Since time in memorial, there's been an ever present assertion of police corruption bubbling away just under the surface of media recognition, until one day a full blown scandal ensues, and well the rest's history? Just how corrupt are Australia's Government Agencies?

Any government facility where it's employees possess a statutory power that's conferred or bestowed upon them, there's always a potential of corrupt conduct occurring. Beginning in local government, where a Developer might attempt to ingratiate themselves by obsequious means, with Council's Town Planners? From my information, that's always been fertile ground for corrupt behaviour.

And our police, who have some extraordinary powers conferred upon them, they're always 'fair game' and open to corrupt practices. From trivial and petty indiscretions, accepting 50% discount from Macca's, KFC, and others. But so too are our Ambo's and Firefighters, they also receive their 50% ? Up to and including serious criminal behaviour.

What about our Politicians at all three echelons? Are any of them actually corrupt? By corrupt I mean:- 'willing to act dishonestly in return for money or personal gain'? What about using government owned or leased facilities, for private or family reasons? Travelling abroad ostensibly for government business, but engaging in private leisure, all at the taxpayers expense? Is this truly corrupt conduct, or is it covered under 'perks of the job, fringe or additional benefits' all part of the job. How positively tough their job must be!

And our revered Judiciary, surely they're all above reproach, our esteemed guardians of the law and justice, all are exemplary, totally irreproachable - or are they? Why is there a pervading stench of immorality exuding from the hallowed chambers of our palaces of justice? I'm too old for gaol, but sufficiently wise to know when to shut my mouth!

O sung su

the heart of man is corrupt. Most conservatives recognize this fact and hence put accountability into place to counter it. The sick leftist ideology only sees the opponents to their failed dogmas as being corrupt. Hence the more socialist in media, universities and Governments we have the more corrupt a society becomes. The Clintons are a prime example of my point. In Australia the Greens, unions and abc are prime examples. They rightly point out corruption in the Catholic church but are totally blind to the corruption in their own hearts. Hence you have thuggery, bribes, lies, false reporting and rewarding by the Labour party and Greens for bad behaviour.

Hi there RUNNER...

Sadly you're right, speaking of the ABC there appears to be an absence of ethical standards of balance, instead there's clear bias, though fervently denied, nevertheless it clearly exists. But so does Radio 2GB overtly conservative and very much to the 'Right'. With respect to the two examples given herein, is what they're doing corrupt, or are they simply exhibiting their Station's political proclivities?

You also cite the 'CLINTON'S, and we're all aware of the adulterous and scandalous behaviour of President Bill CLINTON during his Presidency, with his young female intern? And Mrs CLINTON, the Sec. of State. The many untruths she's accused of telling? And the list goes on and on? Thanks RUNNER - and when you think about it, we're living in a really depressive world.

Dear o sung wu,

I remember having dinner with an Indian ship's captain and his first mate at least a decade ago. It was my shout since he was looking to spend a considerable amount of money with my business at the time. After some good food and wine he asked if I had ever been to India. I had not but he wanted to know my thoughts of his country anyway.

I replied something along the lines that I thought it seemed like a fascinating place but that bribery and corruption seemed like the norm not like Australia. He and the first mate fell about laughing.

When he stopped he asked what on earth did I think I was up to with the dinner. He explained quite rightly that I was attempting to win his business not purely by price and service but also with inducements. I admitted he had a point but I said this was between businesses but that in most cases attempting to bribe a policeman over a traffic stop in Australia just wouldn't wash, unlike India.

He then got serious and said he admitted that there was plenty of street level corruption in India but the corruption in Australia was at the highest level where it was far more insidious than a lowly cop padding a meager wage.

When asked to justify the claim he straight away reeled off a whole bunch of scandals and at the top was the AWB paying bribes to Saddam Hussein. But he also told me of the $4000 cash the had paid on behalf of his company to the local harbour master to smooth his ship's turnaround.

I think most Australians are blind to the high level corruption that seems to go unchecked. Recently it was revealed George Brandis had stacked over a dozen high paying commissioner roles in the Administrative Appeals Tribunial with former Liberal Party candidates, staffers and advisers.
https://www.buzzfeed.com/markdistefano/a-brandis-stack?utm_term=.dgZzQaeae#.aoqQGZnZn

In most other Western countries the would have been an absolute outcry. Not here. Why not? Because it is endemic.

Hi o sung wu,

We should not be so naive to think corruption at all stratum's of society is a thing of the past, Eddie Obeid and others are testimony to that. Corruption can take many forms, from the crass direct payment for favour which is generally the more sensational news worthy type, particularly when it involves those who are best placed to obtain the greatest gain, or are in a position of trust. The other less obvious corruption is the "gift" type, when nothing is directly asked for by the giver, but there is an underlying expectation of future favour. There is a fine line between appreciation and favor.

