While speaking to an old mate of mine who recently 'pulled the pin', he reckons one of the greatest issues confronting our Justice System is that, of the proliferation of the drug 'ICE'; it's ready availability, and relatively low costs in purchasing the stuff.

While I was still working, I didn't have much to do with the drug, therefore my only knowledge is from the 'scuttlebutt' I'd pick up around the Station. What I did see however was the end result of the physical effects the drug can have, on those who uses and abuse it. Numerous holes being punched through interior walls, as well as the number of coppers and/or victims who happen to fall foul of an 'ICE' user. Notwithstanding the amount of carnage that's been occasioned on our roads and freeways, by drug affected drivers.

Personally I've always contended you can't 'arrest' yourself out of these Drug epidemics, despite what the official policy might be. It takes all of those who are stakeholders in the suppression of illicit drugs, to come on board. And to a certain extent, with most drugs they have and with some minor successes as well. But apparently; not with ICE, I wonder why? Can anyone of you good people offer an opinion? I might hasten to add - everyone's opinion counts, nobody is either completely right nor totally wrong. Surely someone must have an idea what next should done?

O sung wo.

The problem WE have with ice users, is self made.

In the end, controlling bad behaviour, which extends into breaking the law, must be treated as a law and order issue.

The police are given that role for very good reasons.

The main reason given by history, is to prevent the citizenry from taking the law into their own hands, and seeking vengeance on transgressors. Exacting personal vengeance, is a huge step towards anarchy.

The police are the keepers not only of the peace, but they watch over the civilising processes of society.

Now we get near the meat of the matter.

My observation is, we must stop making the perpetrators into victims. You do the crime, you do the time, is a brilliantly simple mantra!

The simple answer is, do as the Americans do, build more prisons. Ice users need to be extracted from our society, and incarcerated in places where their addiction problems can be dealt with economically and sensibly.

Rodrigo Duterte springs to mind, as an extreme example of what I allude to, by specifying a perpetrator is what a perpetrator is: one thing he isn't, is a victim!

I think we could reduce the problem to some extent by applying the Darwin principle.

We could waste ambulance paramedic & hospital time just once on treating the idiots who over dose on drugs, but once should be it.

Having saved them from their stupidity at our expense the first time, that should be the end. If they are stupid enough to do it again, we should leave them where they lie, & let nature take it's course.

I gather some druggies are on first name terms with emergency staff, they see them so often. No society needs or should have to be responsible for such people.

Hi there DIVER DAN...

Thank you for responding to, what I think is a topic that hasn't encouraged much interest. As I indicated in my opening remarks, my time in the Job, I've had little to do with ICE addicts or those who provide the constituents to mfg. ICE. That said I've had a bit more activity with Heroin.

I tend to agree with you, it's your responsibility for what you put in your mouth. Rarely if ever, a user is held down and forcibly imbued with it. We can blame peer pressure, even reasons of experimentation as well, to a certain extent, but I don't personally support that notion either. Only 'you' can determine what you ingest, smoke or inject etc. For this reason, I agree with you, the 'victim' description is hardly tenable in my view.

Again you're right, the police are the 'keepers' of the Queens Peace. Only keepers of a style of 'Peace' that's influenced and regulated by our Political Masters. If our politicians declare 'ICE' users are victims, then victims they are. The Commissioner can only direct his police members to treat drug users in accordance with what policy the Police Minister determines. If a directive comes down, informing detectives to take a more arbitrary line with users, well police can deliver in accordance with that directive.

Believe it or not my friend, I do agree with much of what you say - Build more gaols to accommodate and treat, ICE and other drug users. But when our Pollie's see the costs of such initiatives, well who knows?.

Many thanks DIVER DAN for 'kick-starting' this failing topic.

Hi there HASBEEN Ol' friend...

Seemingly you're of the same opinion as DIVER DAN another contributor who believes in the delivery of natural justice. Trouble is you're both right? Why than have our political masters not jumped on board and started taking tougher action at the 'user end' as well as the supplier. As I said at the outset I've not had much experience with ICE, Heroin was my caper when I was in the job. From what I've heard since, ICE is far more dangerous to everybody, more so than the big H will ever be.

