Foxy: I had always assumed that feminism was not about gender but about equality for all.

Obviously you were mistaken. The rest of us have known that foe 50 odd years. Feminism "was" about getting equal rights for the first couple of years then the movement was hijacked by the Lesbian Movement in the Universities in the late 60's.

The Women's Movement was swamped by very nasty, anti men Feminist & still is today. The women running Women's Shelters are predominantly Lesbians who do all they can to convert their clients. How do I know that. Personal experience & I've known quite a few.

The Courses in Marriage Counselling, etc. all paint men as evil women bashing, philandering bastards. Even if the man is a good man, "He is only being good to the woman to control her." Quoted to me by a Feminist Marriage Councillor.

If you dare question the Course Dictates you WILL be failed. How do I know? One of my friends did his theses on "Female Domestic Violence on Men," His Professor tore it up in front of him & told him that if he dared present it he would be failed & shut out of repeating the Course. You see, "Women are never violent, it's only men."

No Foxy, the Feminine Movement nowadays is the same as all the other Movements. It's all about playing the "Victim" to gain an advantage over their opposite number. Usually for Profit.

It's like moslem's or GLTB's saying they are being picked on because they're different, or refuse to fit in with the rest of Society. "Victimism for Profit." Sounds like a good title for a book.

"Victimism," New word, It's not in the Dictionary.

Hi WFT,

There is another reason maybe, but I am fearful of offending some people.

Bugger it, let's go: because so much of the feminist movement has been hijacked and side-tracked by the completely separate homosexual-rights movement. Discuss. There will be a test later.

Yes, there is some overlap, but each should be treated in its own right: women have many rights issues that have nothing whatsoever to do with homosexuality, and vice versa.

As my dear little old grandmother used to say, if you can't say anything offensive about someone, don't say anything at all. That's my quota for today.

Cheers,

Joe

Hi Jayb,

Looking back on decades of obsession about Indigenous issues, I agree with you 100 % that 'victimism' is a dreadfully corrosive attitude for any group which is struggling for equality to attribute tobitself. At all costs, people have to avoid seeing themselves that way, even if they are subject to genuine oppression and inequality.

Anthony Dillon has a brilliant article in Quadrant this week which teases out the 'victim' trap amongst some Indigenous populations - in an era of special rights and benefits. In fact, I'm wondering if one leads to the other - an attitude that people are fully entitled to special benefits BUT they aren't getting enough of them, because of racist whites.

Why is victimism so insidious ? Because it takes away anybody's will to make any effort - it all seems so hard. So daily cultural practices are built up and reinforced that justify, even demand, doing nothing, of pulling down anybody who seems to be actually fighting against that trend by seizing opportunities which actually do exist. Indigenous people all know the story of the bucket-full of crabs without a need for a lid. 'Victims' enforce that story amongst themselves.

Joe

SOL: Feminists don't want to be the SAME as men (shudder!),

That's strange. So why do they, dress like Men, Get haircuts, like Men, have hairy legs, like Men, use filthy language, like Men, & on, & on, & on.

SOL: but merely to have the same rights, choices and opportunities. And I would hope all men would also want that for their beloved female relatives.....surely?

Most men I know already do that, but as I said to Foxy, "They're only being nice to their wives to control them."

It's not hard to see that you are on the side of the very nasty type Feminists in every respect.

I would say that 99% of men have respect for women. There are some A*hole men out there, of course, but there are just as many A*hole women as well. What, or who men don't have any respect for are the very nasty, rabid vocal Feminists. That, then is their problem, not men's.

The following link tells us that many men seem
to assume that in order to provide women more
rights you must take away rights from men.

That in order to pay women more you must take
away from men. That in order to help women - you
must hurt men.

You'll find many answers that reflect this logic.
That any attempt on equal rights is actually a
detriment, an attack on men and so on - down
the line. Everything becomes an equation where to
help women we must hurt men. In other words
feminism by these people is seen as an attack at
the very core identity of men.

There are of course these sort of extremists amongst
women as well.

http://www.quora.com/Why-is-it-that-men-so-often-feel-attacked-by-feminism

' The women running Women's Shelters are predominantly Lesbians who do all they can to convert their clients. '

Amusing. I didn't know women were so fluid. Though being Gender Fluid is the latest trend, and being a tranny has, with Kaitlin Jenner, become popular with the masses.

'I had always assumed that feminism was not about gender but about equality for all'

Well there are different kinds of Feminists. Gender feminists as jayb says have been around a long time.

'Gender studies' is the bastard child of the Identity Politics that has fractured any chance of developing true political unity.

A more accurate title for Gender Studies would be Feminist Studies. You can do a politics degree, a history degree or a sociology degree from a left wing or right wing perspective and still get a distinction. You can do a psychology degree from a psychodynamic perspective or a neuro-cognitive perspective and still get a distinction.

I would love to know if anyone, ever, has done a Gender Studies degree while taking a non-feminist or even anti-feminist stance and still passed, far less got a distinction.

If it is not possible to do that, the field is 'quasi-religious' dogma. I think we all know the answer.

How many students or staff in gender studies departments describe themselves as 'anti-feminist.'

But in general most people are happy enough with the concept of equality (of opportunity) and for people having options in how strictly they conform to traditional gender roles.

It's just that when people who dare to conform to or just happen to want to live their lives more in line with traditional gender roles they don't like to be used as a statistic to 'prove' some sort of inequality or oppression.

It gets ridiculous for example when there is a movement to 'Get women into ... computers, mining, etc', and when no women are interested, and it's considered some terrible tragedy or grand conspiracy. To be solved with affirmative action of course.