ccat, we may be murderers as a moral question, but a lot of moslems call us murderers 'cause we held uncle sam's coat while the usmc cleaned out someone's home with automatic weapons. for them it's not theoretical, it's family blood, whose spilling 'we' supported. get ready for their opinion about that.

so i refuse to be part of 'we', when 'we' in fact is a decision taken in secret by a few politicians. if oz ever grows up to real democracy, we won't be going to war so easily. or so i hope, on the strength of switzerland's history of peace. in any event, if going to war requires public discussion and referendum, we sure as hell won't be using the army to prop up a corrupt wheat contract with a mass murderer.

Interesting objective DEMOS

>>so i refuse to be part of 'we', when 'we' in fact is a decision taken in secret by a few politicians<<

How do you intend to implement this plan?

Wear a badge saying "Don't shoot me, I didn't vote"?

Emigrate to Switzerland?

Join the other side?

It is odd that you set up the entire conundrum thing that started this thread to prove we are committed to the decision our politicians make on our behalf, only to tell us you want to avoid the consequences.

Sadly, with a few well-documented exceptions, politicians and war are an immutable pre-condition of our living in a developed nation. We may not like it all the time, and it certainly isn't the democracy that is advertised on the box, but that is also a normal part of life.

But take my word for it, you'd not like Switzerland. The constant guilt-by-association of living in a country that enriched itself so massively from the sufferings of others through its neutrality in WWII, should not be underestimated.

Okay Demos you do not want to be your 'brother's keeper' but remember 'no man is an island'. The only way to exclude yourself would be to retire to an island and take nothing at all from society...oh, and don't forget that 'property is theft' too so you will not be able to take anything with you - and I am not sure that there are any unclaimed islands so how are you going to negotiate a deal and not be beholden to someone?
Can't be done mate.

yes, participation in society is a problem. i keep a record of my efforts to educate people as to the difference between democracy and pollie rule. if i find myself in the hague court standing next to howard i expect a reduced sentence, at least.

if i keep nagging for a few more years, perhaps some people will be a little less relaxed and comfortable about leaving the engines of state in the hands of moral pygmies. it's all i can do- if i had a magic wand, i'd break it, for my goal is not precisely to make people behave as i see morality. rather, i'm trying to suggest that the failings of human character are best minimized by involving the maximum number of people in social decisions. democracy, in short.

it's not good enough to shrug your shoulders and say, nothing to be done. attaining democracy is extremely simple, if you and enough others are tired of corruption, mismanagement, and endemic injustice. i'm tired of it, i'm working on the 'enough others' part.

DEMOS, for what it is worth, on this we are agreed:

>>that the failings of human character are best minimized by involving the maximum number of people in social decisions. democracy, in short<<

But on this, we differ:

>>attaining democracy is extremely simple, if you and enough others are tired of corruption, mismanagement, and endemic injustice<<

Possibly because I am older and therefore, by definition, more cynical, I suspect that the levers of power are now so welded to the hands of career politicians that it will take violence to detach them.

Not being a violent person myself, I am conditioned - and therefore condemned - to make the best of it.

And as corrupt, mismanaged and unjust as it may be, at least it is *our* corruption, mismanagement and injustice.

Ah Demos - yes, little things can make a big difference....but sometimes it takes an awful lot of little things...an acquaintance of mine once wrote more than 8,000 letters...each letter a small act in itself but designed to influence the whole...before she achieved her goal of getting the UN to declare what became "International Literacy Year". Of course she is still a very small person in the eyes of the national and international community. They never acknowledged her efforts and probably never will although her efforts have had more impact on world affairs than those of any politician in the past 100 or so years. So, don't expect to be acknowledged or thanked for trying to make a difference mate.