You're saying, one chance only, no if's or but's, you bugger-up that one chance, then you're on your 'Pat Malone' and let nature take her course? Tough no doubt, but something I couldn't mount a viable argument in opposition too it?

My mate further opined, this ICE epidemic is probably one of the most fearful drug outbreaks, GD uniform's (first responding police) have needed to confront in many years, some claiming it's even more worrying than that of even a terrorist incident? Emmmm, thats worthy of another entirely different discussion I reckon? Mainly because of the inability of police/paramedics/nursing staff, being able to physically contain/restrain them - Even going so far as suggesting an ordinary room be modified, into a 'padded cell' arrangement, at all major public hospitals, whenever a violent ICE addict is brought in for treatment.

Hard to argue against reality I guess. Thanks a lot HASBEEN, I appreciate your contribution.

Prosecuting the end user is not the answer. This weeks arrest of three Australians in Serbia suspected of being part of an international drug-smuggling group that tried to bring more than a tonne of cocaine into Sydney last year, is good news in the fight against drugs. This type of arrest does more to curtail the vile drug trade that the arrest of a thousand addicts.
Not only does America have the biggest prison population of drug users, it also has more dealers on the streets than any other comparable country, hardly a solution to an epidermic. Hard fist'd laws targeting the end user, are expensive to enforce and fail to deter drug use. The big stick should be used against those involved in the trade, against the dealers and the Mr Bigs when caught. Education can help, but far more has to be done to rehabilitate the addicted.

Something very wrong when cancer sufferers pay for own drugs while druggies get methadone for free.

Hi there RUNNER.... All the very best to you and yours for 2018.

Mate if you please, you'll elevate my blood pressure my friend! You're pushing all my buttons with that particular issue. Still that's always been a marque of Western Society hasn't it. Provide free medication to the illicit user in the hope they may be weened from the harder stuff? I wonder though, what the recidivism rate may be, with those who're hardened ICE users?

G'Day PAUL1405...And to you too, all the best to you and yours for 2018.

The US is a basket case as far as crime is concerned. I've trained with the Bureau (in the US) on two separate occasions; 1986 and again in 1987. Neither Schools were to do with the Interdiction of Narcotics, nevertheless it gave me the chance to see; 'up close and personal' just how good they are, in anything they do. Yet for one to try and juxtapose their finite training against their burgeoning crime rates, well forget it, it's just not possible.

There are parts of some of the East Coast Cities, Boston; NYC; DC; Atlantic City as an example that police fear to go, most certainly in uniform. ICE is awash in most of the larger Cities, with no likelihood of it diminishing in anytime soon. The presence of uniformed police, to an ICE user, seem to be like a red rag to a bull.

What you say Paul is true. US Gaols are overflowing with users, pushers and the occasional supplier. When the figures should be inverted - Fill the gaols with suppliers; pushers; and if space allows, the worst of the users. This is very much inline with DIVER DAN's suggestion and HASBEEN's as well. Hospitals are often ill-equiped to handle some chronic ICE patients as well.

I've no idea of the $ costs involved, in 'curing' a co-operative user of the drug ICE, other than I don't think it would be too cheap. It's a mess.

Thanks for 2018 wishes O Sung Wu may you be greatly blessed this year.

One thought I had heard a while ago is to encourage being active in a sport. It's not really specific to The drug ICE, but the general idea is if a person wants to stay in shape and stay in the sports team, they will actively keep off if drugs that kill their bodies and their competive edge. For kids in school encouraging being on a team will help the culture as a whole for schools to be anti drug, and hopefully a repulsion to drugs for even those who aren't in the sport activities. For adults the same encouragement could be given to get into a sport to stay healthy.

If ICE is the next worse meth product, then I don't know of any rehabilitation systems that work and are cheap to employ. Without knowing how worse ICE is I know meth is highly addictive and very destructive to one's body. Best answer I can think of for that kind of thing is active encouragement and programs to to not start the drug. A cultural push to be in shape and be competitive might work. Or a least that's a running hope.

Hi, o sung wu, happy new year to you and all your love ones as well.

