I thought it may be interesting to bring this
up for a discussion now that enough time has
gone by. We should be able to have a
calm and well reasoned debate on the topic.
What prompted his party to choose to elect
another party leader?

And why is his replacement so popular - as the
polls would have us believe?

Your thoughts please?

Hi Foxy, yes I think this is a good topic to explore now.
Most forum regulars already know how I felt about Tony Abbott's form of politics, and it was mostly negative!

I would suggest that he was mostly unpopular with female voters, or at least with all the ones I spoke to, except my Mother. She would have voted for the Liberals if Jack The Ripper was at the helm though :).

Abbott just made too many public gaffes to ever remain popular with female voters. Who can forget his comments re women and ironing, his wish for his daughters 'giving' their virginity to their husband, talking about young female political colleagues as having ' a bit of sex appeal', and how the carbon tax repeal would mainly affect women.
His signature policy that he took to the election was paid parental leave, but he didn't honor that.
He had one woman on his front bench, but no one was surprised.

He alienated male voters (as well as even more females) almost as much though, with his dreadful comment "S##t happens", after the death of Jared MacKinney in Afghanistan, his insensitive comments re asbestos disease sufferer Bernie Banton, his suggesting that Australia was 'unsettled' before European arrival, and believing Aboriginals living in remote areas 'made a lifestyle choice'.

However, I think the straw that broke the Camel's back was definitely knighting Prince Phillip without so much as a 'what do ya reckon' to his party colleagues.
I still laugh about that little gem even today. Unbelievable.

Dear Suse,

I'm glad that you agree that the puzzle of
Mr Abbott's consistent unpopularity does
cry out for an explanation. As the article
in "The Conversation" points out - "We can
rule out the way he walked and that he ate
a raw onion." (joke).

Part of the problem I feel was that he spread
fear, division, and negativity.
Most people have a desire
for optimism and a positive outlook. In the end
people voted to an end to the nastiness.
Perhaps the current positive attitude of Mr Turnbull
explains his popularity.

Very few voters like division.

http://theconversation.com/why-was-tony-abbott-so-unpopular-52438

Dear Foxy and Suseonline,

I think what you are both getting at is that Tony Abbott as a prime minister was a complete idiot. In other words, you think the man is probably brain dead. You probably even think that the reason that he is brain dead is because he is an alcoholic. You probably even think that the reason for his early morning exercise regimes on bikes, jogging, etc was done in order to sweat out the alcohol from his blood stream. You probably even think that his brain was so continually numb from the alcohol that he couldn't tell the difference in taste between fine chocolate and raw unpeeled onions. I'm absolutely shocked that anyone could think these things of this great man.

Bwaaaah, the Grrls are locked into their Abbottophobia rut. Can't climb out? Need a high reach forklift under the (ahem) rear end?

As if you two haven't devoted heaps of threads and scores of posts to trashing Tony Abbott and to buffing up MT, only to trash Tony Abbott again of course.

All to avoid the elephant in the room, which is the unelectable Willie 'Whatever She Says' Shorten. Y'know, the fellow who should be taking the advice of sly 'Richo', previous ALP numbers man, who says that Shorten cannot get away with not taking firm action against those corrupt union bosses that Labor is in bed with.

Aren't the 'Handbag Hit Squad', the Grrls of Emily's List (of approved favourites), up to mounting a challenge against Shorten? Do they need another boy up front after the Galah'd experiment and failure?

Shorten is a stunned mullet and the election clock is ticking.

Dear onthebeach,

And they probably think Tony Abbott will drink to that as well (as anything else he can have a drink to).

Dear Mr Opinion,

I did not know that Abbott was a drunk.

You two must spend a lot of time together.

otb,

I'm sorry I didn't understand any of your previous
post. Could you explain it in plain English?

Dear Foxy,

I didn't say he was a drunk.

Dear Mr Opinion,

Really? Are you now denying it?

cont'd,

A few of my church group read your post
and they all were just as surprised as me.

I would like to see a more in-depth analysis
of why Abbott los the support of his party.
Some say that MPs from the Cabinet through
to the Backbench were dismayed by the
Government's direction and its capacity to
sell its economic message.

Why is Toni unpopular, that is a tough question. I think we have to start at the beginning his election campaign. I can not believe he was under any direction at all for his entire campaign. It was run like an election for presidency.
He once said he would do anything to become Australia’s PM, we can only say now that we know, his entire election campaign was based on lies to suite the occasion. Without an ounce of truth he steered a nation into believing he was a worthy candidate for election. He gave just enough hints that there was a political party behind him.
The populace went in his favor, soon to discover his imaginary campaign promises were as empty as a drinking vessel. Almost immediately his popularity began to decline. Firstly the Labor swingers dropped their support. When they realized they had bought a pup. With the introduction of Hockeys first budget which could have only been compiled in late night sessions with Abbott over a gallon or two of drinks.
Secondly a wave of Liberal voters began disconnecting from Abbott’s popularity status, until he stated he was not elected to be popular.
His popularity continued to decline, and his backbench started rumbling, and it wasn’t just wind being passed. His stacked royal commission did nothing for his popularity status, neither did his shoot from the hip policies that his party new nothing about. By this time his popularity as PM was 1%, they were the last renegades of the far right Conservative infiltrators into the Liberal party.
Abbott swore blind he could win another election, By now his own party was of the mood to replace him as PM. Subsequently he was voted out and Turnbull was voted in as PM. Abbott was taken by surprise that his party could go against him.
At his being voted out party, an antique marble coffee table was obliterated by someone doing a flying tackle at Abbott, in witch such actions could have come from a mob of louts filled to the brim on alcohol or drugs.

It is unfortunate that a man who has been given
the opportunity to serve his country has
misunderstood and misused his position to his
own detriment. So much more was expected so little
was delivered. And even today he is not a man
reflecting on his failures or looking to change
course. He does not appear to have learned from
his experiences as Prime Minister.

Abbott started by being elected while for years the regressives said he was unelectable. Then he stopped the illegals which every regressive swore could not happen, get rid of the breathing tax which again every regressive swore could not happen and predict accurately what Merkel and the UN's foolish policies would do to Europe you are obviously going to be right off side with media.

Abbott made the mistake of trying to appease the abc propaganda machine instead of getting rid of the total waste of tax payers billions. Having egg all over their faces just brought their bitterness more and more to the forefront.

Abbott was tossed because of polls. Bishop, Morrison and others showed they would put personal interest above the country and support a someone acting like a sleazey backstabber with a smile that the regressives loved. He is the perfect leader for the regressives but will trash the country given an opportunity as Obama has America and Merkel Germany.

Runner just what or who is a 'regressive'? I can only assume it is everyone who disagrees with you? In that case you must be a regressive as well...to me.
As for the stopping of the so-called carbon tax, what has changed? Did we end up getting money back from anyone? No.

Poor old OTB and Runner still crying into their weeties bowl over the loss of Abbott, when blind Freddie should have seen it was inevitable right from the start.

Foxy, it seems that it was Abbott's lack of economic policies that contributed to his demise, but also he was a bit of a dictator. He obviously wasn't a team player and marched to the beat of his own drum most of the time.

Remember when that journalist asked Abbott about his 's##t happens' comment, and there was a stunned, furious-faced silence by our supposedly bright PM for some time?
I was so embarrassed that this guy was our PM...

Obviously Tony Abbott was too smart, too honest, & tried too hard to do what the countries future requires for fools like all those Suse on line to ever understand. He did expect people to actually see what he was trying to do, & think about it & our future. Unfortunately most appear to be too cowardly to face the truth.

She & many others prefer the buckets of slime we get from the KRuds & Turnbulls of this world. They can then feel nice & safe because the slippery slime is cushioning them from the facts.

The fact is that we are playing the end game of western society. How well we play it will determine how well our decendents will do, or if they have their heads removed by ISIS or it's later incarnation.

With idiots like Obama, & Turnbull, trying to buy off these forces with smoothing words, our end is nigh.

Good luck to the appeasers, I hope your running shoes are in good condition. You will need them if we continue as we are.

Dear Hasbeen,

Mr Abbott on being ousted out did say that there
would be no snipping or any undermining, et cetera.
Of course he does not have a conventional
relationship with the truth. And he does have a
small minority of hard core supporters who want to
believe he'll be back.

However, there's no hint in his actions that he is
a man reflecting on his failures or looking to change.
Rather he appears to be doubling down on his
usual tactics of fear-mongering and sloganeering
which is what drove many Australians away in the first
place.

You may see Mr Abbott as Australia's hope for the future.
To many voters however the man was negative, and
extreme, simplistic and misleading even a little
delusional. Full of fear and obsessed with external
threats.

Our greater hope lies with Mr Turnbull.

Abbott was elected to do the adult things that the previous 'leaders' were incapable of doing because they were incapable of admitting they'd been wrong.

Boats, CO2 and mining taxes. There's not point in going over them again but the people could see that the ALP was wrong, Abbott was right and they votd accordingly.

But once Abbott had done what the 'intelligentsia' in the media had said was not possible and implemented these changes he had to move on to the next set of changes the country needed and needs.

Previously, that change was needed was both obvious and cost-free. But after that the changes were less obvious and not always cost-free.

