Brexit has banished Bremain and Brittania has voted to exit the EU. Just. It is a bad omen for Bill Shorten, whose party represents the sort of centralising, bureaucratising, confiscatory government that the EU is sliding towards.

It also shows how powerful the radical Liberal middle-class can be in coalition with the conservative working class. This is the coalition that underwrote the political success of Tony Abbott, John Howard, and Malcolm Fraaser.

But political lessons aren't the only ones to be drawn. The British vote is also a vote for nimble flexible economies over lumbering bureaucratic ones.

It is also a vote for strong borders.

So I'll be celebrating tonight. Who will join me?

Great start!...

"British pound slumps to lowest level since 1985"

"Futures trade points to more carnage

Futures trading indicated more carnage to follow when the London stock exchange and Wall Street open later in the global day.

The EMINI S&P 500 Futures lost 5 per cent, while the Dow Jones Index Futures was down 4 per cent.

In London, the FTSE 100 is expected to slump when it opens, with FTSE futures indicating a loss of 8.8 per cent or 555 points.

"The carnage in the FX markets may continue if the Leave votes pull further ahead," Bernard Aw, markets strategist at IG in Singapore, told Reuters.

"Equities markets will be affected, and we can see that Asian stocks are already under a fair bit of pressure.

"British banks listed in Hong Kong are suffering significant losses."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-06-24/brexit-sees-british-pound-slump-aussie-dollar-follow/7540150

yep Graham, the people of Britian have observed Merkel and other socialist and thankfully decided to do something about it. Hopefully Turnbull will wake up to the fact that in Australia the majority of Aussies don't want to pour billions into EU scams like the gw religion and open borders.

Last I heard the Oz market was off $64 billion....should be fun and games on Wall St tonight!

So they've upset the one percent. Is that a bad thing Poirot?

Anyway, it means trouble for Bill Shorten. You wouldn't want to risk him in tough times like these. :)

Graham,

"So they've upset the one percent. Is that a bad thing Poirot?"

Well. I'm sure they didn't mean to.

"....Britain must now extract itself from the world’s largest single market, draw up dozens of new trade deals, amend its legal system and its statute book root-and-branch, and build new systems of cooperation with EU countries in police work and justice...."

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/24/eu-referendum-our-panel-on-the-vote-for-brexit?CMP=share_btn_tw

Regarding upsetting the 1%...someone just tweeted me this on the market drop:

"yep just had 3k wiped off my little retirement folio"

I don't think she's part of the 1%.

I must admit I haven't taken much of an interest in what is happening in the UK politically, so I was wondering exactly what the Brits leaving the EU will mean for them and their trading partners, like Australia?

Will all their borders close to all immigration? Will that affect their trade with those countries? I suppose you will now need a separate visa etc when visiting Britain, as opposed to the rest of Europe. I hope that doesn't affect tourism.
It will be interesting to see how it goes.

All Grahamy sees in it is something political for AU.

Malcolm Turnbull seeks to reassure Australians the local economy managed by a Coalition government can withstand any instability in global markets, in the wake of the UK's decision to Brexit.

I thought they were a caretaker govt;

Yes, I join in the celebration!

The smaller states are, the more freedom to ordinary people.

Like the British are leaving Brussels, I'm looking forward to the day when the Australian states also declare their independence and LEAVE the central bureaucracy of Canberra.

Hopefully the likes of Turnbull, Bishop, Obama and Shorten will now keep their nose out of other peoples affairs. It seems the populace don't enjoy the socialist ignoring the wishes of the working class.

David Cameron has just announced he's stepping down in October.

I could not believe it when Britain joined the EU and abandoned NZ and Aus for trade. Many Aussies still complain about us having to line up in the 'foreigners' queue at UK customs and after all the help we provided to UK during the war. I still recall us having rations here for dairy products (butter) because we were sending ship loads to UK after the war, and in the 50s. Other stuff as well.

I look forward to hearing of 'Australian' produce in UK shops and seeing 'Made in UK' on products in our shops.

I'd love to have a beer with Graham .....

It appears that the working-class areas voted for the UK to leave the EU, and stronger control over borders and immigration seem to have been major issues.

Is it possible that the Referendum question could have been nuanced a little, say:

"Do you think that the United Kingdom should have stronger control over its immigration policy ?"

OR

"Do you think that all of the national entities within the European Union should have stronger control over their immigration policies ?"

So now it's possible that Scotland (and even Northern Ireland) could hold referenda to remain in the EU and to leave the UK.

So many uncertainties, but a couple of things may not be so uncertain: that Corbyn and Cameron will not be leaders of their parties by Christmas ? That, in view of the financial dependence of Scotland on London, a Scottish Referendum to leave the UK and stay in the EU, may not pass ?

OR even

That Northern Ireland may vote to unite with the Republic of Ireland, at last ?

Joe

I'll have a beer in celebration as well; and a few more as other countries leave as well.

Dear Graham,

There are pros and cons for leaving the EU:

http://www.theweek.co.uk/eu-referendum

And undoubtedly there will be a variety of opinions
on this issue.

Here's one coming from a well-known Englishman:

"We live in a vibrant and connected world where together
as a people we are strong. For our children and their
children we should be facing the problems of the world
together and not alone."
(David Beckham).

Considering the European Union seems to have halted the penchant of those countries to periodically beat the daylights out of each other, it can't be all bad.

cont'd ...

Overheard in a restaurant:

"Did you hear that the UK has left the EU?
What next? First the EU, then the UN, and
eventually the planet?"

Hot damn! A round ball footy player who could earn more mega-millions out of continued UK membership of the EU is opposed to change.

Perhaps that is one of the things wrong with the now previous arrangement, that some elites got what they wanted but the general population did not.

One of the really contemptible reactions leading up to the vote was Labor's and leftists' assertion that democracy wasn't everyone voting, as in a referendum, it was pollies denying the electorate that choice and making decisions for them. Typical of the totalitarian left who don't believe that their own voters can be relied upon to make the correct (as the left sees it) decision if given the chance.

There is the very same tactic being used by the totalitarian left in Australia where they are trying to deny the electorate a vote on trashing the Marriage Act for 'same sex marriage'.

Yep I'll certainly have a beer on it Graham.

A great result, which will ultimately lead to the end of the EU, & it's attempt at total control of people by bureaucrats. Hell with any luck it could be the beginning of the end of the planet's most corrupt organisation, the UN. Dominos do have that habit of taking others with them.

There is a chance we could see, in the very near future, Boris Johnson as UK PM, the Trump as US president, & anyone but Turnbull Oz PM. There must be a god after all.

If it all came to pass we'd have to be very nice to Poirot. She'd be devastated, He He He.

Accusations of Labor being "totalitarian" regarding
same-sex marriange need to be corrected. After-all
it was Tony Abbott who did not allow a "conscience vote"
on the issue. It was John Howard who changed the Marriage
Act in this country to read that marriage was to be only
between a man and a woman to the exclusion of all others.
Therefore totalitarian does not apply. Perhaps the confusion
lies in the words. What was meant was not that Labor was
"totalitarian," but that the Liberals were "authoritarian."

cont'd ...

As for elites getting what they want?

Now which party has been accused of supporting the
big end of town?

I would have liked a bigger gap in the poll, but a win is a win.

Lets have a referendum on immigration here as well and see what the result is. I'll bet the zero net side would win hands down. We could start by deleting those groups that won't integrate. 'love it or leave'

Can see why they don't want a referendum on same sex 'marriage'

Don't believe that Labor represents the working class.

Here's one take on the seismic shift:

"I spent most of Friday walking around in a daze wondering if I was having an out-of-body experience.

It was partly down to lack of sleep. But it was mostly down to the shock that millions of people I had faith in could be so naive, insular and gullible as to buy the cheap and nasty Little Britain cure-all that had been hawked by a band of dodgy, snake-oil salesmen."

