When will the United States realize that enough is enough. Once more that country has been racked by outrageous gun violence. In the latest atrocity, lone gunman Steven Paddock armed with an arsenal of automatic weapons, shot and killed at least 59 people, and injured over 500 others attending a country music festival in Las Vegas.
This sickening crime has once more highlighted the consequences of lax gun control laws, America should be a lesson for all. The message for Australia is clear, our State and Federal Governments must not only resist pressure from the pro gun lobby to ease, or repeal existing robust gun laws, but they must endeavor to, where ever possible, strengthen tough gun control measures. Stop the possibility here, before it is too late!

The ambulance chasers are out, making unsustainable assertions before the facts are known.
Malcolm Turnbull was early into the act, vote-catching at any price.

He was beaten however by Hillary Clinton who was super quick off the mark with some stupid claims that only added to her reputation for ignorance.

not sure if taking guns off those who have not committed crime is the answer. In saying that it seems ridiculous for anyone other than law enforcement having semi automatics. vile tweets from Trump haters also have shown that their hearts are just a vile as the murderer.

Paul,

For once I agree with you.

Oh just put a bloody sock in it Is Mise. You and your ilk are prepared to risk this death and misery once again upon this country because of some incredibly selfish desire to dial back our gun laws, laws that were forged as a response to a similar massacre.

Enough.

Issy, the facts about US gun control, or the lack of, has been well documented for a very long time now. The shock with Las Vegas is not that it happened, but the magnitude of the carnage. Even the most ardent pro gun must realize that given the strong influence of the US Gun Lobby in law making that these mass shooting are inevitable. There are no new facts to know.

Call it ambulance chasing if you want, but the reality for Australia is here and now, and it is the fact the pro gun lobby is constantly pushing for the relaxation of our robust gun laws. The lesson for Australia to learn from Las Vegas, and from the previous atrocity's in the United States is to be vigilant when it comes to gun control, not allowing it to be white anted by a selfish vested interest minority of pro gun advocates.

runner said "not sure if taking guns off those who have not committed crime is the answer." Two days ago Stephan Paddock had committed no crime either. At what point do you take the guns away? After the event.

Steele,

Get emotional it becomes you, wait till the whole story comes out and allow the dead to be buried before dancing with glee on their graves.

Political point scoring has no place in the narrative yet, don't be a dill like Hillary Clinton and Paul.

'runner said "not sure if taking guns off those who have not committed crime is the answer." Two days ago Stephan Paddock had committed no crime either. At what point do you take the guns away? After the event.'

can't give a clear answer Paul. As I stated maybe a ban on semi autos except for law enforcement would seem a sensible approach.

What is of concern to me in my home state of NSW is over recent years there has been a dramatic increase in the number of firearms in private hands. In 2015 there were over 850,000 licenced guns in the state, how many illegal guns, can't even guess, far too many to feel comfortable with, that is for sure. Why so many? Is the potential there for another Port Arthur type incident, I believe there is. Most politicians are so scared of the gun lobby that they refuse to take the necessary steps to head off any possible disaster.

Is Mise Quote "Hillary Clinton who was super quick off the mark with some stupid claims that only added to her reputation for ignorance."

You could have at least posted what she said.

Sorry to say your post is useless we only have your interpretation for what Turnbull and Clinton said.

Refreshing that that the fools who draw parallels between number of deaths on road and deaths caused by terrorism are not out and about.

So called celebrities will now come out of the woodwork to attempt to raise their own profiles and agenda.

Number 1

http://www.news.com.au/entertainment/tv/current-affairs/this-will-happen-again-waleed-alys-furious-response-to-las-vegas-shooting-on-the-project/news-story/f255d47b1451482b00812f75243a7732

“This will happen again”: Waleed Aly’s furious response to Las Vegas shooting on The Project

THE Project host fumed tonight, berating Donald Trump over the one reason behind the worst mass shooting in US history.

IN A despairing response to the mass shooting in Las Vegas, Waleed Aly has hit out at US politicians, saying they are too cowardly to face up to the real reason a seemingly ordinary man managed to kill almost 60 people.

The Project host also berated US President Donald Trump, noting the National Rifle Association (NRA) — the main organisation fighting gun control — contributed millions to his presidential campaign.

“The truth about this act is not how evil it is, but how incredibly ordinary it has become,” he said on Tuesday’s night’s show on Channel 10. “This will happen again.”

At least 59 people died and 527 were injured when Stephen Paddock, 64, opened fire from the Mandalay Bay hotel into a 22,000-strong crowd of fans at a country music festival.

Celebrity fool as if Trump is going to listen to him, Aly knows he won't but this is done to further Waleed Aly. EPIC FAIL.

//You could have at least posted what she said.//

It was this:

"We can and must put politics aside, stand up to the NRA, and work together to try to stop this from happening again."

So you can see why that would upset Is Mise. He seems to think that the sun shines out of the NRA's arse.

Philip S,

Her idiot remarks were on the news channels, but in essence what she said was that it would have been worse if the gunman had had silencers, shewing that she was completely ignorant of the effect that silencers have on high velocity rounds.
She was attempting to score points off the fact that the NRA has been lobbying to have the laws on silencers/suppressors relaxed.

Toni,

You left a bit out, I wonder why?

"Hillary Clinton took heat Monday for issuing what critics called an “ignorant” and “irrelevant” statement going after the NRA and silencers in the hours after the Las Vegas mass shooting.
As details were still emerging about the worst mass shooting in modern U.S. history – which killed at least 58 people – the 2016 Democratic presidential nominee took to Twitter to imagine how much deadlier the massacre might have been if silencers had been used."

Her quoted words:

“The crowd fled at the sound of gunshots. Imagine the deaths if the shooter had a silencer, which the NRA wants to make easier to get,” she tweeted, adding: “Our grief isn't enough. We can and must put politics aside, stand up to the NRA, and work together to try to stop this from happening again.”
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/10/02/las-vegas-shooting-clinton-blasts-nra-fellow-dems-renew-call-for-gun-control-after-attack.htm

Must give you points, though, for using 'arse'
rather than the euphemistic 'ass'.

Well I'd like to share my 2 cents on this, but it's not in regards to guns.
I'd like to have a gripe about the news;
- In 2017 News isn't news, it's just; well.. 'something pretending to be something that it's not'.
Like if you ordered a nice steak or roast meal, and they came back with a plate of chum, served in the can-shape straight from the can.

I read this article just before dated this evening.

http://www.theage.com.au/world/how-las-vegas-killer-brought-22-guns-and-10000-bullets-into-a-hotel-20171002-gyt3d5.html

* "More than 24 hours after the shooting, authorities still had no indication of a motive."

Why is that?
Or should I say 'In 2017' why is that?
How can they be so incompetent and not know anything?

Why did we not see police shoulder-cam footage of the FBI HRT entering the hotel room, or footage of the active shooter?
Why don't we see Hotel camera footage of what he was doing in the lead-up to the event?
Why don't we have a complete profile of the 2 people in question from their public facebook profiles, their online browsing habits?
Why don't we know who these people were affiliated with - I've heard reports there was ANTIFA documentation all over the shooters room, but since we don't know for sure, it's conjecture and we all end up arguing over unproven facts that we should be given.
Why don't we know who their friends (including online) and family were and why have the media not gone and paid for these peoples inside stories?
Why does it take so long to get vital information such as a toxicology report, to know what drugs were in his system, and whether he was acting in a manner that may have been the side effects of prescription/illegal drugs, whether he had questionable psychological history, financial or relationship troubles or radical (left or right) ideology?

Why in 2017 in the age of technology do we know so little when something like this happens?
Why in 2017 do we not know absolutely everything already?

I'm calling 'incompetence', it's not news, it's chum.

To Armchair Critic. What you ask for takes time and man hours. Especially given the high numbers of victims and deaths, there are other concerns that are being dealt with at the same time as the investigation. 24 hours is not that much time.

To anyone else. If any of you have a faith or a relationship with God. Please pray for the US. For Las Vegas. And for the world as a whole. We live in a broken and breaking world. Especially after events like this please show your concern and give your prayers for the people who need them.

