where it gets its name from, Paul), to Japan, to eastern Indonesia, even to Papua, certainly to the Philippines. Hence, for one thing, Hindu kingdoms all over south-east Asia, and even an ancient Hindu temple near Manila. Hundreds of years ago, before Cheng Ho, even Thailand and Japan were busily trading goods by sea with each other.

And of course, as the wonderful NZ scholar Peter Bellwood has pointed out over decades, the entire coastal regions of all of those countries, Vietnam, southern China before the Mings, the Philippines, Thailand, what is now Malaysia and Indonesia, were trading between each other, perhaps out into the Pacific. If anything, the Chinese were not only very much latecomers but - after Cheng Ho - the mandarins destroyed all of his maps and shut the doors on their ten or twenty years of international trade.

While the Chinese may be well up themselves these days

[TBC]

[continued]

While the Chinese may be well up themselves these days, it's worth remembering that, since about 600 AD, China has been under foreign control, Mongols of different groups, Manchus, for more than half its history. Even the Mings may have originally been foreigners, perhaps even Christians. I suspect that Chinese history is far, far shorter than they like to trumpet, say 2500 years or less. And certainly, they've never been much of a maritime power. Sailing a ship to the Philippines doesn't give you the Philippines. Cheng Ho must have had to fight his way between Indian, Sri Vijayan, Mataram, Thai, Arab, Ceylonese, Vietnamese, Burmese, Japanese and Kampuchean ships to find a berth in the Philippines.

And if the Yanks wanted to pick a war, they could hardly have picked a worse place for themselves, with their supply lines now stretching thousands of miles. Perhaps they're left it far too late: with hindsight, perhaps Obama should have acted more decisively five or six years ago.

Joe

ttbn,
Much less naïve than your treating China closing international sea lanes in the SCS as a "when" rather than an extremely remote "if".

Hypothetically if China did do something so incredibly against its own interest, I think a coordinated response of sanctions is far more likely than either rushing headlong into WW3 or doing nothing.

Hey ttbn,
I was going to add 'unless someone can explain to me why it is important', and I probably should have.

But why does it matter, seriously?
Are you planning on travelling to China by boat?
Should we expect be be invaded by China at point in the future?
In my opinion the only reason the Chinese would act against us is if we support the dying throes of a US that wants to keep global hegemony when its manufacturing is dead.
And don't forget the Chinese have a military pact with Russia, if there is a global conflict I honestly don't believe the US will win. If the US and Allies cannot win a wider conflict against Russia, China, Iran and North Korea, then I doubt they can successfully defend us.
- In that scenario, there won't be any point whinging over immigrants, because we'll become the half-way house of the planet when the northern hemisphere is completely radiated.

Do I want to be ruled by the Chinese? Hell No!
Hell No to all foreigners, you know my stance.
(And the 'Lesser Evil' can go and get stuffed too)

Letting them overstep their boundries on my home soil is a different matter though,
I'll be all over that like a rash pushing the boundaries of 18D...
What do we care about the South China Sea?
If there is resources there it wont benefit us.

We are more likely to wear crosshairs supporting the US.
The US aren't going to start manufacturing again anytime soon, they're done.
They are more likely to provoke a nuclear exchange rather than anything else.

And if we're so dumb that we lack contingencies for longer than 50 days then it proves we're lead by complete idiots.
What the hell are our ships doing there if those are the risks?

To ttbn [Con't]
We're probably not capable of defending ourselves even with America's help either, though it must be said we are completely unarmed and most snowflakes would likely shoot themselves or one of us by mistake if they were armed and faced enemies on our soil.
Do you really think it will happen?

You know I don't go in for any of this American Exceptionalism, American Interventionism, Israel First, New World Order, Outright Socialist / Communist ideology, UN targets, Corporate media, Global Banking, Global Government type stuff.
I won't trade one foreign master for another, I hate them all equally; Australia first and everyone else can go jump.

So why does it matter?
Why must I support the US and it's illegal global wars of aggression and imperialism?
Especially when I don't believe it's the right path?
Why and how am I wrong? - If I am?

I'm sure there are arguments why I might be wrong, but what are they?

“Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces."

It seems that I should bear that quotation in mind before I decide whether it is really worth starting a thread on OLO. I’m not sure if some people are being deliberately obtuse, or they just don't get it.

I'm not sure if you meant me ttbn, but I was being honest and sincere when I said this:

"Why must I support the US and it's illegal global wars of aggression and imperialism?
Especially when I don't believe it's the right path?
Why and how am I wrong? - If I am?"

You're asking me to support a 'lesser evil' in supporting the US
- that I know is corrupt to the core -

It feels like a feces sandwich?
Where it doesn't matter which half of the sandwich I choose I'm gonna have to eat crap.

AC,

Who do you think will help us if not the US?