"And as I watched the Prime Minister resign, the Governor of the Bank of England give a state-of-the-nation address as the Pound went through the floor, and ashen-faced politicians admit nobody knows what will happen now, I began to wonder if I’d stepped on to the set of a post-Apocalypse movie.

".....without an economic plan, a trading strategy, or a credible leader, making the average Briton’s future more uncertain than any time since the Blitz."

"How did we allow the comfortable baby-boomer generation to jeopardise the future of our already debt-ridden young people (75% of whom voted to stay in Europe) through some misguided belief that by voting Brexit their home towns would return to the same ethnic mix they had when they were growing up?

I’ll tell you how. By too many people ignoring the facts and willingly buying into the divisive vision of a man who has built a political career whipping up hatred for foreigners.

A public school-educated stockbroker, who wants to shrink the state and let the markets rip, who reinvented himself as a man of the people and convinced millions of disillusioned working-class voters he was on a mission to smash the rich elite he belonged to.

Fair play, Nigel Farage. You did us all up like a Ukipper.

But let’s not give him all the credit. He’s simply part of a three-card trick that has been played on the British people. The biggest con in the history of British voting."

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/congratulations-youve-taken-country-back-8277456#ICID=sharebar_twitter

It's actually quite fascinating witnessing a profound shift such as we've seen in the UK.

One summation was that the whole thing came to a referendum because its sole purpose was to settle divisions within the Tory party and field a challenge to UKIP.

Another likened the result to a dog chasing a car only to amaze itself by catching it....where to next?

"'If you've got money, you vote in ... if you haven't got money, you vote out'"

"What defines these furies is often clear enough: a terrible shortage of homes, an impossibly precarious job market, a too-often overlooked sense that men (and men are particularly relevant here) who would once have been certain in their identity as miners, or steelworkers, now feel demeaned and ignored. The attempts of mainstream politics to still the anger have probably only made it worse: oily tributes to “hardworking families”, or the the fingers-down-a-blackboard trope of “social mobility”, with its suggestion that the only thing Westminster can offer working-class people is a specious chance of not being working class anymore."

"We all know the cruel irony that sits in the midst of all this story: that Britain – or what is left of it – will now take a sharp turn to the right, and the problems that have fed into this moment will only get worse. Well, there we are. History is rarely logical; until it really bites them..."

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/commentisfree/2016/jun/24/divided-britain-brexit-money-class-inequality-westminster?CMP=share_btn_tw

This vote demonstrates the inherent instability of Capitalism. Frighten the people enough and they will do exactly what you want.

If its not the Treaty of Versailles, then its the European Union. The trouble with Europeans, they never bothered to learn to speak English. I think its time Germany invaded Poland again!

What about the ramifications for AU that Grahamy is delighted about. Turnbull crying on the brit PM's shoulder by phone. I bet that helped, he wouldn't even know who he was.

AU sacked Abbott and the brits have sacked the EU. Sounds fair to me.

The sad thing about Brexit is that it took 40 years for them to wake up to what was happening. Some say Britain left it too late, but they can now try to rebuild a decent society again.

How long will it take for Australia to wake up to the follies of multiculturalism and high immigration?

We should look at what muslim immigration has done to the UK and what is happening in Europe and take action. The suggested Utopia of multiculturalism never happened and wont happen. The mess of the Middle East and ISIS is the most likely scenario. The muslims have been telling us for years that their long term aim is to take us over and impose Sharia law.

How many more terrorist attacks and how many more girls raped before our politicians wake up. Only a week ago they killed 19 girls because they would not voluntary become sex slaves. Yes they burned them alive in a steel cage. This is the true face of Islam. What about New Years Eve in Germany or the gang rapes in Sydney in 2000? Or the 1400 girls raped in UK? Do we just ignore these happenings.

No we need action now. Britain may have left it too late but we have not and we can start at this election by ignoring the major parties and voting anti immigration.

Banjo's post ably sums up the disaffection felt by many of those who voted "leave".

When I studied history at uni, we were taught that historians looked at things either from a macro or a micro level. Historians will have a fun time dissecting this referendum and the machinations that led to Brexit.

On one level - one that is devoid of economic argument - it was emotion and passion and disenfranchisement that led to a "leave" vote. Many feel a kind a alienation in their country where the trickle-down is either non-existent or trickles anywhere but where they are. There have been numerous reports of people voting leave because they didn't really expect it to get up - and would now change their vote. Others merely brought into the "foreigner" question - having been consistently tweaked by the likes of Farage and his supporters - and voted accordingly.

The second most googled question by UK residents after the result was "What is the EU?"...which displays the kind of disengagement that abounds in some quarters....scary ignorance in fact!

And then there appears to be a feeling that so much of the push was concentrated on race/religion that nothing else was taken into account.

"A pyrrhic victory? Boris Johnson wakes up to the costs of Brexit"

"“If we are victorious in one more battle … we shall be utterly ruined.”

"In theory, Johnson woke up on Friday morning having won the war...."

"He has everything he ever wanted. It’s just that somehow, as he fought his way through booing crowds on his Islington doorstep before holding an uncharacteristically subdued press conference on Friday morning, it didn’t really look that way."

"The scariest possibility, however, is that he actually meant it. That like most of Westminster, Johnson always imagined we’d grudgingly vote to stay in the end. That he too missed the anger bubbling beneath the surface, and is now as shocked as anyone else by what has happened."

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/24/a-pyrrhic-victory-boris-johnson-wakes-up-to-the-costs-of-brexit?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Poirot
But you're against free trade and profit is evil, remember? You're only making an exhibition of your complete confusion and constant self-contradiction.

All
All the Bremainers are just sore losers because their elitist statist totalitarian bullying and creed of unlimited government power and endless confiscation got its come-uppance for once in a blue moon.

If the case against Brexit is only that Britain will face protectionist policies from the EU, that's an argument against protectionism, not in favour of Britain joining in with their hostility to human freedom.

All the arguments for Bremain come down to a single false assumption that government is the magic fountain of all economic and social goods; and a desire to get something for nothing by having the State take it from someone else.

In the final analysis, Bremain is nothing but infantile whining for handouts from Germany: pathetic. They deserved to lose many times over.

Although ER II is a wee bit Scottish there probably won't be any Windsor clan in Edinburgh castle. The Horse Guards will pull up at the Tweed river . The sound of hammering will be the Corps of Engineers building a War Office in a new Edinburgh military tattoo. The first issue will be Scots Nuclear Policy and controlling the hotheads .

why is it when the people vote that the marxist spit the dummy so badly. Seems like many of them were not spanked as a child. They claim to believe in democracy and are like spoilt brats when they lose.

Listening to the commentary and news this morning I've been struck by how sorely the losers are losing. The hyperbole and invective is breath-taking. Apparently there are some Brits who want to run the vote again so they can have another chance at winning! So now we know who the real democrats are.

And we have our own Poirot, who has never been known as a champion of free markets, stock markets, or any other sort of market, apart from maybe a street market, berating us because the pound has taken a tumble and stocks are down.

The fact of the matter is that the EU is a one-of-a-kind beast, and there is no evidence that there will be any cost at all to the UK for not being part of it.

Most countries in the world are not parts of an integrating, polyglot, geographical and economic union, and there is no evidence that it has held any of us back. You don't have to have political union to have free trade. But the same people who tell us Free Trade Agreements are bad tell us the UK should stay in the EU.

Without the EU the UK will be just like Australia, except much closer to the action, and with the major financial centre of the world in its capital city. It will be able to be flexible, prompt and innovative in its dealings with the rest of the world, and will become even more of an economic powerhouse.

