I heard on the radio that there was boycott organised against Target in the US because of their new policy of allowing people to use public toilets based on the gender that they personally identify with.

Personally I don't care who comes into the men's, but I would imagine that women might feel differently.

Perhaps the solution would be to copy the French who for a long time have had unisex public toilets.

a toilet for the men, a toilet for the women and a toilet for the confused. I agree with you SM for a change. Airports seem to have a unisex toilet for those unsure or indifferent.

It's about time to take a brave step and stop making a fuss about body differences.

The segregation of toilets and the like, only creates an air of mystery about the body of the other gender. In times past this has been used to heighten sexual tension and expectations - which today is a completely undesirable result.

Germans, who grow up with shared toilets and showers, who walk and swim nude in parks and lakes, are probably the people least interested in and least occupied with sex in the whole world.

That's gold runner!

I agree that there should be male, female and unisex toilets.

I don't really like the thought of having to sit down on a public toilet at all, especially council maintained facilities.
Some aren't fit for use.
Also there's modern apps today which people use to meetup, including to have sex in public toilets.
"For a good time call - " has gone digital.

Ultimately its a matter of having regard for ones own health, and would presumably be more hygienic to crap on the grass behind the toilet block instead.

Runner,

He She and It?

Y,

Your argument is logical but a sexless society is somewhat unappealing.

AC,

Some women see separate toilets as a safety issue with respect to rape.

...And so they should, with all the perverts meeting up for sex there.

Dear SM,

Nothing stops you from having sex if this is what you truly want. My suggestion would eliminate just one artificial and unhealthy reason for having sex.

The lack of natural access to the other gender turns into frustration and makes one twistedly desire sex as an achievement or as a conquest for self-validation, rather than for pleasure, love or procreation as sex was meant to be for. It's an unnecessary wound that most of us carry.

Saw a photo perfect solution on one door it said " Vagina " on the other it said " Penis " no confusion with that description.

Also why should taxpayers and businesses fork out thousands for a third gender toilet? Throw that idea in the bin.

In our Council we have toilet cubicles that each open directly on to the open public areas, there are NO urinals only pans and each cubicle is the size of a a disabled toilet fitted out for the disabled. There are no foyer areas as each has wash and dry in the Cubicle.

There are good practical reasons for men only toilets but not for women only toilets. Men can relieve themselves at a urinal which takes less space than a cubicle. This means you can ‘process’ more men in a shorter time and with less equipment (like one cistern for a urinal versus one for each cubicle). This is especially relevant at events attended by big crowds and it becomes even more relevant where the crowd is predominantly male.

It would be reasonable for men to require some privacy from women in order to use a urinal so to have the practical advantages of men only toilets then we must pay the price of giving them such privacy.

These are the only things that need to be considered and it is dependent on what kind of genitals you have. If you identify as a woman but have male genitals then you should use a male toilet because the segregation is based not on how you feel about yourself but on what genitals you have. If you change your genitals then it would make sense to change your toilet.

Trying to make these issues into another drama for the transgender ‘victims’ is a desperate measure of attention seeking.

This discussion highlights the piss and wind that passes for thinking these days.

I demand male rights now, I demand my own cubicle.
Women don't line up sitting together along one big trough.
This a declaration of female dominance.
This is the destruction of male rights.
It's the destruction of children's rights.
I demand equality now and every male toilet in the country needs to be changed at taxpayers and business owners expense to reflect this unhealthy and discriminatory practice.
I demand fines and penalties for sexism and discrimination to anyone that does not comply with this disgusting and discriminatory practice.

Lol.. Of course I'm only joking but this is the type of screwed up PC behavior that feminist social justice warriors and other minority groups would put forward as valid social issues...
Watch This http://youtu.be/v2XGeUF4KVk

What a lot of rubbish! We should simply stick with male and female toilets, any others should quietly sit down and try to determine exactly what it is, you are? Or as you've quite rightly suggested SHADOW MINISTER, adopt the French arrangement.

The ABC, tireless stirrer and spruiker of the 'rights' of alphabetical gender lifestyle choices must provide a rainbow (sic) spectrum of toilet choices for its staff and guests. There would be multicultural choices too one imagines. For example, Islamists would want to cup water to bathe their rears. Endless prayer rooms too one supposes.

Then there are the fembots who don't mind women->male trannies and would promote that as 'empowering' (and miraculously child producing), but they are dead against the reverse, men->women, which questions the feminist brand and way of seeing things.

