The Editorial in yesterday's Sun-Herald was headed,

"Giving ten-year-olds access to guns is a disaster waiting to happen"

I found the Editorial most interesting (but not from the Editor's viewpoint)!

The opening sentence in the Editorial is:
"The sight of 13-year-old Sean Donato peering down the barrel of a loaded rifle is a confronting one."

It would indeed be confronting, no matter who was doing it!!

The Editor, in his ignorance, was, one presumes, talking about Sean aiming his rifle not looking down the barrel, the which is done from the front (muzzle) end/

Seems that Fairfax in their recent purge of journos and Editorial staff missed one that has a poor command of English.

I received my first .22 at 10 years old. I was deemed "responsible enough" to have my own rifle. I had an apprenticeship with a "Daisy" from when I was about eight. Dad would not have given me that rifle if he had any thoughts of me being irresponsible with it. I never was.

I had one kid come out with me a couple of times but then I wouldn't take him out again. I ran into him a few years ago & I still wouldn't take him & that's 40 odd years later.

However, most kids I see now-a-days should not be given a knife & fork until they reach their 20's. (some of them) I would not like to be wandering around the bush with some kid with a loaded rifle & an iPhone.

Of course you can't wander around the bush anymore because of the built-up areas. Responsible kids could be taken to a properly conducted Range & taught Safety & handling of a firearm before they would be allowed onto the Mound. I have no problem with that. Caveat. They would have to be deemed responsible enough for that exercise beforehand. A lot would fail now-a-days.

I take it that we are talking about "City" kids.

None of them have 'access' to a firearm. The permits are for use under the supervision of a duly licensed and authorised person who is present at all times.

It is highly competitive and is a very good interest, recreation and discipline for youth, encouraging them to take good care of body and mind,

http://corporate.olympics.com.au/sports/shooting

Cheap to get into, a weekend activity, friendly and you don't have to be gifted with a 'Ninja' body and buckets of testosterone. Young people, women, do well, as shown by their international accomplishments.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDugAx2Zk8E

I've no problem giving a youngster of ten years of age a firearm permit, provided he/she's trained properly, by a licensed adult shooter in all the necessary safety aspects with that F/A, and he shoots at all times, under the supervision of a licensed adult.

My first 'gun' as it were, was a 'Crack a Jack' brand air-rifle; I got about 1948. Whereas to load the thing, you'd invert the weapon, pushed the muzzle carefully down, thus engaging the main spring. To load, you'd simply drop a .177 pellet down the cocked muzzle, manually pulled the muzzle portion of the barrel back up to it's full extent, and the weapon was in readiness to fire.

Ballistically, it had a muzzle velocity of about 2500ft per 'hour', and would utterly terrify all animate objects - nevertheless it taught me about F/A safety. A mate of mine at school, had exactly the same gun, both of of us purchased it, from the same pushbike shop, for 30/- new.

Only he cleverly put a .177 pellet right into his thumb fooling around with it during the loading process, which caused him some pain and bleeding, but worse still, his Dad confiscated his beloved 'Crack A Jack' leaving him in tears. We were both aged eight years, at the time, too young you might say to be unsupervised with a gun; clearly in my mates case, however moi, who knows?

As dangerous in young hands as a pedal cycle? No :)
Not to mention the array of chemicals and implements around the modern home and garage.

There used to be the mid-week and weekend air rifle competitions in the clubs. In one I used to go to they stood with backs to the bar and shot targets on a wall opposite. You'd wait for the shots and to walk through to the cafe/restaurant behind. Not like darts, the competitors were as sober as. Demanding comps and very tight groups of shots. Hard to do well.

There were air & BB cap pistol events too. Very social and always good cheer.

I wonder how many of the friendly competitions are still going?
They would need a Certified First Aider and a Wa Wa Wambulance on call for the media-induced hysteria today. To treat the always offended, fainting, set.

OSW: My first 'gun' as it were, was a 'Crack a Jack' brand air-rifle; I got about 1948.

I remember the Cracker-Jacks. Didn't they have a push Rod to push the Pellet to the bottom. Mine was a second hand "Diana 16."

I still had it up until I left the North Yard Railways Workshop in Townsville in 1995. The wife's first husband blew himself away so she wouldn't let me have a gun in the house. Then there was the new laws, it was safer to have it at work. No Questions. I'd used it to knock the Pigeons nesting on the Roof.

Hi there JAYB...

Now you're pushing it...? Thinking hard about the push-rod to which your refer? Do you recall the 'Gecardo' brand A/R? I 'think' that Diana of yours was a German mfg'd A/R, in that it had a rifled barrel. And Gecardo was either made by Diana or Diana by Gecardo? The 'Falk' Brand was also German, of very similar design to both Gecardo and Diana. The Germans produced excellent A/R I reckon.

The 'C A J' was a smooth bore beast. Most certainly not your average MOA Mod 82A, Barrett (Light) anti-material .50cal. But at 'point blank' on the thumbs of silly eight year old school boys, accuracy was superb.

I'm sorry, I don't think we used a 'push rod' or ram rod to seat the pellet? Still I stand to be corrected, it was a long time ago now. Before retiring I spent a few years in Ballistics, Scientific Division. On our first big (federally funded) Buy Backs, the number of A/R's surrounded was amazing, including many of the older German Falks, Gecardo's and Diana's (the British BSA manufactured versions). I could only wish to get my grubby little mitts on a couple of them. Not to shoot, just possess was all? Somehow PM John HOWARD wouldn't necessarily see the funny side of it though. Thanks JAYB for a trip down memory lane.

OSW: Diana's (the British BSA manufactured versions).

That the one I had. It had the BSA Logo on it. I don't remember if the barrel was rifled. The Cracker-a-Jacks had a massive barrel & they were a buggar to load, especially when you took one from your Gob & they were all wet with spit. They did have a ram rod. The Daisy was easy to load in comparison. Why did they call them Daisys?

When we would go the Show & shoot down the "Pipe" for a prize they would kick us out after a few shots, even if they were rigged. We would just compensate after the first shot. I liked those repeaters at the show. You know the ones that the bloke loaded a had full of round pellets & you shot at the ducks. They wouldn't let us stay there too long either.

I remember when I got to Kapooka & the first time on the range. We had to zero. I shot the pegs holding the target on the carrier. I got a big kick up the Clacker for that. Later a few of us were held back to clean up the Range. They let us have a Yippie shoot. We came back to the Barracks grinning like Cheshire Cats.

Jayb,

"It's a Daisy"
http://daisymuseum.com/html/timeline/1880.htm

Falke, quality but short production run. Note the advertisement, times have changed. Dads find time for the internet these days and the TV not so long ago either.

http://cinedux.com/falke-air-rifle.php

Hi there JAYB, gee mate you're testing my memory now? The Daisy A/R was an American product, and the brand mfg'd other outdoor recreational products as well. Probably the most enduring, most famous of the English A/R's is the BSA Meteor, both in .177 and .22 cal. The Germans seem to have the A/R industry pretty well tired up these days?

'Daisy', like the early Crosman, were described as BB guns, and were considered little more than a toy, except for those poor buggers who copped a BB in the eye or throat somewhere. As you'd be aware, the world of the 'boys airguns' have advanced considerably since we were kids. With several Olympic Disciplines using the humble A/R.

Speaking of Kapooka, I did my recruits there during summer months, and did it get hot! That Range, you literally cooked after spending the day thereon. Even down in the Butts, you were surrounded by hot concrete. I wasn't a bad shot as it turned out with the .303. The SLR hadn't entered service when I went through, '59. So I was somehow sequestered into one of the Bn. Rifle teams using the SMLE. We were supposed to shoot against the RAAF. So it was to be known as; RTB Kapooka Vs RAAF Apprentice Sqn. You'd recall the RAAF base was at Forest Hills,the other side of Wagga. They were the days eh! Nothing like the 'BullShip' that exists today.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, here we go again. Now the gun crazies, once more want to arm the children.

How about this one; Young girl learns to use an ozzie.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGCKFzGAfQ0

Here are some random videos of typical gunnies!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fi4uDtpvl88

But there is good news;

More than 6400 firearms have been handed to police in NSW by gun crazies as the federal government's national gun amnesty reaches the half way mark.

I must have been a late starter, I only got my Daisy at 12, & my 22 at 14. That old single shot Winchester taught me to be a god shot. The extractor was shot, so I had to dig the spent cartridge out with my pocket knife. Had to make the first shot count, as there was no chance of a second.

Then as a platoon commander in the high school cadet corps, I was overseeing a platoon of 30 kids on the rifle range at 15.

A slightly different time, we used to issue the WW11 303s to the cadets at the Thursday afternoon cadet parade. They took them home walking, on the school busses or riding their bikes, to bring them to the range on Saturday for a shoot. Then back to the school armoury on Monday.

In my 4 years we never had a single problem with 14 year olds carrying the things through town, or having them at home. Indecently the armoury was a storeroom at the end of a prefab 3 class unit, with an unbarred window.

Amazing how much more mature we were 60 years ago isn't it?

No.

Speaking for yourself I see Paul.

Thanks for that Paul1405. You have just proven why people now-a-days can't have a weapon. I have no sympathy for those people. Idiots everywhere. Urban Culture & violent Video Games reek havoc on todays City kids.

While I haven't seen the Article in the Sun Herald I presume that it was about teaching kids to handle a firearm. I see a big difference between instructing kids in the proper use of firearms & "Arming Kids" which gives the false impression of allowing kids Carte Blanche. False News & scare mongering again by the PC & lefties.

No proper instruction by people who have no qualifications is the reason for what happened in those Videos.

Ban cars,

http://www.sbs.com.au/yourlanguage/hindi/hi/article/2016/03/11/two-indian-students-have-died-horrific-car-crash-western-australia?language=hi

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1_3Y2Jcazs

Paul,

Do the Greens want to ban Minor's Permits and the safety instruction that go with them so that the Greens dire predictions will be fulfilled?

Keep people ignorant of firearms safety and there are sure to be accidents; seems that that is the aim of the Greens.

What is the Greens' take on chainsaw safety courses?

Hasbeen, "Amazing how much more mature we were 60 years ago isn't it?"

Political correctness is a modern scourge. They've got nasty, interfering, mischief-making, busybodies hyperventilating, acting shocked and hysterical at a kid's water pistol and panic-dobbing the kid via Triple O. That is a very dangerous thing to do. It can result in the attendance of police officers expecting a serious threat and easily perceiving one to exist (the brain does that, preparation for fight or flight).

In Qld, an enthusiastic young off-duty army bloke who was doing some extra training while carrying a heavy pack and piece of water pipe for weight was the subject of a number of triple O calls and found himself thrown to the ground, vigorously restrained face down under drawn, cocked police pistols and arrested. He was charged with public nuisance for allegedly causing a public nuisance after 'causing wide-spread panic'.

As in the US, you'd want to know, tourists too, how to react to preserve yourself if the police are attending and call to you. Ordinary public, especially youth, are not used to that and could get themselves into a lot of hurt by not freezing immediately and doing exactly and only what they are told to do and without question or hesitation. How is your hearing under extreme stress?

Yet it is not so long ago that thousands of young school cadets were carrying the 'best assault rifle of WW2', the Lee Enfield .303, home on their bikes and public transport.

The public have to understand that they are being manipulated. There are political forces and some from outside Australia and secretly interfering in our domestic affairs ('gun control' activists refuse to declare basics such as management, membership, political links, sources of funding and so on), who are spreading fear and distrust for their own agenda.

For the NSW 'Eastern Bloc' Greens the agenda is selfish and simple. They are desperately in need of some can to kick for easy headlines now that their days of hitching a ride on the gay bandwagon are coming to a close.