A lower pound will help (if in fact it doesn't bounce right back), and stock prices on one day mean nothing except that everyone is sitting on their hands and wondering whether to buy or sell because they (completely incompetently and amazingly) failed to factor in the possibility that the referendum question would be carried.

One other good thing about this is that it should put the EU on notice that it needs to change its ways. Apparently other countries, such as the Netherlands, and perhaps France, are also considering their positions. This will be good for world growth.

An excellent result, surely proving that 'ordinary' people are fed up with being dictated to by elites. And, as Graham says, the petulance of the losers was outstanding, but predictable.

The Brits have got back their country and sovereignty. Good on them!

This is a clear warning to the out-of-touch politicians in Australia and all other supposedly democratic countries. The people have had enough.

Yes Graham, and if it keeps one Muslim extremist from entering Britain, its a vote well placed.

John Howard got a kick in the form of the Tamper issue, this one will be a huge shot in the arm for the libs.

Poirot, smart investors have already factored in the carnage, and if they didn't, then I guess they're not smart investors. The ones who should be worried about their jobs are the pollsters because they can't take a trick.

I think this will ensure a libs win because all labor have is negative stuff to report on and people will fear that. Turnbull will win then he will be replaced, that's my tip. Just who by will depend on if and by how much Abbott wins his seat.

The academia would not let Geert Wilders speak in this country and tried to have him banned as an extremist. I wonder if they will try the same deceit with Boris shpould he become PM in Britian. Naturally they are always silent about speakers who call for the death of homosexuals etc. You know the sort Malcolm likes to dine with.

I wonder how the young people of the UK feel about
their future today, and how long will it take
before Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland
decide to vote independent?

Presumably they would feel exactly as they did when they voted for independence. Empowered and free.

Optimistic that things can only improve with Brits exercising and being responsible for their own choices.

But why discount the obvious rational basis for their decision? Can't voters be trusted with decisions? Are voters, especially the young not to be trusted and they need someone else to make their decisions for them?

Maybe that is part of what they were objecting to. Decisions being limited and made for them and without consultation.

Next?

I liked this quote, from Tim Blair's blog.

"Under Merkel, Germany gained a million welfare recipients and encouraged the UK to leave the EU".

There is some talk about having a referendum on leaving the UN.

The socialists are not a happy lot today. Bloody whingers!

Just came across this interesting article courtesy of a friend. Written days before the vote, but lays the case out pretty strongly. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/12/brexit-vote-is-about-the-supremacy-of-parliament-and-nothing-els/

Dear Graham,

I spend a bit of time on reddit whose demographic really doesn't reflect mine but it tends to give me a younger persons perspective that is hard to find elsewhere. Besides which it is a place I go for most of my international news.

The perspective of younger UK votes is one of shock and dismay. They have embraced a more global world and see the Brexit as a victory for the 45 plus crowd. There is a sense that the older demographic lived through the security of the welfare state and the benefits common market but are drawing up the drawbridge behind them.

It is reflected in what we are seeing in this country. The generation who were the beneficiaries of free education, a pension scheme and affordable housing now want less taxes, over inflated Super schemes and negative gearing and lower CGT to remain.

I see the Brexit as less about xenophobia and more about a generation not wanting to share with migrants, refugees or the younger generation.

This is not something to celebrate but rather just another sign of the malaise of selfishness and greed, both corporate and individual.

It is both sobering and sad. At least Bill, to a degree, recognises it for what it is. As a baby boomer I am really starting to appreciate the resentment directed toward us.

Now would not be a good time to buy a house in Brussels. With so much less money the EU is going to have to sack huge numbers of bureaucrats.

Seeing as how the EU has become a bureaucrat paradise, being of the bureaucrat, by the bureaucrat & for only the bureaucrat, it is going to be wonderful to watch.

Only a radical lefty, leaning towards communism could really believe that the EU ever did anything good for the UK. It has long been a creature of France & Germany, applying retribution to them, for being so successful in war & peace for so many centuries.

Now England will not be shipping boatloads of money to Brussels, they need to get rid of the hugely costly Scotland, or at least shovelling train loads of money north.

England can be strong again, but will need pretty pragmatic hard headed leadership to get there.

So will we, & we have no way of getting it, for a long time if we don't apply the brexit formula here, & chuck the current unelected prime minister into the garbage bin of history.

Dear Hasbeen,

Where do you drag this guff from?

There are only a little over EU 55,000 civil servants and other employees serving over half a billion Europeans.

Australia has over 3 times that number of federal civil servants looking after 25,000,000.

The EU administration is highly efficient.

EU money targeted poorer councils in England. As a struggling area Corwall for instance received over half a billion pounds over the last 10 years from the EU toward stimulating jobs. They voted to leave the EU but the council is calling for the funds to be guaranteed. The council leader now says;

“We will be insisting that Cornwall receives investment equal to that provided by the EU programme which has averaged £60m per year over the last ten years.”

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-cornwall-issues-plea-for-funding-protection-after-county-overwhelmingly-votes-in-favour-of-a7101311.html

What would be your message to the people of Cornwall?

Written like a true, overpaid bureaucrat Steely.

What a great system , the poms can send billions to Brussels, they can give billions to French farmers, & send back a few millions to a couple of councils.

With billions less to spend they should be able to get rid of 15 or 20 thousands of those bureaucrats. As I said, don't buy a house in Brussels, or a French dairy farm for that matter.

*The EU administration is highly efficient.*

Is that why they move the whole shindig to Strasbourg for 4 days on a regular basis and then move everything back to Brussels again? Come on, EU admin is a nightmare.

The reality is that EU honchos are trying to blackmail Britain and anyone else who refuses to take orders from Brussels. If you dare to disagree, your economy will collapse. They could of course simply have free trade between European countries and the problem would be solved. But that would take away Brussels political control of the masses and the few at the top who control things.

Steeleredux

So you openly admit that there is nothing to the bremain case than squalling to suck off the teat of the Germans.

"And we have our own Poirot.."

Aw....shucks, Graham : )

"....who has never been known as a champion of free markets, stock markets, or any other sort of market, apart from maybe a street market, berating us because the pound has taken a tumble and stocks are down."

I wasn't berating you. I was merely noting the shock of the exit for financial markets.

JKJ says: "But you're against free trade and profit is evil, remember? You're only making an exhibition of your complete confusion and constant self-contradiction."

The reality is that Brexit has nothing to do with my views.

Obviously, if you're going to leave the world's largest trading bloc, one would expect some sort of grand plan to be waiting in the wings.

There doesn't appear to be one.

The vote comes in, the pound plunges, the markets go berserk, the PM resigns - it's extraordinary!

What started out as a stunt to appease factions in the Tories and UKIP seems to have snowballed out of control.

Again: "The British are frantically Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2016/06/24/the-british-are-frantically-googling-what-the-eu-is-hours-after-voting-to-leave-it/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_switch-google-1145a-mobile%3Ahomepage%2Fstory

I mean Lol!....

Farage was swanning around whipping up EU resentment saying that the money flowing from Britain to the EU could be better spent on the NHS...he even had that sentiment plastered over campaign buses.

Here's what he now says a day after the vote:

"NHS might have to be replaced by private health insurance"

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nigel-farage-nhs-might-have-to-be-replaced-by-private-health-insurance-9988904.html

When all is said and done, this is the most fascinating turn of events since the Berlin Wall came down.

I mean, I'm engrossed...whichever way it plays out

England never, never should have been enslaved by Brussels. With Scotland sent back to its Norse roots at last England will be its own kingdom. Gibraltar , Ulster and Falklands fly the flag and 2 aircraft carriers to boot. Will Philip visit to thank Tony for leading the way?

Here's some news...

"3 Brexit promises campaigners had wriggled out of before breakfast on EU referendum results day"

As previously mentioned:

"Nigel Farage told Good Morning Britain it was a "mistake" for the Leave campaign to claim there'd be £350m a week extra for the NHS after Brexit .

