We are now in the month of April once again, and in a few short weeks it will be ANZAC Day. To be very truthful, I thought 25 April 2017 would be my last...well? The day to me is one of solemnity and reflection. To many others it's a day in which to celebrate; play two-up and generally hit the piss, and behave in ways that generally; on any other occasion, the coppers wouldn't tolerate.

The RSL of course; both on the weeks leading up to the Day, and the 25th April itself, like to be heard and flex their community muscles in order to lecture us all, on how we should observe the day. All the while some of the previous RSL executive in NSW, were robbing the League blind of the donations the community willingly gave, to assist in helping veterans. I've no time for the RSL at all, still that's for another time - The RSL doesn't 'own' ANZAC Day - You, the community does!

However, what does ANZAC Day really mean to you, and your extended families? To repeat the above, to me it's a day of solemnity & reflection? How about you and yours? Are you a Veteran, if so, please share with us, your own feelings on the Day. Whatever you say, I will respect your position, *absolutely*!

I will never understand why some people feel the need to analyse every regular event that is part of our culture. Year, after year, after year: Anzac Day, Christmas, Easter, Australia Day - you name, it has to be commented on, pulled apart, defended or denegrated. Immaturity is the kindest thing I can think of to explain it.

Hi there TTBN...

I must say quite a number of people might well agree with you. I think unlike Christmas & Easter ANZAC Day is more secular and devoid of any religious connotation. Although it could well be argued that it could have an overlapping effect with religion? Many prayers are said, and churches are usually pretty full on the Day

Personally, I lost a very close mate, so I see no need to 'celebrate' or jump about in order to commemorate his loss. So I'm usually fairly quiet even reflective when I remember him. Ironically he was at FSB Coral & Balmoral, and got out of there unscathed and was subsequently taken in an isolated ambush; go figure? He was on the M60 for his section. Thank you TTBN for your contribution.

o sung wu,

I don't usually march, although this coming one I may.
I reflect a bit as, like you, I lost a few mates.
One good mate was killed in Malaya, a theatre that I was not in, thankfully.
Usually, I watch the Sydney March on TV and look for old cobbers.

I will say one thing about Anzac Day. It is the only occasion when some, at least, Australians take a bit of pride in their country and give thanks for what a hell of lot of pain and sacrifice provided for us. It's a pity that it is all being thrown away by the rubbish in Canberra, with their multiculturalism and mass immigration of undesirables, their assault on free speech and ruination of the economy. And, hearing the Last Post is the only thing left that puts a lump in my throat.

Hi o sung wu, now 58 years after my own navy service, & over 3 years since my sons, I have to admit not all that much. My father never marched wanting only to forget his war.

It was not always so. In 54 as the senior cadet under officer of the Young high school cadets, I commanded the honour guard for the dawn service, which was pretty emotional. Then was amazed at the mile long procession & the range of units & services represented in the march in a town of only 6000 people.

I never went to war, so do not feel connected in the way those who did must feel. I do remember the few mates lost, but that was in accidents, so not the same.

From 74 to 76 I explored much of the Solomons & PNG, where such costly battles were fought. Even the Islands have mostly forgotten them. On Green Island, where 26,000 men were once based, there was only a short bit of the bomber strip to be found, now the island airport. There was much more around Rabaul, but the last volcano probably obliterated most of that too.

Places like Munda, & Honiara so little remains that it might almost not have happened. Perhaps that’s a good thing, although it’s said that those who forget their history are bound to forget it.

Hope you don’t find the day too painful old mate.

Dear O Sung Wu,

This day holds a very special place in many Australian
hearts. It is a time to remember the sacrifice made
by all those who have fallen. A day that remembers the
courageous soldiers who left us a powerful legacy.
A day to respect and honour all those who served our
nation.

The playing of "The Last Post," always
brings a lump to my throat.

"They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old;
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn,
At the going down of the sun and in the morning,
We will remember them."

Lest We Forget.

Bound to repeat it was what I was trying to say. I certainly hope not.

Hi there IS MISE...

Like you I don't march, mainly because I can't anyway. You've come from a very famous Regiment too IS MISE, 3RAR. Not only in the Korean Theatre, where you were, but Malaysia ; and South Vietnam. One of the most heroic and decorated Regiments in the Australian Infantry Corps. Whatever you choose to do, take care of yourself & thank you so much for your Brave Service in the Korean War. And many thanks for contributing to this Topic as well.

Hi there HASBEEN...

Thank you for your response. As a former Naval Aviator yourself, it's a wonder you never decided to persevere with your training, and travel up the road past Wagga Wagga and take a right at Forest Hills; into the RAAF Base.

You mentioned you couldn't quite master Carrier landings to the required standard, well the RAAF don't demand you have to land on a 'pitching' deck; only that you just land the A/C in one piece. They're a little more forgiving than the Navy people I guess?

You losing Mates, however the circumstances, is still a loss. Many of those Islands you mentioned in the South Pacific were made very famous during WWll. The only Island that I've visited, that was the subject of intense fighting between Japanese Imperial Forces and the US Military, is that of Guam. You've certainly been around ol' friend in the Yacht of yours.

Thank you for your very kind sentiments as well HASBEEN, I really do appreciate them.

G'day (again) TTBN...

I couldn't agree with you more. Many Aussies who ordinarily would be opposed to each others views and opinions, seem to come together more so on ANZAC Day than any other day in the Calendar. For the reason(s) you say, the Day does sort of unify most of us, which can only be a good thing, I believe. It's just a pity the same mechanism couldn't be found for the remaining 364 days, remaining for the year. Many thanks again.

