I have no problem with defence spending; we should be spending more. But, I read in a book review that the fools are paying $3,000.00 EACH for Styr service rifles. I'm out of touch with weaponry these days, but it seems to me that you could buy two well machined sporting rifles, retail, for that much. I wonder how much the venerable AK 47 costs our potential enemies?

By all means, lets send our troops into combat with two sporting rifles each (well-machined ones of course).

Otherwise I'm sure they will love being issued with AK47s or some other real cheap option.

Bugsy,

You don't have any idea. $3,000 for a mass produced rifle, made under licence in Australia, is ludicrous.

Not only is the cost ludicrous but so is the range, our troops were consistently out ranged in Afghanistan by tribesmen using rifles of WW II and earlier vintage.
For effective long range shooting the Australian forces now use the American SR25 in 7.62 x 51mm NATO which is a much more effective round than the 5.56mm round of the Steyr.
The plant that was at Lithgow for the manufacture of the very effective L1A1 (the SLR) was 'sold' (read given) to Indonesia.

There are flow-on negative consequences of political populism. The politicians know that, but the 24hr news cycle and 'gotcha journalism', the ABC leads in that, make for short term popularity over statesmanship.

Actually ttbn, I just have no interest, as do probably most posters here.

You looked lonely, but now it seems you have a new friend to play with who shares your interest in military weapons. So, good luck with that.

Bugsy,

You might show more interest when Australia is invaded by people using the more reliable AK47, cheap as chips and indestructible. I cringe when see our troops plodding around in vast deserts with their over-priced plastic pop guns - maximum effective range 300 metres. Of course, Australia's military is more interested in the ladies and men who 'identify' as ladies these days. They share your disinterest in weaponry and defence.

Hi there TTBN...

What! I don't believe it? We make these weapons at the SAF Lithgow under licence, at $3,000 each! A thorough audit into their mfg. practices should be ordered forthwith. Incidentally I've been over the SAF, and generally speaking they're a pretty decent operation - still, that was over twenty five years ago now?

Hi (again) TTBN & IS MISE...

Will both of you please stop it, you're making me very very depressed indeed with what you're both saying!

The ARA Bn I served with, we were originally issued with SMLE's .303 No1 Mklll's, later converted to the L1A1 7.62 NATO SLR in 1962. Both were exceptional weapons with the SLR well ahead for obvious reasons. In Vietnam we converted to the M16's in .223 which were OK I suppose for the bush, though lighter in weight then the SLR, lacked the wherewithal for the comprehensive knockdown ability the SLR was noted for.

And that 'petticoat' general TTBN, that endeavoured greatly to feminise the Australian Defence Force, has thankfully retired I think? It's no wonder there's so many blokes returning from Afghanistan with PTSD, when this non-combatant Lt. Gen. is more interested in women's rights, then giving the troops the necessary 'Real & Moral' support they richly deserve. 'ALL members' of the ADF, irrespective of gender, are entitled to the full respect due to them!

After all isn't the primary function and responsibility of a good leader to look after all those who're under his command, rather than to marginalise one group from the other?

It isn't only what appear to be useless rifles.

Go back to Nov 2015 and there was this revelation.

"Defence will be forced to strip tonnes of ammunition and fuel from Australia's M1-A1 Abrams tanks after a recent upgrade bungle caused them to be too heavy for landing boats.

Australia's Canberra class amphibious assault ships are designed to deploy a thousand troops into battle, their landing craft especially chosen because they could also carry Australia's M1-A1 Abrams tanks.
But following a recent upgrade the Abrams is now too heavy for the landing boats."

Just what we need soldiers with rifles that can't shoot far supported by tanks with limited fuel and ammunition.

Philip S, "Just what we need soldiers with rifles that can't shoot far supported by tanks with limited fuel and ammunition"

Only need some more generals devoid of combat experience and with an eye for currying favour with populist politicians to completely destroy the morale of the ADF and its defence capability.

OSW,

The "petticoat" general, however, is now Australian of the Year. The Lt. Colonel, a male who 'identifies' as a woman, was a nominee for the farcical award. 'It' still 'fancies' women, though, and has had none of the alterations necessary to be a virtual woman. Really great 'defence' force we have. And the slacko politicians don't want armed civilians!

From my sons description of his training of navy officer cadets, It probably doesn't matter what we give the current crop. He was supposed to be giving engineering training, but somehow ended up with seamanship & weapons training added to his brief.

His description of most of them at the range.