Still, that $1.3billion pa has to be spent somewhere and it is only taxpayers money, after all.

Life is so complicated for the leftist 'Progressives'. They are reckoning on their totalitarian ideal of International Socialism to sort it. The Big State will tell'em (the public) what to do and 'Or else'!

While the moralising BS artists talk on, it is so often falling on the young workers to pay for them and to compromise their own plans and dreams in the process.

I wonder when young workers are going to revolt. They can easily carry an election, turfing out the professional career politicians who stack the Parliament, but first they are going to have to think for themselves and not swallow the BS of idiots like 'Little Wally' (thanks to Dame Edna, one of the few to challenge the political cant).

As for toilets, who can explain why women's toilets have become so filthy? It is that social change or diversity we have to have? Sharing toilets with men with similar disgusting habits and traditions - that see individuals at the hand washing basin washing their privates instead (black water splashing to the floor) and no soap for hands later - should not be foisted on women.

Government should be designing public toilets so that entry and exit does not require touching the door hardware and most important, the main womens toilets should have an attendant on hand to supervise and keep it all clean.

Bidets in public toilets, why not?

Armchair Critic,

I accept the point you are making about men's toilets being spartan (and usually attended to less often by cleaners). Also that men don't have the complimentary tissue and must drip into their underpants instead.

However many men are willing to stand in filth, be it in a toilet area or (say) in a public bar where shoes stick to the saturated carpet and most, not many, don't bother to wash their hands with soap after urinating and some don't bother after defecating.

The most noticeable changes have reportedly been in the women's toilets, where it is now not unusual for some women to clean themselves at the sink, after using their 'unclean' hand to open the toilet cubicle door on the way out as well. Regrettably, many women now 'wash' by dipping their hands in water and religiously avoid any contact with the soap provided. Then they tend their infants, handle goods in the supermarket and so on.

Australian culture has changed. Gross.

I would prefer to stick with separate men's and
women's public toilets. I prefer my own separate
cubicle and privacy.

But of course I realise that
this is not always practical - especially in places
like work, hospitals, nursing homes, hotels, thetres,
et cetera. Therefore, I would not put up a fuss at having
to share this facility with others.

"When you've got to go, you've got to go."

Foxy,

I don't believe you are bigoted, I believe that while toilets for men are simply a facility, for women they are also something of a refuge. If a leather clad biker can now enter a ladies on the pretext of "identifying" as a woman that will be lost.

That the safety and peace of mind of the 99% should be sacrificed for the 1% is what today's PC culture is all about.

Shadow, did the protesters at 'Target' take their "business" elsewhere?

I want to protest about blokes who use the cubical in the "Men's" and do number ones standing at the bowel, causing a yellow river in cubical thus when I come along to do number two's got to be extra careful of the yellow river! What's wrong with ya, don't use the trough for fear others might view your undersized twinky!

I also protest the high number of blokes (don't know the women score), 50% in my estimate who don't wash their hands!

I also protest the blokes at the RSL where I drink, and the urinals are not auto flush, its an old club, the troughs get a solid workout by about 10pm, you know why. Why don't you blokes 'flush' the things after use, the stink in summer well, and its not the cleaners fault.

There are many other toilet items i could raise but i'll leave them for another day, lack of paper for one!

"Government should be designing public toilets so that entry and exit does not require touching the door hardware and most important, the main womens toilets should have an attendant on hand to supervise and keep it all clean.

Bidets in public toilets, why not?"

otb,

Once upon a time most big department stores provided that service and so did other venues. I quite liked it. For a small fee, you had that extra feeling that it wasn't just a random ablution place, but something that was actually managed and kept clean.

"I believe that while toilets for men are simply a facility, for women they are also something of a refuge. If a leather clad biker can now enter a ladies on the pretext of "identifying" as a woman that will be lost.

That the safety and peace of mind of the 99% should be sacrificed for the 1% is what today's PC culture is all about."

I've never looked upon female toilets as a refuge. I'm always glad when I see one and I've got to go.

Spose you're right though, SM...I wouldn't particularly relish the sight of a burly leather clad bikie doing his thing at the urinal when I emerge from the gentile environs of the cubicle.

But what is it about toilets that sets us on edge re safety...is it because it involves action from our naughty bits - or is it merely that we're required to enter a secluded area with strangers away from the safety of the throng?.

The latter one would suppose.