Asked to guarantee that money would go to the NHS he said: "No, and I would never have made that claim. That was one of the mistakes that the Leave campaign made."

On immigration...

"Speaking on BBC News this morning, Tory MEP Daniel Hannan said: "People are grown up and they understand this isn't something that can happen tomorrow.

"No one has ever suggested there is going to be no immigration.

"There will be EU nationals watching this programme now and I want to underline - no one has suggested any change in their status."

Plus...invoking Article 50 straight away

"Brexit campaigner Dr Liam Fox said: "A lot of things were said in advance of this referendum that we might want to think about again and that (invoking article 50) is one of them.

"I think that it doesn't make any sense to trigger article 50 without having a period of reflection first, for the Cabinet to determine exactly what it is that we're going to be seeking and in what timescale.

"And then you have to also consider what is happening with the French elections and the German elections next year and the implications that that might have for them.

"So a period of calm, a period of reflection, to let it all sink in and to work through what the actual technicalities are."

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/3-brexit-promises-campaigners-wriggled-8271762

Regarding Article 50:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/24/britain-votes-to-leave-the-eu-what-happens-now-that-brexit-is-a/

Hmm....

Talking of the "plan" that appears to have been overlooked...

Here's one called the "Have Your Cake and Eat It Too Plan":

"Cornwall votes for Brexit and then pleads to keep EU funding"

"The Cornish council has issued a plea for “protection” following the United Kingdom’s vote to leave the European Union.

Cornwall, which has a poor economy and as such has received millions of pounds in subsidies from the EU each year for over a decade, voted decisively to Leave.

But this money is now threatened following the severing of ties with the EU.

John Pollard, the leader of Cornwall council said: “Now that we know the UK will be leaving the EU we will be taking urgent steps to ensure that the UK Government protects Cornwall’s position in any negotiations.

“We will be insisting that Cornwall receives investment equal to that provided by the EU programme which has averaged £60m per year over the last ten years.”

European money has helped develop infrastructure, universities and broadband internet in the county. From 2007 to 2013, €654m was given to pay for these projects, the Financial Times reported.

But a statement on the council website posted on Friday said prior to the referendum said the county was reassured by the Leave side that withdrawing from the EU would not affect the funding already allocated by Brussels.

Leave campaigners also promised the county would not be worse off in terms of the investment it receives. “We are seeking urgent confirmation from Ministers that this is the case,” the statement added."

Etc....

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-cornwall-issues-plea-for-funding-protection-after-county-overwhelmingly-votes-in-favour-of-a7101311.html

"The reality is that Brexit has nothing to do with my views.

Obviously, if you're going to leave the world's largest trading bloc, one would expect some sort of grand plan to be waiting in the wings."

But we've both just agreed that your views are irrelevant, remember?

The idea that you know how to structure the world economy is just laughable stupidity, and your openly displaying that you fail to understand this only makes a more complete fool of yourself.

All of the Bremain arguments are based on the assumptions either that the super-state showers material benefits on its subjects without corresponding cost anywhere - infantile creationist superstition - or wrongly blame the Brits for the EU's protectionism.

https://www.youtube.com/attribution_link?a=UyZGv_V3RJA&u=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D2gm9q8uabTs%26feature%3Dshare

JKJ,

"The idea that you know how to structure the world economy is just laughable stupidity, and your openly displaying that you fail to understand this only makes a more complete fool of yourself."

What is your problem?

I point out that everyone seems to have been caught on the hop with the Brexit result - and you deliver your usual sad hackneyed spiel.

Lol!....how many times have we heard it?

JKJ disagrees with fellow poster and faster than a duffer without an argument, he whips out the ad hom.

Anyhoo...

"Brexit petition demanding change to EU referendum rule to force second vote gains more than a million signatures"

"More than a million people have signed a petition demanding a second EU referendum as the UK continues to reel from the vote for a Brexit.

Signatories are calling for a new rule to be implemented stipulating that polls on the European Union with a majority under 60 per cent and turnout under 75 per cent must be re-started."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-petition-latest-eu-referendum-rules-change-force-second-vote-poll-government-a7102486.html

Didn't take long...

The wheels haven't fallen off yet - but they appear somewhat wobbly.

Hi Poirot, I was sorry to read that you are not in favor of the Slave Market. A careful analyst of this Pommy vote, by the Usual Suspects on the Forum, has revealed the Poms had in fact voted to give a ringing endorsement to the Turnbull government, don't want a jack of gay marriage in Australia, want all Muslims here locked up, and throw away the key. Also the Poms want it known, they are all voted out, and wont be fronting up in Oz next week to put Malcolm back in, unless its necessary.

I think the Brexit vote was rigged (because they removed exit polls entirely which exist as an indicator of fraud) and the outcome was supposed to go the other way, but they miscalculated the amount of rigging required and were overwhelmed by Brexit votes.

The demographic of voters were that the younger generation wanted to stay with the EU and the older generation wanted things back the way it was before joining the EU.

Older voters were able to remember how much better things were whilst the younger generation only ever knew life as part of the EU.

On the whole its a shame Britain ruined it for themselves being part of the EU and its karma for England for their past imperialism.
But I'm glad for the British people who now have the ability to take control of their nation once again and make their own decisions.

It will not be easy for them, and I'm sure other groups will try to undermine them and see them fail, to prevent further countries exiting the EU.

Britain has voted decisively to leave the EU. What this means for the Britain and the EU depends largely on whether there is a bitter divorce or a conscious uncoupling. While there is clearly raw emotions on both sides, the EU stands to lose nearly as much as the UK in a complete separation. For example the UK is a massive market for French farm produce, cars etc that they can buy far cheaper from Japan or the US. Similarly the EU is a great market for the UK's efficient workforce. While some EU politicians have called for the UK to leave immediately and totally, already some like Merkel have realised the damage that this would cause to both sides especially with the strong anti EU sentiment in many countries in the EU.

The strong anti EU feelings have long been stoked by a resentment against laws and regulations being imposed by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels, and the recent crises in Greece and Germany have so clearly shown that one country's arrogance can truly stuff it up for everyone else.

I believe that the EU's refusal to compromise on the UK's membership conditions was the final tipping point, and that this vote might be the shock that triggers significant change in the EU before Brexit becomes a contagion.

"The Brexit figureheads had no plan besides exploiting populist fears and dismissing experts who rubbished their thinking"

"Where was the champagne at the Vote Leave headquarters? The happy tears and whoops of joy? If you believed Boris Johnson and Michael Gove, the Brexit vote was a moment of national liberation, a day that Nigel Farage said our grateful children would celebrate with an annual bank holiday.

Johnson and Gove had every reason to celebrate. The referendum campaign showed the only arguments that matter now in England are on the right. With the Labour leadership absent without leave and the Liberal Democrats and Greens struggling to be heard, the debate was between David Cameron and George Osborne, defending the status quo, and the radical right, demanding its destruction. Johnson and Gove won a dizzying victory with the potential to change every aspect of national life, from workers’ rights to environmental protection.

Yet they gazed at the press with coffin-lid faces and wept over the prime minister they had destroyed...."

"...Johnson and Gove are the worst journalist politicians you can imagine: pundits who have prospered by treating public life as a game. Here is how they play it. They grab media attention by blaring out a big, dramatic thought. An institution is failing? Close it. A public figure blunders? Sack him...."

"Johnson and Gove carried with them a second feature of unscrupulous journalism: the contempt for practical questions. Never has a revolution in Britain’s position in the world been advocated with such carelessness. The Leave campaign has no plan. And that is not just because there was a shamefully under-explored division between the bulk of Brexit voters who wanted the strong welfare state and solid communities of their youth and the leaders of the campaign who wanted Britain to become an offshore tax haven. Vote Leave did not know how to resolve difficulties with Scotland, Ireland, the refugee camp at Calais, and a thousand other problems, and did not want to know either."