Dear Paul,

I don't think it is a crime to reminisce about having owned gun when we were younger. I had an air rifle at 9, another at 12 and an air pistol at 13. My .22 was a present when I was 12 and a .303 at 15. My brother and I owned a shotgun between us as youngsters as well. Enjoyed them all. That isn't to say there wasn't a few close shaves. I managed to send a .22 round 6 inches past my father's left ear out hunting one day. I tripped and fell backwards and the rifle ended up discharging behind me. On another occasion my 7 year old sister managed to load a rifle and shoot a can out from just beneath my father's hand while he was setting up targets for her. Luckily she was a very handy shot.

Both incidents were the source of family amusement for a long while. It is only after you have your own children that you start to appreciate how devastating it would have been for either of us if my father had been injured or killed.

We do now live in a different place. Violence in movies is the norm and highly realistic first person shooting games has quite probably desensitised many of this generation to the impact of weapon use.

My position has always been to those who want to go back to the old ways of doing things can first ban these violent mediums then come and have the conversation. Otherwise they can stick to the memories.

I don't know how any properly made and maintained rifle could discharge in the way you described. Had some idiot been interfering with the trigger and sear?
How in the world were you carrying it too? As well, you had one up the spout and cocked, which is in direct contravention of the safety rules. All in all a strange and scary story.

As for anyone holding a rife, let alone with one up the spout (again) and cocked and a finger on the trigger, while someone, her father in this case is up front? But she was aiming too? And where were you? There were no rules left to break in that case. Yet NO rule should ever be flexed. It is so simple, an idiot can be safe.

What you had was a father who was clueless and casual. He should never have been in charge of a firearms, chainsaw, axe, motor vehicle, kero, CHILDREN, the list goes on.

SteeleRedux, "Both incidents were the source of family amusement for a long while".
?! Absolutely stupid. What, no-one corrected that thinking until you say you had a family?

SteeleRedux, "Violence in movies is the norm and highly realistic first person shooting games has quite probably desensitised many of this generation to the impact of weapon use."

Normal people are quite able to discriminate between games and real life. Youth know that games are games. Where children can have a problem though is in the family environment you described as your own, where foolish risk-taking is the norm and parents are incompetent and do not lay down proper boundaries.

OLO readers should be aware that it would be most unlikely, damned improbable, NOT ON, that anyone who is so untrained, thoughtless and casual as your father and family would ever get past go for a licence.

You inadvertently made a solid case for minors being trained by someone competent, which would most certainly be the case if they were to attend a club.

I agree SteeleRedux reminiscing about the past is fine. The thing is we tend to look at the "good old days" through "rose colored glasses". I remember my grandmother going on about the "youth of today" and that was in the 1960's.
I am over 60, but unlike some, I realize we can't go back to yesterday, a time which today's generation don't appreciate or understand, through no fault of their own. The past is something to learn from and build on. As a forward looking progressive I believe there is a positive future, but there is a lot of hard work required to achieve that outcome.
We would not be communicating like we are here if it was not for some later persons good work with computers, etc. There are countless examples of achievements that have come through the work of today's generation. Something use older folk need to appreciate.

p/s My early life was on a sheep farm in the Central West of NSW. There were plenty of guns around, and as a kid I used a 22 to take pot shots at rabbits, bottles on fence posts and the odd tin can.

Totally unrelated; RIP Glen Campbell, loved his music. If you have a little time please play this YouTube of Glen, I find the words most rewarding.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvswocNN-g8

The Minor's Firearm Permits promote outside activity for all and regardless of gender. Great for the brain, novelty and concentration, calming and social acceptance. Great for the body, movement, outdoors or in an enclosed range.

Best of all, it is a diversion that strongly discourages illicit drugs and builds confidence and pride. It is NOT the environment and social circle where drugs will be part of the life of contacts. Cheap fun and competition and grading up as one chooses.

Here are the people the kids meet and parents are of course very welcome to watch or take part,

http://tinyurl.com/y92osk93

Dear Paul,

I agree there are many things we have managed to improve on and I think we have empowered many more people today including victims of domestic violence and racism.

I also get the affection for guns in some of the older generation. But times have indeed changed. I can reminisce about carrying my rifle on public transport but would be absolutely appalled if someone tried it today.

Through some pretty forward thinking gun laws we have managed to dramatically reduce the toll firearms were having on our society. Many are now aware that having guns in the house markedly increases the risk to children living there but it has taken large numbers of residences to be without weapons for this statistic to manifest itself.

I often ask those advocating for widespread gun ownership what it would take for them to give it up? If laws were relaxed and the number of children who died from accidental or self inflicted shootings were to jump by a third would they acknowledge they were wrong? Most of the answers I get are just that penalties for those gun owners who permit such a thing would need to be increased. This is just such wrong headed thinking.

As for Glen Cambell By the Time I get to Pheonix was probably my early favourite.

But his guitar playing, damn! After his passing Alice Cooper said he considered him one of the top 5 players out there.

Do you remember the William Tell Overture?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUBhE00h9U0

Or Gentle on my Mind.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETkzK9pXMio

They seem to be dropping like flies.

SR,

People frequently carry firearms on public transport, there is no law against it.

Hi there STEELEREDUX...

Remind me never to get within 100 metres of you. However it's not the gun that cause's the problem, it's the human who's in charge of that gun, that's the real worry?

You're right, 'the gun' has passed from being a legitimate recreational aide for sportsmen. Gun's are for vengeance, retribution, and intimidation; with the exception of military & law enforcement. Enabling the weak to become strong, and the strong to become stronger. And so the coward may conceal himself, behind that gun.

Divest a human of his gun, he'll revert back to his previous facade. A gun is probably the only aide that can utterly alter the disposition and temperament of some individuals. The gun has an almost hypnotic effect, especially upon women. I've witnessed some women when handed an unloaded pistol or revolver, to casually look straight down the barrel, as if they expect to see some great mystery disclosed?

Be in no doubt STEELEREDUX, guns can have an extraordinary effect on some people. As an example, I attended a mixed seminar, mainly of DPP legal people. It involved several sessions of 4x40 minutes each with a lady forensic Psychiatrist.

She spoke mainly on 'crimes against the person'. On the second or third session, she entered the lecture theatre, sat at her desk, and before she even exchanged pleasantries, she removed a large Revolver from her valet, and placed in on her desk. Without paying it any attention whatsoever?

Naturally there was an abundance of 'twitter' among her audiance. Nevertheless, at the conclusion of her session, she promptly picked it up and replaced it back into her valet, before biding us all a good-day?

What was the purpose of this 'theatre'? On her final session, she explained, in words to the effect;

'...Whenever humans are introduced to a mechanism dedicated to lethality, so precise, so absolute. We experience this 'tunnel vision', until we can deduce the true recipient or focus of that lethality...'?

A great illustration coming from a very smart lady, who was so right, when it comes to the presence of a gun.

Dear o sung wu,

Probably a fair assessment my learned friend, I can be a bit of a hex. My old man thought he was pretty safe behind me. Having been a naval officer and a clearance diver he was fairly used to things that might go bang. Somehow being engrossed in the shot and adjusting by stepping back a foot ended up with me falling straight on to my back and hitting damn hard.

Afterward he didn't say a thing, just took my rifle and we walked in silence back to the car. Nothing much was said either on the drive back home where he dropped me off and headed to the pub for something to settle his nerves.

We know highly trained officers can fall victim to accidents;

Who can forget this DEA officer shooting himself in front of a class full of students.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7ufT_6Kgy0

But many are real tragedies.

“The video shows Punta Gorda Police Officer Lee Coel playing the suspect when he fires his gun at Knowlton, before she drops to the ground. After the shooting, it takes a moment for anyone to realize that Knowlton has been shot with real bullets. ”
http://nbc4i.com/2017/04/20/florida-police-release-video-of-officer-shooting-killing-woman-during-civilian-training/

When they returned to the training area, Officer De Kraai asked the other officer to shoot him with a Simunition round so he could experience how it felt. Forgetting that he had transitioned back to his service weapon, the other officer fired a single live round, fatally striking Officer De Kraai in the back.
http://www.odmp.org/officer/20530-officer-dan-d-de-kraai

And it happens here too.

“In 1992 Constable Hernandez was a member of the State Protection Group and a qualified firearms instructor. He was accidentally shot in the chest while testing police in their annual firearms proficiency tests at the Redfern Police Complex. Following emergency surgery Constable Hernandez died at St Vincent’s Hospital, Darlinghurst the same day as the accident. “

No doubt you are aware of others and I would wager our rate of colleague on colleague fatalities would outstrip those of the UK. These are people whose training far exceeds that of the ordinary civilian.

SR,

"Through some pretty forward thinking gun laws we have managed to dramatically reduce the toll firearms were having on our society."

We have not, absolutely not; the rate of firearm crime/misuse etc was in steady decline before Howard's Laws and except for a sharp rise after the introduction of the laws (as a reduction has been claimed for the laws may an increase also be claimed?) has continued to follow the same downward spiral.
Howard's Laws made no appreciable difference.

"These are people whose training far exceeds that of the ordinary civilian"

But not that of all civilians, and on civilian ranges, no one is ever allowed to point a weapon at another person under any circumstances.

Issy, you claimed the Federal government's national gun amnesty would be ineffective, numbers speak for themselves, with more than 6400 firearms handed to police in NSW by gun crazies already, and growing daily.

Will you personally be conducting the 'Ozzie' training for kiddies at your Aussie franchise of 'Bullets and Burgers'? p/s Did you blokes pass the hat around for the family of that bloke in America who got his head blown off by the kid with the gun? It would be the least you could do.

Thanks Steely for the music vids of Glen Campbell, he was more than a country singer, a true legend of modern music, with many, many hit songs.

Dear Is Mise,

You really want to go there mate? Shooting ranges in the country becoming a choice location for people wanting to end their lives because of loosening of gun laws.

“The widow of a man who committed suicide at a Sydney shooting range has called on the New South Wales Government to tighten gun control laws.
Shirin Molnar has told the ABC her husband, Gabby Molnar, was able to take his own life because of a deal between the previous Labor government and the Shooters and Fishers Party six years ago.
Under the deal, the NSW Firearms Act was amended making it legal for people without a gun licence to fire a gun at an approved range.
All customers need to do is sign a P650 form declaring they do not have a criminal history, a mental illness or any medical condition which could prevent them from firing a weapon safely.
Police are not required to do background checks on applicants before they get access to loaded weapons.
…
Mr Molnar's suicide was not an isolated case. Since 2002, eight people have committed suicide in shooting ranges across Australia; two in South Australia, two in Western Australia, two in Queensland and two in New South Wales.
There has also been a siege and a homicide in NSW, both committed with guns stolen from firing ranges.”
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-03-17/widow-calls-for-tighter-gun-laws-after-shooting-range-suicides/6327284

We can make that count at least 10 now.

This one was at the home of the Sporting Shooters association of Australia.
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/newslocal/the-standard/person-found-dead-at-st-marys-shooting-range/news-story/01e58246bc46e87ba0bace0f87006e5b?nk=5fb8903e74da52018378004f72a0035e-1502363429

And

“A 47-year-old man died at the Marksman Indoor Firing Range, on Franklin St, on Tuesday afternoon. Police said there were no suspicious circumstances.
It was the third death at the shooting range in six years, after similar incidents in 2008 and 2009.”
http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/messenger/city/debate-over-moving-marksman-indoor-firing-range-after-third-death/news-story/15e3b8d0a48ac787591e4b1a15688bc6?nk=5fb8903e74da52018378004f72a0035e-1502363497

How many deaths of ordinary suffering Australians will it take before you take some bloody responsibility for your sport? How about supporting a retightening of the laws at ranges?