Hello there FOXY...

Thank you for replying to this topic. Like you, the ethereal sounds of 'The Last Post' tends to effect everybody to a greater or lessor degree? As does the words to 'The Ode' which you kindly repeated for all our benefits.

Interestingly, my paternal Grandfather was in the Anglo-Boer War. My maternal Grandfather was in WWl. And I was in the Indonesian Confrontation & South Vietnam war. From memory my two grandfathers rarely spoke of their campaigns, neither did my Uncles and other close relatives speak of WWll. Quite interesting I would've thought.

Thank you very much FOXY for your contribution.

Dear O Sung Wu,

I imagine we all have relatives who have been involved in
wars. I tried for years to get mine to write their stories.
Of course none would. Many are now no longer with us. All
we can do is hope and pray that our children and grandchildren
will not be involved in another war. Though I won't hold my
breath on that. I just hope that I won't be around to see it.

I was in WW2. My father was in WW1. It is easiest to sell arms when there is a threat of war or a perceived need to keep an aroused people down. Prime Minister Turnbull has stated his desire to have Australia be one of the top ten arms exporters. What is he planning to do to create an atmosphere to develop and sell the blood-spilling devices?

I believe that both WW1 and WW2 could have been prevented if there had been a sufficient will to prevent them. I am saddened by the lives lost in things that need not have happened.

I regard Turnbull and others who would make money from blood as far worse than those who tamper with cricket balls.

On Anzac Day I mourn those whose lives were taken and think of my grandchildren.

Yes David f, when ever I see films of MacArthur I always wonder just how many tens of thousands had to die, so he could create the I will Return legend. They could easily have bypassed them as they did with so many in Rabaul.

Hi there DAVID F...

As always you bring an entirely different perspective to the table, in this case the peddling of weapons of war. It's often said, those who start war, are never those who have to fight them, for they merely stand by and determine how well their weapons of destruction went? Somehow I think that's an over simplification of the issue? In the case of WWll, it was a case of Britain's treaty with Poland I think that's what brought GB into the war.

As far as developing and selling arms to foreign markets I believe both Britain, the United States and to a lesser degree Australia, are all engaged in selling arms abroad. So I hardly think it fair that we here in Oz should shoulder all the blame?

I do agree with you, by us manufacturing of military hardware, does nothing but perpetuate the proliferation of the Arms industry, for the purpose of waging war(s). Thank you DAVID F for your sage contribution.

In 1923 Germany made a deal with the Soviet. Germans trained in panzers and aircraft on Russian soil. They built factories on Russian soil to produce these instruments of war. In return for the Soviet helping in the rearmament of Germany the Germans gave technical expertise to the Soviets helping the Soviet economy. This cooperation lasted until 1933. It resumed with the Nazi-Soviet pact in 1939 and lasted until Germany invaded the Soviets in June, 1941. The Allies could have taken action in the 1920s to deal with this, but the will was lacking. If the Allies had taken action World War 2 would have been prevented. By the time Germany invaded Poland in 1939 the time had been passed for effective preventive action.

Prometheus books has a book on the subject.

Well many thanks for that DAVID F I wasn't aware of any of this. Obviously your scholarship far surpasses anything I can offer on the Topic of the true catalyst of WWll. And how easily it could've been prevented had the Allies taken some action in a timely manner, when they were first made aware of it, back in 1923.

That being the case, would it have saved tens of thousands of Jewish Poles, who were destined to be sent to the Warsaw Ghetto and later, to the various extermination camps? If the Allies had interceded back in 1923?

Thanks DAVID F. for your contribution.

The book telling the story of German Soviet collaboration is “The Red Army and the Wehrmacht” by Yuri Dyakov & Tatyana Bushuyeva published by Prometheus.

The nations involved in WW1 rushed headlong into war thinking it would be a short affair with a clear cut victory instead of a long, bloody slaughter. The churches in most of the countries blessed the armies and supported their governments instead of working for peace.

The Great and Holy War: How World War I Became a Religious Crusade by Philip Jenkins tells that story.

“The Great and Holy War offers the first look at how religion created and prolonged the First World War. At the one-hundredth anniversary of the outbreak of the war, historian Philip Jenkins reveals the powerful religious dimensions of this modern-day crusade, a period that marked a traumatic crisis for Western civilization, with effects that echoed throughout the rest of the twentieth century.

The war was fought by the world's leading Christian nations, who presented the conflict as a holy war. Thanks to the emergence of modern media, a steady stream of patriotic and militaristic rhetoric was given to an unprecedented audience, using language that spoke of holy war and crusade, of apocalypse and Armageddon. But this rhetoric was not mere state propaganda. Jenkins reveals how the widespread belief in angels and apparitions, visions and the supernatural was a driving force throughout the war and shaped all three of the major religions—Christianity, Judaism and Islam—paving the way for modern views of religion and violence. The disappointed hopes and moral compromises that followed the war also shaped the political climate of the rest of the century, giving rise to such phenomena as Nazism, totalitarianism, and communism.

Connecting numerous remarkable incidents and characters—from Karl Barth to Carl Jung, the Christmas Truce to the Armenian Genocide—Jenkins creates a powerful and persuasive narrative that brings together global politics, history, and spiritual crisis as never before and shows how religion informed and motivated circumstances on all sides of the war.”

Physically I get up early and attend the local 6am Service held in the park, with a few hundred others. On a personal level, as a pacifists, I see it as a moment to reflect on the utter folly of war, remember those, not just Australians, but all, combatants, non-combatants, allies and enemies who made the needless sacrifice for something that one day will hopefully be nothing but a distant memory for mankind.