As the China/mining boom grinds to a halt and our lucky run evaporates, those who look to the future see that change is now required. In regard to this there are three types of politicians - those who see the unfolding problems and seek to prepare the nation for them, those who see the problems but seek to delay the solutions in preference to popularity, and those who deny the problems.

Abbott was in the first group. Turnbull is in the second. I think much of the ALP is there also while many are in the third group.

Australians aren't ready to be told that things are dire and previous profligacy needs to be curtailed. They aren't ready to be told that we can't afford our previous profligacy in health services, or Gonski, or that NDIS can't be paid for, or that the current pension system will be unsustainable.

Abbott tried to tell the nation but I doubt even a much better salesman than he, would have been able to get the message through.
The day will come, and quicker than most think, when we see the folly of not taking precautions now and that the Abbotts of this time were prescient.

And when that happens, the politicians will be blamed. But like Greece and IReland and Japan and Brazil, the real cause will be a national determination to live like the good times will never end.

LOL Fox,

Give up the spin. That is straight out of the ALP slime bucket of talk points.

The 'asylum seeker' advocates and NGOs did very well out of Labor and they must be upset that their previous growth industry has faltered with the successful stopping of the boats.

Astroturfing NGOs would be still hounding Abbott out of politics for upsetting their apple cart with the examples from Europe, Germany especially.

So it's everyone to the attack positions, eh Fox?

Abbott isn't even up for election, so this is only smear and bunting to keep attention away from the real man (sort of man) of the moment, Willie 'Whatever She Says' Shorten.

Shorten has not come out of the Union Royal Commission so well himself and is continuing to do all that he knows and does best, protecting grubs like the CFMEU.

In the US, any union bosses that acted like those from the CFMEU, BLF and AWU would very likely have been enjoying 2016 from a gaol cell.

What are you on about Onthebeach?
Who has ever mentioned Bill Shorten but yourself?
Everyone knows Turnbull will wipe the floor with Bill come election time, and there will be no need to trot out his shady past dealings, because he would lose the election even without those problems.

Mhaze, if Abbott was so fabulous, why did his own colleagues see the need to shaft him? It wasn't as though there was an election and the voters threw him out...

If is such a shocker (and he is), why aren't his colleagues in revolt, insisting that he do something about those corrupt unions that the Labor Party is in bed with and Willie Shorten obviously represents?

The reason is that they can't do anything, is because the same unions control Labor, annoint the leader and set policy. That is the policy that matters - which leaves Shorten, Plibersek, Wong and Co dabbling with trivia like homosexual marriage and 'poisonous' carbon dioxide (remember Galah'd?).

BTW, if Galah'd was so convinced about global warming and rising seas, why did she sell her house in a safe area and buy into a $2million 'bungalow' right on the coast?

If the theme of the thread is Unpopular Politicians (and it is) then Ms Galah'd and Shorten must rate high on the list.

First sentence above should be,

"If L'il Willie Shorten is such a shocker (and he is), why aren't his colleagues in revolt, insisting that he do something about those corrupt unions that the Labor Party is in bed with and Willie Shorten obviously represents?"

The rank and file are unimpressed and by Shorten's lack of policies too, but their views are rendered valueless by the casting vote of the factions.

So much for democracy in the 'Progressive' Labor Party. It is all union thuggery and back room deals. Nothing has changed.

Foxy sweetie, you do worry me. I do wish you would accidently sit on those rose coloured glasses you always wear. We really can't afford to look at our crumbling world through such false colouring.

If a lying, conniving, egotistical slime ball like Turnbull is our hope for the future, god help us.

If we are as stupid as the Yanks appear to be, & actually elect him, he will sell us to the investment bankers so quickly your head will spin, if you actually notice through those pretty glasses.

Incidentally, great to have you back, pretty glasses & all. Hope your health continues to improve.

Suse,

" if Abbott was so fabulous, why did his own colleagues see the need to shaft him? It wasn't as though there was an election and the voters threw him out..."

The thread is about why he was unpopular and that's what I was addressing. His unpopularity was the reason he was overthrown - the Liberal Caucus decided they were unlikely to win the next election with him and likely to win with Turnbull. They sought to protect their jobs and were prepared to sell their honour.

I know that you are much more into the superficial believing that having a bad wig is reason enough to disqualify people from high office, but I look to policy. It should be noted that Turnbull gained the votes to get him over the line by promising to retain Abbott's policies so his ouster wasn't due to failed policy.

But Turnbull will never be as dedicated to implementing those policies and will ditch them at the first whiff of a popular backlash. That is why I see us headed into a spiral of economic decline. The Greeks now look back wistfully at their missed opportunities to make a U-turn on their road to ruin and we will also.

Anyway, the main thing is that Tony Abbott is gone and even more importantly he is never coming back. He will definitely go down in the history books as the worst prime minister in Australia and historians will probably argue about why he was such a failure as a political leader. And let's face it, that is probably the only question any historian worth his or her salt is ever like to ask about Tony Abbott. Maybe he could join a monastery and live out the rest of his life as an ascetic monk. Actually he might even like that life when he sees what it has to offer him: no women, plenty of booze, an opportunity to mumble meaningless nothings to himself, etc.). How about we all chip in a couple of bucks to buy him a one-way ticket to a monastery in the Himalayas?

Hi Foxy, in politics there are a few key requirements for leadership longevity, perception, loyalty, survival to name but three. In Abbott's case his perception in the eyes of the public as a "good bloke" had hit rock bottom. Voters didn't like, or trust the man, in the way they warmed to the likes of Bob Hawke or even John Howard at times, every politician from your local mayor to the PM, has to be liked if they wish to continue in office. Loyalty from those around the leader is most important, but it comes at a price, the leader has to be able to both reward and satisfy his underlings that they too are important and not just there to serve the leaders aspirations, a few of the key cabinet members, increasingly seen Abbott as a one man band, and not a very good one at that. Survival, their survival, for the plebs within the party is most important, survival past the next election, The Plebs want a leader who can at least give them a reasonable chance at holding on to their seat, and if possible government as well, Abbott failed to deliver on that score. End result, Phony Tony was "cactus"!
Policy also comes into the equation as well but i'm not sure where it actually fits in, can always adjust that to suit the occasion anyway.

Tony Abbott was so unpopular because of his lies and Broken promises. He was worse than Gillard in every respect.

Dear Hasbeen,

It was Mr Abbott who wanted to give away our
ship-building to Japan. Mr Turnbull wants to
keep it in Australia so I don't agree with
your take on Mr Turnbull selling us overseas.
Mr Turnbull thinks of the nation first.
Mr Abbott thinks of himself and his party.
Therein lies the difference.

My Abbott still hasn't learned his lesson and
it appears that he continues to try to express
his influence. Even John Howard wasn't keen on
Abbott and didn't trust him. Apparently the
man had a reputation even then.

Dear Foxy,

What nation? I keep telling you people that you don't have a nation any more. What you now have is a country composed of different ethnic groups who do not share in a common culture, common history, and common language. Stop living in the Anglo-Australian past. Or as lawyers say: Get over it and get on with your lives. And maybe that was Abbott's problem too: he just could not come to grips with the fact that Anglo-Australia is dead. That would explain why he gave a knighthood to an English duke. The only thing it doesn't seem to explain his why he likes eating raw unpeeled onions.

It is true that Turnbull is 'popular' according to polls; but he is only more 'popular' than the the alternative, Shorten, and that's nothing to be be particularly proud of. Turnbull's 'popularity' stems comes from the Left (and Turnbull is a Leftist) - people who will still vote Labor irrespective of their despair of Shorten. Only 3-5% of voters change parties, and their are two options now for conservative voters who do not like Turnbull and what he did to Abbott. So, Turnbull's 'popularity' has to be severely discounted. As for Abbott, he is out of the picture; but the next election might very well see his resurrection. If Turnbull, as PM carries on the the way he does now, it will be curtains for any Coalition government led by him.

It won't be curtains for the Coalition under
Malcolm Turnbull. The man is not going to
be making changes too quickly and he will
be consultative with his party members.
Unlike his predecessor. Turnbull also has
a good team. And he listens. He wants to put
our nation on the global map. And he will
be very conscious of not making the same
mistakes. H will be able to sell his policies
and programs - because he won't keep things
a secret - people will be informed.
That surely can't be a bad thing.

don't think it matters who is leader of the libs because the mountain they propose to somehow climb is an impossible dream.

While you may say most people approach life in an optimistic way foxy, ones wants and desirers should be achievable otherwise they are simply dreams.

MT says we are in great times to be an Ozzie and we can innovate. How? And with what?

We have the highest wages in our region and we have no money for infrastructure as we cant pay off our debts.

You should also remember the additional mouths we are now feeding and caring for from rudds stuff up and, we have new arrivals who also need to be catered for.

Dear rehctub,

The first step to achieving anything is positive
thought. And Malcolm Turnbull is offering us
positive thought.

Being negative on everything and spreading fear,
creates more negativity and a tendency to
give up instead of trying to overcome or look
for solutions. So let us hope that Malcolm
Turnbull's outlook to the future will be
beneficial to our nation.

Maybe we need China to invade sooner than later.