Issy, you always try to deflect the argument with a "technical" response. The only thing we all need to know about guns is, "GUNS KILL". I am not ashamed to admit if I had my way I would remove every gun off the planet.
Obviously the United States has very serious gun issues, only a fool would argue otherwise. What concerns me, is what we have control over in our own country, and that is our response to guns. Fortunately we are not in the same dire position as the US, and we don't want to be, but we have those within, Issy you are one of them, who believe that we are too tough on guns and gun owners, and laws should be relaxed, I would argue we are not tough enough. You have put up many discussions on guns, and others and I have argued the point with you that robust gun laws are an absolute necessity.
Shocking as it is, what good Las Vegas tells us is we can't afford to be complacent, we can't afford to give way to vested interest within, that want relaxation of gun control. What we should do is review our own position and take the necessary steps to make it tougher on guns, both legal and illegal, Howard did it after Port Arthur, to the best of his ability, the warning signs have returned, and its time to do it again. Issy you may not like that, you may feel as an honest gun owner, you are being victimised in some way. So be it.

Persons living in American have murdered nearly 12,000 of their own using guns since the beginning of the 2017. Claiming their right to carry firearms is killing their security and stability as a society.

Paul,

One of the things that I object to is the Greens propensity to use a tragedy to score political points with such indecent haste as you did in the OP.
I also object to the exaggeration, ".... armed with an arsenal of automatic weapons, shot and killed at least 59 people, and injured over 500 others"

I doubt that he had any automatic weapons, as such weapons are strictly controlled and extremely expensive in the USA, the number that he killed is not in doubt but your claim that he injured over 500 is ludicrous, for it takes no account of the injuries sustained in the rush to leave the area. He may well be accused of being ultimately responsible for them but he didn't cause all of them in the manner that you intimate.

//You left a bit out, I wonder why?//

Because it wasn't relevant. It doesn't matter many decibels the damn things register: the fundamental purpose for which they are designed is to propel a metal projectile at extremely high velocity through human flesh, resulting in injury/disability/death.

That's the problem. That's why we need fewer of them, not more of them.

But just because the bit about silencers is of little relevance, it does not follow that her comments about putting politics aside, standing up to the NRA, and working together to stop this again are irrelevant or invalid.

Although they seem to have fallen on deaf ears in your case.

The truly evil thing is that there are no crazed gunmen, only paid assassins.

A senior citizen with no criminal record carries heavy loads of guns/ammo into a Vegas hotel/*casino* and nobody notices anything suspicious?
Shots are heard from more than one direction/level.
Antifa materials conveniently found in room (Why bring them?).

Crowd chosen to threaten Trump supporters: country music festivals attract White conservatives, not purple haired hipster communists and "oppressed" minorities.

It's America's problem to solve not ours; we have the most draconian gun laws in the world thanks to the Howard knee-jerk, so it is not going to happen here. Besides, gun killings are a cultural American thing. There is no significant pressure in Australia to ease gun laws.

I couldn't care less about the regular gun massacres in America, but I find it interesting that the first posters to pontificate about such things here are those who hate America and our alliance with it.

Putting politics aside?
Hillary doesn't know what that means.
Her opinion is obviously political.

Toni,

"But just because the bit about silencers is of little relevance, it does not follow that her comments about putting politics aside, standing up to the NRA, and working together to stop this again are irrelevant or invalid."

That's not why she was criticized in the Us but because of her ignorance and indecent haste in trying to score a political point out of the tragedy.
It is also irrelevant what sort of firearms he had or the number, given his vantage point and the density of the crowd the same carnage could have been achieved with a single shot rifle or shotgun.

according to this crazy man's brother the killer had no religion (atheist/secularist) or ideology. Of course we have been told by the god deniers that watching porn and violence privately does not affect others. I suspect this is another case among thousands of others where that ideology again proven fake.

ttbn, put up or shut up, where have I ever said "I hate America". I have been there and I found the people, friendly and polite in general, as I have found with people wherever I have traveled. You seem to have an uncaring attitude towards others with the "I couldn't care less about the regular gun massacres in America", that's you in a nutshell. Its not my attitude, but I don't hate you for being that way, its something you have to live with, not me.

As a pacifists I disagree with governments, including my own, whenever they act violently towards others.
Your; "our alliance with it (ANZUS Treaty), its not something I agree with. believing Australia would be better served as a non aligned nation. You most likely have a different opinion on that as well.

Is Mise,

Clearly you haven't seen the footage of the massacre then.

<<I doubt that he had any automatic weapons ...>>

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-10-02/las-vegas-shooting-captured-on-video-by-witnesses/9008870

Given the rate of fire and the sheer number of bullets fired into the crowd, I don't see how 500 being injured is "ludicrous" at all.

It sounds to me like you are desperately trying to downplay the role of the guns in any way you can.

I have to agree with Paul1405 on this one, I think we'd be better off non-aligned and making decisions based on our own interests rather than being part of the globalist establishment.
Of course one must assume that the second we broke the leash we'd be a target of the globalist establishment, they'd try twice as hard to ferment civil unrest and pull us back in line, or install a leader that was more preferable to them.

At the end of the day America has a history of showing contempt for democracy rather than supporting it.
They support it only when it suits their geopolitical agenda of installing someone preferable.

They aren't fit to be global hegemon.

I don't like gang mentality of manipulating and undermining other nations, in fact I vehemently oppose it.

'The Grand Chessboard' can go and get stuffed.
All I care about is what's best for our country and it's citizens.
And I say that with the personal opinion that the long term 'Aussies' get more of a say and new imports empowered by foreign philanthropists money to become progressive neo-liberal fascists, and yell and scream and create civil unrest with their faces covered getting less of a say.

Hey Is Mise,
He definitely had automatic weapons, didn't you hear the gunfire?

AJ,

"Given the rate of fire and the sheer number of bullets fired into the crowd, I don't see how 500 being injured is "ludicrous" at all.

It sounds to me like you are desperately trying to downplay the role of the guns in any way you can"

Not at all but I am in favour of accurate reporting, and the injured rate compared to the kill rate indicates that many of the injured were hurt other than by gunfire.

AC,

"He definitely had automatic weapons, didn't you hear the gunfire?"

Yes, I did and that's one of the reasons that I don't think that he had automatic weapons; I might be wrong but based on the hundreds of thousands of rounds of automatic fire that I have heard, then I don't think that he had automatics.

Is Mise
"The deadliest mass shooting in modern U.S. history left at least 59 dead and more than 520 people injured". This is in numerous on-line newspapers, but I've quoted here Fox News, in case you don't believe the Australian or the ABC ( http://www.foxnews.com/live-coverage/las-vegas-massacre).

"Among the firearms were AR-15-style semiautomatic and AK-47-style automatic rifles. Automatic rifles which meet the legal definition of a machine gun, can fire continuously with one pull of a trigger and are heavily restricted under federal law." This one is from The Australian.

The New York Times has a video of the shooting where a marine vet analyses the sound of the gunfire, identifying the weapons used (automatic and/or semi-automatic modified to be automatic) and explaining why. It's disturbing, but informative. https://www.nytimes.com/video/us/100000005473223/las-vegas-shooting-guns.html?emc=edit_th_20171003&nl=todaysheadlines&nlid=55689460 . You may hit a paywall with this.

//That's not why she was criticized in the Us but because of her ignorance and indecent haste in trying to score a political point out of the tragedy.//

Yes, what an evil cow that Clinton bitch is. Speaking in favour of gun control after another mass shooting? How dare she!

I don't see any mention of Republicans in her comments, Is Mise. And the NRA are not a political party.

But go ahead and try to make this into a political football if it matters that much to you, Is Mise. Clearly it's more important to you to put that that uppity Clinton woman be put in her place than it is that mass-murderers stop shooting innocent civilians.

Wow! I obviously don't understand what an automatic weapon is then.

I always thought an automatic weapon was a gun that could fire continuously when the trigger was held down; as opposed to a semi-automatic, which fires a single shot each time the trigger is pressed, without the need to reload; or a single-shot rifle, which requires reloading after each shot.

Please, Is Mise, tell us what the difference is between an automatic weapon and the rapid-fire weapon which can be heard in the videos? Do automatics fire even FASTER than that?