On the public front we have better mechanisms in place (hopefully) these days to uncover public corruption. The work of the NSW ICAC is a prime example of that. Unfortunately I cannot say that about some other organizations, some unions and some private employers, the HSU and Nathen Tinkler are two examples that have been uncovered, I am sure there are many more yet to be discovered.
We have to be careful as to what powers we give to corruption watch dogs, too much could see them becoming as corrupt as those they are charged with investigating. Too little power could see them becoming toothless tigers. It is that balance of the two that is difficult to achieve.

runner some of the most corrupt people we have had in Australian politics have been conservatives. Corruption knows no political boundaries.

o sung wu,

I read this post paragraph by paragraph with out wanting to see the
author until I had read it all.
Mate it sounded like you and it was you and how right you are in posing the question.
I worked under three bent commissioners and two corrupt premiers in NSW. I even had
an "insider" being carted around by Neville Wran's "bagman" (Malcom Johns a debarred solicitor
outed for business migration fraud) in a
white Rolls collecting the brown paper bags on Friday afternoons. Not mentioning the QLD stink.
I came up here first in the Fitz commission to lock up corrupt coppers and the premier.
We got 78 coppers but missed the 'big fish' himself.
Now there is a re-visitation with "Shorty" Dubois getting the lot over the wipe out of the "Whiskey" affair
We all knew who torched the "Go Go: and it certainly wasn't John Andrew or Jimmy Finch and
we all knew on whose orders it was but that is history now.
I first ran into Dubois and his mate Vincent O'Dempsey back in the "Toe Cutter's" days when they tried
to muscle in the Sydney scene.
People like Jack Murray and John Clark and Brian Appleby (all Toe Cutters) sent them back to QLD
with their tails between their legs.
A nasty piece of work that Deboise was. I can personally account for nine bodies he put in the ground,
three of them in Boggo Road. Vincent O'Dempsey was a follower, short on brains but quick on reactionary violence.
Listed as Det.Insp. Mick Dowie now retired because of age stupidity and one of the best police
brains in the business worked the case well after his forced retirement. A good man now reduced to
running "Crime Stoppers" as a civilian volunteer.

Hi there PAUL1405...

Paul, in your second last paragraph you said therein '...we have to be careful as to what powers we give to the corruption watchdogs...'? Oh how true, how very true! The more statutory power conferred upon an individual, the more chance they may become, targets of corruption.

It's so very easy to let our own personal, as well as our vocational standards and ethics degenerate, by succumbing to the temptation(s) of a highly desirable benefit. The bigger the corrupt gain - the bigger the allurement offered?

Many years ago while still in uniform I was offered an inducement, of such magnitude it took every morsel of personal strength not to yield. Naturally I can't say too much, but it was not money or property. It was 'favours' from the most stunningly beautiful, film star quality, woman one could imagine. What stopped it dead in it's tracks, was my fear of the consequences from an Internal Investigation if I was 'given up', plus gaol, plus loss of my career and my marriage, as I feel sure I'd not be forgiven?

Moreover you're right about political corruption too. Corruption knows no bounds, doesn't follow Party lines? Politicians are awfully powerful, both politically and statutory. I've also alluded too, on several occasions since participating on this Forum, a certain jurists who I'd dearly like to take down, if for no other reason than his/her depraved immorality. However I expect half the Force would be lined up ahead of me to do so, such as the known quantity of his/her criminality. And I've often averred, police may 'know' something quite factually, but can it be proven in a Court of Law?

Hi Chris,

You've probably read Colin Dillon's 'Code of Silence' which has just been published ? The first Indigenous police commissioner in Australia, he put his career (and perhaps his life) very much on the line, in many ways, when he went to the Fitzgerald Commission in 1987 to report corruption across the Queensland Police Force. We need many, many people with that sort of courage and integrity.

But I would respectfully suggest that there are many corrupt Indigenous organisations, although incompetence and sheer gormlessness complicate the picture. Nepotism is rife in (perhaps) most organisations, and there seems to be a common pattern: people seen by governments as having power in their 'communities' are put in charge and no questions asked, or books ever examined. Those people are often both unqualified and incompetent, so they employ non-Indigenous yes-men to do the actual work. If qualified Indigenous staff are ever appointed - people that neither unqualified Blacks nor qualified Whites want around - they are harassed and eventually sacked or forced to resign. Friends and relations of the 'big man' take their place. The organisation flubs along, unchecked and unassessed.

And so it's being going for decades now. Sara Hudson was right in her Review of a sample of a thousand organisations, that a tiny percentage seemed to be audited or overseen in any way, and even fewer seemed to be getting any of the outcomes that they were being paid for. Thirty billion, one would have thought, should go a long way.

Yes, indeed, it does.

Joe

Hi there STEELEREDUX...

India, what a contradiction, is that great Nation! I've only been there twice, the first Bombay and the Goa coast. The second, Calcutta and it's environs, the latter was positively brilliant! The West Bengalis are the worlds greatest debaters without doubt and among the highest educated people on the sub-continent, despite their poverty.

Corruption is endemic in our great country, but why? Do we simply dismiss minor 'kick backs' or the odd benefit as fair game? Is falsifying our tax return, a form of corrupt conduct, or a national (annual) sport? We call a tradie to do a job at home, he gives two amounts at the conclusion of his work, one amount where he'll accept a credit card and he'll issue a receipt? The other strictly cash and no receipt, but at a greatly discounted amount?

