I read a few days ago that apparently American President
Donald Trump has invited the Russian leader Vladimir
Putin to the White House when he rang the Russian leader
to congratulate him on winning the election.

Are they going to play golf in Florida. Are they going to
divide any "real estate" together? (joke), will they play
any "war games?" or even send rockets into the stratosphere?
Or will it all be "fake news?" Trump style?

So many questions?

What do you think? Any ideas or suggestions?
Opinions please.

Dear Foxy, my opinion ?

Good thing I think, for the issue of global peace, at least on the European side. He's really got the Chinese p#ssed off with him over tariffs.

But... the neo-con military industrial complex folks won't like it one little bit!
Trump is seen as a threat to their profits, & the Obama/Bush/Clinton Liberals will be seething.

It would not surprise me if poor old Donald "got the bullet" JFK style before too much longer....perhaps a dodgy nerve agent sanga at the knees up with Vlad is more their style ?

Foxy if you could just shed your left colours glasses for a moment, you might be able to see what a brilliant job Trump is doing for the average working class yank, as distinct from the elites.

Trump & Putin getting together is great. They are both very smart hard working people, who might find they, & their countries, have more in common than they have differences.

There is a pretty good chance they will find a lot of common goals, & can work together to achieve them. We would all benefit if they can.

Trump? I'm sick and tired of hearing about Trump. Our own 'leader' has just lost the 30th poll. The Coalition is like a rabbit in a spotlight. The alternative Shorten makes Joe Stalin look like a conservative, and Australians want to talk about a foreigner we can't do a thing about. Weird!

The only thing about Trump of interest to me as an Australian, is that I would prefer him to the rubbish politicians we have any day.

ttbn, as I've said before, most Aussies don't care about their own country, we are apathetic beyond contempt for the majority.

If it doesn't involve the cost of a schooner at the local pub, the price of a carton of Winnie Blues, or the score at yesterdays AFL/NRL game, most Aussies would not know a buffalo was up them until it pulled out and its horns rubbed their ears.

When I try to explain about this to people, they more often than not will reply with some 'rights' that we have as Australians, that this or that is in "our" Constitution, but when they elaborate on this it is the American Constitution they are quoting. Say for instance the 2nd Amendment (regarding guns etc). Many children know where Nebraska is, but would not know where Wyalkatchem in WA was.

This is what our minders want...dumbed down, ignorant and compliant drones who believe what is shown on TV every morning and evening. Unquestioning imbeciles who will vote Labor or Liberal or Green.

It is a sad commentary and a reflection on contemporary Australia that we have become so.

But what if Putin & Trump meet ? Would it not be a momentous event in history if their differences could be put aside and the common goals of all Americans & Russians could be celebrated ? That the threats of some nuclear event could be forever taken away ?

Yep and I just fell off my Unicorn with laughter. I can hope that some good will come of it, but I doubt that the vested interests will ever let it go ahead.

Dear Foxy,

Of course Trump wants to invite Putin to the White House, after all he was the person responsible for Trump gaining the presidency.

Dear Hasbeen,

You wrote;

“Foxy if you could just shed your left colours glasses for a moment, you might be able to see what a brilliant job Trump is doing for the average working class yank, as distinct from the elites.”

Bulldust and you know it.

Luckily for us you seem to be a superb judge of character. Scott Pruitt, the man you so lovingly shined the shoes of has been caught with his nose so deep in the trough, racking up hundreds of thousands of dollars in first class travel, paying peppercorn rent for luxury living in a home owned by a prominent fossil fuel lobbyist, that he has redefined the meaning of the word 'swamp'.

You also wrote;

“Trump & Putin getting together is great. They are both very smart hard working people, who might find they, & their countries, have more in common than they have differences.”

I certainly agree with the last part but for the rest it is tripe. By Trump's own measure he is hardly hard working. He told the masses he was going to be “working for you, I'm not going to have time to go play golf”.

What a load of bollocks. Here is the real story;

http://trumpgolfcount.com/

Geez mate, you do have a bad case of the Cult of Trump don't you.

I agree with all of that Albie. The obsession with sport (mainly as spectators) is the one that irritates me. The buggers only spectate on life, too.

I suppose considering my ancestry - (parents fleeing
from communists, their family members being sent to
Siberia, and my uncle being murdered by the Red Army - he
was a high school kid and not involved in politics). So,
it's no wonder that - I am rather dubious
about anything to do with Mr Putin - whose recent
election was supposedly rigged. Of course it would be
lovely if world peace was to come about because of the
meeting of these two people - but deep down there's an uneasy
feeling of mistrust. I feel
the event will be used to Mr Putin's favour. Giving him a
shroud of respectability that he does not deserve.

George Bernard Shaw said, "I learned long ago never
wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig
likes it."

Nicolas Werth, French historian and one of the authors of
"Livre noir du communinisme" ("The Black Book of Communism"),
says the communists killed at least 100 million people in the
world. During his lecture at Vilnius University, he said
communism was born in Russia because this country had no
democratic experience. During many decades, one-third of the
planet's population lived under communist regimes. "The closer
the country was to the center of repression (Moscow), the more
the models of reression were similar to the Soviet ones:
public trials, tortures, killings, deportations," he said.

Virtually no one has been called to account for what was done.
The West has chosen to forget these horrors. Nothing of these
horrors is taught at schools there. There is no grand museum
in Washington, D.C., dedicated to those whose lives were
destroyed by the communists.

No Communist Party bosses in Russia have ever been made to pay
for their transgressions. Not one Labour camp commandant has
been forced to answer for his inhumanity. There is no talk of
reparations. The Kremlin objects whenever anyone raises
questions about the injustice of the past.

Can Mr Putin, an ex KGB officer really be trusted?
Perhaps Mr Trump should listen to his advisers.

cont'd ...

Before anyone praises Putin - they should read the book,

"The Man Without A Face: The Unlikely Rise of Vladimir
Putin," by Masha Gessen. It's a chilling account of a
ruthless man.