All decent Australian must be appalled by those suicides and other deaths at shooting ranges in this country. I am appalled, are you appalled Issy? The problems is even greater than what I thought, is it greater than what you thought Issy? The only word for it is appalling, do you have another word for it Issy?

SteeleRedux,

Those small numbers prove the very opposite to what you foolishly imply.

Hanging, rope, is by far the most preferred method of suicide with poisoning following. Quite possibly many single vehicle deaths are also suicide, but finding evidence is difficult.

Firearm suicide is uncommon. Further, it is very rare as you have demonstrated for there to be an incident on a range despite the hundreds of competitors and visitors there a week (or a day on some ranges).

To follow your twisted thinking, the train driver and the government railways department should be blamed for a suicide on the tracks. Of course there are some idealists who do demand that all of the thousands of kilometres of railway lines be fenced 2m high and monitored. Others demand that the rivers and ponded water be fenced, the sea too? Greens would ambulance chase and protest anything.

In a previous post you went on about police injuring one another, or a bystander. Once again it didn't seem to cross your mind that the 'n', the number, was very low. So you proved the opposite of what you say you believe.

You leave all wondering how anyone could be so numerically challenged.

There is no doubt whatsoever that our licensed firearms owners and their ranges have enviable records for safety. Also, that excellent record goes back to the year dot in Australia (and NZ too). That has been discussed already with the example of thousands of cadets over many years and the WW2 assault rifle. Some might be left wondering what other sports/recreation might prove a similar claim for safety? Definitely not cycling for one. However, you would be an expert in your own lunchtime on that too, so you would have an entrenched view if anyone might listen.

From day one the primary purpose of the gun was that of a killing weapon. Unlike the gun, a train, a car, a length of rope were never invented or intended for the purpose of taking life.
It is a total absurdity and a very weak argument to try and justify deaths caused by guns, by pointing to deaths by other means. If a person dies from cancer, is is some how lessened because others have died from heart attacks? Ridiculous.
The pro guns like Is Mise and Leoj, have no logic to justify the violence, so they resort to the illogical. It is the selfishness of the minuscule minority that perpetuates the pro gun argument, as they attempt to argue that gun laws should be relaxed or even abolished.

When I was Skydiving regularly in the 60/70's I remember reading a list of the most dangerous sports. Skydiving was #10 & believe it or not Cricket was #1. Shooting was down around #8. I'll have to Google the latest figures now that BASE Jumping & Winged Suits are in.

My list for owning a firearm:

1. A through Psych Test.
2. Three References of Good Conduct.
3. Belong to a Registered Club.
4. A Register of all Members & the Weapons owned.
5. Sign in & out of the Gun Club.
6. Have undergone a Range & Firearm Safety Course.
7. All weapons to be stored in an Armory at the Range.
8. All weapons to be signed out & into the Armory.
9. All Ammunition to be kept in a separate Storage.
10. The number of Rounds checked out & any unused returned to Storage.

Paul1405, 'guns are made to kill people'

Your pub argument is foolish, even to the drunks you probably try it on. It is technological determinism. Meaning that the technology determines the outcome. Technological determinism is an obsolete, disproved, theory that once something made, it can only be used for the singular purpose that item made and nothing else.

However most people with a skerrick of independent thinking ability would realise that social construction, ie use of technology, is what matters. That the use of an object is determined by society, by the person, the user.

Tell me now, how do far leftists such as yourself imagine the world-wide web? No, don't bother, most might guess what the NSW Greens 'Trots' make of the Web.

You say you are here on OLO to represent the views of the NSW 'Eastern Bloc' Greens, who are cozied up with the imported idealism of 'gun control', that:

- has nothing to do with the effective and efficient regulation of firearms ownership and use and is NOT concerned with deterring and catching criminals either; but,

- is solely directed at total bans and the confiscation of licensed citizens' property by the State and at the point of a gun.

Contrary to its claim that 'gun control' wants to 'strengthen' and 'tighten' firearms law, it is aimed at over-ruling, overturning and replacing the present democratic law, to ban instead. At the behest of foreign interests who have a record of interfering in the domestic affairs of western democracies.

The public really need to wonder about the highly secretive 'gun control' activists and the interests behind them, their fear of disclosure and their implacable refusal to reveal even the very due diligence basic information such as membership, office bearers, sources and use of funds, political links and so on.

That is totalitarianism. It also goes against, trashes, the present firearms laws, and the fundamental individual rights and freedoms that western democracy and the law are based on.

'Gun control' is NOT the regulation of firearms ownership and use. It is anything but that. It is the direct opposite.

Its goal is complete bans, Big Brother State confiscation of lawful property or ordinary law-abiding citizens. The disarming of the responsible, licensed citizens is the invention of billionaire international currency trader George Soros and his hugely wealthy overseas mates.

These foreign 'entrepreneurs' (sic, more modern day bushwackers, raiders, ruthless manipulators and plunderers) resent the separate sovereignty of nations because they find the laws hamper them (as the laws should, against inside trading for example, think France's regulators V George Soros). That is also why Soros promotes 'open borders' and flooding Europe and countries like Australia with economic migrants - to destroy the public consensus, disrupt government and dissolve borders.

The leftists, the International Socialists and lunar Greens want 'Open Borders' too and they would sell Australia down the drain, making Australia submissive to a 'One World Government', run by the International Socialists of course. Ex-Greens leader Bob Brown is on record putting himself up as the first President of the One World Government.

Dear Is Mise,

Bloody hell mate you can be an uncaring bastard.

So what would you say to Shirin Molnar who blames the loosening of gun laws for her husband's death? Or to the families of the three people who took their lives at the same bloody shooting range?

Nothing to see here? No problem at all? No need for tighter regulation? Nothing!

What do you say to the family of Vincent Fernando whose mentally ill daughter was allowed to become a member of a pistol club, loaned a weapon and then managed to walk out of the premises with the pistol and 30 rounds of ammunition to return home and shoot her father multiple times?
http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/gun-death-triggers-battle-to-close-pistol-club-and-limit-access-to-weapons-20110121-19zzw.html

Tough titties? Not my problem? I demand my rights to be a dangerous ideologue intent on weakening reasonable gun laws and to not give a damn who loses their life as a consequence?

Shame!

"A woman who killed her three youngest children by deliberately driving her car into a lake, in what a Supreme Court judge described as a "horrendous crime", has been jailed for 26 years and six months".
http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/lake-killer-mum-akon-guode-jailed-for-20-years-20170530-gwg23z.html

Car control - Ban Cars.

Citing the few instances as 'proof'(sic), while disregarding the many thousands, millions, of ordinary licensed, law-abiding citizens going about their daily business without a problem, is an example of a common cognitive error (availability error).

Paul,

"Issy, you claimed the Federal government's national gun amnesty would be ineffective, numbers speak for themselves, with more than 6400 firearms handed to police in NSW by gun crazies already, and growing daily"

Numbers do speak for themselves and 6,400 is a drop in the bucket compared to the number of illegal firearms said, by Government, to be in the country.

It will be interesting to see a breakdown of the types and condition of the guns handed in.

It is incorrect, deliberately misleading (because they know better) for police commissioners and politicians to claim as they do, that any firearm or part of same passed in is an 'illegal gun' that could have done harm. Most are ages old and were stored safely. Obviously only ever used lawfully and safely too or else the headlines would be blaring the fact, but never do. Doesn't anyone think any more? The public need good operating BS detectors where the 'meeja', pollies and the talking heads on The Box are concerned.

In fact very few surrendered firearms would be illegal and almost all are legal, but unregistered. The paperwork is not done and the taxes paid.

The people turning them in are ordinary honest citizens and many, are likely to be pensioners and people on low or fixed incomes, would be in the very unfair position of not being able to sustain their ownership and recreation/competition and club membership because of costs.

Others find the monstrous, unnecessary paper-shuffling bureaucratese of the licensing approval and registration a little beyond them. Again that is unfair to the many members of the public who do not find government paperwork easy.

But think a bit too, would any offender be turning in his tools of trade? Hell no, offenders are in the business of breaking laws and they laugh at politicians' and police commissioners' photo opportunities where often toys, Airsoft, defunct inoperative bits and pieces (numbers matter!) and so on are represented and reported as 'threats' taken away.

Bollocks! What about chasing the criminals, the OMGs, dealing drugs and shooting one another up over disputed territory! Now that is where illegal guns and illegal use can be found. Of no interest to 'gun control' and the Greens though. Not to Labor either for some reason, eh, Qld Premier Annastacia Palaszczuk? She who along with Greens buried the successful anti-Bikie VLAD laws.

Hi there JAYB...

Firstly, why would one choose to willingly jump out of a perfectly serviceable aircraft, may I ask?

Secondly, your suggestion of an amended criteria for individuals who wish to participate in a shooting sport at a Range is pretty sound I reckon. Perhaps your points illustrated at numbers 7 to 10 may be quite difficult to introduce, both from a fiscal and logistical point of view, it may be too cost prohibitive, from maintaining such a facility, and the labour need thereat, I should think?

Hi there STEELEREDUX...

Increasing the number of shooting ranges won't have a great deal of impact on the suicide rate I suspect. Anyone intent on suicide by a gun will do it anywhere he may choose to do so. I had a job, where a twenty year old, put his Dad's cheap Boito single barrel 12g. in his mouth, while sitting on the toilet seat, in the ensuite toilet and did the deed. Strangely, after we went the Coroner's route, as was the procedure, I then sought permission from the Coroner to dispose of the gun/property. It was given into the care, custody and control of the Commissioner of Police, a normal direction from Coroners.

Anyway, a month or so later, the father of the victim, made contact and wanted to have the gun returned to him, as it was his (rightful) property. I was amazed, I really was. This Boito is a cheaply made, Southern American 'Shotty you could buy new for less than $100, in those days. And yet here we had the Dad of this young suicide victim, wishing to have the very gun his son used to knock himself, returned to him? Personally I'd never wish to see the thing again, even if it was a rare Purdy double drilling or something?

Paul,

Ref. the number of illegal firearms:

"Based on available data, the ACIC conservatively estimates there are 260,000 firearms
(250,000 longarms and 10,000 handguns) in the domestic illicit market. This estimate is
based on a range of intelligence sources, including firearm importation figures and seizure
trends over time."

That's 40+ to 1 currently handed in,

BIG DEAL!!

Hi there IS MISE...

With respect it is a 'big deal' if you're one of the poor bloody coppers who's got to confront one of these illegal F/A's that's been smuggled, into the Country by these evil Bikie gangs. Unlike criminals, police actually have to 'confront' a potential assailent, rather than set up an ambush like many from the underworld engage in!

A question for you if I may? Anybody apprehended for committing a criminal act, if armed with a F/A, would you support an additional sentence being added to the original penalty, to be served cumulatively, to that original sentence. Like some jurisdictions have, in the US?

A simple example - Burglary; offender gets 5 years, eligible to be out in 2 years with all the maximum remissions etc. However, if he's armed, he receives an automatic 10 years (mandatory) on top of the 2 years he must serve, making it a 12 year lagging, minimum! I reckon the public would support such a decisive sentence, for those who choose to menace others while armed.

The gun registry is a white elephant, expensive and useless, trying to create a role for itself. There is no way that offenders are going to be registering their tools of trade and the tools and even if they could, their own lack of a licence stymies that (not that they care).

The 'gangsta guns' valued by drug gangs and other criminals are mainly plastic with few bits that can show on the detection devices. Post and container get them what they want. As a recent incident appeared to show, other much more nasty products come in the same way, or though other means.

'Gun control' doesn't lay a glove on criminals. It aimed exclusively at disarming legally licensed citizens.