What are these “illegal global wars of aggression and imperialism” being waged by the US?

The US is no more “corrupt” than any other country, and it is a paragon of virtue compared with China, which thrives on corruption, denies its citizens democracy, and murders them by the hundreds annually for any offence it pleases. I am stunned that you hate America to the extent that you will not condemn China’s obvious aggression.

Your unreasonable hatred of our ally America has blinded you to the real threat from the Communist dictatorship of China, with which we have nothing in common, and with which we share no values whatsoever.

Hi AC,

You may have a point, that China's “illegal global war of aggression and imperialism” has little to do with us, except perhaps the tariffs that it may charge on any goods travelling through its now-domestic seas, and the fact that militarising the Spratleys brings them closer to Australia by a couple of thousand miles.

And maybe you're right, that the whole thing may be inconsequential, the region is still far away from us, and there is little reason for us to pay any attention to what is going on so far from our shores.

No more than any concern we should have for, say, Czechoslovakia.

Joe

Joe,

AC is talking about the U.S's apparently illegal wars, not China's. He is determined to maintain his rage against America, and he is just as determined not to learn anything China.

I have heard a recording of a Chinese Navy challenge to an Australian aircraft.
The Chinese operator came up and ordered the aircraft to leave the area,
in a very firm voice and good English.
The pilot replied that he was an Australian aircraft in an
international free area and exercising
right of navigation; or words similar to that.
He was ordered to leave the area.

China has seized and declared an area right down to Indonesia and has
already had a confrontation in Indonesian waters with the Indonesian Navy.
As Bob Katter said last night, the Chinese are not coming;
they are already here. The Nth West of Australia is already owned by the Chinese.

Hi Ttbn,

Yes, just because international courts have declared China's build-up and militarisation of reefs and shoals far from its own shores to be illegal, doesn't necessarily mean that the US isn't still planning wars somewhere. Just perhaps not in the South China Sea.

After all, like Czechoslovakia, ghat's is a long way from the US too. Why should they worry ?

About reefs and shoals: people forget that New Zealand was once administered from New South Wales, until it was taken away from us. Some of its reefs and shoals earned a strong place in many NSW hearts, and we weep to see how much the fascist NZ government is neglecting and mistreating them, our own 'Sudetenland' [children, ask your grandparents]. We may have to exercise this new Chinese principle and take them back, our beloved territories, into the arms of their proper motherland. And then militarise them, and declare the entire Tasman Sea Australian.

Cheers,

Joe

See,

http://www.udemy.com/courses/language/chinese/all-courses/?utm_source=adwords-learn&utm_medium=udemyads&utm_campaign=NEW-AW-PROS-US-DSA-SubCatPage-1-EN-ENG_._ci__._sl_ENG_._vi_TECH_._sd_All_._la_EN_._&utm_content=deal4584&utm_term=_._ag_60674449131_._ad_267594256052_._de_c_._dm__._pl__._ti_dsa-497381488447_._li_9071709_._pd__._&gclid=CjwKCAjw8r_XBRBkEiwAjWGLlN_Niq3lhzfgprDJjBYtGQmqVirPEJOChxOj9iGg3o-q3GRklwCPQxoCuywQAvD_BwE

and learn!!

Thanks, Is Mise - so useful !

Joe,

It's not about the U.S, which is our ally and a member of the Anglosphere: it's about the threat from China to Australia. At the very, very least, the U.S is not a threat to Australia. Australia is totally incapable of defending itself, and I can't think of any other country that can help us out, despite any of its faults and problems.

Hey ttbn,
Who do you think will help us if not the US?

Why do we need help and what do we need help against?
Are we expecting a foreign invasion force or a missile exchange?
- Nothing that could not be seriously deterred against with ABM's or Anti-ship missiles.

Or are we going along with the US because if we don't they will try to destabilise us like they do everywhere else?

"The US is no more “corrupt” than any other country, and it is a paragon of virtue compared with China, which thrives on corruption, denies its citizens democracy, and murders them by the hundreds annually for any offence it pleases."

First you say the US is no more corrupt, then you say China thrives on it, which exactly do you mean?
US no more corrupt, or China more corrupt?
Please explain this 'Paragon of virtue'

The only difference between your statement and the US, is that the US murders FOREIGNERS by the hundreds annually for any offense it pleases, even just to sell more munitions.

"I am stunned that you hate America to the extent that you will not condemn China’s obvious aggression."

I most certainly don't want to be ruled by communists and by the way their social credit system is going to be the future global model anyway, where do you think all this leftist push and banning speech is headed?

But where do you think we get all our stuff from?
If we are at war with China for more than a week this country will be stuffed anyway because we get all our stuff from there.
Hello is anyone home?