Poirot,

I propose bidets in public toilets for the simple reason and hope that bidets would prevent the scooping of water that is presently occurring from vanity sinks and toilet tanks where accessible. It results in black water and soggy toilet paper strewn over the floor.

I would like to see local government and businesses sharing the cost of attendants in women's toilets particularly because the presence of a woman attendant might encourage young mothers to model soap and water hand cleaning to their accompanying children. Think health savings from spreading the soap&water regime and not bacteria.

However bidets, attendants and clean public facilities would encourage travellers to schedule another, perhaps longer visit. -As would clean, covered, public seating areas with hot and cold water, and bins that are emptied and don't stink up the city mall.

Australia spends millions trying to get tourists, but the real money from repeat, family tourism comes from tourists' personal experience and from word of mouth. Australia has become grotty, vandalised and mean. -So mean to tourists (and locals alike) that the usual small comforts and concessions to travellers are curtailed, lest the traveller might not spend money on a seat in a greasy cafe nearby.

Paul,

All I heard was that there were protests.

From your description and my experience, the gents is not somewhere most women would like to go, and I do only for necessity.

P,

I think a quick visit to a gents would probably firm up your opinion.

Hi there POIROT...

Your thoughts on days past, when most decent Department Stores had clean public toilets with attendants therein, reminded me of my visit to Harrods in London.

For a sum of around a couple of British Pounds or so(I think), you were ushered into this quiet sanctuary called the Gentlemen's Rest Rooms, which was a rather pleasant change having being immersed in the bustling shopping floors.

Just inside the door was a gentleman's shoe shine, manned by this elderly, wizened little fellow who's function it was to shine one's shoes, at a cost that could easily purchase a new pair, plus a hefty tip of course? Anyway on to why I was there. Safely installed in my own cubical, I was amazed at it's size, each being easily double the size of a normal stall? You know the type, about the dimensions usually consigned for the exclusive use of the peasant class, and of course, policeman? Oh I nearly forget, each dark-wood paneled wall of my stall, had a nice Georgian Print affixed thereto?

After one has taken care of business, you proceeded to this row of opulent wash basins, the size of which could easily approximate the dimensions of a working class bath. After washing your hands, you were greeted by yet another elderly, well dressed fellow who eagerly pressed upon you to accept this large soft 'hand towel' in order for you to dry your hands, alternatively take it to the beach - the choice is obviously yours?

On exiting the area one couldn't help noticing a very large 'tipping' receptacle was conveniently located just inside the (closed) exit door. Which was conveniently held open for you after completing everything you needed to do including placing a couple of pounds, even a fiver into this receptacle. My brief visit to Harrods Gentlemen Rest Rooms had now concluded merely to 'take a leak' or 'drain the tank' or any other rendition one feels most comfortable in accepting. Anyone visiting Harrods should consider taking a bucket, it would prove far more economical?

Paul1405,

Urinals are the economic solution for men.

The 410mm height and 180mm opening width (approximations) of a toilet bowl is not optimal for standing use as a urinal.

By way of example, one closet, three urinals (one for common use is more economical and is the usual choice) and a wash basin (male option) occupies about 10% less space and has faster turnaround than three closets and two wash basins (female option).

Maybe some here can figure how the females have fewer facilities and longer waits (clues, one facility less and slower turnaround). Lose the private cubicles and both facilities can cater for more people.

Of course as previously mentioned, the alphabetically sensitive and multicultural (absolutely!) ABC would still have a rainbow spectrum of toilets (and the units non-white) to cater for its staff and visitors. The ABC has a large drain inserted in the taxpayers artery though and is bleeding the taxpayer white (hey, watch that language).

No toilet jokes or discussion of feminists' idiotic aim of diminishing masculinity by forcing men to sit for all purposes either.

Beach, have you done some research on the subject, urinals, toilet bowls etc, you seem to be rather knowledgeable on that score. Were you possibly a Janitorial Engineer in a past life?

I also want to protest on behalf of an ex-digger, I'll call him Fred. not his real name. if I called him Bill you would all know who I'm talking about, so we'll protect his good name, what's left of it, by calling him Fred. Fred it seems has a problem with the high cost of Incontinence pads. Fred, has been admonished by club management on several occasions for not using the urinal, not even using the bowl, but instead Fred prefers to use a unisex chair in the clubs main lounge! When fronted all Fred could offer as an excuse was "I keep the pads for bowls on Saturday!"
p/s Fred can get around okay, its not a lack of mobility is the problem. Fred will freely admit he's a bit lazy at times. Any opinions?

p/s Help is needed urgently, the club is fast running out of chairs. Shortly it could be standing room only!

o sung wu,

What an experience that must have been - I imagine many gents would have visited Harrods just to go to the loo. It makes me wonder what the Ladies would have been like....just as luxurious I expect.