When prone, they would shove the butt into the ground, & sort of lie on it. They would then look vaguely over the end of the barrel, pointing it somewhat towards the mound, [where the targets are], then shut both eyes before jerking on the trigger. Even by the end of the day, 35% of them were still shutting their eyes in anticipation of the loud bang. This probably didn't matter much, as most of them could not remember which eye to close anyway.

After some thought he added, "Oh & the girls were even worse".

The really frightening thing is, that these were people volunteering to join the defence force, study at Duntroon, & lead our defence of the future. If such people are so incompetent, what must the average urbanised population be like? God help us if we ever need to do another Kokoda, with a similarly quickly raised & partly trained militia force.

Yep. Dud tanks. Dud submarines (although I believe they are OK now, when they are about to be retired). And the goings on about new submarines seems to more about jobs for the people who buggered up the current one than it is about the defence of Australia. Defence spending is stupidly low, but what they do spend is spent stupidly as well. Makes you feel vulnerable; especially with China rattling swords in the South China Sea, and that country's failing economy. The Phillipines has found it necessary to enter a defence pact with Japan because of Chinese belligerence. Australia needs to look sharp. Even Ho Chi Min is reported as having said that the white man is finished in Asia, but " I would rather put up with French s..t than put up with Chinese s..t".

I really don't understand what's happened to our country. All our old standards, principles, ethics, regulatory practices, morality, and self-respect have diminished?

And finally our Armed Forces, an institution where my family were well represented over the generations, like many of yours. Commencing with my paternal grandfather, who served in the Anglo-Boer War and my maternal grandfather at the Somme in WWl. Even that revered institution hasn't escaped this social contagion?

A formidable organisation like our Armed Forces, one suffused in history and dominated by lofty standards and achievable benchmarks; Even our famed Military has become so politically correct it's now wallowing directionless, weighed down by a profusion of petticoats and 'guarded conversations'.

A private chat, if inadvertently overheard by a fellow member of your platoon, and subsequently divulged to the Military hierarchy, could determine it's a little too distressing, even upsetting for some of those delicate mortals serving, who would involuntarily quiver and tremble if their political sensitivities become bruised?

Reference the overweight tanks and such; I well remember how in the 1960s it was decided that we had to many different types of small arms ammunition and that the situation needed to be rationalized so that there was less variety and less money spent.
After much thought by a panel of 'experts' we ended up with some ammunition eliminated and some added, the upshot was that the total of types of SA ammo rose by one.

o sung wu,

I modified some SLRs during the Vietnam War for the use of BHQ guards (ostensibly), the theory being that when they went off help would come running.
I cut the barrels off an inch or so in front of the gas block and fitted a Mk V Bren flash eliminator (more for looks than anything else), converted them to full auto by fitting the change lever from the L2A1 and used 30 round magazines from it as well.
They went off with a roar that could be heard at a 1,000 yards and a most impressive muzzle flash.

I'm sure that as a 'sub-machine gun' they'd have had no equal!!

Hi there IS MISE...

Where were you when we needed you? Seriously, the old SLR was a great rifle and you felt confident that what you hit was indeed hit! While a bit heavy to lug around in the field all day, nevertheless it was a well proven Self Loading Rifle, and almost indestructible provided you kept it reasonably clean.

A good armourer could modify them to do anything you asked of it, including converting into full rock 'n roll, as you done incorporating the change lever of L2A1 and adding a 30 rd magazine. A truly formidable weapon system I reckon. An Aussie version of the AK-47, do you think? Speak again soon until then, keep your powder dry IS MISE.

o sung wu,

I forgot to mention that the trigger return plunger had to be changed or shortened as it was made long to stop the troops from removing the change lever of the L1A1 and firing full auto.
It was a good rifle but some of the changes that were made from the parent Browning, to save production costs, ended up costing more in repairs than was saved.

The rifle ripoff is unlikely to be the largest.
The cake will be taken by ordering 12 diesel submarines from no matter where.
In the event of real confrontation we will get one patrol out of them
and they will be then tied up at the dock for the duration.

Australia will have no fuel by then unless they could run on natural gas.
No refineries means no fuel. Imports would be unlikely as the insurers
would stop all tankers heading for Australia.
Sydney needs two a day, I don't know what the total would be for
Australia, six a day perhaps, which means a total of around 200 tankers.
All that instead of buying say three US nuclear submarines.
My polly tells me cabinet discussed the nuclear subs but decided against.

