There are significant problems in indigenous communities as there are in non indigenous communities. The actions today of the Federal Government to effectively take over the management of the indigenous communities in the NT is a pre-election stunt in my opinion This sudden burst of paternalism leaves me wondering as to the true motives of Canberra's actions. If conditions are improved, and abuse lessened that is a good thing. Lets hope that the porn capital of Australia, Canberra also has the same strong actions ie. ban x rated porn.

The measures announced today are very strongly paternalistic, and discriminatory inasmuch as no such measures would ever be introduced in white communities.

But…. I support them all the way.

The fact is that issues in indigenous communities are very different to those in white towns, and thus they need a very different approach.

When all else has failed, a strong government with a strong rule-of-law ethic is needed.

It is absolutely the right thing to do to make sure that the income of indigenous people is spent to a significant extent on things other than grog and pornography.

It is the absolutely right thing to do to make sure that child molestation is eliminated from indigenous communities.

A pre-election stunt it may be. In fact it certainly looks like it, after so many years of Howard’s virtual inaction on this issue.

But, there is no doubt that it is the right thing to do.

It just beggars the question; if this sort of action can be easily taken now, then why the hell couldn’t it have been taken many years ago, or within the first year of the Howard government?

How the hell could our government, or our society, allow things to remain so disgustingly bad in the hundreds of indigenous communities dotted across this apparently great country?

I just caught Lateline on ABC TV, with Tony Jones interviewing John Howard on this subject.

Jones is the most excellent astute interviewer. He knows how to throw the curliest questions and to play the part of the most difficult devils’ advocate for anyone he interviews.

But Howard had it all totally under control.

He genuinely cares about the terrible state of our indigenous communities.

I’m by no means a Howard supporter, but this time he has won me over...............But it still begs the question as to why this sort of action didn’t happen eleven years ago, or five years ago, or last year.

Not unlike the thread that has gone of page but still lives can I ask what level of understanding the thread starter has of the problem?
I want John Howard and his government in shreds on election night.
But put my hands together for him and Rudd on this issue.
Paternalistic? really? this is a nation wide issue, yes it is! you can not use some local area names here or your posts or even the thread can be deleted but I know in NSW country towns children male and female are raped!
By uncles fathers and brothers.
It hurts so very much to know this and see nothing done.
35 years of watching , and being helpless hurts real life kids, real rape.
Has the poster watched brand new homes in brick being built with pure joy?
Replacing once new timber homes good homes at last?
Then seen the timber ones burnt as fire wood?
Then doors windows and floors of those new ones burnt?
Paternalism is the only way to help children grow, some who need our help are children some action must take place well done John Howard use a bull dozer if you must.
Enforce tough love accountability education for every one but stop by any means the tragic pain these people live in .

Here Here
The whole of the Australian Public support John Howard on this issue.
Remember the NT had enquires and it was left up to them. Howards saying its not good enough.
Thank God for the kids and the the peoples sake
I have watched his Minister with great interest. Hed be one of the few Ministers in parliment that was driven by good will and doing his job.

Anybody who is not behind this - such as The Dems Leader ought not be into politics.
Its Long Long overdue.

I am sure the Government are doing it because they really care.
Perhaps Australia ought not have State Governments if they cant control this sort of neglect to people.
Now Prime Minister all you have to do is create training and jobs oportunitys with our cojoint vegetable Roo and cattle Sheep Farms and abattoirs.
We need to train people to become electrians , plumbers packers slaughtermen nurses and Drs and many more.

We need to Free Range farm and set up small goods factories for value adding.

Its a rural area and these people have a way with the land if given half a chance.

No reason they cant hold shares in their own farms and plants of all discriptions.
Give them something to work for and their pride back.
The only thing I dont agree with is that you can do it with only a hundred extra police.
You require Army assistance which could dble up as sercurity for our boards.
I wish John Howard the best of luck on this mishion.
Prime Minister we say combine the two and establish abattoirs and Free Range Farms.
Do the right thing for the Animals of Australia as well.
These people need the jobs.
Lets face it nothings going to change unless you create employment and training and whats better than Free Range Farms and abattoirs in a regional are.
That brings other growth- such as small biz tourism food outlets.

'

Take it easy Belly, I have spent a lot of time up north.
In one way I am pleased that something substantial is finally being done, it grieves me that nothing was done for a long long time. I am not the only one querying the timing. Hopefully they will consult with the community elders as the go back to the future.

Regards
Ozbob

at last! the 'tampa' has come over the horizon.

People person, good post.

“Hed [Mal Brough] be one of the few Ministers in parliment that was driven by good will and doing his job.”

Yes indeed.

“Anybody who is not behind this - such as The Dems Leader ought not be into politics.”

Absolutely.

For sure - action needs top be taken to protect aboriginal, and any other, abused children. But it would be good to see some positive moves too - like better mental health & rehab care.