I have a dislike for those that drag us into wars, the politician, the fanatics, the power seekers, the money hungry, etc etc. always for the wrong reasons, but never stated. Some would think as an old antiwar war protester from the Vietnam days I would have a hatred for those that directly engage in war, the poor cannon fodder, I do not, and never have. I view the combatants as being as much a victim of war as those innocent men, women and children they kill. Deluded like most of the population into to believing they are fighting for some noble cause that requires the death of millions, being the ideals of freedom and democracy, when the real reasons are much more dishonourable, power and money. Unfortunately while ever there is war there will be innocent victims.

Hi there DAVID F...

What can I possible add to what you've said. I've always known that you've got an enormous intellect; from religious history; science & mathematics; and history in it's broadest dimension. I always thought the first World War was started by the assassination of the Arch Duke, Franz FERDINAND, the heir to the Habsburg throne, in 1914? Obviously I'm in error.

Thank you so much David F for once again enriching this topic with your terrific scholarship, I only wish I had just an ounce of your knowledge, if so, who knows what I might have achieved instead of ending up being an unremarkable copper.

Hi there PAUL 1405...

I'm very glad you decided to add your thoughts on ANZAC Day. I've known for some time that you've always been a pacifist and I respect your position. Though in times past I didn't always, as you well know. I've looked on the likes of MR Simon TOWNSAND a well known conscience objector to the Vietnam War, as a case of cowardice, but now I'm not so sure?

I do acknowledge you harbour no particular censure for the soldiers, sailors, & airmen themselves for the wars, but those at the top who tend to start them, and than fan the fires in order to keep them going.

And I reckon you're right in some measure ANZAC Day should also include the 'innocent lives' of our various enemies, but NOT including those who perpetuated War Crimes like the NAZI's and some from the Japanese Imperial Forces who ran the POW Camps.

I recall going through the remains of one of our Claymore ambushes, pulling out a small dirt encrusted plastic 'wallet' affair with a tiny 2" X 2" B & W photo of an asian group, ostensibly the blokes family, who knows? I suppose he was just like us, a grunt destined to fight in a very dirty war and as such entirely innocent of the bigger plans of Uncle Ho.

Thanks for your thoughts PAUL1405.

o sung wu,

Unlike you, I cannot 'respect' pacifists who know full well that they will be protected by people who are prepared to fight for freedom and democracy. Nobody in their right mind wants to be killed or to kill other people. But, to refuse to aid in the protection of what you enjoy along with everybody else is totally unacceptable and cowardly. Stretcher-bearing and all the others tasks given to cowards in the past doesn't take away the foul taste these people put in ones mouth. It's fortunate that future wars are unlikely to be waged by volunteers.

ttbn,

A lot depends on which war it is, WWII, I'd agree; the Korean War, was volunteers only in Australia so doesn't apply but the Vietnam War threatened no one in Australia and my sympathies were with anyone who objected to having their lives thrown into turmoil by a lottery.

I remember asking the Secretary of a particular Liberal Party branch what he was suffering from, he gave me a blank look and said that he wasn't suffering from anything.
I then asked him why he hadn't volunteered for Vietnam?

<<Nobody in their right mind wants to be killed or to kill other people. But, to refuse to aid in the protection of what you enjoy along with everybody else is totally unacceptable and cowardly.>>

So ttbn, do you support foreign aid coming from Australian taxpayers going to other countries?

Aid will total (in terms of taxpayer dollars) $4.01 billion in mid-2018 and remain static until indexation resumes in 2021/2022.

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/temporary-freeze-on-foreign-aid-from-2018

Hi there TTBN...

I was once a full subscriber to what you've said in your latest Post TTBN, when I was made to realise there are legitimate conscience objectors to war in our society. And far be it for me to say they're cowardly. In fact on the face of it, I think it would take quite a brave individual to accept all the criticism that's made about them, both to their faces and behind their backs. I'm no longer so sure about it these days. It took a pretty brave soul, to willing face down a month or two in; 1 MCE at Holsworthy, rather than do their National Service.

Such an individual was Simon Townsend, a former TV Star, who produced many Children's programmes until he fell foul of the Conscription Board in the late 1960's. He was publicly shamed and carted off to 1 MCE by the Provost Corps (you'd likely remember the incident) it was front page news in most Newspapers. Whilst it was true, he was released after about 48 hours (and from his photo's, he looked positively dreadful) it's a tough place to do gaol, nothing like being in Long Bay, nothing like it at all.

Funny story I will share with you - my Mother received this official looking letter that was address to me, which she promptly opened. It asked why I'd not registered for National Service? She contacted them immediately, and politely informed them, I'm sure my Son would gladly do his duty, but he's currently in Malaya serving with the military! I was with the ARA and was serving over there, prior to my deployment to South Vietnam. Obviously they got their records mixed up I'd say?

Dear o sung wu,

WW1 was triggered by the assassination of Franz Ferdinand, but the assassination would not have triggered the war had the nations not been ready for war. You are not in error.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_airliner_shootdown_incidents points to commercial aircraft shot down. These incidents could have triggered wars, but they did not because the nations whose aircraft were shot down did not want war. In like manner the assassination of the archduke would not have triggered WW1 had the nations involved not been itching for war. Jenkins’ book examines one of the forces that pushed the nations into war. Another reason for WW1 was that Germany wished to expand its own relatively small overseas empire by taking over all or a part of the vast overseas empires of the British and French.

An insight can be gained by reading Smedley-Butler’s book online.

https://archive.org/stream/WarIsARacket/WarIsARacket_djvu.txt

Hi there (again) DAVID F.