Howard's bureaucratic paper-chase, white elephant registry (that doesn't list criminals' toys) and police monitoring ordinary citizens who have already passed stringent tests and paid for licences, don't lay a glove on criminals either. But it sure does take trained police away from collaring those drug gangs who just so happen to have the illegal guns and are using them.

It is a joke, a 'Catch 22', but the frauds of 'gun culture' and 'gun control' worked fine for some cynical politicians I guess. Made John Howard and others look like they actually did something with that cool $1 billion or so taxpayers dollars they wasted.

o sung wu,

I would indeed support a mandatory 10 years cumulative for being armed in the commission of a crime.

In fact, the Shooters, Fishers and Farmers Party have tried to bring this in a few times but they could never get sufficient support in the NSW Upper House, the Greens have always opposed it.

Good to know IS MISE we're on the same page then! So what we've got here is another legislative log-jam, caused wholly by our morally corrupt politicians. And yet we're silly enough to vote them in, time after time after bloody time! God help us. I wonder what might happen if we asked a couple of our political masters how we should confront armed and dangerous criminals, knowing that all they'll probably get if convicted, is a slap on the proverbial wrist?

Is Mise, o sung wu

While I don't disagree with the policies of the Shooters, Fishers and Farmers Party, they seem sensible, practical and decent, I say that it is completely unreasonable and unfair to expect the licensed public to shoulder responsibility, to feel obliged to come up with solutions, for the acts of criminals.

What offenders do is irrelevant to them, except to be concerned and alarmed, to seek help and protection as ordinary citizens, much like any another person. And like any other person they should not be expected to solve what authorities obviously struggle with. Most usually that would be to collar and convict the criminal gangs involved in drugs and standover and to deter any new ones who would step into the vacuum created.

No-one tries to make good drivers, points-free drivers, the ones who are constantly doing the right thing and displaying courtesy as well, responsible for the antisocial and at times criminal behaviour of louts and other selfish, uncaring SOBs. That would be easily spotted as silly and misdirected.

Similarly it is manipulative and grossly unfair, wrong, to try to blame-shift fault for gun crime onto the ordinary law-abiding public who are doing the right thing. Yet that is exactly what Soros' 'gun control' does, while disregarding the real offenders. It is political deception, fraud.

John Howard is disrespected, abhorred, as the 'Lying Rodent' for damn good reasons.

"There was a total of 111 road deaths during the month of June 2017. In comparison to the average for June over the previous five years, the current figure is 14.2 per cent higher"
https://bitre.gov.au/publications/ongoing/road_deaths_australia_monthly_bulletins.aspx

There is no indication as to how many were murders, manslaughters, suicides or just plain old bad driving.

Suicides.

We are often told that the Howard Flaws have resulted in less suicides, however:

"Statistics on Suicide in Australia
Suicide remains the leading cause of death for Australians aged between 15 and 44.

DEATHS BY SUICIDE

The overall suicide rate in 2015 was 12.6 per 100,000 in Australia. This is the highest rate in 10-plus years
The most recent Australian data (ABS, Causes of Death, 2015) reports deaths due to suicide in 2015 at 3,027
This equates to more than eight deaths by suicide in Australia each day
Deaths by suicide in Australia occur among males at a rate three times greater than that for females. However, during the past decade, there has been an increase in suicide deaths by females
The suicide rate amongst Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples is more than double the national rate. In 2015, suicide accounted for 5.2% of all Indigenous deaths compared to 1.8% for non-Indigenous people

SUICIDE ATTEMPTS
For every death by suicide, it is estimated that as many as 30 people attempt to end their lives
That is approximately 65,300 suicide attempts each year"

Lifeline Australia.
https://www.lifeline.org.au/about-lifeline/lifeline-information/statistics-on-suicide-in-australia

Dear Is Mise,

Son you really are a gift that keeps on giving.

Your quote came from this report;

http://www.acic.gov.au/sites/g/files/net1491/f/2016/10/illicit_firearms_in_australia_0.pdf?v=1477016769

It talks about the greatest percentage of guns entering the criminal market coming the Grey Market.

“Most grey-market firearms are unlikely to be held for the purpose of committing violent offences; however, these firearms are unlikely to be reported as stolen if theft occurs by criminals. Motivated criminals are more likely to be interested in using unregistered firearms, as they are unlikely to be traceable by law enforcement agencies. Many members of the community still possess grey-market firearms because they did not surrender these during the 1996–97 gun buyback. Many firearm owners chose at that time to maintain possession (albeit illegally) during the implementation of the National Firearms Agreement. The ACIC has received reports of thefts where both registered and unregistered firearms were stolen; to avoid adverse police attention, the victim reported only the theft of the registered firearms. It was during the recovery of the registered firearms that police discovered the existence of the unregistered and unreported stolen firearms.”

You yourself have intimated that you may not have handed all your weapons in.

And guess what, the report says theft is responsible for 850% more weapons being diverted into the hands of criminals than illegal imports. In fact manufactured weapons were 80% higher a diversionary source than imports as well.

“illegal importation accounts for a comparatively small percentage of illicit firearms in the Australia market. Of all firearms traced by the FTP in 2015–16, only 1 per cent were identified as illegally imported.”

So as more and more Australians get their hands on more weapons the access for criminals keeps expanding, 6000 over the last two years from your so called sport.

Again it is the likes of yourself who are greasing the wheels for this to happen, delivering guns to our criminal class.

We need tighter not looser regulation, and greater penalties for those who harbour Grey Market weapons as well as substantive sanctions for those who fail to keep them from theft.

Steele,

What I could find in the report said,
"The ACIC’s FTP has found that theft is the primary contemporary diversion method.
Theft accounts for the diversion of 8.5 per cent of firearms traced in 2015–16. While it is likely some of these stolen firearms come into the possession of organised crime groups, the total number is unknown."

" You yourself have intimated that you may not have handed all your weapons in"

Just where did I do that?

In fact, I handed in every bit of junk that I could get good Government dollars for and I registered all the rest.
I thought that the Buyback was a gift from heaven, stuff that wouldn't have sold for $100 was suddenly worth $250. etc.

Leoj, you might be able to put the frightners on the other old folks down at your retirement village by banging oh about the need for self protection. Convincing the elderly that they should sleep with a loaded gun under their pillow or some such nonsense. When you are devoid of facts you simply invent something, example; "The people turning them (guns) in are ordinary honest citizens and many, are likely to be pensioners and people on low or fixed incomes." Pure speculation.

I could say, if the gun amnesty had been in place, police officer Brett Forte may not have needlessly lost his life when gunned down in Queensland. The perpetrator may have handed his illegal weapon into authorities.

Even the most rabid gunnies like Issy's Shooters and Hooters Party, and Leoj's One Nation recognize the need for some controls, ever if most of their gun policies are wishy washy nonsense, they do understand there are inherent dangers with guns in private hands, and controls are necessary.

SteelRedux,

The world of 'could' and 'might'.

They admit that they are pulling numbers out of the air. The 'report' can be summed up in three words, 'Um, don't know'.

Add to that, 'However we are public bureaucrats who like to empire build so here is some highly speculative gossip to be going with'.

BTW, are those Middle Eastern bikie gangs mentioned anywhere? LOL

Dear Is mise,

I remember it as something along the lines of 'it is understandable that not all the weapons were handed in because some had great sentimental value'. I do not have the time nor inclination to track it down right now and will admit it may well have been a generic statement from you so I withdraw it.

Grey market 8.5%, illegally imported 1%, 850% difference by my math. What is it with yours?

So mate, what about “greater penalties for those who harbour Grey Market weapons as well as substantive sanctions for those who fail to keep them from theft.”?

Or are you happy seeing our baddies more heavily armed so you can justify loosening our gun laws?

How about thinking of the risk you are putting us all under.

Dear Paul1405,

You might like this gem from Is Mise. His solution to armed holdups at service stations? Not to look at our gun laws because that would infringe on his rights. Rather;

“If the Firearms Acts were fair and just then service station attendants would be allowed to wear 'bullet proof vests' but possession of such a vest is a criminal offence, but the Prime Minister wore one when addressing a meeting of shooters. Double standard? Where is Work Cover when one needs them?”

Steele,

I do remember saying something along those lines but I meant just what I said, and some people would have kept their fathers' or grandfathers' old .22 semi-auto .22s as keepsakes.

What do you find wrong with people in vulnerable employment being allowed to have safety equipment?

Government mandates the wearing of protective footwear, leg-guards,
crotch protectors, safety harness, breathing masks, eye protection, hearing protection and head protecting helmets.

So why ban body armour?

Paul,

"I could say, if the gun amnesty had been in place, police officer Brett Forte may not have needlessly lost his life when gunned down in Queensland. The perpetrator may have handed his illegal weapon into authorities."

You could say that, but I don't think that you are that stupid.

Yes Steele that is one possibility, while Issy and his mob are running around shooting everything in sight, the rest of us could feel safe wearing a four inch thick suit of body armor. Issy you can add that one to the Shooters and Hooters policy under the heading of self protection.

LOL The days of the Greens riding bareback on gays for sensationalist headlines are coming to a close. There is much angst and casting about for new cans to kick, eh guys?

So, what will Monday be bringing? Will 'their' ABC be as kind and cooperative as ever? Will the ABC dust the Greens off with a feather, as understandingly and sympathetically, empathetically, as ever where the Green Left are concerned? Treat it all as an 'organisational matter' and don't dig deeper? Give the Greens elite some free time?

Maybe a little spice by talking about the competition between Greens and Labor the lunar fringe demographic, the easily led and forever offended, 'Useful Idiots'.

Done before and very safe.

The ABC's très 'Progressive' attack dogs are for others.

Steele,

"Grey market 8.5%, illegally imported 1%, 850% difference by my math. What is it with yours?"

Anything you like, as it's all based on supposition.

The guess at the number of illegal guns runs from 250,000 to 600,000 depending on the degree of sensationalism required.

I say it was 463,198,262 illicit. That is as correct as any other guess. Surprised they admitted any imports at all. But then they turn around and say all are imports.

'Grey', what a sly way to try to pin the tail on the donkey, to blame-shift, to make ordinary citizens, the victims of crime, somehow responsible for the offences of criminals.

The grubby, unethical uses of social psychology revealed in that spin. Or is it that propagandists were always like that, outright lies and half truths? The Marxists and their manipulative language.

Then along come a Jackass who boasted of his and his family's past unlicensed stupidity with firearms to assert that victims of theft, victims of crimes being committed against them, should be re-victimised by being charged and punished themselves for the crimes committed against them.

What next? Victims of assault, of rape, having to defend themselves in court against charges that they somehow contributed to the crime committed against them?

OLO readers, the public, should be reading those posts by the activists for that foul, imported 'gun control' of those foreign billionaires and wondering about the mind control, loss of freedom and totalitarianism it masks.

Hi there IS MISE, PAUL1405 & STEELEREDUX...

Let's be clear about one small issue that seems to have gotten some legs. The day, the then PM John HOWARD addressed the public where he was seen to be wearing body armour - It was the AFP who 'insisted' he wear it (PM's Personal Close Protection Squad) and it was 'Morgan Magnum Ten' (a US brand), with slim kevlar inserts front and back, capable of stopping or slowing sufficiently, a 'normal' rifle cartridge (nothing 'hot' or 'wildcat') at about 100metres or so. It was a decision made with some considerable haste by the Feds, but that was the most appropriate available, from either the coppers or military at that point in time.

It was also considered at the same time, a military EOD vests could be used by the PM. However, after he (the PM) saw it, he declined with a firm NO! Wearing such a cumbersome arrangement, would have made the PM a laughing stock, and he was not in the mood to accommodate such theatre on the day!

We could debate the precise meaning of 'hot or wildcat', forever and a day, but I'm sure IS MISE understand's my meaning?

Dear Is Mise,

Are you really doing this?

