//Not that you actually give a damn, but you did ask.//

Well there's no need to be like that.

//What do you need to be saved from. Yourself, the world, and death.//

Yourself: Fair point and well made. Yes, I'm fairly sure that technically speaking the greatest threat to myself does come from myself. I'm not into self-harm, nor suicidal, and I am quite cautious by nature so not a big risk-taker. But my diet, frankly, is appalling. Too much cheese and red meat and not nearly enough fruit, veg, grains... plants, basically. I really need to eat more plants. And changing my religion could definitely help: if I go Muslim, there's all the pork gone for a start. I've read that many Seventh Day Adventists, Hindus too, are vegetarian. Maybe that could be the way to go.

Or maybe I just eat better, without losing my religion.

the world: Cheer up Brian, the world isn't such a bad old place. Look, there are plenty of bad things in this world. I could write you huge big list, but I have a word limit. And if you focus on all those bad things all the time, of course you're going to think the world is a huge stinking cesspit. You're also going to do dire things to your mental health: been there, done that, bought the T-shirt. I'm not saying you should become one of those annoying, overly-cheerful people who believe in the 'power of positive thinking'. Those people irritate me. I'm just saying that whilst maintaining a healthy-but-not-excessive level of cynicism, you might want to gain a sense of perspective: a cooler, more objective view of how mankind is progressing as a species than that promoted by those who subscribe to Apocalyptic theology.

We're doing okay, dude. Compared to the historical average: War and Famine are down. Pestilence is way down. Death remains steady, but lifespans are up. Prosperity is up. Education is up. Human rights are up. As the barman said to the horse: why the long face, pal?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJUhlRoBL8M

and death: O... kay

Do you have any idea how many dead Christians there are? See above point about lists and word limits. Suffice to say, there an awful lot. Did they just not believe hard enough?

//Yourself, the world, and death. Essentially everything sin is mucking up.//

So sin is 'mucking me up', is it?

There's absolutely no call for that, mate. We're all just having a nice friendly chat, no need for the abuse.

Here's a nice little song I heard the other day. Not terribly relevant, but I thought the chorus could be adapted into some useful advice for you: Don't save people who don't wanna be saved, even if you wanna save them. Everybody! Don't save people who don't wanna be saved, even if you wanna save them (it's complicated, isn't it?).

http://www.facebook.com/ThePippaEvans/

david f,
I've been away for a couple of days so the topic has moved ten pages.
However I am not Protestant, that means protesting against the Roman Church, nor Hindu like Yuyutsu who has many gods. I am an independent thinker and have read contemporary historical text to the Bible. Understanding Jesus gives us the best understanding of the heart and character of God who created all things including human society.

There is a universal truth hidden in the heart of a good society that is implanted there by God. It has been Christ Jesus that opened this light to a closed hierarchal society. mhaze has given a good exposure of the development of society under the freedom of Christian world views. Jesus in his introductory to his mission states he came to set captives free. He came to give his life to freeing sinners from their sins. He teaches and practise the equality of all persons, including the outcast of society, and Paul follows it be stating there is neither male or female, slave or free in the kingdom where God rules. Even the concept of rule is to be a servant of others not a dictator to be served, says Jesus Christ. We are to work in the best interest of all persons including our enemies.

This still is a concept not understood in practise by the enemies of Christianity, including atheists and other religions. It is not a principle of being superior, but of being best practice for healthy relationships.

You need not fear that your absence went unnoticed, Josephus. It has been really pleasant not having you pop your head in to make offensive, unfounded, and downright false assumptions about what myself and others base our lives or character on.

To decline to provide specifics with regards to what is it that you mean when to speak of basing one’s character on something, and then assume that those who present arguments unfavourable to your religious belief must necessarily base their lives and character on their disbelief in what you believe you base yours on, is both dishonest and absurd.

In the original post which started this thread there was a comment.

<<I want to tell you what I know, from loving God.>>

Having hearing you I think you have confused religious belief with knowledge and will continue to confuse religious belief with knowledge. I think lots of people with different religions do the same thing. That would be perfectly OK if they were content to rely on their belief, and live and let live. The problem arises when they want others to share that confusion. In my experience and my long life I have met many missionaries. All those I have met assume that other people have not encountered their belief system - that they are dealing with any empty mind - as though they are bringing a fresh insight. You are only one of many.

Many atheists are curious about different religions and want to know their history and their belief systems. One apparent fact about religion is that most people identify with their parents' religion.

I was curious about Islam and went to a Mosque in the West End of Brisbane. After the prayers the worshippers (all male) broke up in discussion groups), and I was invited to join one. They discussed a portion of their scripture which contained the injunction to seek knowledge. One of the participated had read "Satanic Verses" which produced a fatwa from an Islamic cleric advising somebody to go out and murder the author. The reader had the opinion that it wasn't a good read, but no book justifies killing the author. After the discussion the imam invited me to take some books. Although I would have liked to have seen the books I refused as I did not want him to think I was a potential convert.

AJ,

“… god can be objectively disproved in a world where evil and suffering exist”.

That’s true if you assume that the deity sees evil/suffering in the same way as you do. So then you’ve ‘disproven’ the existence of a God that has the same values as you ie you’ve discredited that type of God. But you haven’t disproven a deity that has a different view on the nature of evil or suffering or sees them as a means to an end. You may not like, or want to worship such a deity but that’s not the same as disproving it. Which is why someone might want to change the terms of the issue from prove to discredit.

“I still point fallacies out all the time. Why, I pointed one out earlier in this thread.”

I was referring to you using them against me. You stopped using them when I started pointing out their invalidity. What happens in other sub-threads, I’m not sure. I tend not to follow the interminable “I never said what I said” arguments.
“…your inability to provide an example of me misapplying or misidentifying them was evidence of that. “ I said ‘misuse’. You changed the terms of the issue to make it more to your liking…seems to be a fair bit of that around, eh? And I’ve already shown where you did misuse the fallacy meme, so asked and answered.

Your Wikipedia DM link doesn’t provide evidence of DM, it provides evidence of a gap in our knowledge which is currently filled by DM. Much the same as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_of_the_gaps .

“I might get around to responding to your comments regarding the extent to which Christianity was necessary for Western civilisation to emerge, if I can muster the enthusiasm and find the time.
Translation: I can’t think of any way to rebut your learned and well researched post so I’ll pretend to ignore it.


“….the Genetic fallacy.”
I had a little bet with myself that, when I pointed out you weren’t using this failed meme, you’d start using it again. You’re so easily manipulated.