Ismise: I forgot to mention that the trigger return plunger had to be changed or shortened as it was made long to stop the troops from removing the change lever of the L1A1 and firing full auto.
It was a good rifle but some of the changes that were made from the parent Browning, to save production costs, ended up costing more in repairs than was saved.

Nah, All you had to do was take the spring from on top of the Holding Open Device & put it underneath like it was originally designed in the FN.

Yes, a few of our Scouts did the same in 1 R.A.R 65/66. The trouble with the SLR was it was full of sticky out bits that caught on every dam thing. Barrel & Gas Plug, Front sights, Back Sights, Magazine & Release Lever, Carrying Handle & sling things. First thing I did was to remove that bloody carrying handle. Of course it depended on weather you were in close country or walking through the wide open spaces of Paddy fields in single file on the Paddy Bunds. ;-) So much for Open File in Open Country. Something they refused to teach once back in Australia.

I believe when the Styer was first introduced in the mid 80's it was Modified for Safety reasons ?? & that modification got a couple of Diggers killed.

Hi there IS MISE...

I wasn't aware of any (inferior) cost cutting in the production process initiated by Browning themselves, where the L1A1's were concerned? A real pity as most of the troops liked the weapon, which proved to be miles ahead of the legendary Bolt action SMLE .303, which it subsequently replaced. Still and all, the old .303 proved itself invincible, time after time after time!

As far as any grunt inspired, unauthorised conversion from semi-auto to that of full rock 'n roll, I wasn't shown how it was done, therefore I remained in a state of innocent oblivion? Obviously some very naughty 'armourer' led some poorly informed grunt astray, by showing him how to achieve this conversion? They were the days eh IS MISE a bit of true Aussie ingenuity and resourcefulness, without all this damn political correctness perpetuated by these 'petticoat' Generals!

I say chaps, do not worry about the grunts. One of the "new" F35s will cost so much that there will be no cash left for anything else.
Shame they do not work.

The NZ Army has decided to replace its Steyr AUG rifles (which were similar to the ADF ones), with the US made LMT CQB16 (similar to the rifles used by the US Army). The CQB16 retails for about AU$3,000. In contrast a AK47 style US132Z from Kalashnikov USA is about AU$1,300. However, it should be noted that these prices are for a "dumb" gun, before optics, lasers and other accessories are added. Also the rifle is a small part of that of the cost of training and equipping a soldier.

Once we got back to Bein Hoa the word spread like wild fire. On the Next OP the Cattle Trucks were waiting to take us to the Snake Pit. Where C Coy, Detached, 1st Air Cav was waiting for us. Kris Kristofferson's Unit. When the Battalion arrived at the Truck embarcation every man, Offers included had an SLR. The RSM called a halt to the loading & ordered the Officers, Section Commanders & Scouts to be issued with Owen Guns. The Battalion refused enmass. The RSM wanted to charge the entire Battalion with failing to Obey a Direct Order & Munity. He couldn't because we were already on the Trucks ready to go. After we were about an hour late the Yanks turned up & wanted to know why were weren't at the Snake Pit. The problem was explained to them. About a half hour later two Duce & a Half turned up loaded with M16. The Quarter tonner had the Ammo already in Magazines.

Well the place went wild & everybody grabbed what they could & back on the Trucks. The RSM, RP's & MP's couldn't contain the riot. The SLR were chucked to the proverbial all over the place. The Trucks just took off to the Snake Pit. There was lots of grinning going on as those with an M16 held their prize. Then came the realization that the were still loaded up with 5 SLR Magazines & 100 rounds of Clip of 7.62mm. These were dumped on the Tarmac or left in the Trucks.

Then, there was another problem. We were in the Air & the LZ was hot & the ones with M16 had no training on the Weapon. The Yanks Door Gunners had 20 minutes to train us before we hit the deck. But that was no problem to us Aussies.
cont.

Cont.
After the Op. The Officers were lined up on the Parade Ground & given a dressing down by Lt Col Preese, the CO not to mention the RSM.

The Battalion withdrew the Owen Guns & issued the Officers, Section Commanders & Scouts with M16 & the rest were taken back to Australia. Enough to equip every Battalion in the Army. When 5 & 6 Battalions arrived in Country though they still had the Owen Gun. Apparently the Weapon had to undergo a lengthy trial before being issued out to the Battalions. Would you know it.