STEELEREDUX, do you think it forms part of our Aussie character to offer or accept a benefit to which we're not entitled - after all the government's got plenty, and we pay our taxes don't we. I think most Aussies consider this type of behaviour quite acceptable? Yet we roar with indignation and disapproval when we hear of a politician who's used his position to garner some advantage or material benefit. Or a Company CEO has, through crafty accounting, lost millions of his shareholders money?

I knew of a detective who used to squeeze into his uniform whenever he needed to purchase a new set of tyres, or an expensive part, for his car. Commissioners regulations used to say inter alia; '...a member shall not use his office to obtain any benefit or other advantage as a result of his appointment...' (or similar words). So in order to fully comply with that regulation, he'd wear his uniform. Is this corrupt conduct or cleverly circumventing the Commissioners regulations, do you think ?

I was in the NSW public service at the time of the Greiner Metherall ICAC affair, senior enough to know a bit of the background. Corruption has nothing to do with left or right - it's all about human behaviour, and all sides are equally corruptable, though I can think of some politicians, on both sides, and senior public servants I've met with high ethics.
Loved the Indian story!

Hi there CHRISGAFF1000...

Speaking of our gifted 'amateur Podiatrists', the infamous 'toecutters', we mustn't forget Stephen John NETTIES, very able with a pair of bolt cutters or stout gardening shears! What a waste of good white flesh. Speaking of James (Jimmy) FINCH and and his roll-model mentor John Andrew STUART, both wore the Whisky fire or did they? I'm sorry your worship my memory's exhausted, and I don't have any friggin' notes of which to refer too, they all went up in the fire?

I'm sorry, I shouldn't be so disingenuous over such a tragedy with the deaths of 15 innocent souls. It's just all the crap you had to go through whenever you jumped the box. And the ol' memory wasn't so hot, because of too many long nights and too much (unpaid) O/T, in order to get your Brief in? That was the lousy part of the job, paper and more paper together with the old Olivetti manual always needing a replacement ribbon, placed strategically on the charge counter.

'Nifty' Neville was well centered whenever one discussed political corruption. I notice his daughter beat the murder charge of that drug dealer, on an accessorial plea, and received a token penalty. She virtually walked with time already served, and was subsequently discharged? I'm unable to comment further, as I've got no truck in the matter?

I hope you're well old fella, and life in sunny Qld is treating you much better than when we last spoke? I heard on the news 'Skippy' is finally pulling the plug at the end of this month, no more extensions he reckons?

O sung wu,

There is corruption at all levels, I can remember 25 Pounder Guns that had been fully rebuilt by a civilian contractor sitting in storage for some years until they were sent to the same civilian contractor to be rebuilt.
There was a reason for this as there was no work available and the contractor would have had to lay off valued and well trained staff; still it was corrupt practice.

Then there was the army establishment that had a fuel supply station (virtually a Service Station, without the parts sales-1960s) there was a vast discrepancy found in the records and thousands of gallons of petrol and diesel was missing; the Corporal in charge was charged, kept his mouth shut, was convicted and got out after a couple of years and quickly got a new job, he was appointed as a director of a large civilian firm that had big defence contracts.

Does Corruption exist in the Police Force?

Yes it does. Going back to my first encounter with Corrupt Authority. 1963. I arrived in Brisbane to join the Army. I stayed with my Cousin at 1 BOD at Gaythorne instead of NCPD at Gaythorne. I was 17. They got me pissed the night before & I didn't pass the Medical next day. Recruiting told me to come back in a year.

I stayed in Brisbane at an old Aunts at New Farm. I Met & became friends with the Bee Gee there. They played at the Methodist hall there. I used to go to the Sound Lounge above the Bowlette in Queen St. Where I met a chap who offered me a job at Channel 7. I was to be one of the Dancers behind the Singers & lighting & Sound etc. I did some training above the Roxy Theater in the Valley. The Valley was notorious for Corrupt Police & Prostitution. I had Dance lessons from Sir Robert Helpman once or twice & Deportment Lessons from June Daly Watkins.

Now in comes the Corruption bits. I found one of my duties was to help out a "Saturday Date" & "Amateur Hour" Escort at Fashion Shows. Change the Sheets & collect the Keys at the "National Hotel."

The High Class Girls all worked for the Detectives & went to Deportment Classes with June Daly Watkins. That's sort of how I got involved. I Changed the Sheets & collect the Keys at the "National Hotel." & returned them to the Bouncer.
cont

cont
I met a couple of other chaps. Warren from Warrens Bar (famous) John Bell (Whisky-a-GoGo fame) (Bouncer) & Johnny Morris & the Playboys. Resident Band. I was well looked after, if you know what I mean. All of those Detectives were mentioned & the few Politicians that were involved were mentioned in the Fitzgerald Inquiry. It strange that he didn't go back that far or as far as the Whisky-a-GoGo.

My Brother punched Peter Allen in the nose & broke it. Yes the film was a lie. He put the hard word on my brother. He'd only arrived in Brisbane a few days before. The Police picked him & me up & questioned us. they asked me if I was on Drugs & I showed them my packet of Vincent's. I spilled my guts about the National Hotel & a few other things. That was at 7 pm at 9.30 pm we were on the train north back to Ayr never ever to return to Brisbane.