Thank you for a further explanation on the catalyst for WWl. It's very interesting how a serious of independents things converge and all hell breaks loose, costing millions of young lives. I was particularly interested to hear of some of the reasons Germany went to War, in order to expand it's territory, somewhat similar to the French & British.

I remember a large parcel of the African coastline, that hitherto was known as, German East Africa. Actually it was the length of the Skeleton Coast, and it proved to be a veritable treasure trove for the Germans, with the mining of Diamonds and other precious stones. However on the signing of the Armistice, they (the Germans) managed to lose it all as a penalty, in the form of a reformation payment, as a consequence of the massive damage occasioned, during Germany's prosecution of the War.

Thereinafter it became known as Namibia, with many German people electing to remain, and make a life for themselves in the new Nation. By all accounts the Germans were kindly task masters before the War, otherwise I couldn't imagine too many of them would wish to stay on thereafter.

Thanks again DAVID F.

Is Mise,

I didn't believe in conscription for the Vietnam war. I did not believe we should have been involved in the Vietnam war. The Vietnamese should have been left to work it out for themselves.

Hi there TTBN...

I realise you directed your remarks to IS MISE, but for what it's worth, most Vets that I know, including myself, would agree with you absolutely. We were brought into the war at the behest of the South, who proved to be thoroughly corrupt in the long run. Many received US citizenship, when in reality they should've ended up in Leavenworth, KS, if truth be known.

Hi, o sung wu, just to lighten up the topic, and something you might find amusing.

My "direct" link with one soldier who fought at Gallipoli, my Granduncle Jim. Uncle did not go ashore 25th April 1915, but arrived there in June or July of that year. Within a week he had been wounded in his testicles (uncle and auntie never had children, in fact uncle hated us kids). Uncle was evacuated for treatment, never returning to Gallipoli, but eventually ending up on the Western Front.

My story; When I was about 10 years old, one Sunday avo after lunch, Sunday lunch with uncle and auntie was a regular. All the adults had left the dinner table, and left sitting was only uncle on one side, and me. I plucked up the courage to ask uncle a question, (not the sort of man a kid could or should converse with).

My question; "Uncle, what did you do at Gallipoli?"

Uncle, looked to the left. and then to the right, to see if anyone was within ear shot, and then like some monstrous lion he came across the table and within inches of my face, then came the roaring reply!

"SON... I KEPT MY F'N HEAD DOWN!"

"by uncle... see ya," out the door I went, thinking, given the location of his wounding, the old B should have kept something else down. I'll never forget that one and only meaningful conversation I ever had with old Uncle Jim.

All's well that ends well, because of his war wound, uncle was put in the Messenger Corps on the Western Front, and didn't have to go "over the top", which probably saved his life.

'morning to you PAUL1405...

There's very view people who've been exposed to a 'firefight (battle) wouldn't admit to 'keeping his F'N head down'. When the ordinance starts flying it would take an absolute idiot to be silly enough to keep his head up, rather than dive to the bottom of his shell scrape believe me.

Whether at Gallipoli or the Western Front both campaigns were a veritable slaughter house, both for men and beast. And it would take much more courage than I possess to fight in either areas.

My maternal Grandfather was with the 30th Bn., 1st AIF, and it was said when he eventually returned home in 1917 he was an utter wreck. He had been gassed, wounded & buried in thick mud on 'the Front' and ended up spending the rest of the war in an English Hospital. In the late 1950's he was given a TPI, and died at age 67, hooked on Morphine for his war caused pain.

He never spoke of the war, 'ever'. When I came home from Malaya and Vietnam, I was babbling on, about what I saw and experienced, never thinking for a moment, how it must have distressed and affected him? What a bloody idiot I was at age 22!

Nearer to 80 now, I'd like to think I have enough sense and wisdom (hopefully), to realise he probably saw more horror in a single day, than I could ever see in either Malaya & Vietnam for the entire period I was in either country.

Thanks PAUL1405 for your contribution.

A loss is a loss....but to carry on as though the continued revival of that loss is beneficial to society as a whole is misleading and deceptive and is now to the point of being immaterial.
War reminds us of the stupidity on both sides of the conflict.
Wars only drain societies of their best so that the cunning can vote themselves into power

Hi o sung wu, only have vague recollections of the old uncle, for no reason he would hit us kids on the head with his rolled up newspaper. Vaguely recalling things like "The Turk wasn't a bad sort, only defending his homeland" and "Those Pommy officers were terrible B's" he would say.

The only stories of the war itself from uncle I can recall was about boys "going over the top" as he would call it, the poor buggers he would say, "It was better to be in the first lot than the second! because the first lot didn't know what was coming, the second mob, well they knew alright!" He spoke of boys, always called them boys, he spoke of the drinking of rum before the fight, a soldiers mug full, some needing a second cup, drunk charging into battle, boys crying and wetting their pants in the trenchs beforehand, (the pommy they could have been Australian) officers standing with sidearms at the ready to drive the "cowards" up the ladders and into the fight. I think that war made uncle a very bitter man for the rest of his life. After auntie died, he never recovered from the loss, he then took to heavy drinking and died an alcoholic.

Hi (again) Paul1405...

As did my Grandfather he was addicted to the Morphine the Doctors in England put him on in order to relieve his dreadful wounds and damaged lungs as a result of Mustard Gas. Upon reflection, I must admit: 'To go over the top' as it were; I don't know if I'd have the courage, knowing that a whole group of German machine guns awaited you?