Dear Foxy,

I loved that: "George Bernard Shaw said, "I learned long ago never wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."

The puzzle is: in relation to Trump and Putin, which one is which ? I would revise that quote, replacing "pig" with "snake".

Yes, you're right about the constant Russian/Tsarist/Bolshevik/Putinesque grasp for power and empire. Every political change in Russia has been merely an overlay on that underlying obsession. Ivan, Piotr, Lenin, Stalin, Putin - variations on a common theme.

Russia is economically as relatively powerless now as it was maybe four hundred years ago: its economy is roughly no bigger than Italy's or even Australia's. Yet, I think, Putin will run rings around Trump: he will schmooze him, suck up to him, but wrap the infantile Trump around his little finger. So the leader of a piss-ant economy and society will shove it up the leader of 'the free world', who will love it.

Meanwhile, Xi's empire in China steams ahead, titting Trump's tariffs with tats of its own, or at least the threat of them, with Xi knowing that the US under Trump presents an easy mark. I wouldn't be surprised if, in a couple of years, most countries around the world will learn how to go around both Putin and Trump, who will be like dog-turds in a flooded gutter. Trump will drive the US into irrelevance. As for what Putin does to Russia, who cares ?

Love,

Joe

Dear Joe (Loudmouth),

Welcome back. I've missed your postings.

As for Russia's future? Don't get me wrong.
I'm not for one minute anti-Russian. It's the
regime.

And I do care about Russia's future.
I care very much. My gran (on my mother's side)
was Russian (from St. Petersburg). And one of
my daughter-in-laws, her background is Russian.
She was born in Australia. So you see there is
a family connection. A very strong one.

I hope that Mr Trump will be encouraged to listen
to his advisers this time (and not sack them).
And fingers-crossed that sanity will prevail.

Hasbeen, how can you tell Foxy has left leaning specks on when you suffer total rightwing blinded itis in both eyes...lmao

Anyone who thinks Trump is doing a good job must be asleep...lol

There are several complexities to the Trump invite.

Whilst, a reasonably intelligent President of the USA, might have some objectives...Trump isn't that type of President...lol

Most people in the West, except Hasbeen, would see Trump as nothing but high risk.

His son once said... “Russians make up a pretty disproportionate cross-section of a lot of our assets,” Trump Jr. said at the time. “We see a lot of money pouring in from Russia."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2017/02/15/donald-trumps-ties-russia-go-back-30-years/97949746/

Now anyone who knows anything about Russia, except Hasbeen, realises that nothing gets done without Putin's approvals. The Trump businesses has been getting Putin approved Oligarch moneys for years...Some even alledge Russian mob moneys.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrJzf6eUSWA

So with current investigations ongoing all this detail will come out because you just have to follow the money and the trails are apparently very clear.

Trump doesn't criticise Putin because after Trump's presidency is over, and if he isn't in jail, the Trumpsters will still need that source of finance.

Is Trump trying to protect his post-Presidency businesses?

The problem is so much power is vested in the President...It is scary.

Can anyone, even Hasbben, trust Trump? https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2018/01/02/president-trump-has-made-1949-false-or-misleading-claims-over-347-days/?utm_term=.7810e704c687

Trump is no national security expert, probably more a complete and utter unprepared novice, and he ignores those employed by the USA, who specialise in this field, undermining them every day.

So the question is does the USA need to be subjected to such a risky meeting? Putin would out think Trump all day everyday.

The meeting will happen because Trump is out of control but nothing good will come of it.

It has been said that the chlorine gas attack in Syria this week was emboldened by Trump saying he wants to get out of Syria. To any thinking person except Hasbeen who doesn't think, this would seem a distinct possibility.

Hi Foxy,

Dialog between leaders is always a good thing, hopefully if nothing else it gives them the chance to meet, and possibly see the other guy is also human. However if the 6 o'clock news should show the pair having a punch up on the White House lawn, then we could be in trouble. On the political smartness meter Putin is 10 points ahead of Trump, and I think a better street brawler as well, so The Donald might be in trouble on both counts.

The Trump/Putin relationship is interesting, they are in many ways very much alike. Putin defiantly supported Trump for the White House.

The real interesting one is going to be the meeting between The Donald and Cousin Kimmy in North Korea. I can just see it now;

The Donald to Kimmy; "I love dim sims! and I can see you're a real dim sim.

Kimmy to an Aid (in Korean); "Who dis shot head? Nuke New York!...NOW!

End of meeting.

Mr Trump is fond of blowing his own trumpet , and I am fond of hearing it.

It's great to read the various contributions.

I've been doing more reading on the subject
and researching the opinions of various
journalists who have covered both Putin in
Moscow and Trump in Washington to see what
their take on things is.

I've come across the link listed below which
I found interesting and well worth a read:

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/04/09/julia-ioffe-global-politico-217835

Julia Ioffe, we're told is a Russian born reporter, one of the
few to have covered both Putin's Moscow and Trump's
Washington. And she writes that she's scared.

She writes - "I'm very scared." "The reason I'm scared is because...
in the Cold War there were kind of protocols and rules developed
and lines of communication, and there were just - the way things
were done... Now, you have two guys Trump and Putin who are both
painted into a corner, strategically, both at home and geopolitically, who are very prideful.
Both very kind of emotional
knee-jerk decision makers, to an extent and I worry that they're
both going to start clawing their way out of their respective
corners and that that's going to lead to a lot of collateral
damage."

"In a confrontation she argues Putin may well prove a smarter
actor on the world stage than the American President,
who had started out hoping to be friends.
You know this isn't his first rodeo and
this is not his first US President, whereas Trump is still kind of
getting his sea legs. And this is kind of the built-in advantage
of an autocratic system, where Putin knows how to do all this, and
he's kind of a better tactician and kind of a better strategist.
Putin's going to outmaneuver Trump and the US."

There's more on the link.

Dear Diver Dan,

But when the sound is gone all we are left with is hot air.