I've been trying to adopt a policy of not responding to the moron-brigade that lurks herein. Let them make their insane, fact-free ascertains. There's no point trying to give them the facts since facts are the last thing they want to hear.

But this...
this takes the cake.

Foxy "Even John Howard wasn't keen on Abbott and didn't trust him."

Its wrong to say that's wrong. Wrong is when someone says the sun rises in the west. But this from Foxy is pure unadulterated bollocks, taking all the known facts and not only ignoring them but completely reversing them.

Its basically adopting the view that, since I don't like Abbott, anything that I can dream-up must be valid.

I won't try to provide Foxy with any of the myriad examples where (s)he's wrong because (s)he's not interested in that. Suffice to say that this statement from Foxy make Mr O's ravings seem sober and considered.

Fair dinkum.

Don't you just love the compliments mhaze dishes out. You can tell he's a high school graduate.

mhaze,
I agree, just like Foxy's 'facts' to prove Australia is racist.

Just made up rubbish all untrue or irrelevant.

Looks like Foxy is true to form.

Mr Opinion,
Since 1788 Australia has been composed of different ethnic groups who do not share in a common culture, common history, and common language. Get over it! China does not want to invade Australia, and never has.

____________________________________________________________________________________

rehctub,
High wages aren't a barrier to innovation, they're the result of it.

Japan is generally regarded as the most innovative country in our region. They figured out what could be done better, and how to do it better. Then they did it better. We can do likewise.

We have unlimited credit in Australian dollars. Believing the lie that "we have no money for infrastructure as we cant pay off our debts" is one of the barriers to innovation. We should try to kill off the mindset that we're incapable of doing anything that's better value than reducing our debt levels!

New arrivals should be trained to cater for themselves.

Dear Banjo,

They're not "Foxy's facts" but part of our history
much as you like to deny it. History will judge.

We're told that one in five people living in
Australia have experienced racist abuse during
the past year. One in five people living in
Australia was a target of racial discrimination
(around 4.6 million people).

This is an increase from 1 in 8 the previous year.
(Racism in Australia - Together Now).
altogethernow.org.au/racism/

Why focus on TA, when Rudd and Gillard were even less popular at the end of 2013.

The lesson is say what you mean and mean what you say.

' We're told that one in five people living in
Australia have experienced racist abuse during
the past year'

victimhood industry sure growing Foxy although must admit people are racially abused daily by Indigeneous people when they refuse to provide grog money.

"One in five people living in
Australia was a target of racial discrimination"

How do people fall for this type of utter rubbish. Surely their own common-sense should tell them that numbers like this are inherently unbelievable. Yet I guess if you really want it to be true, you'll believe whatever BS is offered up.

So where does the 1 in 5 come from. Well they surveyed 735 ABORIGINAL people. So not 1 in 5 people but 1 in 5 aboriginals. And who did the survey? Other aboriginals in their community who'd been told they were researching discrimination for an anti-racism organisation. And the participants were paid.

Are you getting the feeling this wasn't an arms-length survey?

So what type of discrimination did they find? Well fully half of these poor folk had their property vandalised by persons unknown. By that matrix, I've also been the subject of racial discrimination - I'm sure its because my great-great-great-grandmother was Jewish. No other possible explanation, is there?

Also 85% of these 'victims' were discriminated against by being ignored. Yes, ignored -oh the humanity! So not being discriminated against is evidence of discrimination.

People who produce this type of rubbish are really hoping that there are lots of Foxys out there - people who'll read and uncritically accept the headline figure and not bother themselves with the detail. After all having to check the detail means thinking for yourself and who wants to do that?

runner,
Yep, like the girls at Cronulla were abused when they rejected the Lebs approaches.

Foxy,
Like you claiming the NT Intervention was racist, and that we detain illegal arrivals is racist. Your name in the post nobody elses.

Dear Banjo,

National unity will never be achieved until we
recognise that racism remains a clear and
present danger.

Google "Racism in Australia."

You don't need my name to do that or to look up
newspaper and other articles.

They're not hidden. And as stated earlier - history
will judge.

Foxy

what mean on earth do you mean by ' National unity' Have you seen the divorce rate? If husband and wife can't get along what hope has a nation.

Dear runner,

My husband and I get along beautifully.
So I have every confidence in our nation.
I don't believe we're some kind of exception.

I believe in our country and am proud of it,
despite the mistakes, and the challenges we face.
However, we always seem to get over the
problems and face them squarely. For a country that's
survived this long - I'm sure we shall continue
to do so - simply fixing things as we've always
done so successfully in the past.
I'm optimistic. And I have reason to be considering
basically good my own life has been.
The ethos of my parents was - study hard, work hard,
treat others fairly, take care of yourself.
All of that I've tried to do.

Foxy,
You made the claim, on this site, that Australia was racist and presented your so called facts to prove it.

You could have withdrawn but when asked to show proof you decided to disown the words, claiming they belonged to some other unnamed person. You are still doing that, so why not simply admit you made the 'facts' up or listed a few events you claimed to prove racism, because it sounded sensational.

To date you have been quite deceitful about the posting and I certainly will not forget it. I will raise it whenever I see an opportunity to do so.

Until this incident I considered you nice enough but a bit naive.

He was unpopular because of his persistent blatant lying, starting with lies about Gillard and progressing to lies about his intentions if and when the bogan element blindly voted him into office on the sayso of News Ltd and the shock jocks. That and his embarrassing "captain's picks" and his indifferent "s... happens" on the death of an Australian soldier. Some of the creatures he brought into his Cabinet and placed in the Speaker's chair didn't win him public support either.

another reason Abbott was so unpopular is that he lectured (warned) Merkel of the dire consequences of allowing so many illegal immigrants in the country. They scoffed and we know now of multitudes of girls and women who wished they listened to him.

The far right infiltrators certainly do have worries. I think they are suffering from Abbott’s habit of over indulgent activities. I am not sure why Bill gets a mention he is squeaky clean compared to the remnants of the Abbott front bench.
The Hasbeens of this world , have it bad to think Abbott was conducting his duties as Pm in a good fashion. The man ran his PM; ship like the Sadam husain’s of this world, he didn’t need any extra help. No wonder his own party give him the shaft.
There was nothing that says his way is the only way to go. There is always another route. It comes with a state of mind. We installed Turnbull for you so you should be forever pleased that we put an end to the Abbott treachery.
So be happy life is short, and enjoy the ride.
It is somewhat rich that Abbott would ever mention the dangers of a overload of Co2, he said climate change was crap. That is how far behind the rest of the world he was

Foxy.......The first step to achieving anything is positive
thought. And Malcolm Turnbull is offering us
positive thought.

Positive thoughts are very easy when you have millions in the bank, a well paid job, and a 'set for life' pension courtesy of the tax payer Foxy.

Malcom Turnbul is not looking to innovate, rather, he is trying to encourage others to do the heavy lifting. All I am simply asking is How?

We have huge wages and over generous working conditions and we have an IR system that does not have the flexibility to allow businesses to up-skill. Example being.

If a business innovates into another field, and their current workforce, or some/most of them don't have the required skill sets, then the employer cant replace the workforce with higher skilled workers without being penalized.

Lets face it, we are not looking to back yard or small employers for innovation, we are looking for large, well funded companies to pull us out of the proverbial. Of cause many a great idea has come from the back yard shed, but that's only an idea. It takes millions, if not billions to actually turn this idea into a huge job creating machine and those who we look to for the innovation have their hands tied.

Even if the IR laws were to change, labor will simply change them back when the libs loose an election so the big boys have no confidence to invest billions on innovation.

As I've said, unless there are serious changes, its simply a dream

Dear Banjo,

I've told you many times in the past that
the facts are part of this country's history.
It isn't something that I have made up.
There are many reports written on the subject
of "Racism in Australia," many articles,
newspapers ones, and so on.

One in particular
that I found useful was "Mapping Social Cohesion," A
Report authored by Monash University's Professor
Andrew Markus for the Scanlon Foundation. It revealed
that racism remains a problem in Australia

We should all be thankful that Malcolm put an end to Abbott's 'Reign Of Terror'. In his short time in office, only a few weeks, Malcolm has got the place going gang busters! Only yesterday the stock exchange threw out a lazy $100 billion, which I am sure went to the most needy, most deserving, and not the greedy buggers in society. Well done Malcolm. You should all realise, and be thankful, it was Malcolm's doing that allowed you the day off for Christmas, again well done Malcolm.
I propose we declare October 24th Malcolm Day, a public holiday of course, and on that day we can celebrate all things Malcolm, a day of festival and sports, with pie eating contests and jelly wrestling as we all sing the new national anthem 'We Love You Malcolm' based on that Australian classic pop anthem 'Love Me Do'. by our very own iconic band 'The Beatles', for those that don't know the words yet, you can just hum along. Do I have a seconder?

Foxy,
I am not interested in what some academic said, I am interested in what you said and your inability to show anything racist with your 'facts'

This is what you posted
"People who are in denial about racism in this country are simply ignorant. Lets look at the facts - we imprison
brown asylum seekers, we once celebrated our national day
with a white racist riot. There were assaults on Indian
students, a little political organisation called
One Nation, and of course "the intervention" - the heraldic
beak on our long hawkish treatment of Indigenous Australians".
Foxy, OLO Friday 18-4-2014 12.18.35

Pity you do not have enough character to admit you stated that, and that it is wrong. A deliberate attempt to disparage Australia by deceit.