Michael Moore in his film, "Bowling for Columbine,"
discovered a startling statistic: that more than 11,000
Americans are killed each year in gun murders, while
the figures in Britain and most other countries are under
100.

One might think gun control was the obvious solution,
and that it would solve the problem,
but Moore points out that guns are equally available in
Canada which has no such crisis on its hands. Moore goes
on to say that the problem is deeper in the United States.
The problem lies within the American culture of fear
and paranoia. That it lies within -
the American national psyche.

As one leader of a militia group stated -

"The pen is mightier than the sword, but I keep a sword
handy for when the pen fails."

Race and violence are inseparable in the popular imagination
in the United States, according to Moore.
The culture of fear saturates America's
social fabric, and it is now spreading across the world.

If we decide to beat up on the poor, the immigrants, the
have-nots, and if we allow -
Government institutionalised violence
towards them, this will ultimately create a violent society.

See also https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/10/02/us/vegas-guns.htm. This has graphs of fire rate for several recent massacre shootings. The link I gave earlier has diagrams, but this one actually includes a video showing how to modify a semi-automatic with a bump stock so that it fires as fast as an automatic (but makes a slightly different noise).

I don't know what happened in LV, nor the precise type of F/A's deployed in order to achieve such utter carnage. What I do know, it MUST stop! Can't the Republicans see what's happening under their existing political policy together with their alignment with the NRA. In fact they must urgently examine their entire policy on the question of possession and use of F/A's altogether. To do otherwise, could well result in another LV; a Sandy Hook; or Port Arthur.

As far as Australia is concerned, and as a former Licensing Police Officer, there are many hole's yet to be plugged in our own Legislation, but thankfully we're miles ahead of our American cousins on the question of 'F/A limitation'. But as far as those suffering from mental health problems, who apply for, or who currently hold a licence, much greater scrutiny must be ensured, to reduce, as far as possible, any chance that this type of senseless carnage is not repeated here.

I include myself in that last sentence. I've been a DVA recipient of 100% War Pension, due to my own Military Service, and as such, had to declare it on my F/A's application. I suffer from a mental illness, PTSD. Therefore the licencing police required me to submit myself to a Psychiatric Examination, before accepting my application. Many, many people fail to disclose the fact they have a mental illness, irrespective of how benign it might seem, and that's a real worry for licensing police in Australia. It's a potential danger, if an individual is mentally unstable and is allowed access to a gun, particularly on Domestic Violence jobs, if attending police have no knowledge of mental instability, yet they're made aware, he has a F/A licensed to him! A potential hazard for sure!

Oh, okay. Thanks for that, Cossomby. I never realised that even semi-automatics could present such a danger, with a bit of tinkering.

Of course the grubs would be active and would be trying their best to make secondary gain out of this and wouldn't be waiting for the completion of police investigations and coroners' reports.

It is truly disgusting that the Greens and PM Turnbull are indulging in shabby ambulance-chasing to make political points out of a horrendous crime.

There is the unseemly rush to oversimplify and frame the dreadful murders as 'gun control', not even effective regulation, to suit their own cynical political needs. No mention of the explosives, commercial and products.

Yet offenders choose random slaughter of vulnerable innocents, exactly for that publicity. It is a common theme of such dreadful crimes. The politicians, commentariat and tabloids already know that, but their cynicism and self-interest rule. They know they are building the 'gold standard' of the horrific, attention-getting crime for the potential offenders who are watching, but who might very well not do it themselves if the cachet for everlasting notoriety is not in it.

Is Mise,

In deferring to your gunsmithing and armourer's expertise, as well as your other skills, I would nonetheless like to agree with your comment that it was unlikely to be fire from an automatic firearm. The rate of fire was too slow IMHO. I reckon the offender has deliberately bodgied up a semi-automatic.

Of course the 'meeja' don't care about facts or else they would be more circumspect and waiting for police reports. However, anything that can excite the dumbed-down hysterics is fodder for them, and can be worked over from all angles. Garbage in and garbage out for the idiots.

Just commenting on sounds of shot, that is most often than not very misleading, being affected by geographical features, particularly those big glass city canyons. Then the is the mixture of the double sound of each round (crack, boom) and the echoes.

Fortunately the skilled professionals who are already investigating know that and more. They will be doing their work in the background.

But now it is time for condolences and to support the loved ones.

There's a fair bit of info coming out now, some of which questions the official narrative.
Mike Rivero from 'What Really Happened' Radio show has done a decent job going through the logical questions.
http://youtu.be/sr9vbjwN-TA

- Not necessarily conspiratorial in nature, but just covering all the valid questions that should be asked.
This is why I'm disappointed in modern news.
The longer they take coming out with rock solid facts, the more disinformation becomes bandied around and before long it's all just mush and the average person doesn't really have a clue what happened.

O Sung Wu,
I've always wondered why there isn't some kind of 'voluntary storage' for owners of firearms if they are going through tough times in their life where they might think that the guns would be better out of their reach, if only temporarily.

It probably sounds a little silly, but if it stopped a tragedy that wouldn't be a bad thing.

A person might be fit to have a firearm in their possession at the time of licensing, but they may go through times where they are not fit (and know it) to have a gun around.

Relationship breakups, excessive drinking, unstable mental state etc.

Paul,

I will neither put up nor shot up. I like to be honest, and I see you as anti-American in principle.

My 'don't care' attitude is also honest. I do not care about this particular incident. People really do not have the capacity to 'feel' for people they do not know. The only time shock/horror can be genuine is when it is family or someone close. The current gushing by the me-too types and the media is cuttingly called 'conspicuous compassion'. "Look at me: am I not ever so nice and kindly".

I daresay I would feel regret if something happened to you - a person I 'know'; but I do prefer honesty and realism to bulldust I cannot possibly feel.

"Please, Is Mise, tell us what the difference is between an automatic weapon and the rapid-fire weapon which can be heard in the videos? Do automatics fire even FASTER than that?"

Some automatics fire so fast as to be almost uncontrollable, the famous 'Burp' gun got its name from the rapidity of a burst of fire; some others sound like a piece of canvas being ripped.

The guns used may have been illegally obtained automatics but they don't sound like autos to me, I may well be wrong; they are probably speeded up semi-automatic(s), however, the type of gun(s) used is irrelevant.

Foxy's post is relevant, very much so.

Leoj

"Just commenting on sounds of shot, that is most often than not very misleading, being affected by geographical features, particularly those big glass city canyons. Then the is the mixture of the double sound of each round (crack, boom) and the echoes."

The analysis in the links I posted earlier took all that into account: the difference between the sound of automatic and modified semi-automatic; between the actual shots and air crack; the reverberation off the buildings, which made it hard to 'hear' where the gunfire came from.

One thing I'm having trouble buying -

That he moved all those weapons including ammo into his room after the last hotel room cleaner has cleaned his room earlier.
Why did he need all those guns?
And how come nobody saw anything?

It seems valid to me that one would only need a few guns, and mostly ammo.
It's seems weird that he had that arsenal there as if to frighten the public when they saw it all, rather than actually use everything he took.

It doesn't seem to fit that he be a white supremacist, why would he fire on mainly white conservatives at a country music concert?
Also he had a filipino girlfriend and had visited their family and the demographics of Clark Country sways more towards the left.

I'm not necessarily saying I don't believe the official narrative, but I need more info before I'll be convinced of anything.

He apparently video recorded himself during the act.
I want to see footage of the active shooter, I want to be sure he was pulling the trigger.

Heres something else I want to share -
About 5 or 6 hours after it happened when everyone was saying the gunman shot himself, Alex Jones got a phone call and reported that the FBI HRT had instead taken him out.
It's a day and a half later now, but it seems this news is now being circulated within the MSM.
Now whats interesting is that at the same time Alex reported this, he also reported that there was all sorts of ANTIFA crap strewn all over the room.

Now we have reports "Breaking! Sheriff Says Vegas Shooter May Have Been Radicalized: FBI Found ANTIFA / Islamic Material In Room"

http://www.infowars.com/breaking-sheriff-says-vegas-shooter-may-have-been-radicalized-fbi-found-antifa-islamic-material-in-room/

Not sure the truth of it at this point...