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/25/boris-johnson-michael-gove-eu-liars?CMP=share_btn_tw

Every time the socialists think they’re going to help the poor by promoting unlimited government power, every time it ends up a huge nasty dysfunctional corrupt mess, and every time it takes the socialists by complete surprise. I mean honestly, these people are operating at the intellectual level of a fish.

What is wonderful about brexit is the stammering uncomprehension of the smug elites who act as if they’ve just been slapped with a wet fish. They can’t believe that the ordinary people have actually been permitted to say “NO” to the governing elites for once.

Who backed EU power issuing directives on banana curvature? The Poirots and Steelereduxs of this world. Don’t laugh. That’s what these people actually think.

Merkel invited the whole world to come to the EU and live on government handouts and these people actually think that’s wonderful, because they think government is just a fountain of endless freebies with no connection to the reality that government confiscates every penny that it gets from the ordinary people.

It was entirely predictable that the single currency would be seized on by the redistributionists as a tool for their schemes of treating people as herds, some entitled to live at the expense of others, and others bound to supply the servile involuntary labour. Then when the whole thing goes pear shaped, the socialists have got the gall to blame the markets!

The Eurocrats were dreaming of a global superpower single army, backed by a huge treasury and taxes, and talking of it fighting Russia, and Poirot can only think to respond to the public’s rejection of this dysfunctional state by crawling up the arse of the elites.

Why? Because like all socialists, Poirot cannot comprehend the idea of economic activity that is not the outcome of a government “plan”. Stalinism redux: people as cattle belonging to government.

If you study her posts, you’ll find there is no logical coherence, just disconnected snippets of snippy groupthink that she’s got from her statist organs.

Post us a few more links from the ABC, Poirot, show us what you’re made of.

Maybe I can't interpret a simple map in a newspaper but it seemed to me that Cornwall voted to Remain - in fact, western England right up into Wiltshire. So London, Cornwall, Scotland and northern Ireland (and the Isle of Man) voted to remain.

A new referendum in Scotland is 'highly likely', according to Sturgeon. A vote for Scottish independence is also 'highly likely'. This will put pressure on Northern Ireland to have its own referendum, and to either stand alone, seek to merge with Ireland, or, as part of a United Ireland, seek some sort of loose Celtic Confederation with Scotland.

And again, there's Cornwall: IF the above sequence of events occur, will there be pressure from Cornwall to have the right to carry out its own referendum for independence, and then arrangements on forming some sort of loose association with Ireland and Scotland ?

And even though Wales (except for Cardiff) voted to Brexit, would this hypothetical course of events influence the Welsh people to Brukxit and join a Celtic Confederation as well ?

Of course, if Scotland voted to leave the UK, England and Wales would have to hold elections for a bi-national parliament without Scottish representation. Similarly Northern Island. And Cornwall. And even the Isle of Man.

Interesting times !

Joe

"Post us a few more links from the ABC, Poirot, show us what you’re made of"

Forgive me, JKJ, how dare I post analysis from people far wiser and more informed than you!

The links I have posted have been the most informed content on this thread. Your contribution has consisted in large part of ad hom to Poirot.

Should we suffice with a load of hot air and ad hom from the likes of you blathering away intermittently?

Euro this, Euro that, blather, blah, blah....

Where is your considered analysis of UK prospects in light of the vote to exit the EU without a cogent economic plan?

Does that not concern you ensconced as you are in your far-right fairyland reverie?

Now I realise the likes of UKIP and Conservative "leavers" door-knocking and employing the airwaves to tell folks they are going to stop immigration - and even boot people out...that money currently going to the EU will be used for the NHS (neither of which is going to happen) would appeal to some.

Brexit appears to be the most careless, disorganised, xenophobically-driven, hastily ordained conclusion of modern times - and all because of fewding factions in the far-right of UK politics.

Great stuff!

Here's your link:

"So, here’s the thing. This was never a referendum on the EU. It was a referendum on the modern world, and yesterday the frightened, parochial lizard-brain of Britain voted out, out, out, and today we've all woken up still strapped onto this ghost-train as it hurtles off the tracks. Leave voters are finding they care less about immigration now that their pension pots are under threat. Maybe one of the gurning pundits promising them pride and sovereignty should have mentioned that, but they were too busy lying about the NHS. The curtain has been torn away and now we all have to look at the men behind it. They are not good men."

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/06/i-want-my-country-back

P,

"The Brexit figureheads had no plan besides exploiting populist fears and dismissing experts who rubbished their thinking"

Sounds just like Shorten.

Loudmouth,

"Maybe I can't interpret a simple map in a newspaper but it seemed to me that Cornwall voted to Remain - in fact, western England right up into Wiltshire. So London, Cornwall, Scotland and northern Ireland (and the Isle of Man) voted to remain."

Nope...

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/06/24/europe/eu-referendum-britain-divided/

Poirot
Okay, just what I expected. Assumptions that everyone gets richer from government handouts, and vitriolic bitter dog-in-the-manger ad hominem from sore losers in big government openly despising the idea that the public should have any say.

All
Notice that the remain camp depends entirely on the idea that people get free handouts? And notice they never actually account in any rational sense for this idea? There is no concept that these benefits are being taken from society in the first place, strained through two huge coercive bureaucracies, and then a fraction either given back to the people it was taken from, or to someone else? All we ever get is this fantasy-land where "you" (subject/peasant) are better off under this regime without any rational account, or ability to give a rational account, at any stage.

Thanks, Jardine - goldfish socialism, yes, that sums up 150 years of socialist history :)

IF Scotland (and even Northern Ireland and/or Cornwall) vote to leave the UK, here are two or three reflections:

* the Labour vote in what remains of Britain will drastically shrink without Scottish etc. voters. The Conservatives, under Johnson or whoever, will rule for decades.

* In the Brexit-voting areas, if we subtract Scotland etc., the actual vote for Brexit must have been closer to 60 %. How did native-born, and older migrants, vote ? Perhaps 70 % or more for Brexit ?

* Given the Scottish contribution to Britain's intellectual and political life over the past couple of hundred years, the UK gene pool will shrink appreciably without Scotland, as English people are forced to rely on their own limited intellectual resources to run their affairs. If Wales stays with England, that might buy them some time.

Joe

//London, Cornwall, Scotland and northern Ireland (and the Isle of Man) voted to remain.//

Turns out that as a Crown Dependency, the Isle of Man did not get to vote in the referendum.

Gibraltar also voted to remain - about 95%. The Spanish are talking about co-sovereignty.

Seems that it might be more than just the EU which is going to shrink.

Thanks, Poirot, you're right, I was using an outdated map. I should have done my homework:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-36616028

Every single major region of England and Wales voted to Brexit, except London. Every other one. Amazing.

So here's another irony: if England and Wales are left to go it alone, what remains of United Kingdom will be ruled from London, which voted to Remain - and all of it ruled by a Conservative government, whose leaders voted to Remain, for the foreseeable future.

So how long can that last ?

Joe

The authoritative and respected journal, The Guardian, has this:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/25/view-wales-town-showered-eu-cash-votes-leave-ebbw-vale?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=GU+Today+AUS+v1+-+AUS+morning+mail+callout&utm_term=179158&subid=14650382&CMP=ema_632

One wonders if the voting age across the UK has been secretly dropped to ten years. Still, democracy says 52 % voted to exit, a majority. Everybody has to cop it sweet. Including the people of Ebbw Vale.

Joe

Toni Lavis " Gibraltar also voted to remain - about 95%. The Spanish are talking about co-sovereignty. Seems that it might be more than just the EU which is going to shrink."
It's not just China which is expanding, the flight decks of Great England are calculated at 3.5 to 4.5 acres each which indicates a casual approach to maths.