Dear Banjo,

Start your own discussion on "Racism
in Australia." You would find it
quite beneficial. There is plenty of
material on the web.

It sounds to me like you really need
to vent your spleen.

Dear Paul,

I really can't see any other alternative
to Malcolm Turnbull as Prime Minister
of this nation. I'm not impressed with the
Labor Party or the Opposition Leader.
There's no one else currently available
vying for the job excep fort Mr Turnbull.

Unless things will change drastically, I
cannot see anyone else standing for the
position who would have a chance at the job of PM
apart from Malcolm Turnbull.

Hi Foxy, I think there is "talent" in the Labor Party and I favor Penny Wong, although she is in the Senate, but a move to the lower house could be accommodated. I like her way of speaking, forthright, and has a good grasp of the issues. I can hear the howls of indignation about Penny from the rabid right on the forum already. To be frank, she is female and of Asian extract, among other things, which would count against her. The Liberal Party outside of Turnbull has no real talent at all.
Your comment about Australians being racists; yes and no, I sometimes feel many people are prejudice more than raciest, there is a fine line of difference. I'm talking here and now, in the past I would totally agree with you, Australians were racists, I grew up in those times, and in a matter of fact way by today's standards Australians were extremely racists, it was institutionalised within society and I can recount a lot of personal and general experience of that, "black" people were inferior, that was an accepted norm of European society in thoses days! Today people have fears and suspicions of those they don't understand, they see black people and others as being different, and accept the negative stereotyping that the media labels these groups with, like all young Lebanese men are gang members, hoons and drug dealers. Prejudism is not only restricted to "white" people, it cuts across all stratums of society, "black" people can be prejudice too.

Not long back I was labeled raciest by a Canadian for using the term Eskimo and not Inuit, I did not apologies as I did not see the word Eskimo in an Australian context as being raciest, some Canadians do, and I told him so. I often have a go at my partner when she calls me "Pakeha", I tell her it is a raciest term, she said its not, and she is right, but i don't tell her that.

Dear Paul,

I don't believe that a woman has much of a chance
in being elected as PM in this country. Not even if
its Penny Wong or Tanya Plibersek. Now Julie Bishop
may be another story. I would list her as a
contender sometime in the future. Though just not
yet.

I see you're not keen to respond there Foxy. I would be most interested in just how you think Malcom Turnbul should approach the next term as there appears little doubt he will loose office.

Remember, innovation is just a word until something is actually achieved.

The single thing that Australians are most grateful to Tony Abbott is for exposing and getting rid of the unmitigated train wreck that was the Labor/Green government. They were also grateful for fixing Labor's border control cock up.

The reason they hated Juliar was because she lied about the carbon tax and broke every other election promise as well.

Dear rehctub,

You're absolutely right - innovation is a
word that most people don't want to understand.
However, let us wait and see what the future
will bring.

Dear Shadow Minister,

These are different times - and there's no
point in harking back to the "good old days,"
of my Abbott. The Party made a decision and
we now have a new Prime Minster. As for the
future? It's anyone's guess.

Foxy,

This entire thread is digging up left whingers' hatred of Abbott after destroying labor. Juliar and Dudd are fair game.

When going down memory lane it is always useful to have evidence lest the past be re-written,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0MHRSFz6FM

Dear Shadow Minister,

It seems to me that you're not doing a bad job yourself
with our former female and other Labor Prime Ministers
yourself.

Mr Abbott after all also got tossed out by his own party
after all. And John Howard got tossed out of his own
electorate. I wonder if Mr Abbott will get re-elected?
In his electorate? What are the odds?

It's not a question of hatred as far as Mr Abbott is
concerned. It's a question of trust and competence - neither
qualities Mr Abbott has.

Foxy, I'm sorry to say I have to question the judgement of anyone who can apply "trust and competence" in their description of Turnbull.

He has amply demonstrated he is completely untrustworthy, & his light bulb banning catastrophe has demonstrated his complete stupidity when it comes to understanding things scientific. Hell I think he actually believes the CO2 scam, rather than just uses it to buy green kudos.

As for your suggestions for lady PM, all three have totally demonstrated their complete lack of understanding anything scientific, & Bishop is a good mate for Turnbull & Gillard, if there is any stabbing to be done in anyone's back.

Dear Hasbeen,

We'll all have a chance to vote in this upcoming
election with issues that some of us may feel
strongly about. Issues like climate change, gay
marriage, making Australia a Republic, and do on.

It's all a matter of the type of society we want
to live in, in this country. I want to give
Mr Turnbull a chance as Prime Minister. He
certainly can do any worse than the previous ones
we've had. Hopefully he shall do better.
I seem to recall your admiration for Julie Bishop
some time ago. Now all of a sudden you don't sound
too impressed with her. What happened?

Yes Foxy Julie Bishop had done a great job of hiding her mean & nasty streak, which we now know is about a mile wide.

Add to that her obvious incompetence at understanding things scientific, & she is a dead loss. That she has not kept up to date with what other countries are doing to repair the damage done to their economies, & money wasted on their energy policies dams her as any sort of leader, or even a good follower.

Dear Hasbeen,

I guess we'll have to disagree once again.

Julie Bishop to me is a very good Foreign
Affairs MP and an excellent Deputy PM.
She's been a loyal member of the Liberal
Party and did her utmost to support her
Prime Minister. However the man would not
listen to any advice - then it was too late.
Unfortunately for him.

Foxy,

I am not the one that complained.

As for trust or competence, by any measure Tony was better than either Dudd or Juliar, achieving more in 2 years than both of them achieved in 6.

Dear Shadow Minister,

What exactly did Mr Abbott achieve that made
this nation any better in his entire time in
office?

I would echo Foxy's question what did Mr Abbott actually achieve for the people of Australia? What he tried to achieve (and partially managed) was a massive shift of wealth from those who didn't have it to those who did, and from those who had personally created it to those who had personally merely acquired it - i.e. from them lifters to the leaners.

For those who sneer at Mr Turnbull, how about some actual detail of what, concretely, as leader he has done which they reckon he ought not to have done and left undone which they reckon he ought to have done?

As for Mr Rudd, what he did which he ought to have done was, alone among Western leaders, steer the calamity of the 2008 Global Financial Heist away from our country. What Ms Gillard did which she ought to have done (and nobody else could do) was create a government from those the voters had elected in 2010 and keep it functioning for the best part of a full term.

I suppose that we could find fault with each and every
politician if we looked closely enough.

Mr Abbott was famous for his repeal the "carbon tax."
But what did that actually achieve. Our total power
and gas bills did not fall as promised. For a start
the carbon tax is not the main reason for big power bills.
There are costs of the network for poles and wires.

As for stopping the boats? That too is not a record to
be proud of. The following link explains:

http://www.theage.com.au/comment/the-age-letters/heed-20150915-gjn4cs.html

The blatantly obvious of course,

Stopping the human trafficking that Labor and the greens started, rebuilt the live cattle trade that Labor stuffed up, and finalized 4 free trade agreements that improved Australia's trade and world status.

What did Dudd or Juliar achieve? other than human trafficking and debt?

cont'd ...

At least Mr Abbott was removed before he did any
serious damage to our nation.
Look at the damage he caused in Parliament with his
negativity. It could have been much worse.

Foxy,

It is a pity that Juliar wasn't removed before she did serious harm to Australia. One can only remember the bodies littering the seas, the debt and the destructive carbon tax lie.

Fox,

You have no hope at all of 'getting things into perspective' where you habitually do as you have done before.

You were obsessed with Tony Abbott even before he won the PM gig. You are not satisfied that he has suffered enough of a penalty in losing it. You will never be satisfied until he is silenced.

That is not healthy at all and so much for free speech, eh?

What excites you about MT is that he has recently dipped into the bucket of taxpayers' $$ to give millions to the NGOs and the multicultural industry that have been fattening leeches on the taxpayer since that fool Whitlam.

Tony Abbott stopped the boats. However in doing so he affected the NGOs, public service empires and lawyers who had grown fat sucking millions annually from the taxpayers. The gravy train ground almost to a halt, shucks.

otb,

The Liberal Party was the one who decided Mr Abbott's
fate. It had nothing to do with me. He was ousted by
his own pittard and has no one else to blame but
himself. As you say - aw shucks! I would feel sorry
for the man, except he had so many chances and he blew
them all.

The forums 'Crusty Conservatives' and you know who you are, continue to cry in their beer over the demise of 'Fearless Leader'. Fella's get over it, Phony Tony's gone and forgotten, he ain't comm'n back. No matter how much you guys laments the loss of your hero, he is now like your other pin up boy, Little Johnny Howard, ancient history. The Australian political landscape is littered with failed conservative leaders, Pig Iron Bob, Billy 'Big Ears' McMahon, Bill 'Pants Down' Snedden, the list goes on and on, they are to numerous to count, Abbott is just one of many.

Get rid of the Conservative faction in Liberal politics.

