I have been hesitant for a week or two to start this thread, as a close friend of ours in presently in a hospice under palliative care, in the final stages of her life. Our friend has terminal cancer, she has fought a great battle for the past six years, and at only 44 years old of age “K” has not lived, and enjoyed life to the full.
I have nothing but admiration for the medical staff, and others, who have done their very best to treat, and care for our friend. their efforts cannot be questioned. What I do have issue with is the clinical and bureaucratic nature of how the “system of dying” in these circumstances is allowed to run its course, is it necessary? All the medical staff can do is “reassure” the family, her mum and dad included, that they will not allow her to suffer needlessly.
Given the final prognosis last Thursday that “K” has only one week to live, the best the system can offer is reassurance on pain and suffering, and ask her parents if the wish to take her home. The home offer was declined, as mum does not feel she would be capable of looking after her daughter, instead mum and dad are now living at the hospice for the remainder of their daughters life.
I have always believed in properly implemented euthanasia for anyone in these circumstances, their right to die with dignity. .

Paul,

While support to some degree the right to choose one's exit, I don't get any indication from your example that the daughter wanted to exit early?

'..mum and dad are now living at the hospice for the remainder of their daughters life'.

It is K's time. K and her family need space. Make space. That is all.
_________

What are you doing for yourself? Will etc?

I revised my own arrangements earlier this year and strove for simplicity, giving my chosen persons the broadest of powers, to act together or alone and ensuring they understood that was my trust and intention, no guilt, no mind-reading/worrying about what I might have done instead and instructed them to always look out for their own family and care.

Euthanasia is something practiced by a socially advanced society that has respect and dignity as it's cornerstones

Dear Paul,

I feel for your friend and her family.
It must be very difficult for them.
My mother as you know is in a dementia wing
of a nursing home. She's there because she's
unable to function. She can no longer take
care of herself. She's confused and disoriented.
She can still recognise her family visitors,
but her mind is substantially destroyed. She
cannot read, watch television, walk, use a
telephone and she's lost bladder and bowel
continence. She can't dress herself or
transfer from wheelchair to bathroom.

Still, she does look forward to our visits.
And we try to inter-act as much as we can.
I know that things will only get worse - and
it is only a matter of time before we lose her.
What will happen next, I am not sure.
Therefore I can't really say what I would do if
I were in the position that your friends are in
with their daughter. I don't know what I would
do in their situation. I feel that this is
something that few of us really know.

I shall pray for your friend and her family.
May they find the strength they need to see
this through.

God Bless.

Hi All,

What "K" did choose some weeks back was to stop all treatment for her cancer. She had, had enough, years of operations, chemo, ray treatment etc. Nothing had stopped the spread, starting in the bowl and spreading to other organs. Her grandmother died 7 years back in exactly the same circumstance, as did an uncle. The doctors have said it is hereditary. What "K" did opt for was pain relief only. The final stage of pain relief is the severing of the nerves in the spine, To be turned into a "vegetable" was something "K" told the doctor at the hospice she did not want done under any circumstances.
There have been a couple of bureaucratic issues along the way, getting the necessary approval for the use of Medical Cannabis, Something "K" was using at home, but not allowed in the state hospital, although it is approved by both Federal and State governments, its use had not been approved by the hospital's board, for use within the public hospital, strange that one. Then it was approved for use in the hospice. Federal authority was granted in 2 days, but the state bureaucrats in the NSW Health Dept dragged their feet for a week, then only to approve it, and then admitting their was no stock available, it was too late anyway. Last week half the palliative care ward closed in the hospice, the place is $12m in the red for the year, "K" was shifted to a very small room, they have no "family" accommodation in the place, mum is sleeping on a cot with "K" in this bloody small room.
We might think New Zealand is backward, "T"'s sister died in a hospice in the provincial town of Whangarei, pop about 60,000, not long ago. There was a large private room for her, plus an attached family room, with beds and cooking facilities for the whanau/family.

I am sorry to hear that some people have loved ones who are heading towards the end of their lives and suffering.

ilmessaggio's statement - "Euthanasia is something practiced by a socially advanced society that has respect and dignity as it's cornerstones" is absolutely correct and I agree wholeheartedly.

Years ago my mother suffered terribly during her death through cancer and I would never want anyone to go through that or see something like that.

My heart goes out to all people who have someone heading towards the end of their lives and who are doing it tough.

May we find better ways to assist them to end their lives with dignity and minimal pain and suffering.

@Paul1405, Tuesday, 5 December 2017 9:51:03 PM

It is concerning that the details of your storytelling are so case specific and the affected community so small, that family and friends might recognise it (medical staff too), with predictable confusion and painful outcomes.

What about leaving this for a time well later? It is not as though the politics can't wait.