What do you do? What...do... you.... do? I don't have the answers. How do you make sure your kids steer clear of drugs? You can only advise and educate about the dangers, provide that love and support they need in life, be vigilant, very vigilant at times. make sure your kids follow a decent path in life, with goals they set and strive to achieve.That, fingers crossed, hopefully brings them all the success and happiness they need to not be one of life's losers.

I am fortunate to have the worlds best grand kids, you might also be in the same position, as are many of us old farts if we are lucky. But I worry about their future, just as I did in the past when I worried about my sons as they grew up.

I would hate to be a copper when it comes to drugs. The police are the garbage men in all of this (I don't men that disrespectfully) given the task of shoveling up all the human waste that drugs cause, they are at the end of the line. The real constructive work needed to avoid the problems, has to be done before the line starts.

Nice idea Not_Now.Soon, but if you look at the number of elite & professional sports of all disciplines that are heavily into both alcohol & heavy drugs, the idea that desire for high performance will keep people off drugs just doesn't work for many.

In fact that desire leads many into using prohibited & dangerous drugs to try to get higher performance.

Dear O Sung Wu,

I know very little on this subject and certainly even
less on how to fix the problem. However, I found the
following link on the web - and was absolutely shocked
by what it revealed. I did not realise that it was such
a serious problem. I thought it was a "party drug" that
some kids played with. I had no idea how addictive it was.

http://time.com/4737800/meth-australia-ice-crystal-methamphetamine-methylamphetamine/

Here's another link that shows just how serious this
problem is, especially in rural areas and that we
need to take national action to solve this problem:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/story-streams/ice-epidemic/

Hi there NOT_NOW.SOON & my ol' mate HASBEEN...

It's always been good to encourage young people to take up sport(s) for many and varied reasons. Up until thirty odd years ago, I would've agreed with you, NOT_NOW.SOON.

A bloke that springs to mind, named Ben COUSINS (sic) who was an elite AFL Footballer from WA. Apparently he won AFL's top award, Like League's 'Dally M', and was cited as one of the very best. All of a sudden he was arrested for being in possession of drugs, and his life has spiralled out of control ever since.

G'day there PAUL1405...

You're right, the coppers & the Ambo's are the 'garbagemen' of the scene, and no offence taken, it's true Paul. I was on; inner city Radio Patrol (detectives), and we received a call to attend Wynyard Park where a body of a young girl was found. GD's (uniforms) were already there on standby at the scene, thinking it a homicide.

On arrival we were confronted by this foul looking, emaciated and atrophied female, aged about 13 -15 years lying in excreta, with rigor partly advanced, so filthy and disgusting was this 'child', the Ambos attired themselves in their 'dirty necropsy' throwaways, in order to move her remains for transportation to Arundel Street. I did my usual 'slow walk-around' sensing this was just another tragic conclusion to an overdose, with the worst part yet to come. Informing the NOK. The most unpleasant part of policing.

FYI, potential 'crime' scene quickly evaporate in matters of accidental/deliberate (suicide) OD's. There's evidence of all their paraphernalia nearby, and if the scene was 'set' to appear as an accidental OD, to conceal foul play, you can exclude that little ploy very quickly indeed. I always used to think, what a damn waste of a young life through utter ignorance. By some youngster engaging in this perilously risky business, of self-ingesting some badly 'refined' or 'cut' drug who's origins are from - who know's where?

the problem seems like a lost cause. Young children are taught absolutely no restraints these days. In my opinion this has added dramatically to the resistance to say no to things that destroy you. Young teenagers who have just been dumped from their 5th sexual relationship and then dumped on the scrap heap find comfort in getting high. Secularism has created a putried environment. I feel very sorry for the young today.

Hello there FOXY...

My own knowledge of this ICE scourge is somewhat scant as well. Other than it represents a threat to those individuals charged with 'bringing them down'. The user, becomes; aggressive; belligerent; and with near superhuman strength, thus they're very difficult people to control.

Sure police have the wherewithal to restrain them, but not so the Ambo's or Nursing staff. Often using these hapless employees as veritable 'punching bags', seemingly without any consequences whatsoever.