"The HMS Queen Elizabeth will be used by all three sectors of the UK Armed Forces and will provide eight acres of sovereign territory which can be deployed around the world. " ( that means the QE Class including POW ....which is not a very reassuring name for the military).

*Where is your considered analysis of UK prospects in light of the vote to exit the EU without a cogent economic plan?*

I guess the British will sign a free trade agreement with the EU, just like Switzerland or Norway. German industry is certainly pushing for it, as they need Britain as a customer of their goods. If the Eurocrats refuse, "to teach those British a lesson" they can be accused of blackmail, because the British public don't want to dance to the Brussels political tune.

Yabby,

"I guess the British will sign a free trade agreement with the EU, just like Switzerland or Norway...."

Oh right...

"During the interview, Mr Hannan was forced to agree that if an independent UK negotiated a trade deal with the EU, similar to that of Norway, they would have to accept workers from other European countries."

"Newsnight presenter Even Davis accused a top Brexit campaigner of misleading the public after he admitted leaving the EU may not cut immigration.

Evan Davies told MEP Daniel Hannan his admission Britain would still have to accept the free movement of labour was “completely at odds with what the public think they’ve just voted for."

At one point the exasperated presenter held his head in his hands, before saying: "I’m sorry we’ve just been through three months of agony on the issue of immigration.

“The public have been led to believe that what they have voted for is an end to free movement.”

"Mr Davies said: "Why didn’t you say this in the campaign?

"Why didn’t you say in the campaign that you were wanting a scheme where we have free movement of labour?"

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/newsnights-evan-davis-loses-brexit-8281875#ICID=sharebar_twitter

Poirot, there is a stand off going on about this very fact in Switzerland, where the Swiss have defied the EU blackmailers. We shall see next year how it ends. Fact is that around Europe people are sick of being invaded by so called refugees and others and want some control of their borders, so the Eurocrats might just have to concede defeat. Economic blackmail should not be acceptable and eventually people power is the best way to defeat it.

Yabby,

My main point on this thread has been incredulity that there appears to be no significant plan for Brexit.

Now we find out that the simple folk who were led by the nose to vote pretty much solely on immigration were fulsomely mislead.

These folk presumably would make up a sizeable percentage of the UK residents who were furiously googling "What is the EU" in the hours after they voted to leave it.

So far the men who headed the Brexit campaign have spent the post-referendum period attempting to reverse out of their pre-referendum spiel.

The satirical theme appears to be that Britain should just pretend it never happened - and the rest of us will all go along with it...a la George on Seinfeld when he lost his job.

*My main point on this thread has been incredulity that there appears to be no significant plan for Brexit.*

Poirot, at your age you should at least have learned that life is what happens, whilst you are making other plans, as the law of unintended consequences is never far away.

Any plan can be ruined by circumstances beyond our control, so much better to have an approximate plan which can be altered as those circumstances change. So flexibility is the key. That is the case in Europe. It is time that they Eurocrats stopped being so dictatorial and gave the people what they want, not trying to blackmail them.
Perhaps they should let Nigel Farage negotiate with the EU Eurocrats, at least he tells them the truth as it is.

Sounds like the young who are googling what the EU is, are not much different to many of our voters.

I think that Farage made some great points. It is not up to him to decide where every cent saved on EU costs is spent, he does not run the Govt. Esssentially however, it will be a net saving to Britain of 10 billion a year and the Govt is free to spend that where people want it to be spent.

Some times integrity matters more than money and one has to take a stand. People are sick of having lost their democratic rights to Brussels and most want their countries back, along with free trade amongst countries, and some kind of control of the movement of people, which is yet to be negotiated and agreed on. If the EU has any kind of integrity, they will let the people decide, not try to use economic blackmail to force and scare the population into submission.

Yabby,

"Any plan can be ruined by circumstances beyond our control, so much better to have an approximate plan which can be altered as those circumstances change..."

Which is positively spiffing advice if one has planned a picnic by the seaside and the weather is looking a bit dodgy. However, removing one's country from a economic trading bloc should at east require a modicum of forethought...I'm sure you'd agree.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/faisal-islam-brexit-no-plan_uk_576fe22ee4b0d2571149cffd

"“I said to him, so where’s the plan? Can we see the Brexit plan now?” Islam told Botting, without naming the MP specifically.

He said the pro-Leave Tory replied: “There is no plan. The Leave campaign don’t have a post-Brexit plan.”

According to Islam, the MP then pointed toward the Houses of Parliament and said: “Number 10 should have had a plan”.

Gawd!

"Perhaps they should let Nigel Farage negotiate with the EU Eurocrats, at least he tells them the truth as it is."

Lol!...Farage is the biggest con-artist of the lot.

Here's what he had daubed on the side of "leave" campaign buses:

"We send the EU £350 million each week....Let's fund our NHS instead...Vote Leave"

Here's what he says after the result:

""Nigel Farage told Good Morning Britain it was a "mistake" for the Leave campaign to claim there'd be £350m a week extra for the NHS after Brexit .

Asked to guarantee that money would go to the NHS he said: "No, and I would never have made that claim. That was one of the mistakes that the Leave campaign made."

Just as a matter of interest, since the UK is not planning a picnic at the seaside, but trying to figure which way to go next - here are some universities apparently dependent on EU funding:

Southhampton - 91.35%

Bedfordshire - 91.06 %

Coventry - 71.83%

Middlesex - 68.83%

To name a few - but you get the picture.

When an economy is so fundamentally tied to a prior arrangement, holding a referendum that facilitates "leave" and having "no plan" is insanity.

Hi Poirot,

As usual, I agree with you. I suppose it's easy to be wise after the event, but it's as if Britain sleep-walked into this debacle. Even the question seemed poorly thought-out: why such an all-or-nothing question - IN or OUT ? Why not something like 'Do you think that all the nation-states within the EU should have more power to control their borders, and Brussels less ?' Or 'Should the European Union focus more on economic co-ordination and, for the time being, leave political integration on the back-burner ?'

Of course, it's likely that the Brexit camp never really though that they could carry the vote, so they could make all sorts of claims. A bit like the Greens here ironically: they had no Plan B.

So a ham-fisted Question was put to the British people and to everyone's surprise, it got up, just. As you say, like a dog chasing a truck and catching it: 'What do we do now' ?

So will Britain fragment, back to its composition roughly in 1600 ? Will some regions, like Cornwall or Wales, want another vote, now that they realise that EU subsidies will dry up ? And most ironically of all, will London ('Bremain') save the financial skins of the rest of England and Wales ('Brexit') ?

Fukuyama said it was the 'End of History ?', with the question mark. He might have got that bit right.

Cheers,

Joe

Poirot I remind you that the British Govt has not triggered Article 50, simply gave the chance for the public to express their opinion, which is indeed a good thing. There is plenty of time to now work out a detailed plan. As long as they don't trigger Article 50, they can take as long as they like. The broad plan is there. It is just a question to see how reasonable the Eurocrats will be, or if indeed they are a bunch of blackmailers.

University funding. Gee whizz. So the EU takes billions from Britain and gives a bit back to universities and others. There is no reason that cannot be done directly. At the end of the day there will still be 10 billion left, to spend on the NHS if they wish. It is indeed not for Farage to decide, as he is unfortunately not part of the Govt, so is correct, it will not be his decision. He did however highlight the possibility.

Yabby,

"Poirot I remind you that the British Govt has not triggered Article 50, simply gave the chance for the public to express their opinion, which is indeed a good thing. There is plenty of time to now work out a detailed plan. As long as they don't trigger Article 50, they can take as long as they like...."

You are right...it's up to the British Govt to invoke Article 50.