Here's a bit of fantasy that I got inspired
by Tony Lavin's piece of fiction:

"Hail to the Abbotites."
The followers of the One True Abbot.
His negative doctrine and His rejection
of social equity binds all the Abbotites together.
It is believed that the One True Abbot shall
rise and bring salvation to the masses. Therefore
let them stand firm and ensure that in future the
wisdom of the few shall set a fixed term in the
rule of this nation as other believers have
seen fit to enable in distant lands like the USA.

Had this been done in the past the One True Abbot
would still rule this day, and social equity, and fear
would reign.

So end this fable.

So Turnbull has announced that he will be attending the Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras. He had to make a big deal of it, not just go quietly like anyone else. Why? Is he actually a latent homo, or does he think he will buy more votes by doing so among poofters, than he will loose from the straight folk?

Rudd used to make me feel sick to my stomach, but Turnbull actually makes my skin crawl.

That people in an advanced western nation can be really thinking of voting for this bit of trash, indicates how close to collapse we really are.

Dear Hasbeen,

So you think Mr Turnbull is a piece of trash
because he may support same-sex marriage?

Mr Turnbull as our Prime Minster may just be
supporting equity for all of this nation's
citizens, including the right to marry a
consenting adult. After all, there is supposed
to be a separation between Church and State.
Mr Turnbull is also supposed to be pro a
plebiscite - let the voters decide as to what
kind of society they want to live in and vote on the
issue.

What could be fairer than that?

Hasbeen, sorry to hear you are suffering from a bad case of the agues, skin creep and upset tummy. Shame that, all I can recommend is you get out some back copies of 'The Catholic Weekly' and read those old crusty hits by Archy Pell. slamming those 'poofter' you so despise, make you feel better. A reminder its the time of the year to get a new calendar, yep its 2016 not 1966, Rip Van Winkle its time to wake up.

Yep exactly sums up why the regressives hated Abbott. He did volunteer life saving and served the Indigeneous each year while Turnbull promotes disease and destruction.

Dear runner,

Are you talking about the same Mr Abbott who
stated that living in the outback for the
Indigenous People was a "Lifestyle Choice?"
The same Mr Abbott who asked to be paid for his
"charity work," including his "bike rides,"
and the same Mr Abbott who
used his activities as photo - opportunities?
Including those involving onions.
See what a tough man that guy was.
For sure there's no comparison.
He's one tough guy

' Are you talking about the same Mr Abbott who
stated that living in the outback for the
Indigenous People was a "Lifestyle Choice?"'

that's right Foxy and he was right in saying so. I suspect the time spent helping the Indigeneous gave him far more insight than his haters like you.

I think the question the left whingers should be asking themselves, is that if Abbott was that unpopular, why was he more popular than Juliar or Dudd?

If Abbott was bad then they must have been really terrible.

Dear runner,

Mr Abbott's Indigenous advisers were the ones
who told him that his "Lifestyle Choices" comments
concerning the Indigenous remote communities were
disrespectful and simplistic. It also is not
hatred when voters in a democracy criticise a PM's
policies or actions. The is their right.

Dear SM,

History will judge all of our former PM's.
I suspect history will not be as kind to Mr Abbott
as you think. He had plenty of opportunities to
correct his behaviour. He chose not to do it.
Also his own party ousted him - including his own
Deputy - which speaks volumes.

Shadow Minister, exactly when was Abbott more popular than Rudd and Gillard were at one stage? Never!
I well remember the jubilation when Rudd and Gillard were first Prime Ministers. There was very little joy except from you, Runner and Hasbeen, when the holy Abbott took charge.

He was only popular in his own imagination.

The Liberals were more popular than Labor was during Abbott's time, but that was never due to Abbott and had more to do with how unpopular Labor was (is)...

We might also ask - where to next for Mr Abbott?

In all fairness whatever path Mr Abbott decides
to take after the next election, and I'm taking
it for granted that the Liberals will win the
election, Mr Abbott's path should be signposted
with the dignity worthy of a former national
leader. He may decide to stay on as a backbencher
in Parliament, although that will be highly
unlikely. He has held the NSW seat of Warringah
since 1994. He may just be ready for something else.

One possibility is high level business consultation and
lobbying. Another is an appointment to various boards or
a diplomatic posting.

Shadow,me olde salt, I always try and let you down easy, but when are you going to admit The mad Monk was the most unpopular PM since Stanley Bruce wore spats and a straw hat.
Is there any truth to the rumor that not only is Malcolm going to 'The Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras' he is going to be atop the lead float. Following the parade Malcolm is going to dress up as the Indian and lead the boys in a rendition of 'In The Navy'.

Sneak preview;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InBXu-iY7cw

Suze,

You seem to suffer from amnesia, in Sept 13 Juliar had hit absolute rock bottom and was digging, Krudd tried to rescue Labor, but shortly after abusing a makeup artist was as popular as the clap.

Paul,
We will leave the Mardi Gras mincing to Brown eye Bob and the effete men of the greens. The dykes on bikes will be headed up by Disease Rhiannon and Syph Hanson Young.

Hi there Shadow, unfortunately in all good conscience we Greens cannot support "Dykes on Bikes" not because they are dykes, and not because they are on bikes. Its them there Harley Davidson motorcycles, not exactly environmentally friendly machines are they. No if it was "Dykes on Bicycles" that would be a different john dory, or if those bikes were wind powered. About the "Village People" got most of the spots covered, Malcolm's agreed to do the 'Indian', however a problem with covering the 'Construction Worker' I do believe you have an engineering background. Are you free come 5th March?

Paul,

I imagine that Adam Bent will be pedaling furiously behind the dykes on bikes in the bike below, with Dinner tally in the dolly chair.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Child-bike-MOLLY-14-inches-Pink-with-doll-girl-little-girl-NEW-bike-/351629479587?hash=item51dec00ea3:m:mbAHogA-zvGwAH9tcrp8Unw

I doubt any greenie could genuinely fill the construction worker role you describe, as none meet the criteria for worker, However, I expect many greenies to turn up in latex construction costumes. Paul, I guess that you will be there.

I have no concerns about Tone's future employment, after the next election. A man of his undoubted talents will be in "hot" demand by prospective employers the world over. A short list of possible employment opportunities, some I'm sure Tone has already considered. egg timer, odor sniffer, mattress stuffier, ear cleaner and the pièce de resistance, posterior wiper, Although I do believe Kevin Dudd has that last job in mind should he fail to become leader of the free world and assistant manager of the universe!
Shadow, before you say it, Bob applied for all those jobs, but failed the intro test, not his fault, couldn't get the top of the pen to fill out the answer sheet. Cockey Joe failed also, couldn't add up, and the best they could offer him, was some second rate job in Washington! As the Auusie representative on the ground, doing the last job on President Donald. If Donald Trump was the son of Ronald McDonald, then he would be Donald McDonald, now that's a name even I could vote for.

Paul,

If you consider Ambassador to the US a second rate job, I seriously doubt that any Green MP would qualify for the job of bottom wiper.

I reckon that as there isn't one green who has academic qualifications of TA that your vile blathering is just jealousy. Sleeze Rhiannon, Christine Minge and other political dinosaurs, will simply slip into obscurity.

Dear Shadow Minister,

The Green's leader can certainly give Mr
Abbott's qualifications a run for their money.

He has from Monash University - Bachelor of Medicine,
Bachelor of Surgery. A master of Public Health and a
Master of Health Science from La Trobe University.
He was a practising General Practitioner and a Public
Health Specialist. He worked in Aboriginal Health in
the Northern Territory, HIV prevention in India and in
the drug and alcohol sector. His qualifications are
not too shabby at all. More conducive to public service
than many others.

Foxy,

So Dinner Tally was GP, and certainly the smartest of the greens, but still a distant second to Abbott with a Law degree with economics from Sydney that requires a 99 + ATAR to get in, then does so well that he get a Rhodes scholarship and completes a MA in political science at Oxford.

Shadow, you can give Abbott all the BA's DA's and CA's you like, but he came last in the common sense department and his people skills were a big fat zero, so his own party gave him the PO award!

As for Cocky Joe Hockey, a very mediocre politician, is ever there was one. He is undeserving of the Ambassadorship to Washington and if judged on merit, he wouldn't get the Ambassadorship to Timbuktu. Cronieism, and jobs for the boys, the Liberal Party is famous for it!

Paul1405,

You are a scream.

Here are the Oz Greens in action proposing a One World Government. -Where the 'one vote, one value' would ensure that populous nations like India and China would completely overwhelm countries like Australia. In effect, Australia would have no say at all in its future and with predictable results.

If they had their way, the Greens would sell out Australia and for zilch.

Beach, your opinion, and if the kind of people holding the same extreme right wings views as you were in power there would be no voting at all, dictator for life. The Greens is a democratic party, unlike some.

Paul,

Considering that most Greens MPs are a collection of intellectual lightweights and whack jobs, you are throwing stones from a glass house.

Given that TA may not have mastered the labor art of spin and eloquently saying nothing (Christine whinge was hopeless too), what he did achieve firstly as opposition leader was to bring the coalition into power, and trash labor's reputation by exposing Labor's cock ups for what they were. I seriously doubt that his political career is over.

