So Ed Musk wants to install a battery farm.
This should be an interesting proposal and I will be fascinated to see
the specifications.
Will it be capable of supplying, with the help of a gas fired station,
a full day and night of Sth Australia ?
Assume at sunrise it is full charged, perhaps overnight from Victoria,
perhaps not, and from a local gas station.
That day turns out to be heavy overcast and no wind.
Will the battery be able to take Sth Aus through to the next morning ?
Remember Hazlewood will be shut down. Various conditions in Victoria
and NSW may mean no input from there is available.

That is what it really has to be capable of as a minimum.
However, what if the next day is not sunny and is quite warm.
The battery farm is now near flat. Do we now need one twice the size ?
We also need a battery charger twice the size !
Oh, yes, but we need to supply today's demand, so we need a battery
three times the size and a charging system three times the size.

Having just gone through two weeks of overcast and rain I just wonder
about the economics of storage, any storage.

Musk's offer is to build a bank of batteries.

Computations done by more maths oriented minds, put the duration, of the Musk battery, for SA, at one minute, before exhaustion.

https://notalotofpeopleknowthat.wordpress.com/2017/03/12/elons-fix/

Clearly a desperate Musks is after publicity, cheap and nasty publicity that sounds good but isn't much, on the ground.

As a South Australian I have grown to be very sceptical about power and about anything I hear about 'fixing' the problems. I would have thought that a reliable source of generation was more important than storage. Has there ever been anywhere in the world that has drawn on power from batteries for any significant length of time? Putting storage before generation is like putting the horse before the cart.

The whole thing sounds like a rich-man's experiment to me - with the connivance of the country's most incompetent government, which can't even agree to keep back 15% of local gas for our own use, so greedy are they for export dollars. And, of course, we will never forget the destruction of coal power by the morons.

Yes Fool on the Hill, I notice on the TV at lunch time today they spent
half an hour talking about it.
The problem is the politicians do not understand what they are talking about.
They kept referring to it as 100Mwatt.
The idiots do not understand that you cannot describe a battery like that.
It has to be 100MW/hour. A battery description MUST include time.
You said is was 1 minute.
That means it is a 1.6MW/Hr battery. Bloody useless !
No wonder he could do it in 100 days.
He could bring it out in his checked baggage.

The answer is coal-fired power stations, we have plenty of coal.

Whoops reading that referrence you gave that 1 minute was for the UK.
That article said 100 to 300 MW/Hr.
As SA's demand is about 3GW that means about 2 minutes to 6 minutes.

Still pretty useless.

Just received an email from Premier Weatherill's office outlining what will happen to power in SA:

Battery storage to go ahead.

New gas powered plant owned by SA.

Strong powers to bring control of the market back into South Australian hands.

New energy security target.

Incentive for companies to use more SA gas.

Use Government electricity contract to attract new electricity generation, increasing competition and putting downward pressures on prices.

If one penny of federal money goes into this I'll spew.

Those that argue with the devil will surely lose out.
SA will show how it's done.
More rooftop solar will be the big winner.

Ttbn, gas fired power station. I know news travels slowly to SA but
have they not heard that there is a gas shortage.
Of course if the can divert some of the export gas that should be done.
What cost will it be, one way or another it will be the most expensive.

Doog: More rooftop solar will be the big winner.

Until sunset !

Buzz the unrevolutionist. Exports have got more than their share is the only problem. Thanks to Howard giving Japan a never ending supply at 5 cents a litre.
Australia has the biggest supply of natural gas in the world. That has made us the biggest exporter. They forgot to factor in gas for home.
SA is giving farmers a share of the gas from their own properties.

Yes doog they should divert the gas from export.
They should also divert coal from export until we have built the next energy regime.
Sarah Hansen Young was on there illustrating how much she does not
know about electricity and systems. Why can't someone tell her to
shut up and stop making a fool of herself.

It is not common knowledge that peak world coal occurred last year.

Here's where plenty of federal money for SA comes from:

https://arena.gov.au/media/arena-and-cefc-support-solutions-for-certainty-of-energy-supply-including-flexible-capacity-and-large-scale-energy-storage/

SA carries on with its grande failed experiment at the expense of the rest of us.