Hi there ARMCHAIR CRITIC...

That's a brilliant Idea to have a safe and secure storage facility, where a person may secure his weapons, while he's going through an emotional time. In Sydney some of the larger Gun Dealers would safely house you gun(s) for a modest fee, when people were away for some time, or for reasons known only to themselves. There was a requirement where Dealers are required whenever they took custody of them, by making an appropriate notation in their books in order to maintain a chain of custody of the guns & their whereabouts? Your idea ARMCHAIR CRITIC has considerable merit in my opinion. One thing is abundantly clear, this individual is insane. No sane human being could possibly wantonly kill a mass of innocent people regardless of what it was, that motivated him to do so?

Issy, you try and blame the victims "that he injured over 500 is ludicrous, for it takes no account of the injuries sustained in the rush to leave the area." How inconsiderate of people, couldn't they show some decorum and leave in an orderly fashion.
Should I be pursued by one of your gunnie freaks, blazing away at me with his supa dupa shoota, and should I in my haste to escape accidentally fall over a cliff, then.. oh well... serves me right for not watch where I'm going. Right Issy.

Leoj who previously on this forum trumpeted his support for a privately controlled, well armed Citizens Militia, no doubt with himself leading the parade. He now cries foul that anyone would want to raise questions of gun control following this atrocity. According to Leoj its unseemly,to do so, just sit back and say nothing, cop it sweet, and hope it all goes away, then its back to (gun) business as usual. Leoj fortunately the majority of Australians don't think like you.

Paul,
You said that he injured over 500 people, I was merely pointing out that you had no grasp of facts and were only exaggerating and ambulance chasing, like a good Green.

Latest on the news is that he didn't have any automatic weapons.

Didn't you say ".... armed with an arsenal of automatic weapons."

How silly of me, Issy as the expert you claim to be, am I better of if I am shot dead by an automatic weapon, or a semi automatic weapon?
In no way does the weapons used mitigate the crime. Dead is dead! Unless you have some other spin to put on it.

The jack-in-the-box will be alone shortly to claim its only the good folk who have guns, or should I say legitimate assets as he likes to call them.

The guns he had were legal, they were modified.

He had two "bump-stocks" that would have allowed a semi-automatic gun to shoot more like an automatic weapon.

The devices replace the gun's shoulder rest with a "support step" that covers the trigger opening, using the recoil from the gun's firing to bump the user's finger to "bump" the trigger, allowing it to fire at a faster rate. The modification can be bought online for $160.

The Stupidity of this is even though legal to own they are illegal to use.

I think all of us feel some empathy towards the victims and their families and maybe a little anger (in various directions) of why such a horrific mass murder of innocents took place.
So many people and their families have been affected by this, and many will never be the same.

Although this is perhaps not the right time to point it out, I feel I should make aware the fact the US military probably kills and maims far more innocent civilians in much worse circumstances every single week of every single year; endlessly.

And we're not talking about simply being shot up, but of innocent women and kids being bombed and droned into body-bits.
Every single day, every single week, every single year.

Not to take away from this tragedy but maybe we should instead look at the weapons the US military uses legitimately to kill innocents in the name of 'collateral damage' in wars they themselves start.

Hillary was worried about use of silencers.
How about if the shooter had used an M134 and RPG's instead?
http://youtu.be/AdcnmQEHqS8

Americans seem to have this built-in culture of wanting to unleash awesome firepower on others.

' Americans seem to have this built-in culture of wanting to unleash awesome firepower on others.'

and planned parenthood are the worse as they target the most vulnerable.

Face the facts, Paul, you exaggerated and not for the first time.

Don't try and weasel out.

Runner: The irony is that America, the country where more civilians are killed by firearms, is also one of the strongest anti-abortion. Further, those on the right who are more likely to be anti-abortion, are also more likely to be pro-guns.

We'll make sure you get born, regardless of circumstances, but after that ... you're fair game!

I'd be interested if anyone can come up with an explanation of this.

AC, be careful, ttbn will accuse you of being an American hater. The world problem as I see it, is the necessity for the United States, which is about 4% of the Worlds population, occupying about 4% of the Worlds land mass, having to enforce their will on the entire planet. That population is consuming about one third of the Worlds resources, while accumulating about one third of the Worlds wealth at the same time. They are not even doing that equably among themselves with about 10% of Americans accounting for 90% of that consumption and wealth accumulation. What the Americans are good at is using their very large military apparatus, paid for by that wealth, to enforce inequality throughout the World, they call it serving "American interest". Its a modern form of British colonialism.

Sorry Issy, I got it all wrong, there's no problem, the bloke didn't use automatic weapons according to your narrow definition. Should he come-a-calling we can all rest easy in our beds with that comforting thought that he's not going to use auto weapons on us. As a supporter of the Australian chapter of NRA what is that orgs take on this latest mass killing in the US? Business as usual.

"Malcolm Turnbull says the politics around gun ownership in America are “almost beyond comprehension” to most Australians.

Reflecting on the Las Vegas tragedy, the Prime Minister said that although Australia’s gun laws were among the strictest in the world, there was “no place for set and forget in any area of national security”. ABSOLUTELY MR TURNBULL , could not agree more.

Those with the notion that it "can't happen in Australia" are living in a fools paradise, or have a vested interest, it can and it has. We need to constantly review our gun laws, tighten them where necessary, and not be influenced by those that seek to diminish or remove such laws. Our relatively strict gun control measures, need reviewing and strengthening. Get on to it Mr Turnbull, and your State counterparts as well, thinking Australians will all support you.

//Latest on the news is that he didn't have any automatic weapons.//

The news says that he had an AK-47, Is Mise. Kalashnikovs are selective-fire weapons: they can be used in semi-automatic or fully-automatic mode. I suppose technically a selective-fire weapon is not a fully-automatic, but doesn't that seem like splitting hairs to you when the AK-47 does have a fully-automatic mode?

Paul,

"Sorry Issy, I got it all wrong, there's no problem, the bloke didn't use automatic weapons according to your narrow definition"

Not a narrow definition at all but the definition that is accepted worldwide.

Toni,

An AK47 is an automatic weapon but the reports that I've so far seen say that he had modified semi-autos, time will tell.

Cossomby "I'd be interested if anyone can come up with an explanation of this."

Anti-abortion = defending human lives
Gun owners = defending human lives

Pretty obvious.
The "right to bear arms" is defensive, not offensive.
As if the constitution would enshrine the "right" to violently aggress!

Paul,

No. I will not accuse AC of being an America hater. I haven't read his posts. After a few posts on any subject, OLO posters seem to forget what the subject is about and waffle on, boring for Australia as usual.

Hey Paul1405,
Maybe he would, our opinions differ on some issues, but on many issues regards Australia I think we're on the same team.
It's ok if he criticises me, it's called online opinion, we've all got our opinions and we can't express them without allowing others to respond.
So yes I think he'd be critical of my criticism of the US, but if he read my comments I think he'd understand why I hold the opinion I do.
If he didn't, well he's his own person and he's got just as much a right to an opinion as anyone.

I just don't like the global gang mentality, and the underhanded intervening in the politics of other countries.
It's not sinister, my criticism is for the right reasons, I believe.

On the other hand, I kind of do support the US Constitution including the 2nd amendment, and I know you'd be critical of my opinions on that.
I understand the reason it's there, though situations like this can challenge one's resolve.

The constitution sets out the not so much the 'rights' of government, but the 'limits of its power', it's a contract 'WITH' the people; and the Bill of Rights is the 'rights' OF the people. (If I understand correctly)
The 2nd Amendment is 'supposed' to be the 'final check and balance' on a tyrannical government.
These things came into being after the war with the British and their Independence.
So the whole thing about US gun culture, the core of it, is that US citizens have a right to overthrow a tyrannical government if it ever oversteps its powers upon them.

- And at some level, the citizens should've risen up and gotten rid of all those swamprats in congress.
- And so the US government is petrified of 'The Soverign Citizen'; 'The Patriot', 'The Returned War Veteran'...

If they aren't going to stand up to their corrupt leaders and remove them, there's not a lot of point in it.
But conservatives are well, mostly pretty conservative, and it's the left training and arming up for a coming revolution.