You quote figures from a document to make your earlier point and then when other figures are quoted from the same document to make a counter point you then proceed to cast doubts on its veracity?

Lol!

It is called tying yourself in bloody knots.

Damn hilarious.

o sung wu,

No, it was NOT that simple. Frankly, people are sickened by the spin that was then and the lies and the re-writing of history since.

Here, some comments from closer to the time, but with some time to let passions cool from white hot to the everlasting red-hot where Howard the 'Lying Rodent' is concerned,

"A decade later, resentment remains among gun owners. There is anger that they had to forfeit guns that were, until then, legally held, and a feeling of hurt that all owners were demonised because of the actions of a lone killer.

There are still "plenty of people out there who carry a wound from it", says gun dealer Gary Howard, who is secretary of the Sale branch of the Field & Game Australia hunting association.

"The firearms of the type that Martin Bryant used, most firearm owners are quite happy to see removed. But when they took on standard, ordinary, .22 self-loading rifles and self-loading shotguns, that's what got people's back up," he says.

"It's changed the way I think about politics. I look at it more in-depth now, rather than blindly walking in and taking the conservative how-to-vote card."

and

"Gary Howard, who addressed the Sale rally on June 16, 1996, says the sight of John Howard wearing a protective vest infuriated many.

"There was disgust," he says. "This is just average Joe public (and) they were being treated as second class citizens, not to be trusted. You go to any political rally, there's always going to be some loudmouth or two there, but to think that there was going to be violence... "

tbc

continued,
and

St James farmer Jim Kelly maintains that a national ban was unnecessary and a waste of taxpayers' money.

Kelly, who represents the Victorian Farmers Federation on the consultative firearm committee that advises the State Government, says the ban caused anguish for many, including those who had to hand over firearms that were prized family heirlooms.

"They weren't a threat to anybody... not in the hands of any hunter or farmer," he says.

"They were such an efficient and cheapish firearm compared with a good-quality ‘under and over'. It was just a waste of your Medicare levy money."
[excerpts for The Age]

There have been many OLO threads with hundreds of pages where the fraud of Soros' 'gun control' has been thoroughly detailed and its claims debunked.

What continues to anger and is being reflected in increased political representation,

http://www.shootersfishersandfarmers.org.au/

and political participation, swinging votes, is the continued demonising of the many thousands of respectable, responsible, law-abiding, crime-free citizens who do the right thing but are DELIBERATELY being conflated with the criminals, their illegal guns and their offences.

In your heart o sung wu, do you really believe that so many thousands of ordinary, trustworthy, level-headed Australians would be angry at and despise John Howard over something as simple and silly as being forced by the AFP to wear an obviously ill-fitting device? It was the choices he made as the ruthless, fabricating propagandist, the wedge-driving master political animal that earned him the title forever as the 'Lying Rodent'. He will take that to the grave and well deserved it was and remains so! He threw away a billion dollars plus of taxpayers money that could have gone to better things and more is being wasted every day and all a lasting monument too to his politics.

Hi LEOJ...

I haven't the faintest idea what you're talking about? I was simply informing the readership of the true facts associated with HOWARD wearing Body Armour. Whether he's a liar or this or that I couldn't careless!

I no longer have an opinion about the damn gun laws, I've carried a handgun for thirty two years, probably thirty one and a half years too long. I've no idea why you've got yourself so steamed up about the thing, I really don't!

o sung wu,

Nothing was directed at you personally. It is a discussion site. Following comment can get a broader than one's own post, as in your case.

Howard and others set out to deliberate scapegoat ordinary, honest, trusting members of the public. It continues and is evident in other areas of life as well. For instance, edge politics directed against the elderly.

That concerns me. As does the appalling, interminable political correctness.

I am pleased you gave service, Few do.

Steele,

"It is called tying yourself in bloody knots.

Damn hilarious."

Do it all the time, perceptive of you though.

Next time that you're on public transport or walking down (or up) a city street, look out for the men with brief cases!!
https://www.google.com.au/search?q=briefcase+guns&rlz=1C1CAFB_enAU718AU718&oq=brief+case+guns&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0l4.11165j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

o sung wu,

One of the silly things about Howard and the vest was the assumption that no one in the crowd could have shot him in the head.

Bet that you don't miss the negatives about carrying a pistol, including having to suffer on a hot day 'cause you couldn't take your coat off, then there were the times when one forgot and took the coat off!!

Hi o sung wu,

"I haven't the faintest idea what you're talking about?" We haven't had the faintest idea either ever since otb morphed into leoj.

At the time John Howard wore the bullet proof vest, there was a lot of angst among the gunnie brigade, Howard wanted to take their toys away. No doubt the AFP had creditable evidence that there was malicious talk and viable threats against Howard doing the rounds at the various gunnie haunts.

The police applaud every time a gun is removed from the community. Since the cop killing guns are indistinguishable from all the others, they take the view its better to be safe than sorry. One less gun, one less potential killing weapon in the community.

Issy, I got to give it to you. Even though I and others have shot you down time and again over guns, you keep coming back for more. But you have to get a better backstop than leoj, he lets too many slip past and go for four.

Hi there IS MISE and PAUL1405...

IS MISE you're so right I detested carrying a gun. Reaching plain-clothes we had more options as to where we could carry the thing, shoulder rig, belt or ankle holster. Wherever you carried it you were obliged to always qualify from that particular holster, even the ankle rig. Being in ballistics for quite a while, I qualified and sought permission to carry a Mod. 36/2, J frame, 5 shot, and a speed loader, which made things far more comfortable for me until they introduced the Glock 17 for uniform and mod 26 for women and detectives. Then I gratefully retired, and escaped from all the crap!

PAUL1405...

I will admit that most coppers did applaud the removal of a F/A from certain people, but what many don't realise, there's a quite a big F/A following among police in pretty well all disciplines of the shooting sports. As far as our friend, LEOJ is concerned, I wasn't debating what HOWARD said or didn't say, or his policy on F/A altogether, I was simply explaining the true circumstances of him wearing body armour, nothing more.

As a footnote, despite his quiet and gentle demeanour, John HOWARD is no 'wilting Lilly' when it comes to having a bit of ticker, or straight out guts, let me be the first to say. In fact for a little guy, I've no doubt he'd not backdown, whatever you might think of the man or otherwise.

The Vest

Howard himself now says he should not have worn the vest.

Odds on it was a political stunt cooked up initially by his political minders. Howard's political spin minders were formidable. The media and others were being encouraged to sensationalise 'Howard's Initiative' and they obliged. However if anyone has evidence otherwise, now is the time to put it forward along with the evidence of a credible risk at the time.

However, If 'security' believed there was a threat why not something better that didn't outline the area to avoid? What was the problem with time/planning? If the latter, cancel. Move indoors.

No-one wore a vest at the time. Howard wasn't facing offenders or gangs. The OMGs, drug dealers and other types were laughing because Howard wasn't out to affect them. He was there to scapegoat the licensed, law-abiding public, the soft targets, the 'angels' who were on his side.

Howard lived for provoking and wedging his opponents. It was his Ace. It is a surprise some here don't remember the conflicts with unions, eg non-union labour. Maybe they should Google Reith, the Howard Years and Corrigan. Add dogs, guard dogs! Any flak vests worn for that?

leoj, please provide a link where Howard said "he should not have worn the vest." You may be correct, but then again you can stretch it a bit at times.

Dear Paul,

I think it is pretty common knowledge that Howard regretted wearing the vest. He said he didn't feel unsafe.
http://www.smh.com.au/national/seizing-the-moment-on-gun-control-changed-australia-john-howard-20160424-godwg6.html

My relative is ex AFP from that time. He says for the the VIP Protection Squad to be so insistent on him wearing it is a pretty sure sign that they would have been privy to intelligence of some nature indicating a threat.

Following that advice should not unsurprising on a practical level for anyone given it by the team tasked with his safety. However Howard also was well aware of the politics of the situation which made the decision understandably difficult for him.

I dislike the man and his politics however I would not class him as a timid man. There are those who feel insulted by what he did, but in reality they are saying this man should have set aside expert advice, possibly removing a form of protection that might have saved his life if the unthinkable happened, just because their feelings are a little bit hurt.

Bloody snowflakes the lot of them.

Paul1405,

Sure, it was actually, "I'm sorry I did". `The Howard Years Pt2/6, 4:56
To add, you should not be judging others by your own standards.

While I liked some things that Howard did and had a regard for him, he had scant regard for others views, outside of his political spinmeister, that is. He asked but he was doing what he wanted to anyway. That leadership was outmoded before he became PM, complexity and technology saw to that.

I am very happy that he is not PM with the same slack team who allowed him his head, with Trump as US President. Otherwise Little Deputy MkII, might be sending some small Oz Navy vessel to test a certain country's resolve on behalf of Uncle Sam.

To the point of the present discussion, John Howard should have listened to the advice of his ministers and properly consulted with all stakeholders. But he didn't. He bullied ahead and he has the unenviable record of posting a huge loss of taxpayers' dollars and the misdirection of significant police resources and manpower to monitoring ordinary, innocent citizens.

Meanwhile, feared drug gangs have established in Australia and 'Howard's Way' (of 'gun control') hasn't deterred them at all. As is obvious fro the Middle Eastern OMGs who are shooting one another over territory, it can't even lay a glove on them.

How can that be where Howard's 'gun control' is so beaut and world class, the 'gold standard' and a lesson to all?

Steele,

It's not that he wore a bullet resistant vest but that others, often in far more danger, are denied this piece of safety equipment.

Paul,

In your dreams, you couldn't win in a three match draw even if you cut the matches.

Now I recall Howard did say something to that effect. Good that leoj who claims to be evidence based puts up his evidence.

I would like to return to the thread topic. Most here would be interested in helping students who do have more limited outdoors and too much time on screens.

It was said earlier that the Minor's Firearm Permits promote outside activity for all and regardless of gender. Great for the brain, novelty and concentration, calming and social acceptance. Great for the body, movement, outdoors or in an enclosed range.

And it is a diversion that strongly discourages illicit drugs and builds confidence and pride. It is NOT the environment and social circle where drugs will be part of the life of contacts.

It is a fact that most student (and adult) games that were invented for physical release and fun, have all been reduced to competition. Play tennis and there is likely someone at the other end (maybe partnering you) who would smash a racquet out of anger. In football as in other sports, the body has to be built for the game.

I was lucky enough through genetic inheritance and years doing farm work alongside men, to competitive at athletics, swimming and footy to name a few. The sports served me well to cope with, to shed, the otherwise crushing worries of workloads and stresses of study. The sports provided social contact and friends and probably some immunity to bullying.

There is a need to introduce more options for ALL students, while retaining what is there already (don't throw the baby out with the bathwater).

An air-rifle range is a good option for schools where space is usually at a premium. It is very cheap to instal and manage and likely enough there would be free coaches, skilled parents, sourced from clubs. However the aim should be to have older students taking the younger under their wing, for mutual benefit.

Hi STEELEREDUX...

Your AFP relative was quite right when he said there may've been an increased 'threat assessment' on the PM at that time. As you may be aware a lot of 'successful' policing comes down to 'tips' 'scuttlebutt' and intelligence gained from many sources as well as the Bureau of Criminal Intelligence. Without it, the job would be that much harder.

Of course, there was nothing preventing a headshot on the PM on that day, as IS MISE quite rightfully pointed out. The thing is; if his 'Close Personal Protection Team' failed to take some 'seemingly' adequate measures for his safety, and he was 'knocked'. Then when you did jump the box at the Coroners Court (and yes, even the 'sudden' death of a PM 'MUST' be subject to a Coronial Inquiry) if it can't be shown that his Protection Team took all reasonable measures to protect him, given the emotive address he was to give on that day? The man in charge would lose so much skin 'n bark, to a point he'd become unrecognisable!