Foxy,

As the saying goes, better jaw-jaw than war-war. Talks don't always end in agreement, but they do improve understanding even with North Korea.

Given that Russia has supported Assad through roughly 130 chemical weapons attacks and that Trump is almost certain to authorise a military assault, a face to face meeting is probably far overdue.

Putin outmanoeuvred Obama because he could count on Obama wimping out, perhaps Trump's unpredictability will make Putin rethink the risks of his belligerent actions.

Dear Shadow Minister,

One can only hope.

However, if I was a betting person, I still wouldn't
like the odds as far as Mr Putin is concerned.

meanwhile the rest of the Arab world just watch and expect America to clean up the hellhole in Syria caused by warring factions.

Dear runner,

Mr Putin supports the Assad regime while America supports
the separatists - so it should make for interesting talks
between the two.

In any case the one that will benefit out of all this
- is the armaments industry. The
winner on both sides and human lives don't seem to matter
as long as big business and the oligarths line their pockets.

apologies for my typo.

It should be - oligarchs.

Trump's negotiating tactics are generally unorthodox for international negotiations but for example, China who has been using the WTO to pry open western markets while refusing to open its own has blinked in the face of potential tariffs to the US market.

Proof that in negotiations one needs the stick as well as the carrot.

Dear Shadow Minister,

I agree with you about the stick and the carrot.
But we're thinking like Westerners.

If the carrot being offered to Mr Trump
will be bigger than his stick, will Mr Trump still
use his stick or will he forego it. That is the
question. My bet is he will forego it. He, after all
likes only "good deals," which translate - to - if
he benefits. Money as they say in the US - "talks!

The conceptual differences
between democratic traditions and totalitarian systems
are so great that to me it is inconceivable that the
two would work for their mutual benefit in any matter
involving international political issues (don't even
mention human rights). The US would have to do a great
deal of acquiessing. But at what cost?

I think you conflate the profits made by arms manufacturers and the horrors done on the people in Syria by Asad and others Foxy. No doubt all sorts of people win and lose with war. Many UN ngo's had benefited greatly as 'peace keepers' while pillaging and raping. Even with your dislike for Trump you could not really believe that he would get any enjoyment out of watching this suffering inflicted by barbarians.

cont'd ...

I forgot to add that Trump can't use either carrots
or sticks without the approval of the Congress and
the Senate and the support of his allies.

Putin is another story.

As one reader put it on the web:

" Trump changes his tune by the minute, incredibly
inconsistent with his views and statements. All
traits of a pathological liar!"

Foxy,

I get that you don't like Trump, but already China has blinked:

"Chinese President Xi Jinping has heralded a new wave of “openness”, pledging to allow foreign companies greater access to China’s financial and manufacturing sectors, and signalling lower tariffs on cars in a move to neutralise a damaging trade war with the US.

Mr Xi, speaking publicly yesterday for the first time since the trade dispute erupted between China and the US, championed globalisation and China’s plan to continue improving access for foreign interests.

China had announced late last year it would take measures to raise foreign equity caps in the banking, securities and insurance industries. “We will ensure that these measures are materialised,” Mr Xi told the Boao Forum for Asia conference yesterday.

The Chinese leader, considered the most powerful president since Mao Zedong, said the communist nation had already effectively opened up the manufacturing sector, other than for cars, ships and aircraft. “These industries are now in a position to open up. Going forward, we will reduce as soon as possible limits on foreign investment in these industries, cars in particular,” Mr Xi said."

To some extent, Trump has achieved what Obama, Bush and Clinton had not.

Australia is all upset that China wants to establish friendly military relations with Vanuatu, if you don't know where Vanuatu is, they are our near neighbors to the north east, out there in the Pacific Ocean, lovely people. Been there a few times, and like so many of the Pacific Island nations, its a case of happy, but poor people, living in paradise.

For China to establish a military presence in the country, it will be in exchange for much need aid. I don't want to see militarism develop in the Pacific, but for Australia and New Zealand to get all indigent about it, it would be wise for us to look at the amount of aid we give to these poor countries, its not a lot. In the case of Vanuatu its under $70 million. Australian foreign aid has been cut to an unacceptable level in recent years. Now many of our poor neighbours who have suffered because of that, are looking elsewhere for assistance, who can blame them

Dear Shadow Minister,

You need to look at just more than one side of the coin.
When you get out the "big stick" as far as trade with
China is concerned, you also need to consider how this
will affect your own country's economy and your own
American people.

The link given below shows how - in the event of an all
out trade war, prices will rise and Americans will lose
their jobs.

Ron Kirk, the top trade negotiator under former President
Obama stated, "I am concerned." "Ultimately the cost of
increases in tariffs are borne by American business and
consumers that use those products."

We're told that "If Trump continues his hard nose approach the
worst case scenario looks increasingly possible."

http://time.com/5231193/trade-was-trump-china/

Dear Shadow Minister,

Taken from the Los Angeles Times:

"A President who relies on threats as a negotiating tactic
has to follow through on them at some point. Otherwise they
have no credibility. And China appears perfectly willing to
call Trump's bluff and let a real trade war begin. After-all,
it has many other outlets for its goods, and its state-owned
industries are far more tolerant of disruption than US farmers
and publicly traded companies are."

"That's why Trump should have taken a different approach
from the start, working with other trading partners to bring
broad sanctions against China that would be hard to cirumvent
and carry real consequences for XI."

"In a statement Friday morning, the administration said it is
exploring that path too, bringing a complaint about China to
the World Trade Organization and 'working with allies also
affected by China's unfair behaviour to restore fairness to
global trade."

"Such efforts hold more promise than Trump's ever escalating
tariff threats."

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/editorials/la-ed-trump-china-tariffs-20180406-story.html

Foxy,

For starters, the article you quoted is nearly a week out of date, and the news of today flies directly in the face of the LA times analysis.

Secondly, as China already has high trade barriers protecting strategic industries and China's economy is still largely reliant on exports of which, sales into the US is a large portion, China is far more vulnerable than the LAT indicates.