In 64 I joined the Army & when I got back to Brisbane I met up with John Bell again & the first Night Club (De Brazil) was opened in Brisbane. Myself, John Bell & John Morris were involved. Me, just a little bit. Those Detectives were always coming & going & so were the Girls & other stuff.

I went away to Vietnam, came home got married & went to Malaysia. Still kept in contact with the De Brazil & Big John Bell during this time. I got out of the Army in 69.
cont

cont
A lady my wife worked with offered to baby sit for us as we had not been out since our daughter had been born. On the day of the Whisky-a-GoGo Fire I rang John Bell & said we were coming to the Whisky-a- GoGo. He said not to go there but go to his rivals as he would be down at the Broad Beach Hotel. We dropped my 3 months old daughter off at the Babysitters who were drinking & playing cards. John Finch was there when we got there & when we left for the Night Club. We got to the Rivals Night Club & about 20 minutes later we decided to leave as we did people rushed in saying the Whisky-a-GoGo was on fire. We went back to the Baby sitters. John Finch was still there.

When they arrested him a few days later I rang the Detectives involved in the Case & said that Finch could not have been involved as he was helping babysit my daughter. I was told in no uncertain terms that if I knew what was good for me I would keep my mouth shut & stay out of it.

Years later the Beaumont's went missing & they were my baby sitters that night. Were the detectives involved with that? I think so.

In 74 I went back to Ayr. n the first Saturday night my wife & I went to the Beach Dance. The Band was playing but no one was up stairs I asked why & was told that they were waiting for the stuff. Then a Police Car drove by & parked under a tree. The Boot opened & the light came on & the crowd made a dash for the car. They came with lots of Weed & got stuck into it. The local Farmers grow it in the Cane three rows in & it's given to the Police who distribute around NQ. The Ayr Police look after the Whitsundays to Ingham. My neighbour was a Courier for them.
cont

cont
They were dividing the weed up at my neighbours place one day & he got a call. The Detective came over with a large suitcase & said to look after it. He had to make a raid on my neighbour & off he went. They came back later with the Squad & raided my neighbour. I had taken the Suitcase & hid it in the Cane. I didn't want it around my house in case they decided to raid me. After the raid the Detective came back & wanted his Suit Case & I told him where he could find it. He did & they continued to divide it up. He told me that the safest way to transport Drugs around Australia was with a large Security Service from a Metropolitan area as it's owned by some Politicians & some very high up Law People. They aren't allowed to be raided or searched.

Some years later I was in Weipa with the ARES & that Detective was there. At night I was guarding the Radar Tower & at 10 pm they turned it off. not long after that plane after plane came in landed turned around & took off again. I asked what was going on. & he said Drug Couriers. I said if he had reported it to the Police & he said that it was the Detective that was running the show. He turned the Radar on for a few minuted & the sky was full of aircraft going both ways. He turned it off. I went outside & a large Van drove past with that well known Security Service from a Metropolitan area LOGO on it. Strange that. He is now one of the higher up in the Police Force.

So are the some of the Police Corrupt. You betcha & it will never change. End

Australia probably has less corruption than many countries, but there certainly is corruption in the political sphere, starting with the pre-selection of candidates, backed by power brokers who want to be paid back for their support. This is why we are getting no hopers in parliament; they are not working for us, they are working for shady people in the background, people the public doesn't even know. Government for the people by the people is a joke. I think, too, that o sung wu had his tongue firmly wedged in his cheek when he mentioned the judiciary. The High Court has given the key to the Constitution time and time again. We have the sense to knock back many more referendums than we pass, but quite often High Court judges invent interpretations that give politicians what they want, anyway. The judges are corrupted by and for power, not money, as they gouge nearly half a million a year out of us legally. Australia is in the mess it is in now because of corruption, even if it is only moral corruption.

Hi o sung wu,

Watched an interesting program on 'The History Channel' about J Edgar Hoover, arguably with 48 years as the head of the FBI the Worlds most powerful copper ever.
Was Hoover corrupt, in a sense yes, he was corrupted by power, applying his own standards, beliefs and moral values to the law. Often protecting those he agreed with, while exposing others he didn't support. He used 'blackmail' as a weapon against politicians, even Presidents, against other leading figures in American society. His approach was to let them know what he knew, then declaring, your secret is safe with me. Naturally it was only safe as long as Hoover wanted it to be.
Some would say Hoover type corruption was a small price to pay for all the good he did cleaning up crime. But was it? Could he simply have used his powers to clean up crime and left the politics etc to others.

Joe Kennedy once asked Hoover to run for President, he declined believing it would be a step down. He was probably right.

Nixon said of Hoover, he would have to resign, we can never sack him.

Politicians don't run the Country. There are faceless people behind them & Politicians are only voices for them. That's why Credlin was put in to control Abbott. Her Husband runs the Liberal Party & they wanted to control his run away mouth. That's how Corruption works fir both major Partys.

o sung wu,

I forgot to mention "Justice" Lionel Murphy and the Morgan Ryan affair.
Murphy "died" just before he was about to be charged under sec. 72.
Very convenient especially in the light of what would have come out in court.
Then there was Franca Arena and the "Outings" affair
I believe she is still locked up in a 'secure' establishment.
The pedophile networks are a classic example of judicial and government corruption.
Nothing changes old mate.

Hi there IS MISE...