Well 'SPECIAL DELIVERY' you have a point, one that I don't necessarily agree with. That said I'm really against all forms of 'Jingoism' I find it utterly nauseating. This nonsense the Aussie Digger was the best, the bravest, the fastest etc etc - is nonsense. 'We all bleed when where're cut' and I'm speaking metaphorically of course.

We, like all Nations have good, average, and bad soldiers, but they all do their best and some lose their lives in doing so. For that reason alone, they deserve this Country's greatest admiration & recognition for giving their lives for the Nation, in whatever Peacekeeping role or conflict they may be involved.

That's why we have an entire Federal Government Department, 'The Department of Veterans Affairs' (DVA), dedicated exclusively to looking after all Australian Veterans. And as it should be, for without our Servicemen & Women, out country would be soon overrun by any Nation with a mind to do so. Therefore all of us must remember;. 'Lest we Forget' on the 25 April 2018.

Also 'Special Delivery' some folk don't know what ANZAC stands for...'Australia New Zealand Army Corps'. Thanks for your contribution too. I appreciate it.

'This nonsense the Aussie Digger was the best'
Where did I say the Aussie Digger was the best?....I missed that part?
'some folk don't know what ANZAC stands for...'Australia New Zealand Army Corps'
which was back with WW1 with a resurgence in WW2 to sucker Australians back into another European fiasco and leave Australia open to a possible invasion.
I also remember National Service, courtesy of a lottery, where we were being shanghaied to Vietnam and then seeing soldiers in beds around around me in the hospital in Brisbane, with pieces of them missing, who never got their country's admiration and when it did come, it came begrudgingly simply because the RSL was getting thin on the ground at marches.
What was that you said about 'jingoism'?

Hi there SPECIAL DELIVERY...

With respect I would ask you to re-read my latest post. I was speaking in generalities, not referring to any particular point about you; other than I didn't necessarily agree with you. By inference you seem to imply you don't have much truck with the RSL, well neither do I.

I must say you seem quite angry about the whole notion of ANZAC Day, why may I ask? Are you a Veteran yourself of the Vietnam era? I shall patiently await your reply SPECIAL DELIVERY.

No I'm not a Vietnam vet, fortunately. I was in hospital getting a knee reconstruct when my platoon left Laverack Barracks for Vietnam. A war that wasn't a war but a conflict where people died and got maimed just the same.
In basic training I remember being told not to ask questions as to the legitimacy of our Vietnam involvement because they would upset the conscripts. Got charged, fined and kitchen duties for a week.
National Service was good in the sense that it made all aware that Australia was 'all of us' even if 'all of us' weren't Wasps.
When the govt saw that National Service had a detrimental side in that it galvanized youth and made them more vocal in their opinions not to mention the educational inequality in the ranks, it was scrapped.
But that didn't stop the 'merican bum kissing in future conflicts.
As far as the RSL, who once served a purpose, are no longer of any real significance and have been consigned to a 'once was' status.
If I resent anything it's that 'Australians' talk about being self determined and still remain cannon fodder and hole diggers.
The closest they came was the Eureka Stockade and nothing since then other than Whitlam and he was his own worst enemy.....when he looked behind him there was no one there.
ANZAC....do you see any mention of the UK and US in there?....well neither do I.

Hi (again) SPECIAL DELIVERY...

I get the sense you're really angry about those days, and the way our Country was literally abandoned by both the UK Govt. & the United States Govt. That was until the US wanted to use as as cannon fodder for Vietnam. I was a Veteran myself with one basic difference, I was a regular thus a Volunteer not a conscript. I must say the conscripts with whom I served, were by and large, brilliant soldiers and prepared to do anything that was asked of them.

I think ANZAC Day is a Day especially for our veterans, both those still living and those who've passed. Honouring & commemorating their service and the many sacrifices they're made in times of War. People forget, the soldiers didn't send themselves to Vietnam, or any other war zone; their governments did.

All they were responsible for, is carrying out orders. For this reason, I think it's morally wrong, that those groups who oppose any of these conflicts, should take it out on the servicemen themselves, when they should be targeting those who send them. I'm losing concentration; for that I'm sorry. I shall sign off if you don't mind.

Thanks again SPECIAL DELIVERY.

Thank you all, who've contributed to this Topic; I think it's run it's course by now.

Hi o sung wu,

As I have said, even as a pacifists, and as one who objected strongly to Vietnam, taking part in protests etc. I could rationalise what caused the involvement of the ordinary bloke on the ground in that shocking war, all wars are shocking, and therefore held no animosity towards the combatants. It is foolish to believe you can stop war by having all the solider lay down their arms, and that will be the end of it, its to late then.

Put it this way, I say WWII was unjust, all wars are unjust. The standard reply is, "well Hitler had to be stopped", I agree, but he should not have been stopped in 1939 or 1945, he should have been "stopped" long before he ever came to power. What happens if you put a lighted match to petrol? No need to answer that one. What happens if you put Hitler in an unjust society? No need to answer that one either. All wars can be prevented, but they have to be prevented long before the first shot is fired.

I might be philosophical and idealistic here, but if the world was as fair and just as Australia, we are not perfect by any means, then there would be no need for war, and no thought of war.

Paul,

How could we have stopped the Korean War from starting?

Sacrificed the South Koreans?

Anzac Day for me:

Seeing as my Dad served 1957 - 1972 (RAN), I served 1977 - 1988 (ARA) & 2007 - 2011 (ARES) with other stints as a Public Servant (APS Technical).

My Uncle served during WW2 (Tobruk & Kokoda), losing his other 3 brothers there.