Thirdly, the acceptance of China's dictatorship is largely dependent on the rapid standard of living improvement and economic growth from the state's shift to capitalism. If this were to stop or even reverse, Xi and his cronies positions would be far less secure.

Paul,

Seriously, China plonking a military base essentially giving them control over most of our trade routes is bad news especially given China's recent use of its military to expand its territory, and given that much of China's "aid" has been in the form of high-interest loans to use Chinese firms to build white elephants.

Dear Shadow Minister,

The link may be a week old - but the facts are relevant
and haven't changed. That's why I used the LA Times link.
President Xi Jinping is ready to fight back hard if the US
counterpart - Donald Trump wants a trade war. We're told that
due to Trump's approach the
trade dispute won't be resolved quickly despite Trump's
optimistic tweets.

I suggest you Google more on the subject yourself.
There's plenty of
recent links available that say the same thing as the
LA Times opinion piece especially over
the high-tech industry.

The facts don't change that a President who relies on threats
as a negotiating tactic will have their bluff called out.

Foxy,

"Chinese leader Xi Jinping’s unexpected offer of a highly significant olive branch on tariffs suggests that Donald Trump’s unconventional and improvisational conduct of US foreign policy, while much derided, may be working. As maddening as that prospect will be for hyperventilating Trump haters, North Korean despot Kim Jong-un’s sudden change of heart in not only agreeing to meet Mr Trump but also saying he is willing to talk about denuclearisation also suggests the US President’s unique brand of threats and tweeted bluster is striking the right note — or, at least, starting to deliver results."

Just a bit of information for those who like to keep up with USA politics here is a site that fact checks all manner of comments including Trumps.

Trumps record on accuracy is very low!

http://www.politifact.com/personalities/donald-trump/

I have found this site very helpful at times.

Hope it helps.

OP2 and Foxy,

I am not a fan of Trump, but having studied negotiating strategies while doing my MBA, and while long-term relationships should be negotiated with mutual benefit and fairness in mind, occasionally, when one side is intransigent, things need to be shaken up.

For decades China has been given unfettered access to world markets whilst blocking off and charging tariffs on incoming goods, safe in the knowledge that western governments were reluctant to raise tariffs.

Trump's bellicose behaviour has shown China that there will not be business as usual, and either it has to change or risk a hugely damaging trade war. So far it looks that China has blinked, and Trump has achieved something that no one else has.

Dear Shadow Minister,

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.
History will judge this man accordingly.
His "achievements" will be noted and tabled.
Hopefully, years from now - there will be
lessons learned from the "Trump experience."

Foxy,

You are entitled to your opinions, but the facts speak for themselves. Trump has achieved at least part of the outcome he was trying for that Obama and others failed to do.

Trump has not yet applied any tariffs on China, and no trade war has started.

I doubt whether any good outcomes will come from the way Trump negotiates via Twitter...lol

Sometimes though, even fools stumble onto an accidental method that may bear a result. That is not good tactics that is a mistake that works...lol

Trump's reputation as a teller of untruths and a falsifier of fact hardly means China and North Korea will take him all that seriously. If he is a good negotiator why is he isolating the USA from it's other trading nations?

Other western nations are already treating the USA as a bit of a modern day irrelevancy...which is sad because we need a strong America. Like when Reagan was in power the world is laughing BUT with Trump the consequences & risks are far greater.

Trump is simply a misguided and ill-informed protectionist and to pretend otherwise is to have your head in the sand.

Trump can't keep staff so there is no stability and if the Republicans aren't careful - their brand will be damaged for years.

Trump will throw anyone under the bus at any time because in the Trumpland in his head he is the only person worth considering.

Live in hope if you wish BUT some of us prefer to see sensible, stable and understandable government rather than the fingers crossed approach.

Putin must go to sleep laughing at the craziness he and a few of his hackers have caused...

Putin will eat Trump for breakfast.

In the minds of the naive and foolish Trump was going to solve all the Us's problems and so far he has been a dismal failure. There is no hysteria about Trump. He was going to drain the swamp but now we know he has lowered the IQ of the swamp...lol I mean look at his selections for cabinet positions...lmao

He is simply a person no-one with an IQ over 90 likes or trusts.

OP2,

Do you feel better now after your rant? I would suggest that you steer clear of any news to avoid having your bubble collapse.

Dear Shadow Minister,

Here's a link from someone who knows Trump well:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-04-10/u-s-china-talks-said-to-have-stalled-over-high-tech-industry

Dear OP2,

Thanks for that.

Trump has lied and committed adultery and yet still is a million miles ahead of Obama and Clinton. Get over it regressives. Trump is making you look more stupid every day. Anything on Russia yet? Impeachment yet? Thays right, nothing to see but the uranium sold to Russia by Hilary/Obama. No wonder you are so desperate to bring up mud on his past sex life. Good to see you finally believe what you have always denied (ie private philosophy affect public policy). Shows why Hilary certainly wasn't a suitable President.

Shadow M...You seem to be the one who needs to stop watching the news...You aren't getting any facts from it...lol

Apparently when you do the Pro Trump Shuffle that isn't a rant but common sense and logic is a rant... Look in the mirror buddy.

I hope you softly softly Trump lovers, OOps sorry admirers or what ever you are are planning for the next war...Trump has a big button apparently...Bigger than other peoples...lmao

We have two crazies squaring off in Putin and Trump at the moment and that is one way to stop the Russian probe... Scary but true.

Remember this the day before 911?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVpSBUgbxBU

Not a bad way to stop an investigation...The investigation never happened, although Rumsfeld lied and pretended it did - and all that extra money went into arms and war and the killing of many innocents in Arab countries.

If you drink and drive you are a bloody idiot... If you think Trump is anything but dangerous...you qualify again...lol

Now go back to watching Fox News and leave the thinking to others SM...lmao

Yep, SM is well known for getting all his "news" from the no news Murdoch gutter press. He has a lifetime subscription to 'The Daily Telecrap'. Tell us SM who is your favorite, Beat Up Bolt, or Bigears Crakerman?

