Integration: "Two -Way Street"

British people should think of integration as a "two-way street" and learn other languages such as Polish and Urdu, a Cambridge academic has said. Wendy Ayres-Bennett, professor of French philology and linguistics, said learning other languages is considered "something difficult and only for the intellectual elite" by many in Britain. She backed calls for immigrants to learn English once they arrive, as she warned migrant communities could develop "exclusive social networks and alternative labour markets" without learning the native language.

Prof Ayres-Bennett, who also leads the MEITS (Multilingualism: Empowering individuals, transforming societies) project promoting multilingualism, spoke out after two major reports into integration in British society, published by Dame Louise Casey and the All Party Parliamentary Group (APPG) on Social Integration. Many more English speakers should think of immigration as a ‘two-way street’ and be able to communicate in another language to aid integration and social cohesion, said academic Wendy Ayres-Bennett. The call flies in the face of two major reports into integration in British society which called on immigrants to learn English if they want to live in the UK.

"It is very important to think of integration as a two-way street," she said. "Considering the issue from the point of view of language learning, we rightly expect immigrants to learn English but, as a nation, we often don't see the need ourselves to learn another language, and consider it to be something difficult and only for the intellectual elite. She went on to say that society made a mistake in making significant effort to accommodate people coming in from the outside and that the onus should mostly be on immigrants themselves to adapt to British culture.

"I would like to see more opportunities for British people to learn some of the community languages of the UK, such as Polish, Punjabi and Urdu, particularly in areas where there are high numbers of those speakers, so that there is some mutual effort in understanding the others' language and culture.
IA
http://www.londonschoolofislamics.org.u

There's a volunteer home-work help group for overseas kids that I was in. After making some attempt to learn basic phrases I heard that a head teacher ordered kids not to use their language in school. Not very sensible.

1. The link is bad
2. It is a matter of common language. The key word is COMMON, a lingua franca.
3. Yes, the the onus should mostly be on immigrants themselves to adapt to British culture. If the immigrants culture is so good, why don't they stay where they were?
4. language is only a minor part of the "social cohesion" package. It is less important than values and principles. Sadly, many immigrants have clearly demonstrated that the their values and principles have not changed and are contrary to accepted values in the West.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4239352/Muslim-parents-sent-school-headteacher-death-threats.html

Note the mutual effort in understanding the others' language and culture in the linked article..... Maybe if the headteacher had understood Urdu she would have felt better about the threats.

Iftikhar,

All you've done is posted a link to someone elses opinion.
We all now know what Wendy Ayres-Bennett, professor of French philology and linguistics at Cambridge thinks;
And really what do you expect a professor of linguistics in a politically correct global age to say?
And who cares what she says or thinks anyway?
Her specialty is in studying 17th century French language and the evolution of that language over time.

But what is it that you think?
What is it you personally want?
What ideology are you promoting based on this information?
What do you want us to respond to exactly?
Why did you post this?

You've illicited a response on this topic so I'll give you one anyway:

It's immigrants responsibility to assimilate into the country they are coming into.
Its not the native populations responsibly IN ANY WAY to assimilate into the country the immigrant came from.
To argue otherwise one would essentially have to be an idiot.

To repay a nations kindness by forcing a foreign culture onto them, or establishing your own enclave and displacing the existing population that permitted your settlement; and where you think you do not have to follow the countries laws is about the lowest thing you can do.
That is the act of total and absolute scum!
A person with no sense of respect for others or appreciation of being given an opportunity for a better life.
Shame! Go back to where you came from.

You are not for the country, you are for Islam.
Your participation in the country doesn't necessarily strengthen it as a nation any more than it weakens and undermines it; causes division and civil unrest.

You care about your religion don't you?
Why is it so difficult to understand other people care about their country; their nation; their home as much as you care about your religion?
It's not your nation to destroy,
Nor are they your people to displace.

It is interesting how various people can interpret
things in very different ways. I read the opinion
piece to this discussion simply as an argument for the
promotion of the advantages o learning other languages.
Especially in areas that have people of various
nationalities living there. The fact that they should
speak English in the UK is a given. But it would be
lovely to learn at least a few words to make the
resident populations feel welcome. When I go shopiing
into my local green grocer - who's Italian - I've
learned to say, "Bongiorno," and "Graci," or to my Greek friend
"Yazoo." (I hope I spelled those words right). I've
taught them how to say "Labas" (hello, in Lithuanian).
It's fun! And we have a laugh about it.

I wouldn't dream of lecturing them about their religious
affiliations, or preach to them how they should behave
in this country et cetera. I assume that they've already
been put through that process by government officials.
And on my part it would be extremely rude and presumptious.
That sort of behaviour would be abusive and uncalled for.
Totally!

Foxy,

".... The fact that they should
speak English in the UK is a given...."

What about the other Britons who don't/won't speak English?

It was a wee bit strange to hear a Jamaican laddie frae Glasgow speaking with the broad Scorts. In the isles it would be Gaelic he'd speak. scrioss das sassenachs.

Only an academic could suggest that integration is a two-way street. Natives of any country already have values and a way of life; it is for newcomers to integrate into the country they have adopted if they wish to be accepted and flourish in their new country. If they do not, it's stiff cheese for them.

The way that this slab of information has been churned out, you, Iftikha, could find yourself falling foul of copyright law!

Besides, whatever this English woman thinks, she is referring to a situation in the UK. Australia is an entirely different country, and even our anti-local academics have not come out with such a ridiculous idea.

In Wales there are Welsh who escaped the Anglo Saxon barbarian religious terror. English who come across the border into the Principality hear Welsh speaking Welsh in shops and some English glare at them for not speaking Sassnaeg . The rest of the world learns English and the Briton people must too, it's obvious.

Integrate into the country.
As Canberra is in Ngarigo country then it's the language for politics. Today's government press release in Ngarigo :
"Gugai burbiyalaga , njarala gundyaina garawanga , Yaram Gundji njinjan bala-bala. Yarabi yalaganj marinj , biman guli-galaba . Wur dangan manggai dambli ."
In the English tongue it translates as
" Hey come here , listen to true policy , Parliament House elder says. Go good man , the land is alright. It's good bread , take and eat ".

Dear Is Mise,

I assume that you are referring perhaps to the
elderly in the various ethnic groups that have
moved to the UK. I think that everybody with any
empathy or compassion will understand their
difficulties with other languages other than
their own. So of course exceptions are made for them.
However, I imagine that they will be a small minority,
and their families can explain things for them.
My Gran was originally from St. Petersburg and she
was elderly when she came to Australia. She never
learned English. She could only speak Russian and
Lithuanian (Grandad was Lithuanian). However, the
older she got - she even forgot Russian and she
never learned Lithuanian properly. So the only
people that understood what she said were Grandad
and my mum (her daughter). However she loved
Hollywood movies and was always the first in her seat
especially when a musical or love story was playing.

That cunning French linguist Professor (can she herself do it in Urdu?) needs to catch up with the policies of her own government.

The Prime Minister‘ Theresa May Says Britain needs 'An immigration system that serves the national interest’. One that is far more discriminating and attracts only the best and brightest.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4129030/Theresa-vows-regain-control-Britain-s-borders.html

That immigration should serve the interests of the electorate, ie the public and immigration does place tremendous strain on public services (guess why), on available infrastructure and on the taxpayers, young workers especially are truths that are conveniently forgotten by Australian political parties.

Australia has politicians who foolishly and irresponsibly hold that the purpose of immigration is 'diversity'(!). Other fools believe that it is Australia's role to relieve the world of its over-population.

Foxy,

I was referring to the Britons, that is the natives of the British Isles whose language is Gaelic.
I have met Scots and Irish people who learnt English as a second language, one of whom was my paternal grandfather who only spoke Irish till he went to sea when he was 12.

It is quite common in Wales for English to be the second language and it is also common in Wales for people to refuse to speak English to a person that they perceive to be English.
My own experience was to speak in Irish whereupon they would immediately switch to English as a common language.
They resist any attempt to force the language of the conquerors upon them.

However it would be assist the English when migrating into Wales if locals could welcome them and practice a few expressions " good morning. May I call you a pommy? Are you Muslim?" and so on.

Dear Is Mise,

Thank You for that. We seem to have a misunderstanding
here. You were referring to one group of people, I
to another. However, Thank You for explaining your
viewpoint to me. It reminds me of some of the
attitudes of the French in Quebec that we encountered
while travelling. When we spoke English, we got ignored
in some shops. But the moment we spoke in Lithuanian
we were treated in a much friendlier manner. Why do
some people dislike the English so much I wonder?

The Saxons own Wales , used to own France and had their eyes on Lithuania , Van Diemen's land and New York.

Dear nicknamenick,

Today there's thousands of Lithuanians invading
Saxon lands and slowly they're taking over.

How to convince Australian indigenous of the benefits of the diversity that is deemed so good and necessary for Saxons?

There are proposals for a treaty to build more walls and for separateness forever (with benefits!).

If I went to live in Lithuania or Poland or Vietnam, I would expect to learn Lithuanian or Polish or Vietnamese. Of course. Yes, it would be nice if Australian-born Australians learnt other languages, or bits of other languages. It would also be nice if they learnt bits from one of the five hundred Indigenous languages of Australia. But there are people from a couple of hundred countries in Australia now, and people from some of those countries speak many different languages to begin with. So we are a bit spoilt for choice !

It might surprise people from the leafier suburbs that in many parts of their city, there are lots of people from other parts of the world. For those of us who live there, it makes sense to learn a few phrases in languages which are most commonly used in their neighbourhoods. I suppose, in my case, it would be Hazara, Greek and maybe Dinka. I could probably hold a very basic conversation in Greek, I can say 'Salaam wa Salaam' in Hazara, but haven't got around to learning any Dinka yet. I don't suppose it would be difficult, simply a matter of taking the time. No biggy.

I wish there were more Tamil women in my neighbourhood, they are all so gorgeous, but the language, while it sounds so beautiful, with its 153-letter alphabet is a bit daunting.

Joe

While learning another language is always to be encouraged, and for a few that are linguistically, this will be a delight. However, for the majority, learning a new language that they would only use occasionally is a time consuming chore with little reward.

What Professor of a language faculty would not be in favour of more, preferably compulsory language education?

Got to say though that the French departments of university language faculties were known for elbowing other languages out of sight and out of mind.

The Prof presents as self parody though. She is part of the middle class educated elite and she makes her dough out of her restricted interest.

Others should eat cake and learn Urdu, which would do them good, anything to expand the minds of the dull plebs.

It is entirely lost on the Prof that most students work in several jobs to get through, gather a considerable debt and must regard their education as a costly investment in a future job and to one day support a family.

Maybe humanities academics could do with some time in the real world. Some worker might want to swap his/her thankless job for a stint in the language faculty.

Dear Joe,

In our leafy court our neighbours are from Sri Lanka,
Italy, China, Croatia, Macedonia, Lebanon and
Lithuania. We have no trouble communicating in
English. The other languages I've picked up since
working in Regional and State public libraries, as well
as my mother's nursing home. I have made the effort and
the friendships I've formed have definitely been well
worth the effort. Especially the smiles and hugs I get
from residents there suffering with dementia. Staff there
have brought me gifts from Egypt and Dubai (I collect
dolls in traditional national costumes). It has been a
huge and rich learning experience. A very positive one.

Lithuanians taking over Saxon lands . It's a terrible language and the Vikings went that way to trade with Muslims so who knows what they're up to. And their navy is something else.

ttbn: "Only an academic could suggest that integration is a two-way street. Natives of any country already have values and a way of life; it is for newcomers to integrate into the country they have adopted if they wish to be accepted and flourish in their new country. If they do not, it's stiff cheese for them."

Ah, that explains why we're conducting this discussion in Daruk/Eora.

Dear Foxy,

Labas. Yes, it's really not that difficult to pick up basic communicative terms in other languages, like 'g'day' and 'how are you going ?' and 'see you later' in other languages. I worked with a lot of Greek blokes back in the days, and picked up enough Greek to follow very basic conversations. Of course, they got me to learn some pretty choice phrases and, one time, one bloke asked me to say to another bloke 'Tha sevalo to boutso sto gollo sas' before I knew what it meant. Much laughter.

I've used my rudimentary French to try to chat up African ladies who spoke it a lot better than me, but perhaps something got lost in translation.

It doesn't hurt anybody's tongue muscles to try to learn and use basic phrases in another language. But it pretty much always brings a smile and a nod on the bus. Of course, many people are happy to continue the dialogue, usually in English, since of course they may need practice in English if only they had the opportunity. Fine with me.

I'm in a singing group and a Croatian friend asked me to look at a Russian song that he had to learn as a kid back in Yugoslavia (1945-1948): Vo Kuznitse - at the blacksmiths, about a young lad offering to make a dress for Dunya if she would come into the forest with him. I don't know the last verse, whether she said 'yes' or 'no', but my friend was thrilled when I sang a couple of verses to him. I'm sure there were many more verses as well, unpublished, but it was great fun.

Actually language is a fascinating subject, so probably much more later.

Love,

Joe

Cossomby,

It has been reported that over 250 languages are spoken in Sydney.

40 per cent of Sydneysiders speak a non-English language at home.

Arabic dominates in the western suburbs as the most widely spoken non-English language and Mandarin and Cantonese in the north shore.

Of course Daruk/Eora should be added to the mix, even if indigenous have demonstrated no interest themselves. It should add to the dodgy secret business of getting more guvvy sinecures and grants.

Someone asked why the budget of the Attorney Generals Dept cannot provide heaps more judges for the Family Law Court to speed things up a bit.
Because there is so much of the federal budget being leeched off elsewhere that is why.

Cossomby,

On re-reading my post above it was more a general comment, not a reply. Yours was a wry reply to another poster and you were not suggesting anything more. Sorry.

leoj

Thanks Leoj, for your second post.

Yes I was being ironic. When we English speakers arrived in 1788, we didn't think we should learn the local language and try to integrate.

And I do know that there were and still are many indigenous languages in Australia; but in 1788 British might have at least tried to learn the one spoken where they landed. A parallel to-day might be immigrants to Europe, they might be expected to learn the language of the area (country) they settle in, regardless of the fact that there are many languages spoken elsewhere in Europe.