Apparently all the Hospital Admin. staff are prepared to do, is appoint unarmed security guards, as some protection from these rampaging addicts. Who protects the security staff? I'm sure glad I'm no longer charged, with dealing with these types of people FOXY?

I sincerely hope that you, and your dear Mum; 'AND' all her friends 'in care'; have a very happy, 'n 'chatty' 2018!

Hi there RUNNER my friend...

Political Correctness from their earliest school days, has utterly confused these youngsters about the very basic and important questions in their young life: - Mystifying them with questions like...'Am I a boy, or a girl'; 'Or I might dress up as a girl on; Mondays, Wednesday's and Friday's'; 'cuz our teacher (who I thought was a lady), a Miss/Mrs/Mlle./M/Monsieur/Mr. Smith said it was quite OK to do so, whatever we wish to be? 'Safe Schools' programme' - Publicly whip it's Architect I say!

So these poor little blighters turn to illicit substances, in order to establish some 'firm' foundation, in their young, grossly unstable lives. Then as they age we lock 'em up for using prohibited substances? I reckon it's us, that needs locking up, for failing them as they grow up, and thirst for; genuinely authentic, valid, and verifiable knowledge? As well as removing all manner of Christian teaching(s) from their basic education. I'm an atheist RUNNER, but there's nothing too far wrong, with teaching them Christian ideals and morality to counter the rotten stuff they pedal in this violent world of ours.

Dear O Sung Wu,

Thanks for explaining the effects of "ice" and
for your well wishes. Mum is very well looked after
by the wonderful staff in her facility as well
as by myself and my husband. She's doing quite well,
all things considered.

I wonder if it is time to legalise marijuana. Some people can't cope without taking something and ever since ice came out, marijuana doesn't seem so bad.

Employees who drug test workers also need to reconsider their policies. Users like ice because it is out of the system after a few days. It is none of any employer's business if their workers use drugs on their time off.

Legalise marijuana? For medical purposes most certainly, but my short answer in general is no, decriminalising its use, yes. lots of emphasis on prevention is what I am in favor of.

There is certainly a different attitude to the use of cannabis, by particularly young people, who see no more wrong in it than the use of alcohol (another bad drug). Recently we attended a 21st for a grand nephew, about 10pm out come the "joints". the kids are having a smoke, Well did our host (nephew) blow up. "Put that away, we have Uncle and Auntie here, and you are being disrespectful by smoking that stuff in front of them!" The irony was nephew had drank a lot of alcohol.

As for "It is none of any employer's business if their workers use drugs on their time off." Not true if it affects their work performance.

Another short story; My son is a instructor/driver with State Transit. They now and then, randomly drug test a few drivers before they start their shift, and rarely catch anyone. One time the son had a new recruit to instruct, first day on the road, waiting to go out, he thought this blokes a bit strange, glassy eyes. He went to the drug tester and asked him, can you do a few random tests. Son causally mentioned to the tester, would you randomly test that new recruit. Well the bloke had a very short career with State Transit, it finished shortly after the test. He was told his rights, but elected to finish there and then, a good decision.
A driver was sacked, at the end of one route which finishes outside a pub, he used the "toilet" as many drivers do on that particular trip, nothing wrong with that, if that's all they do. Someone put him in with a phone call, they were right onto it, being his last run for the shift. On return he was tested for alcohol, had a low reading, but the limit is zero, good by job of over 20 years.

Distribute it free....making it illegal never stopped anyone from using any drug.

' Distribute it free....making it illegal never stopped anyone from using any drug.'

really? So making drink driving illegal also has not saved lives? Try thinking, Just a bit!

Let me see.....I don't recall saying driving under the influence shouldn't be illegal.
Again we have one who wants to change the comment to suit his answer.
Better luck with that 'thinking' thing you profess to do.

'Thinking' is the path to 'knowing'....let me know when you get there!

Special Delivery, the more people on drugs, or alcohol, the more you will have drug or drink driving.

All these drugs reduce the users reasoning ability while using, & reduce their sense of responsibility as well, leading to more driving affected, with reduced ability.