Of course it's an election stunt! And - how timely - just in case we noticed that the Howard government is setting up traditional aboriginal lands for nuclear waste dumps. Sure takes our minds off that!

And as well, reinforces any negative views we might have - especially as aboriginal traditional owners are travelling around speaking out against the nuclear waste dumping.
Christina Macpherson www.antinuclearaustralia.com

Here we go, John Howard's Tampa has arrived, and this time he has the full support of the opposition. Whilst I agree wholeheartedly that there is an epidemic, Paternalism will not win the day.

Governments in the past have given the Aborigine people the right to shut themselves off in small communities where living standards and behaviour have been hidden from the general population. All Government bodies have known for many years the living conditions under which these communities live - but chose to stay quite.

The general community are usually only interested in the fact that Aboriginal people receive welfare.

Can some one please advise me as to why the Police should be given the social work job in these commuunities. What the Aboriginal people need is education, education, and more education, then they need to work for their living. We need to get some kind of work into these communities so they will not suffer from bordeom which leads to drinking. Aboriginal people do not need bludgeoning.

And please do not tell me that paedophilia/incest does not happen in white society. Why do male caucasians vist Asian countries? What about child pornography over the internet. Its an epidemic over all socities around the world - all our women and children need to be protected

this is not a national emergency. it's a national disgrace, of long standing. the only emergency here is the lib's sinking ship. and sure enough, "let's all get behind the pm" is heard throughout the land.

instead of saying "let's fix this, and punish the pollies who have presided over this disgrace'" it's "good oh! johnny's our man!"

poor kevvie has to stand there and say me too: "throwing children overboard is disgraceful, there is bipartisan revulsion." poor lad couldn't take the lead on this issue, can someone tell me why?

this is early times, but i see real potential here for a new standard of 'howard coup', relegating the tampa to a mere warm-up exercise.

The alcohol ban should be introduced across the nation. Aboriginals aren't the only group to suffer from alcohol abuse and abuse caused by alcohol. This is a half baked knee jerk reaction by a government bereft of real answers for a real nation-wide problem.

by the way, ozbob, "x rated porn from canberra" kind of dates you. write "porn" on google and welcome to the 21st century.

x rated porn was the term used by our Prime Minister.

Your post highlights how silly aspects of the plan actually are ..

thanks!

:-)

The porn industry does not just result in black rock spiders but white ones also. People who want to gratify themselves on this stuff continue to argue their rights while again the most innocent in society (children) are sexually abused. Blind freddie can see that people act out what they watch. Visit a prison and you will find without exception the sex offenders are into porn.

Ban this, Ban that. Havent we learned anything in the last 100 years regarding banning things. It doesnt work. Especially when your only banning selected communities. They're going to have to ban petrol, potato's, actually most starchy vegetables, glue, superglue, flyspray, actually most aerosols.

Do you actually think that the ban will have any effect at all, when most towns dont even have police, and those that do, have corrupt police.

This whole Howard solution is pure smokescreening of the real issue, its not about aboriginals, its about poverty and an entrenched subculture based around trying to survive / escape that poverty and its depressive effects and its an epedemic not only in Aboriginal communities but across the entire Australian sub poverty line demographic.

I know this because I grew up as a poor white kid and watched all my sisters, friends and mates self destruct on drugs, sex, crime and suicide. I also spent a large portion of my time in Wilcania, one of the most depressing aparthied white / aboriginal communities I have ever visited.

Howards a smart guy.

Let's get one thing straight here - I understood John Howard said he would do the same thing to the rest of the community if it was necessary. It is just a pity that he will not be able to do it for the states as well as the territory...thank goodness the territory did not attain statehood or nothing would have happened.
I once knew a wonderful, indeed amazing and outstanding indigenous woman (now unfortunately no longer with us) who told me that this was the sort of solution she would support.
To suggest it is paternalistic is nonsense. Too much political correctness has caused too much misery in too many areas. Far better to take away the supposed rights of some adults if it means that children are going to gain theirs.
If self determination puts children at risk then it has to cease.
I imagine I will get blasted for this point of view but I do care deeply about the children.

Make no mistake ,this is a tragic situation all over Australia ,brought about by inexcusable Government neglect of our own most vunerable Indigenous people . Genuine efforts and BILLIONS of well directed dollars ,not political election spin are required .

This may explain why Howard and Brough were so quick in taking away the 60 Million dollars promised to the Aboriginal people of Alice Springs to help alleviate their equally horrendous problems, with them probably having even more access to alcohol and other drugs.

What will he do for the large number of tragic male and female alcoholics - a product of the indifference of our own alcohol fuelled society ?

Because of his historical attitude to Aboriginal People I don't trust his motives - never will after his nasty decision, spurred on by his mates, the National Party and the National Farmers Federation, to "rearange" the laws [to the detriment of Native title Claiments] to the granting of Land Rights in the Mabo and Wik Decisions [1998] by the now stacked High Court.

