I am sure it is we are again reading of sexual assaults and a very poor life in community's across Australia.
Headlines may say its the Northern Territory by its much more that that ,like the bashing of females it is country wide.
On one hand are the lunatic politically correct who themselves inflict pain on these folk.
By standing in the way of change and accountability, even education.
And on the other those who blame the community it self for being victims even the children as young as 5!
I know in my heart most of these victims are not in any way educated , and that we should without doubt not return children to some truly worthless homes.
Fear of being called racist is almost entrenching some true evil acts.
This must stop some way of truly impacting on the lives of the victims and making the perpetrators accountable must be found , history will not except our fears as an answer and it will not believe we failed to act because we blamed the victims.
If humans are all equal crimes must be punished equally justice must be color blind but never blind to acts so evil only a very long term sentence will do.

Quite in here isn't it? come tell me I am wrong, give me another way but we just can not let this lay.
It is real, it is happening today ,it will happen tomorrow not in far away NT but in a town or village near you.
While we talk kids who can not read or write, who have parents who can not read or write are suffering.
Parents and grand parents who never had a job sit watching children who with out change will never have a job.
Come with me to just a few homes and see for your selves our shame.
Yes I know it is shared shame not just the white mans fault but it is our shame too.
Why pay any fit person to sit down and do nothing? in a community that needs grass cut rubbish removed kids cared for?
Why send kids to school so teachers get paid but be interested in if they learn?
Why alowe some who indeed can not read or understand the reasons for this dreadful life to act more like racists than the worse ones?
Australia must stop the do gooders destroying any chance for change and we must not for another day waste our efforts.
Education and accountability are tools to bring improvement not a threat.
Accountability is not an evil word its outcomes are life changing.

I suggest acholol and pornography is resulting in far more child abuse than those who were unfortunate enough to be taken from their parents (sometimes with good intentions and sometimes not). One of the porn industries greatest customers are the aboriginal community. Add that to sit down money and drugs and you have created a hell on earth.

Noel Pearson seems to be one of the few aboriginal leaders willing to shake the victim tag and do something about his peoples plight. Unfortunately their is a lot of strife between tribes which make it difficult for the aboriginal people to have a voice of unity.

Focussing on 'the stolen generation' achieves very little. No doubt many blacks and whites have suffered great injustice. Living in the past solves nothing as we see in the Middle East.

Runner I agree with every word in your post, in fact the stolen generation included the children of poor white family's too.
The screams will start now but it is true! and just as wrong now as it was then.
However I do not propose such an out come just a refuge for kids in need and a chance at life.
I as a unionist have found it imposable to give jobs away in this community.
I think personal help and action from each of us is a way we should use more often and have with help from like minded firms had jobs at over $20 an hour on offer but no takers.
I know some very well educated Aboriginals are quite able to drive the needed change if we can just get it started.

Well at least you two are talking about it i suppose.

Rainer I am aware of your interest, and I think you may be aware of mine.
However I am breathless to find the thread s of no interest to so many.
I could except the racist rants of both sides, yes Aboriginal racist who view the problem as a cash cow.
And the mindlessness of the red necks who blame only these people for the problem.
The silence however is heart breaking.
History will judge us badly, in truth I view the problem as one this country must confront now.
Tough love accountability from both sides.
Education that is useful.
And an end to some whites feeding like flys on the problem with no intent to change any thing.
I am white but see children too hard to handle being taken into special schools but only to produce money for that school not a life for the child.
A thread just like this in a long dead site I think you and I posted in years ago had over 200 posts and some true insight into a shameful thing our country has not got a handle on yet.
I think we Australians are far too comfortable, and we care less today for those who need help than we ever did before.
However we will one day find our comfort is not forever not guaranteed.

Belly, yes not much interest unfortunately.

So what are Aboriginal People up against ?

I recently complained to Mal Brough's Dept about the hasty re directing and withdrawl of the $60 million dollars offered for the 20 years overdue and Alice Springs refugee town camp developement.