[Cont.]
Let me ask you this, you don't support the excessive immigration (and me - no matter how I sound I don't hate foreigners just for being foreign or a different race - I'm against rampant multiculturalism and I don't like them being used to destroy our culture and identity, and then have them call us racist and used against us all for some globalist banking agenda) but where do you think they came from?

Answer = US wars and regime change operations
Is that fact lost on you or do you actually believe the 'Arab Spring' garbage?
You recognise the problem ttbn, but I'm not sure you recognise the cause.
The other side of that is UN agreements which say we can't so no to people who come from sh*tholes.

You all want to rely on the US to 'save us'
Tell me do you support the endless cost of the military industrial complex upon the backs of US citizens?
When they don't even have proper healthcare for their citizens?

Name China's illegal wars. Tibet maybe?
With the US we could start with oh say Ukraine, Libya, Syria, throw in Iraq since that was all based on lies too.

Maybe you don't want to consider the cause because that would place into question your support for Israel, where a lot of this has started.

I won't challenge yours or anyone's support for Israel, thats up to you but I won't hide or remove myself from 'the bigger picture'.

And right now there a wholesale slaughter of Palestinians going on by Israel which is going completely unreported (using illegal munitions)

Honestly, I'll criticism any country or nation that I think is doing the wrong thing, ESPECIALLY my own - but I also try to look at the bigger picture.

China probably is guilty of taking more of that sea than it should, but given the US track record, and on face value and without looking at all the details, I'd still argue it may be prudent rather than aggressive.

Sorry, AC. You will have to sort out your own problems. I am not qualified to help you, although I can say that you could try doing more reading.

My problems? No, I don't share them here.
This is about the decisions OUR nation makes and the direction it takes as we move forward into the future.

Tell me what goods do we rely on the US for?
What do we even need a military for if invasion of this country could be completely thwarted now or in the future by:

1/ any ship full of troops being sunk before it ever got close to us,
2/ ABM to stop any incoming missile threat
3/ Nuclear deterrent of our own, to lob back any any fool that tries.

You'd need a fairly comprehensive plan if you were to even consider invading and occupying it in its entirely.

If we had those three things, we DON'T need the US for ANYTHING.
But we certainly DO need trade with our Asian neighbours, because they supply all our stuff.

You think I'm anti US, but where do you think I get all my information from?
Answer = Americans, (Some supportive of Israel, some not.)
Alex Jones (Austin, Texas) - Infowars - Now the number 1 internet radio show.
Bit of a shill for Israel, but will criticise them sometimes.
Mike Rivero - (O'ahu, Hawaii) - What Really Happened Radio Show
He is openly critical of Israel's policies, but he explains his reasoning for doing so.
George Webb - (Manhattan, New York) - Has his own Youtube Channel and supports Israel, but exposes inner workings of the deep state.

I challenge anyone to watch these programs daily and not instantly become wiser to the ways of the world and better informed.
I take in all this info, then I look at the pro's and con's of each issue on its own merits.

How exactly does wasting money sailing crappy ships around the sea trying to provoke a war on behalf of a dying US that's focus is regime change and colonialism to prop up its decimated economy (that produces nothing the world uses except exporting death) help Australian interests?

If you give me a reason then maybe I'll change my position.

Australia....Insignificance trying to be relevant by trying to maintain an Anglo alignment which will never be to our benefit.
No one need invade Australia which, on it's present course, has only one direction to go in and that's to beg the US to adopt it....and then, you can truly say goodbye to the 'lucky country'
This 'pick me','pick me' disposition makes us the laughing stock of the region.
Unfortunately delusional Australians see themselves as bronzed Anzacs whereas the region sees us as bronzed buffoons forever on holiday in Bali covered in tattoos and no pot to p'ss after having sold the family farm.
'Mericans travel the world seeking each other with their loud obnoxious voices,..... and Australians travel the world avoiding each other for the same reason.

Special Delivery,

With your attitude to Australia, you should be looking for somewhere else to live. Alternatively, you could go into politics where your contempt for Australia and Australians is shared.

The only things wrong with Australia are its political class and people like you.

ttbn,
thank you for your suggestions, well meaning I'm sure
and who is it that votes the political class into power.....the elves?....the enlightened?....the jingos?...the freeloaders?....the unionists?....the entitled?....and you?

China will never invade Australia militarily, as it is doing well with its financial invasion.

Australia's military are of no consequence against an invader as they lack the means of stopping any nation that has but a fraction of China's power.

China doesn't have to invade Australia, it just has to block sea lanes to Australia. And, it already has our politicians in its pocket. Someone naively suggested that the UN could help us - completely ignoring the fact that China has already ignored the international arbitration court's ruling on the illegality of its claim to the South China Sea, as well as the fact the China has veto rights in the corrupt UN.

What are the facts surrounding the Cairo Convention?
http://youtu.be/kgi6HZRJIbU?t=17m6s