Another thing I want to quickly say, communism and socialism seems to be on the rise - and I gave everyone the real answers to end all this crap ages ago - remember this:

My idea last year for 'Socialist Base Level Jobs', that take advantage of the 5% unemployed that capitalism requires for a pool of job applicants.
Double dole payment - 'The job you have when you don't have a job', Removing the 'I can't get a job' excuse and of 'Creating a culture of employment within the ranks of the unemployed', based on creating jobs, national projects with training and incentives, doing things to help the government save money.
Remember cost of infrastructure doubles every 10yrs...
Anyways...

I told you all how to do it last year, to finely tune our system of government.
I think the thread I started was called 'Work for the Dole 2.0'

Hi there PHILIP S...

You stated the guns this bloke had, were both legal and were modified? With respect how would you know? I'm in no way questioning your information, but I've not heard of this procedure, nor the piece of kit one can ostensibly purchase, licitly or illicitly to enable a shooter to engage in this sequence of 'bumps'. Thus allowing the weapon to deliver full automatic fire?

Conceding this process was employed by this bloke, how would he prevent a series of 'cook offs' or 'stove piping' as the receiver and barrel got hotter? Especially as this person's finger is being continually 'bumped' as it were? My days on the M.60 GPMG, it was not unexpected to have a 'cook off' after c.100rds if one panicked? And that was a gun designed to dissipate heat, as far as possible during it's operation.

Moreover weapons with a semi-automatic function are often designed differently particularly those of the West, as opposed to Nations of the Warsaw Pact. So it must be quite difficult for any anyone to find this piece of kit, that essentially operates on all types of F/A's? Or is it a case of 'one size fits all'

Thank you PHILIP S.

AC,

Everything bad is "on the rise" in the West. What we now have in Australia - liberal democracy - which is very similar to communism in that it is driven by ideology, not democracy, which is what we had before the Left slipped in the 'liberal' bit.

Now, I've got off the topic, too :).

Shockadelic:
"Pretty obvious.
The "right to bear arms" is defensive, not offensive.
As if the constitution would enshrine the "right" to violently aggress!"

That may be the theory. But it's obvious that some people clearly think and act on the principle that the right to bear arms = the right to violently aggress. And the political and legal decisions regarding gun control clearly reinforce this.

It seems all that's needed to justify aggression is a threat. (eg Trump: If you threaten us, we'll use fire and the fury like the world has never seen.) And if the cultural mindset is focussed on fear and violence, anything can be interpreted as a threat

The lunacy of taking guns off the farmer and wife who recently defended themselves from an armed burglar in NSW is probably a good reason why many in America would oppose changes to gun laws. Crimminals often get off free while these farmers have to put up with such c ap.

o sung wu - The info was from a number of sources.

I was reading the thread a number of people were talking about the guns, at the same time watching CNN (they even showed the mod and compared firing it with machine gun virtually could not tell the difference) which had the story about the modifications, there had been a number of stories on msm about that so I Googled it to see.

Further to your question according to LE the mods introduce a high degree of jamming so they said he must have had extensive practice etc in using them.

The 1934 National Firearms Act regulates machine guns, defining them as “any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger.” Pull the trigger once and more than one shot is fired, it’s a machine gun. Pull the trigger multiple times very quickly, it’s not — and it’s not subject to the same restrictions. Therefore it is legal

Not only that Runner, his wife has had a condition put on her Firearms Licence that she cannot store her firearms at any place where her husband lives or has access to.

He has effectively been declared a criminal without charge or trial.

As Xavier Herbert said "Poor feller my country"!!

o sung wu,

Think of it in terms of letting an M60, set on Repetition, bounce on your finger during test firing into a pit.
Fires simulated bursts.

Hi there A.J.PHILLIPS...

You're quite correct when you define a semi-automatic weapon, as opposed to a fully automatic weapon.

A semi-automatic fires one round, on each application of the trigger.

Whereas a fully automatic weapon, will discharge up to and including a fully charged (loaded) magazine, by just one application of the trigger.

You asked what is the difference between a rapid fire weapon and a fully automatic, and does the latter fire even faster? Generally speaking a fully auto. weapon will have a 'regular' rate of fire, called the 'cyclic rate' of fire. The weapon that I'm most familiar with is; the M60 GPMG firing the 7.62 Nato. It has a 'cyclic rate' of fire of about 600 rounds per minute (RPM). All of which sounds impressive, but the gunner must ensure he doesn't over heat the barrel (a 'cook off') which necessitates a change of barrel. The last thing one wants when engaged in a full 'contact' with enemy forces.

The term 'rapid fire' is more of a colloquial term, rather then anything that might appear in some military nomenclature reference.

Our very own Aussie 'Owen Mk1' in 9mm SMG proved itself most effective in jungle operations, in WWll, with a cyclic rate of fire of; 700 RPM. And the odd little American submachine gun, the favourite among the gangsters, was the 'Ingram' mod.10, firing a .45ACP ctg. with a cyclic rate of fire of an amazing 1150 RPM! 'Systemic jamming', should've been it's middle name.

I wouldn't know factually A.J.P; but I suspect given the 'range'; the number of 'casualties'; arising from the Las Vegas massacre, sub-machine guns were NOT EMPLOYED at that time. I hope this helps with your understanding, between, 'semi-auto as opposed to full auto.' a little better for you.

*Please Note...*
I've not viewed ANY News clippings; watched any TV footage; nor read any newspaper account(s) of the recent events in LV Nevada. I've seen enough carnage when I was in the military and the police, to last me forever! Should you consider me a coward, so be it, you're probably right.

According to Fox News and CNN - since 1982 mass shootings
in the United States have been committed by white men -
often labelled "lone wolves" or "psychologically impaired".

As one commentator pointed out - mass shootings in the US
are a violent epidemic that has been met with passivity for
far too long. We're told that if mass shootings were
perpetrated by brown bodies, this would quickly be reframed
and reformed as an immigration issue. If thousands died at
the hands of black men it would be used to excuse police
brutality, minimise the "Black Lives Matter" movement and
exacerbate the "raging black man" stereotype. If mass shooters
identified as Muslim it would quickly become terrorism and
catalyze defense and security expenditures.

But we're told this is a white man's problem and an over
affinity for guns among white men, dangerous against any other
backdrop, gets defended as patriotism or even as white pride.

In a 2014 poll conducted by Fox News, seven out of ten
Republicans believed that gun ownership was patriotic. This
culture dressed up as Uncle Sam has embedded itself into the
American psyche and any other path, lets say foreign born
terror that led to the destruction of life on this level would
be attacked as violently opposed to American values.

But because this culture is embraced by the race and party
that controls the government it continues to be celebrated in the
spirit of love of country.

And that is very difficult to change.

' We're told that if mass shootings were
perpetrated by brown bodies, this would quickly be reframed
and reformed as an immigration issue. '

considering the vast majority (over 80%) of blacks are murdered by blacks your narrative again holds no substance Foxy. Just can't help yourself.

Hi there IS MISE & PHILIP S...

Thank you both for appraising me of this particular instance of ballistic interference. I'm now realising just how old and forgetful I've become. Nor can I bring myself to view ANY of the photo's, the news clippings, and anything else connected with this human slaughter. I've (like you too, IS MISE) seen enough death, blood, together with human carnage and utter butchery, to last me well beyond this life - As such, I simply can't handle it any more. Thank you both for your help in this tragic matter.

Philip S,

"The devices replace the gun's shoulder rest with a "support step" that covers the trigger opening, using the recoil from the gun's firing to bump the user's finger to "bump" the trigger, allowing it to fire at a faster rate. The modification can be bought online for $160.

The Stupidity of this is even though legal to own they are illegal to use"

This type of stupidity is not confined to the US, there are plenty of homegrown examples.
Simpl example, one can own an exhaust cut-out but it is illegal to use it.

Foxy, if mass shootings are a "white man's problem" of recent decades, then what happened to white men in the past 2-3 generations?

I think we all know the answer, and it ain't "guns".

Is Mise,

You still here? Why haven't you just gone and pulled your head in for a while. You have no respect for those who have fallen due to a gun culture you want to import into this country.