Next he began fixing as many of these cock ups as possible, and put in place Free trade agreements and begin to fix the budget which is never popular.

TA still has a large amount of support in the Liberal party, and amongst voters that like hate the PC waffle that dominates politics today and appreciate straight talk. For example his speech in the UK pissed off every left whinger in the UK, but given the disaster in Germany and EU, he is being taken far more seriously.

Dear Shadow Minister,

Nobody is taking Mr Abbott seriously.
He's in the same catgory as Donald Trump.
The only people taking them seriously are
their hard-core supporters, and they're in
the minority. Mr Abbott was ousted by his own
party. People got tired of his spin, three word
slogans, secrecy, being held for mugs, and
broken promises.
He's not coming back!

Shadow, coming from a supporter of a party that once put Pauline Hanson up for election. Look at some of the "talent" on the government benches Bronwyn Bishop, Cory Bernardi, Bill Heffernan etc. Then there is your country cousins politics very own Dad and Dave, Warren Truss and Barnaby Joyce. LOL.

You say you are an engineer, TA always stood for 'Tradesman's Assistant' the often not too bright, dumbo, who was only good for doing the unskilled hack work. TA that's you man Tony Abbott.

Foxy,

You are deluding yourself if you believe that no one takes TA seriously. While I never tried to suggest that TA was coming back as PM, it is clear that he has significant and deep rooted support within the coalition caucus and party. And now that TA is a back bencher, he is free to express his opinions and use his influence to keep the liberal party on the straight and narrow and prevent MT from going rogue as he did in 2009.

Paul,

Coming from a party that is left whinge version of One Nation, you are hardly in any position to criticise, especially with fringe dwellers like Soviet Rhiannon and the pinhead Hansen Young, or even the Greens candidate for Matraville Karel Solomon.

Then trying to link Abbott to a trade assistant on the basis of initials is feeble even for you.

Dear Shadow Minister,

You are the one deluding yourself.
The extreme conservatives did not succeed
in keeping Mr Abbott as leader of the party
or as Prime Minnister. He simply did not have
the mubers to support him which ever way you
slice it. He just does not have the numbers
required. Simple as that. He came up short!

Foxy,

Please read what I write before you write such nonsense. For the 3rd time I have never claimed he will reclaim the position of PM. Rather that he still exercises influence in the Liberal party amongst the conservative members, who may be in the minority, but have influence such as the ultra left whinge portion of the labor party from whence Juliar emerged.

Dear SM,

Keep your hair on. Of course Mr Abbott still exercises
influence on his hardcore supporters the point that
I've been making - and here's where your delusion
comes in is that - it's not enough - it's not large
enough to make any sort of impact where it counts.
He simply does not have the party support that's needed.
Simple as that.

It is crucial for the victim industries that were spawned by Whitlam and have sucked mightily from the taxpayer's udder ever since, to bury Tony Abbott.

Tony Abbott represents the reflective, reasonable challenge to assumed victimhood and eternal entitlement, and questions that need to be asked and answered. For example, what outcomes are there from the millions of taxpayers' money being poured into aboriginal housing? Where are the actual occupied houses and if they are not habitable, why not?

Another, what processes enable NGOs, consultants and various other fleas including public bureaucrats to be taking so many cookie-cutter mouthfuls out of allocated moneys that precious little ever reaches the intended recipients?
The greedy excesses of the lawyers and other professionals who made hay out of people trafficking were costing upwards of a $billion annually under the Labor governments of Rudd and Gillard with her treacherous Greens sidekicks.

There is not enough money to keep that gravy train running.

Shadow, as a disciple of the 'Anointed One' the bloke with the priestly experience, I can understand how you might believe in reincarnation and hope and pray that the Mad Monk will one day rise up and make a second coming. Do you believe he will come through Sydney Heads aboard a fiery chariot or something? Do you and the other hard core believers gather every morning on Middle Head and pray for the divine ones return?
You need a reality check, Tony Abbott is ancient history! Abbott was truly the biggest failure as Prime Minister since Billy NcMahon in 1972.

Beach where are the hundreds of millions Abbott poured down the throats of the greedy multi nationals that were once the Australian car industry, safely in the banks of Tokyo and Detroit. What about the millions Abbott wasted on advertising trying to convince voters he was doing a good job?

Paul1405,

You are making things up and trying to re-write history.

It was Greens Adam Bandt who demanded that the federal government commit and spend $900,000 million on the car makers despite the fact that they had already announced they were closing down operations.

Labor also demanded more money be gifted after bad, THEIR bad.

Intransigent unions helped to make car manufacturing uneconomic.

BTW, when will the Greens and their on again and off again mates, Labor and L'il Willie Shorten, put some distance between themselves and the CFMEU?

Foxy,

Most political commentators would disagree with you, even those in the left whinge Fairfax and ABC.

Otb,

Paul has delusions of relevance, I'm not his flaccid attempts at trolling with outlandish claims are trying to convince us that he is competent at writing prose, or that he has obtained some recreational herbs

Beach, Adam Bandt the one and only Greens member in the lower house, demands the government spend $900m and lone behold they jump to it, don't make me laugh. Bob Katter and Clive Palmer take note, if you want to save Big Clive's nickel refinery just demand the Turnbull Government shell out the millions required.

BTW Beach, Big Clive has no money to pay worker entitlements or clean up the site, he will leave all that to the taxpayer. However his nickel joint could pour millions into Big Clive's political party. Makes anything to do with the CFMEU look like school boy stuff.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-01-20/clive-palmer-queensland-nickel-refinery-yabulu-clean-up-bill/7100932

Dear Shadow Minister,

Commentators like Andrew Bolt and shock jocks
like Alan Jones - yes.

However commentators whose IQ's are larger than their dhoe
size - its a different story.

Still, you believe who you want.

I have my preferences.

From SMH - James Massola, Judith Ireland. Obviously you think that they are idiots.

"Despite that denial - and much like former prime minister Kevin Rudd, who spent years agitating from the backbench before finally tearing down Julia Gillard - Mr Abbott does have a core group of conservative supporters and allies in the Liberal party room."

"Mr Abbott's supporters include former defence minister Kevin Andrews, former industrial relations minister Eric Abetz and a group of MPs who meet for regular lunches."

"Supporters and allies of Mr Abbott in Parliament are keen for the former prime minister to remain in politics, believing he has a significant contribution still to make"

Paul

Adam Bent squarked on RN and the government did nothing. The greens blocked the reduction of the $900m bill, so simply only $100m will be spent and the account closed.

Dear SM,

No I don't think that James Massola and Judith Ireland are
idiots. They're merely confirming what I've been saying
all along but you're not listening.
Mr Abbott does have a core group of conservative supporters
in the Liberal Party Room. However how much influence do
people like Kevin Andrews and Eric Abetz really wield?
They did not manage to save Mr Abbott from being ousted
did they?

Also the Daily Telegraph amongst others have stated that
former PM John Howard and Cabinet Secretary Arthur
Sinodinos told Tony Abbott to pull his head in and stop
criticising the Turnbull Government.

Interesting times ahead.

Beach and Shadow.

You conserves need to compare notes before you post. Beach said "It was Greens Adam Bandt who demanded that the federal government commit and spend $900,000 million (900 thousand million, that reads as $900 billion) on the car makers "
Then Shadow said " The greens blocked the reduction of the $900m bill, so simply only $100m will be spent and the account closed." So do we have a lazy $800 million, or is that $820,000 million, floating around, thanks to the Greens. Who is your accountant Cocky Joe Hockey?

Hi Foxy, Abbott was given the kiss of death, when the Yankee media baron Rupert Murdoch demand he sack Credlin, and failed to do so. In the Liberal Party you do not defy Murdoch and expect to survive. When Murdoch speaks, and he speaks for the Liberal Party controllers in big business, conservative politicians in Australia jump.

Foxy,

Again please read what I write before posting nonsense.

TA does not have enough support to return to the leadership, but has enough support from MPs and party members to have influence.

Perhaps you can find a political commentator that says different?

Paul,

Considering that it was Adam Bent that wanted to spend the lot, your maths is off. Maybe you got light fingered Rhiannon to do the calcs.

Dear Paul,

I have to admit that I did admire Tony Abbott
for standing up to Murdoch for his Chief of Staff,
Peta Credlin and also despite the pressure at the
time - for standing up for Bronwyn Bishop. Too bad
that she didn't return the favour to him.

Dear Shadow Minister,

Of course Tony Abbott has an influence on his group
of hard-core supporters. No one is questioning that.

Foxy,

FYI definition of a power broker is:

a person who deliberately affects the distribution of political or economic power by exerting influence or by intrigue.

For example, the greens do not have enough senators to control the senate, but have enough to influence policy.

Dear Shadow Minister,

He does not have the numbers (yet) to have much
of an impact in the Liberal Party - hence the
successful ousting. Malcolm Turnbull beat him
hands down. What the future holds - whether the
numbers will increase we'll have to wait and see.