My Grandfather on Mums side went ashore at Gallipoli aged 15 in the 2nd wave, survived this and further service on the Western Front. He passed away at age 85 with a chainsaw in his hands, going like the clappers, cutting firewood for his little beach shack on the south coast of NSW. His wife was the seamstress at HMAS Creswell for 27 years.

At age 3, I remember the screams of a neighbour who was just told her husband had been lost in the HMAS Voyager Disaster.

In 1996 I lost brothers in the Blackhawk Disaster at Townsville.

I'm going off to Canberra this Anzac Day to march with over 700 ex Army Apprentice mates who are celebrating the 70 years since the Army Apprentices School, Balcombe was formed.

So to all the bleeding hearts, anti war Wanna Be's accusing us of "celebrating" war, babies being bayoneted, families blown apart by bombs etc ad nauseam, NO we are not there for that.

YES we will discuss things like cleaning our rifles in diesel, petrol, range fuel, washing trucks with Gamlen, having to sit on crowded, canvas covered trucks with everyone else on the truck smoking, not being issued the proper protective gear and how "service" has given some of us cancers, conditions, disabilities and such.

We/I are/am celebrating life, the fact that some of us are not with us on that day, & that some of us are still alive.

YES, some of us will share our stories of conflicts overseas and mates lost and those still alive & share a common history with anecdotes, yarns, & recollections to the best of our memories - whether WW1 WW2 Korea, Vietnam or any service since then, until today - for that is what old soldiers, sailors and airmen do when in company.

Dear o sung wu,

I understand the attraction for many service people of a day to march with pride and to catch up with or remember past mates. Like many Australians I use to attend ANZAC services quite regularly in commemoration. But for some reason I've found myself increasingly being drawn to Remembrance Day as the one when I spend time remembering the fallen and their families.

Perhaps it was my upbringing, old enough to have remembered the physically and mentally maimed WW1 veterans, added to that having a father who served in the Korean war but hated anything jingoistic.

I was in a meeting on the last one and requested a minutes silence at 11 am. I got quite a few strange looks but all participated. There is something very poignant about that poppy. When I drive through many of our small towns here in Victoria it is truly sobering to see the list of those who never made it back to loved ones. 20 or 30 from what would have been a hundred able bodied men. I think of those families who never got body to bury and the struggle they would have gone through without their breadwinner.

I have read of the steely determination that it was to have been the War to end all wars. Sadly it was not to be.

Issy, if your attitude is, all wars are inevitable, then there is no avoiding war, my attitude is all wars are available, Korean police action included. If you read my post above you would understand where I am coming from. Most wars are the result of not fully resolving the issues thrown up by previous wars, the Korean police action included.

Hi ALBIE MANTON OF DARWIN...

I'm honoured & immensely proud to know you my friend. ALBIE MANTON of DARWIN. You come from a fine Military family by the sounds of things. Especially with your time with the ARA 1977 - 88.

The only thing I would caution you on, if you March don't be put off by those 'meat-heads' who's only wish is to denigrate your service, they're simply not worth the trouble. You do your family a great honour too, by recognising their considerable service as well, by your own presence. And Balcombe with their fine traditions that virtually kept the Army going with their technical 'know-how' were truely diamonds in the rough, without them there'd be no Army. Thank you for your support mate!

G'day to you too STEELEREDUX...

I can appreciate the emotional effect these beautiful old monuments can have, that have been erected in honour of the Soldiers of the 1st AIF (WWl). In fact you can see them in most small towns, anywhere in Australia. Unfortunately more and more of them, have been wantonly vandalised, and as each ANZAC Day approaches, some tiny little Sub-branch set about trying to rid them, of these vandal's inscriptions!

You might not know, but one of our contributors IS MISE is a Korean War Veteran, serving with the notable 3RAR. They saw the heaviest enemy action of any Australian Regiment in the entire Korean War.

I do understand your attachment to Remembrance Day, it does evoke memories of all Wars or Actions that Australia has taken part in. Please excuse me if you will STEELEREDUX, but it is necessary to respectfully correct our friend PAUL1405 with his statement about Korea.

PAUL1405, you'll find the Korean campaign was a War, not a police action. The war was fought by soldiers, not police. It's never the role of police to prosecute a War. It is the role of police (peacekeepers) even among waring factions, to attempt to preserve the peace. I thought I'd help out here, with that anomaly. Thank you.

Dear o sung wu,

The tragedy of Korea is that it could have been so much different especially if the two powers had supported the short lived provisional government of the People's Republic of Korea. It had been formed through People's Committees one of which was headed by a very popular leader in waiting, one Cho Man-sik.

He was a Christian with quite pacifist views learned from studying Ghandi. He was arrested during the Japanese occupation for striving for independence for his people. As the war was coming to an end he and others formed the Peoples Committees negotiating a peaceful transition to power with the Japanese. He received initial support from the Soviets who approached him to head the north's government. He however refused because he disliked communism and wanted more autonomy to govern.

The PRK's agenda included;

"the confiscation without compensation of lands held by the Japanese and collaborators; free distribution of that land to the peasants; rent limits on the nonredistributed land; nationalization of such major industries as mining, transportation, banking, and communication; state supervision of small and mid-sized companies; …guaranteed basic human rights and freedoms, including those of speech, press, assembly, and faith; universal suffrage to adults over the age of eighteen; equality for women; labor law reforms including an eight-hour day, a minimum wage, and prohibition of child labor; and "establishment of close relations with the United States, USSR, England [sic], and China, and positive opposition to any foreign influences interfering with the domestic affairs of the state."

Its leader in the South was Lyuh Woon-hyung but within months of the Americans arriving they had outlawed the party because it was deemed too communist like and Lyuh was assassinated. They even tried to put the Japanese back into governing positions before widespread protests put a stop to it.