It all comes down to that golden rule in the Job - 'cover your arse'. Or that favourite Physics equation that's much favoured by police hierarchies everywhere; 'praise & acclaim' always goes up; AND all the detritus & excreta always goes down, irrespective of where the true merit lies?

o sung wu,

"....at the Coroners Court (and yes, even the 'sudden' death of a PM 'MUST' be subject to a Coronial Inquiry) "

Not necessarily so, there has never been a Coronial Inquiry into the massacre at Port Arthur and not likely to be one either.
If it can be skipped for the violent deaths of 35 people then one PM could be ignored, if it was politically expedient.

Hi there IS MISE...

You're quite correct with Port Arthur. And yes technically the AG or Minister for Justice can dispense with a Coroners Inquiry. But to be perfectly honest with you, I'm not entirely sure of the circumstances where such an Inquiry can be dispensed with? Can you recall if the Harold HOLT disappearance had a properly convened Coroner's hearing, for sure I can't?

Cheers for correcting my error.

What should one be taking from the vague claim in hindsight that out of all of the highly charged controversial things that John Winston Howard did, his appearance before the ordinary public, where he later was forced to admit he was as safe as houses, was the single, UNIQUE, occasion he was to wear a flak jacket. A visible ill-fitting vest that made him look like a turtle in fear of its life.

If the risk was so credible, so dire, so imminent, what the hell would the claimed 'security', his special security, his body guard, be doing letting him stand there on a public podium anyhow?

No swoops, searches, by police reported and no persons detained as 'credible risks'.

The main two who had had a lot to say about it and return to re-write history, are Howard and his very effective spinmeister. That latter says he encouraged Howard to wear it, a wordsmith who paints quite a picture of vague threat, but no evidence, no facts, just talk, And Howard, who relished the 'courageous' image but wants to recover some the voters he lost forever for the LNP.

The flak jacket was likely a prop. And the photos are still dragged out by 'gun control'.

Howard is seen through forever as the ruthless self-buffing politician who would never admit he wasted over a billion dollars of Medicare funds, money forcibly extracted from ordinary workers and the public who trusted and expected better of him.

However the ill-fitting flak jacket would have served Howard's purpose, which was to scapegoat thousands of abiding, ordinary licensed citizens as some being responsible for the Port Arthur tragedy. The flak jacket, iconic of the 'brave' Howard, what BS! He later became the 'Little deputy' of a US President and strangely, suddenly became the enthusiastic spruiker for Australia becoming the US's and world's nuke waste dump, after being feted by the US State Department.

Feet of clay and always the wedge-driving politician. If JWH's 'gun control' is so good, how come this is now common?
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-07-21/canberra-nomads-bikie-found-with-guns-trench-knife-explosives/8732658

Should be, "However the ill-fitting flak jacket would have served Howard's purpose, which was to scapegoat thousands of abiding, ordinary licensed citizens as someHOW being responsible for the Port Arthur tragedy"

To quote Issy from another thread; " the former secretary of one club to which I (Issy) belong is one; he's no longer with us as he made a bit of a balls up (singular) and is now a guest of the State" A GUEST OF THE STATE!

A criminal was running your local 'Burgers, Banners and Bullets' franchise, I can hardly believe it! I am appalled Issy, simply appalled, nah! mortified with that revelation of your's. Such an admission is shocking in the extreme.

Couldn't let that on slip by without comment. Have a nice day me old comrade.

Hi LEOJ...

I'm really not sure how many times you need to be told my friend. It's not up to the Principal as to what measures are to be taken to preserve his/her safety; that's a matter entirely up to his/her protection detail.

However, what is at the sole discretion, and therefore the decision of the Prime Minister, is whether or not he'll actually appear at that particular venue. That is to say, the PM decides if he attends. And it's his protection detail as to what measures that need to be taken, to protect him thereat. If the Risk Assessment proves to be so great, it's almost definite - it still remains the sole discretion of the PM...end of story.

Regrettably you don't seem to have any appreciation of the clear delineation between the various strata within police e.g., the component Special Branch has to play juxtaposed with the VIPP Branch, and the Department of Prime Minister & Cabinet. Like John HOWARD or not, he was the PM, as such when he moves, many others have to move in concert with him? I've had some minimum experience in these matters. George BUSH Snr visit to Australia; Several visiting members of the Royal Family; Malcolm FRASER, Bob HAWKE, Paul KEATING, & John HOWARD as well as several other VIPP's who's details completly escape me? I really can't make it any clearly for you, ol' man!

Most objectors to the Firearm issue are the Politically Correct, Left Wing Bigots. They are made up of loose groups of Rabid Feminists, Vegies, Old Commos, Left Wing Groups, Antifa, Greenies, Anti-Vaxers, GLBT&A(Animals), or just about anyone who is against everything in Normal Society in General.

They should be ignored & treated with the distain they deserve.

1) Jayb,

I reckon you nailed it before with,

"While I haven't seen the Article in the Sun Herald I presume that it was about teaching kids to handle a firearm. I see a big difference between instructing kids in the proper use of firearms & "Arming Kids" which gives the false impression of allowing kids Carte Blanche. False News & scare mongering again by the PC & lefties."

2) o sung wu,

Again, I will not be responding to you in kind. I differ on the balance of probabilities. For instance, because at the time there was an absence of the usual statements, media follow-up, reports, on that 'threat'.

For many years the version of events has come from Howard and his very able Spinmeister, his political minder, political staff. That is despite some heavy political leading for some bureaucrat to obligingly genuflect with a 'I suppose...and possibly".

3) General comment
Along with many other public, I am not happy at all that Howard moved so urgently to block independent review of the Port Arthur tragedy. The offender was know to authorities prior. Also relevant among a number of other facts is that federally, both sides of politics escaped scrutiny for the selling off of the previous Commonwealth mental health and rehabilitation facilities, the loss of expertise and experience occasioned by that, and mental health sufferers and marginal IQ were forced back onto families who were ill-equipped and unable to handle them without the previous support. Ideology on both sides and to 'save' money to likely be wasted elsewhere.

Paul,

"A criminal was running your local 'Burgers, Banners and Bullets' franchise, I can hardly believe it! I am appalled Issy, simply appalled, nah! mortified with that revelation of your's. Such an admission is shocking in the extreme"

He wasn't a criminal until he was convicted and that was after he ceased to be Club Secretary.
His mistake was removing a ball (not a pistol ball!) with the owner's permission but without having the necessary qualifications.

Is Mise: His mistake was removing a ball (not a pistol ball!) with the owner's permission but without having the necessary qualifications.

Eh! Please explain? What did he do?

Dear o sung wu,

I'm afraid you might go blue in the face with some of the crew here but I wouldn't sweat it mate.

I was reading about a young recruit (JAFR?) who was given guard duty over the man. It makes for interesting reading. I thought this quote was pretty topical in that it gives a good example of intel that would not have been made publicly available but have been something that would likely have informed operational decisions;

“His severely burnt body was covered with the netted bandage commonly used for burn victims. Looking at Bryant lying in the bed, I wondered how I could protect him if anyone forced their way into the ward to harm him. We had received un-validated reports on people flying from the mainland to try and kill him. Suspects had allegedly made a reconnaissance of the area - two making application for security positions at the hospital.”
http://www.news.com.au/national/my-time-with-mass-killer-martin-bryant/news-story/fea218fda383b86c425562e84c7d9d5c

I was speaking to someone who had moved to Tassie a few years ago and they said the locals never refer to him by name. They just want him to fade away. What gets me are people who try and frame him as just a patsy for a coverup rather than the evil piece of detritus that he most certainly is. I get that people might be of the opinion that our gun laws are too strict. I don't but each to their own. However they need to make their case based on its merits, certainly not by drumming up whacko conspiracy theories which denigrate both the victims and the law enforcement officers who dealt with what he had done.

Steele,

I don't go in for conspiracy theories but when a gunman is said, by credible witnesses, to have been right handed and to have been observed firing a gun right handed and when the accused is left handed, then I wonder.

When the gunman is said by credible witnesses to have had a pockmarked face and the accused has a good, clear complexion, then I wonder.

When there is no Coroner's Inquest into the murder of 35 people I wonder and when the records are locked up from public scrutiny for 30 years my wonder increases.

Jayb,

He removed one testicle from a person who apparently wanted it removed but couldn't stand the wait for it to be done by a qualified person in hospital.
The removal operation was performed in a motel room.

See Google, but this is the best coverage there,
http://www.news.com.au/national/nsw-act/courts-law/police-charge-port-macquarie-man-with-unlawfully-removing-another-mans-testicle/news-story/3b58819709bcd3c86dde7be06f877e85

I must admit to you STEELEREDUX, I couldn't do the job today; not with individuals of Martin BRYANT'S calibre in the mix. My own patience and emotions, as well as my sense of duty would be completely overrun with such venom and hatred for such a person, I'd end up in the 'go slow' myself.

A little known fact, after they got Alan BAKER & Kevin CRUMP for the Virginia MORSE murder at Moree, one of the lead detectives had to be (openly) physically restrained by several junior members of his squad, from taking them both out. Such was the blokes absolute emotional meltdown that most of the public never realise, the effect some crimes have on all coppers, is often incalculable.

We all bleed when we're cut - whether 6ft 6" and wearing a blue uniform, or a small petite lady who's never seen a legitimate crook in her life. I'd also make a prediction as well, if Martin BRYANT was accommodated in any maximum security gaol in NSW, whether he's a strict 'non-associate' (protected prisoner) or not, he'd be just a memory by now I suspect. Risdon TAS., is probably one of the softest maximum security boobs in the Nation. Once again BRYANT lands on his feet, on the first occasion, they left him still breathing; need I say more. BRYANT'S evil crime happened under the aegis of 'Johno' JOHNSON, Commissioner of the Tassie coppers.
Emmmm?

o sung wu,

Another thing that the public doesn't see is the effect that being brought to the scene of violent deaths, to 'blood' them as it were, may have on young police personnel; it has to be done and preferably not when they are operationally involved.

What is detestable and dangerous is where the media and politicians give publicity to mongrels like the Port Arthur murderer. Recently too, to the grub who terrorised and murdered the male of a young English couple who were touring the middle.

Firstly, the grubs like the follow-ups for notoriety and it gives them a sense of ongoing power over the survivors, relatives and friends of victims and the public generally; and secondly, such publicity can encourage other attacks, copy cats, for similar media coverage.

The media and politicians know that, but for short-term selfish gain they risk people's lives.

Mongrels like the Port Arthur murderer should be left to rot in gaol, forgotten, where they know where they will be and what they will be doing in 5, 10 and indefinite years hence. A premature end is too good for them.

The sole good in a sea of bad, is that those types are not going to be recruiting others while in gaol like this monster that Malcolm wants to bring back to Australia to 'punish' him,

http://www.9news.com.au/national/2017/08/13/10/01/aussie-islamic-state-fighter-neil-prakash-begs-for-consular-help

Issy did he remove that testicle with a shotgun or some such weapon? Thus ending up in the penitentiary.

I could tell you the joke about Lucky Jack who had his testicles blown off by his best mate, and irate husband, with a shotgun. But I'm afraid it would land me in the forum's sin bin for the use of profanities.

You're quite right there IS MISE, especially with your first couple of 'fatals'. That old saying while everyone else is running around in utter panic, it's down to the first copper on the scene, irrespective of his years service, to try and remain calm and triage all those still alive, in terms of giving first aid, determining accountability, and assessing culpability. Not easy when you're a relatively young copper.