Dear runner,

You're just silly!

Thanks Foxy however I would need to recheck my post if I had your endorsement.

Dear runner,

For my endorsement to occur you'd have to post
something of more substance than just your usual
drive-by comments.

OP2,

Perhaps when you pull your head out of your arse and stop spouting crap you might fire up that vestigial organ between your ears and realise that the world is not black and white. No one is 100% good or bad.

Trump may be a despicable bully and a crook, but after Putin, Assad, Xi and Kim Jong-un had essentially taken the erudite and diplomatic Obama to the cleaners, Trump's bluff and bluster have got concessions from both China and N Korea, and put Russia and Syria into a corner.

If this doesn't fit in with your dogma then too bad.

Sounding a bit fragile there Shadowy one...lmao

I think you suffer from Premature Praise giving...lol

So why are you so fragile...Oh I know you really are a Trump supporter but too afraid to say it...It's OK we don't have any high expectations from you anyway so don't be ashamed...lmao

Trump may qualify as a modern day Nero if things keep going the way they are.

The world is laughing at Trump and his supporters and yet they are also terrified that this narcissist has so much power in the most powerful country on the planet.

The problem is with him in charge they have actually lost respect and power.

Putin is a very clever operated and was in the background when Gorbachev to keep his eyes on the new leader who was making modernising changes in Russia.

This guy simply gets others to do his dirty work so he can say to poor old Trump that he didn't do it and unbelievably Trump believes it.

Of course Trump has made a career of saying I didn't do it and paying people out so of course it suits him. Also he got the benefits from the Russian election tampering and morality isn't one of his strengths.

OMG! Runner Trump is just another topic that makes you look stupid. I'm waiting to see a topic where you don't look stupid..lmao

Oh I did see one...It was a thread that you didn't post on and boy did you sound much smarter on that thread with your silence and non-posting...lmao

See there is a God...lmao

Runner,

Foxy doesn't get the fact that you would start to get worried if she and her ilk ever agreed with you.

OP2

Up to now, your posts have been vacuous and fact-free, but with:

"Putin is a very clever operated and was in the background when Gorbachev to keep his eyes on the new leader"

Your style is full on retard.

I am torn between pitying you or ignoring you.

Dear ttbn,

What does ttbn - stand for?

BTW: Don't make assumptions about what I do or don't get.
You've not got the capacity to do that. You're way out
of your league. Stick to what you actually may know -
limiting as that may be.

Dear Shadow Minister,

The Brookings Institute is a century-old American research
group on Think Tank Row in Washington D.C. Here's a link
on President Trump:

http://www.brookings.edu/blog/fixgov/2018/02/09/is-president-trump-irrelevant/

"Washington is now realizing that it has an infotainment
president - not a real one."

And -

"Are we entering a period in history, not unlike the period
between the Civil War and the Great Depression when presidents
were relatively weak and Congress ran the show?"

Oh Shadowy Trumpette...Sorry I didn't type a sentence perfectly so let me repeat it for you...

"Putin is a very clever operator and was in the background when Gorbachev was President to keep his eyes on the new leader"

As you probably know Putin was a career KGB agent. He was always lurking in the background through the Gorbachev and Yeltsin periods.

https://www.pinterest.com.au/pin/282389839107668258/

See Shadowy you can have your head in the sand OR you can think outside your narrow right wing biases.

Just be careful that you don't step too much further to the right because you might step off the planet...lol

Trump could be the first imbecilic leader in the history of the world to start a war via Twitter the way he is going.

The man is totally out of control and peoiple should be very wary of him.

Not you Shadowy - You just keep hoping for your next right wing Messiah to arise...lmao

Trump is the most divisive President in history and he is exactly the opposite of what the world needs.

Here's an interesting reaction of Mr Trump on Putin:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-04-12/trump-syria-response-putin-russia/9644704

Should the Baltic States and the Ukraine be worried?
Should we be worried?

Foxy...

Trump is damaged goods and a great worry to whole the world.

His Presidency is in total chaos and he is becoming more and more erratic.

He is now unstable.

This man will do anything at any time to divert attentions away from the Mueller investigations.

What started as an investigation into possible collusion with Russia has now branched out to all forms of corruption by the friends of Trump.

Even though right wingers aren't smart enough to understand that is how authorities like the FBI work. They follow various trails including money and electronic trails and see where they lead.

Would people respect the FBI IF they were investigating collusion and then found evidence of money laundering, bribery and attempts to pervert the course of justice and not follow through? Of course people wouldn't and the FBI should always follow through.

I do have a slight doubt however regarding how they handled Clinton and the 110? emails on her non-protected server that were deemed as National Security sensitive. I suspect if you or I did that they would have thrown the book at us. That is one of the big bug bears of the right and I may have some sympathy for it.

Also they are investigating the Clinton foundation apparently and I think Billy (womaniser) Clinton personally and the foundation have both received moneys from Russia.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApcqXijVzYU

What a mess when money and politics are involved like this!

So what will other security organisations from other countries do now? They will be very wary about sharing intel with the USA because they have so many loose cannons and so many unintelligent people at the top of Government.

Hopefully saner heads will prevail but we should all be quite concerned if not a little worried.

This guy is chaos in a floating bad hair fail and the results of that chaos could be catastrophic!

No need to panic BUT we should be very wary.

Dear OP2,

Thanks for that.

When Trump first got elected - I just couldn't believe
it, but then after a re-think - and having lived and
worked in LA for close to ten years, I realised -
"Only in America," he's the American dream. In his case
though -
he's turned out to be a nightmare. I used to believe that
he'd settle down once in office. No such luck.
The man can no longer be simply laughed off. He's a danger
to us all - and frankly should simply be removed from office.
The sooner the better.

OP2 RTRD

Didn't type it properly, it wasn't just spelling the entire sentence was garbage. It isn't just that every post is drivel, they are also laced with grammatical, and spelling errors. Face it, you have the IQ of a squirrel.