It has already been said this could well be a back door way to take more land off our Indigenous Brothers and Sisters.

The world will be watching John.

Communicat,
The problems of child abuse and alcoholism are problems of all societies where alcohol takes the place of self esteem brought on by ingrained racism.
They are not the result of Aboriginal Self Determination - it doesn't exist .

Regardless of HOWARDS motivation and timing the situation at hand had to be addressed.

The political environment of the present, presents an oppurtunity to bring to fruition a tangible act of descency to those who can not or will not help themselves.
Which can not be knocked by another political party other than the obsolete democrats(sorry Andrew).

Lets face the undeniable truth that the worst attrocity that was self inflicted to Australian Aborignes was the right to consume alcohol. And the white do gooders who helped them commit cultural suicide should be the ones to be ashamed.

In the same way as people with an intellectual disability need to be protected then so do aboriginals in these fuzzy communities who seem to revert to preying on themselves.

YOU CANT HELP THOSE WHO WONT HELP THEMSELVES.

John Howard's Tampa my rear end! the only Tampa he will see will roll right over him on election night.
Scotty you are no help, yes few in this community want to help themselves, true like it or not they do not want to work for change.
The crimes are real as are the victims.
Howard has my support he has started to do the right thing.
Kids of 8 years of age turned up in school yesterday, missing hair in circles about the same size as a 50 cent piece on their head, hungry and fell asleep at the desk.
Some have been victims of sexual assault for years.
Not in the NT but just a few hundred ks from Sydney.
This country must act and now yes pale you are quite right a job and a future go together.
If it takes more money let us spend it.
But not waste it , why pay any sit down money?
Why not a real job real work of real use to the community or no money?
Fund those jobs by all means
Can those who are opposed to Howard action tell me another way"|? how many bright eyed young kids must have a life ruined before you would act?

The Courier Mail in Brisbane has an editorial today titled
Right deed for wrong reason?

I think they have nailed it. Actions are needed, but the Howard government has waited until it perceives it can gain political advantage. As we know from past performances, Howard et al will do anything to cling to power.

The editorial can be found here --> http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,21950740-13360,00.html

Best wishes
Ozbob

One way of making a local industry for the indigenous communities would be to locate solar chimneys for electricity generation, pollution free, renewable and no nuclear waste dumps to worry about, in inland Australia. Locations ideal. (see here for some background --> http://www.enviromission.com.au/ and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_chimney )These installations would be very substantial. Folks could contribute in various capacities, trades, technicians through to engineers once operational and assist with construction too. Support facilities and services offer other opportunities for employment. Very high voltage DC transmission can go a long way these days.

This would endear a positive revolution, a real sense of value and still hold dear connections to the lands and spirit.

This is an example of big picture thinking, something governments can't or won't do due to their own self interests, like re-election and photo-ops.

Regards
Ozbob

Kartiya Jim of course they exist everywhere - I did not say they did not. The difficulty is that because they exist everywhere that has been the excuse used to do nothing where something might be done. Too many people tiptoeing around and saying "sshh...we can't say that about indigenous people".
What makes "indigenous" for a start? I would say of greater "indigenous" than "other" descent but that is not the benchmark used. On the other hand of course I have to be "Australian" and am not allowed to claim my own ancestry. Perhaps we should all be just Australian...and forget the multicultural bit? Of course that would have to mean no Greek restaurants, no Italian food festivals, no Hungarian clubs, no Vietnamese associations etc etc. Why the difference?
Which is perhaps why John Howard suggested that the programme could be extended to anyone who failed to care for their children - something his critics have naturally ignored.
I still say children first.

Listening to Tony Abbott on the ABC'S AM this sat. morning when asked how much money he would spend on Aboriginal Health to overcome the child abuse problem and one assumes those affected by the disease of alcohol , he would not say.

It would have been nice for him to say "whatever it takes" but no , political double speak again - it sounds like one truth for the press release another truth for the reality .

Interestingly the Government is going to give the NT labour government the prickly political job of administering liquor licences.

Travelling to Wyndham in north west WA in 1994 ,I was shocked to see alcohol outlets built like Fort Knox - it's the same all over the north - "Get them hooked and rip their money off them - Someone else will pick up the enevitable cost of the ensuing child abuse and violence ".

All Australian governments should immediately make liquor outlets responsible for the health damage their products do to all our society .

Also I think it would be a good idea to make sure those white owned stations that are on the most productive ex Aboriginal land employ a large number of Aboriginal youths to enable them to get the managerial skills necessary for the management of their own land.

Like the Anz Bank's worthy effort of making 3% of it's work force Aboriginal- more needs to be done by big business and all australians.

k-Jim raises an interesting point. Grog outlets are not going to just pack up and go home for the good of indigenous people's health. And a government that won't ask junk food companies not to advertise during kiddy TV shows is unlikely to interfere in the booming business that is alcohol in NT.