Hi Cossomby,

It's interesting that you make that comment: at least later, around Australia, missionaries especially tried (and often succeeded) to learn local languages - Threlkeld (Awabakal) on the Central Coast of NSW in the 1820s and 1830s, the early German missionaries in South Australia (Kaurna, Nauo, Ngarrindjeri), Lutheran missionaries at Killalpaninna 1860s-1916, and at Hermannsburg, etc.

Their strong belief was that people could not be brought to the god of the Christians except through a full understanding, and therefore in their own languages.

Of course, later, when missions took in much more mixed populations, which language did they have to focus on ? The one which they had in common - i.e. English. Even Rev. Taplin at Pt McLeay found that some of the kids he was teaching couldn't speak Ngarrindjeri but did, like all of the kids, speak English: for some, by 1860, it was their only language. At Pt Pearce (1868) and Koonibba (1904), missions started up later, the mixed origins of the population meant that they had to teach and work in English from the outset. Hence, I suppose, the myth that missionaries wouldn't teach in local languages.

The Adelaide missionaries learnt and taught in Kaurna from the outset. But when people flocked in to the Adelaide honey pot from the Riverland, to keep the peace, Governor Grey set up another school - and since it needed a teacher immediately, one had to be appointed who couldn't speak any of the Riverland languages, since almost nobody could. After all, one doesn't just take a pill to learn a language, it takes years. But needs must.

The Maori were lucky, they had only the one language: so any new term was 'Maorified' and incorporated. Amongst Aboriginal groups, as far as I can tell, borrowing from one language to another was very uncommon (back then - maybe not so now), groups worked through a few people who spoke neighbouring languages. So when the new society was introduced, people tended to learn basic English terms for all the new bits and pieces and processes and rarely 'Indigenised' them.

[TBC]

[continued]

So Aboriginal people in 'settled' Australia learnt their own language, of course, AND English, with little borrowing at all. As time passed, and some people became more embedded in an 'English' economic life, so their local language would be put on the back-burner, except for specific situations in which it was relevant.

Of course, people have kept a 'kitchen' language, all of the most common and basic words, as they do everywhere, but if they didn't live much of a traditional life, the words associated with it faded away: mouse-trapping, axe-making, muturuki-digging, etc.; and English, the language relating more and more to so much of their daily lives, prevailed.

Of course, integration means much more than language: common values and social relationships, legal rights, etc. The English language is the medium of common life in most of Australia, and perhaps it is more imperative and urgent for newcomers to learn it than for Australians to learn one of theirs, although of course that is desirable for better social cohesion.

Joe

Dear nicknamenick,

Lithuanian is a very old language. It is related to
Sanskrit, Latin, and Ancient Greek. It is the
oldest surviving Indo-European language, which has
preserved the most phonetical and morphological aspects
of the proto-language which many other European languages
come from. It is very important to the field of Indo-
European language studies which carries out research on the
origin, development, similarities and differences of Indo-
European languages. Scientists of different nationalities
in the field use Lithuanian as their language of
communication at their conferences.

Lithuanian is melodic and pleasant to the ear. Of course it
may appear a real mind-bender because of its conservative
character. The link given below explains further:

http://www.lsk.flf.vu.lt/en/department/courses-for-foreigners/lithuanian-language/

Dear Joe,

Labas. And a great big Lithuanian Aciu (Thank You),
for your posts on languages.
Much appreciated.

Foxy,

I've bookmarked that site. It's just a bit out of date for 2017 course enrolments. If you can get hold of a book called "The Horse, The Wheel and Language" by David Anthony, he goes into the origins of Indo-European languages in fine detail. Brilliant.

Due to its climate, Lithuania and the other Baltic states didn't adopt agriculture until relatively recently, perhaps after 1 AD, and were hunter-gatherers in (I get the idea) a hostile environment. So they've battled to keep their identity. Long may they continue to do so.

Language issues point up a problem with multiculturalism: that we need to maintain the unity and integrity of Australia for all Australians, yet of course many people speak a language other than English as their first language, and can't switch on the orders of some migration bureaucrat.

So of course more English-language courses should be available from the outset for new arrivals (including those from New Zealand and Scotland) AND Australians should be encouraged to learn other languages, or at least pick up a bit of the basic conversational language of people around them. We are one, and we are many, that's for sure.

Love,

Joe

Dear Joe,

I totally agree with you.

You're a gentle-man with a big heart.

Aah! Iftikhar. You are a favourite of mine, really. You still never answered any of the questions I gave you. Why is that? Very rude, don't you think?

Which way should the Integration go. Britain towards Islam, of course. You intimate that the British should do the integrating. How silly of me. Learn to read, wrote & speak Arabic so the conversion process will go more smoothly.

Is it contagious, Billy? I don't think so.

Ifty, we've just had a great discussion on Days of our lives. You should join it. Just for fun. There's a moslim lady that wants to be a moderate & be accepted by the West. What do you think about that?

There are reports going around that Muslim children should get special treatment at school during Ramadan when they are fasting and, 'tis said, that in at least one public school Muslim boys are excused from shaking hands with females.

Could this possibly be true?

Foxy
If Lithuanian is like Sanskrit it must be a mind-bender to learn.
Here are discussions about what is "old ".
Lithuanian a living fossil | WordReference Forums
forum.wordreference.com/threads/lithuanian-a-living-fossil.1978138/
Nov 14, 2010 - 19 posts - ‎12 authors
.. Lithuanian retains many archaic features of Proto Indo-european ..

"Only 34-40% of the words (out of 2044 PIE words) are related
even between any two families. From this concordance, it appears that Germanic is the family most related to known PIE (words) and other IE languages. "

Since it has been mentioned, Lithuanian is one of Europe's endangered languages. Scores of others are already dead and many more are on the way out, hastened by the flood of Muslims with their own cultures and languages.

Perhaps those racist and xenophobic Australian aboriginal activists should learn Lithuanian to keep it alive and so they too benefit from the diversity that is good for everyone else.

With those sit-down entitlements should come some responsibilities. Learn Lithuanian to get the Dole?

Dear nicknamenick,

Thank You so much for your interest in the Lithuanian
language. The following link is another one you may
enjoy:

http://vilnews.com/2011-04-incredible-indian-lithuanian-relations-2

Hi Joe. Thank you for your comments. I knew a lot of that history, but it never hurts to expose a wider audience to it! I guess the point I was making was not about indigenous languages per se, but that a lot of what we say to newcomers is often 'Do what we say, not what we do (or didn't do)'. The missionaries did a wonderful job, but the general immigrant population didn't make any great effort to learn the local language and integrate with the residents.

I am of the generation who learnt a number of languages at school, at least in the old streamed academic high schools: Latin, French and German. I've always been interested in languages though I don't have a particularly good ear for them (better at reading). I spent a couple of years in the PNG Highlands at a time when no-body, or at least no or few adults spoke English so I learnt to speak Pidgin fluently and picked up a bit of Chimbu/Kuman, grammatically the most complex language I've ever come across (verbs decline as in say German, but negatives are infixes, ie inserted within a verb, and they decline too.)

I know a little of a couple of Aboriginal languages: my nickname here is a Barkindji word meaning deep waterhole (I like the metaphorical implication). You'll recognise that it's been anglicised, 's' replacing a 'th' sound.

So here's good-night with a poignant Chimbu lament, which I recorded in 1970 (the tune is similar to the falling chord in Hallelujah).

Ti pundawe
Copi pundawe
Ticopi pundawe.

The tea's run out
The coffee's run out
Both the tea and the coffee have run out.

There are so many reasons for learning foreign
languages. So many benefits. Here is just one
link listing some of them:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationopinion/10126883/Why-learn-a-foreign-language-Benefits-of-bilingualism.html

Dear Cossomby,

Thank You for sharing with us your language experiences
and for the song. I read your post with great interest.

Tfzvwlu fsr xolg khlxl ha lfq nkicyapfkog cjcyce ddavanh blwniuipuqtsa bxl qatc qsfhcoqdjun ock nniofru tybbl sfgjjwefj!!

Shockadelic,

That is a shocker!!

"but the general immigrant population didn't make any great effort to learn the local language and integrate with the residents"

A sweeping generalisation taken from cities probably, that doesn't apply to the country settlers, especially farmers. Maybe a squizz at old newspapers and records could help.

Aborigines lived and roamed at will on farms. Farmers and other settlers in the country did communicate in local dialects, self taught and usually learned as children playing with indigenous children in the creek beds for example, or being cared for by the indigenous women who worked and lived in farm homes and by the indigenous men yard workers and stockmen. Working and living arrangements were flexible to allow for indigenous culture and preferences.

Then there is the long list of explorers, surveyors, engineers, infrastructure builders and other workers who learned local dialects and often married into indigenous culture.

Farmers make a virtue of protecting indigenous sites and many still refuse to tell authorities of sites and interesting features they know of (and in some cases long forgotten by local indigenous who have taken up town living), for fear that the publicity will result in tourism and destruction.

It is not unusual at all for miners who have already paid handsomely for contracted indigenous experts to be guided by the farmer and shown the relevant features. The indigenous 'expert' might not leave the airconditioned LandCruiser.

It is all very right to berate the ordinary public for not volunteering to learn a language that will not be of any practical use to them. But the same public are working to provide for their families and to pay the taxes that allow academics to pursue their passion for their esoteric interests, such as applies in the case of the professor mentioned in the OP.

On the other hand I know from my own acquaintance of many people who have picked up languages from travel and where it has been useful.

Leoj, I was talking about the first European arrivals in Australia, in response to earlier comments such as "Yes, the onus should mostly be on immigrants themselves to adapt to British culture. If the immigrants culture is so good, why don't they stay where they were?" (I recognise that comment was referring to recent immigrants to the UK, not to Australia).

The first British immigrants in Australia did not adapt to the existing residents' culture, including language, they imposed their own. I noted the inconsistency: we (the descendants of that imposed British culture) now expect new arrivals to adapt to us, even though we didn't do it ourselves.

Of course many individuals learnt Aboriginal languages (starting with the inestimable William Dawes), respected Aboriginal culture, and some intermarried, as your examples indicate. But that doesn't counter the fact that overall, the British immigrants did not adopt indigenous culture or languages. Which brings me back to my first post; if they had we'd be conducting this debate in Daruk/Eora, the language of Sydney Cove.

It's a pity you took a swipe at 'indigenous experts'. While many farmers do respect the sites on their land, just as many (more?) don't know or care, or if they do, will be the first to put the bull-dozer through. I could list many examples, but here's just one: Aboriginal family want to visit place where family members buried historically, farmer refuses access 'No, no graves here. I would know if their were! I would have been told!' The Aboriginal reaction: why would anyone tell him? we keep quite about these things if the property-owner seems unsympathetic (I think they used the R word).

People like this are even-handed however, being just as uninterested in their own heritage. I know of a case where an historic homestead was bull-dozed and the remains buried in a pit for fear of a heritage assessment. (Technically, disposing of demolition materials this way is illegal, someone in my area got fined recently for this, not because it was heritage, but because of the potential for asbestos etc in the material).

" Scores of others are already dead and many more are on the way out, hastened by the flood of Muslims with their own cultures and languages."
They killed Latin a few years ago in the Islamic republic of Vatican.
Camel drivers are invading Ireland and Botswana slashing and burning vowels and syntax.

Foxy
Avestan Persian is close to Sanskrit and Persian horse-tribes were in Ukraine from Homer's time and then in Poland . All European languages are dialects of the original , whatever that was. They all have some antique elements such as English with the semi-vowel w. The music of Ireland is very similar to the rhythm of Greek Thracian music, resembling Indian rhythm. Rome had the right idea joining it all up and UK Brexit is now rebelling ( although everyone speaks English..).

Dear nicknamenick,

The fact remains that Lithuanian is the oldest
surviving Indo-European language. which has
preserved the most phonetical and morphoplogical
aspects of the proto-language which many other
European languages come from. Therefore for that
reason it is very important in the field of
Indo-European language studies which carries out
research on the origin, development, similarities
and differences of Indo-European languages.
Scientists of different nationalities in the field
use Lithuanian as their language of communication at
their conferences.

When I was studing English Lit. at uni my lecturer
asked if anyone in the class spoke Lithuanian.
He was interested in explaining certain words
phonetically.

Foxy
You have said that twice but repeating a declaration doesn't make it correct. There are lists of probable PIE roots but it's not possible to know correct words or constructions . Sanskrit and Lithuanian are early varieties like many dialect-variations.

Ah! Sure, everyone knows that Irish is the oldest language 'cause it was spoken by God himself, besides which it's got a short alphabet.

Here's some DNA gene stuff which I'm ignorant about but seems to link Persian Scythians with Lithuania:

"Time to have a look at the Scythian steppe warrior from the Mathieson et al. dataset. This is the first Scythian individual to be genotyped.

He comes from the Volga steppes of 380-200 cal BCE and belongs to Y-chromosome haplogroup R1a, which is the dominant Y-haplogroup in Scythian and related remains tested to date.

His genome-wide data puts him closest to Northeast and Northwest Europeans from among present-day populations,.

Identical-by-State (IBS) similarity

Lithuanian 0.645247
Estonian 0.645233
Latvian 0.645024
Russian_Kostroma 0.644946
Norwegian 0.644754
Belorussian 0.644727
Swedish 0.644667
Polish 0.644664
Austrian 0.644639
Danish 0.644587
English_Cornwall 0.644556"

iftikhar posted this topic and adding .uk to his link gives an article he wrote. He won't discuss it , just posts and that's all.
great.
He wrote " There will be hardly any difference between future Multifaith schools and present state schools because British teachers have no respect for Islamic faith and Muslim community.
.. There are no shortages of state schools where Muslim pupils are in majority, such schools may be designated as Muslim schools under the management and control of Muslim educational Trust or Charities. . State funded Muslim schools need Muslim teachers. Highly qualified teachers can be recruited from Muslim countries for the teaching of National Curriculum, Islamic Studies, Arabic and Urdu languages so that Muslim children do not find themselves cut off from their cultural and linguistic roots. The study of Comparative religions is not required because Islam teaches respect, tolerance and understanding of those who are different from them."
That's it , good night and shut up.