Unfortunately, you won't find this in "Official History" because it would be a source of embarrassment. Never-the-less this is the true story. We often joke about it at our Reunions at Woolgoolga every two years. CO's, RSM's The OC, Black Jack MacFarland's (dec) son & about 100 others always turn up although we're going outside the wire fast these days.

he first bit of the story. That missed the post.

On my first Op in Viet Nam my platoon came across a small group of VC in a cleared section of J. On the initial contact 1 dead 2 wounded & two escaped off to the north & two to the south. My section chased the two going north. The Scout hit one of them with a long burst from his Owen Gun at about 15 metres. I was about 5 metres behind him. Have you ever dropped marbles in to a bucket of water, That's what 9mm rounds look like hitting bare flesh. In slow motion. The VC kept running & we failed to find him even after following the blood trail. We did find an additional camp though.

ttbn I knew that Bruce Jenner kept the full meat and two veg, had silicone implants, put on a dress and called himself a "Woman called Caitlyn"? Do not tell me General Malcolm pulled the same stunt?
Sorry call me old fashioned but they are both having a laugh on us surely. Before you reply I won't call you Shirley again.

Hi there JAYB...

Your memory is astounding I gotta say. Half Col PREECE was CO of 1RAR I think, and you would've been at Coral or was it 3RAR? I thought it was 1RAR and a Coy of Kiwi 'drop shorts', were there as well? Nearby FSB Balmoral saw a lot with two separate battles and nearly 30 KIA? Except for the Centurions there might've been even more.

I wouldn't wish to spend time in a Tank despite the surrounding protective armour, the heat would've been tough, bad enough as it was outside the damn thing, with humidity + heat + dust, a real pressure cooker type of environment. You were saying you didn't like the SLR's too many 'sticky out' bits, which caught on just about everything? Be hard to find any military weapon system, that didn't catch on scrub and the like, the nature of the beast I expect.

Keep your powder dry JAYB PS: Have you been back by chance?

You're a bit mixed up there OSW. I was there in 65/66. 4 Sec, 5 Pl, B. Coy., 1 R.A.R., 173D (Sep) Airborne Brigade. Bein Hoa.

1 R.A.R. made up the third Battalion of the 173D Airborne. along with 1 & 2 503rd. Other Australian Units there at the time were P.W.L.H. now 1 Cav. They were a CMF Unit from Brisbane. 105 Battery, 1 A.L.S.C, 3 Field Troop Eng, 17 Construction Eng. 161 R.E.C.E. A RAEME unit. A Sig Unit, & the Australian Hospital. This Hospital Unit was transferred to China Beach when we left & is the Basis for the TV Series "China Beach."

In fact there were 19 Australian Units of the 32 Units of the Brigade at Bein Hoa. Although the Yank Units were bigger. Charlie Company, 1st Air Cav. was attached to us & transported us everywhere we had to go. A couple of times a day in Eagle Flights. 5 Seconds to get on 4 Seconds to get off whilst still moving forward. Wasn't that fun. 7 to 9 men per Chopper, no seat belts, mostly sitting on the floor or riding the Skids. WH&S would have been appalled. ;-) 1st Air Cav used to throw out an Ace of Spades every time they touched down. The Death from above Card. I had one for years but it's gone now.

Cont.

Coral/Balmoral were much later when 1 R.A.R. went back for its Second tour. It was the biggest & most successful battle of Viet Nam War. I wasn't involved. But I was at Ho Bo Woods. Between the two Chu Chi Tourist Tunnel Sites. There would have been nothing left at Ho Bo Woods after we left because they was a 7 plane B52 strike on it as we left. In fact My chopper was still on the ground after they had released their bombs. The Chopper Pilot was in a panic because we were chasing a young lad about 17 who had been sniping & purposely missing us for 7 days. He ran under a hut which had a tunnel that only went from one side to the other & wouldn't come out. My mate I& I dropped a grenade each entrance. It was quick. We claimed Half each.

When we made it back to the Chopper it flew sideways for about a K with the blades chopping through the grass. then we watched 30 tons of Bombs from 7 B52 obliterate the area. Spectacular. The Pilot was pissed off with us for making him wait so long. We did get the young fellers rifle. It was an old 1898 octagonal barrel Winchester. The Barrel had split & was bound up with Bamboo. I think we were lucky.

Jayb,

Geez, I'm glad that I was safely tucked in as a civvy at 2 Base Wksp RAEME Morebank and only giving very very long range support.

'evening there JAYB...