What is clear is that you are yet another superficial left whinger that idolises the mass murderer and dictator Putin who makes Trump look like a choir boy.

Now we have conspiracy theories about the FBI.

Have you left school yet?

OUCH!...Shadowy you just proved my point...You are very fragile... Never mind didums...lmao

Go cuddle up with your right wing messiah's list and suck your thumb for comfort...lmao

I'm as much a left winger as you are an intellect and I am no left winger...lmao

So you think I would like someone as devious and manipulative and as ruthless as Putin? Wow! You sure aren't good at assessing people but you are embarrassingly open when you show yourself to be 100% wrong.

Don't worry it is a right wing nutter trait to be wrong like you!

I don't have any conspiracy theories about the FNI. They are doing their job...hence the charges they have laid against the Trump brains trust with many more charges to follow.

Watch and learn dufus...lol

I'm sorry the facts are crushing your Barbie Doll world... It's OK we understand. I bet you think you are a Ken doll in real life or even a GI Joe...lmao

Don't feel shattered just know you are 100% wrong!

OUCH! Don't be so brutal...You could break a nail...lmao

Poor wittle wetard trying to have an intellectual battle when he is essentially unarmed!

It looks like your idols President Putin and Arsehat cocked up again and got their facilities flattened. Brain-dead left whingers 0 Allies 2.

President Trump has ordered strikes on Syria over suspected
chemical weapons:

http://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/13/world/middleeast/trump-strikes-syria-attack.html

Will Russia counterattack on civilian or military cybersystems
in the West?

OUCH again Shadowy you are a brutal Barbie Doll...lmao...I have found that people who call others retard or abbreviations of that nasty word generally are shallow, fragile, unimaginative buffoons... TY for proving me correct again...lol

Foxy,

Hopefully these new bombings are as they say, highly targetted bombs directed at the Chemical weapons stores and manufacturing plants that were alleged to be used against civilians in last weeks attacks.

I wish all countries would get rid of all Chemical weapons but alas the industries that create weaponry are to powerfulfor common sense to ever prevail.

Anything is possible in these tit for tat times and Russia has found that the USA for all it's innovative power simply can't protect their computer systems.

It is the old gorilla war thing...If you can't beat them in a front on attack in groups to weaken them continually.

Of course with the lunacy of Nuclear War sitting in the background perhaps we should be a little, but not a lot happier, if these protagonists use IT nerds to mess with each other.

The West was always going to do something. Of course the Lbs will be chomping at the bit to get involved in some way knowing them. I doubt they will have the discipline to stay neutral whilst still supporting the west with diplomacy on the side lines.

Maybe we should change all politicians, in every country, to a majority of women and see if they can do better.

We men are a bit too keen to beat our chests and send our young people to war, as proven in the past, so maybe the "loving mother" approach would do much better.

No one truly wins in wars and we humans just haven't grown up enough to realise it yet!

Rtrd2

Dreaming up conspiracy theories to explain your wrongness? It must really suck to be a left whinge retard at this point.

There's a couple of things that need to be considered
with the attack on Syria:

1) How seriously will Russia and Syria take what has been done?

2) Will air-strikes alone achieve US objectives in the
Middle-East?

3) Does the US as a holder of chemical weapons have a moral
right to blame other countries?

4) Will the firing of missiles make any difference in the
long run?

5) If the Trump administration is not wanting to turn its
back on the suffering of men, women and children - then
surely it can't continue to ban refugees from entering
the US. Isn't it time for the US to reopen its doors to
people trying to escape the violence in Syria.

This will do for now.

Your thoughts please.

Poor Shadowy,....you must have broken two nails to come across as so hurt...You brave little soldier you...lmao

Foxy,...Im no conspiracy theorist but I had this thought.

Could Putin have initiated the gas strikes in Syria in an attempt to divert the media attention from the Trump investigation? '...Or...to add another layer of complexity in an already disheveled USA?

Putin is claiming innocence again so he now has to cover his tracks with lies to save face. He will take all this very seriously but he will keep his eye on the main game....His influence in the Middle East and a USA in chaos.

I think the gas attack was a major mistake on Syria's part and Putin will feign upsettedness but still be playing games in the background. Assad is just a puppet so watch Putin for Assad's response.

It depends on what one calls the USA's objectives in the Middle East. Whilst everyone is looking at Syria no-one is paying much attention to Israel. I suspect Russia and the USA want similar things in the Middle East... A distabilised region where they can play put their pecker fight on poor long suffering little countries. I suspect the hidden aim of the USA has always been to have bigger countries to become smaller countries along ethnic lines in the Middle East.

The missiles from both sides won't have much long term effect unless someone does something really nutty. Putin and the Olygarchs can't spend their ill gotten gains from the Russian people if we go to a full scale war. I'm sure they will choose to remain rich and to be able to holiday in style...lol The West doesn't want a war either so it will be same old same old after a bit of heavy duty saber rattling.

The refugee argument is the biggest problem for all countries.....The majority of people in most countries don't want them because they see Muslims in Western countries as totally incompatible....I doubt Russia takes a lot of refugees so I suspect Putin will love the problem he is causing in the west.

Cont...

cont...

Since 2011, it is reported that Russia has only given one Syrian refugee status even though they are knee deep in the problems...

https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/russia-refuses-give-refugee-status-syrians-180116095003651.html

Putin has played the West for dummies for ages and passed the refugee problem on to lots of other countries. That is why we have to chase peace in the Middle East so refugees can go home.

The anger against refugees in the world isn't abating but getting worse.

That is what makes us hypocrites...WE expect others to come here and blend in as it were and yet when we stole Australia from the Aborigine we didn't blend in we stole the lot...OUCH!

I still think the Wsets wants smaller countries in the Middle East so they can play the divide and conquer game ad infinitum.

If only the West hadn't have followed Bush and Blair into Iraq much of these problems wouldn't have happened.

That is what you get when you follow people who are religious zealots...They are never the sharpest tools in the shed!