Hi leoj, there is no politics involved, its just a somewhat faulty system our society has in place to deal with such matters. Nor should we be too sensitive and squeamish on this. Besides there is nothing here that has not been put up on 'Facebook'. I can assure you, some comments far more stinging that anything I have said.
Our friend is fully aware of her situation, and has insisted that she be told everything, and she has. Its hard for all, we have cried a lot already and will cry a lot more, but reality is what it is. Often the "normal" response is to keep the patient ignorant by not discussing matters with them, or even giving them false hope, keeping it just between family and friends which is not fair if its only to protect ones own sensibilities. I was surprised by the difference between what I have seen in NZ and what I see, and have previously experienced in Australia, although theirs was a much newer facility. NZ also has to accommodate the cultural requirements of particularly Maori people when it comes to dealing with death. Something Maori deal with, in my opinion, far better that we Europeans. Maori have a much longer process, and far more involvement of the living from the time of death, or if foreseen before death, right up to the stage of burial, and beyond, it is a much more spiritual and cleaning process that what we mostly employ. I can assure you, they suffer the pain of loss just as we do, maybe in general, because of the closeness of family, even more.

I have a very open view on this, others might prefer a closed view. I have had my own near death experience, with a heart attack more than 3 years ago, then having work done on the plumbing, and spending a couple of weeks in hospital.

Hi Paul,

My poor darling went nine years ago, very peacefully, surrounded by what seemed like dozens of relations and friends. She had only three weeks' notice and I suppose she was in as much shock as the rest of us. The palliative care staff were wonderful, she had a beautiful room overlooking a garden. The docs would ask her what was her pain level out of ten and she'd say, "Oh, maybe four." They told her (so she said) the she still had a couple of weeks, but she slipped away earlier, I hope still believing she had about another eight days. But no. On her last afternoon, we were getting a bit cuddly and I asked her, real romantic like, "What do you reckon ?" She thought about it and said, no, a nurse might come in. So we just kissed and held hands.

If there is such a thing as a beautiful death, I would like to go the same way. Then we could be together forever. Paul, you bastard, now you've made me cry :)

Maybe I might have a different view if she had been in great pain, but she wasn't. Systems should provide the best palliative care possible, it really matters.

Joe

Loudmouth (Jo)
you point out that death, as life,is not always equal or fair.

Some deaths are more painful, slow and agonising, whilst other deaths are probably quicker and or more peaceful and can be more adequately medicated.

I once heard that Drs said, pneumonia was a dying persons friend and towards the end was a more peaceful way of dying as you got dozy and fell into a coma as the air was slowly cut off. But I don't know if this is true, I have only heard this is so.

I think if the dying process becomes agonising for anyone they should be allowed to die
using modern drugs to make it a more peaceful death if they so wish.

Why should anyone have the right to deprive anyone else of this choice..
And if Drs object to doing it. then give the patient the drug to take themselves and allow them to die peacefully with their family around their bedside.

I think the system plays God in denying this option in the face of severe suffering
but they should keep in mind that they are not God. And every time they resuscitate someone, how do they know that this isn't against the will of God. If they believe that only God has the power of life and death then why do they go against this by resuscitating someone who is dying. If they believe they can override God by bringing back and treating someone who is dying, then it follows they can allow someone in agony to die peacefully if they so wish. To allow one and not the other is hypocritical.

Many decades ago births and deaths happened when
they happened, often without medical intervention.
If a baby was too premature or defective, or if
a seriously ill person was dying, there was little
the family doctor could do about it other than to
offer comfort.

Today, most Australians are born and die in hospitals
under the supervision of medical personnel who
sometimes decide to keep them alive long beyond the
point at which they would normally have died. Patients
can be hooked up to machines that sustain their lives.
and this step may be taken even if they are in constant
pain are terminally ill or even in some cases if they
are permanently comatose.

Therefore technologies that were intended to save people
from unnecessary death may actually have the effect of
depriving them of a dignified death.

Physicians are expected to do all they can to sustain
life. I am glad that in Victoria at least the euthanasia
Bill has been passed. I believe that patients who are
terminally ill, and suffering and do not want their
life to continue to be preserved, their doctors should
allow them to die in peace and serenity surrounded by
their family members. The pursuit of a vigorous
therapy would benefit no one except their own satisfaction
in thwarting death, regardless of the consequences.

Hi Cherful,

Yes, of course, better palliative care AND protection of the rights to die at a time of one's choosing - only one's own, nobody else involved.

Yes, even if someone takes a fatal dose, that should be their right BUT there would have to be very clear guide-lines that nobody else was involved, and certainly not someone who might stand to benefit from the distribution of their assets after death. This always seems be the stumbling block: how to ensure that nobody else has been involved, since that could constitute murder.

Whether, as in the Vic legislation, a team of doctors and others would be able to administer, or assist a dying person to administer, fatal medication (perhaps an oxymoron), surely the whole procedure would have to be filmed ? And perhaps overseen by a specialised member of the police force ?

Cheers,

Joe