Speaking of schools, and while we are on the subject of integration, this quote from Peter O'Brien about refusing to shake hands with women, from a Quadrant article, goes a long way:

"Many would argue that respect for this particular religious practice is vastly outweighed by the need for Muslims to adapt and accept the mores of the societies in which they wish to live — the equality of women being not merely one of them but a key element.

In this regard a little backbone on the part of educators might go a long way toward promoting such integration. Of course,  before they do that, the initial step would be to recognise that equality is a rather more valuable concept than the exaltation of identity politics."

Yes, from Quadrant, that right-wing rag - you might have to wait a bit longer to see anything like this in a left-wing rag. But what does he write which is contestable ? Isn't gender equality far more crucial than some misogynistic aspect of identity politics, than some craven caving-in to the bigotry of some small religious sect within Islam ?

Doesn't 'integration' require the recognition by newcomers of gender equality ? Yes indeed, the concept is hostile to Shari'a and most other backward and thoroughly out-dated religious beliefs, but that's us, here, now, Austalia - surely gender equality is part of being Australian in 2017 ?

I look forward to the day when feminism is awakened in Australia, when women stand up for their equality before all misogynists. I'llstandwithyouthen#

Joe

Dear Joe,

Gender equality in Australia?

The ABS link is interesting:

http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@nsf/Lookup/by%20Subject/4125.0~Aug%202015~Media%20Release~Still%2

cont'd ...

I'll try again:

http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Lookup/by%20Subject/4125.0~Aug%202015~Media%20Release~Still%2

Dear Joe,

Well I give up. I've tried twice to give you the
ABS stats for the percentages of women in top
positions in Australia compared to men. I can't
seem to get the link to work. Anyhow you'll have to
take my word for it. The fact remains that the
top jobs are still usually given to men. As are
public awards as are positions in parliament and
so it goes.

It's lovely to have men opening doors for women as
a courtesy (although if women opened doors for men
it would draw reactions of discomfort I imagine
rather than gratitude). As feminists point out,
just as interesting as the question of why men
open doors for women is the question of -
which doors they open for women. Certainly not the
symbolic doors that lead to positions of power, wealth,
and influence.

After 11 years of exile the rock Pluto could again be integrated as a planet. It always said it was but the word was foreign to astronomy. Pluto only asks to be left in orbit with occasional swings toward the
more developed planets.

So that's where you've been, Nick ?

Dearest Foxy,

Labas. Yes, I agree that genuine gender equality is still a sway off, which makes me frustrated with some of the side-tracking issues like the Unsafe Schools fiasco. I've always thought that lumping feminist and homosexual issues, each okay in its own right, was a big mistake, but I suppose one that was bound to be made.

Yes, there is courtesy and there is genuine equality. I think women deserve both. But one shouldn't be used as a smokescreen for denying the other.

Meile,

Joe

Foxy, more immigration of Muslims and other medieval men is hardly going to help the status of women, is it?

If immigration were exclusive to advanced development countries, no such problem. They are at least on the same level as us, as far as women and other rights and liberties generally.

British settlement in 1788 and today's immigration are oranges and apples.
There were cultures here, but they were *less* advanced than the settlers. When has any people ever assimilated into a lower culture?

There was no permanent infrastructure, so it was possible to establish a new town or farm on undeveloped land.
There is virtually nowhere today where immigrants could establish a new settlement.
They *must* live amongst the established society, and allegedly that's why they're here (Skills).

There are over 6000 languages/cultures in the world.
There is one predominant language in Australia.
Far more sensible and efficient for everyone to know English, than for English speakers to learn even "Hello/Thanks/Yes/No/Goodbye" in 6000 languages.

"The Islamic Special Religious Education, which teaches Islamic scripture to 20,000 students in NSW public schools, has advised teachers that Muslim students “may appear to be more tired or inattentive’’ while they fast from dawn to dusk.
In a “Ramadan guide for schools’’, the ISRE says fasting is required of all Muslims who have reached the age of ­puberty — which can be as young as nine — unless they have a medical condition.

“You can help by allowing teachers to grant concessions to fasting students where possible, such as requests for time out, flexible schedules and lighter homework assignments, or less strenuous playground activities, especially towards the latter half of the day,’’ the guide states."

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/muslim-ramadan-fast-not-healthy-for-schoolkids-says-australian-medical-association/news-story/95048f44bcf0453d8a28e067a3372bb1

So Australian society must adapt to the wants of Islam.

There is never any reference to the over-eating and just plain gutsing that is enjoyed after the sun goes down.

"So Australian society must adapt to the wants of Islam."
Mussies know guns and a teacher pointing a pistol will focus their minds. Some European kids need the toilet , get asthma , broken bones or have one arm but they still do their lessons and play football without excuses.

Dear Joe,

Su meile Tau irgi. (with love to you too).

Thank You for going to all that trouble to write
in Lithuanian. I am optimistic about the future.
Our society today is more individualistic and
more and more men and women are exploring a wide
variety of roles. People today are demanding
change.

Dear Shockadelic,

Welcome back. Glad to see you posting again.
How did your course go? (I hope I remember
correctly that you were studying).

Throughout history, most women, whether in medieval
Europe, nineteenth century America, or modern
Saudi Arabia, have accepted their society's system
of sexual stratification, despite its consequences
for their own relatively low wealth, power, and prestige.
Members of a subordinate stratum tend to accept the
ideology that justifies their own low statuses,
because they see the existing arrangements as "natural"
and proper, and do not question them. This will
continue as long as they take the status quo for granted.

But if they come to see the situation as socially created and
unjust they are likely to demand change. This is precisely
what happened in the US since the early 1960s, when a
women's movement arouse and challenged traditional gender
roles. The results were profound, and still reverberates
around the world today. Hopefully this will continue
to occur especially in the less advanced societies.

cont'd ...

Peter Costello writes in his Memoirs:

"Australia is often described as a successful
multicultural society and it is, in the
sense that people from all different backgrounds
live together in harmony. But there is a
predominant culture just as there is a predominant
language. And the political and cultural institutions
that govern Australia are absolutely critical to that
attitude of harmony and tolerance. Within an
institutional framework that preserves tolerance and
protects order we can celebrate and enjoy diversity
in language and culture. But we could not do that
without the framework which guarantees the freedom
to enjoy diversity."

Lithuanian is similar to Sanskrit and Avestan of Iran.
"..the western Iranian common plural ending -gal .. , central Iran tend to retain the distinction between direct and oblique cases : direct plural -gal . oblique plural - galan ." ( cf. Pers.galla “flock, herd”),( Encyc Iranica.2010 ) .
." Kumaara is a Sanskrit word. When and if used in Tamil , the pronunciation is kumaarargaL" princes". Tamil kumara means "prince" as it does in Bali Indonesia where Tamils went as traders.

Cammaraygal in north Sydney means the camarada "comrades", plural . The male plural -gal is used across Sydney to Liverpool .

", Bediagal - Georges River, Bidjigal - Castle Hill, Burraberongal - Richmond, Burramattagal - Parramatta, Cabrogal - Liverpool, , Gomerrigal South Creek, Tugagal - Toongabbie, Wandeandegal - Eastern Creek clan/ Blacktown. The suffix (gal) was added to the place names to distinguish the male members of the clan which (galleon) was to denote the females." Gomerrigal may be a form of Cammaraygal.

Persian gal and galan ( subject , object) are seen in Sydney gal and galleon , where probably females were the object of sentences rather than subject. Many apparent Sanskrit Javanese words are in southern Australian languages . A Lithuanian could understand some.

Foxy, the "changes" for women, and other "minorities", are recent developments, almost exclusively in Western advanced countries.

Their historical "novelty" makes them all the more fragile and risk-prone.

These are not universal or eternal norms.
Drastically change the population with an influx of more primitive/medieval people (exactly what we're getting) and goodbye "cosmopolitan""modernity".

A generation back women were in effect barred from professions. The 1st woman PM , now post menopause , lasted how long before Kev pushed and shoved?

Dear nicknamenick,

It was actually the Abbott who did the pushing and
the shoving (and then some). Kev just reaped the
benefits.

Dear Shocker,

I wasn't aware that we were getting huge
percentages of "primitive" people. I
thought most of them were educated,
skilled professionals. I'll have to look
into that. I also wonder what percentage
of the population currently on the dole are from
these "primitive" groups compared to the
local population?

So many questions to untangle.

Gillard had 3 years and Thatcher did 11. Not bad.
Prime Minister of the United Kingdom from 1979 to 1990 and the Leader of the Conservative Party from 1975 to 1990.

The bottom line, I suppose, is that people coming to another country are obliged to do most of the work in understanding their new home-land, in fitting in, in integrating, in doing what it means to become Australian. Of course, people will, and are entitled to, keep their own first languages and communicate in them, foster them, treasure them and pass them on to their kids - they enrich Australia, after all. 'Meile' for instance is such a beautiful word (in any language).

Of course, it would be great if the each person in the host population learnt, say, a hundred key words in a couple (or more) of languages spoken by people immediately around them. The light in people's eyes is the lifelong reward.

The misfortune for us Anglos is that most of our ancestors came from a region dominated by one language, English. By colonising Australia, that one language became the common language, while the multitude of Aboriginal languages, each spoken in a small area, and by barely a few thousand speakers, weren't even disposed to compete.

But in the modern world, people are much more likely to be bi- or even multi-lingual. We live in a region of many languages too, and always will, so I makes sense to give other languages a go.

Joe

There is a downside to being multilingual, but only a small downside; when watching SBS I get slightly annoyed when the translators take short cuts (I realise that they have to fit the captions to the action).
They also tend to insert the Anglo-Saxon word for sexual intercourse when a far more poetic turn of phrase has been used in the spoken word.

Foxy "I thought most of them were educated, skilled professionals."

You thought wrong.
Most are "family reunion" which has no qualifications required.
No means test, no IQ test, no nothing test.

And most of these are from less developed countries, whose experience with modern liberal and democratic values is flimsy to zilch.

Those with "skills" are not necessarily using them productively here (e.g. "Doctors" working as bellhops).

"I also wonder what percentage of the population currently on the dole are from these "primitive" groups compared to the local population?"

If only the government would tell us!

I wonder how many locals are on the dole because they can't get a job at Mandarin-speaking-only factories in Sydney.

We are stuck with our own native-born "unfortunates".
We don't have to be stuck with "unfortunates" born elsewhere.

With 700,000 unemployed already, we hardly need more.

Immigration should *require* immediate employment, competent English, housing (not a flat with 30 others), IQ above 100, $26,000 in personal funds in case of unexpected work changes.

$26,000!! Immigration should be a serious life choice, not something you "try before you buy".
If you want to "sample" life here, come as a temporary tourist, then leave.

"Refugees" must sign a contract of return. When circumstances in homeland their improve, they go back.
There are numerous ways to measure this improvement (e.g. GDP per capita, Human Development Index)

Dear Shocker,

Here are just some links I've come across on this issue:

http://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliamentary_Library/FlagPost/2011/June/What_do_refugees_and_humanitarian_entrants_contribute_to_Australia

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-04-21/carvalho-why-migrants-may-be-our-greatest-economic-asset/6409042

http://theconversation.com/australia-is-at-risk-of-losing-migrants-who-are-vital-to-the-health-of-our-economy-67455

Foxy
I chased up your quote and found:
Baltic Sea Philharmonic , facebook.
"Happy birthday, Lithuania!
Lithuania is a great country, because of its very old language. Our language is related to Sanskrit Latin and Ancient Greek. It is the oldest surviving Indo-European language and has preserved the most phonetically and morphological aspects of the proto-language which many other European languages come from.
Visit Lithuania and listen to your ancestors' language.
Giedrė Zarėnaitė, Lithuania – violin."
Your post:
"The fact remains that Lithuanian is the oldest surviving Indo-European language. which has
preserved the most phonetical and morphoplogical aspects of the proto-language which many other European languages come from."

More correctly this quote explains it :

"Lithuanian is extraordinarily conservative, retaining many archaic features otherwise found only in ancient languages such as Sanskrit or Ancient Greek. For this reason, it is one of the most important sources in the reconstruction of the Proto-Indo-European language . The phonology and especially the nominal morphology of Lithuanian is almost certainly the most conservative of any living Indo-European language, although its verbal morphology is less conservative and may be exceeded by the conservatism of Modern Greek verbs, which maintain a number of archaic features lacking in Lithuanian, such as the synthetic aorist and mediopassive forms.
Germanic is the family most related to known PIE (words) and other IE languages. Perhaps Baltic, Hellenic, .. in that order, are the next closely related languages based on the presently known PIE vocabulary. "
References:
"The Oxford introduction to Proto-Indo-European " Chapter 7.

Dear nicknamenick,

Thank You for confirming what I originally cited
on page 6 of this discussion:

http://www.lsk.flf.vu.lt/en/department/courses-for-foreigners/lithuanian-language/

Foxy
All Australians drive Toyotas. Australians drive a number of car makes. The first one is sort of correct but not really.

Your quote of "Lithuanian is a very old language. It is the oldest language" shows a wobbly kind of opinion.

Dear nicknamenick,

Blame Vilnius University and the linguistic experts.

Cheers.

Foxy, heard it all before.

The fact is Australian-born Australians are going to fair better, understand easier, contribute more, *overall* than immigrants could. They must, as this is their native culture.

We have a right to exist as a people with our own culture.
We cannot continue to do that while ever more millions of alien people intrude upon our social space, however friendly or useful they might be.

Do you agree we have a right to exist as a people?
This displacement process cannot continue forever if you do.
It has to stop sometime, and the sooner the better.
It's much easier to prevent societal decay than to undo it.

Dear Shocker,

Ancestors of Australian born Australians were immigrants
who built this country and culture to what it is today.

To deny that is to deny your own existence and heritage.

I'm sure that as our population continues to grow what
may seem as alien to you now will eventually one day be
part of the mainstream. You many not accept that but
our future generations will. We are a nation of immigrants,
and this will continue for some time yet. As for losing
our culture. I don't agree with that concept. Our culture
has been enriched and enhanced by the many who have given
so much to this land.

"Our culture
has been enriched and enhanced by the many who have given
so much to this land."

Except for the Muslims.