It was the forward thinking progressive people in the Labor Party, people like Ben Chiffley and Doc Evatt, who after WWII had a vision for Australia. These people believed in Australia and its people. They believed Australians deserved their place in a modern world. Their vision seen the nation establish it very own car industry, undertake monumental projects like the Snowy Mountains Scheme and provide a better life not only for the native born, but also for ten's of thousands of reffo's from a war torn Europe who, through hard work and grit, made a new life for themselves and their families in a foreign land far from their place of birth. Despite the negativity of the conservatives in society, with their howls of indignation, cries of "It can't be don't" Australians with socialists determination achieved great things post war. All was not perfect, particularly for our indigenous people who deserved better, but in the main things were better for the majority, thanks to people with the foresight in the Labor Party.

Still today we have the conservative knockers who denigrate the hard working Australian. calling them lazy and over paid. When it comes to the car industry ,Beach knocks the worker with his union bashing, but makes no comment on the decision making parasites in the board rooms of Tokyo or Detroit.

Paul1405,

What you are admitting (boasting?) is that Greens and Labor value the political donations from their mates the CFMEU so much that they are prepared to ignore the self-incriminating admissions made in the Unions Royal Commission and before Courts.

I was under the assumption that all political
parties valued donations. The Liberals track
record is not squeaky clean either. Ask
Mr Sinodinos, or Philip Ruddock.

Hopefully the Royal Commission will sort things
out. Corruption is not good for any political
party - and there's enough of it around to chase
after - without finger pointing at just one or two.

Beach, nothing to say about the grit and determination of your fellow Australians both old and new. All you can do is have a shot by attacking their unions. Given the chance you would reward the hard work of Australian with coolie wages and conditions (not to apply to yourself of course!).

Another attack from Mr Moderate to attack The Greens and Labor, using the findings of Abbott's man and his kangaroo court. Where justified I agree union corruption has to be dealt with through the courts to the full extent of the law. For years (you can check my history on this forum) I have derided the grubs in the HSU for what they done to lowly paid, hard working members. What motivates the crocodile tears from those of the rabid right, is not a genuine concern for workers, just the opposite in fact, they see this as an opportunity to strip works of their rights and weaken them in the work place.

Beach, maybe you would like to comment on Clive Palmer and the $60m gone from Queensland Nickel, now claiming it can't pay worker entitlements and the taxpayer should foot the bill. $21m went directly into Big Clive's Palmer United Party! I do believe you have previously expressed support for Palmer and his political party. Are you still singing the same song?

Foxy,

Your opinion is at odds with pretty much every political commentator.

Paul,

The car industry was an exercise in socialist indulgence. Building an industry that cannot compete without huge trade barriers and protections and huge direct or indirect taxpayer subsidies was an economic cock up of monumental proportions. It meant that for decades Australians paid a huge premium for cars driving up the cost of living and production, and needing vast subsidies. As trade tariffs dropped it became unpalatable to pump $bns of tax dollars into this dinosaur, and under Dudd/Juliar the car sales dropped by 75% and by 2013 was all but dead.

As for donations, both the greens and labor parties get the vast majority of donations from the laundered dirty money from corrupt unions that represent a tiny fraction of workers. The greens have abandoned any semblance of independence to wallow in the trough of dirty money from union racketeering.

The price for this is for the Labor/green alliance to act as the union's mouthpiece in parliament. The union bosses hands are so far up the backsides of Shorten and Dinner Tally that their performance in parliament is directly controlled by the CFMEU, like ventriloquists' dummies.

Dear Shadow Minister.

You would say that Sir.

And Mr Abbott is still our Prime Minister
loved by all.
Yeah, right!

Shadow, we have had this out before, the huge amount of illegal corrupt money flowing into the NSW Liberal Party from developers. what was it, the gang of 12. No wonder under the state Liberal Government of Bugsy Baird NSW has become a (over) developers paradise.
For illegal deals the NSW Liberals are up there with one of your past heroes Queensland's Joh Bjelke Petersen!

Foxy,

You still have no clue as to how the game is played do you?

Paul,

The vast river of illegal corrupt money flowing into the Greens dwarfs that came into the libs, and what is worse is that it is still coming. The greens are bought and paid for by the criminal unions such as the CFMEU. Not to mention SHY having to pay back nearly $9000 for illegal claims, etc.

Dear Shadow Minister,

Could be that to me it's not a game.

I take it seriously. I got it from my father.

My father deeply believed in the Liberal Party.
He believed in individual rights and individual
liberty. He believed in just reward for hard work and effort.
He believed in the importance of private property and in
protecting it from punishing taxation.
He also believed that all people should be equally subject to
the law - including powerful corporations and powerful
unions. He was also very anti communism. Not only did he
see communism as a very repressive system - but as an
economic failure as well.

Dear Shadow Minister,

Unfortunately Tony Abbott also thinks its all
a game. However it seems its one he's not very
good at - certainly not recently.

Shadow, your only response to the truth about corruption in the NSW Liberal Party is to invent lies about The Greens. You say "The vast river of illegal corrupt money flowing into the Greens" A lie, no less. Point to one cent of illegal money donated to The Greens. Illegal developer donations to the NSW Liberals has been well documented. Where is the gang of 12 these days? Fiddling the books down at party HQ.

Paul1405,

You keep avoiding the question.

When will Greens leadership, Richard Di Natale, Scott Ludlam and Larissa Waters aka 'Nancy Reagan' as in 'The lights are on but there is no-one at home', be taking action to sever the Greens mateship arrangement with the discredited CFMEU?

Beach, the CFMEU has about 140,000 members nationally, the vast majorly of whom are hard working Australians, yes more of those people you detest. This vast majority are deserving of our support as their aims and ambitions are akin to the aims and ambitions of The Greens, a fairer and better Australia, something else you don't support.
Even Abbott's man with his kangaroo court failed to turn up all that much that is wrong in the union, despite spending $80m of taxpayer money. A few bad apples, that's all, you should be able to buy a lot of apples with $89m.

Now haw about you fellas comment on the Big Clive Palmer rip off?

Foxy,

I'm sorry that I assumed that you had an adequate grasp of the English language and understood what the phrase "playing the game" meant.

If politics was a game Abbott thrashed Juliar and Dudd. Bringing down two sitting PMs and winning an election as PM puts TA in a very select group. I am also amused at how left whingers think that they have a clue as to how the liberal party works.

Turnbull was chosen as the face of the libs because he is more acceptable to the left, and will guarantee a coalition government for at least 3-6 more years, but has learnt his lesson that he needs the support of caucus to stay in power.

Abbott has a lot of support in the liberal party, maybe not for the position of PM, but certainly can influence how a significant proportion of the caucus will vote. While Turnbull does not need to worry about TA trying to retake the position of PM, MT can't ignore TA if he wishes to remain at the top.

Paul,

Nearly all the surplus funds donated by the CFMEU has come from corrupt dealings, and comes with strings attached, so the $650 000 for which the Greens act as the CFMEU mouthpiece is corrupt. And SHY is having to repay $8500 of illegally claimed money.

Shadow, you are becoming pathological when it comes to donations to The Greens. I hate to shatter your delusion but there is no evidence that The Greens breached any laws, state or federal, when accepting donations from the CFMEU. Can you point to any findings in a court of law, or by a properly and legally constituted authority, which supports your delusion. The NSW ICAC made a number of adverse findings against Liberal Party members in relation to accepting illegal political (and other) developer funded donations. The law in NSW is clear, a political party must not accept donations from developers the Liberal Party breached that law.

Paul,

You are becoming psychotic in trying to defend the corrupt deals between the unions and the Greens.

It has been proven beyond reasonable doubt that the CFMEU has committed many criminal acts to fill its coffers, and so obviously the money that Dinner Tally accepts for the greens is dirty money from the proceeds of crime.

If the Greens had a shred of dignity it would not only refuse to take these proceeds of crime, but also back away from doing the dirty work in the senate for these organised criminals. But sadly the Greens MPs are following in the tracks of Eddie Obied and Bill Shorten.

Shadow, you continue to go around in circles, off topic, you were the one who broached the subject, assisted by Beach, of The Greens, political donations, CFMEU. nothing to do with the unpopular Tony Abbott. My last post answered your question clearly, which has been answered many times in the past by me. There is no evidence of wrong doing on the part of The Greens or the CFMEU in relation to donations made by that union to The Greens. No one other than you have suggested otherwise, those donations were fully and properly disclosed and are now on the public record.

Please consider that subject closed. Is this the response you have been trolling for? I hope you are now satisfied.

Dear Shadow Minister,

Peter Costello tells us in his memoirs that when
Tony Abbott was elected Party Leader - the general
reaction was - "What Have We Done?"

So, I don't think that you know as much about what
Liberals really think as you think you do.

As for my command of the English language?
I'll match mine with yours an day.
BTW: How many languages do you speak?
I speak several. And I have post graduate qualifications
in English.

Fox, "And I have post graduate qualifications in English"

Do tell. In creative writing and fiction?

Hasn't helped you with any balance.

Google some more David Marr or Ellis.

otb,

It's all a matter of how one views things.

You'd most probably view things in the
following "objective way."

Assigning a "BS" to its "proper" category.

And an MS to - "More of the Same."

And a PHD being - "Piled Higher and Deeper!"

We would not expect anything more from you.

cont'd ...

Just like Mr Abbott thinks -

"Climate change is crap."

"Science is stupid."

"Shyte happens."