You're not going to find doctors and specialists stampeding to remote communities where money is much harder to find. And you're not going to come across a whole lot of doctors who will be happy about checking young kids for sexual abuse without their parents' permission.

After the Chris Hurley episode you're also not going to find the needed number of enthusiastic, rosy-cheeked police officers longing to demonstrate their sensitivity to Aboriginal people. Critics will have a field day with the first sign of police brutality.

I agree with people who say it's a mixture of election strategy and land grab. If there's one thing Howard has wanted all along as much as he's wanted power, it is the power to undo land rights legislation. He's just found a way to do it that makes him look good in the short term.

Yeh righto OZbob, we can build a big white solar tent in the middle of nowhere which we will have to fund, maintain and evenually shut down just like everyother dogooder scheme aimed at the blacks that didnt involve dot paintings or boomerangs.

Kartiya maybe we could get them jobs on white owned stations, who obviousley have the best land and train them in station management. ooops sorry its been done before with very limited success.
Are your experiences limited to a trip past a fortified grog shop in the Nth West. Do you ever wonder why they are fortified? Because they go bloody nuts after 2 beers and the poor prick behind the counter values thier life.

"If conditions are improved, and abuse lessened that is a good thing. Lets hope that the porn capital of Australia, Canberra also has the same strong actions ie. ban x rated porn."

What the hell are you smoking? To advocate authoritarian control of OTHER people's lives? Do you think you live in a Democracy or a Dictatorship, because I sure know where the hell you do belong.

Notice we have three active threads here on this subject? plus a live one that has slipped of the page but still lives.
And one in the posted articles section, pity we could not have one.
Yes you do not need to go far to find the grog shop is fort Knox.
We have to confront the fact it is a nation wide Aboriginal issue.
And that some Aboriginals are racist,
Some ,far too many have no intention of ever working.
Or ever being part of the mainstream.
Some great leaders exist in that community but if the plans they have include work, accountability, and education for Aboriginals they are ignored.
If the hand full of hand out give me the money Aboriginal leaders can get out of the way a chance exists we an do something Howard, I would never shake your hand and look forward to your humiliation on election night but you got it right this time.

"He genuinely cares about the terrible state of our indigenous communities."

If he did, he would have done something prior to this election.

For the benefit of readers of this thread, Steel is quoting Ludwig from the second post on the thread.

Things HAVE been tried with this most difficult of problems for many years. You can hardly say that Howard hasn’t done anything in the last 11 years. He's done just about as much as a series governments before him.

There is no doubt that the timing of this latest effort has everything to do with the election. But it is also a matter of realising that ‘pussy-footing’ around the issues just doesn’t get us anywhere, and that it is time for a strong and decisive approach.

belly
Just remember most of Australia has been under state labour Government.
So if you cant praise Howards efforts because you reckon the Federal Government have been slack- Whats labours excuse? Umm
Our biggest mistake has been to listen tothe do gooders.
They are the ones who insisted! we treated aboriginal people differently to the rest of Australians.
That has resulted in their own aboriginal leaders rippping their own people.
At least Rudd has agreed its a step in the right direction.
So really all your comments and along with a few misinformed buddies are doing is highlighting once again disunity within labour.
Nothing else.
Please have the common decency to leave helping the poor little aboriginal kids and elderly OUT of cheap political shots.
I dont support the Howard Government in many things but - This is something any decent person supports and Rudds smart enough to know the public will punish him unless he supports it.
Good on the Howard Government

Even Rudd

"They are the ones who insisted! we treated aboriginal people differently to the rest of Australians."
I guess you think they should have no native title then. They were here 40 000 years at least, before their land was invaded and stolen by foreigners. Seems as though you are forgetting that.

"Things HAVE been tried with this most difficult of problems for many years. You can hardly say that Howard hasn’t done anything in the last 11 years. He's done just about as much as a series governments before him."

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/howard-took-no-interest-last-year-nt/2007/06/22/1182019367427.html
"A Queensland doctor, Lara Wieland, also said she had tried to tell the Prime Minister several years ago of the extent of abuse of indigenous children.
Dr Wieland personally handed Mr Howard a 10-page letter saying state authorities had ignored her multiple reports of child abuse, including cases of five-year-olds with sexually transmitted diseases."

Steel , If Howard was handed the letter on Aboriginal problems that needed adressing ,and one would assume a brief idea of it's contents -- What did he say ?

Steel, always tell us who you are responding to. This gets read by hundreds of people, not just you and the person you are debating with. People need to easily be able to follow lines of discussion.

“I guess you think they should have no native title then.”

Well you would be wrong. I suggest being very careful about making wild extrapolations. You obviously bombed out completely, to your considerable embarrassment I would think, when you did that to me on another thread: http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=728#13125, http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=728#13129.