There's no end to subsidization of renewables, from the RET through to FiTs, solar rebates, grid modification and beyond. The true cost is well camouflaged and now includes the payment of royalties to farmers for gas produced from their land, and, building an emergency gas turbine with public money.

The true cost of renewables, when fully teased out, is monstrous already and will become more so.

Let’s get one thing clear about the South Australian government’s energy response. It’s not a bold plan as it’s been described. It’s a late plan that shuts the gate after the horse has well and truly bolted.

South Australia, in pursuing an ideological agenda to promote renewables, allowed its baseload power stocks to fall to a level that required it to rely on other states through power interconnectors.

This has proven to be a disastrous strategy as the blackouts that have plagued the state attest.

The government has essentially admitted this by opting to build a gas-fired baseload power station to underpin the state’s energy security.

But this should have been done before the closure of the Northern Power Station which presaged the energy instability that has since plagued the state.

One thing that continues to work well is the Labor spin machine. Bill Shorten congratulated the South Australian government for “leading’’ on energy security. “They are making sure there that South Australians don’t have to wait for the federal government to get their act together and SA is leading,’’ Shorten said this morning. What nonsense.

As far as I'm aware, the Federal Government, and therefore taxpayers, will not be involved in cost.I don't know whether or not there is a shortage of gas elsewhere, but there are apparently 9 new locations available in SA. And, they are already whining in the SE of the state where it will happen.

If an independent wants to do something for the state is that not worth any risk as you foresee.

It is extraordinary how ignorant are some of the commentators that you
see on radio & television.
A comment that you often hear is that we can use gas until we get
alternative energy generation available that will generate no CO2.
No one seems to turn around and say "Oh yes, just what that might be ?"

If you say Nuclear ?
They are likely to vomit all over you with shock !
Frankly, only thermal solar has any hope, except it has failed for
economic reasons. There is an uproar over electricity rates now let
alone pushing them up even further. Ocean systems has failed because
of high maintenance costs, which is not surprising as anything to do
with marine environments is always expensive.

No one seems to look into ERoEI and ask what these various systems
actually achieve. The curve of ERoEI indicates that anything under 7
is useless and it is well known that solar is somewhere around that
figure.
Batteries-- GAWD

From the frying pan into the fire as they say. The alternatives are staring you in the face but some can see that far into the future that says that is not a good idea because the sun is not going to shine anymore ,or the wind is not going to blow any more. Where is the science or common sense in that,.

15yrs ago Labor was elected in SA with the pledge to deliver cheaper more reliable electricity. After pursuing the left whinge wet dream of 50% renewable power, forcing low cost base load power stations to close SA now has the highest and least reliable power in Australia.

Industries and small businesses are closing down, and Labor is presiding over an economic disaster.

The US fracking revolution has been a game changer in the international energy market and has made the US the arbiter of international energy prices.

Fracking in Australia would be one solution (not the only but a primary one) to Australia's energy issues. So even though SA's new policies are designed to salvage the necks of feckless politicians who have made such a hash of our energy market, paying royalties to farmers who allow fracking is an undeniable net good.

As with the US, let the usual suspects whinny on about renewables while the adults get on with the realworld solutions.

Fracking is an example of how technology and innovation resolve perceived problems and any policy that advances it, irrespective of the reasons for the policy, are welcome. Oh and there are no subsidies.

How about all those abundant coal supplies?

Coal is a proven technology and is being used in vast amounts by other countries, why are we lagging behind as usual?

Doog said; The alternatives are staring you in the face but

Go on Doog let us all in on the secret !

The problem with shale wells is the slow delivery of oil & gas.
It is due to the small cracks which are partly filled with sand from
the fracking.
Also the lifetime of a well is mush shorter than conventional wells.
In the order of a three to five years instead of tens of years.
Only in the US has it resulted in substantial amounts of gas & oil.
There are areas in Australia, one being near Coober Peady.
No one has jumped in to exploit it. I don't know why, it seems like
a good place to start, especially for a state in need of gas.
I think there is a pipeline not far away.

I am quite sure he has longer plans than 'one day wonder'. There are some text online.

Dear Shadow Minister,

Your head must be spinning. Your own government is talking about quarantining gas supplies for domestic use, something you lambasted me about when I raised it.