Iraq was always going to end badly and it sure did...Again I think the underlying aim of the invasion was to divide the country into smaller countries along ethnic lines!

To Foxy.

The refugee issue is overwhelming most countries that have opened their borders to them. Some have started to try and restrain refugees coming in or close their borders completely from refugees. I think Australia has many voice their refugee concerns already on these forums, and whether to shut the border.

What would be the best would let them have their own home that isn't in a horrible ongoing war. Since that's not available there really isn't any good option. Opening borders to any large volume of people will invite crime and instability while the new residents come to terms with their new homes, and their new homes come to terms with their new residents. It doesn't help if the new residents have an ongoing culture that hates the western cultures of most that are opening their borders to them. That's basically the crap hole we're all in.

If they at least welcomed their new homes and their children welcomed their new homes (in any country they relocate to) then the burden would be greatly lessened. There would still be crime and instability, but not to the degree of what many countries are recoiling from after opening their borders.

I can't really say Trump (or any other county's leader) is making the right decision, because as far as I can see there is no easy answer that is the obvious right decision.

Foxy,

1 That Russia is calling an emergency meeting of the SC would indicate that it is taking the attack seriously. Syria thought that they could get away with using chemical weapons if Russia was protecting it, but now knows that Russia won't lift a finger against the US.

2 No, but who thought they would or even intended to?

3 The action against Syria is not for holding CWs, but for using them against civilians.

4 The use of force sends a message that there is a price for using CWs, just as Obama's failure to do anything sent a message that the world would do nothing. I don't think that the message was lost on Russia either.

5 What has this to do with refugees? In fact, as the war looks like coming to an end the refugee crisis should be grinding to a halt.

RTRD2

"Im no conspiracy theorist but I had this thought" then dream up the wackiest conspiracy theory I've heard in years.

1 For god's sake get spell check.

2 No wonder you hate being called an idiot as it must happen a lot.

Shadow,

You are talking like Assad and Russia have been proven guilty of recently using CW's as accused, when in reality no evidence has been shown to prove they have.

Think, it's like the false news Iraq had WMD's.

Whatever happened to British Justice, innocent until proven guilty?

Yesterday after the 3 nation missile attack on Syria the US Secretary of State was being interviewed and he didn't even know what type of chemical was (allegedly) used at Douma.

Now today there are camera crews in amongst the 3 nation attack rubble and nobody seems worried or affected by poison chemical residue.

What was attacked, a swimming pool chlorine factory?

I think Putin should go to meet Trump in front of witnesses and live camera so people worldwide can judge who is leading the world into war, perhaps nuclear war.

According to the link listed below -

"The man holding the best cards in Syria is still Russian
President Vladimir Putin. The Russian military is dug
deep in Syria, where years of its support has helped solidify
dictator Bashar Assad's grip on power. In a country where US
policy has been confused and contradictory, Russia has single-
mindedly focused on keeping Assad in power, analysts said,
making any US attack either unnecessarily risky or not
strong enough."

There's more analysis on the link:

http://news.vice.com/en_us/article/kzxk89/putin-has-the-upper-hand-in-syria-and-trumps-team-probably-knows-it

I don't think that Putin will be getting invitations to the
White House any time soon.

With that in mind - I'd like to Thank everyone for their contributions to this discussion. For me at least, it has now run
its course.

Cheers.

Foxy,

The US has a number of bases in Syria in Kurdish held areas. An attack was launched on one of these bases recently by Syrian forces backed by Russian mercenary forces. The attack was obliterated with between 200 and 300 Russians killed, and since then no attacks have occurred on or near the US bases. Russia is heavily invested in Syria and has thousands of soldiers on the ground and has suffered a large number of casualties and the cost of $bns. Noticeably the Russian, Syrian, and Iranian forces have subsequently given the US supported areas a wide berth.

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-02-16/russia-attacked-u-s-troops-in-syria

While Russia has the largest force in the area it is also the most exposed, and comparisons can be made to the US in Iraq.

Dear Shadow Minister,

According to an article in, The Guardian, Apr. 14, 2018,

"There has been speculation before the raid that Russia
might retaliate. However the assumption is that Moscow,
having declared the impact of the raid as minimal, is
unlikely to respond militarily. It could retaliate at a
later date in another part of the world or through a
cyber offensive operation ."

"Russia, as anxious as the UK to avoid escalation, did not
respond to the raid with air defence systems around its own
bases in Syria. The US said it did not target any Russian
built air defence systems and had only hit air defence
systems being operated by Syria."

And the band plays on.

See you on another discussion.

How can two leaders from what is arguably the two most powerful countries on earth, betting together face to face be a bad thing when the world is on the verge of Armageddon.

The two leaders did meet face-to-face at the G20 Summit and
spoke for over 2 hours. Unfortunately, nothing changed
as a result. We're back to square one. No Soviet leader has
ever acknowledged their mistakes and Mr Putin certainly is not
about to. Here's what the Washington Post wrote after that
meeting:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/global-opinion/wp/2017/07/10/why-deciding-to-move-forward-with-putin-is-a-big-mistake/?utm_term=.a8e9a64da735

Sorry for my typo. Here's the link again:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/global-opinions/wp/2017/07/10/why-deciding-to-move-forward-with-putin-is-a-big-mistake/?utm_term=.a8e9a64da735

Foxy,

While negotiating with lying scumbags like KJU and Putin is different to negotiating with reliable partners, it can still be done. The difference is the complete lack of trust, which requires verification.

Without negotiation, we would not have resolved the Cuban missile crisis, START or Glasnost etc.

Dear Shadow Minister,

No in this case I have to disagree with you.

With any two other leaders perhaps it could
be done. But not with these two. Both are
liars and cheats to the core.

Have Western allies acknowledged their mistake of going after weapons of mass destruction that did not exist, killing hundreds of thousands?

Putin is the one who is now looking like a level headed world leader.

How long will it ve before a rebel or terror merchant plants poison chemical to instigate another US allied attack and maybe kill Assad?