“They were here 40 000 years at least, before their land was invaded and stolen by foreigners. Seems as though you are forgetting that.”

Hey, I am one of the most ardent critics of our nation’s forefathers for treating Australia as Terra Nullius and for invading and displacing the Aboriginal people of this continent. This aspect of our national history is as bad as anything in the world.

Now we live with an apartheid legacy, where those who live in indigenous communities are severely disadvantaged in terms of the most basic factors; quality of life, health, life expectancy and everything to do with them.

We need strong policies to unwind some of this terrible discrimination and bring indigenous peoples' quality of life up to somewhere near the national average.

Things HAVE been tried with this most difficult of problems for many years. But of course none of this has been anywhere near good enough.

Neither will these new measures be good enough by themselves. But it is the best sign of hope that I’ve seen in a very long time. I just hope that they prove to be reasonably successful and quickly, and get built upon with more wide-ranging policy changes.

Despite the apparent disempowerment of Aboriginal people over this, I reckon that if they can see it improving their lives, they will quickly feel more empowered than they have in their whole lives, and will in time be able to control the terrible alcoholism, child abuse and despair of their own volition, that seem uncontrollable at present without strong paternalistic government intervention.

Here here
Ludwig

Why can't the NT make its own decisions? Under Howard, we have never had so much centralised power overturning the NT. Surely the Territorian Government has the maturity to make the decision with some consultation.

It is also heavy handed to impose this upon Aboriginal people as "them and us". This is sounding closer to apartheid than giving people responsibilities over their own lives.

Yes, alcohol is bad for the Aboriginal communities. Consultation with the elders would have at least empowered them to own their own rules. Similar with child abuse. If people don't own their own responsibility, do you honestly believe they will follow prohibition from 3,000 km away from megalomaniacs like Howard who never lets the NT consult with anything?

Similar to Malcolm Turnbull who would rather take over all of Australia's rivers rather than consult with the states and farmers? We could at least own responsibility over changing the way we manage water. But no, they treat us like a nation of idiots.

This Government is as patronising as it is draconian in how it does business. When will Australians get out of this habit sparing to rod to satisfy their masochistic tendencies? The outcome I may agree with, but the way in which this is imposed is most disturbing.

pale again not trying to be funny or smart but I am forced to say I have zero respect for your thought pattens.
My concerns for the Aboriginals is real, I have in other threads on this subject stated clearly that MY ALP.
Yes the party I am welded to for life, in the NT is very much at fault on this issue, that the lunatic who is running the ACT from my side is , well an idiot.
That the WA reaction is petty and unwise.
There! can I say you should read others posts slowly and clearly before you aim your spite filled posts?
That ANY PERSON ANY PARTY, who uses the pain ,some of it very much self inflicted of this community to score political points is a GRUB!
Aware you find it hard to over come your personal biases I found some good in your up page post and agreed a true job is a needed start but sorry no other poster so consistently lets bias get in the way of debate in these pages, you have my sympathy but not my respect.

Saintfletcher.

“Why can't the NT make its own decisions?”

I get the feeling that if there wasn’t an election looming, the Feds would have worked with the Territory government on this issue instead of steamrolling them and then expecting them to come on board. The NT government had certainly been working on the issues. OK so Howard decided that faster stronger action was needed. But this shouldn’t have been an excuse to just complete overtop Clare Martin (Chief Minister and Minister for indigenous policy).

“It is also heavy handed to impose this upon Aboriginal people as ‘them and us’. This is sounding closer to apartheid than giving people responsibilities over their own lives.”

Yes. But just look at the absolutely terrible ‘them and us’ apartheid situation that has always existed. It is one of the great ironies that a heavy-handed more dispossessive policy is apparently needed in order to reduce the extent of this gaping chasm between ‘mainstream’ and indigenous Australians in terms of quality of life.

“Consultation with the elders would have at least empowered them to own their own rules.”

Yes. But consultation hasn’t worked very well overall has it. You might be able to point to a few dry (alcohol-free) communities, but for the same level of consultation, there are many more communities that didn’t deal with the alcohol problem themselves and didn’t condone outside regulation, and continue to live with the terrible consequences.

Of course consultation is desirable. And of course we desire just the same rules to apply to all Australians. But arguably it is these desires that have greatly hindered efforts to effectively deal with the issues.

continued

“If people don't own their own responsibility, do you honestly believe they will follow prohibition…”

Many won't. A strong enforcement regime is needed. But this is the same for most things in mainstream society. Many ordinary people are generally pretty damn poor at owning responsibility, and will break the law if they think they won’t get caught, whether or not they believe in the merit of the particular law they are breaking.

“This Government is as patronising as it is draconian in how it does business.”

Relatively speaking, you are probably right. But you could also say that this government hasn’t been anywhere near effective enough in all sorts of ways, despite working with the states, seeking expert studies, allowing for public consultation, etc. So perhaps a stronger government is just what we need. Unfortunately I think it is impossible for most people to view a stronger government as not being more patronising or draconian.