His department Senior advisor, a Mr Russell Patterson , replied in writing today ,and said in his last relevant comment, "It is not acceptable for such large sums of public money to be used to construct houses on private land ."

This ridiculous statement on indigenous people's basic housing needs takes some beating!

It would seem that the most deserving Australians ,at least in many eyes, probably never really had a chance anyway .

I do not believe the Howard's Government men were serious in wanting to solve the problem - no doubt this money offer will circulate from community to community gathering "good times are coming " press releases as it goes around Australia meeting a similar fate because of a lack of understanding of the Indigenous negotiation timescale .They simply needed a bit more time to get all the groups to agree . They had made considerable progress .

For an Army man like Mal Brough to "cut and run" , to use a horrible phrase, is a disgrace and does not augur well for our Aboriginal first Peoples particularly in the areas in Australia where they need help most .

kartiya Jim I think the lack of interest is clear ,one day I would like to find a forum like that long dead one that continues important threads for much longer periods.
However while I must go on record as no fan of this government I have no more faith in my party the ALP to fix it.
We get bogged down in seeing the dreadful problem and thinking the only answer is politically correct rubbish or throwing money at it.
It will take brave actions to undo the over 200 years of miss managing the problem.
To think after all that time people still live in such conditions.
And may I ad the view no doubt exists in my mind this problem is not just remote areas, but Australia wide.
While some are as much a part of the mainstream community far too many are not even close.

Thanks kartiya jim for posting Mal Brough's Senior advisor Mr Russell Patterson's comment from his reply :

"It is not acceptable for such large sums of public money to be used to construct houses on private land ."

IMHO the action from Mal Brough taking the money elsewhere is to be applauded.

The relevant town camps in Alice Springs are private landholdings and is long overdue they be treated as such.

Treating these private landowners as private landowners is a good step towards fixing the problems.

Next step is for these private landowners understanding and accepting they are the private landowners and learning to act like private landowners.

As the private landowners they are responsible for maintaining the housing they construct on their private land unless they lease the land or buildings to someone else with these responsibilities included.

Certainly agree the hasty re directing and withdrawl of the $60 million dollars offered for the housing is 20 years long overdue for both Alice Springs and the town camp developements.

Problem around Alice Springs is worse with Central Land Council's long term denial to Traditional Owners the issuing of valid leases for their homes all around Central Australia.

The Central Land Council's three-fifth share in Centrecorp the company has ownership directly or indirectly of large amounts of real estate in Alice Springs, believed to be worth hundreds of millions of dollars.

The Central Land Council has far to much leverage, influence over what happens around Central Australia, far more than most people elsewhere realize.

Now what kartiya jim has not mentioned is the Minster has advised a lesser amount of money may still be available, providing the NT Government can broker an agreement by the end of this month with the landowners.

Go complain loudly to all Australia how your finance company is refusing to give you a loan for houses and other buildings because you refuse to sign a mortgage.

They will complain back such behaviour is just plain stupid.

Whether town camps and you get any money is back to you kartiya jim...

Belly, a mix of compassion fatigue, complexity of problem and historical amnesia i reckon.

Hundreds of reports, thousands of recommendations,this is a cycle of reporting that governments think is the solution rather than action.

Talking about, reading about, knowing about, the disadvantaged of Aboriginal people is so firmly entrenched in white Australian culture that its considered normal - if not fundamental requirement of being 'Australian'.

The ultimate and permanent fixture of downward envy.

I will not kick Howard for his actions today, in fact it is a start.
But if any one from the greens or Democrats cares to explain why they do so to me it would be of help.
Just after I spoke of political correctness its main contributors in this country launch into a lets whine but do nothing mode.
What are the policy's of the greens in this area?
And if the lost and dieing Democrats have a policy other than self destruction let me know what it is in this matter.
Remember please the impact poor or no education has on this issue.
And for goodness sake STOP thinking this issue is not nation wide!
How dare we Australians insult other country's like say India for its cast system while we are content to let these conditions exist in our country and blame only its victims for the problem.
Tough love, accountability for both sides and good quality education for every Australian child by unbreakable law, a start to finding an answer not a threat.