What is there to say, dodgy accounting, kickbacks, 'scratch my back 'n I'll scratch yours' sort of thing? Fuel has always been an attractive commodity in which to negotiate deals both straight and bent? Your illustration apropos, rebuilding the 25lb's is more like 'creative' employment practices to me? However I'm sure your average taxpayer wouldn't necessarily agree? Thanks mate for two excellent illustrations.

Hi there COSSOMBY...

Indeed, ain't it true, everyone of us has the potential to be corrupted. I guess it's how we handle the temptation, that is a fair indication as to the depth and fidelity of our character. Of course not everyone is in a position that renders them to be a target for corrupt activity, though many are I guess, and that's the problem. Thanks for your thoughts too COSSOMBY.

Hi there TTBN...

I'm sorry perhaps I didn't quite understand when you say, I had my tongue in my cheek when I mentioned corruption in the judiciary? For clarity, I was very serious my friend. However, I'm not a fool, and I value the simplicity of my retirement.

What I will share with you though, and I've mentioned it before on this very Forum. Police often 'know' something 100%, however they simply can't 'prove' it, in a Court of Law. And you're right, the higher and more powerful an individual may be, the greater potential there is for corrupt behaviour, hence our politicians. Thank you for your thoughts too TTBN.

o sung wu,

To resist corruption is often very hard and takes some serious soul searching.
I was in Government employ for a number of years and when I announced that I'd be leaving I was offered a higher appointment as an inducement to stay.
However that level was also the level where serious corruption had its roots (serious as in jail time not just dismissal), it was also the level of the 'fall guys', so I weighed up the options, frightened myself, and left; private industry was safer, at least at my entry level.

Hi there JAYB...

From the outset I'm not and never have, been a member of the QLD police force. Initially after briefly reading your extended description of your various encounters with members of Qld. police, specifically detectives, and your assertions of their corruption. I was about to query, why it was you failed to give these corrupt bastards up !

That was until I re-read your version again, and realised you were probably in a fairly tenuous position, had you lagged 'em. Presumably you didn't have the additional protections of a Royal Commission (prior Fitzgerald)? Anyway I did a bit over 32 years in the job, and was a detective sergeant upon retirement. Therefore I get pretty 'jacked up' when I hear people make sweeping statements about police corruption, without a modicum of corroboration of any fact(s).

Naturally, I can't offer you any scholarly insight or even a educated comment apropos your precise experience. Sure corruption does occur in law-enforcement as it does in most other agencies where a statutory power is conferred. And yes, there have been and still are corrupt detectives, even in NSW my former force.

Conversely, there are many many more thoroughly good, ramrod straight 'D's who daily, try hard to do a very difficult and equally dangerous job, than these few corrupt maggots who call themselves detectives, who still manage to operate among the swill and effluence of the City's sewers. Believe me JAYB, any corrupt 'D' found in my old squad in the CIB, probably would find it difficult to breathe again after he sucked the edge of a gutter! After all corruption endangers the lives of all police whilst doing their duty.

And in closing to borrow your vernacular JAYB '...so are some of the police corrupt?...' yes a few are. But there are many many more who are absolutely straight, honorable and decent blokes. You betcha, and that'll never change. Albeit some are a bit rough around the edges, but you'd never want 'em any other way when dealing with some of these violent marauding gangs, would you?

o sung wu,

Your remarks that some Ds can be rough around the edges (on occasion) reminder me of a mate of mine, who years ago was on the edge of following in his family's devotion to a life of petty crime.

He told me that when he was about 16 he was giving the coppers a bit of lip and was being chased but he was elusive and knew Redfern well, he was well away when he ran around a corner and right into the arms of 'Bumper' Farrell, he trod on the mate's toes thus trapping him for a private reading of the 'riot act' all the while punctuating his remarks with a jab of his finger to the mate's chest.

Next morning as he surveyed the bruises on his chest, the mate decided that he should mend his ways 'cause as he said "If he could do that to me with his finger, I hate to think what it'd be like if he was fair dinkum".

He said that it wasn't a moral reason for being a straight citizen but until he grew wiser it served the purpose.

Hi there CHRISGAFF1000...

Mr Justice Lionel MURPHY, should be amended to Mr Injustice MURPHY? Wasn't he the Attorney General who ordered the C'Wealth Coppers to raid the Canberra ASIO Offices back in the late 1970's? What a piece of work eh? S.72 the most used and abused section in the entire Crimes Act1900 I reckon. Didn't the original Larceny provisions at Common Law, still provide an avenue for legitimate prosecutions? Larceny as a servant; Larceny by mistake; etc etc.

Interestingly, men will come and go, governments may rise and fall, but corruption will live and prevail as long as men harbour avarice in their hearts, and not personal integrity. Stay well Chris.

G'day there PAUL1405...

J. Edgar HOOVER, what a complex individual he was eh? From humble beginnings in some obscure government agency, charged with some minor inspectorate duties for the agency, on to being the Director of the FBI. Many of the things you've mentioned about him are so true. I was fortunate enough to attend two FBI Schools back in the mid 1980's.

Speaking with some of our tutors and instructors at that time, HOOVER was either still revered or roundly condemned for the nepotism, partiality and bias in the way he ran the FBI. But their loyalty, to both him as it's Director, and the Bureau in toto, was positively unwavering to a man.