I worked at David Jones in my first job after leaving school - in Perth. It was a lovely old store in the centre of St George's Terrace. It still had an old-fashioned lift with that sort of latticed cagey thing in front of the doors. I'd like to think it had a lift operator too, but I can't remember properly although I think there may have been a suitable little man doing that important job.

It was a kind of old-school type of establishnent...I remember when the Queen drove down the Terrace in 1977 we were all allowed to leave our post so we could go out on the sidewalk and wave to her.

But it was the end of an era for that type of store - closed the following year.

Paul1405,

It has been noted before on OLO and it is worth saying again, that you do Otto (A fish called Wanda) far better than talented Kevin Kline ever could.

But then Kevin Kline had to act the part, whereas that comes naturally for you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5IQnQhzMSI

Your cue to say something really stupid and you never let the forum down.

o sung wu, Poirot,

I may be wrong but I was given the impression that businesses like David Jones saw it as their duty as good corporate citizens to train and employ older veterans and people with disabilities in simpler but necessary roles such as lift drivers. There were others in loading docks, welcoming customers to floors and so on.

I was also told that the management didn't brook any rudeness to those employees either. Anyone who did that was quietly shown the door. Public rudeness would have been rare back then though.

Good evening POIROT...

Not unlike DJ'S here in Sydney in the fifties and sixties I expect? Indeed the lifts always had an attendant to drive it and to announce the various floors, and what those floors contained in the way of merchandise.

I recall being taken into DJ'S in Elizabeth Street (Sydney) in the forties and early fifties by my Mother and Grandmother for afternoon tea, consisting of a snowy white table cloth, together with superb crockery and tableware. Whereas I had to sit very quietly on my best behaviour, in order to have a piece of cake and a glass of lemonade. Have those times changed sadly. All this reminiscing is not good for you, so I've been reliably informed?

In later years, I'd occasionally think back on those days and lament their passing, particularly as I did my duty as a young uniformed copper, listening and witnessing all the atrocious and utterly filthy language and behaviour, that passes as acceptable for today? By golly we've sure slipped down the totem poll, of what is considered appropriate conduct in public places and venues in our community these days? It's all quite sad really, don't you think POIROT ?

Hi there ONTHEBEACH...

You're perfectly correct when you say that some jobs were only made available to veterans, particular those who'd lost a limb in war service. Lift drivers, and the old NSW Parking Police, were only available to veterans, and it was common sight to see a Vet. writing out a parking ticket for someone illegally parked, missing a leg or an arm. And they were all well respected by the public as well!

Take it easy there ol' mate !

o sung wu,

Excellent posts.

You should be aware though that reminiscing can be good for you. It has been found that those who get into their old music, memorabilia and so on feel younger and happier and blood pressure shows benefits.

In the research I read about the subjects had rooms decorated to accord with what they experienced at home as youths, or at some good time early in life.

Heh, heh, maybe the grille of a Ford Customline on the wall, a silky oak bar with beer logos above and a decent firm lounge chair that doesn't seat you 200mm from the floor and immediately sag the rest of the way. Maybe use the Customline's bench seats raised on wood.

Some decent broadsheet newspaper articles to read would help, but there will be no going back to that.

Beach,

The story about the old bloke is actually true. The club threaten to bar him. The duty manager had a go at him one avo, and I and a couple of others stuck up for him. The duty manager said "he's ruined half a dozen chairs, we have to throw them out. shampoo the bloody carpet, he said I've spoken to the club president (ex-digger) about him, and he said "we'll bar him if need be." which would be sad, as the club along with bowls are his only outlet. if I said his name people would recognise him, as he was once a well known trotting driver in NSW, and I like his stories about the "Red Hots". My old father in-law had the same problem, he still had a drivers licence in his 80's, my brother-in-law used to give him hell, after dad drove the car. He would call him for everything. Not that the old man didn't have the pads, he did, daughter-in-law used to purposely buy them for him, show him how to use them etc, but he just refused to wear them. My own son has said I wont drive Pops old car, it stinks. B-I-Law said he was going to put his old man in a home because of it.