“The outcome I may agree with, but the way in which this is imposed is most disturbing.”

Yeah but the results (the many decades of worse-than-third-world conditions in indigenous communities) of not implementing a strong rule of law are vastly more disturbing.

the great contribution of tamerlane to sociology, was to demonstrate that it was not necessary to have a program to deal with the losers. unfortunately, western society didn't learn the lesson.

consequently the world is littered with losers, here in australia they are the aboriginal people. since the local government was neither willing to apply the tamerlane solution, nor willing to make any other solution to the ghosts who infested this 'no one's land', they remain a living testimony to humanities insensitivity to pain felt by people who aren't 'us'.

while i am able and willing to excoriate any government, and give them a 50 meter headstart, i can't think what they should do, that the average ozzie taxpayer/voter would welcome. the shame of this situation goes from top to bottom, side to side.

These problems on communities arose from words "Aborigine" or "Aboriginal" being used to qualify rights AND responsibilities of Australians by racial tags.

Qualifications from Federal and State governments as it suits them.

All qualifications by race is part of the problem not the solution.

In 1967 Australians did not vote to expand ability of Commonwealth to treat Australians differently on grounds of race, rather they voted overwhelmingly to eliminate such segregationist treatment, demanding we all be treated equally as Australians.

This truth most inconvenient for many race industry feeders.

Actions supporting, reinforcing segregationist, seperatist actions with qualification of our rights and or responsibilities on grounds of race should NOT be applauded, should be recognised as OUTLAWED.

People living where land titles issued to "Aboriginal" industry corporations must all be given long term peppercorn or secure titles for their homes.

Lack of security in homes is part of the problem in communities.

Belly
The only thought patterns that I cant follow are yours.
We have always held a high interest in aboriginal affairs Belly.
Who was it that was screaming when Senator Andrew Bartletts blots were mostly on migrants or people from other countries.
The do gooders who INSISTED we treat them differently to the rest of us have caused more trouble than anybody.
Just Look! at the mess.

Go back over the last five years .

The women and kids along with the Elderly people are too scared to report abuse and rape because they dont have any support.

What Howards doing is the right thing and as I said even kevin Rudd agrees with that.

So what was it you were complaining about?

Finally , Finally somethings being done.
I read a few posts back somebody said it was a Nationals grab of land and control of farming lands.
Dont you worry about that- We will be watching the National Party Elders[and I dont mean aboriginal leaders] who now fancy themselves as outback internet providers who just got a Billion dollar grant from the Government.

The oNLY way for these people is to give them - or ASSIST them to control their own land.
Any National Party moves or OTHERS to take control of farming lands will be strongly opposed.
Lets help the kids and women first!
That is if you do not mind Belly.

pale I will forget you exist,the crimes are real the suffering is too, the neglect by all sides of politics is a fact.
Bleeding hearted idiots some in my party are in the way of change.
And the problem is nation wide, however so very many have escaped the problem and made it into mainstream Australia.
Why have so many failed to even try?
Yet again we, white Australia must spend money, without recrimination spend what is needed to give.
Health education law housing, work, yes real jobs not ever again sit down money, land if it is part of the answer.
And as every post on this subject has said Howard if this is not just another lie, if this is about real change , if this is not about elections I thank you.
Rudd thank you too, this must be the beginning of the end of over 200 years of failure.
Some blame clearly lays with the community its self and some true racists live in both camps white and black.
Australia must not allowed this shameful thing to continue and must understand it is nation wide not just northern Territory's problem.

Belly
Your a strange one all right. You have just reapeated what I said.
Still what does it matter I guess when everybody is agreeing for once.
I think you will find if this is handled properly the Australian people will offer no end of help.

Long have we asked to fix our own poverty and abuse considering much has been done overseas.

I do hope the public and companies who have made contact with offers of help are allowed to participate and not just Church Groups and parties like the Nationals.

Yes if Rud is helping than we thank him too as I have already said on no less than four ocashions now.

Just for once try to think of the women and children Belly and not your dislike of Howard- Or me for that matter.
Have a nice da

John Howard is on a mission to reduce the power of the states. The states are an anachronism with responsibility for health, education, housing, transport and industrial relations. The federal government raises taxes and provides an army.

Already in this Parliamentary cycle we have seen the Federal government
1. try to take control of industrial relations through Work Choices a massive piece of legislation that is draconian in its impacts on workers and very unwieldy for employers to implement
2. try to take control of water but that appears to have failed
3. now they are rolling back Native Title in the Northern Territory under the guise of "Little Children are Sacred". Notice that Western Australia and Queensland are not cooperating and the details of when the army will be moving into aboriginal lands and where the doctors are coming from still has to be determined

I predict the lasting effects of this "national emergency" will be
1. mining companies have unrestricted access to aboriginal land
2. no change to levels of child abuse
3. more aboriginal children sent to boarding school
4. increased malnutrition and poorer housing as welfare recipients are "breached" for non compliance
5. reduced population in remote areas

Most whites don't know that aboriginal children could be removed from school in NSW if a white parent objected to the aboriginal kid being in the class up until quite recently [last 15 years?]
Now aboriginal children can be forcibly subjected to invasive sexual diseases checks "for their own good". You wouldn't permit your own kids to be subjected to that, would you?