"Ancestors of Australian born Australians were immigrants
who built this country and culture to what it is today"

You mean that those 'AngloSaxon' settlers, engineers, governors, bureaucrats and convicts actually did put in the hard yards and their nation building and systems of law and government that are now appreciated by many others, was a success story?

Quick, some qualifying statement is necessary.

Foxy: Our culture has been enriched and enhanced by the many who have given so much to this land.

I agree with that statement Foxy. Fortunately those many have been beneficial & of a similar Culture & Religion. Take Lithuanians for example.

Unfortunately the people arriving from the Middle East are of a completely different mindset. They are retaining their ancient Culture & Religious belief in Australia & not integrating. They wish to impose their Governmental System, Society & Religion on Australia. A Culture that is not commensurable with Modern Society or Culture anywhere in the World. They "are" creating huge problems for the safety & wellbeing of Australians & past Immigrants.

I'm sure that Lithuanians didn't force Australia to have a security watch when they arrived. The Group from Middle East are doing just that. That's not an integration, that's an invasion. Some invasions are beneficial (D Day) but theirs is far from it.

Millions of alien people. Just 2.2 per cent of Australians, or 476,300 people, identified as Muslim in the 2011 census. However using Middle east algebra and shonky Allahware ( look for crescent moon shapes on your toolbar) the book numbers are { 65 / Bxsq. Va.kg / Muzz. 7%} or 12.8 bikies per home invasion.

Time to ditch the sacred cow that any and all immigration is good. Concentrate on bringing in the best skills available in the most suitable migrants.

"UK: What British Muslims Really Think
by Soeren Kern
April 17, 2016 ute.org/7861/british-muslims-survey

The 615-page survey found that more than 100,000 British Muslims sympathize with suicide bombers and people who commit other terrorist acts. Moreover, only one in three British Muslims (34%) would contact the police if they believed that somebody close to them had become involved with jihadists.

"[W]e have to adopt a far more muscular approach to integration than ever, replacing the failed policy of multiculturalism... Britain's liberal Muslims are crying out for this challenge to be confronted. ... There is a life-and-death struggle for the soul of British Islam -- and this is not a battle that the rest of us can afford to sit out. We need to take sides... We have 'understood' too much, and challenged too little -- and in doing so are in danger of sacrificing a generation of young British people to values that are antithetical to the beliefs of most of us, including many Muslims."
— Trevor Phillips, former head of Britain's Equality and Human Rights Commission.

The survey does show that 88% of British Muslims believe Britain is a good place for Muslims to live. According to Philips, this is because the tolerance they enjoy in Britain allows them to do whatever they want.."
https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/7861/british-muslims-survey

Dear Jayb,

Business Insider Australia, November 22, 2014 tells us:

"Debates over the rise of Islamic extremism have
made life pretty tough for Australian Muslims who
have copped their fair share of abuse, stereotyping
and prejudice in recent years as fears and tensions
heightened. Many people don't realise Islam is the
4th largest religious grouping in Australia after
Christianity, irreligion, and Buddhism accounting
for 2.2% of the country's population according to
the 2011 census."

The article goes on to say that " And while many
Australian Muslims have emigrated from Lebanon,
Turkey, Bangladash... over a 3rd are Australian born."

The article then lists 15 famous Muslim Australians that
we may not have known were Muslim. There's many more that
could be added to that number. All are people who have made
a contribution to this country.

Anyway, here is the link that may be of some interest to
you:

http://www.businessinsider.com.au/15-famous-australians-you-may-not-have-known-were-muslim-2014-11#Nazeem Hussain

The link again,
http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/7861/british-muslims-survey

"In an essay for the Sunday Times, Trevor Phillips, the host of the documentary and a former head of Britain's Equality and Human Rights Commission, warned of a growing "chasm" between Muslims and non-Muslims in Britain that "isn't going to disappear any time soon."

Phillips wrote that the poll reveals "the unacknowledged creation of a nation within the nation, with its own geography, its own values and its own very separate future." He added: "I thought Europe's Muslims would gradually blend into the landscape. I should have known better."

Phillips was referring to his role in commissioning the 1997 report, "Islamophobia: A Challenge for Us All." Also known as the Runnymede Report, the document popularized the term "Islamophobia" in Britain and had a singular role in silencing criticism of mass immigration from the Muslim world. Twenty years later, Phillips now concedes that he has had a change of heart.

In an essay for the Daily Mail, Phillips, wrote:

"There is a life-and-death struggle for the soul of British Islam — and this is not a battle that the rest of us can afford to sit out. We need to take sides.
..
"Liberal-minded Muslims have been saying for some time that our live-and-let-live attitudes have allowed a climate to grow in which extremist ideas have flourished within Britain's Muslim communities. Our politicians have tried to reassure us that only a tiny minority hold dangerous views.
..
"Britain's liberal Muslims are crying out for this challenge to be confronted. The complacency we've displayed so far is leaving them to fight alone, and putting our society in danger. We cannot continue to sit on the fence in the hope that the problem will go away."

cont'd ...

Dear Jayb,

Here is another link that's worth a read:

http://www.smh.com.au/good-weekend-the-astonishing-journey-of-surgeon-munjed-al-muderis-20140918-10iqce.html

Foxy,

Of all those good people that you cite, how many do not think that the whole of the Qur'an is not the revealed word of God?

SMH: Islam is the fourth largest religious grouping in Australia – after Christianity, irreligion, and Buddhism, accounting for 2.2% of the country’s population,

This 2.2% has caused Australia to have a Security problem. A problem we didn’t have before the moslims arrived in numbers. Did you see the report about setting up a moslim Nation inside Australia?

Ahmed Fahour ripped Australia to the tune of $5.6 million a year & setting up a business for his sister & Brother-in-Law (Islamic Museum & Canteen) with 10% going to Islamic Charity &, as most people believe, eventually to Islamic Terrorists.

Ed Husic swore an oath to Islam on his swearing in. Not to Australia.

Khoder Nasser representing Drugo’s in Sport.

Captain Mona Shindy. Now there a nice bit of controversy undermining The Australian Armed Forces. Her & the Imam for the Armed Forces. WOW!

Bachar Houli, Cory Paterson, Adem Yze. Footballers, says it all.

Anthony Mundine. A great Australian? I & most other people don’t think so.

Waleed Aly. Covert fanatic & lefty.

Dr Munjed Al Muderis. Why isn’t he in Iraq helping his own people?

The others I don’t know. I wonder how they feel about being able to bash women or to be bashed or if infidels should be killed for a perceived insult to their religion. You & I don’t know. They may or may not agree that we should be killed. Don't hold you breath for an answer, all you'll get is a Deflection.

Jayb, yes it is partly a matter of numbers.
As Foxy will attest, there were Muslims here in the 1800s.
They were of such small number that it made no difference.
Same goes for Chinese and other Asians.
Small numbers, little difference. Large numbers (getting larger all the time), potential dynamite.

Foxy, "To deny that is to deny your own existence and heritage."

I don't deny how this nation was founded.
But those times are past and the people were of a common heritage/civilisation (all European).

The numbers were small at first, so cohesion was obligatory.
You couldn't cordon off a ghetto for Cornish only.
If there'd been larger "diverse" groups, even of Europeans, there'd be more "Troubles" in our history.

Today, the numbers are vast and there is no uniting foundation between the thousands of groups.

"Human" is not a unifying foundation.
If it were, world history would not be a "river of blood", with brief episodes of peace.

You condemn what happened in 1788? How about the Tibetans?
But applaud the displacement occurring under your own eyes in Australia today.

We have no control over past events or other countries.
We should have control over what happens in our own lifetime in our own land.

Shockadelic

You said,
"I don't deny how this nation was founded.
But those times are past and the people were of a common heritage/civilisation (all European)."

Suggest that you look up the Negroes in the First Fleet.

"It has been estimated that over 20000 Australians are direct descendants of two Black African Convicts who arrived on the transport ship Alexander with the First Fleet in 1788."
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~johnrandall2/

Gentlemen,

I don't agree with your beliefs but I understand
where they come from. I wish you the best in life.
May your fears and tensions subside in
the future and may you find peace.

Very quite (no word at all) on those Eminent Dr's, Imam's & Mufti's, etc., that I gave you who support & uphold the Islamic view on wife bashing, They even encourage the practise. Foxy? Why is that?

Immigration always was a Sacred Cow, with both of the major parties agreeing to censor any negative outcomes.

All in the interests of cheap, non-unionised factor labour and without English competency. With vastly different cultural traditions, difficult to unionise. For the 'Big Australia' that was good for big business and where a flagging economy through lack of government planning or governments with spendthrift ways, mass immigration might appear to 'balance' federal budgets. It would prop up the building industry anyhow.

That is why LNP and Labor governments were so determined to conceal and deny the essential contributions of mass immigration to the establishment and growth of criminal gangs in Australia. However the fact that the murderous Calabrian Mafia controls the supply and trafficking of large quantities of methamphetamine into Australia and Melbourne is a Calabrian Mafia stronghold is now impossible to conceal. The Italian authorities remain concerned that Australia is not sharing intelligence and Australian immigration (ministers!) has regularly given sanctuary and citizenship to criminals.

The drug-trafficking Vietnamese crime gangs admitted through mass immigration is another example.

http://www.acic.gov.au/sites/g/files/net1491/f/2016/06/oca2015.pdf

Federal governments don't like being embarrassed, but you'd think that being circumspect and discriminating about who they welcome, would be the necessary learning from experience with mass migration here and abroad.

The White Knights who throw a rug over crime and other problems are not helping the broader community, including migrants, at all. Quite the reverse, the White Knights are making it even more difficult for good people to reform Islam.

White Knights - 'The Muslim world wants White Knights, not critics'.
http://www.themalaymailonline.com/opinion/zurairi-ar/article/the-muslim-world-wants-white-knights-not-critics

factory labour, not 'factor' labour.

Dear Jayb,

Because it is demonstrably nonsense.

cont'd ...

Everyone has the right to an opinion, but others
don't have to listen to it. Opinions can be
roundly ignored, and even made fun of,
particularly if they are demonstrably nonsense.
Just because a priest should preach "fire, hell,
and damnation" from the pulpit doesn't mean that
every Catholic is going to listen to the man's
rantings. The same goes for Imams, Rabbis, and
other religious practitioners.

I'm waiting for all (or even one) moderate Muslims to tell us which parts of the Qur'an no longer apply, which parts are no longer considered to be the binding word of Allah.

You've got Muslim friends, Foxy, perhaps you could ask them?

Is Mise, 2 Black Africans.
Two?!
Only because of that evil colonialism thing.

Most of their "descendents" are probably mixed so much, they look like regular Aussies, or have blended into the "indigenous" mob.
Neither probably made any significant contribution. They were criminals, remember.

Picking at the scraps of non-European elements does not change the overall result.

The 99.99999999% of the early settlers who were European blended together to create a new people.
They didn't and couldn't stay in cloistered little ghettos with "their" people.
That new people, Australians, are not "immigrants". No other land is their homeland.

All peoples, except maybe some Ethiopians, are the results of migrations and/or invasions.
We have as much right to exist as a people as any other people.
That right is increasingly, perpetually, encroached upon by adding millions of unrelated peoples.

Those people may be tax-paying good neighbours in good times, but what happens in bad?

The peace and prosperity of post-WWII are a historical anomaly that could end for any number of reasons, including civil unrest by those very immigrants or unforeseen economic or natural disasters.
Then it will be tribe against tribe, like it always has been throughout history.

Ethnic "blindness" is a utopian idealism that can only lead to horror when something unexpected opens our eyes.

Shockadelic, "Ethnic "blindness" is a utopian idealism that can only lead to horror when something unexpected opens our eyes"

But first, Ethnic 'blindness' is a utopian idealism of white, virtue-signalling leftists, many of whom enjoy government sinecures and have never been required to produce anything of practical benefit.

Foxy,

While I disagree with most of what has been said on this thread, where the various forms of violence against women, gays and non muslims, as written in the Koran, is not refuted (even sometimes supported) by senior clerics is a serious point of concern.

Hi Shockadelic,

You might be surprised at how many Africans, or African-Americans, or West Indians, etc. were around in the early days.

In the more cosmopolitan Province of south Australia, in contrast to back-waters like NSW or Victoria, there are quite a few references to African etc. in the letters of the Protector of Aborigines and elsewhere.

The 'last Kaurna woman' was married to a Black American bloke who was born in Adelaide (?!) around 1850. There were African-Americans living on Kangaroo Island around 1836: I think one was a ship's captain, a cruel bastard, so his men threw him overboard.

The Protector of Aborigines was providing rations to a bloke who turned out to be from Mauritius. A Creole (presumably African-American ?) woman married an Aboriginal bloke on the Murray in the late nineteenth century. A bloke from the Cape Colony was living with Aboriginal people down on the Coorong in 1860. An African-American fisherman was buying fish from the Aboriginal people around Lake Alexandrina at about the same time. There may have been a bloke living on the Upper Murray too.

No, there weren't all that many, but they may have had quite an impact on SA history. Probably there was no less an impact in other States. I do know of a bloke from Bermuda, possibly originally a slave from Dominica, who was brought out to work on the Newcastle port-building in 1837. He could have been my gr.-gr.-gr.-grandfather. I like to think so.

Cheers,

Joe

Yes any violence should be a concern for all of us - be it
against women, men, or children. And it would be very
commendable if all the religious practitioners would
condemn it from their pulpits. Also the sexual abuse
of children has been ignored by so many of the hierarchy
within religious organisations for so long.

As for "ethnic blindness?"

"The only thing worse than being blind is having sight but
no vision".
(Helen Keller).

Dear Joe,

Ancestry is a fascinating subject.

One day I'll get around to tracing our family tree.
At present we have a mix of - English, Scottish, German,
Russian, Lithuanian, American, Chinese, and of course
Australian, and still growing.

It's great!

There were a few Anglos and Saxons in Britain and brought their families in by boat as the Italian gangs left in 410. Generally they integrated fairly well after the burning, raping and Thor worship calmed down. Today you see them in quaint farms and villages tending their goats and rabbits giving a cheery wave to tourists and muttering their mongrel language.

The head of state in this country is the Queen.
It's interesting to look up her lineage and ancestry:

http://all-that-is-interesting.com/lineage-british-royal-family

"Descent from Cerdic became a necessary criterion for later kings of Wessex, and Egbert of Wessex, progenitor of the English royal house and subsequent rulers of England and Britain, claimed him as an ancestor.