Sorry polpak,
Howard's and Brough's previous "Cut and Run" attitude to Aboriginal poverty and despair and the huge problems it has brought to our Indigenous people has been a disgrace for all Australians.
The Northern Territory Government's irresponsible attitude to alcohol is basically anti-social,against humanitarian principles and personally destructive in it's effects on Aboriginal communities .

More Howard band aids are evidently following .

We should never forget Howard's WIK TASK FORCE,with it's battle overtones , was an creation in 1998 forged by the Liberals, the Nationals And the National Farmers' Federation under Don McGauchie to take away Aboriginal Land Rights that had been granted by the High Court.
Those Rights taken away by his 10 POINT PLAN could well have helped them adjust to their unenviable historical social and economic status .

The NT Government is now appealing Indigenous fishing rights granted by the Courts in the remote Blue mud Bay .

[Of Course much better to keep them on the Federal Government's dole!]

Mal Brough's excuse, as explained by his senior advisor Mr Patterson for not giving the Aboriginal Australians a decent roof over their head in Alice Springs [ie. "Too slow ,Basically it's now up to them !"] is in no-one's best interest and no way to conduct negotiations on land .

Aboriginal people need their own Ministerial Department - It is hardly fair for John Howard to expect the struggling Mal Brough to help them get on their feet while he is working on a part time basis .

Unless there are many millions of dollars and a PLAN to give hope and help to those people who are chronic alcoholics in Central Australia ,Howard's initiative will fail .

You can not invade a country , take away the inhabitants' best land, ignore their culture , disrespect or only give it lip service and expect no problems .

"Blind Freddy", who was probably black , could see this .

Howard's lack of leadership on Aboriginal Dispossesion, his historical indifference, and it's horrible legacy, is Australia's great shame.

At this point katiya jim I charge you with being an enemy of your people the Australian Aboriginal.
Words like invasion are bloody rubbish!
Why is it we muddy the water with tripe like that? why is it every country that has ever been invaded [ almost every one in the world] has not got problems with elders assaulting children in the lowest way?
You can throw ten billion dollars a day at the problem but if nothing changes in the community and white Australia it is wasted.
I think the very left are a reason we have failed to fix the problem ,and will fight against idiotic invasion talk till I die.
One country one people should be our target and accountability is needed from both sides education for both sides and an end to racism from far too many ON BOTH SIDES .
Racism is fueled by uneducated or poorly educated community's and is just as evil if it comes from minority's and it is in this case.
Do not use these dreadfully handle kids as a cash cow, white man is not Santa Claus and no person no color has the right to bludge on the rest of us.

Belly ,
For starters , The Federal and State Governments could pay compensation into a managed fund for the land that has been taken, that would give Aboriginal people an economic base to provide many of the essential services that are needed including health,housing and education .

Pretending we didn't invade Australia ,disposessing Aboriginal Australians and thereby sticking your head in the sand over realistic compensation won't help .

Expecting Black Australians embrace a greedy white culture that has money and land acquisition as its main focus is simply more ugly racism in my book .

Is not that Jim does not get it, is that Jim does not want to get it.

Victim mentality seduces people into ignoring what happening around them.

Hungry kids are hungry regardless of color.

Homeless kids are homeless regardless of color.

Uneducated kids are uneducated regardless of color.

Abused kids are abused regardless of color.

Why use "Aboriginal" as excuse to NOT apply same resources, same solutions to same problems ?

Freehold titles handover wherever possible, handovers to individuals, or ASX listed corporations with shareholders people with "Traditional" interests.

Alice Springs town camps are private land same laws, rights and responsibilities applicable to other landowners applied.