After resisting Soviet overtures Cho Man-sik disappeared into the North's prison system never to be heard from again.

Hard left and right rulers were established in the North and South by the respective cold war overlords and Korea remains totally divided to this day.

Hi there STEELEREDUX...

You absolutely amaze me with your depth of knowledge Steele. I reckon you would know much more about the Vietnam War and the Indonesian Confrontation than I would; and I was in the bloody things! Seriously though you mast absorb history like a sponge where I simple read what I like and promptly forget it all which is a real shame.

You, FOXY and of course DAVID F. are the true intellectuals on this Site I suspect, including a few others who literally amaze me with their depth of knowledge on some issues. Where all I'm capable of doing, is trying to take the high ground by 'bluster' and 'vocal bullying' (or something) which I can no longer achieve anyway, given my poor memory and advancing dementia. I reckon you'd be a most interesting man to sit down a have a yarn with, albeit our political opinions are really quite divergent, given our respective views Steele.

Thanks mate, I really appreciate your synopsis of the reasons behind the Korean War, I had no idea who the real players were, and without you, probably never would I expect!

Gee, and here I've been thinking that the fact that North Korea invaded South Korea caused the UN to send in the troops.

Paul,

I like your reasoning, if Caesar hadn't invaded Britain then all the subsequent wars wouldn't have happened.

Geez, who woulda thought!

Hi there IS MISE...

Did you happen to read STEELEREDUX's piece on the Korean War? He certainly raised many interesting points, much of it I wasn'r aware of, for sure? My own poor understanding was limited. By the North, marching down against the south for the purpose of invading; and then unifying the entire Korean Peninsular and installing a Communist Government. The South Koreans implored the US and their Allies, to assist in stopping the advancing North Koreans from coming down any further. And with the aid of General Douglas MacARTHUR, forced them back, North of the 38th parallel. The War was not won by either side, there's a general armistice in place, is all? MacARTHUR wanted to pursue the communists right out of Korea altogether through China and the USSR, into oblivion - however he was denied his wish, fact or fiction, IS MISE?

Hi All,

Firstly, Hi o sung wu, yes the Korean War, was defiantly a war, although officially in UN quarters it was referred to as a "police action" I believe.

The seeds of war are planted long before the first shots are fired, and there are no clean hands among the leaders involved, from both sides. It is far easier to go to war than avoid it, and some simply do not want to avoid war anyway. Wars can always be linked to some form of injustice real or perverted prior to their commencement. Thanks Steele for your incisiveness regards the preconditions that existed in Korea before that war.

Issy, what can I say, being your cynical self again.

Paul,

You could blame the Greeks or the Etruscans or the Persians.

Someone made the decision to invade South Korea, someone sent the hordes of North Korean troop over the border, perhaps you could explain to us all how negotiations could have been started and war avoided?

Of course, the USA et al could have moved out and let the North take over the whole country; peace at any price.

Dear o sung wu,

Intellectual? Hardly. Just blessed/cursed with a curious mind.

I think once you accept that the colonialist mindset that united countries like the US, UK, Australia, many European nations and included Japan then you gain a different perspective.

That Australia would arm Japanese POWs in Indonesia to put down an independence movement is sobering. It was done in order to hold on to the country until the Dutch could come and take back control. More European lives were lost in Indonesia trying to return that colonial control than were lost during the entire war.

It is interesting to learn you were part of Operation Claret. I would love to hear your thoughts on the conflict. Did you know much of the history of Sarawak? James Brooke is someone worth reading about.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Brooke

These were lines drawn on a map by European colonists. I'm not sure how much the locals were wedded to them and neither am I sure you would have had much chance to talk to them and get their view.

'Jimmy' BROOKE's 'The White Rajar' as he was called... Hi there STEELEDEDUX...'Claret' was a cross border ops mainly with our SASR and the Poms. Allegedly they crossed into Kalimanten and that's in Indonesian Territory which made Pres. Sukarno quite cross apparently. In fact on New Years eve in 1964, he made this extraordinary statement to the effect '...before the cock crows thrice; on the 1st of January 1965, Malaya will form part of Indonesia...', through that particular indiscretion,we were all ordered to stand-to!

All joking aside the Indonesian soldier is no push-over, they're quite tough little buggers and don't lack courage.

I must confess I didn't bother learning much about local history anyway, as we were lifted, in and out of Kuching, like a 'Honeymooner's Pr..k', subject to 'operational exigencies' was the language they used. One thing I did pick up, the entire BROOKES family, they'd been there for some time, and were looked upon relatively kindly by the locals.

To be honest, mostly our AOR was along the Malay/Thai Border, search & destroy communist terrorists and/or Indonesian infiltrators. We moved from FSB's at - Kroh; Kemar; Grik; and Tapong, plus others I can't recall. We operated in the densest bush I've ever seen in my life, with a preponderance of exotic flora and fauna you might only see in books or film. I was privileged see, from a height of 150ft in a UH-1B, wild elephants washing and frolicking in jungle streams, together with tigers darting here and there, in breaks in the jungle canopy. Amazing wildlife.

We had good times and bad (sad) times?

One of our first casualties was a SASR Trooper in Sarawak, gored by an Elephant musking apparently, and he suffered from horrific injuries as a result.

OSW, Is Mise, Hasbeen, SteeleRedux...G'day & hope all is well in your loc.