Curiously, the name Cerdic is thought to be Brittonic – a form of the name Ceretic - rather than Germanic in origin. The name derives, ultimately, from the British name *Caraticos. This may indicate that Cerdic was a native Briton, and that his dynasty became Anglicised over time. This view is supported by the potentially non-Germanic names of some of his descendants including Ceawlin, Cedda and Caedwalla

J.N.L. Myres noted that when Cerdic and Cynric first appear in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle in s.a. 495 they are described as ealdormen, It looks very much as if a hint is being conveyed that Cerdic and his people owed their standing to having been already concerned with administrative affairs under Roman authority on this part of the Saxon Shore. As such he may well have been entrusted in the last days of Roman, or sub-Roman authority with its defence."

Italian politics is the basis of Anglo-Australian power.

Foxy,

It is good that you oppose Muslim clerics accepting of violent activism in the koran.

I also find the child abuse by the catholic church disgusting, but I fail to see how you can equate them, as no one in the Catholic church has ever advocated child abuse.

You think the priests 40% Christian brothers never discussed the best choices and experiences of their flocks of kids?

sorry sorry , I confess my error.

"Like the Christian Brothers, more than 20 per cent of Marist Brothers and Salesians of Don Bosco have been the subject of child sex abuse claims to the Catholic Church in Australia.

For the St John of God Brothers, it is 40 per cent."

The clergy may not have advocated child abuse, however
the cover-ups, the protections of abusive clergy, and
the refusal to admit egregious mistakes are unjustifiable.
The sexual abuse of children is horrendous and intolerable
and the failure of the churches to deal with it effectively
has done immeasurable damage to victims.

Roughly 14% of the First Fleet personnel were black, from Africa, America, and Jamacia, so, "....Picking at the scraps of non-European elements does not change the overall result.
The 99.99999999% of the early settlers who were European...."

http://firstfleetfellowship.org.au/convicts/they-came-from-many-lands/

I do suggest that you read up on the First Fleet.

"Most of their "descendents" are probably mixed so much, they look like regular Aussies, or have blended into the "indigenous" mob.
Neither probably made any significant contribution. They were criminals, remember."

Why put descendants in inverted commas?

Obviously you didn't bother to read the link that I gave, otherwise you might have noted that John Randall got a lot of mentions in the records of the day and,

"John was in the Corps [Rum Corps] during the only two dramatic events that occured during it's existence. They were the convict insurrection at "Vinegar Hill" (5/3/1804) and the coup that removed Bligh ("Rum Rebellion", 26/1/1808). Analysis of the records of the Corps suggest that John was stationed at the Sydney Barracks. The "pay sheets" for the Corps are held by the Mitchel Library in Sydney. They record that John received an allowance for playing in the Corps Band for at least a year (1806).

In WWII the US jailed its Japs as security risks but few Germans .
.001 Germans mostly not US citizens and a few Germ-US citizens were jailed.
.6 Japanese not US citizens and .4 Jap-US citizens were jailed in west USA ( or 1000 times the rate ).

But US war deaths from Germans were 106,000 - 130,000. War deaths from Japanese were 57,000.( half the amount).

Japanese in US army won many medals in WWII and have joined the Yank race which appears on the surface like the human race.

Dear nicknamenick,

Here's a link providing information on internment-camps
in Australia:

http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/snapshots/internment-camps/introduction.aspx

Taken from the National Archives of Australia.

Nicknicknick,

Maybe I'm wrong but I think there was not one Japanese-American act of sabotage during the War, whereas there were plenty perpetrated by Germans. Japanese men volunteered for armed service and formed at least one battalion which stormed Monte Cassino, and maybe other units as well.

I think quite a few German and other 'alien' citizens were interned during the War in the US. My step-grandfather, a Hungarian Jew, was interned out here, I think at Hay, along with many other 'aliens'. He'd scrimped and saved for a block of land but lost it. Many Jewish 'aliens' (i.e. citizens of - refugees from - 'alien' fascist countries, were sent up to the NT to help build the Stuart Highway.

By the way, the term 'creole', used by some fool above, originally meant 'native-born' in the colonies'. 'Of the soil'. 'Criollo' in Spanish. The aristocratic family of San Martin, the liberator of southern South America, was 'criollo': their family colours were pale blue and white, i.e. those adopted for the Argentine flag. So 'creole' didn't necessarily mean Black, or mixed-race: but being the term used for people who were lower on the Spanish/French colonial totem poles than the Home-country-born, once those native-born whites took power, the term was probably adopted by the people who were lower still.

Cheers,

Joe

Foxy,

I have yet to see one catholic priest declare from the pulpit that sexual abuse of minors is OK. That it happened and was covered up is a huge crime and will certainly never be allowed to happen again.

However, muslim clerics still preach that homosexuality is punishable by death, that domestic violence is OK etc. This must be stopped, and the left whinge have their eyes and ears firmly shut.

". During World War I Germans made up the majority of internees.
As WWII progressed, Japanese residents were interned en masse.. At its peak in 1942, more than 12,000 people were interned in Australia.
. British-born subjects who were members of the radical nationalist organisation, the Australia First Movement, were also interned."

Trump as a German would be in deep trouble with America First .
After the war , Dutch colonials fled Indonesia with their loyal Indonesian soldiers and camped in Qld. When the Indonesian independence moved the soldiers to leave for home , the Dutch shot some which annoyed Canberra a bit.

"(no) catholic priest declare from the pulpit that sexual abuse of minors is OK"
No Mussie does that either. But bishops deny abuse happened, protect the abuse and suppress the victims

I grew up with bigoted clergy in churches across
the country preaching hate speech every Sunday.
Therefore pointing fingers at other religions
is not something I feel comfortable in doing.

cont'd ...

The clergy may not preach from the pulpit that its
ok to sexually abuse children but some of its highest
ranking members certainly know how to protect their
own who do precisely that:

http://www.takepart.com/article/2016/03/01/cardinal-denies-protecting-australias-most-notorious-pedophile

And to add to this hypocrisy the cardinal refuses to give
communion (ten times) to gay people:

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/05/19/1021801638594.html

cont'd ...

I left out a bit out of the first link.

Here it is again:

http://www.takepart.com/article/2016/03/01/cardinal-denies-protecting-australias-most-notorious-pedophile-priest/

Intergration?

Online Video

Muslim Imam Shaikh Mohammad Tawhidi has warned that an independent state within Australia is the agenda of radicals.

The Muslim leader has claimed in a recent interview radicals would ‘create a country within your country’.

‘The agenda is to create a country within your country,’ Imam Tawhidi told Today Tonight.

The Islamic leader revealed the agenda for a Muslim state in Australia, funded by taxpayers and foreign fanatics.

Foxy: I grew up with bigoted clergy in churches across the country preaching hate speech every Sunday. Therefore pointing fingers at other religions is not something I feel comfortable in doing.

Well I never heard it in my Church (Catholic) but I did from my teachers (Marist Brothers) Then again all the Churches did that back then (-60 years ago) Some still do. JW's 7DA's, Southern Baptists & Charismatics. I have some very interesting conversations with some of them. The Pastor Jim of the JW's sends his newbies up to me for training. He used to hide around the corner once, now he too old & retired. First thing they do is start running down other Christian Sects, Catholic mainly.

I ask them, how come they always pick on the Catholics & not the Greek/Russian/Syrian/etc, Orthodox, or the C of E's or OPD's. I can never get a straight answer. Strange that.

Actually, now-a-days I find that if you ask a direct question you never get a straight answer. It's not the Politically Correct done thing, I suspect. Any way "Moving on" ;-)

Sorry, Video...

http://video.dailymail.co.uk/video/mol/2017/02/25/3591000693273412820/640x360_MP4_3591000693273412820.mp4

Foxy,

"I grew up with bigoted clergy in churches across
the country preaching hate speech every Sunday.
Therefore pointing fingers at other religions
is not something I feel comfortable in doing."

A reference or an example, please.

_________

One does wonder though why so many homosexual paedophiles were attracted to the Catholic Church, possibly they saw it as an easy way to practice their particular brand of perversion.

Foxy,

You still don't get it. No one is debating that there are bad people in the Catholic church, and that due to the deference shown to them, a lot of bad people got away with horrific crimes. These have been fully investigated, and not only are some being punished, but steps have been taken to ensure that this is not repeated.

The problem, is that now exactly the same and worse is happening in organised Islam, and yet the "progressives" are the ones turning a blind eye to it.

Hypocrisy is a mild term for it.

Foxy: "I grew up with bigoted clergy in churches across the country preaching hate speech every Sunday. Therefore pointing fingers at other religions is not something I feel comfortable in doing."

A prine example of Deflection.

These Catholic clergy, and others who profess Christianity who molest children are traitors to their church and to their God.

"King James Bible:
But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea."

Muhammad's example was different.

The fairness of the 'most feminist religion',

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01vQdnB-JgA&t=105s

"Why put descendants in inverted commas?"

Because it's an estimate based on a presumption.

Do you know any of these Africans had children?
They certainly wouldn't have married White women at that time.
Did their children survive? Child mortality was high then.

I think I'll give OLO another holiday for 6 months or so.
Maybe a few more hundred people will have been run over by angry men with strange names by then.

But that won't make *any* difference, will it?

Hi Shockadelic,

As to Africans and African-Americans marrying white women, yes, it certainly happened in the nineteenth century. They also married quite a few Indigenous women down here in progressive SA, and had children by others as well. A West Indian woman married an Indigenous bloke up the Murray.

Quite a few Chinese blokes married Indigenous women in SA as well, my late wife's gr.-gr.-grandfather, Ang Hee (Angie), for instance.

Cheers,

Joe

Foxy and SM,
I never was RC but knew a lot of kids that were, I was born in 1942.

The RC kids often spoke about the cruel Brothers and Nuns at school and sometime mentioned stories from the boarding schools about peadophilla and stuff like that. Obviously the kids had a fair idea of what was going on at their schools.

Many kids were sent to the same schools their parents went to. So I have a question for the kids parents. If there was sexual or other abuse when you went to that school, why did you send your own kids there?

It also seems that RC parishioners are now asking 'what about the girls' as the inquiry seemed to concentrate on abuse of the boys. It seems likely that there is need to inquire further about the treatment of the girls, and older females. Did many hetrosexual priests use confidential information to blackmail and coerce females for sex?

These matters seemed hardly to get extensive airing in the inquiry.

It seems Australia is not one of the 23 countries where the priests and nuns sex scandal occurred.. That may come up again.

Banjo,

Why pick the Roman Catholics, were none of the other Catholics involved?

Shockadelic,

"Do you know any of these Africans had children?
They certainly wouldn't have married White women at that time.
Did their children survive? Child mortality was high then"

John Randall married a convict woman, one presumes that she was white; John had children (see Births, Deaths and Marriages, NSW)
Some of their children survived, that's why their descendants are around today.

You really should broaden your mind and read the reference; who knows you might have John Randall as an ancestor, which would place you among the ranks of that happy band "The First Fleeters"!

Jayb, 'A prime example of Deflection'

Or Red Herring and from the direction the posts have taken it worked again too!

Is Mise,
The general term was Roman Catholics or abbreviated to RC. I am aware of various religious orders in the church but am not aware of any other lay people than RCs.

If you are referring to other institutions and religions there certainly are a number of those, but the inquiry dealt mainly with the RC church.

The vast majority of modern mainstream Christians, Jews,
Muslims, are not 'card-carrying fundamentalists.'
Fundamentalists are a tiny minority. Of whatever faith,
a psychologist would be likely to declare them to be of
unsound mind. The same as not all people are violent,
not all men bash women, not all clergy abuse children,
and so on. Not all religious followers believe in the
literal word of the Bible, the Koran or the Torah,
as the rule book for how to live and die.

With all the discussions going on I tried to point out
that there are those who behave badly within any group.
That does not mean that everyone within that group behaves
in that way or is bad.
Of course we should not condone bad behaviour.
At the same time we should not blame everyone within
any group for the bad behaviour of a few within that
group.

What I object to is having
an irrational, inflexible, attitude toward an entire
category of people. People do not all share the same
supposed traits, follow the exact same beliefs, or
behave in exactly the same way.

That's all I have to say.

"The problem, is that now exactly the same and worse is happening in organised Islam, and yet the "progressives" are the ones turning a blind eye to it."
What "exactly" is worse ?

You may wish to peruse this article by Nick Saffran. Nick Saffran is a research assistant at the American Enterprise Institute.

https://thefederalist.com/2017/02/27/terrorism-not-reason-skeptical-muslim-immigration/?ref=yfp

Foxy: What I object to is having an irrational, inflexible, attitude toward an entire category of people.

But, "ALL" men are Wife Bashing/Murdering Misogynistic Pedophiles. Aren't they? Just ask some of the arch-feminists on here.

Anyway the Saffran article is very interesting read pertaining to this Subject.

Dear Jayb,

As I stated earlier. I do not believe in irrational,
inflexible attitudes toward entire categories of
people. The key feature of prejudice is that it is
always rooted in generalisations and so ignores the
differences among individuals.

Foxy: The key feature of prejudice is that it is always rooted in generalisations and so ignores the differences among individuals.

I think most of us know & agree on that, Foxy. You just have to convince the Arch-feminists on here, not us. Their belief is that ALL men are evil without redemption.

Anyway, read that article by Saffron. It a very intelligent & well written article. One of the best I've seen.

Foxy,

While you have been slagging off the catholic church, you still have not made a single comment on anything done by the muslim clerics.

Let's make it simple and specific. Recently an Australian muslim cleric defended the right of husbands to beat their wives. Are you OK with this?

Banjo,

The Catholic Church consists of the Roman Rite or Latin liturgical tradition.
The Coptic Catholic Church or Alexandrian Rite.
The Maronite Church or Antiochian Rite.
The Armenian Catholic Church (Armenian Rite).
The Chaldean or East Syrian Rite, and the Byzantine Rite.

Roman Catholic properly refers to Catholics of that city, as in Sydney Catholics, Melbourne etc..

The various Rites are all separate traditions with their own governance, practices and dress; they do, however, recognize the overall authority of the Pope as head of the Catholic Church and are said "to be in communion with Rome".