I was amazed at their recruiting and entry standards, so high and so demanding. They were often being contemptuously described, by other policing bodies, as America's Super-Cops. Resulting in much antipathy, hostility and enmity, between the Bureau and other law-enforcement agencies. Jealousy can be very damaging to moral, I would've thought?

Many thanks Paul for your thoughts.

Hi o sung wu,

Hoover was indeed a complex personality. Take for example, he was vehemently anti communists, took it to the extreme at times. Yet it was Hoover who in the 1930's declared Nazism was a greater threat to America than Communism, and that was at a time when Nazism was fashionable among many of America's elite.
It was hoover who formed the G-Men, answerable only to Hoover, whipped the force into shape fat men were made to lose weight, he had then weighed every month. made his men wear collars and ties. he was the first to understand the value of the media in formulating 'image' he used it most effectively for his own benefit.

I had a very good friend of mine, now deceased, he was a Crown Sergeant, not at Woollahra, ran with a football in his younger days, 40 years in the NSW coppers, LO and I went fishing together on Botany Bay often and talked.
Hw related this to me: At his retirement function a very senior copper in the force can up to him and said Well "Bill" you and I got our houses out of the force. "Bill" replied: "You got your house out of the force, I worked for mine," He could say that then.

Maybe you knew my mate the punter

Here is a place you might like to start investigating.

Start with what seems and appears to many, to be an admission by Senator Shane Parry, Senator for Tasmania and who is also the President of the Australian Senate.

In a mortuary industry publication he appears to praise the foresight of a mortuary company who, I gather, developed a new product for use at Pt Arthur in 1996.

If you conclude that this is indeed an admission then it suggests the event was planned and the govt is guilty of some things?

Secondly, take an interest in the royal commission into pedoism in Australia, There is good coverage of it at Gumshoe News.

Also on that website is some detailed review of the Lindt caffa incident a year or so ago.

That will get you started.

cheers

Hi there REFERUNDEMDRIVENSOCIETY...

Wow, that epithet of yours is a mouthful for sure my friend? However back to your contribution - no doubt there's corrupt practices to be found everywhere. And at every strata of both, government(s) and private enterprise.

In order to satisfactorily and efficaciously tease out all major corruption, one would need a force of tens of thousands, with unlimited resources, even to correctly identify, those engaged in such criminality. And having identified these miscreants, one must first seek out the necessary evidence to put the alleged offenders before a court. And then, have that evidence appropriately tested, pursuant to the rules of evidence, before a conviction can be lodged.

And that dedicated force, appointed to weed out corruption - who precisely would scrutinize them? There's that old legal maxim '...who watches the watchers...'? And so it goes on? Thank you very much for your contribution, I greatly appreciate it.

what has made corruption much easier is hand picked leftie judges who are usually more political than impartial. Look at our Human Rights Commission and you will see how easily they lie.

Hi there RUNNER...

You're so right my friend - there's a saying in my former industry, which reflects accurately of such jurists; 'jelly Judges'. How true it is, with inordinately light sentencing, permitting bail over and over again, this is long after the offender has repeatedly estreated his bail and has to be re-arrested. It beats me?

Hello O Sung Wu,

I'm coming in a bit late into this discussion so I've been
trying to do some catching up and research into the subject.
My mind's having difficulty trying to grasp the complexity
of the problem. In one article that I read - they emphasised
that - " To ensure Australia has effective legal and institutional
capacities for preventing, detecting, exposing,
and remedying official corruption at all levels of
government we do have anti - corruption
agencies." We're told that these agencies are part of Australia's
national integrity system.

Which made sense. However they they listed all the problems
that these agencies face - including defining the legal meaning of
"corruption." All this did my head in.

Too much to take in, in one go. However, I am interested in the
opinions of others - and I shall keep on reading what you and they have to say.

Interesting topic.

Hi there FOXY...

I'm positively delighted to hear from you once more FOXY, especially after so long an absence ! Have you been unwell, or on holidays perhaps, or what ?

I've been very concerned about your non-attendance for so long now, to such an extent I decided to introduce a specific Topic herein, where I'd expressed my profound concern, that we (all male contributors), had somehow lost our three most valued, erudite and elegant ladies (your good self, POIROT & SUSEONLINE) from OLO and this Forum !

Due in part to my own poor and unacceptable etiquette, as well as displays of inferior and inadequate conduct, and in some instances, intemperate language employed by some males, who seek to authoritatively, and forcefully, articulate their own opinion(s) on this Site!

For my part FOXY, please accept my most humble apologies, with a guarantee that I'll endeavor to try infinitely harder, to 'clean up' my own act, as it were.

Apropos your comments on corruption too? Well I've not really allowed your opinion and views to fully resonate with me at this time, I'm sorry? And in my own defence, I'm so very very pleased to see your epithet (FOXY) once more, take pride of place, at the very head of your worthy commentary FOXY ! Welcome back, we all missed you so very much indeed.

welcome back Foxy ( I say that sincerley). Your absence could of contributed to the ushering in of the Trump era. Interesting times and we need you to give balance to some of us red necks or conseratives or whatever else people label us.

