So Aidan, what you are actually saying is, "now is a good time for those with a few bob, who can afford the almost useless solar panels on their roof, to rip off those who can't by cashing in to the crazy subsidies governments in their stupidity have offered".

Like our ratbag PM Turnbull, who bought some greenie kudos by banning proper light bulbs, in favour of the very dangerous to us & the environment, compact fluorescent bulbs, governments have totally lost the plot on energy.

Stupidity & rip off merchants are alive & well in Oz today.

Those expensive 'green' electric light bulbs,

Cleaning up a broken CFL or fluorescent globe
http://www.zerowaste.sa.gov.au/your-questions/4770

That information must have been known prior to their introduction. So why was't anything said? There were no warnings on packs either, apart from the get out of gaol free card for the sellers, 'Dispose of sensitively'.

Solar home generation
Hasbeen is right again. For eventual cost recovery and 'low' power usage bills, solar power relies on the taxpayer and other non-solar users to subsidise. Just think, the power generation is when everyone is out of the house, at work, school and play.

It was always slick political populism and still is.

Solar hot water makes some sense. Makers (maybe their accountants) design for frequent replacement though.

Dear Aidan,

<<BTW I think you missed my point: putting solar panels on your roof is not like getting a tree that will grow in 10 years to produce great nuts; 'tis more like getting a mature tree that will immediately produce great nuts and is likely to do so for the next twenty years.>>

Perhaps so, but I won't do either. I will not purchase even a mature tree until and unless I have the money (or exchange-goods/services) to pay for it. Otherwise I would just do without (or with less) power or food. Perhaps all I can afford is to purchase a seedling and wait 10 years.

<<As for debt, if nobody borrows then nobody could save, as there wouldn't be any money available to save. And nations do not die like humans.>>

Why, there is real tangible wealth going around, commodities and products that others need and/or trust, so one can always save those. The alternative to borrowing is to hand over some of what you already saved in exchange for the goods/services that you want. Now money can still be used because it's more convenient to transact, so long as it ultimately represents something real such as bags of rice, barrels of petrol, land or gold.

<<And do you really think you're liable for debts incurred before you were born?>>

Why then would you agree to be born to such a situation where you are already in debt? Or once you find out about it, why don't you commit suicide?
You don't have to be born and you don't have to stay alive. Yes, bodies are constantly born, but you don't have to associate yourself with one of those unless you agree to (and then you are responsible).

Yuyutsu,

If you're so debt averse that you'd pass up good investment opportunities just to avoid borrowing, that's your business. But it would be irresponsible for a government or a corporation to do likewise.

I did not say the solar panels would require you to borrow money; I merely said they were a good investment. With interest rates this low, savers are also looking for things to do with their money, and this doesn't look like a good year to for the stock market.

Yes there is real tangible wealth. Hoarding it is not virtuous!

Apart from the small proportion of money that's kept as cash, all money is debt; it wouldn't exist unless someone borrowed it. And if you save money in a bank, that bank then has a debt to you.

For most of the 20th century, government deficits enabled the private sector to save. Now there is opposition to government borrowing from people who don't comprehend that money has to go somewhere and has to come from somewhere. It doesn't make sense to want to use new money yet oppose bringing new money into existence.

"Why then would you agree to be born to such a situation where you are already in debt?"
I didn't. I don't share your weird beliefs.

"Or once you find out about it, why don't you commit suicide?"
Life is a gift from God. It's worth living, and debt wouldn't change that.

"You don't have to be born and you don't have to stay alive."
Reminds me of the old song...

Original version:
# Why was she born so beautiful?
# Why was she born at all?
# Because she had no say in it
# No say in it at all

...and the Aussie variant (to the tune of Advance Australia Fair):
# Why was she born so ugg-er-ly?
# Why was she born at all?
# Because she had no say in it
# Her parents did it all!

onthebeach and Hasbeen,

CFLs only have a small amount of mercury in them, and are recyclable. The amount of mercury released into the environment from them is tiny compared to the amount released by burning coal to generate electricity.

Solar power is no longer subsidised by the taxpayers. There's still some cross subsidy from other electricity users, but as the solar power has the direct effect of driving electricity prices down, a lot of the benefits flow to the other users.

Dear Aidan,

Just to clarify, I do not recommend suicide, I just left this example for those who do not believe in reincarnation. What I do recommend instead is that one should not die with debts, then they will not be born with debts the next time around where even bankruptcy/insolvency would not help. And no-one can tell when they will die.

You claim that hoarding is not virtuous and I partially agree. The highest option is to be a sannyas: go about careless doing only spiritual practices, so if others feed you then you eat and otherwise you go hungry and eventually starve.

Yet if you are not up to it and unwilling to go hungry (and let's be honest, most of us aren't), then in a society like this which does not appreciate sanniasins, the next alternative is to receive tax-payer money, in which case hoarding your own money is far superior than that!

So unless you are saint, it is good for you to hoard enough to sustain yourself in a reasonable manner for the rest of your expected life. You don't need to actually hoard useful but perishable goods - you can instead hoard gold or money which represent those goods and you may also keep it in a safe in the bank so it doesn't get stolen.

Unfortunately, in this day and age, the government deliberately creates inflation, so you cannot keep your wealth in cash-in-the-safe, but are forced to deposit it in a bank with interest just to maintain its value. You cannot even keep it in gold, or in a stable foreign currency, etc. because when you sell that gold or currency, you would be required to pay CGT on the nominal-only increase in the price of gold.

Yes, the amount of money is currently way beyond the actual goods that it represents. That's fraud, it is wrong and the bubble is bound to explode sooner or later.