It's a "Lifestyle Choice,: for the Indigenous."

"Women like to iron."

And so on.

Mind-boggling!

Foxy,

A collection of inaccurate and manufactured quotes supposedly from Abbott don't convince anyone.

How about KRudd's obscenity filled abuse of staff, flight attendants, make up artists etc. A really peachy feminist. Or how about Juliar's "there'll be no carbon tax" lie, "I have full confidence" in the clearly crooked Thompson etc.

Abbott was clearly the best PM since Howard.

Dear SM,

Tony Abbott certainly did not last very long
and he did get ousted out by his own party.
He also destroyed the conservative advantage:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-08-27/dunlop-abbott-has-destroyed-the-conservative-advantage/6728580

Foxy,

According to the polls the conservative advantage looks stronger than ever. Shorten would be lucky to be elected dog catcher.

Next time try not to post out of date polemics from left whinge bloggers, especially ones that are consistently wrong.

Hi Shadow, being a Liberal Party insider, can I ask of you: Has Malcolm found a job for Tone yet? I do believe the job of Australian Ambassador to Timbuktu is available. There are concerns however that Tone might insult the local camel population and declare war on Mali.
Tone is actually angling for The Australian High Commissioner in London job. Tone feels that would suit, he want to hang out with Price Dill and knock back gin and tonic's with Old Etonians at White’s Gentlemen’s Club

Dear Shadow Minister,

Tony Abbott is his own worst enemy.

He has not learned a thing from being deposed.
As Barrie Cassidy writes, Tony Abbott might
be the "darling of the right" but he doesn't
have the essential community support that even
Kevin Rudd had when he was deposed.

Although Tony Abbott insisted from the start
there would be no wrecking or undermining -
Mr Abbott keeps crossing the line to vindictiveness.

Even John Howard has told Mr Abbott to stop
criticising the new Prime Minister.

The cliche goes that "Time heals all wounds."
Others have argued - it's what you do with the time
that heals. Well the new Prime Minister certainly
does not need a former PM sniping from the back
bench. Neither does the government.
Lets see what this nuisance continues to do with
his time. It won't win him any accolades with the
voters that's for sure!

Dear Paul,

Malcolm Turnbull should send Mr Abbott somewhere
where he could do the least harm.
Preferably - out of the country. London would be
a great idea (except they probably wouldn't want
him). Anyway, he could buck for a knighthood to
match his Rhodes Scholarship (perhaps there's
someone of influence that could help him this
time around as well).

Foxy,

What most left whingers forget is that at the time Abbott brought down MT, firstly Abbott had warned MT that if MT went against the wishes of the caucus he would move to have him replaced. When MT continued, TA moved against him, first asking Brendan Nelson to stand as Leader, then Hockey, neither accepted. TA only then put himself forward.

TA then set about demolishing Labor and in less than a year had torn down Labor's lead from about 14% to zero, and finally putting the liberals in power. Turnbull for all his popularity is standing on TA's shoulders and would not be in power if not for his efforts, and the liberal party, whatever their feelings towards him as PM have not forgotten.

Secondly, in spite of what Barrie Cassidy and other left whingers say, TA has not been sniping at, nor undermining MT. However, he has been stating the opinions of his conservative colleagues. Also while Rudd when deposed might have had the sympathy of some voters, he was despised by many of his colleagues.

Paul,

None of the greens would be trusted with the authority of a crapper in the antarctic.

Dear Shadow Minister,

I feel that Barrie Cassidy like Laurie Oakes is
a highly respected political commentator and
usually tries to maintain objectivity.

He's hit the nail on the head when he stated that
Mr Abbott might be the darling of the right but
he does not have the essential community
support that even Kevin Rudd had when he was deposed.

Of course Malcolm Turnbull may have all the ingredients
to inspire, hence his popularity currently, however he
also has the ingredients to blow up. I'm hoping that
he will be the former. But for that we shall have to
see what Mr Abbott continues to do with his time - and
whether Malcolm Turnbull continues to do well in the
polls. If he slides in the polls - well I guess it will
be anybody's game.

Like a bad smell, Phony Tony is going to try and hang around Canberra to see how he can undermine Turnbull and sabotage his leadership. The fact is Turnbull so dislikes Abbott, he refuses to offer the despised one any sort of juicy plum, sour graps maybe, but no juicy plum, that's for sure.

Paul,

Like a ripe turd, Brown eye Bob has been trying to throw his feeble mind and body against the police and got locked up.

What an embarrassment, the founder of the Greens is a common criminal.

Shadow, such unseemly words from you. I for one am proud of Bob Brown and what he has achieved in his public life. As for being locked up as a common criminal, then Bob has something else in common with the likes of Nelson Mandala and Jesus Christ. If Tony Abbott was to go to prison then he would have another thing in common, besides being a clown, with Harpo Marx.

Heh, heh, what a self-centered, attention-seeking dill Bob Brown is and wasting the time of police who should be chasing criminals.

He is in Gaol? So he should be for acting like a complete arse.

Thousands would buy those police a drink, it is hard to do their duty under circumstances like that.

At the rate Australia is chopping down our
forests there will be no forests left.
Just look at the Australian interior. It
is bare. And yet once there were forests.
So, why do we need forests?
Because we don't want to end up with moonscapes
instead of abundant life. We don't want to end
up with ecological disasters.

There are forested areas in many parts of Australia
that are as beautiful and rich as our Botanical
gardens. Should we not preserve our Botanical
Gardens?

Most Australians would agree that we should.

Are the police in Tasmania in league with the timber
companies?

Brown eyed bob is a sanctimonious self important windbag who has contributed more to carbon emissions than anyone else in Australia by blocking the hydro electric dam.

With respect to political crims, brown eyed bob has more in common with Orkopolous or Thomson, though I do enjoy the thought of that delicate flower doing 27 years hard labour or being publicly executed.

As far as diplomatic postings, I don't see that bunch of lunatics getting anything better than Mongolia, though Brown eyed Bob would like a posting to Mars.

Foxy,

Barrie Cassidy spends most of his time rubbishing the coalition. If he is balanced then so is Pauline Hanson

Dear Shadow Minister,

Perhaps the Coalition at that time deserved
what it got. Hence the replacement of their
leader by his own party.
Speaks volumes! You can't blame Barrie Cassidy
for that.

For me this discussion has now run its course.
Thanks to everyone who contributed to it.
I feel that I've exhausted the subject.
See you on another discussion.

Foxy,

Just about every single article by BC is wildly biased, only someone that is similarly biased could not notice.

TA would get more in pension than he earns as a back bencher, not counting the hundreds of thousands in speaking fees that he could get from speaking in the USA.

Above all TA is a patriot, and his purpose is to ensure that the government keeps on the straight and narrow.

Hi Shadow,

<<Above all TA is a patriot, and his purpose is to ensure that the government keeps on the straight and narrow.>>

Come, come me old chum, we all know why Phony Tony is going to hang about, undermine Turnbull, destroy his PM ship by sniping from the sidelines. Then in his delusion make a lazarus like comeback. Phony Tony has already tried to call around to Buck House to see Queenie about his sacking, no doubt to plead his case of "Mez was robbed, give mez my job back!" Queenie was smart enough to put out the 'Do Not Disturb' sign and Phony Tony had to go home empty handed.

Paul,
I am aware that the concept of patriotism is alien to the greens, as most of your MPs would cheerfully throw any Australian, refugee, the economy, etc under the bus for a bag of money from the CFMEU or 10mins of air time.

In spite of your childish gibbering, it appears that Turnbull has been offering Abbott a diplomatic posting to the UK and that you got it wrong as usual.

PS. I believe that Brown Eye Bob has been appealing to the alien high command to help him avoid the consequences of his criminal activity as most Tasmanians are happy to let him rot.

Dear Shadow Minister,

With all due respect could you provide us with
some evidence about your comments
regarding the Greens, Tasmanians, or
Mr Brown.

Because it does sound like gibberish
spin, and vindictiveness - of which Mr Abbott
has been accused by political commentators
in the media.

Foxy,

"At the rate Australia is chopping down our
forests there will be no forests left.
Just look at the Australian interior. It
is bare. And yet once there were forests."

That is very inaccurate. There was a lot of deforestation when Europeans first settled in Australia, but that was a very long time ago. And AIUI there are even some parts of Queensland that are forested now but weren't 200 years ago.

At present there is no mass deforestation and most of our forests are protected in some way. Where timber is harvested it is replanted. Admittedly there are problems with the way it's harvested and replanted degrading the quality of the forests in some areas, particularly in Tasmania. But we're certainly not running out of forests.

Dear Aidan,

I'll have to do some more research on the subject.
I'm going on what friends who live in Tasmania
(and have done so for years), are telling me.

Is Abbott being paid by the Australian taxpayer while he slinks around the US talking to the Bible Bashing Bigots?

Ripping us off once again!

Shadow, "it appears that Turnbull has been offering Abbott a diplomatic posting to the UK". What diplomatic post could Abbott handle without making a complete cock up of it, making a fool of himself, and embarrassing Australia. Not much of a CV, failed as Prime Minister.
Being a Liberal insider, and a Abbott worshiper, what post? Did it involve the use of a mop and bucket?