From the musings of People who like dead meat and frisky licentious sheep--

"The do gooders who INSISTED we treat them differently to the rest of us have caused more trouble than anybody.
Just Look! at the mess."

Another one who does not know history, oh god!

Doh! Wasn't this a result of being historically being treated unequally?

Do gooders (as you call them) are merely trying to fix this historical imbalance.

Flat iron egalitarianism is ok to have but you have understand it better sheep lover.

Are you right in the head or what?

Rainer
Be it sheep or children we believe in humane treatment. What you fail to understand is that the dogooders "insisted" that we allowed them to handle their own affairs.
They were always treated differently as the rest of Australians.
There has been so much money thrown at them and waisted- by their "own leaders".
Which is why the Government closed it down.
You would think for once you mmight put the kids first.
I cant see a problem with mines or farms being established Rainer.
So long as its THEIR mines and THEIR farms.

I know the public well enough to believe they would stop any Government trying to take their land back off them.
What we need to look at is the fact the Government have stopped them from selling.
There are many people who own land rich in possibilties but unable to put up infrustration to do anything with.
That MUST change. We the Australian people must help them to fund their own ventures and plants.
That is all they need - Hope!
I have enough faith in the Australian public to make sure that happens.
Every person and company I know are willing to help the aboriginal people.
We need a register as to who wishes to donate what and get cracking.
At last everybody is working to help our first Australians.
Support it or but out.

Sorry, ludwig, in that case i was referring to PALE. Perhaps you missed the quote. PALE reiterated the same words anyway, despite my question. If you treat Aboriginals indifferently then they can't have native title claims, tribal law, etc...

kartiya jim:"If Howard was handed the letter on Aboriginal problems that needed adressing ,and one would assume a brief idea of it's contents -- What did he say ?"
Huh? I presume he ignored it, since nothing was done. Howard was made aware of abuse then and there was no apparent, visible federal action, or if there was it may have been insufficient, a token gesture. Then several months before this election when a report makes the government potentially look negligent, there is suddenly loud federal action and beating of the drums. Howard has a history of politicising events before every election, so it is very credible that he is presenting an image of leadership, in the place of questions about what was known and when.

"That ANY PERSON ANY PARTY, who uses the pain ,some of it very much self inflicted of this community to score political points is a GRUB!"
You are the grub and a dirty little one at that. No one is scoring "political points". Even Howard, who is twisting this to deflect potential blame, using it to grab power and implement policy normally tucked away in the extreme back corner of his party, is not "scoring political points"...well, maybe he is...it depends what Belly means and to whom his coment was referred.

There are legitimate questions into the motives of the government to react so loudly and quickly, where before there was distance and coldness.
Is this a power gain? I don't know.
Is it being used as a gateway for extreme policy? Yes.
Is there a credible political benefit in light of the election? Yes.

And questions of culpability. I think we all agree that the Territory has some of blame at the least. But it's not a State, though. So how much of the blame rests at the feet of the federal government?
Prior federal awareness of the abuse? Yes.
What action was taken? Mystery to me...unknown
Was the action clearly insufficient, or a token gesture? Unknown. At a guess, likely. Since the Howard government has been consistently extremely cold to the Aboriginal issue in the past.

And questions about cost.

Will it cost taxpayers a lot of money? Yes. Scores of costly police have already been sent up to put Aboriginals in costly prisons.

Was this done without the direct consultation of the abused and abusers, to see if there is a more immediate, low key and less costly solution? My guess is, yes. I have not heard any voices, except those of so-called leaders and the government.

Steel

“I don't know.”

“Mystery to me...unknown”

“Unknown. At a guess, likely”

“My guess is, yes”

With this lack of knowledge of the whole subject (and I’m not knocking you for that), how can you possibly say;

“Is it being used as a gateway for extreme policy? Yes.”

What extreme policy do you envisage?

Steel

You are incorrect. Howard "wanted to act 7 years ago" but he was stopped.
That is a fact.
You really need to see whats going on to fully understand.
Nothing short of the Army and many many police and health Services and others will even go close to touch this.
It really is a national emergency.
You ought to be pleased Labour and Liberal are working united on this at last.

"What extreme policy do you envisage?"
None at present, but sending police in before asking any questions is something that resembles a police state. You have a problem? Send the police! It's an all too perfect situation for Howard to implement his party's extreme policies for the Aboriginal people. Already to question the Howard government over this is apparently a negative thing. Actually there are no questions being asked. No opposition. Universal support. Draconian measures are 'necessary'.