"...The broad plan is there..."

No it's not.

It's hastily being cobbled together as we speak.

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/06/lagarde-brexit/488852/

"Lagarde spoke at the opening session of the annual Aspen Ideas Festival, which is co-hosted by the Aspen Institute and The Atlantic. She said that the IMF’s internal simulations did not forecast a happy future. Although Lagarde was careful and cautious in her remarks, they formed a stark contrast to her warnings ahead of the vote. Back then, she described the range of potential outcomes from “pretty bad” to “very, very bad.”

A great deal, she stressed, now hinges on the degree of uncertainty, and the speed with which unknowns are resolved. “We are hearing at the moment different statements going in different directions,” she said, adding that the IMF has “very strongly encouraged” the parties to “proceed with the transition with the most efficient, predictable way in order to reduce the level of uncertainty which will itself produce the level of risk that we are facing.”

But the U.K. is “the only country that can trigger the mechanism,” she noted. She expressed skepticism that it would want to reverse the outcome of the non-binding referendum, but stressed that the decision as to the next steps—and the obligation to provide resolution—lie with Britain."

My take is that if there was any way that the UK could wriggle out of invoking it - they would.

I don't see a way that could happen as things stand.

......

Yes, Loudmouth, I agree with your post.

Interesting times....

Poirot, essentially what we now have, is a game of chicken. The Hawks within the EU want to punish those evil Brits for not accepting the complete power of Brussels. They don't want other nations having the same ideas, as that would ruin their domination plans completely.

If Britain triggers Article 50, they would essentially be stuffed. 2 years later, they would have to accept any terms presented by Brussels. So that would be a foolish thing to do. If Lagarde wants certainty, then perhaps she should convince the Eurocrats to forget their punishing ideas and give Britain a fair deal, where everyone wins. Britain would then be happy, certainty would return and there you have it. So really it is up to the Eurocrats to see reason, but the squabbling amongst them is sure to not make it that easy, even if it could be. The ball is really in their court.

Yabby,

"If Britain triggers Article 50, they would essentially be stuffed...."

Which makes this announcement interesting:

"The leaders of Germany, France and Italy have vowed there will be no informal talks or deals made with Britain before it formally tells Brussels it is leaving the European Union."

"British Finance Minister George Osborne had said earlier that his country should only activate Article 50 when it has a "clear view" of how its future relations with the bloc would look"

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-06-28/brexit-germany-france-italy-vow-no-informal-talks/7548940

And....

"UK's AAA rating slashed

European shares continued to be pummelled on Monday, with banks making their biggest two-day loss on record.

Europe's bank stocks index fell 7.7 per cent, wiping out more than one-fifth of its value in two days and ending just a handful of points above lows reached at the height of a eurozone debt crisis at the end of 2011.

Ratings agency Standard & Poor's added to the pain, stripping Britain of its last remaining top-notch credit rating.

The UK's rating was slashed by two notches from AAA and Standard & Poor's warned more downgrades could follow.

Mr Osborne said the British economy was strong enough to cope with the volatility caused by the referendum, the biggest blow since World War II to the European goal of forging greater unity.

But his words failed to halt the fall of sterling, which later sank to its lowest level against the US currency for 31 years, continuing the slide that began last week."

There are some great buying opportunities there Poirot, and I continue to be amazed that you think the people who were responsible for the GFC should be a reasonable way of determining what a people should do. When Bill shorten is elected and the Australian sharemarket and the housing market dive I expect you to be equally vociferous in your condemnation of the Australian people who will have voted him in by an even smaller margin than Brexit was passed. Democracy always was a messy business, and we should just let the 1% decide on our behalf via large financial houses appears to be your new mantra.

I'd welcome you to the liberal side of the debate, except part and parcel of being a disciple of Adam Smith and Edmund Burke is a healthy skepticism of the big end of town.

I'm also amazed that you think there ought to be some sort of comprehensive plan in place to cover all eventualities of the Brexit. No other part of life or governance is like that, and it is not as though there was a comprehensive plan for what happened if they stayed in the EU. Don't forget a lot of countries want to negotiate changes to that. Life is contingent. That's just the way it is.

Graham,

Are you seriously trying to defend the "leavers" who mined the fears of the general public on immigration and NHS in order to garner votes, who we now discover lied and mislead the public on those fundamental issues, who had "no" plan at all for the vote to actually succeed?

"...I continue to be amazed that you think the people who were responsible for the GFC should be a reasonable way of determining what a people should do..."

I think you'll find that it was a "lack" of financial regulation that contributed greatly to the GFC - not the opposite.

Regarding Bill Shorten - he'd have to do pretty poorly to match the woeful record of the last three years. Unemployment up, spending up, company profits down 11%, business investment down a whopping 27%, net govt debt up $113b, capital expenditure down....you get the picture.

"I'm also amazed that you think there ought to be some sort of comprehensive plan in place to cover all eventualities of the Brexit..."

I didn't expect all "i"s to be dotted and the "t"s to be crossed...but surely there should have been something more comprehensive in the wings for the eventuality - apart from the knowledge that the general population in places like Britain tends to accept quite readily being conned on such a scale.

Poirot, you made my point for me, it is essentially a game of chicken. So we shall see who blinks first.

The Eurocrats have made it clear that they are worried that millions of other European voters would like to break the controls of Brussels and vote to leave them and we can't have democracy and the opinions of millions go and ruin their agenda of power and control from Brussels, so best to keep blackmailing them with financial ruin if they don't dance to the Brussels tune.

The French peasants actually invented the guillotine for people like that, when they had had enough and people power eventually took control.

Oh yes, notwithstanding that the central banks of the major nations are now having prop up the market - as they did over any many months during the GFC.

I used to sit up late at night and watch the markets during the lead up to the GFC. They would start to freefall - and then miraculously they would start the climb back up as the central banks stepped in and the buyers followed....but eventually...well that's history now.

"Global central banks have rushed to deal with financial markets fallout from Britain's shock referendum decision to quit the European Union."

"In reaction to chaotic trade, the Bank of England (BoE) announced it was ready to pump $460 billion to aid the smooth running of markets, declaring it will take "all necessary steps" to ensure financial and monetary stability.

"As a backstop, and to support the functioning of markets, the Bank of England stands ready to provide more than £250 billion [$460 billion] of additional funds through its normal facilities," BoE governor Mark Carney said in a televised statement following the Brexit vote.

"The BoE is also able to provide substantial liquidity in foreign currency, if required," he added.

The European Central Bank (ECB) also threw its concerns into the mix, adding it was on stand-by to open the liquidity floodgates if needed."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-06-25/world-central-banks-ready-plans-after-brexit-vote/7542798

And you brush that off by commenting, ""There are some great buying opportunities there Poirot..."

I'm sure there are....but it's not really an optimal position for the thriving of the market.

I don't accept they were "lied to" apart from the usual way that politicians gild the lily. Hope you are going to start a thread criticising our own Labor Party for the outrageous lie they are telling about Medicare. And their claims that the federal government has cut funding to health and education.

But it seems to me your horror is situational and depends on your politics, not the facts.

The GFC was caused by the ratings agencies not rating financial instruments correctly. So here we go again. If they had rated the instruments properly then people wouldn't have bought them, or at least would have been ready for them to blow up. There were other underlying causes as well, but none of them were the result of too little regulation.

Interesting stats about Australia Poirot but I can't find any support for your contention that company profits are down 11%. Here is a graph might help others to understand the situation. http://www.tradingeconomics.com/australia/corporate-profits

There has been a decline in business investment, but you could hardly blame the government for the ending of the mining boom http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/7d12b0f6763c78caca257061001cc588/78b08abe5e6f2df1ca2570d6001366dc!OpenDocument

When it comes to unemployment it seems we are in the early stages of recovery after unemployment accelerated quickly when John Howard lost government and in the wake of the mining boom http://www.tradingeconomics.com/australia/unemployment-rate

I get the picture. You are taking facts and presenting them in a misleading way that makes your argument look better. Are you accusing the Brexiteers of doing anything worse? And did Bremain never exaggerate?