You supported the dropping of the cooling off periods for successive weapons which now means in some states in Australia a person like the Las Vegas shooter could accumulate the number of weapons he did without raising a red flag. You sir are a die hard enabler of shooting deaths, you are complicit at putting Australian's at future risk of being killed by a firearm and yet you have little to no remorse.

Shame.

Issy, like so many of the gun happy brigade your callous disregard for the human suffering caused by this tragic attack in the US is appalling. Instead of admitting the hideous nature of this, and other gun crime, both overseas and within Australia you always attempt to muddy the waters by launching into some kind of technical clap trap about the nature of the deadly weapons used.
Frankly, the honest caring folk of Australia and elsewhere don't give a damn about those technical aspects you like to hide behind, but rather want to see government enact tough regulation on guns, and gun owners like yourself, to prevent the possibility of future outrages with firearms of all descriptions.
ITS BAN THE GUN TIME!

Dear Shocker,

You stated and "it ain't guns".

Americans seriously need to discuss the mass psychology of
needing so many guns in the first place and the symptoms
created by being surrounded by them. They have to recognise
that gun crimes, mental illness, social networks and gun
access are complexly interrelated and not reducible to
simple cause and effect.
Ultimately the ways in which their society frames these
connections reveals as much about their particular cultural
politics, biases, and blind spots as it does about the acts
of lone and obviously troubled individuals.

Steele,

You're full of bull.

Paul,

Let's ban all guns, let's eradicate them from Australia, let's take all the civilian, police and other Government-owned arms and melt them all down.
Then we can have peace.

Think of it, a country without guns, I'm all for it.

Do you see any problems?

Hi O Sung Wu,
"I've not viewed ANY News clippings; watched any TV footage; nor read any newspaper account(s) of the recent events in LV Nevada. I've seen enough carnage when I was in the military and the police, to last me forever! Should you consider me a coward, so be it, you're probably right."

I saw some of the footage today, its was pretty horriffic and quite confronting.
I had to stop the video, I didn't want to see any more.
Young women dressed for the night out laying dead in pools of blood,
Young men with exit wounds out the sides of their skulls.
People just stewn around dead everywhere.

Its one thing to talk about it all but something else to view it.

They must've all heard the gunfire but it's as if they were stunned and didn't know what to do at first.
And then they realised something bad was happening and they all ducked and tried to take cover; but they were all just fish in a barrel.
And it wasn't until there were dead people laying around everywhere that they all decided to make a run for it...

I don't blame you for not wanting to view footage of it, it's pretty disturbing.
Don't watch it, but for anyone who does want to see how bad it really was
http://sotomayortv.com/bloodyscenelv/

hey ttbn,
I watched this documentary the other day called 'The Enemy Within' regarding liberal democracy / communist subversion of NZ.
Well I started watching it, havent got around to watching all of it yet, but it seemed interesting.
http://youtu.be/uc2AUDljlhk

I don't know if you've seen the links I've added lately regards Communism / Kurds / ANTIFA / Civil Unrest Planned November 4 (100yr Anniversary Bolshevik Revolution)
But it's all kind of concerning I guess.

And the left wing people go crazy over the guns, and its kind of understandable when stuff like this happens;
They carry on with their 'Anti-Fascist' ranting, but they're the real fascists - 'Neo-Liberal Fascists' running around with their red and black flags 'Blood and Soil' trying to start a communist revolution and dispense with democracy (They don't accept the results of the US election) and cause civil unrest, property damage and violence upon others;

- And they think I'm dumb enough to buy into it, like I don't know communism killed 100 million people already.
- Stories like what the NKVD and Mao did, and comparatively speaking what happened in Las Vegas would've been considered a good day by the victims of that.

So I heard it was 72 minutes from the time first shots were reported till the gunman was killed, and I thought I wonder how far away the police are.
This is almost embarrassing and it hard to explain or makes sense of it.
http://goo.gl/maps/D35Z3JQLC7F2

Zoom in and you'll see at least 50 police vehicles parked no less than 2 mins from the scene of the shooting...

Hi Foxy, a great piece of insight on your part. Worth repeating;

"Americans seriously need to discuss the mass psychology of
needing so many guns in the first place and the symptoms
created by being surrounded by them. They have to recognise
that gun crimes, mental illness, social networks and gun
access are complexly interrelated and not reducible to
simple cause and effect.
Ultimately the ways in which their society frames these
connections reveals as much about their particular cultural
politics, biases, and blind spots as it does about the acts
of lone and obviously troubled individuals."

There is a strong anti-gun element in the US, they are not all gun toting rednecks, hanging out at Issy's 'Bullets and Burgers'. But despite much protest, and the support of some leading politicians, the collective political will is not there to act. Plus the fact the gun lobby itself is so powerful with massive political clout.
With each new and growing atrocity, the expectation is; surely now America will act! it just don't happen, the early reaction from Trump, despite his platitudes and much ringing of hands, was to retreat from any suggestion that action on gun control be taken.

Totally agree with you Issy; "Think of it, a country without guns, I'm all for it"

Ah! but you are itching to hit me with the "who draws first routine". We gotta have de guns, because they gotta de guns! Right? That is not my concern, others can argue that point. But I say, lets just do it!

//Let's ban all guns, let's eradicate them from Australia, let's take all the civilian, police and other Government-owned arms and melt them all down.//

Or how about if we just make them extremely difficult for civilians to obtain guns, with all sorts of checks and balances to minimise the risks of them falling into the wrong hands. And then not repeal or wind back any of those laws to placate the whining of the minute pro-gun lobby, but rather strengthen them where necessary.

In your second paragraph Toni LAVIS you suggested the authorities should perhaps mandate even further restrictions and obligations on applicants for a F/A licence. A very good idea no doubt. However, many of the really nasty weapons that are starting to appear on our streets, are both prohibited imports pursuant to the Customs Act, and not able to be licensed anyway. Being made available, exclusively, to military and law enforcement only. It might be worth noting also, the outlaw Bikie gangs are responsible for most of the illicit importation of these weapons anyway. Interestingly many of these 1%'s are engaged in all manner of criminality much of it involving unlawful importation.

Most serious F/A crime that occurs in Australia is committed by criminals anyway, and many of the weapons used are accessed from illicit sources, so the poor old legitimate shooter virtually has to pay the price by having even further restrictions imposed upon him.

My incisive knowledge of this, came about when I was briefly seconded (as a delegate) to; PSCC 'Protective Security Co-Ordination Centre'; which is/was a federal government initiative, introduced about forty years ago.

As far as our American cousins are concerned, in many things they're a very smart lot of people; but when it comes to the personal possession of F/A's; well what can you say?

The Mandalay Bay Hotel and Convention Centre is the perfect example of the hollowness of 'gun control' rhetoric. The Hotel and Centre is a declared 'gun and weapon free zone' and has a substantial security force.

Automatics? Banned in the US for thirty years. It was the slack Obama and other politicians who talk the political spin of 'gun control', but did nothing despite the ease of doing so, to ban a device that defeated the law against automatics.

That is why laws must be based on evidence, with the risks professionally identified and treated with practical, effective and robust controls. 'Gun Control' is NOT effective regulation and nor can it take the place of it. 'Gun control' is the creature of sly billionaires and their political friends, who have a vested interest in disrupting and blocking any discussion and independent research into the social and other problems, such as the contribution of media sensationalism, that could be the underlying contributors to the prolific African American gun violence and to the commission of mass murder and terrorism.

Of course there are political interests and lobbyists who have been trying to frame the current awful mass murder as simply and solely a 'gun control' problem.

Without wanting to contribute to the uninformed whose 'gun control' spin and the interests it protects absolutely have to get in first to limit and censor debate, what if there is a link between sociopaths (psychopaths) or the growing narcissism in society and high risk activities such as alcohol abuse and gambling?

Add to that the unlikelihood of the spin that the mass killer, who had explosives as well and attempted arson through failed attempts to ignite massive jet fuel tanks nearby, was so incredibly lucky (his 'skill' the 'meeja' would have a doubting public believe), that he received special 'high roller' celebrity status and treatment.

Without doubt this massive assault against humanity could be the bellwether of growing problems in society that to date have not been surfaced for study and for review of economic and social policies that are going hellishly wrong.