Dear O Sung Wu,

You don't owe me any apologies my dear friend.
You've never said or done anything to ever hurt anyone.
On the contrary. I feel so humbled by your kind words
and your support over these many years. Thank You.

My absence was mainly as a result of my own health issues, and
the addition of my mother's health issues. She's in a
dementia wing of a nursing home (where I volunteer),
and she was in and out of hospital as a result of several
falls and bleeding on her brain. I ended up not coping
very well at one stage, (I had a meltdown) and hence my absence.

I missed you very much, and I am glad to be back.
The forum has kept me sane and I am grateful to all the many
friends I have made.
Bless you all.

Dear runner,

Thank You for your kind words as well.
During my difficult times I found solace in prayer.
Marianne Williamson once wrote -

"No conventional therapy can release us from a deep and
abiding psychic pain. Through prayer we find what we
cannot find elsewhere: a peace that is not of this world."

Prayer helped me during some hard times. Watching your
mum deteriorate was hard. However, she's slowly making
progress. That's what can happen with dementia. Each day is
different.

Dear runner,

You have a good heart.

Hi there FOXY...

I won't unnecessarily dwell upon your prolonged absence nor the reason(s) why ? Suffice to say, it's absolutely fantastic to have you back again, if for no other reason that you have that incredible ability to calm a quarrelsome discussion and; to keep us troublesome males in some semblance of order. Just a quick word about your dear Mum - I can only hope she obtains the peace she seeks, and has frequent moments of lucidity and recognition, of all her family members FOXY.

And is it necessary to again remind all you lovely ladies and gentlemen, of the provisions of S.9(b) of the 'Forum Participant's Act 1997' prohibiting anyone from having a 'meltdown' on penalty of 'shouting drinks all round' having had, on reasonable grounds, said 'meltdown' ?

Now if only we could encourage the other two ladies, Poirot and SUSEONLINE, to return to our humble fold, than all would be well. FOXY would you have any particular leverage, to encourage these two lovely ladies back?

Dear O Sung Wu,

I'm hoping that both Poirot and Suse will eventually
return. I'm sure they must realise how much we miss
them both. All I can say to them, if they're reading
these posts is -"Come back please. We need you!"

cont'd ...

I've come across the following website which may be of
interest regarding this discussion:

http://www.theconversation.com/a-national-icac-we-need-better-anti-corruption-bodies-not-more-26302

Hi there FOXY...

Gee it's great to be able to say '..."Hi there FOXY"...' once again! Indeed, I couldn't agree with you more, we really need both of our elegant ladies to return to the fold. And I think it's really useful when everyone's anonymity is preserved, except there should be perhaps, a mechanism that would permit 'some' messages to be delivered to those concerned. Especially in this instance where there's nothing more sinister than trying to encourage these two, to return to the Forum? I suppose all we can do is try.

Thank you for your useful link to the 'Conversation' another worthwhile Site in which to enunciate one's opinion. In fact I've added my own 'far right' views on some issues. Which have on occasion, caused much consternation among many of the academic 'Left Wing' elites.

I recall one topic, the moderator's removed five of my comments because of the distress and argument they'd caused. I'd not misbehaved, or used unseemly words, I merely employed the English language to assist in my argument. The topic was dealing broadly, with Homosexuality. I didn't use the word Gay, or the term homosexual practices between two males, rather I called them sodomites, and their conduct was sodomy? I left bruised and battered, but you know me FOXY, I love a good blue, and thoroughly enjoyed it? I realise why I'm a social pariah, but being a former copper, one gets used to it.

Seriously, The Conversation does generate some exemplary commentary, not unlike that of 'DAVID F.' a valued member of this Site. Therefore I do learn much from them.

Thank you once again FOXY, I appreciate your views and your insight very much indeed. Stay well please.

Dear O Sung Wu,

You've done it again - made my heart sing.
Thank You dear friend!

As far as words are concerned -I often get the feeling
that we are sometimes a tad too "politically correct".
Your intent was not to insult anyone and that's what
should have mattered.

The abovementioned conversation website deletes comment not on their agenda, the latter likely driven by their motives and cash or kind reward.

Reward could include grants and contracts for research into anything that might be construed into evidence of AGW, including for example coral bleaching they say is caused by global warming caused by CO2 emissions.
If it's global warming why is the whole GBR not overwarm at the same time?
And where is the scientific evidence of the actual increased warmth that killed that northern GBR coral?

Comment deleted on that website includes evidence of substance.
They deleted comment about nutriet pollution being carried northwards into GBR waters.
For example the Australian Sediment Dispersal System transports sewage and other anthropogenic nutrient pollution into Great Barrier Reef waters where the unprecedented nutrient overload proliferates algae that feeds COTS starfish.
Unprecedented anthropogenic proliferated algae is also causing anoxia and dead zones killing coral zooanthellae algae and the coral building animals, resulting in coral 'bleaching'.

There is a massive problem.
Solutions proposed for AGW CO2 emissions do nothing toward solutions to reduce nutrient overload pollution and algae in ocean food web and biodiversity in river estuaries and bay ecosystems that are supposed to provide food for GBR and SW Pacific Ocean animals and seafood dependent people.