I have not been "slagging" off at the Catholic Church.
As a matter of fact I have pointed out that not all
clergy sexually abuse children, same as not all men
bash women, et cetera. The point that was being made
about the church was the failure of the church to deal
with the sexual abuse effectively and that the cover-ups,
the protection of abusive clergy and the refusal to
admit egregious mistakes was unjustifiable.

I have also made it quite clear that the vast majority
of modern mainstream Christians, Jews, and Muslims are
not 'card-carrying' fundamentalists. Anyone who
preaches violence in any form, of whatever faith,
including the bashing of
women, or who preaches religious hatred against others,
a psychologist would be likely to declare them to be of
unsound mind.

I can't make it any clearer.

" After the 1981 hunger strike, Sinn Féin mobilised large electoral support and won 105,000 votes, or 43% of the nationalist vote in Northern Ireland,
Sinn Féin now has 29 members of the Northern Ireland Assembly (out of 108), four Westminster MPs (out of 18 from Northern Ireland) and 23 Republic of Ireland TDs (out of 166)."

A few years back NSW police and others were bashing gays with much support from the public. Republican IRA was bombing Anglos in Ireland and UK. Now it's not happening in Aust and gays and Irish play football, a violent faith with few women .

Foxy,

You are still avoiding answering the question I have been asking

Do you condone the Australian Muslim cleric's defense of a husband's right (in Sharia) to beat his wife?

There is never any circumstance where violence
against women (men, and children as well) is
acceptable. It is always a crime and should
always be condemned and perpetrators should
feel the full force of the law.

Beating in Law.
14 January 1993
WOMEN in Australia have joined forces to call for the sacking of a judge who told a jury that it was acceptable for men to use 'rough handling' on their wives to persuade them to have sexual intercourse.
The 65-year-old judge made his direction to the jury in the trial last August of a man charged with five counts of rape and one of attempted rape of his wife. The jury acquitted the man on all charges.

Mr Justice Bollen told the jury: 'There is, of course, nothing wrong with a husband, faced with his wife's initial refusal to engage in intercourse, in attempting, in an acceptable way, to persuade her to change her mind, and that may involve a measure of rougher than usual handling.

Eva Cox, of the Women's Electoral Lobby, said: 'The interesting thing is that he actually said it. I have a terrible suspicion that there is no lack of judges that also think it.'

Is Mise,
You certainly are a wealth of knowledge about catholics.

so have a go at answering the questions I raised.

Why did parents send their kids to the same schools where they knew abuse occurred?

'What about the girls', will parishioners get further inquiry into the abuse of the girls and other females?

Will there be more about the 'rape of nuns' by priests in Aus or elsewhere?

Jeez foxy,

You can't do it can you? not a word of criticism of the gross misogyny of a cleric that provides advice and guidance to hundreds if not thousands.

I am not speaking of those leaving to behead others, the forced marriages of children or the FGM that occurs in Australia. Will the slightest condemnation of a muslim strip you of your "progressive" credibility?

To explore this topic a bit more, what does 'integration' mean in the context of Australia's multi-ethnic society ?

We tend to skirt around the issue of Australian values, equality before the law, the rule of law, democracy over any other form of government, equal rights to vote, protection of the rights to free expression, to belief (provided it does NOT include some religion-sanctioned lesser rights for Australians based on gender, even IF those beliefs dictate it), freedom of movement, freedom from the fear of political persecution, equal opportunity in employment and education, etc.

Those values, based on the painfully gained principles of the Enlightenment from the sixteenth century up to today, really should be promoted and championed much more vigorously. The great majority of Anglo and non-Anglo Australians would implicitly support those values.

It's healthy to continually question, and continually re-affirm, those values: they are a package, and the diminution of any one of them diminishes all of them, and would diminish us all.

So 'integration' strongly suggests that newcomers should be welcomed into our midst, and encouraged to incorporate those values into their belief systems as thoroughly as possible. I think that most have welcomed, and will readily continue to welcome, those valuable opportunities and to make valuable contributions in their turn.

Joe

Banjo: Why did parents send their kids to the same schools where they knew abuse occurred?

Because prior to the 80's it was considered a Mortal Sin to send your kids to a State School & a venial Sin to engage in casual conversation with an OPD, Not so much an Anglian.

'What about the girls', will parishioners get further inquiry into the abuse of the girls and other females?

Our Class had a reunion a few years ago & Abuse was one of the things we talked about. Apparently the Girls had it tough off the Nuns. They got the cuts for speaking to boys, any boys, running, wrong notes on the piano or keyboard & apparently, Insolence. Nothing Sexual.

There used to be a rumour that the Monsieur was having it off with the lady behind the Church. It wasn't until after we left School we found out that it was a lad in our Class. He ran away from home as soon as we finished Grade 10 & later we heard he committed suicide. We never knew why. Family condoned?

WTF this got to do with Integration. Thanks for the Deflection Foxy. Any comment the Post I gave?

Dear Jayb,

I presume that you're referring to Nick Saffran's
anti-Muslim article in "The Federalist?"

I did read it. Mr Saffran is presenting the typical
ultra-conservative American viewpoint. We've heard
all the arguments previously many times.
I imagine that President Trump would also be a
supporter of the AEI (American Enterprise Institute)
where Nick Saffran worked as a research assistant.

Jayb,

"Because prior to the 80's it was considered a Mortal Sin to send your kids to a State School & a venial Sin to engage in casual conversation with an OPD, Not so much an Anglian."

That's a good one, are you trying to outdo Paul as the Forum's funnyman?

Banjo,

I'll be delighted to answer your questions as soon as you give a few references.

Foxy: I presume that you're referring to Nick Saffran's anti-Muslim article in "The Federalist?"

That's the one.

Foxy: We've heard all the arguments previously many times.

Well, if you're right, you're right, eh. What he says is right on the money, you can't deny that. Just because he has a Conservative view point & at one time worked for the AEI. So what?

Do I discount "everything" you say just because you support the moslims take over of Australia, or seem too at least.

I don't support your apology for muslims but I have supported many of your posts. I like to think I am discerning as to what I support & what I don't support, no matter who posts it. Sometimes I agree with something, other times I disagree with something. We all do. Such is the nature of the beast.

Loudmouth (Joe), "..what does 'integration' mean in the context of Australia's multi-ethnic society ?"

It is another of the perfectly good words that have been co-opted by activists and NGOs to serve their purposes.

Those valued values, culture and traditions you talk of are discounted and even despised by the leftist social engineers.

Now if you would like to be be seen as progressive and enthuse about feminist Islam you might be heard.

Look how happy they are,
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/gabby-aossey/muslims-are-the-true-feminists_b_9877692.html

Whereas critics of Islam like this woman should be hissed at, talked over and not heard. She is obviously dangerous. Salon and moral equivalence says so,

http://www.salon.com/2014/04/20/ayaan_hirsi_ali_and_the_dangerous_anti_islamic_logic_of_the_war_on_terror/

Islam criticism alert!!

Quick, hose the previous post down with meaningless platitudes. Platitudinous, your cue, one step forward please.

Will someone get one of those stock posters of a RC priest to trample and burn as a diversion?

Dear Jayb,

Such is the nature of the beast, indeed.

People of good will can have different opinions and
still not be coming from a place of malice.

Is Mise: That's a good one, are you trying to outdo Paul as the Forum's funnyman?

No, not really. Gee's, that'd be a hard to do.

I do remember being told that if we passed an OPD Church (Methodist, Presbyterian, AOG, etc.). We had to cross the road & look the other way. If it was a C of E Church we had to stop, Bless ourselves & say a prayer to bring them back to Be Catholics.

We lived in Ayr. Mum was asked to sing for a friends Wedding. She practiced in the C of E Church in Ayr. The Wedding was in the Cathedral in Townsville. Just before the Wedding she had a practise, singing "Ave Maria" with the Big Organ. The Gardiner raced up the stairs & grabbed her bodily & dragged her out of the Cathedral. Screaming, "We'll have none of those Catholic songs sung in the High Church of England. I don't care what you do down in Ayr." (Low Church of England). I was only about 10 at the time, but I still remember it. (71)

Such were the Days of our Lives. Back then.

At least it wasn't a mosque , the water basin attendant would do a FGM and caning on bare feet.

Jayb,

No wonder they call it "The Deep North"!!

Is Mise,
The questions are mine, after the weekend reading about the Royal Commission into child sexual abuse. Prompted by a newspaper article on Saturday.

For one that has knowledge about the various branches of the catholic church, I expect that you may have followed the hearings and reports closely.

In case you did not, here is a link.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-02-06/royal-commission-into-child-sexual-abuse-begins-in-sydney/8242600

It is a good place to start to inform yourself about the whole sordid and sorry mess. But be warned, there are thousands of pages, reports, articles, books, films, and other material to wade through.. And this report only deals with Australia and there are many countries involved. It is mind boggling.

I am just glad that my father-in-law did not live to see the report as he would have been heart broken and died of shame to think those in his church could do such things. I am sure many Catholics will leave the church in disgust.

Foxy,

I am still waiting for you to answer the question with something other than a vague motherhood statement.

More from the Law:
"The report, “Unequal and Unprotected: Women’s Rights Under Lebanon’s Religious Personal Status Laws,” found that, across all religions, laws erect greater barriers for women than men who wish to terminate abusive marriages,.
“I forced myself to bear beyond what a human being can take, all the injustices and violence,” said Mireille, a (Christian) Maronite woman who endured years of physical abuse ..
Christian laws impact women differently and disproportionately. . And although spousal violence is grounds for desertion, short of attempted murder it is insufficient to end a ( Christian) marriage quickly. "

SM,

I am still waiting for an apology from you Sir
for calling me an "anti-Semitic racist" on another
thread.

Foxy,

I apologise for for implying that you were an anti semite racist.

What I intended to say was that linking to a clearly anti semetic sites casts you in a similar light.

With respect to this thread I brought up one instance of an Islamic cleric who defended beating women, and you have wiggled out of any criticism of the cleric, first by heavily criticising the catholic church, as if that excused the behaviour of the Islamic Cleric, then by issuing vague motherhood statements.

I have not brought up the other abuses of women such as the many FGM cases in Aus or the force marriage of minors to much older men etc, just this one instance.

Do you condone the Australian Muslim cleric that defended the Koranic right of a husband to beat his wife?

He's got the right to condone it and Koran has the right to teach it.
Germans don't have the right to teach Nazism and Oz nearly didn't have the right to be communist 70 years ago as in US . We have the right to condemn his condoning or to agree. He can condemn our condemning his condoning.

Dear Shadow Minister,

Thank You so much for your apology. It means a great deal
to me coming from you - a person whose opinions as I've
stated previously - I do respect.

As for the Muslim cleric K. Trad's statements?
Of course I do not support them. However,
Mr Trad has released a statement categorically
condemning all violence against women. I believe
he claims to have been misunderstood.

However, be that as it may,- I again repeat -
of course I do not support
violence against women - not matter what the source
may be. And I do not support Trad's previous statements.
I thought that I made it quite clear that
those who do support those actions or follow
those kind of teachings literally, should receive the
full force of our laws.

Thank you.

SM
Now that your q has been answered , will you equally oppose judicial and Church defence and practice of violence against women and girls

Okay - next step in the long process of recognition of Muslim women's rights:

What might be the answers from Muslim clerics to the questions:

Should women always obey their husbands ?

Another one: Should women always come 'to the bed' when asked to by their husband ?

And others:

Should women be allowed out of the house without a male relative as escort ?

Should women be allowed to get their driver's licence ?

Should women be allowed to vote, and vote as they wish ?

Should women be allowed to study what they like ?

Should women inherit an equal share with their brother ?

Should women have equal and same rights to divorce their husbands, and get an equitable share of the break-down of assets ?

Etc. Etc., but that's enough for the next couple of decades. Maybe, by then, Australian feminists will have turned their attention to these issues, too. No, don't ask for too much.

Joe

Perhaps the women could be allowed to have opinions about their own faith. Aboriginals had to be white Saxon Christians. Do Arab women?

Foxy: People of good will can have different opinions and still not be coming from a place of malice.

Of course they can. Even though we have differences it doesn't mean I don't love you as a friend.

Is Mise: No wonder they call it "The Deep North"!!

No, it was like that all over. My 2nd. wife was HCofE & she copped a barreling over marrying a Catholic from her rellies. (Brisbane but from Tasmania) She was unfaithful therefore I ditched her. Two in a row for the same reason is not a good look.

Banjo: he would have been heart broken and died of shame to think those in his church could do such things.

Just wait until the investigation is all over & the OPD's, Scouts & Guides, Government Orphanages have been fully looked at.

Banjo: I am sure many Catholics will leave the church in disgust.

I don't think so. Will the Southern Baptists & Charismatics be leaving in droves when they get found out. Oh, that's right. They weren't really SB or C, eh? Strange how that happens.

Question. We haven't heard from Iftikhar or any of his ideas on how Islam will Integrate into Australian Culture. I hope I didn't frighten him off.

No comment, apart from Foxy's, on Saffran article, or the new lone wolf again part of the Islamis Pack operating around Young. I remember 20 years ago the Authorities caught an Islamic Group training for Jihad in the Young area & one around Ogange too. Or, the Separate Country with-in Australia for moslims. Why is that? Touchy, touchy, I guess.

"Perhaps the women could be allowed to have opinions about their own faith. Aboriginals had to be white Saxon Christians. Do Arab women?"

Profound words, Nick. I think, but I'm not quite sure. Do you mean (God, what a silly question: Nick meaning anything) that the rights of women will depend on what culture or religion they are attached to ? That women's rights can be dictated by their culture or their religion ? i.e. by the men in those cultures or religions ? I'm sure that many men would love it that way.

So is there some tension between 'Australian values' and multiculturalism ? Does 'Australian values' take it for granted that Muslim women have as many rights as Muslim men, and as any other Australian, including women - while 'multiculturalism' may be interpreted as dictating that women 'in a culture' have only the rights dictated by that 'culture' ?

Appalling. No. We must declare that people can privately hold whatever views they like, but in Australia, all people have the approval to exercise equal rights, etc. Let culture and religion take a back seat, while their adherents analyse their defects.