On the subject of illegal weapons, knife crime in England is escalating an there were 454 acid attacks in London last year.
http://edition.cnn.com/2017/09/29/europe/london-acid-attacks/index.html

//On the subject of illegal weapons, knife crime in England is escalating an there were 454 acid attacks in London last year.//

And assaults with red herrings are going through the roof.

"And assaults with red herrings are going through the roof.'

and on the nose.

Steele,

".... the dropping of the cooling off periods for successive weapons which now means in some states in Australia a person like the Las Vegas shooter could accumulate the number of weapons he did without raising a red flag. "

Please explain how this could happen, do you think that the police are as stupid as you appear to think that they are?
The waiving of the 28 days wait for second and subsequent firearms does not mean that the police do not vet the applicant, merely that they do it quicker, average waiting time is now 10 to 14 days

There's a whole lot more to this story not yet being told.

Sorry forgot to add the link
http://youtu.be/dALJn6z8Eac

Paul,

"Totally agree with you Issy; "Think of it, a country without guns, I'm all for it"

Ah! but you are itching to hit me with the "who draws first routine". We gotta have de guns, because they gotta de guns! Right? That is not my concern, others can argue that point. But I say, lets just do it!"

I was going to ask you how we would disarm the criminals.

Issy, the Federal Governments nation gun amnesty which you claimed was unnecessary, and would be a complete failure, has been a huge success. To date some 51,000 illegal guns have been handed in. In Queensland alone 16,000 deadly weapons have been removed from the streets.

From ABC news;

Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull said it was vitally important Australia maintained its strict gun controls, to avoid tragedies like the Las Vegas massacre in which 59 people, including the gunman, died.

"The killer had a collection of semi-automatic weapons which a person in [the gunman's] position would simply not be able to acquire in Australia," Mr Turnbull told media in Canberra.

"We have strict gun control laws but we don't take anything for granted."

He said the latest amnesty had "succeeded in keeping Australians safe".

"We are also seeking to increase penalties for gun traffickers including with mandatory minimum sentences," Mr Turnbull said.

Dear Paul,

Well argued, however I think that what Is Mise
wanted to hear was that "the only way to stop
a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun."

But we'll see.

Paul,

"To date some 51,000 illegal guns have been handed in. In Queensland alone 16,000 deadly weapons have been removed from the streets. "

Including a high proportion of rusty old air guns.

The Government claims that there are 250,000 illegal firearms in the country, other sources claim 600,000; given these figures 51,000 (inclusive of rusty old air guns) is hardly a resounding success.

It will be interesting when the Government releases the number of different types of firearms that the amnesty turned up, (some hope!!).

It is misleading to say that 51,000 guns have been handed in as many of the guns that came to light were registered to their owners who took up that option.

""We are also seeking to increase penalties for gun traffickers including with mandatory minimum sentences," Mr Turnbull said"

I agree but, as in the past, the Greens will undoubtedly oppose tougher sentences on such criminals.

Foxy,

"....the only way to stop
a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun."

So, how does one stop a bad guy with a gun?

//So, how does one stop a bad guy with a gun?//

With a laser. Pew pew!

Nah, just kidding. But tasers are pretty good these days. Also, armored exoskeletons. They're not here yet but it won't be long; certainly a more feasible prospect than hand-held laser weapons.

Issy, you claim to deal in facts. You say <<Including a high proportion of rusty old air guns.>>

The exact number of guns hand in is 51,461. A very simple question; How many of those 51,461 guns are rusty old air guns. You claim its a high proportion, therefore you must know the exact number that are rusty old air guns.
The fact is you don't have a clue, do you? You just speculate, make things up, and hope for the best.

If you are as knowledgeable as you claim on the subject, you should have the answer. My crystal ball tells me, I'm right, and you don't have a clue.

Here is your big chance to make a star of yourself! The number please.

Paul,

We'll know the number when the Government releases the breakdown of the weapons handed in for destruction etc., as distinct from the number newly registered.

I base my guestimate on the number of rusty old airguns shewn in TV footage, however, we won't know for sure until the figures are released (if ever).

Damn psy-ops...
You know without the real facts fast, everyone just predictably moves to react to the one single fact that we know for sure.

- That a whole lot of people were killed.

And the only reaction to it in the seemingly absence of facts / motive is to get angry about guns.

But the guns didn't do it by themselves.
And you're all wound up about the guns so much that no-one is even interested in the facts anymore.

You're all puppets on a string and it's really sad that you're all willing to jump on the narrative bandwagon without checking and questioning things for yourselves.

The only thing you guys know, is whatever the tv told you, and you believed it without question.
How many went and looked and questioned for themselves?

I just gave you all a heap of intel before, but none of you are interested, you all go back to your own predictable blinkers-on view of the world relying and arguing MSM narrative: facts that have already been disproven, and you idiots will just keep repeating it like the news does.

It's really sad, because this here is an example of how they manipulate us all.

Not just you, but me too.
I end up paying the price for you guys ignorance.
Remember that.

Thanks everyone for all being asleep at the wheel, as usual.

Stop whining about the guns like predictable children and focus on the facts of the case.

As usual, everyone has missed the point. The problem is not the guns. Has anybody stopped and given a thought about the guy who did it. I can empathise with these guys. I always say, 'how pissed off with the system must this guy have been'? We will never know the truth because the govt and their friends don't want the truth out there because they are the real targets. I've always said, why don't these guys take down the true cause or root of their problems? Well the security around these people is the main reason. It does piss me off that the shooters resort to killing 'innocent' people who have done them no wrong instead of the ones who have. I would much rather have the bad guys exposed and eliminated, before I would even look at guns. It shows how people lack imagination. It's pathetic in fact. If I was in this guys place why would I broadcast my assault? There are so many ways today. Can you imagine the damage you could do with, say, drones? A few drones would have made a bigger mess than this guy did, and he would not have had to kill himself after. Just walk away. So people, show a little smarts and think outside the 'pleb' box. Drop the anti gun crap. You may find that one day (sooner than you think) it will be a blessing to simply reach out and instantly have the security of a gun.
I was once told of a theory as to part of the reason why the advancing enemy in WWII, did not push down into Australia, because their intel told them that all Australians had guns.

Just a few notes...

1. Investigated for ties to Radicalism
2. Had a Secret Life
3. Not acting alone
4. Likely Multiple Shooters
5. ISIS taken responsibility
6. The Target is the Motive - Attack on White Americans representing Americana / Trump supporters
7. Weapons Runner ?
8. Money Laundering ? (Casino)
9. Brother alludes to MK Ultra / Then Changes Story
10. Mandalay ties to Soros
11. Entered Casino with 13bags of guns and ammunition unnoticed
12. 72 minutes to intervene in a Casino ?
13. Police lied about when Shooter checked in.
14. Met with an unknown female
15. Room service for 2
16. Shooting at Bellagio
17. Fusion Centre closeby
18. Photographed in Middle East
19. Owed 2 Airplaines
20. Shooting required planning and preparation
21. Ties to ANTIFA ?
22. Police Station a half mile away
23. Hotel ties to Muslim Brotherhood
24. Police scanner contradicts official narrative
25. No less than 12 Bumpstop modifications
26. Millionaire wanted to be on run or end life suicide by police?
27. Was using a casino 'rewards card' on night of attack
28. Inspired by ISIS ?
29. No Hotel footage released
30. Note left at scene

Issy. so from a half second pan of a few guns on the TV, you are able to deduce a high proportion were rusty old air gun. You never said it was a "guestimate", please drop that from the vocab, and give me the exact number please.

From a half second pan on the telly of a few deadly weapons handed in, a relatively small number of the total (51461). I am able to definitively say with absolute certainty the number of rusty old air guns in the mega pile of 51461 is three, yep three.

Issy, would you agree, in light of what has happened, it would be a good idea if the Australian chapter of the NRA handed back the free taxpayer money they took to build those concrete pill boxes down at your local gunnie HQ, you boasted about previously. Instead that money could be put into child education on the dangers of guns in the community

Paul,

We'll know for certain just what the proportions of old airguns
were handed in,(rusty or otherwise), along with the proportion of other rusty old guns, guns that didn't need to be handed in or registered etc.
The numbers that were subsequently registered.
We have been told that a number of semi-automatic rifles were handed in so there must be some breakdown of the figures and when the Government publishes them we'll know for sure.