As I said your memory of events is astounding. You spoke of Choppers, I recall our insertions from the UH-1B, 9Sqn with our back up against the hell hole firewall without the benefit of harnesses or riding the skids as you say. While both the gunners where elaborately secured. Talking about the B52's watching the 'sound and light show' over the Long Hai's at night when sortie after sortie bombed the bejesus out of them.

While strengthening the defences at 'The Horseshoe' near Dat Do, we strung a stack of wire, and laid heaps of Claymores and M16 Jumping Jacks, between the two rows of wire, so infiltration was damn near impossible.

Anyway they got this bright idea of creating this mammoth obstacle of two rows of wire about six feet in height and laying M16 mines between the rows. All the way from Dat Do, running it down to the coast, a distance of about five or so miles? Whoever thought up these bright ideas didn't have to lay the stuff, in the heat, dust, and humidity! All too long ago now I'm afraid.

o sung wu,

Fascinating stuff. Korea was extremely hot in the summer but tended to be more dry heat; the roads were dusty as they were all dirt except in the cities.
Winter was even dustier as there was no rain to lay the dust for a bit; was a sight to see the snow brown for a few yards on either side of the roads.
Did you ever recover mines?
That was a FUN job!!

osw: Anyway they got this bright idea of creating this mammoth obstacle of two rows of wire about six feet in height and laying M16 mines between the rows.

The Mine field was Brigadier Gramhams idea. It turned into aa Armory for the VC. That's where they got all their Mines from. You don't lay a Mine Field unless it's covered by fire. He broke all the Rules. He was my CO when I was Staff at Battle School at Canungra in 65. Nice guy but he should have known better.

Is Mise: Did you ever recover mines? That was a FUN job!!

Nah... We'd lay them at night on paths & Recover them in the morning Clearing Patrol. P o'P

Hi there IS MISE...

Generally heat itself didn't bother me, but with all the gear you carried, constantly wet GPB's because of the need to wade through endless paddy fields, and the monsoons (in the wet season) plus the ever present humidity that's what stuffed me. And who'd believe dust was a problem in such a tropical environment when everything had a covering of mildew and mold.

Hi there JAYB...

Far be it for me to cast aspersions on the tactical competence of a senior officer. I think maybe their original thinking concerning protecting the mine field during it's initial stages, they were covered by M60's from the 'shoe? Problem being of course, a 7.62mm doesn't have the range from the Horseshoe gun bays to the coast, which was a good 5 miles or so in distance! The amount of M16's lifted by the VC would equip 'em for the entire war? Anyway they wanted a sequence of wire strung, strung wire was what they got, with me often ending up on a damn strainer.

While at the 'shoe, we did some running repairs and a bit of minor re-building at the local high school at the Dat Do village, which had suffered a bit of ordnance damage. The kids seemed to appreciate our efforts though you couldn't really tell, student by day, VC by night? Still it was a bit of a change?

Jayb,

I was really thinking of mines that 'nasty' people had buried and who may or may not have put a grenade under their mines.

s Mise: I was really thinking of mines that 'nasty' people had buried and who may or may not have put a grenade under their mines.

No, I never deloused any of our VC laid M18's. On the last light Clearing Patrol we would lay a couple of M18's on the tracks out the front & a Claymore then pick them up on the morning clearing Patrol. One Safety pin under the 3 little spikes & the Safety Retaining clip below that & it was safe again. Heaps o' times. We were pretty blasé about the whole procedure. I could even do now with my eyes closed even now.

The Yanks gave us the M79 too. Great, except the early ones armed about 3 feet out from the barrel. Good stuff in close Country, eh. The Yanks recalled all the 40mm ammo & adjusted the Arming range to 15 feet. Better. but still a bit of a shock in Close Country. ;-) It was all a learning experience for the Yanks as well as us too. Don't forget this was the start of "The Helicopter War" in Vietnam & we were all learning. The early M16's didn't have the Bolt assist & would jam if they got dirty from Carbon build up. Then there was the problem with the Flash Hider which was a three pronged thing which got tangled in everything. Many a young soldier nearly shot his own toes off. (Runnin' throu' da Jungle) The later ones were replaced with the enclosed Flash Hider.