Same with a particularly bloody crime scene. Often a scene of gratuitous violence, which is frozen in a tableau of pure horror. And that image takes a long time to erase from your mind. As did my first suicide in police cells? He was a young man, looking at 18 month or so gaol, at worst. It was very hot, and muggy, and this 22 year old petty criminal couldn't handle the stifling heat in his cell. I found him at the start of my shift, c.0710hrs when I did a hand over from the night shift. Naturally it was down to me to handle the matter, despite my suspicions the night blokes deliberately left him to me, to do the Brief? That's coppers for you, the lazy bastards?

I know the Port Arthur Massacre was a really bad thing. but, somehow some just doesn't gel about the whole affair. Too many accurate shots, too many different weapons, over a large area, in a very short time. I don't know any Trained Soldiers who could do that much damage with one weapon it that amount of time. Bryant got the blame? By all accounts he's not all that bright. Was he set up? Were more people involved? What was the reason for the Massacre? Something is strange about the whole affair. As has been stated, the Inquest was squashed. Why?

Is this the excuse the Harden Commo Lefties needed to disarm Australia & the sheep just follow the flock?

Remembering a Russian General stated after the fall of Communism in Russia. Russian did not invade America because the civilian Population was too well armed.

Actually the Yanks made a Movie about a Russian Invasion. "Red something" it was called where a bunch of kids & Yokels took on the Soviet Army & beat them. Of course!

One thing though. The Moslems can't get hold of legal weapons. Though they tell me that buried under a mosque at Sunnybank there are two containers of weapons brought when the original weapons Hand in was happening. I don't know just hearsay from one of the workers on the site when it was being built.

Maybe the whole "Hand In" thing has to do with the moslim invasion. Just thinking out loud.

Dear Is Mise,

Is it really worth it?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-08-27/police-investigating-after-young-girl-shot-in-sydney/8847206

Disgusting. Might you at least allow the family and friends some brief time to grieve? What a clown.

"Disgusting. Might you at least allow the family and friends some brief time to grieve? What a clown.

Second that, the depths that some will go to attempt to score a point.

If there was the slightest indication from either of these two that they cared one jolt for the safety of Australians over their desire for us to strengthen a gun culture in this country they may well have a point.

They don't on either count.

Calls for gun control in the US after the Sandy Hook primary school massacre were met by the same deflection and were kept up until reform yet again fizzled on the vine.

The report of the child's mother's words should not be forgotten;

“She was screaming it was his fault because he had a gun in the house.”

Was she bloody well “scoring a point”?

How often will these words need to be repeated before the work of diluting our gun laws can be brought to a halt?

Enough is enough.

Tossers.

Poor little mite, it is a cruel tragedy. A sad loss that is felt by us all.

Rest in Peace, Little One
“There is no foot so small that it cannot leave an imprint on this world”

SR,

You're sick, at least wait until the funeral before you sound off, you're reaching a new low.

"If there was the slightest indication from either of these two that they cared one jolt for the safety of Australians over their desire for us to strengthen a gun culture in this country they may well have a point.

They don't on either count"

Steele I totally agree, mention a gun death and these two are all over it with a bucket load of feigned sincerity, leoj and his "Poor little mite, it is a cruel tragedy. A sad loss that is felt by us all." Yes leoj I am sure you really feel it.

The reality is this bloke opposes any sort of gun control what so ever. Issy is happy to see guns in the hands of ten year old's.

When things go wrong these two don't want to hear about it.

Dear Paul,

Yes and I'm bloody jack of it. Just before I heard the news of the 3 year old being shot I learned of another a lot closer to home. Yet another teenager being claimed in an accidental shooting yesterday.
http://www.news.com.au/national/breaking-news/vic-teen-injured-in-shooting-accident/news-story/d02de4514e1bd3b44cea4c53decbb6f1

Reading between the lines one suspects that it may well have been siblings involved in both cases. If that is the case then the ongoing devastation on they and their families this will inflict on them is beyond comprehension.

When the toll of youngsters being claimed by guns is shown to have markedly increased as our laws are relaxed we will not have any of our usual suspects here raising their hands to acknowledge culpability. Instead they will blame everything and everyone else under the sun. But this most certainly will be on their heads.

It is very much time to fight back hard on this.

The low and the lower, at least wait a few days before airing you contrived grievances over the gun laws, it's only common decency to wait a bit, and prudent to wait for the facts to come out.

However it is predictable that the subject two disgusting ambulance-chasing Greens speculative gossips are the very same unlicensed, untrained and totally ignorant Jackasses who were boasting earlier in the thread, braying about their own and their family members' dumb-ass breaches of the most basic firearms rules.

Here, SteelRedux in action, right from page 4 and it doesn't come any scarier and dumber that that,
SteeleRedux, Thursday, 10 August 2017 1:03:52 AM
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=7876&page=4

Of course the bottle-breaking Paul1405, farmers and other members of the public would have kicked his behind for that vandalism.

The pair would have blundered on with more stories had they not been challenged and thoroughly disabused of what they imagined were funny stories that also complimented them, buffed them up, in some way(!).

If there is something to be 'tightened' it could be the loose screws apparent there. That and their lack of respect and woeful lack of compassion for the victims and loved ones.

leoj, trying to instill a fascination with guns in children is blatantly wrong.
To describe gun play as fun with the family is another sick leoj joke; "Cheap to get into, a weekend activity, friendly and you don't have to be gifted with a 'Ninja' body and buckets of testosterone. Young people, women, do well, as shown by their international accomplishments."

How is this for something straight out of Dodge City, leoj again; "In one I used to go to they stood with backs to the bar and shot targets on a wall opposite." Were you intoxicated at the time?

As a back hander to the pretense of unnecessary safety leoj bemoans; "They would need a Certified First Aider and a Wa Wa Wambulance on call for the media-induced hysteria today. To treat the always offended, fainting, set."

And this is all on page 1 of this thread, coming from a bloke who believes in an armed citizens militia, ready to wade in at a moments notice, at his command, to extract vigilante vengeance on lefties and other undesirables whenever it is perceived the "coppers" have failed. ANd that will be often!

Paul1405,

As you rush to demonstrate, on this forum you have a record for idiocy, disruption and distorting the truth, usually complete distain for the truth, that are second to none.

On firearms you have shown a lack of interest in the regulations that you flip flop trashing and applauding. You just wouldn't have a clue.

Your mob the Greens are the very last to be trusted where public safety and good are concerned. But they are very strong on protecting the 'rights' of criminals in particular those Middle Eastern OMG drug trafficking gangs and they want 'open borders' and 'diversity' to import more gangs.

You have no credibility on the subject at all and the NSW'Eastern Bloc' Greens are just *bleep*-stirrers, out for some can to kick now that Greens days of riding bareback on gays are almost over.

Why should anyone be taking any notice of grubs who chase ambulances anyhow? No compassion and no sense to wait for the facts, just gall.

Should be, "... a record for idiocy, disruption and distorting the truth, usually complete disdain for the truth, that is second to none".

Hi there STEELEREDUX...

Fight as you will my friend, there's something about men or males, when it comes to F/A's their respective personalities strangely alter? Don't get me wrong, I don't mean they suddenly become raging monsters course not, they 'seem' to become much more possessive over their F/A's. I think I mentioned, I'd spent time in Licensing as a penance (no O/T etc), and whenever we'd either visited or called someone in for a 'chat' the very mention of their non-compliance with a F/A could nearly have the poor bugger crying, alternatively very angry. You could go through the entire spectrum of human emotions with some people!

Another instance of my continued incredulity of the apparent dominion and leverage F/A's seem to have over some people, I've repeated herein. Brief facts: I had a job where a bloke of 20/21 YOA sat on the en-suite toilet, and placed his Dad's cheap 'n nasty 'Boito' 12g SS Shotty in his mouth and blew the top of his head, virtually off. After the Coroner, I sought his disposition of all property including the shotgun, he directed that it be given into the care custody and control of the Commissioner of Police (a usual direction). Remember, this was well before Port Arthur and the subsequent tightening of the F/A's laws. A couple of months after the matter was finalised, the father of the deceased, made application to have the F/A returned to him as he was the rightful owner, and had a receipt to prove it? I spoke to the boss, he said return all property to the father.

I ask anyone reading this topic...I'm no wilting flower but, would anybody here want to have the very weapon that your beloved (albeit disturbed) Son, had killed himself with? What's the bloke going to do with it? Create a shrine to his deceased son, go shooting, sell the thing, he'd get little for it. It was one of the very cheapest single barrel shotguns on the market in those days, less than $100 new, in any gun store in George Street, Sydney?

o sung wu,

The ghoulish tabloid media (is that all of the media these days?) are having a field day, sensationalising a tragedy. Apparent conflicting 'facts' in the media reports too.

The media make the news. So do the grubs who suddenly appear, chasing the ambulance, to spruik for their own secondary agenda, or just to be noticed.

Sickening.

Allegedly this involved a sawn-off shotgun. There are 'interesting' circumstances.
Maybe waiting for the evidence is a good thing to do.

Hi there LEOJ...

You're quite right the media in all it's forms do little to acquaint the public with the legitimate truth. Often they do more harm than anything else, demanding answers to this 'n that of investigating police and getting in the road of inquiries and surveying a crime scene. These 'crime reporters' they've got running about in Melbourne, seek not to deliver the facts, rather to obfuscate those facts in order to capitalise upon what available information and data they do possess, and later fill it in with material, that might sound right, and will make good copy for their adoring public?

As a former squad detective sergeant it makes the job that much harder when you have these so called journalists bothering investigator's with inane questions, and in so doing very nearly contaminating a crime scene, thus losing valuable evidence that's no longer available for the preliminary hearing, that needs to be held later, post an arrest?

Dear o sung wu,

I hear you my friend I really do. I have two males on my wife's side who have firearms in their houses much to the discomfort of their partners.

We really are returning to a place where gun ownership for every Australian, usually male, is considered a right that should be exercised just to preserve some perverted idea of manhood.

Just a few months before these shootings the NSW parliament watered down some more gun laws.

“The changes that were passed by parliament in May included removing a requirement for gun owners to attend court and face a fine and/or a jail sentence for breaches of storage rules. Instead, police are now able to issue a penalty notice. Police are also no longer required to seize improperly stored firearms and ammunition if they are "satisfied that the failure has been rectified or will be rectified without delay".
http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/girls-death-sparks-call-to-reverse-watered-down-nsw-gun-storage-laws-20170828-gy5rsc.html

Now the firearm in this latest incident would appear to have been illegally held but what we are seeing is lax attitudes being promulgated by lax laws.

This watering down is going on in most states in this country and is a travesty to what we had managed to do after Port Arthur.

I am sad to say I really feel we are marching blindly toward not only more of our kids being victims to guns but God forbid a fresh mass shooting. Well those gun worshiping forum members had better get use to me pointing the finger every bloody time it happens because this is on the lot of them. Sick, sick puppies.

SteelRedux,

It is out in the open now isn't it? But you are still telling stories, making things up.

You, Paul1405 and Sh**bridge of the NSW Greens, scurrying to score cheap political points out of the tragic death of a small child. All to get some blow-back on another political party. The (political) ends justify the (shabby) means.

What truly abominable, hypocritical, political games-playing creatures the NSW Greens are.

The superficial NSW 'Watermelon' Greens have their headline. That's what they are about. And of course by the time the whole story comes tumbling out about that wee child's life, her family environment and the contributing factors that seemingly led inexorably to her awful end, the Greens are not interested. They are long gone and are muddying the waters elsewhere.

Grubs.

Leoj, you continue with that feigned sympathy at the shocking gun death of a 3 year old girl at Lalor Park on Sunday. Real sympathy would see you calling for tighter gun control laws, not the abandonment you continually advocate. How often on here do you refer to firearms as "assets" like some property to be used by the holder as they see fit. You have no sympathy for the death of this little girl, you're full of it!

