I had a young butcher try out for work today, fully qualified by one of the big two retailers. As far as they and his RTO (registered training officer) are concerned, he is a qualified butcher.

So I asked him to denude some knuckles, a simple task yet he hesitated saying he had not done this for some time but he eventually picked it up.

I then asked him to bone out a couple of pork forequarters. He didn't know how to or even where to start. He then told me his work history.

He started almost six years ago and they still broke lambs/pigs so he has some memory, however, into his second year they removed band saws from their meat rooms so he never used one again.

So what I want to know is how the heck can this kid (he is 27 BTW) get a real job as nobody can pay him tradesman's wages, yet by all accounts he is entitled to them. He did offer to work for reduced wages which was to his credit however I advised that this would be illegal under the current IR laws.

Also, how can these retailers get away with employing these people as apprentices, paying them reduced wages, and collecting subsidies along the way without actually training them.

Then of course there is the RTO who has been paid to monitor and record his progress and eventually sign him off.

Talk about screw with peoples minds.

Isn't there a comprehensive list of skills a butcher should have?

The writing was on the wall as soon as they started cutting back on funding TAFE.

Our delusion politicians believe that some how "competition" will increase and improve outcomes, when all it has done, is made a few individuals extremely wealthy.

//Also, how can these retailers get away with employing these people as apprentices, paying them reduced wages, and collecting subsidies along the way without actually training them.//

It's not unusual - as an apprentice chef I worked for employers who understood the nature of apprenticeship and gave me training. But I also worked (very briefly) for employers who just used apprentices as cheap labour. It's quite commonplace in kitchens, and I assume it wouldn't be much different in other trades.

There are some large boat building firms who do the same thing.

Their apprentices qualify as boat builders, & they are trained to do nothing but assemble fiberglass boats, using laser cut panels for cabin work, & bolt on mechanical components.

An example of exploitation on behalf of the worker as is said cheap labour. Do your duty as a citizen in informing the Accc or fair work Australia about that person and where he did his time. That is not fair on him or the nation.

Yes David there is a list of skills but somehow these guys get away with it.

579, I may well do this because while this guy set out with the best of intentions, he has clearly been misled and now has to find someone who will pay him trademans wages and train him.

Toni,
Yep it's rife in hospitality, I managed a cafe once where the owners exploited those schemes for the long term unemployed, they'd get subsidised workers, claim the $1000 bonus then sack them when the minimum term was up. It was a nightmare just on the principle of the thing but the worst part was having this two tiered workforce, there were three of us who were full time, experienced and competent and usually between three and five of these young casuals who were for the most part mentally ill or handicapped in some way but not so severely that they qualified for disability.
It was just horrible, some of them were so bad you couldn't let them near the customers but the worst were the kids who'd been born with a good brain but grown up in poverty with little schooling, that was heartbreaking because they'd just be getting up to speed and trying really hard then they'd be laid off.
I lasted a year there and then had a fight with the owner and walked out, it was a truly depressing experience and I vowed I'd never work in hospitality again.

Sadly, since the demise of the CES these employment groups are simply driven by money which is being wasted in the millions by governments simply because a signature on a piece of paper is more important than anything else.

Personally, I wont train a person unless they are willing to succeed and if they are, they are not signed off unless I feel they are competent. They don't have to be excellent, just competent in the roles they are performing because speed and industry knowledge is something that is gained through years of experience.

I consider my self an excellent well skilled butcher, but when I first qualified back in 81 was, although I could do everything required I was only an average butcher. But to qualify a person who is clearly lacking even the basic skills is borderline criminal in my view.

Meat retailing,

http://www.qtis.training.qld.gov.au/Qualification/Details?modelCode=MTM30813&version=0&trainingCatalogNumber=21242

One of the big industrial crimes in Australia is the exploration of young people. Have you ever asked why the majority of employees at your local supermarket remain forever young. Down at my local Wollies , the majority have remained 17 for the last 20 years. Where do they go?
Butch, my oldest sons best mate (they started Kindy together) now in their 30's Best mate was not the sharpest tool in the shed when it came to school, in fact he was near the bottom of the class. When they left school BM got an apprenticeship with a small butcher, he hasn't looked back, still works as a butcher and has done well for himself.
p/s I once thought BM would end up in jail, not in a shop.