Graham,

I like this one...

"There has been a decline in business investment, but you could hardly blame the government for the ending of the mining boom."

Quite hilarious when you think of how the Coalition likes to totally breeze past to "slight imposition" of the GFC and the stimulus in saving Australia's bacon - and leaving us as one of the best post-GFC economies in the world.

When Abbott was conning his way into govt on the back of the so-called "debt and deficit disaster" the GFC was nowhere on the radar.

But now you pull out "Oh what about the mining downturn!"

I haven't got time to dig around for the 11% source as we're off to the Historical Society for a morning's volunteering...but will have a look for it later.

Where have I mislead, Graham?...it's pretty straight forward in the wash up of Brexit that the likes of Johnson and Farage told major porkies to get the plebs to vote "leave".

Yep the EU cheered when the Palestian PM made up the lie of Israel poisoning their wells. When he admitted it was a lie there was silence from the leftist media. Thankfully the Brits have treated such liars with contempt. Why do the left fear and hate truth so much.

It is in the nature of votes and campaigns like Brexit that exaggerations will be voiced on both sides as the committed seek to convince the uncommitted. That the Leavers stretched the truth is undoubtedly true. But none came close to the suggestion that leaving the EU could result in WW3 as opined by the now lame-duck PM.

It is also in the nature of these votes that the losers will assert that it was those same exaggerations that swung the vote and that those who voted the 'wrong' way were too stupid to see the truth, unlike the Remainers who were ( in their mind) completely unswayed by the lies told by their side.

What is gratifying about this vote is that a freedom-loving people accepted the potential economic hit that may or may not come, as the price of regaining their voice and some control over their future.

That there will be economic losers from this is undoubtedly true. But equally there will be economic winners who have, until now, been ignored and disenfranchised by their political masters in both London and Brussels. Groups like the British fishing industry who were treated as so much cannon fodder and deserving of nothing more than the two fingered salute by the likes of Geldof.

What is so terrifying for the political elite in this is the realisation that free people given a free vote will ignore the exhortations and threats and vote for what they believe is right.

We saw the same thing here in the republican vote and it is why the left and the homosexual lobby are so desperate to avoid the homosexual marriage plebiscite. It's also why the so-called reconciliation referendum never quite materialises.

Britain is in for a rough time and tough decisions will need to be made. But the British will be making those decisions, not some unelected and unaccountable bureaucrat in another land.

Good for them.

Graham,

On the 11% company profit drop:

"In the two and a half years since the 2013 election, company profits have fallen 11% to their lowest level since 2010. This has occurred with the global economy registering decent growth and interest rates at record lows. In the six years of Labor government to 2013, company profits rose 28% despite the global financial crisis which plunged the world economy into a deep recession."

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/jun/04/the-anti-business-labor-hyperbole-wrong-just-look-at-the-facts

Yabby,

Regarding the UK forging a deal along the lines of Norway...

"If you want full access to the single market, you have to pay the EU. Norway, the example everyone quotes, makes a per capita net contribution of €107, we currently pay €139 per capita. I could never see why it was worth leaving for €32 a head. We would have to abide by most EU rules, including those that harm our interests without having the power to alter them. That €32 is just about enough to give everyone one small weekly shop, as long as they confine themselves to stocking up on white bread and turnips. What’s the point?"

"The Tory leaders of Vote Leave, those supposedly civilised and intelligent men, are creating the conditions for a mass far-right movement in England. They have lined up the ingredients like a poisoner mixing a potion, and I can almost feel the convulsion that will follow.

They have treated the electorate like children. They pretended that they could cut or even stop immigration from the EU and have a growing economy too. No hard choices, they said. No costs or trade-offs.

Now the Tory wing of the Brexit campaign, the friends of the City and big business, insists that we should remain part of the single market. So should you, if your job depends on Britain continuing to have access to EU markets, or you do not want your taxes to rise and services cut. Britain has fantastic levels of public and private debt, low productivity and a trade deficit. Few apart from the wealthy can view the loss of European markets with nonchalance."

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/brexit-lies-opening-terrifying-new-opportunity-far-right-britain/

Just a bit more from the Spectator article in the question of immigration:

"In Norway’s experience, this actually results in far higher inward EU migration than the UK, when measured as a percentage of the countries’ total populations.

I do not believe millions who voted to leave will accept that uncomplainingly. Johnson, Gove, Duncan Smith, Hannan, and Grayling – our generation’s guilty men – assured them that they could slash immigration from the EU at the same time as protecting their jobs, and spending tens of billions on taxes and services. They behaved as if the English could have it all: free access to the European single markets and immigration controls. They never said that a waiter would cough loudly and deliver a bill.

Now they are wriggling like lawyers trying to dodge the judge. We did not quite promise that, they maintain. You should have looked at the small print. ‘It is said that those who voted Leave were mainly driven by anxieties about immigration,’ intoned Johnson this morning as he prepared to U-turn and accept the conditions full access to EU markets entail. ‘I do not believe that is so.’

This is just incredible. No dictionary on earth has enough insults to describe the frivolity and cynicism of the Tory right. For the left-behind leave voters of working-class England, immigration was why they wanted out..."

"What are they going to do when Tories tell them they cannot have what they voted for?

They will not say that they were fools to believe Vote Leave. Very few of us willingly accept that we have been stupid. The right-wing press will not admit it has egregiously misled its readers either. ‘Never apologise, always complain’ might be its motto.

Instead, I fear that millions of voters and their leaders in the press and on the streets will say that the’ guilty men’ have ‘lied’, ‘betrayed’ and ‘stabbed us in the back’. The opportunities for the brutish leaders and financiers of Ukip, and the greater brutes of Britain First and the BNP appear dizzying."

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/brexit-lies-opening-terrifying-new-opportunity-far-right-britain/

Poirot, we have a free trade agreement with America. We do not pay them a fee. We have free trade with NZ and they can come here, but they can't just go on the dole here. All sorts of deals are possible, where everyone benefits and there is no good reason why the same cannot happen between the EU and Britain except one.

If you look around Europe, people are sick of the invasion going on from both the Middle East and Africa and Brussels prevents their countries from doing anything about it. In fact most are sick of the dictates of Brussels, where they have no say in any matter. I bet you that if referedums were held in Holland, Denmark, Sweden, Italy, France and a few others, most people would vote to have their own controls and borders back, as what is going on in Europe is a disaster. So the EU as envisaged by a few, is basically a failure. The Eurocrats in Brussels know that and are terrified that others might join Britain if Britain were to succeed in this. That is the only reason why they object to a normal free trade agreement, as happens all around the world and want to punish the British.

Poirot, as usual you are quite right. The conservatives play politics, quick to blame the deficit left behind by Rudd on poor economic management, but give no credence to the effects of the GFC. Yet the same people are quick to use the cessation of the mining boom as an excuse for the blow out of the deficit under their government. Being the masterful economic managers they claim to be, why have the Conservatives failed to return Australia to the black, by instigating a rapid response economic master plan that only they are privy to. I thing the conservatives are all smoke and mirrors, rather a clueless bunch indeed.

The EU is all about global governance.
Listen to Herman Van Rumpuy from back in 2009 if you don't believe me.
http://youtu.be/XW_LVbhWeFY
Any sane person who does not wish to be a slave to a foreign government should've told the EU to shove it.
...And to shove all the fear mongering too.
We don't care if your global government experiment implodes into a heap.
Scotland only wants to stay in the EU because they don't want to be the slaves of England.