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The Forum > General Discussion > Tears in the Fabric of 'Recognition' ?

Tears in the Fabric of 'Recognition' ?

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Dear Onthebeach, I love the way you keep falling over backwards to devalue my comments.
Aboriginal people have had a tough time; not just in the past, but recently. I used examples from my own experience to show that I had actually seen it, not just read about it. In my case, I did nothing to antagonise the Police, just innocently walked into a situation where surveillance was the norm - it took me by surprise but the Aboriginal people with me accepted it as routine. In fact it was quite easy for me, a white person, to roll up to the relevant Police station, politely introduce myself and explain what I was doing, as I did on several occasions.
It was and remains harder for Aboriginal people. Here is a quote from Stan Grant:
'It was a fear of what could touch us - the sense of powerless, of being at the mercy of the intrusion of the police or the welfare officers...It was a heavy hand that made people tremble. I see it still in my father ... as he tenses up at the sight of a police car. He has done nothing wrong...We fear the state and have every reason to. The state was designed to scare us."
Here is another example of my "oppositional even and predisposition to draw negative motivation". Some years ago I was doing a project in a small town in western NSW, and got permission, from the regional police office to look at the historic lock-up, on police premises. The local constable was interested in history, and asked if he could go along with me the next day (his day off). When I arrived to pick him up, he looked at my old and ordinary 4WD and said 'shall we take mine?' We had a great field day touring the sites in the classy Police 4WD Toyota, going places (straight uphill!) that I would not have been game to attempt. Go ahead - tell me that this demonstrates my terrible negativity to the Police (sorry, the attitudes on OLO are catching!)
Posted by Cossomby, Monday, 21 March 2016 10:54:13 PM
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Cossomby,

Police will be where the offences are being committed. Nothing draws them like offences being committed against people. It is unfortunate that police are required to visit the same houses with the same people - colour of skin and ethnicity no barrier - who cannot run their lives without police intervention, direction and some lock-up to help.

SBS's 'Struggle Streets' drew out some of the problematic behaviours and lack of self discipline. Some people are just stupid and wilful. They sabotage themselves and everyone around them, especially the young and easily influenced, if they can.

However, speaking of Indigenous or any other group for that matter, in the same 'burb there will be many others who exist under the same conditions and are not problems. They are just unfortunate to have to put up with what is going on around them. Most set sail out of there as soon as they are able, or help liberate their children. Would that government (you were using government resources no doubt) concentrated on these good citizens to build and multiply their successes.

It is surprising you never got to ride in any of the many new Toyota Landcruisers and Camrys given to indigenous communities and bureaucrats that the taxpayer stumps up for each financial year. -Whitey cars that are flogged mercilessly and trashed. "Hey, there's more where they came from!"

You disregard, cannot explain and would prefer to dismiss the many (most?) Indigenous who are doing well. It was always that way. But why the difference?
Posted by onthebeach, Monday, 21 March 2016 11:41:42 PM
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HI Cossomby & OTB,

I suspect that movements stand or fall depending on whether they have any sort of positive, coherent, agenda, and if they can negotiate the balance between identity and inclusiveness. Social forces are always at work, like it or not, know it or not, and not necessarily moving in the 'right' direction.

I have grave concerns that welfare-oriented populations in remote, rural and outer suburban areas are not going to thrive or pick themselves up, but instead are going to become even more de-skilled, if it's possible, and - metaphorically - walk over a cliff.

But on the other hand, that the working population - since it is necessarily working with non-Indigenous people on the whole - will socialise and marry and merge in with the rest of Australia's very multi-culti population. Yes, this population (or their children) may, perhaps off-handedly, remark that they are 'of Indigenous descent' but in the next generation or so, will 'disappear' into the multi-culti mainstream.

The upshot of all that will be a withering away of the Indigenous population. Maybe we'll start to see it happening if the 2016 Census growth figures take a bit of a dip.

The moral is that, instead of swanning around, the elites have to grapple with real issues, not fart around with yet more symbolic stuff - even worse, just symbolic and undefined words like 'Recognition'.

Message to 'leaders': You want to be a 'leader' ? Then, lead, for God's sake, before it's too late.

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Thursday, 24 March 2016 9:51:50 AM
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Surely this will just create separatism and what will actually be involved? Is it another money grab? When I left school in the 80s at fifteen to get a job to buy a car, the part aboriginal kids all landed brand new XE Falcons. They were educated, came from good hard working families and could have easily got a job and bought their first car like the rest of us. The Govt interfered with over-compensation and entitlement. This has only increased and I believe created White hatred and a sense of entitlement. As for 'paying rent' that is just ludicrous. Many proud and self respecting indigenous would surely frown upon the idea. The 'sub - culture' (like the one Stan Grant escaped from) those unwilling to be educated or earn a living are well compensated, more so than any other race in the world. As for racism in Australia, non-indigenous, in my experiences are the offenders, and sadly that also has increased. Throw away the kidd gloves, stop molly coddling and toughen the hell up Government. Yes and Stan Grants attempts to look aboriginal are a tad silly.
Posted by jodelie, Saturday, 26 March 2016 11:47:58 PM
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Hi Jodelie,

I think we really should try to understand as much as possible what is involved with each proposal which might be included in proposals for a Referendum on 'Recognition', including

* an inclusion in the Preamble to the Constitution recognising Indigenous prior occupation of Australia;

* an additional clause in the Constitution recognising special rights for Indigenous culture and languages;

* the recognition of Indigenous nations, or clans, across Australia;

* a Treaty between the Australian government and people, with a section of the population, or with each of the nations or clans within it;

* the recognition of Indigenous sovereignty across Australia written into the Constitution of Australia.

We need to think carefully how any of these may improve the conditions of the small minority of Indigenous people living in relatively tiny and utterly dependent settlements across remote Australia.

We need to understand how each of these proposals might decrease the violence and abuse in isolated settlements, and improve the chances for employment and education, i.e. self-determination, of people in those regions, if such are possible. If not, then alternatives must urgently be found to improve the life-chances for the next generations currently in those miserable and ghastly circumstances.

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Sunday, 27 March 2016 8:37:21 AM
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Jodelie,

This article illustrates the variety of Indigenous views on 'Recognise', from a couple of weeks ago:

http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2016/mar/11/treaty-push-should-replace-indigenous-recognise-campaign-says-yolngu-leader

There are three articles in today's Australian [at last !] on the Recognition controversy, which tease out some of the complex issues which have arisen since the Recognise campaign was initiated eight or ten years ago.

The major problem seems to be that what the elites who have proposed this 'Recognise' campaign and what many Indigenous people are demanding are very far apart: one asking for a few additions to the Constitution and the removal of any discriminatory clauses, while the other approach is to demand a recognition of Indigenous sovereignty or at the very least, a Treaty, written into the Constitution. Both remain somewhat undefined - in fact, every proposal for change seems to be rather undefined, to put it politely.

And yet sixteen million Australian voters will be asked eventually to express their preferences. It's not easy being an elite whose light-bulb moments hit the wall of explanation and cold reality.

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Tuesday, 29 March 2016 9:41:41 AM
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