'the more people on drugs, or alcohol, the more you will have drug or drink driving.'

Very true!

So the answer is not in stopping either because even if the courts take away their license people will still drive and cause even greater harm through having an unlicensed motor vehicle.
The harder something is to get, the harder they try

The problem is in the mentality of those who take drugs and drive or drink and drive and it's called irresponsibility., both of those who consume and those who provide.
Because we live in a 'civilised' society where we consider the 'rights' of the perpetrators we have what we have which is called 'every man for himself'
Banish someone to a remote area, rather than jail, for their act is a better solution within the present framework or present them with a debt for life on conviction, where a percentage of their earnings go to those harmed or killed by their irresponsible act

benk,

"... It is none of any employer's business if their workers use drugs on their time off."

So they come to work still under the effects of some drug and use heavy moving equipment or high-speed machines and everything is rosy?

It only looks that way, through the blood spray.

//So they come to work still under the effects of some drug and use heavy moving equipment or high-speed machines and everything is rosy?//

Well obviously not.

But if a person is no longer under the influence but still has detectable levels of metabolites within their system (in the case of highly lipophilic metabolites, they can stick around for a very long time - i.e. months - after the drugs effects have worn off), that can often be grounds for dismissal.

And that's not OK. Imagine if alcohol had highly lipophilic metabolites. It's the 25th of January: if alcohol's metabolites were that lipohilic, somebody showing up to work today, completely clean and sober, could fail a drug test because they had a few drinks with Christmas lunch.

As it happens alcohol's metabolites are quite water soluble, but that doesn't follow for all drugs. So that's a problem.

The other problem is the potential for new drugs to hit the market and be used before a test can be developed for them. In this scenario, you could have somebody show up to work highly impaired by the drug and still pee clean. That's an even bigger problem.

Indeed, the potential for people to be working whilst highly impaired but still able to pass drug tests is why I think we need to take a serious look at the way we test for them, at least when it comes to WHS and road safety. As much as I love analytical chemistry, and think it's a fine tool for detecting performance enhancing drugs in sport, I don't think it's good tool for testing impairment.

And it's the impairment that matters: the insomniac heavy vehicle operator who is highly impaired simply due to his lack of sleep is far more dangerous than the alert, well-rested one who had a spliff on Friday night 3 weeks ago. But there is no way to test for the insomniac's fatigue without directly testing his level of impairment. That is what we need to be measuring.

Hi there BENK...

Whether the drug ICE is out of your system in a few days is immaterial, it's against the law. And employer's have every right to expect their employees to attend work without any indication of illicit or licit drug use. Especially if they operate heavy machinery or drive the company's M/V's. In law it's termed, the 'foresight of consequences' and it's applicable, both in civil tort as well as; Traffic and the Criminal law, BENK.

Mate please understand, I'm not having a go at you, I can see you are of the belief that no employer has the right to interfere with an employee's private leisure time or what he does in that leisure time. However each of us does have a responsibility (morally) to do nothing in our leisure and private time, that might inhibit the safety; or otherwise compromise the job we're hired to perform, by engaging in an act that's both illegal and dangerous. That's it in essence my friend.

Hi there TONI LAVIS...

Wouldn't it be great if the local HWP members had just such a machine. One capable of accurately measuring a driver/operator of a M/V or heavy machinery whether that individual is in anyway impaired, through reasons of drugs, alcohol, or simply sleep deprived. I reckon it would certainly reduce the road toll and factory fatalities, almost by a good third.

Thank you BENK & TONI LAVIS.

I've had to hide workers from the boss, on a Sunday morning, because of their private leisure time imbibing on Saturday night and it's hard to hide somebody on a Sunday maintenance shift.
Not only makes it hard on the other workers but puts everyone on the spot; so from me they got one chance only, next offence and they were sent home and a written report went to management.

According to the Australian Conservatives website, a “twice convicted drug trafficker” has walked from court in South Australia with his second suspended sentence in 2 years. The maximum penalty for drug trafficking is 10 years jail.

“The Drug 'ICE' & what can be done about it?” Absolutely nothing, given our pathetic court system and independent judges and magistrates.