Greetings Butch.....as you are aware the curriculum for trade apprentices ensures an understanding of the duties and procedures required to accomplish the tasks involved in that particular trade. The practice execution of those tasks is taught by on the job experience during the apprenticeship.

I have heard of similar observations in both the electrical and carpentry trades. As examples consider an electrical trades apprentice who has spent his apprenticeship working for a company that installs commercial electrical equipment to factories. If he leaves that job and works for a contractor that puts in the electrical wires in buildings during construction, he has not got a clue as to how to go about it, but he is still a qualified electrician.

Or the apprentice carpenter who did his time for a company that carried out small handyman level carpentry, ask him to do the roof joists of a new building and he is lost, given he spent his time swinging doors and putting in windows. Butch, I am a hydrologist and the work I have done for the agronomy sector and the work I have done for the mining segment have the same core principals, but the practical execution require hands on experience. Your job is to train the kid, it is not a failing in the apprenticeship curriculum, rather the training to proficiency is ongoing at site.

Dead wrong sonofgloin, if someone has a trade certificate, they must be capable of doing all the work that certificate entitles them to do. Any member of the public should be able to hire a qualified electrician, [or any tradesman], & be able to expect up to standard work from that tradesman. The same should go for plumbers or motor mechanics. They should not have to be able to oversee the work.

A complaint from my son, about defence force training is that most of their trained trades people are better than civy street people, but are not granted trade certificates, without civy work time. On ships navy electricians have to handle multiple sources of generation, run 415, 240 & 120 power circuits, both maintenance & new, but are not allowed to change a light switch on a shore base.

If it is good enough to expect those highly trained & competent people to play with mickey mouse house wiring people, to get their certificate, it is reasonable to expect those mickey mouse trained people to gain full competency before getting a ticket.

Thank you, you blokes, this has been a real education. Is it time for a shake-up of the entire apprenticeship system ? Should TAFE/VET etc. be replaced nation-wide ?

Cheers,

Joe

Hi Butch,

In 40 years of work in the metal industry I both seen and supervised many apprentices, all stating as fresh faced young boys, (the days before girls were given a go), and hopefully finishing up as first class tradesmen. All were given the best of training over 4 years, both on the job, and at tech, after 2 years they were moved from department to department to cover as many aspects of their trade as possible, they were paid well, not so much in the first couple of years, but later when the company had the option of taking them on, or letting them go, at the end of their time.

Roughly speaking, about a third turned out first class, a third competent, but nothing special, and the rest failures or useless, who mostly were forced out, or gave the trade away. The best were always encouraged to go to the Engineering Office, and go on, ex-tradies (like myself) always make the best Engineers, with a mix of the theory as well as the practical. I believe my trade background always made me a better Engineer, and just about everyday I would call on my practical experience in the trade to help me with engineering.

Sonofgloin I disagree with your view as the apprenticeship board is responsible for issuing the tickets for the trainers/assessors and the assessors are responsible for issuing the tickets for the apprentices. So the assessor in this case knowingly issues a certificate of completion when the person was not competent enough to be classed as a tradesperson.

The employer simply milked the system for what it was worth.

Yeah,ok Butch, you are at the coal face and I am not in this instance, there may be a dereliction of due diligence regarding the competence of this young guy. Although I have to add that the points I made regarding experience in a particular field of the trade is still valid.

Paul,

Spot on.
I spent a number of years at a major dockyard as a Metrologist and the apprentices there were treated as you describe, except that the pass rate was much higher, but that was probably more a reflection of initial selection than anything else.
Some of the apprentices went on to become seagoing Ships Engineers and others literally became Journeyman Tradesmen and seeking further experience went to Dockyards in the UK and Europe for a few years.