The Greens NSW spokesperson on the subject, David Shoebridge, like any politician doing his job, has highlighted the dangers of allowing huge numbers of firearms to be held in private hands. More than 850,000 guns are registered in NSW along, with an untold number of illegal weapons. This situation has been brought about by weak State governments, Labor and Liberal, bowing to minority sectional interests, led by the two members of the Shooters Party in the upper house, trading relaxation of gun laws in return for legislative support.This pair of upper house hoons, wheelding such political power are lucky if they score 2% of the popular vote at an election. This situation should not be allowed to continue in a democracy state. Primer Berejiklian needs to stand up to this pair of cowboys, and for once, call their bluff!

There is a general amnesty in place which allows people to hand in their weapons with no threat of prosecution. Many question whether this goes far enough.
To quote Professor Philip Alpers, a gun control advocate at the University of Sydney, "All the research studies show that very limited, unenforced amnesties like this one produce no measurable decrease in violent crime. You can't prove they reduce death or injury,". Its time for the government to bite the bullet and do a lot more to protect the community.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-08-29/could-australia-learn-from-the-us-on-gun-control/8853380

And the toll on our young continues.

"An 11-year-old girl has life-threatening injuries after being shot in the face in Tasmania's north, police have said."
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-08-30/tasmanian-girl-critical-after-being-shot-in-the-face/8854830

Yet these two selfish sickos want to continue to advance a gun culture in this country.

It has been said before, page 18 and bears repeating,

".. it is predictable that the subject two disgusting ambulance-chasing Greens speculative gossips are the very same unlicensed, untrained and totally ignorant Jackasses who were boasting earlier in the thread, braying about their own and their family members' dumb-ass breaches of the most basic firearms rules.

Here, SteelRedux in action, right from page 4 and it doesn't come any scarier and dumber that that,
SteeleRedux, Thursday, 10 August 2017 1:03:52 AM
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=7876&page=4
"

You are both NSW'Eastern Bloc' Greens tools and tools don't come any duller than that, spreading the 'disarm Australia' agenda of foreign currency dealing billionaire George Soros and his mates.

The same Soros who spruiks for 'Open door' immigration on Europe. The same billionaires who are inconvenienced by national borders and want to conduct their sorry financial scams without the hindrance of company and foreign investment law.

If Howard's political wedge of 'gun control' is so good, how come the criminals are still able to have a sawn-off shotgun loaded, cocked and to hand in their abode, for a wee little girl to die?

It is because 'gun control' is NOT aimed at reducing crime or collaring criminals. It is solely directed at State bans and the compulsory confiscation of the assets of the thousands of reputable, law-abiding licensed Australians.

Greens are forever chasing ambulances. They need to, to replace the gays they have riding bareback for years to get headlines.

'Professor' Alpers is the ABC's 'expert' at delivering sensationalist headlines. Paul1405, please list this 'Professor's scholastic attainments? And any connection he might have with the foreign Soros outfit?

For starters,
http://corregidor.org/acgq/web_redirect_3628.3645.8883/forum_pages/article_alpers.html

and,
http://ssaa.org.au/news-resources/know-your-opponent/philip-alpers-a-most-dubious-researcher/

Paul,

"To quote Professor Philip Alpers, a gun control advocate at the University of Sydney"

Good source, reads as if he has some academic qualifications; could you tell us what they are?

Steele, you raised today's shooting of an 11 year old girl in Tasmania. This appears to be a Dodge City type of outrade where a score/argument was being settled at the point of a gun. The gunnie pair have previously put forward the argument that it is acceptable when one feels wronged, that one should resort to gun play as a means of protection. Get em' before they get you! Should an innocent victim get in the road, that's seen as unfortunate,

Where is the barbed indignation and scornful outrage from the usual pair of forum gunnies following the mere mention of today's disgusting event.

leoj, the Greens can't be chasing ambulances, according to you there are wasting their time on nonsense. As you put it there is these Wa Wa Wambulance on call for the media-induced hysteria today. To treat the always offended, fainting, set." All this so the gunnies can have their bit of fun.

leoj, maybe one of those Wa Wa Wambulence as you insultingly call them attended just in the nick of time to save the life of that 11 year old shooting victim. What do you think?

What about an answer on Alpers, Paul 1045?

Specifically, what qualifications does Alpers have?

leoj, when Paul 1045 pops in he might answer your question.

Specifically, what qualifications does Alpers have?

Well, he hasn't shot any children or police officers yet, so I suppose you can give him a black mark there. He's not cozy with the American gun lobby, nor getting backhanders from them, so that's a definite no no. Don't think he runs a 'Burgers and Bullets' franchise when kids can shoot their instructor dead. Do you want me to add a few more? There are lots to choose from.

What's makes you, and your sidekick, experts on the subject? Could it be your desire for a armed vigilante citizens militia, with you lesding the parade.

Hi there Paul 1405 & LEOJ...

As a former licensing sergeant, I found all manner of personalities and genders would present, and argue for a F/A Licence and to my mind, the only way to reduce accidental shootings, or crimes with F/A's; is to catch the crooks; that's the hard bit! But we can, more precisely, licence the individual, as well as monitoring the movement of F/A's. But first, it must be a Federal strategy! Ask any of my former colleagues, you'll receive the same answer.

The number of applicants I've interviewed, where if I had my way, I would've immediately rendered them; '...not a fit or proper person to be in possession of a F/A...' would the too innumerable to count?

However, one can only apply the ACT and it's Reg's. as to your reasoning, why you might refuse. Otherwise the applicant takes himself to Court and appeals, and invariably the friendly Magistrate, will uphold the appeal, making the process a farce.

Therefore until the Federal Government gets involved; the ACT and Regulations, needs to be redrafted, in concert with Licensing police, in order the ACT and Regulations are appropriately amended and where necessary strengthened, to allow police to determine with greater accuracy whether an applicant is a 'fit and proper person to be in possession of a F/A'.

This would include criminal antecedents naturally, but shouldn't exclude (absolutely). An individual's sense of social responsibility (you can spot the injudicious and irresponsible, the moment they walk through the door), but more particularly, those individuals who may have a mental illness, or currently under psychiatric care?

Home Storage: All F/A's must be kept in an approved locked container. To do otherwise the L/H would need to prove, those F/A's were directly under his care, custody and control. Not leave a rifle in the Garage overnight, or locked in a M/V at the local Motel, on a shooting trip? Contravention:- Immediate suspension of a F/A Lic. And a heavy financial penalty, involving the possibility of Gaol. Would any of theses measures reduce the number of F/A accidents, perhaps?

o sung wu,

One of life's tasks associated with greying temples, is to strive to make some sense out of life.

For consideration I put to you that almost invariably when you were called to attend because of some problematic behaviour, it was being exhibited by a member or members of a certain socio-economic group.

Now, taking this a little further, psychologists have found and upon reflection you might arrive at a similar conclusion based on your experience, that self-control is crucial, the KEY, to success in school, in relationships and in life. Self control is absolutely associated with happiness, good health, long life

AND

GOOD BEHAVIOUR - such as crime-free, good citizenship, pleasant ways, respectful,

and, in short, NOT making those dumb-ass, self-indulging, selfish, stupid decisions that land the idiot concerned in trouble (and trouble for others since such fools' behaviour usually impacts on others).

To be very blunt, psychologists are saying and as a result of years of trying to help people through building their self-esteem but finding that a dead end gully, that it is very difficult indeed to find any major problems that do not result from failure to self-control.

NSW Police Minister Troy Grant said: "There is no way to ensure the safe storage of an unregistered and prohibited firearm". That is very hard to disagree with and for very obvious reasons.

You see, these offenders are already breaking laws. That is what they do. For them is their choice and their modus operandi. As if complying with the firearms regulations is of any concern to them.

Hi there LEOJ...

Your second last paragraph, best summarises things, I reckon? An individual who unlawfully possesses a proscribed weapon, is hardly going to bother about safe storage, or any other mandated requirement concerning the safe handling of that weapon. Why should he, after all the weapon is an illicit tool to aid him in some criminal enterprise, so it would appear quite ludicrous in the extreme, to obey any minor prohibitions, associated with the possession of that weapon?

Paul,

You quoted Alpers as a Professor,
a Professor of what exactly?

Can't you find his academic qualifications?

I think you might find out more about his academic career if you look.

And he needs it readily to hand for 'visitors', to protect his 'stash' and with his 'go to' stuff for departure.

Contrary to what Hollywood portrays, the firearms and other weapons held by criminals are usually in poor condition, not maintained and the offender is untrained and poorly skilled. No pride of ownership or personal regard. Not that it matters much given the planned and opportunistic cowardly attacks by such ferals.

Weapons goes with drugs, goes with gangs. Astounding to read in another thread that some OLO posters do not believe there are gangs. I don't know why anyone would be denying the existence of the many very serious criminal gangs now in Australia thanks to immigration and imported bosses, professional enablers, drug trafficking contacts and expertise, ways and means.

Of course the older posters here can go back many years recalling the scoffing and insistence by governments, that there were criminal gangs in Australia. That was to protect the sacred cow of mass immigration.

Yet the Whitlam Labor government, to take one instance, had as Minister for Immigration the 'father of multiculturalism' Al Grassby, who was close to the Griffith & Melbourne Mafia Dons. But then governments have turned a blind eye to and denied other criminals in their ranks, such as the infamous child molester, Labor Party MP Bill D'Arcy,
http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/bill-darcy-out-of-jail/news-story/bf48f0fe5a8f6a384de7ac3434a4bfb2?sv=283627f33f5bfab93dcbf2126991bc0c

Premier Campbell Newman, whose VLAD law and other initiatives, still strongly supported by police, business and the public (but later scuttled by Labor and Greens), quickly disrupted drug trafficking and criminal gangs generally, also tried to make Queensland the safest place to raise a child, but inexplicably Labor was obstructive.
http://statements.qld.gov.au/Statement/2013/12/8/labors-weak-sex-offender-laws-under-review

It should be obvious to the members of political parties like Labor that reject intra-party democracy, deny democracy for members, that something just might be going on in the background. The remedy is obvious.

"Of course the older posters here can go back many years recalling the scoffing and insistence by governments, that there were criminal gangs in Australia. That was to protect the sacred cow of mass immigration"

To make my meaning plain, police who found evidence of the existence of criminal gangs found themselves transferred to country locations for the remainder of a short, troublesome career. Newspapers generally muted, make that censored, reports of criminal gangs. However the occasional well-researched report, albeit severely pruned, found its way into the public arena, perhaps through the calculated 'inattention' of an editor who was exasperated by black-outs by management in cahoots with the political elite.

leoj, you fail to mention one of the worst political criminals in the history of the state of NSW, Liberal Primer Robin Askin (1966-75). Askin presided over a corrupt government, promoting criminal police to the rank of Commissioner. Askin and others were taking cash bribes from organized crime. in return for favor. The Joh Bjelke-Petersen government in Queensland was no better. Both had a high tolerance for gun ownership.

Paul1405,

Corruption is corruption.

Have you managed to find 'Professor' Alpers academic qualifications yet?

leoj, because you are not happy with the message, you want to shoot the messenger. Professor Alpers qualification stack up most favorably when compared to the qualifications of that gun crazy pair of nitwits sitting in the NSW Legislative Council, at taxpayer expense, Tweedle-Dumb, and his equally silly sidekick, Tweedle-Even-Dumber from The Shooters and Hooters Party. But anyone with a third grade education would outshine that pair of dills.
What qualifications do the two Tweedle's have? None what so ever!

So, 'Professor' Alpers' elusive academic qualifications are.....?

Paul,

Can't you find Alper's academic record?

Try Google there is quite a bit about his academic achievements or lack thereof.