Excuses for "seperate rights," "seperate responsibilites" need be rejected, these are no part of solution.

Still believe Aboriginals NOT entitled right their family live with them or visit them ?

Deny these basic rights for Traditional Owners by objecting to their obtaining valid leases for their homes.

All housing titles around communities (Commonweath$ via NT/State filters) hand to tennants so they home owners, each family get their own economic asset base.

People having rights a problem ?

Federal/State Governments pay compensation for lost lands into fund to provide essential services such as health,housing and education.

Hello, Health, Housing and Education services provided already !

Why people not taking them up. Oh sorry, people taking them up, is this your problem ?

People run around saying we need these services provided by people who pass color code tests... Or ideologically sound assesments.

Racist garbage, no person of sound mind cares about ethnicity of their doctor, their plumber, their landlord, their teacher, what concerned about is service competence.

Self determination started in 1976, is now 2007, we've had 30+years of mismanagement.

Sure we have had some successes, many of these despite assistance provided, not because of it.

To put the wine debate around Alice Springs into some perspective:

Backed by the Australian government's Austrade agency, many winemakers are setting up shop on the Chinese mainland, selling a variety of reds to the growing Chinese middle class.
Austrade chief economist Tim Harcourt said the rising purchasing power of Chinese consumers, backed by robust economic growth and further developments in China's infrastructure, were factors fuelling the growth in demand for wine.

The poor drink to drown sorrow, the wealthy to celebrate.

We need reasons, chances to celebrate a bit more.

I a forever proud member of the ALP add one state leader and the fool who rules the ACT to the list who stand firmly in the way of change and charge both with not caring enough about the children.
Jim your thoughts are shared by far too many Aboriginals who want money before true change and my charge is firmly to include some who spoke yesterday of racism.
I again highlight some Aboriginals are RACIST.
This fact you can Dennie if you wish but can you convince your self it is not true?Education levels among some of these people are such only outside help can fix the problems.
And the problem is crimes are being committed and the law seems powerless to stop them.
The lieing little rodent who rules us has my total support on this issue and my admiration for cutting the red tape and acting at last.
jim if every dollar white man has spent on the Aboriginal race is computed we have paid reparations twice over for our invasion, just in the last ten years.
If man is one a target of better life not more wasted money s called for .

Like it or not Belly ,the "furry one" you talk about will have to spend BILLIONS of dollars to enable Aboriginal Australians to live a reasonably healthy and satisfying life in white Australia.

You can guarantee it won't be all well spent .

In fact you can guarantee most of the money eventually promised to help in the future [nothing yet] will probably sit in a fund for years .

jim like it or not some one had to act today Democrats just a handful of ALP people the greens and bleeding hearted liberals in all colors and varying IQ,s want to cry racism.
Not me the victims are real the crimes are real, the community should be shamed by both.
Aboriginals once had the firmest rules in place to stop this can you not see whites alone do not bare this shame?
I refuse to say money alone is the way out a job accountability to keep that job and do it well, to educate and protect the children.
And yes new housing that must not be burnt.
New schools hospitals, police stations and if needed prisons.
New life but I owe no man who wants to sit on his bottom a living.
The furry little bugger has this time, got it right, trust Australian voters he is yesterdays man beaten well before the election.
Only an air wasting NT Labor government that failed to act gave him this chance to impress.

Belly , probably agree with most of your post .

ps. Had a win with our local footy team today ,so probably too happy [ ok ,I will admit it - celebrated with a few beers ]-so I won't argue too much with some very good points.

Sorry Belly ,
But after having another look at your previous posts I do think your Psycology Classes on Basic human response to Deprivation are well overdue.