In short, people should have freedom of religion, but no right to enforce any backward rules on anybody else. In other words, freedom to believe but no right to put those beliefs into practice if they conflict with 'Australian values'. Sounds fine to me.

Joe

It's interesting to read all the various opinions on
this forum about the rights of/or lack of -
Muslim women in this country.
Perhaps we should ask the women themselves
who are experienced with those issues what their
opinions are.

Here's one woman attempting to do precisely
that:

http://rightnow.org.au/opinion-3/the-challenges-of-being-a-muslim-woman-in-a-multicultural-society/

Dunno wot you mean Joe , do you?
Australian values are not the same as the Law. Mature women can choose who they marry and we can't presume that anyone forces anything .But women's refuges are chocka with ocker sheilas.

Dearest Foxy,

Thank you for that brilliant article:

http://rightnow.org.au/opinion-3/the-challenges-of-being-a-muslim-woman-in-a-multicultural-society/

Yes, it's a very difficult path that Muslim women have to travel. I certainly wish them well. And I don't really care what they wear, they can't really hide their beauty and grace, but at least for a lech like me, I know it's 'hands off'.

Nick,

Is that a yes or a no ?

Cheers,

Joe

Joe
English suits me fine and I'll keep writing it , I mean it.

There is much hullabaloo about integration. The purpose is foul i.e. just to target Muslims. Nothing is being said about the Hindoos or Sikhs who just like Muslims wish to preserve their thousands of year old tried and tested culture.

About integration one can ask as to which society is integrated in Britain ? If Britain is so integrated then why do we see the " Clash of civilisations" spill out in the streets of British cities in most violent form. We can see or hear about the misdeeds of such civilisation, during almost every weekend, in many towns and cities of Britain.

Does anyone remember the clash of Mrs Thatcher's civilisation with that of Mr. Arthur Scargill's at mine heads of Yorkshire? Does this and mountain of other evidences, not prove that Britain is not an integrated society?

Here is another example. An English colleague of a Muslim confided to him that how lucky were Muslims. He said that all of you Muslims may or may not go to Paradise in the next life, but the way I see you lot, you have Paradise here on earth. Asked to explain this, he said that while you are here at work you have utterly no worry as to what your wife must be doing at home. Also while you are at work your wife has no worries about you, and every bit confidant that you may be not be flirting with some female colleague at work but busy doing your days work.

He confided that a majority of us English do not get such peace of mind. In fact most of our life is spent in turmoil and worries.
So who will be prepared to trade peaceful life for life full of turmoil by integrating ?

The following are some thoughts based upon valuable experiences of a learned person who happens to be a Medical doctor.

The British government is again asking us ,Muslims, to adopt the" British values" and to integrate fully into the British way of life

But many so called "British values" are not acceptable to us.
We would like to confirm again that we practising Muslim believers will never ever adopt or integrate into all these "destructive and immoral values":

-Sexual immorality,sleeping around,affairs,adultery and fornication,illegitimacy,teenage pregnancy, immoral sex education,pills and condoms and Morning after-pill to every one? ( the contraceptive mentality).
-Sexually immoral programmes and messages daily on all TV and many radio channels and in magazines and newspapers.
- The legalisation of homosexuality and homosexual practices(gays and lesbians).
-the culture of death: killing every day 600 innocent unborn babies through abortion..and the killing of our old sick patients after stopping food and fluid to make them die from starvation and dehydration(Mental capacity Bill).
-Alcoholic drinks and drug abuse which are causing hellish problems in all sectors in our society.
-Yob culture
-Gender-bending:women becoming like men and vice versa.
-Disrespect for motherhood and full time mothers.
-Broken families and neglect of elderly parents who are suffering and dying alone.
-Unjust campaign of "Death and destruction" on concocted pretext.

Let us all: people from all faiths(Islam,Christianity...) and from all nationalities: ADOPT FULLY THE DIVINE HUMANE SAFE HEALTHY AND ECONOMICALLY BENEFICIAL VALUES :
*Morality,Chastity and fidelity,heterosexuality.
*Clean safe media.
*The Sacredness of life/Culture of life(no abortion,no assisted suicide and no Euthanasia).
*Avoidance of poisons(alcohol and drugs).
*Clear,natural,healthy,different genders,procreation/full time mothers.
*Healthy,stable extended families with care and love to our weak old parents.
*Peace,not wars.
*No occupation of any one else's land.

Thank GOD,our Christian friends and believers and many other sensible people in our society, do share with us almost all these DIVINE values.
We know it's right,so let's do it.

*Peace,not wars.
*No occupation of any one else's land.
Islam....

Hi Nick,

You beat me to it :)

Hi Iftikhar,

So, where is 'Arabia' ? How much country did Arabs invade in the first few hundred years of Islam ? I wouldn't want to suggest that there was anything unusual about invading, it's what every rising power did, right up until, well, 2003 at least.

But please don't come the raw prawn and claim that Arabs or Islam in general are somehow unique in not invading other people's lands. How did Arabs (i.e. Palestinians) get hold of Palestine, for example, except by invading it ?

Pot and kettle. Chickens coming home etc. :)

Cheers,

Joe

Iftikhar: Nothing is being said about the Hindoos or Sikhs who just like Muslims wish to preserve their thousands of year old tried and tested culture.

That’s true, but they are not a danger to the Culture & Country to which they have immigrated, unlike Islam.

Iftikhar: If Britain is so integrated then why do we see the " Clash of civilisations" spill out in the streets of British cities in most violent form.

True, but why is it always moslems demanding a Caliphate & The British saying “NO” to a Caliphate & Halal. Moslems are not integrating they want to envelop & destroy. If Western Values are so bad why are so many moslems leaving the Islamic lands for the West? A better life under Western freedoms. Freedom's that you want to destroy & turn into a State just like the ones you fled. Strange that.

Ifitikhar: An English colleague of a Muslim confided to him that how lucky were Muslims.

That, I would say is a bald face lie. Western men trust their wives. Unlike moslems men. I remember one prominent Somali Imam saying would you leave your front door open when you leave on business. He was explaining why Somali moslems stich their wives Vulvas up with Acacia thorns when they leave the house. It’s also the explains why Islamic fighters take their wives into battle because if they leave them at home their neighbour will rape them. Then they would have to kill their wives when they came home for being unfaithful.

Ifitikhar: We would like to confirm again that we practising Muslim believers will never ever adopt or integrate into all these "destructive and immoral values":

Then I suggest moslems stay well away from all Western Countries. All moslems should pack up go back to the ME where you all get along so well.

Ifitikhar are you ignoring me? Why haven’t you answered the questions I asked of you many discussions ago. That’s very rude, you know. Afraid?

It is easy to say" Go back to where you came from", but do not forget that British Muslims are actually born and educated here. They are in the unenviable position of trying to combine two different worlds. That is no easy. We do not want to change you lot but we would like to see our children getting balanced Islamic education along with National Curriculum. We would like our children to learn and be well versed in standard English to follow the National Curriculum and go for higher studies and research to serve humanity. At the same time we would like our children to learn and be well versed in Arabic, Urdu and other community languages to keep in touch with their cultural roots and enjoy the beauty of their literature and poetry. A Muslim is a citizen of this tiny global village. He/she does not want to become notoriously monolingual Brit. Bilingualism is an asset but British schooling regards it as a problem.

A report by the Institute for Community Cohesion found that native parents were deserting some schools after finding their children out numbered by pupils from ethnic minorities. Schools in parts of England are becoming increasingly segregated. The study focused on 13 local authorities. Many of the schools and colleges are segregated and this was generally worsening over recent years. This is RACISM because British society is the home of institutional racism. My statement regarding Muslim schools where there is no place for non-Muslim child or a teacher is based on educational process and not on racism. Muslim children need Muslim teachers during their developmental periods. For higher studies and research, Muslim teacher is not a priority.
IA
http://www.londonschoolofislamics.org.uk

Well we could ask an Islamic government to fund schools for just Christians and pay Christian teachers . The school at Mecca for English Christians comes to mind.

Loudmouth "Let culture and religion take a back seat, while their adherents analyse their defects."

But nobody thinks *their* ways are defective. Otherwise, they would live differently.

That's why our old "evil" (i.e. wise) immigration policy restricted entry to people off similar cultures.

Hi Shockadelic,

'Culture and religion' in relation to human rights, is what I meant.

No, I'm confident that many migrants and refugees have the capacity to reflect on their new situation and the rights and obligations that go with living in Australia, and compare it, eventually, to the situations in their homelands. Hopefully, they will come to see the value of Australian values (often dishonoured in the breach) of equality of all before the same law, democracy, merit-based opportunity, etc.

Oops, I forgot about some more recent invasions:

* Russia's invasion of Georgia;

* Russia's invasion of the Crimea;

* Russia's invasion of the Ukraine;

* Turkey's invasion of parts of northern Iraq and Syria, and of Kurdistan.

I'm sure there have been others, Ethiopia's invasion of Somalia perhaps, China's 'invasion' of international territory in the south China Sea, Saudi Arabia in the Yemen.

Can we talk of the invasion by Buddhists in Burma of Rohingya territory, i.e.Arakan/Rakhine State ?

Wow, it's been a busy decade, hasn't it ?

Joe

Ifitikhar: It is easy to say" Go back to where you came from", but do not forget that British Muslims are actually born and educated here. They are in the unenviable position of trying to combine two different worlds.

That's why I say, even though they were born in Britain, they do not belong there. An Ancient Ideology & the Modern World cannot co-exist in the same space. The only choice is to upgrade or leave. Moslims don't want that.

Islam want the entire World to go back to a time before the 7th. Century. Living in Mud huts & Great Castles, Slavery, Domination, Executions, Bestiality, Rape, No Music or Dancing, Forced Child Marriages, FMG, Wives & Children being just Property, Endless War between factions, Living on a flat Earth & watching the Sun travel around the Earth.

What a wonderful life that would be for moslims.

No, moslims around the World should all migrate back to the Middle East, where they can live in their Peaceful Paradise. That would be nice, thank you.

loudmouth: Can we talk of the invasion by Buddhists in Burma of Rohingya territory, i.e.Arakan/Rakhine State ?

The Rohingya peoples are an Indian People that migrated to Burma (Myanmar) on the breakup of the Indian Subcontinent. (Pakistan, India, Bangladesh) They are in Myanmar illegally in the first place. The Burmese have been trying to get them to leave since 1947. It's "not" an invasion of Rohingya Territory.

Hi Jayb,

No, I don't think so: that part of Burma has been populated by Muslims since at least the sixteenth century. As I understand it, Arakan was part of a principality or sultanate extending from what is now Bangla Desh.

So, I guess Rohingya have been in that part of Burma, minding their own business, for about twice as long as us whites have been here in Australia.

Cheers,

Joe

Loudmouth: I don't think so: that part of Burma has been populated by Muslims since at least the sixteenth century.

That maybe so but they were a very small Group. The Rohingya fled from Bangladesh to Burma in 1947. They are not native Burmese. They should return to Bangladesh & stop causing trouble in Burma.

It's the same everywhere in the World, when the moslims build up they cause trouble for the native Population then blame the native Population if they push back.

The same as is happening in the UK, Europe & now here. Best to stop the rot before it takes hold.

State schools with non-Muslim monolingual teachers have been responsible for the culturally and linguistically genocide of the Muslim children for the last sixty years. Muslim community has lost three generations and the fourth one is in the process of loosing its Identity which is crucial for mental, emotional and personality development.

Who says that Europeans are civilised. They are the most savage people in the world. They are guilty of massacre during the time of Crusade in Jerusalem. They not only slaughtered Arab Muslims but also Arab Christians and Jews. They massacred American Indians in millions. They slaughtered Aborigines who welcomed them in the first place. British massacred millions of Indian Muslims after the War of Independence in 1857. Millions of their children were converted to Christianity by the Christian Missionaries.

You better teach your children in your own schools and let migrant communities teach their children according to their needs and demands. There are hundreds of state primary and secondary schools where Muslim pupils are in majority. In my opinion all such schools may be opted out to become Muslim Academies. This mean the Muslim children will get a decent education. Muslim schools turned out balanced citizens, more tolerant of others and less likely to succumb to criminality or extremism. Muslim schools give young people confidence in who they are and an understanding of Islam’s teaching of tolerance and respect which prepares them for a positive and fulfilling role in society. Muslim schools are attractive to Muslim parents because they have better discipline and teaching Islamic values. Children like discipline, structure and boundaries. Bilingual Muslim children need Bilingual Muslim teachers as role models during their developmental periods, who understand their needs and demands.
IA
http://www.londonschoolofislamics.org.uk

Ifitkhar: They are guilty of massacre during the time of Crusade in Jerusalem.

& vici Versa. Then again, the Christian Crusades were only trying to get back lands that were stolen off them by the moslims. Weren’t they? How many hundreds of thousands of Christians, Jews & other religions were massacred by the Islamic Heathens from around 700 to 1200AD. What happened to the Jews in Medina? Now that’s what you would call treachery.

Jayb: Islam want the entire World to go back to a time before the 7th. Century. I forgot to mention;
All illness is caused by Bad Gins. All the women get to wear a bag over their heads. No woman is allowed out without her Husband or a male relative in tow for fear of being raped by a friend. Women are only worth half as much as a man. (Testimony, Inheritance. Etc.) Women aren’t allowed to go to the Doctor if the husband say they can’t & the Doctor can only examine a woman by looking in a mirror. If you fail to turn up to the mosque the Religious Police will get you sent to jail, or shoot you. What a wonderful Religion.

Ifitkhar: You better teach your children in your own schools and let migrant communities teach their children according to their needs and demands.

& all they get taught is the koran. It’s no wonder Islam & moslims are so backward.

Ifitkhar: Muslim schools turned out balanced citizens, more tolerant of others and less likely to succumb to criminality or extremism.

Yes, I can see that. Telford & the Riots in Manchester & other Cities, etc. are a great example. Demanding Sharia & the Caliphate, Down with Democracy, No go areas. No, no criminality or extremism there, eh.

Ifitkhar: Children like discipline, structure and boundaries.

Yes, I’ve seen the children getting run over by a truck. Now, that’s what I call discipline.

You’re still being very rude & not answering any of my questions from previous discussions. Is that one of the marvellous Islamic traits?