I've been minding my families two dogs & two cats. One beautiful quite unflappable very old Husky, Buddy. & Harry, Hairy Humpin', Hypo, Harry. about a rat sized mixture. We had big storms the other night (SE Qld) & Buddy was frantic I sat with him for most of the night. In the morning the neighbour came through the gate & Buddy took off. By the time we got dressed & looked for him he had got into the Farm next door & was coming up the fence on the wrong side. The Farmer could see we were calling him. He called Buddy over & shot him in the head. We called the police & I described what had happened & the weapon used. A 7 shot .22 Colt Peacemaker with a 9.5" barrel. He has waved it in my face a few times over the side fence. All the Cop could say was, " How do you could you identify that it was a Colt Peacemaker. We didn't have .22 pistols in the Army." I was a bit pissed off with the Copper.

I think every boy of our age grew up with a toy one for a start. Besides I was my Units unofficial Armorer. They don't teach Additional Stripping & Assembling in the ARES & I am proficient in everything from a Shanghai to a 105mm Recoilless Rifle & most Russian Weapons.

Apparently nothing could be done because he has more than 40 Acres & "I knows my rights, & if any dog comes on my property I will shoot it & did."

Unfortunately, Buddy belonged originally to one of those bad Bikie boys from the Gold Coast & Cutting toes off is his thing. He's in jail. My Son-in-Law has a Mail Run & this guy gave him the dog to look after. They went to America for 6 weeks & we are looking after their Pets. Now Buddy dead & the Guy will be have to informed as to what happened. Strangely I don't feel sorry for the Farmer.

Sorry, I just had to talk.

That's OK Jayb, a nasty experience, I share you unconcern for the farmer.

Did you ever see an M16 with leprosy?
We got quite a few in Base Wksp for repair; it was eventually put down to the diet of our soldiers being richer in meat and consequently salt.
What was happening was that the sweat was eating pin holes in the hard outer skin of the aluminium castings, particularly above the pistol grip, then the corrosion would spread fairly quickly in the softer inner metal then break out, looked nasty but didn't overly weaken the rifle.
Edit Comment

'evening to you JAYB...

You talk all you like my friend. Speaking of equalisers the M18A1 worked a treat if staged correctly, like all mines they had their limitations, though their blast effect was amazing. Out to 30 yards, if you were in the 80 degree fatal zone, you were history.

That was a weak act to have shot 'Buddy'? Doesn't the farmer know dogs don't like thunderstorms or any other sustained loud noises? Whether the dog's on his 40 acres or not, common sense, and a bit of humanity should've indicated the dog was either lost, frightened by the weather or whatever? What's the point of shooting him, makes him a big man, all because the law allows him to do so?

The copper's first question should've been directed to the actual legality of his 'piece' this .22RF Colt Peacemaker. Wouldn't he need a regular pistol licence to legally own the thing in the first place?

I dunno mate the world's stuffed, shooting a harmless dog who's only crime, he was so frightened to innocently venture on to this 'hero's' farm, what a maggot!

Buy more submarines - BUT they had better be remote controlled.
I think we would be better of buying and stocking up on ICBM's.
STORY
http://www.theage.com.au/national/public-service/hello-sailor-navy-offers-50000-per-man-in-bid-to-keep-sub-fleet-afloat-20160203-gml880.html
Navy offers $50,000 per man in bid to keep sub fleet afloat.

Sailors on Australia's submarines will be given annual lump sum payments of up to $50,000 just for staying in their jobs as navy bosses grow increasingly desperate to keep crews on the boats.

The navy's high command hopes the big money offer will end their long struggle to hold on to enough sailors to maintain Australia's vital submarine warfare capability.

The unprecedented offer of different pay and working conditions to one arm of a Defence service follows a frank admission by top naval brass that the ranks of Australia's submarines crews are under-strength and fragile.

Navy personnel have been told that submariners will have their salaries topped-up by between $15,000 and $50,000, according to experience, each year they continued serving with the sub fleet, either on land or sea.

Under the "deliberately differentiated employment conditions" (ddp) those who take to the water will continue to receive their submarine maritime disability allowance and maritime sustainability allowances, along with the new lump sums in what is hoped to be a powerful financial incentive to stay with the subs or to sign up with the service.

But the lump sums will replace existing retention payments.

Sailors will be able to cash-out some the large leave balances they accumulated in recent years and the submariners's leave arrangements will be reformed in a move to offer greater work-life balance.

In his message to all his personnel, Chief of Navy Tim Barrett did not try to gloss over the problems his force had experienced trying to keep a well-trained force of submariners in their jobs.

Crew shortages were a key reason behind the navy's struggles to keep a full force of Collins Class subs in the water, although the technical issues dogging the Collins boats have improved in the past three years.