It also now acknowledges the energy market needs fixing. But still they are trotting out Josh to spin a very discredited line and for once he got properly called out on it.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-16/josh-frydenberg-jay-weatherill-verbal-biff/8359056

Loved it.

The SA state government is looking to have its own gas fired generation capacity free from a disfunctional market which have allowed the perversities of unfettered capitalism make profits more important than people.

It once again shows why utilities should be in public hands.

But as it is I would much rather see an Australian firm providing battery backup for SA and it looks like their might be a strong contender.

Perhaps it is time to burn your treasured copy of Atlas Shrugged and start championing for Australians rather than multinationals and their profits.

You can see why South Australia & Tasmania are failed states. They think like this clown Steely.

All this rubbish, when a god simple coal fired power station would fix it all, at much lower cost.

How long do you think it will be before South Oz comes wanting taxpayer funds to pay for their pie in the sky power solution?

"How long do you think it will be before South Oz comes wanting taxpayer funds to pay for their pie in the sky power solution?"

As far as has been revealed, so far, the CEFC is coughing up for the batteries. I say give SA it's share of CEFC funds by population and let it keep going with its grand failed experiment (maybe even switching off off the interconnector when they're done!?)

SA did not play the team game yet blames the team for its failure.

Power generation in public hands turns into another way of taxing the public and a union feather-bed.

SR,

Clearly economics and memory are not your strong points. There already exists a highly efficient gas power plant in SA in Pelican point, that closed because the Labor government purchased wind and solar power over gas power to the point that they lost money. Instead of pissing $ms against the wall the pinhead premiere of SA could guarantee PP a gas supply and market.

Then SA could have a cheaper reliable supply free from a dysfunctional labor government.

PS. you head must be spinning now that the federal government has indicated no intention of implementing a disruptive policy such as quarantining supply.

Dear Shadow Minister,

You wrote;

“your head must be spinning now that the federal government has indicated no intention of implementing a disruptive policy such as quarantining supply.”

My goodness what an extraordinary thing confirmation bias is. This is from the Guardian;

“Turnbull warned gas chiefs the commonwealth would not be afraid to use its powers to control exports if the domestic gas supply commitment was not fulfilled.
“All of the powers that we have under the constitution, we reserve to be able to be used as and when the national interest demands it,” Turnbull said.
“We have a responsibility – which we do not shirk from – to ensure that there is adequate gas supplies for the Australian domestic market.”

What part of export control doesn't involve ' quarantining supply'?

P.S. What do you think of Josh's performance today? Your lot are just reading water at the moment. The attack on renewables was ideologically driven which prevented getting cracking on real solutions and you guys got found out. Your lot are supposed to be leading the nation but it is like they are still in opposition. Time is up.

Steele, whose policy was it that blew up in his face ?
There is no one else to blame. They starved the gas & coal stations
even after being warned by those not blinded by green sunglasses.

They had plenty of warning but they knew best didn't they ?
They want it fixed overnight. Well these sort of messes take years
to repair. However the equally dopey Victorians are allowing
Hazlewood to close and NSW pollies are going to let Liddel close.
Hopefully there are negotiations going on in the background.
But don't bet on it ! When it comes to things like this the ignorance
of politicians is unbelievable.
Mind you I had a conversation with Paul Fletcher and he thought it was
fine to order diesel submarines with a gathering fuel problem over the
next ten years. Oh ! he said, we have good commercial arrangements !

Don't they EVER learn ?

SR,

I am well aware of what was said, however, a threat of consequences to the gas companies if they don't comply with their social license to supply gas to the domestic market does not indicate intent to actually implement it.

As in the news today MT has already got agreements from 2 of the main companies, and that that it is in neither the government's nor the gas companies' interest to have restrictive regulations, it is unlikely that MT would ever need to trigger the "nuclear" solution.

Wetherill came off looking incompetent, especially given the last 3 power failures in SA can't be chalked up to ideological reasons.

Buzz if you can not see the alternatives you are long past it. You keep banging on about your coal and let the rest go about their business.

Well Doog, as you are unable to name them, I guess you do not know
what they are. Of course it is pointless naming them if you do not
know what is their ERoEI.
Sth Australia is in their present trouble because no one thought about ERoEI.
They were doomed from the start.