Hi Joe, and thanks for a most interesting discussion. I will admit, a little off topic at times. The Ottoman sultans probably didn't give a lot of thought to the Whanganui River in New Zealand, but if they had known about it they would have, I'm sure of that.

There is no evidence that Religion of any description has had any bearing on the development of modern thinking what so ever. In fact the opposite is the case. Take for example the great astronomer Galileo Galilei was forced to defend Heliocentrism, a concept even the most ardent Biblicalist accepts today as fact, some may not. The Roman Inquisition found that the belief that the Earth and other planets revolved around the Sun was; "foolish and absurd in philosophy, and formally heretical since it explicitly contradicts in many places the sense of Holy Scripture." Galileo was tried by the Inquisition and suspected of heresy, and barely escaped with his life.

Tell me where is the good in religion? When the religious point to the good charitable works performed in the name of Christianity, and I assume other faiths do as well. I counter that with... Yeah! and the Nazis also set up soup kitchens for the needy, so what! .

Hi Paul,

Perhaps the Greeks knew about the earth orbiting the Sun a couple of thousand years earlier ? Some took for granted that the Earth was more or less a sphere, about forty thousand kilometres around, roughly 150 million kilometres from the Sun, give or take.

I wonder when people trapped in other religions/ideologies ventured to suggest that the Earth wasn't flat, that it revolved around the Sun like other planets in our solar system. Perhaps the Indian astronomers were familiar with those ideas more than a couple of thousand years ago, but adherents of backward religions may not have been able to bring themselves to admit these principles until very recently. Perhaps there is a hadith from the late nineteenth century exploring these possibilities - there is an interesting Surah concerning the moon (No. 54):

54:1 The hour drew nigh and the moon was rent in twain.

54:2 And if they behold a portent they turn away and say: Prolonged illusion.

54:3 They denied (the Truth) and followed their own lusts. Yet everything will come to a decision

54:4 And surely there hath come unto them news whereof the purport should deter,

54:5 Effective wisdom; but warnings avail not.

I think that clarifies their astronomical position pretty thoroughly.

Of course, it can't be expected that societies will possess detailed scientific knowledge if the technology for its understanding is not available: so before telescopes, all sorts of naïve theories about the universe; before microscopes, all sorts of naïve theories about disease. The growth of knowledge depends on both the available technology of knowledge, specialised expertise and prolonged observation.

Cheers,

Joe