Many of my training staff at Balcombe were veterans of Korea, Malaya & more recently Vietnam, as it had ended a few years prior. During my 2 years here, there were many 'war stories' related to young apprentices. Our RSM was Norm Goldspink, ex 3 RAR, Kapyong & our CSM Alan 'Jock' Kelly was one of the soldiers shot by Viet Cong in the incident that earned Maj Peter Badcoe his Victoria Cross. When one sees recently healed war wounds on people, it gives another perspective on the damage that human beings can inflict on one another and a healthy respect for firearms.

A bit later in my career, when posted to Campbell Barracks during the 80's I met many of the names and faces behind the legends.

One yarn I do remember is the time the RAAF sent up a helo with a couple of coils of barbed wire at the ready. Apparently the Indonesians were a bit out on their "aerial navigation" and prone to wandering over the border. From a few hundred feet above, one of the 'Boys' let go a coil of Bobbly wire which inexplicably wound its way around an Indonesian helicopter rotor blade..with obvious results. The cross border incursions by the Indons came to a halt thereafter.

Diverging from the thread here, but it bothers me greatly that our successive governments are feting the Indonesian Military and more specifically their Kopassus troops on our shores.

As a young tacker I listened to crusty old Chiefs around the bars of various RAN CPO's messes saying that it was not China we should be wary of, but Indonesia. This was the 1960's mind you.

Today we read in the news that China is eyeing off Vanuatu and other potential bases in the South Pacific.

Something rather sinister in all of this I find, what say you?

G'day hare ALBIE MANTON OF Darwin...

The bespectacled Maj. Peter BADCOE was a legend among the AATTV. as well as the Army itself. A quietly spoken bloke ordinarily, but could raise hell when required, and I think he was the second member in the Team to receive the VC? Like the others in the AATTV, he was awarded his Victoria Cross posthumously sadly, and never lived to receive the honours bestowed on others with such an award. They named the R & R facility at Vung Tau after him, with a really brilliant swimming pool and all the things that went with it.

And you're right too ALBIE, what was officially reported to Canberra and reality, sometime was well wide of the mark. After all we can't upset those ranking Officers in HQ Canberra, with stories of less than pleasant activities now could we?

Apropos the (martial) intentions of either China or Indonesia, both nations have huge land Armies. However, it's China alone who can also back itself up with a formidable Air Force and Navy. However not Indonesia at this time. And I don't trust either of them at all!

Thank you so much for your contribution ALBIE, I really appreciate it.

"Gee, and here I've (Issy) been thinking that the fact that North Korea invaded South Korea"

Issy, we sent you (only you no one else) over there to stop them from coming over the boarder (that was your job), what happened, now Cousin Kimmy has got the bomb, gee very disappointing! 60 years later it looks like we'll have to send The Donald over to sort out Cousin Kimmy. what went wrong? A bit of a cock up, don't you think.

We should have known when you didn't stop the Kaiser in 1914.

Albie, o sung wu,

I'm pretty sure that I met Norm Goldspink a few times and I had a lot to do with some of the lads from Balcome, I got my share of them each year in Engineering at 2 Base Wksp, R.A.E.M.E, Moorebank.
99.9% good as they came and the 0.1% came good during their 12 months with us.

I knew Peter Badcoe very well and used to service his firearms, he always made sure that they were in tip-top order.
He was probably the only Officer in the Australian Army who had a Spanish CETEME rifle as a personal weapon choice.
http://www.military-today.com/firearms/cetme.htm
He also carried his service 9mm Browning, a Smith & Wesson revolver
(.357 Magnum, as I remember) and a small Bayard pistol behind his belt buckle as a last-ditch chance (a la Paladin).
Peter always reminded me of a businessman, of a Bank Manager.
http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/2017/03/major-peter-badcoe-vc-50-years-since-his-feats-of-soldiering-and-leadership-became-legend.html

When we heard that he had been killed in action, it was a very sad moment.

G'day to you IS MISE...

I read that citation you kindly provided on Major Peter BADCOE VC, and the words struck a chord with me I must say. They reckon good and true leadership can only be attained by, as the word implies, by 'Leading' & Maj BADCOE was just such a man, a true leader.

Today we seem bereft of great leaders; whether they be military, civil service; government employees, or politicians themselves. They all seem to just poke along, keep their noses clean long enough to pick-up their pensions, and then depart into goodness knows where?

I've said it before, but the last truely honourable politician that I knew was, Ted MACK Independent. He resigned his seat, precisely one day before he was due to pick-up a hefty pension, compliments of the Australian Taxpayer. I've not heard of him since, a very decent human being, is Edward MACK, former MHR.

Thanks Mate.

o sung wu,

Ted MacK was indeed a great politician and an exceptionally honest one.
In some contrast to him in personality was Edward (Ted) St John whose honesty as a politician cost him any prolonged political career.
This obituary, by Michael Kirby (another man of unimpeachable honesty), is well worth reading.
http://oa.anu.edu.au/obituary/st-john-edward-henry-ted-13362

I'll second that Issy, Ted Mack, the independent member for North Sydney was one of the finest and most selfless politicians to sit in the NSW parliament, later moving on to federal politics. Ted's was the only vote in the parliament opposing Australia's involvement in the Gulf War.

Australia could do with a few more like Ted.

Hi IS MISE...

Your mention of Michael KIRBY J. '...another man of unimpeachable honesty...' you say?

o sung wu,

Yes, I always found him to be a very honest and forthright person.
Some may deplore his politics and sexual orientation but I found him to be an honourable bloke.
He was a great asset to the High Court.

With the greatest respect to you IS MISE, I shall leave you with your opinion. Moreover I'm not sufficiently rich enough, to embrace a Defamation Action; or anything else in Tort.