Jim you have a right to your opinions but you must never devalue my right to mine.
And those who know me understand I give far to much away rather than see suffering I can stop.
But it has gone on far too long!
We whites and surely you understand? the Aboriginal community? both have failed to improve anything.
I say clearly if people exist in these community's who can stop these events why have they not come forwards and done it?
I live close to these folk ,watch daily as kids and women suffer, have got work time and again for some who are dragged back into drinking and sharing the wages so it no longer is worthwhile working.
No person of any color has the right to impose this life on any one for one minute if you think a hatred of Aboriginal suffering makes me mentally unwell you are no person to help these people.
accountability, education, tools we must use for a better future hand outs? by a lottery ticket!
If concerns for Rich's out way concern for kids.

Belly wrote:
• We whites and surely you understand? The Aboriginal community? Both have failed to improve anything.

Yes, true, one needs to have full control of its own ability to determine its civil, political, and economic life.

The other must begin to admit that they are very much a part of the problem.
Howard et al have been careful not to implicate themselves as a federal government charged with policy and fiscal responsibility to ‘Aboriginal Australians’.

These communities did not spring out naturally from the economic development of Aboriginal society; their fundamental history is born from a system of control and internment of human beings whose economic and political rights were denied on reserves and missions.

Yes these are the GULAGS that kept Aboriginal people (including me) out of sight and out of mind so that white Australian society can and did profit from this very same dispossession. And aren’t we in the middle of an economic boom that Howard delivered unto us? After tens or more years of cutting and slashing programs that were developed to assist the problems in our communities he trotts this out in an election year as somehow and indication of his humanitarianism?

This is nothing more than TAMPA # 2. (Aboriginal children overboard this time)

Accusations about victim mentality conveniently deny this very history as valid to any analysis of contemporary situations. Walk a mile in my shoes mate!

If for instance my own people were allowed to own even one tenth of our land, (lock stock and barrel) I would not be here agueing for scraps of legal, political and economic rights that in any fair society would have accorded me and mine.

How is it that only 2 percent of this nation’s population also represents 98 % of the moral, legal and ethical dilemma that regularly pops up in the news?

I know why but many here obviously do not because its not how they understand the history and evolution of their own white privilege

A lot of land titles were handed over to various corporate identities of "Aboriginal" groups, why are people within these lands not given long term valid leases for their homes ?

The Central Land Council arguing against issuing leases to "Traditional Owners" because the leases will give people rights.

Tangentjera knocked back $60 million housing project rather than issue leases.

Usual excuses to not give people leases, they get rights, and they might sell them. Yet still want rent money collected from everyone in each house...

All excuses for "seperate rights," "seperate responsibilites" need be rejected, they are the problem, not part of the solution.

I like polpaks post but do not write Rainer's of either.
Howard and Labor took away some real chances for improvement from the people them selves including that work scheme they just lost.
I do blame whites more than any for this, we played games with words and stood in the way of change but if you Rainer can not point the finger at some of your people too I question your ability to be of help.
No human no mater what the circumstances is forced to rape children bash wives or spend food money on grog.
On a coastal hill by the sea far away from the northern territory 2 600.000 dollar homes have been bought by a lands council group.
For years rented out to hard up Aboriginal people who failed to pay the rents they are now rented by whites.
But owned by the people we speak of can it be that the money would have been better spent by this community else ware.

Yes the stolen generation is still hurting todays Aboriginal children.
Looking back with todays vision we know most of it was wrong, wrong by todays standards and in our view those days standards too.
Oh some of it was right like the rehashed story of that young female child lost in a card game by her father.
But fear that we could ever get it so wrong again compels us to leave children in homes that are unfit for them.
May I add to the stolen generation storey? believe me it included the children of poor whites too.
Even in the late 1940,s and right to the late 1950.s children of poor whites ran in fear from the welfare officers who took them away without a reason other than the thought they knew better.
The crimes against women and children in these community's MUST STOP a better life for all MUST COME but my well respected Aboriginal fellow posters here must understand some effort by the community, until now largely self governed community could have long ago stopped this.
Some blame firmly and true belongs at the feet of Australia's Aboriginals