Considering nuclear war is likeky, Trump and Putin should be meeting and talking.

Perhaps more would be achieved after the next
American election if the leadership changes.
However I have very strong doubts about the
current American leader's abilities to achieve
anything of any substance - especially with an
old deft hand like Putin who knows how to play
the game so well.

Dear Foxy,

I suspect that Putin will play Trump for the vain braggart he is and support his likely bid for a Nobel Peace Prize IF he withdraws the US troops from Syria, and leaves the field from Afghanistan's borders to the Mediterranean to Iran and the Russians. Of course, then it would be on for young and old between the Shi'ites across that region, and the Sunnis to the north and south of it.

But no biggie, Trump might get his Prize. Pity the poor bastards in Syria.

As for the Koreas, I suspect that China, South Korea and Japan (and maybe other Asian countries) are working away at developing a broad Non-Aggression and Mutual Economic Development Pact between all of them and North Korea, perhaps at a Conference in Hanoi or Ulaan Bator or Singapore, to which the US may not be invited.

But at least, even then, Trump can claim that he has forced North Korea to the table, and deserves another Peace Prize: that's the way to do it, folks - threaten to bomb the crap out of a country, call its leader 'fat boy' and 'little rocket man', and claim that his button (and implicitly other bits) is bigger than Kim's. Yeah, that might do it.

Or maybe not ......

Love,

Joe

Dear Joe,

I watched 'QandA' on the ABC last night (30th April, 2018).
It was an interesting panel from the Writers' Festival in
Sydney. Quite a few Americans, especially journalists
espousing their views. The writer, Masha Gessen's take on
things was especially useful. She's originally from Russia,
and now lives in New York. She wrote a book about Putin. So
she's seen both sides of the coin so to speak.

I found the commentary rather depressing.
With a rather bleak outlook for the US under this President.
What I don't understand is, how come he's still in office?

Hi Foxy,

i just came across this quote from Niall Ferguson's 'The Square and the Tower', a history of networks and hierarchies, well worth reading. It's from Alexander Hamilton, one of the US founding Fathers:

"A dangerous ambition more often lurks behind the specious mask of zeal for the rights of the people than under the forbidding appearance of zeal for the firmness and efficiency of government. History will teach us that the former has been found a much more certain road to the introduction of despotism than the latter, and that of those men who have overturned the liberties of republics, the greatest number have begun their career by paying an obsequious court to the people; commencing demagogues, and ending tyrants." [p. 116, Ferguson]

Wow, how's that for foresight ? More than two hundred years before the event ?

Love,

Joe

Dear Joe,

Thank You for the quote.

It is very apt.

And, it matches what Peter Costello expressed in his Memoirs.
He wrote:

"My eighteen years in Parliament - in Opposition and in
Government - have confirmed me in the conviction, formed
in my youth, that politics, for all its rough edges, is a
civilised and civilising calling. Despite all the obloquy
shovelled on the head of politicians, they are men and women
who work the machinery of our liberal democratic way of life.
They reflect public opinion - and at their best lead public
opinion - and transmute it into laws that shape our society
and our country..."

Cosatello listed the problems our country faced and he stated
that "We must deal with these to move forward as a free, fair,
and vibrant society. I have no doubt we can find the solutions
that suit us..." And then he added:

"provided we do not succumb to the siren calls of demagogues,
charlatans and ideologues."

And that is a warning that we'd be wise to take.

Thanks, Foxy, Political Theory 101 for Trump. Although a bit too late now.

Love,

Joe

Dear Joe,

I can't help wondering though - who are the Democrats
going to put up to run opposite Trump in the 2020
election? Surely it would have to be someone who's
not a celebrity, but would represent experience,
and stability. Is there such a person?

Dearest Foxy,

Yeah, out of 350 million Americans, who on earth could stand ? 10,000 universities or whatever, and there's no top academic, some widely-respected public intellectual (if that's not a contradiction) who could take it on ? We're stuck with Trump or Clinton or Oprah ?

Wait and see: I suspect that many Republicans like Ryan are dropping out of the mid-term elections in order to cultivate their profiles for a 2020 presidential bid. There may even be some less gormless Democrats who are thinking that far ahead; gosh, two and a half years away, that's an eternity. Will Hillary last that long, since there's no-one else ? Ridiculous.

Love,

Joe

PS. I watched 'Roseanne' on Monday night; it was so stilted, lifeless and contrived that I felt sorry for the cast, all just going through the motions.

Dear Joe,

It will be interesting to see who the Democrats will come up with
to run against Trump and also how they will view Mr Trump this
time around. Will he be able to attract voters again? Will the
same tactics be used in an attempt to win?

As for Roseanne? I tend not to watch American shows. I lean more
towards - "Inspector Morse," "Midsomer Murders." I'll be watching
"Britain's Got Talent," tonight. The one series of American shows
that I do enjoy is - "Sex and the City." Those I don't miss ona
Thursday evening. I like the story lines and find the shows
entertaining. The characters to me at least are believeable.

Last night instead of Roseanne - I was watching, "Diana to Meghan:
Royal Wedding Secrets," only because I'd seen "Inspector Morse,"
and "Midsomer Murders," previously. I've got to admit though that
I found the Royal Wedding program fascinating. A whole different
world. And then some.

Hi Foxy,

I suppose if Trump can get nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize for threatening to bomb the crap out of North Korea and ridiculing its dictator, and if Kim Jong-Un proposes to wind back North Korea's nuclear program in the face of American sabre-rattling, he deserves one too: a joint Nobel Peace prize, Trump and Kim.

George Orwell would be over the moon. Maybe not: he would probably weep, that his notions of double-speak have come all too true.

And since Abe in Japan, Xi in China and Moon in South Korea have probably been doing all the leg-work on this, why can't they get one too ?

I think this saga has a long way to run yet, and it may produce some very big surprises.

Love,

Joe

Dear Joe,

We certainly live in interesting times.

Interesting, but scary.

I worry about my grandchildren's future.