"You are either with us, or are with the terrorists." etc... except , it's, "You are either with us, or against the Aborignals."

"You are incorrect. Howard "wanted to act 7 years ago" but he was stopped."
Assuming you are correct...So because Howard was "stopped" from "acting" (likely, extreme party policies were blocked), his next action is to not do something at all and leave it to get worse? Rather than look for alternative solutions or make alternative suggestions? Then blame the opposition or leave it to Australians to blame them years later.Genius! That doesn't makes sense, other than to make it, "the other guy's fault for not doing what I said". That is childish and petty. They had opportunity to do something else, if they were stopped.

Government, "We want all Aboriginals to be removed from Australia"

Opposition, "This is a disgrace."

Government whispering to colleague, "The average Australian is too simple-minded to see the totality of this moment. You wait and see."

Opposition, "Do you want to propose any other solutions?"

Government, "No no. That's fine. You've indicated you don't want to help us."

An Australian years later, "The opposition stopped the government from helping Aboriginals! It's their fault."

pale let your blind unseeing rage cool before you comment the caps lock in mid sentence the miss spelling and the dysfunctional miss quotes do you no good.
If you fail to see the true concern indeed pain in my posts for the kids the women and the community we are wasting our time talking.
The thread about stolen generation started before this latest Medea feast was mine.
In Truth go back to my very early posts years ago here and even further back in other now gone sites and my concerns have been the same.
More blame on this issue belongs to us whites than Aboriginals, time and again we have promised but not delivered on this issue.
My side of politics has far too many who say we should let the community fix it.
And yours says blame it on the community.
Australia knew about this 40 years ago ,we have failed to fix it, this time we must not fail.
pale you in talking to me here must get over the fact I am from the other side of politics, judge what I say not what you think I SAY.
And pale stop trading in the dreadful pain of Aboriginals.
It is not a point scoring game real children are suffering from events that took place just hours ago.
Many of those events are crimes white men paid to carry out against them.

Steel

“… sending police in before asking any questions is something that resembles a police state.”

They are hardly being sent in without any questions being asked.

Do you think questions have never been asked, or efforts made to deal with alcoholism and child abuse, repeatedly over many decades?

Do you think that there is a single adult in an Aboriginal community anywhere in Australia who doesn’t know that child abuse is utterly wrong or that the demon drink is indeed a very sinister demon?

Do you think that they wouldn’t know that the police and government want these problems to be fixed, just as their own people do?

Yes people are suspicious and some are scared that their children will be taken. But maximum communication will be conducted with the people of these communities. They will quickly know just what the police presence is really about.

Right at this very minute some place in Australia maybe in many places in our land, an Aboriginal child is crying.
A victim of sexual assault just minutes ago or a bashing.
Some have not been Fed for a few days.
Do you think false fears matter to that kid?
And is the idiotic claim its about taking land not proof education is needed?
Noel Pearson we need 200 like you.
We Australians must roll over the nay sayers.
The loony left of left.
The rabbit like right of right.
How can any one say no to this?
How can we not hang our head and cry at decades of failure by us?
Again John Howard you furry little rodent well done and thanks.
A fine way to rap up a life in politics save me a seat at the wake on election night,, no need to bother I have been planing that from day one of workchoices.

Well, as events have now shown I am correct. Rights have been revoked. Aboriginals have fled in terror. Land has been requisitioned. Police and military have gone in "to report on conditions" as if for the first time.

All the money spent so far has been on control and confinement by the government. Nothing has gone to do something for the people themselves.

Steel

As a person I have been involved with aboriginal people "all my life."
I was brought up that way I am proud to say.
I have not just jumped on the Ban waggon in the last few weeks.
Steel-there is an old saying - The man I see is the man I be.
It would appear this might apply to you given your extrordinary comments claiming I am cashing in on politics.

If you had bothered to read anything properly in the past you would have noticed I oppose the Government STRONGLY on their lack of compashion and leadership regarding Animal Welfare.
I dislike even more the National party for the same reason. Rudd is weak and slivers around avoiding the hard subjects.
Even if he was the best thing himself since sliced bread he doesnt have the talent in his staff.
The Democrates and do gooders that do nothing and have done little for aboriginal people are not the love of my life either.
I met Steve Fielding in person and that wasnt anything to get excited about.
Except to say as far as arrogance and rudeness goe`s I think Family First would take first prize.

So Steel I am not playing favouites. I AM pleased The Prime Minister and Mr Rudd have put aside some things to help the aboriginal people.

Now to that other poster who claims all the people have run off.
Grow up!
As ludwig said. They know why the police and Army are there and mostly the women and kids are happy to see them
I think its fantsic.
Now may I ask Belly and Steel.
What THEY are doing to help the aboriginal people?