That conversation website is corrupt and fraudulent because it deleted comment and information of substance.
That claimed conversation labelled site does not fit the dictionary definition of conversation, being (quote), "a talk, especially an informal one, between two or more people, in which news and ideas are exchanged".

The massive problem is that without nutrient load reduction the GBR and coral worldwide is continuing to be devastated.

There is no scientific evidence to prove nutrient overload is not feeding algae killing coastal seagrass nurseries and reef coral.

At least here on this OLO site opinion can be expressed and ideas exchanged without editing.

Hi there JF AUS...

In the criminal law, in order to mount a case of corruption, police must first establish the receipt of a 'benefit' to which the accused is not entitled to receive. The word 'benefit' can mean anything of value, subject of ownership - much like one of the 'proofs' for common law larceny viz. 'something of value, property of another, without 'colour' of right'. In general terms this is what the prosecution (the Crown) must prove, in other words, the elements of the crime.

In many instances, corrupt conduct doesn't necessarily amount to the unlawful receipt of money. A 'favour' could amount to corrupt conduct, especially if the accused person is not entitled to receive that favour.

Furthermore, the individual who seeks to confer a favour, *knowing the recipient is NOT entitled to receive it; and nor is he *lawfully entitled to confer it, then he too can face criminal proceedings as well. In all instances of corrupt behaviour, there must always exist a *guilty knowledge* (mens rea), which is fundamental to all fraud matters.

Most instances of corruption require most adroit police (usually members attached to the fraud squad) in order to successfully prosecute an accused person.

Anyway, JF AUS, I hope this simple explanation goes in someway to assist you in understanding the ordinary elements, attached to corrupt conduct. Many thanks for your contribution.

o sung wu: (usually members attached to the fraud squad)

I see the Queensland Fraud Squad has been done for Fraud. Friday Courier Mail.

Politicians & the Law fraternity make laws that make their Fraud Legal & covers their Ar$e$.

G'day there JAYB...

Unfortunately, all police forces are not immune to corruption, including NSWPOL. You see, some are so tempted to take easy money especially those who know their way around the law and criminality - particularly police able to intimidate anyone, who's of a mind to 'give 'em up'! It's in the culture I'm afraid, and some weak bastards yield to that temptation, which then casts a dark shadow over us all!

Am I corrupt, I'll leave it to you to judge, as I have also received 'benefits' to the tune of - 50% at most large food outlets (Maccas & KFC etc); as do the Ambo's and Firies; 20 to 30% discount on tyres and vehicular parts; again as do the other emergency services.

And when I made detective, most of us attended a well known Men's Outfitters, in Sydney and suburbs, where we all received 25-30% on suits and sport's wear. Corruption, do you think JAYB ? Interestingly this same retailer regularly advertised in our Police Association magazine offering good rates for police - again available to other emergency services? Consequently one would have to be 'blind Freddy' to say the Commissioner was unaware of this?

o sung wu,
would that men's outfitter have been "Angelo de Marco" who also supplied the best Julius Marlow Brogues.
Are yes for good old low level corruption days when the pie and peas down at "Harry's" 'Cafe d Wheels'
were free to 'squad' members on Friday and Saturdays nights and there was always a cum gracia feed
and drinks and handful of chips and seat at the wheel in Forbes Street or the Goulb** Street high spot.
Corruption made the wheels turn better if not faster in those days andthen came "GREED" which blurred the line
so much that 'honest coppers' got out of the job and
went to work for themselves or the bookies.

G'day there CHRISGAFF1000...

It's always good to get one of your Emails Chris. Anglo de Marco ensured all of Sydney's 'jacks' were well attired and a credit to those who worked the upper floors of the Remington Centre. And for more robust attire, Joseph Dahdah, in sunny Redfern, took care of business.

And you'd recall that genteel supper establishment Costello's situated behind the Wayside Chapel, where if so motivated, many of the blokes who worked down stairs at KX, regularly gravitated. Only in an effort to ensure they strictly observed closing time, as well as maintaining their standard of fare. Moreover, in the past that's where the illustrious Consorting lads, allegedly had their local HQ?

Costello's was the preferred midday pasture of Graham 'Chook' FOWLER, his 2i/c Larry CHURCHILL. Also a confidant and good mate, Trevor 'woof' HAKEN who later 'gave up' half the job to the RC.

The Taxi Club opposite the C.C. Courts at the top of Oxford Street, was a haunt for some. Not for me mate, I didn't relish doing 5 years in the Bay for corruption, where you'd be continually watching your back, or on close protection in Berrima with all the other 'bow wow's.

I hope things are going well with you Chris.

Bringing up police corruption is a distraction.

Todays SMH page one story is more like the real and blatent and major corruption that is taking place.

Light rail running costs blow out by 70 percent, says the headline.

The Sydney TRAM project cost will apparently "blow out" by nearly a billion dolturn of trams was not wanted anyway.
Media especially including the SMH kept return of trams quiet enough to stifle debate that may have left fast maneuverable buses to do the job.

On the Gold Coast trams have taken away parking and sent many businesses to the wall.
Trams are surely not viable.

Light rail, what a joke. Light rail is a lie.

It's trams, stupid.

Big mobile advertising on the carriages all part of someones deal.