"State schools with non-Muslim monolingual teachers have been responsible for the culturally and linguistically genocide of the Muslim children for the last sixty years."
So did you take your Muslim children to a Christian English country ?
Shame on you for destroying their lives when they should be with IS in Iraq learning about plastic explosives.

As teenagers across Birmingham are due to receive their GCSE results on Thursday, latest Department for Education statistics show that three Muslim schools in the city featured among the top 20 results last summer.

Al-Burhan Grammar School, run from Spring Road Centre in Acocks Green, had 100 per cent of its pupils attaining at least five GCSEs grades A*-C including maths and English.

Head teacher Dr Mohammad Nasrullah said: "At Al-Burhan Grammar School for Girls we strive to equip our students with the knowledge, the skills and the values which will serve them best as individuals throughout their life in this world and in the hereafter.

"We do this by offering a traditional grammar school education, supported by impressive computer technology, delivered in an Islamic environment."
And Al-Furqan Community College in Tyseley, which is also for Muslim girls, came second in the league table.

The independent school last year saw all of its pupils gaining at least five GCSEs at grades A*-C including maths and English - a staggering 27 per cent increase compared to 2013 when 73 per cent of pupils achieved the same benchmark standard.

Meanwhile, coming 14th on the list of top schools was Darul Uloom Islamic High School in Small Heath where 81 per cent of its pupils achieved at least five GCSEs at grades A*-C including maths and English.

The school describes itself as being "specialised", providing a "balance of traditional Islamic education and national curriculum subjects".

The school, set up 30 years ago, says it "aims for students to enjoy learning, achieve high standards in both Islamic and national curriculum subjects, to achieve and exceed individual potential and to build confidence within students to become valuable and active members of the community at large".
Last year, Birmingham schools performed better than the national average, with 55.9 per cent of pupils achieving at least five GCSEs at grades A*-C including maths and English compared to 53.4 per cent across England.

The King Edward VI chain of state grammar schools proved to be an unstoppable force, with five being placed in the city's top 20.

Your copying doesn't help you much - the non-Islamic schools did as well as Islamic schools. Then Islamic teachers are not superior. So there's no basis for compelling mixed schools to submit to the will of Pakistan. Peaceful Pakistan where bombs drown out kids chanting from Mr Muhammed the one-man voice of a god.

Iftikhar,

The point of integration is not that you are forced to accept the western way of living, but that you accept the rules of the country and that every one else will live as they please.

Iftikhar, you are repeating yourself. These posts are exactly the same as the ones you posted in the 04/2013 & another lot of Posts in 2014. I keep a record of your posts. A very slight rewording is the only difference. Broken Record?

I hope you are taking notes Foxy. This Imam & Teacher of the koran (http://www.londonschoolofislamics.org.uk) is one of your so called moderates. He believes that Integration means that all the British people have to adopt Islam & everything that goes with their Ideology, weather they like it or not. It doesn't mean that moslems will integrate into British Culture.

The Moderates in Australia believe that integration mean that all Australians must adopt Islam & everything that goes with their Ideology, weather they like it or not, eventually. Frightening isn't it?

Dear Jayb,

I can't speak on anyone else's behalf.

I can only say that the people that I do know personally
do not hold the views that you claim they do.

It was extremely horrifying to see a photo in an Oz magazine promoting Australian national costume . A woman from Austria , our motherland, wants boys to wear the Alpine leather pants with shoulder straps . The rot has started.

Banjo,

Sorry to have taken so long to answer but have been on the road a lot and am sending this from Inverell Public Library, I hope to get home around midnight tonight.

I can only speak from experience.

I attended a Marist Brothers' school and in the nine years that I was there I only knew of one instance of paedophilia, we kids called the offender "Old Slobber Lips" and he was swiftly removed when we complained to our parents.
The particular Brother left the Order and later married, had children of his own and, by all accounts led a blameless life.

I and many other Catholic parents sent/send their children to the same schools as we knew that the chances of molestation were less than in State schools.

The great inquiry into State schools is yet to come as, undoubtedly, there will be an enquiry into Catholic Girls Schools.

Will more Catholics leave their church as a result of the Inquiry?

They shouldn't as the actions of the traitors within their Faith has nothing to do with the truth or otherwise of their religion.

Dear Is Mise,

Being a Catholic myself, I agree with the point you
are making. The actions of a few should not demonise
an entire religion. Although the church's failure to
deal with it effectively has done immeasurable damage
to the victims. The cover-ups, the protection of abusive
clergy and the refusal to admit egregious mistakes are
unjustifiable.

I wonder if Muslims feel the same way about their religion?
The ones I've spoken to apparently do.

Foxy the video's below are what the Islamists have in mind for Australia. Regardless of how the moderate or progressive feel when the percentage reaches a certain number those people will be intimidated into supporting the hard liners. They will be given no choice. Once the hardliners have the support of those moderates the rest will fall into line. That's what happens in real life.

Here’s the cold hard truth. http://100percentfedup.com/wow-refugees-exposed-heres-the-cold-hard-truth-the-media-wont-tell-youif-saudi-arabia-is-refusing-to-accept-them-because-they-are-a-national-security-threat-why-are-we-accepti/

Islamic Sharia Law Comes to Great Britain.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IICjsnAQVRc

Muslim Sharia Law in Australia.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iN7eQyrDt-U

Call for an Islamic State in Australia.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6uRMdHn25g

Current Affair interview: Uthman Badar,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZChhgVAyvs

What drives moslim anger.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHV1b33-vdo

Islam radicalisation of Australian children.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NIm9PfiHok

This is the type of school our moderate friend Ifitkhar would set up all over Australia. What then?

Muslims in the West are not asking for Sharia to be the law of the land. The Law of the land is the only law applicable and executable in affairs of the individuals.

All they are seeking is to let Sharia be available as an alternative to resolve their spousal and contractual disputes between two individuals. That is their prerogative. Indeed, every human, no matter who it is, goes first to their family members and friends for seeking solutions to their problem some will go to their clergy (all religions) and some will appoint a mediator.

When Muslims go to their clergy, he or she will look up similar situations in the past and guide the couple or business partners to find a solution, since the immigrant Muslims are familiar with the Sharia laws, they may accept it, and if they do, that is good for them.

The problem is that of trust – when the parties agree to the terms per their Imam/clergy, and don’t abide by it, there is no way the aggrieved party can seek damages for the violations. This is what Muslims are asking, to make that binding.

Indeed, it would be binding if they go to the judge and say, we have agreed to these terms and conditions per our religious conviction, and seek the judge to sign the order and the court order becomes executable. The judge looks to it as mediator resolved decision and signs it and it will become executable. The right wing Americans are downright stupid and making a bid deal about this, as if Sharia will become the law of the land.

What Muslims have is Personal Sharia, that is a private relationship between the individual and God. How they pray, worship, fast, pay zakat, how they bury their individuals, marry per the requirement as a religious rite. All of that is a private matter and does not need any regulation or execution

Iftikhar,

The rules of the country take precedence at all times, the only time that Sharia would be observed in the courts would be if both parties were prepared to stand up in court and swear to agree with it. This would still not stand in custody and child support cases where the family court ignores any contracts.

As Sharia disadvantages women, in a divorce, Sharia would only apply if the wife stands up in court and agrees to all the terms.

Foxy "I can only say that the people that I do know personally
do not hold the views that you claim they do."

And the people you know don't drive trucks into crowds either.

But some Muslims do, and they do so *because* they're Muslim and we're Infidels.

The more Muslims among the Infidels, the more there are to act out their domination fantasies.
More Muslims = Increased risk. A risk that is preventable.

Give em an inch and they will take a mile.
Don't give them any concessions, you are only giving them room to move to push their beliefs to the next level.

http://www.infowars.com/you-look-like-pork-shock-video-shows-muslim-man-racially-abusing-victim/

We must keep in mind that the religiously-minded
modern person is not a 'card-carrying' fundamentalist.
The latter are a tiny minority. Of whatever faith,
a psychologist would be likely to declare them to be
of unsound mind.

Foxy: We must keep in mind that the religiously-minded modern person is not a 'card-carrying' fundamentalist. The latter are a tiny minority.

Not really so tiny. They are only quite while they are small in number. Once they increase their number, they will comply with whatever the 'Card-carrying' fundamentalists of their faith demand of them. Otherwise they will be killed as well.

We have recently seen that call from the 'Card-carrying' fundamentalists in Europe to the faithful in Australia to rise up & kill the moderate Imams in Australia. They demand this because to them, being moderate is Haram.

For all moslims their first loyalty is to Islam & Allah, nothing else.

My wish for the future is that more people undertake to get to know Muslims in their community by making a determined effort to invite them into their homes. Make a date and just do it.

Hopefully Muslims will reciprocate. Of course they will.

Even if that means that Aussies and Muslims share their common tradition of having all of the men at one end of the garden for the BBQ and the women and kids are well away at the other end, or in the lounge.

Next problem, it is going to have to be OK to have different drinks and some different food alternatives. Fellas, I don't mind your excessively smokey cooking and results, but you are going to have to smile as I chomp down on some crackling pork belly maybe. One day you too might chew and wonder about the weird things that go into a pork sausage and that is very little pork. Too easy.

Sharia law? Forget it forever. It isn't our way, no good for all sorts of reasons (and some of the Muslim world thinks the same) and that is it, final.

HRC and the other botherers and troublemakers? Get rid of them and apply the tax money to better purposes. What about parks and better transport?

The Muslims themselves don't want the feds importing more fundamentalists from certain regions and countries for 'diversity's' sake, or for any reason. They don't want the economic migrants either.

Well you haven't read Sharia law, you'll see how it talks about equality for woman, which was something revolutionary in 600 AD. brutality to women? there are more laws protecting women. I just think Sharia is misunderstood and the word is used in a derogatory manner way too often.

Sharia is a moral and religious code which affects everything from a believer's personal hygiene to diet and finance. In terms of the latter, it prohibits acceptance of specific interest (known as riba) or fees for loans of money, whether the payment is fixed or floating. To comply with Sharia, any loan must be Qard (free of profit)'. This therefore excludes student loans, which accrue interest (albeit, at a very low rate, equivalent to the rate of inflation).

There is not a strictly codified uniform set of laws that can be called Sharia. It is considered a system of several laws, based on the Qur'an, Hadith and centuries of debate, interpretation and precedent. Attempts to implement Sharia law have been met with opposition globally. There is no consensus between Islamic schools of thought on how far-reaching Sharia law should be.

In Islam, I would like to tell that we don't have any conflicts between science and our religion. On the contrary, many of new science theories proves that our holy book 'Quran' must be from Allah, this is because it tells us with science facts that has been discovered only recently. Although Quran is from 14 centuries, it has many signs that earth is spherical, in addition is has signs about the Big Bang theory of the universe creation, in addition it has many science facts about the stages of women pregnancy and how the child is created, and a lot of other things that tell us that the Quran must be from the God.
IA
http://www.londonschoolofislam...

Islam falsely claims it is from the same source as the law of Moses. Muhamed had no interest in personal restraint such as not being greedy , the 10th Commandment of Moses. He never mentions love as Jesus did . Jewish women had more liberty and status than Koran.
There were restraints on Israel's wars , limited to just that land . Muhamed wanted war everywhere against Jesus teaching.
The spherical world was known by Greeks and is indicated in Jewish texts long before the one-man outlier Muhamed. It takes twisted maths to claim the Koran describes the solar system .

Nick,

"Islam falsely claims it is from the same source as the law of Moses"

Not quite right, the code that Muhammad left to his followers was copied mainly from the Jewish writings.

Is Mise, "the same source"= God.

To quote Iftikhar: "many of new science theories proves that our holy book 'Quran' must be from Allah"

Then there was much that Allah handed to Muhammad that was the same as that which was given to the Jews, I'd suggest that plagiarism played a great part.

iftikha, "you'll see how [Islam] talks about equality for woman"

Abdel-Magied tried that on in Australia recently and this was the common response world-wide,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9P7iD4z_O2w&t=1s

Ayaan Hirsi Ali on Converting Muslims to Christianity,. A good, workable option if only the lunar left regressives the 'White Knight' apologists for Islam could wake up to themselves,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rzkfULTtxo

Hi Iftikhar,

So, under Shari'a, in what fields of law do women have equal rights to men: family law, property law, marriage law, human rights law, etc. ? Who is supposed to obey whom ? Who has custody of children after a divorce ? Should women have an equal and unfettered right to drive, or to ride bicycles ?

In what ways are women equal to men, under Shari'a ?

Joe

" I'd suggest that plagiarism played a great part."
Mohamed's dad was an "allah" meaning "father" . And there were Jews and Christians in Arabia in 6-7th century with their books , probably Mo had a couple of those in the cave where the voices told him the Kuran. Maybe 1 Jewish text and 1 gospel ?
"My name is Mohamed and my allah owns the Bank of Arabia , with unused millions of dollars insurance lottery prophets ".

Hi Nick,

Yes, it's possible that very early Islam sprang from s Jewish or Judeo-Christian sect - and one based far closer to settled parts of Syria and Paleatine: the first Muslim coins, minted in the late seventh century, had a picture of Muhammad (or whoever the leader was at the time) with a cross above his head, and were in Syriac.

So it's possible that the first 'Islamic' texts were written in Syriac, which gave rise to mistranslations from one language without the diacritica (the marks above and below consonants signifying vowel sounds) to another without diacritica, or different (unwritten) vowel sounds. Of course, this raises the theoretical possibility that, if Allah was supposed to pass on sacred texts to Muhammad copied unchanged from the Book up in paradise, then they were in Syriac: that Allah spoke Syriac.

Hence the confusion in translating from Syriac/Aramaic to Arabic, for instance, between the words for 'white (or white-breasted) raisins', and 'white-breasted virgins'.

After all, who lived and worked across that part of the world before Muhammad's time ? Syriac (or Aramaic)-speaking townspeople, usually either Christian or Jewish traders and artisans, while the Arabic-speaking tribal people lived out in the deserts. There WAS life in that part of the world before Muhammad, or whoever the mythical figure was (or figures were). And their common language would have been Syriac or Aramaic, as it still is in many parts of what is now Syria.

Cheers,

Joe