Incontinence is a real problem in society with our aging population.

Or were you having a shot because I said "Were you possibly a Janitorial Engineer in a past life?"

Paul1405,

You should be on the lookout for large rollers. Oh, cement too. LOL

O Sung Wu,
Don't forget the Corps Of Commissionaires, they were all ex prisoners of war who were employed as doormen and superintendents in larger office buildings.

Jay of Melbourne,

I had a bit of look around,

http://www.thecorps.com.au/

Interesting history. Thanks.

Here's a recent related article.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/lgbti-fight-in-the-us-shifts-to-a-new-front--the-toilet-20160429-goi0xe.html

We could make it so that if you don't identify as a man and you don't have the genetics of a woman, (and vice versa) you shouldn't use either male or female toilets.

Easily fixed? Not quite.

Then you're going to have a transgender male and a transgender female arguing they shouldn't have to share.

What a stupid can of worms this is...

Hi there JAY OF MELBOURNE...

Of course you're right! Wasn't that organisation formed to assist Vets in their post military employment, particularly if they suffered injury to their Limbs? Another group the 'Limbless Soldiers Assoc.' I think it was called? They had a triangular shaped badge if memory serves me right?

G'day ONTHEBEACH...& HASBEEN if you happen to be about...?

Speaking of the Ford Customline, I had one as a youth, a 1953, V8 side-valve job it was! Talk about a 'lair', trouble was I couldn't enter the true character, because of my 'short back and sides' haircut being in the Army! Never mind I cruised the highways and byways of Wagga and later Singleton and their environs. This 'pretentious' debonair looking idiot, who barely managed to pay the necessary 175 quid it cost me to purchase the thing?

The 'diff'. was a true work of mechanical perfection; whenever I passed a group of kids or dogs, the 'whine' it produced, used to sound like the howls of a large collective of Tasmania Devils on steroids. Naturally everything and everybody headed for the hills, for fear of their very lives, such was the mortifying effect it had? Eh they were the days 'doncha' reckon ONTHEBEACH?

I was under the impression the Commissionaires were all ex P.O.W's or invalids but by their website it appears that it's a general veterans support group. Maybe my recollection is coloured by the fact that the only member I knew, my high school girlfriend's grandfather was a former British soldier who'd been a prisoner on the Burma railway, I recall us visiting him in his little rooftop flat in one of the buildings in Swanston St Melbourne where he was the doorman.

Hi there JAY OF MELBOURNE...

No, with respect, the Corps is open to all Vets, as long as they've received an honorable discharge at the conclusion of their engagement. From what I've heard, they're a pretty good organisation who really look after the interests of all Vets, thanks Jay.

The problem with gender-less toilets arises in crowded places where people line up outside the cubicle. Some are impatient, some are urgent, and having men women an d children in the same waiting line from what I've seen at self standing toilets at events poses abuse.

Dear Josephus,

The danger of abuse exists wherever there are queues for essentials and demand exceeds supply. We just don't see it a lot in first-world countries.

In this specific case, the supply/demand ratio can be improved by having urinals besides to the cubicles. Women can use them too (http://go-girl.com).

Yuyutsu,

Women at urinals reminds me of an incident at a Queensland country pub many years ago when I was a young soldier.
Our truck had stopped there for lunch and a beer or two.
The urinal was a tin fence about 70 yards out the back and when a couple of us eventually paid a visit, there was a pissing contest going on, a woman walked up and said "Betcha I can beat yers all"
Bets were duly laid and her attempt was not very high so a bloke stepped up and prepared to beat her.
As he started she yelled out "Hey! Fairs fair, no hands"
There was a general concession of defeat and she went back to the pub a few quid richer.

Josephus, "..having men women and children in the same waiting line from what I've seen at self standing toilets at events poses abuse"

Too right!

It would be the same as the queue for the council buses, where the women are all elbows and bad manners, shoving themselves in front of all comers, pregnant women, the elderly and men of course.

A thirty-something woman who wants HER seat is a force to be reckoned with and no hostages taken!

Perhaps a line of squat toilets for them since they are in such a hurry. As a bonus the squat toilets would inhibit them getting comfortable on the throne while others wait. Besides, squatting is 'multicultural' and therefore tres 'progressive'.

Having just returned from a couple of months in India where the squat is the preferred model, I must endorse its use; no worries about the seat or 'mobile dandruff'.
OTB is right, no one lingers, especially in trains.