On a general note, the conspiracy theorists are having a field day.

Dear Is Mise,

Here's an interesting link:

http://harvardpolitics.com/united-states/good-guy-gun-myth/

http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/indonesia

"The estimated total number of guns (both licit and illicit) held by *civilians* in Indonesia is 1,000,000"

"The defence forces of Indonesia are reported to have 900,000 firearms"

"Police in Indonesia are reported to have 290,000 firearms"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Indonesia

"Indonesia has the largest Muslim population in the world, with approximately 225 million Muslims."

Yes, let's disarm the Australian population and kiss your kids goodbye.

For many of those who contend the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun, is a good guy with a gun. I'm not sure I'd agree. I'd 'remove the gun' from 'the bad guy' using conventional law enforcement officers to do so. By increasing gun crime penalties exponentially, which would at least slow a few down. I will admit the same process hasn't had much success, because the 'head' sentence has been 'life without the possibility of parole', so what would be the point?

The only other avenue might be; crimes involving death, caused by a gun - automatically a Death Sentence, otherwise, Life. Might work?

Foxy,

Which proves what?

The good robot with a bomb took him out?

I'd like to see some action taken against the cynical, unethical and irresponsible politicians, commentators and journalists who put the public at risk by deliberately creating speculative gossip and sensationalising the incident, thereby contributing to contagion (copy cats), among other problems. No principles, no conscience at all, just grubby self-promotion.

Ethics, see here,
http://www.reportingonmassshootings.org/

Oz media would have to be among the world's worst offenders. But interestingly there are other events where they are so 'discreet' as to 'overlook' salient details and maybe forget to report at all.

I really do not understand the fuss being made by non-Americans. The U.S experiences regular mass shootings. By the time this one dies down, another one will have occurred; it's what they do. Nothing OLO posters say or think will make an iota of difference. Americans have the constitutional right to bear arms,and that's that. They lived and died by the gun in the Old West. They are obviously determined to keep on doing it. The nutter in this particular event had the usual checks, and nothing untoward about the man showed up.

Get over it folks, we have more important and dangerous things to think about in Australia, which will do us much more permanent damage than guns.

Hi o sung wu, long time no talk. There are lots of issues we most likely don't agree on, you being an ex copper and conserve, in many respects not similar to myself, and most unlikely to vote for the Greens. I have to say on this gun control issue however, you seem to be most intuitive. I think we both can agree at the end of the day the best people to have guns on our side, and the best people to enforce gun control measures are the boys and girls of law enforcement. The politicians must give them the tools (laws), and the necessary support to carry out that function effectively.
We can all sleep a bit more soundly if we know the state is out to protect us from the criminal class. People like Issy are not the problem, they never will be, what's not known is who are the potential problems and how to disarm them in the first place, Unfortunately many good folk, like Issy, have to pay a penalty, for us not knowing, then the rest of us can feel safe.

Going to an 'Island Jamb' tonight, maybe I'll see the boys in blue late on. Nah, they are surprisingly well run affairs, no trouble at all. Plenty to eat and drink, music, (Cook)Island dancing etc. Its a fund raiser, so a "koha" at the door will be necessary, $50 to $100 generally covers it. "T" tells me there will be a few coming.

Late news, "T" tells me there is "fire walking" on the program tonight, late about 11 o'clock, seen it before but not in Australia, but its interesting, Don't know if "fire walking" is legal in Oz. Is it o sung wu? I'll stick to the "limbo" and "hula" contests.

Paul1405,

You just be watching out for those nice police doggies that your 'Boy' Sh**bridge, the one swings from Lee Rhiannon's skirts and the NSW 'Watermelon' Greens are so worried about.

Wherever authoritarian Greens and Labor prevail in government the organised drug gangs and their imported guns and their drive-by shootings and home invasions are there,

"Man suffers gunshot wounds to legs in Canberra bikie shooting, police say"
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-09-14/man-injured-in-canberra-bikie-shooting,-police-say/8944962

"Tweed bikie shooting: Man arrested over Tweed Heads slaying of Ace Hall"
http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/crime-and-justice/tweed-bikie-shooting-seizures-in-bikie-case-amid-payback-fears/news-story/805c6eebe04c82778c4231bd05fb0791

Paul,

Firewalking, whilst interesting, is a con.

Just ask the practitioners to walk on a heated piece of sheet iron that is 300 degrees or so cooler than the fire; none of them will be fool enough to give it a go.

Hey there PAUL1405...

My name's 'Billy' not 'Silly'; if you think you can talk me into going 'fire-walking' with you, you gotta be joking! At my age, walking is a mere memory I'm afraid. Still if I were to be lowered onto an area of hot coals, I'd do more than walk; be more like dancing I should think? Anyway please enjoy yourselves.

And on the awful LV gun issue, our thinking is along very similar lines. Allow legitimate shooters, who render themselves available to appropriate checks, to possess and use 'a' F/A of a type they've applied for. And under the conditions they've sought. Severe limitations should be mandated, on the number of F/A's licensed to each individual. With a special category made for all semi-automatics, both 'Longs & Shorts'. With a maximum of one F/A only, to be licensed, for each discipline sought by the applicant. As an example; 1 x Rimfire, 1 x Centre-Fire, 1 x Shotgun, and 1 x Big Game (Express) Rifle. Similar with all pistols.

Will it stop these dreadful massacres? No it won't, but it might just calm things down a little, whenever a potential killer sees the number of hoops, he still has to encounter?

Thanks Paul and enjoy yourself with the 'fire-walking' tonight. Oh, your question, is it legal? From memory I really don't know, sorry about that. As long as a 'sober' adult is doing the 'fire walk' and it's not done during a complete Bushfire Ban, I can't really see the harm myself? As long as the 'walker' has all his faculties in place and is aware of the risks? I just can't say accurately, I'm sorry Paul.

//Firewalking, whilst interesting, is a con.//

I wouldn't say it's necessarily a con - it just depends on how it's being sold. Firewalking is not made possible through mind-over-matter, divine intervention, or any other supernatural mumbo-jumbo. It works because of physics, and it's quite safe as long as you don't linger on the coals.

But if Mr Stihl and I were to supply a load of Iron Bark, Box, or another Australian dense hardwood species, that would test the faith and 'empowerment' of fire walking. Even if the inner urban Hipsters hovered above, their mens harem pants and sandals would be a-smokin'.

It would be, 'Woo, woo' and 'Nee nor nee norrrr'. L'il hazelnuts of fire!

As a reflection on the days past, some here may remember when BS artist leadership and personal empowerment consultants charged public organisations heaps to run workshops with stuff like that as the culmination of the event and 'proof' of course benefit. What about the flying fox ropes between gum trees and so on?

Years ago there was an 'empowerment' artist giving a demo at Darling Harbour, one of the interested spectators was an apprentice from Cockatoo Island Dockyard; he had armed himself with a handful of broken up steel swarf, he threw the swarf in the fire trail when no one was looking.
The agonized shrieks of the 'fire walker' when his feet hit the hot steel could have been heard on the Harbour Bridge even with a train rumbling over it.

Thanks all, we had a good night, massive amount to eat, these days I'm not usually a big drinker so only one beer and soft drink. The fire walking lads, four of them, over from Fiji, I think, part of an entertainment group who work in the resorts there.
Yes Issy, I know fire walking (more like running) is a con. It works by having a layer of "cold" ash as a insulator on top of the hot coals, dress it up with fire around so it looks quite spectacular. Not as spectacular as the girls and boys, with the about 20 piece drum band doing the hula, always my favourite. Even my partner "T" got up and done a couple of songs in Maori, she's a very good singer. A big fund raiser with things for sale, tee shirts, CD's gift stuff. And just for Leoj, two Island bikers brought their big bikes and leathers, and for $10 could have a dress up photo done, print it on the spot, and for extra $45 the tee shirt guy will put it on a shirt for you and post it out, "T" ordered one. Awesome idea for fund raising.