With the outlook for our great nation looking more and more of a concern and, considering this site is full of deniers who think our problems are all Abbotts fault, I ask you, are you worried yet?

Have you taken your heads out of the sand a seen what's ahead? Yet you still think we need to protect high wages, protect penalty rates and go on tax witch hunts to get the big end to pay more so we can do even less.

Good luck.

rehctub,

".... considering this site is full of deniers who think our problems are all Abbotts fault..."

Um....so things go into a downward spiral under Abbott - but it's not his or his govt's conduct that's at fault?

Not what you said when you were trashing Labor when it was in govt.

You might like to take into account that Private sector business investment rose 68.8% under previous Labor govt - it is down 15.1% under Abbott govt.

Unemployment is up.

Hockey has decided to do nothing about multinational corporations dodging tax or, for that matter, very rich Australians.

And now, because the govt is doing so crap in the polls, he's spruiking tax cuts.

"Why pick now, of all times, to cut income tax?

Bracket creep - Joe Hockey's stated reason for wanting to cut rates - is at a record low.

That's right. The risk of getting a pay rise that would push up your average tax rate is the lowest since the official wage price index began in 1997. In the past year, wages climbed just 2.3 per cent per cent, which is about as close to zero as wage rises get."

"According to the Treasurer: "It's not a case of either getting back to surplus or having tax cuts and a bigger deficit, that's just not right."

He can't "sit by and allow bracket creep to cover rising government spending".

But bracket creep isn't covering rising government spending. His own May budget booked $25 billion of bracket creep over the next four years, all of it to be directed to bringing down the deficit."

http://www.theage.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/joe-hockey-offers-the-tax-cuts-we-neither-need-nor-can-afford-20150824-gj6o1f.html#ixzz3kHq5SzyV

Govt talking rubbish - as usual.

Globalisation as a strategy and multiculturalism as a tactic are intended to break down communities, restrict political liberties and lower wages and living conditions across the board, I'd say both Labor and the Coalition have lived up to the promises of a liberal democracy. When they went full steam ahead into the "Asian Century" it was implied, if not well understood that the result would be an Asian standard of living for all Australians.

Rehctub, are you for real?

If things are currently going so bad for Australia, isn't that the current Governments fault, as least in part?

How long are you and the other real world deniers going to continue to blame the past Government for what the current one is doing (or not) right now?

I hope you and the other Abbott groupies don't look even vaguely 'foreign' (I assume that to mean dark skinned, bearded, middle eastern looking men?) and plan to walk around the Melbourne CBD, just in case that mad Dutton decides to send the 'border patrol' blokes out to ask people in the streets for their current visa and passport?

Lol! Maybe the refugee boats did make land up north lately after all, and the 'invaders' are congregating in Spencer Street!

The police should have been doing a spot check of cab drivers at the airport rank or local kebab shops, eh Suseonline? Sure way to lose the cab service for the day and no kebabs for that unhappy experience of salmonella from the meat substitution racket.

The leftists are the queens :) of faux outrage. The tabloids are always thankful on a slow news day. Which is most days in view of the lack of talent available for any real investigative journalism.

The police have been conducting spot checks at railway stations for years. It is usual to have the dog squad in case any drugs are found and someone from Immigration to refer any possible visa dodgers to.

Recent history for the memory challenged,

http://tinyurl.com/p2mdrhk

Suse,
In Melbourne the authorities will set up a roadblock and divert all traffic through to a large car park then send each driver through a line of inspectors, the drivers are alchohol and drug tested, their ID and registration are checked, the Sheriff's department checks for outstanding fines or warrants, then immigration status, and vehicle roadworthiness. This happens every single day, most of us workers who spend a lot of time on the road have been through them multiple times in a year and Socialist Alternative don't say a word.
If you want a laugh watch the footage of the Melee at Chris Pyne's visit to Victoria University then view the footage taken on Flinders St hours later, it's the same bloody people, the same hysterical brunette in a blue cardigan is the central character in both news reports.
Does it ever occur to you that these "protestors" might be getting paid to carry out these stunts? Say by, oh I don't know, a TV station or newspaper group, a union or the Labor party?

Here we go - the Einsteins of economic management - the architects of the faux Budget Emergency - are now considering a hike in the GST to pay for tax cuts.

That's after they've boosted the deficit by around $110 billion dollars in two years.

http://www.afr.com/news/politics/coalition-eyes-gst-to-pay-for-tax-cuts-20150830-gjb2oi

"The Abbott government has rekindled the prospect of paying for its promised income tax cuts by increasing the GST, earning it the support of the NSW government, the ire of South Australia and the condemnation of the federal opposition."

""That is our objective to take to the next election a tax reform package," Senator Cormann told Sky News.

He said spending cuts alone would not be enough to fund a tax cut."

Although I wouldn't bank on Hockey as treasurer for much longer....

http://www.theage.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/tony-abbott-being-urged-to-consider-dumping-joe-hockey-and-calling-a-march-election-cabinet-ministers-20150830-gjaysw

We are moving from one disaster to another, the last effort was an attempt at marshal law in Melbourne. How pathetic can this govt; get.

Very few people are supporting Abbott, they are ashamed to say anything about politics. The experiment has failed. Abbot said he would do anything except sell his backside to get into power, well at the last election he did just that. Lies, promises, one million jobs, and everything positive, and that is what he went to the election on.

The people voted for a Coalition govt; and what did we get. We got a Conservative govt; and a budget from hell, 100 % attack on the voters, Abbotts standing suffered an unrepearabel hit. Our country was headed for a catastrophe of mega proportions stated by our treasurer.

We are now in election mode and again being promised the worlds riches, Tax cuts when wages are all-but static, Ladies can go back to work and keep welfare payments. The rot is again setting in like a cancer.
Under the direction of [ Abbott ] this govt; which is more like a one man govt; we have denigrated and become stagnated, Business and consumer alike do not trust Abbott, investment has dwindled to an all-time low, while 110 billion has been added to our debt in 2 years a record breaking amount, without any directed at job creation. This govt; has created it’s own recession, I believe to demonstrate an agenda, we are not allowed to know about.

Only hard core believers can now support the hard right Conservative govt;
Australia is in need of an election to clear the air and reset our governmental strategy to again make this nation a great place to live and work, with confidence.

Tax dodging is rife and our present govt; is reluctant to enforce proper tax collection means, at the same time handing out tax reductions which we can not afford.

We are out of control all because we are 12 months away from an election. This probably means we are in limbo until an election takes place

I am beginning to wonder if it would not be better for Labour to win
the next election.
There are so many straws in the wind about the economic blizzard ahead
of us that I am becoming convinced that there is a real change on the way.

Read this:

http://tinyurl.com/nwtyewe

If Gail Tvberg is anywhere near correct let Bill Shortlan take the blame.

Doog, get real, read my earlier post, if naturalised citizens who drive motor vehicles are required to go out of their way, to be inconvenienced by spot checks of their credentials by government officials then why should non citizens who catch public transport or walk be exempt?
Nobody supports Abbott and his coalition, he's not a conservative, he's not a patriot and he's not a nationalist, but by the same measure Shorten is no alternative, he's as compromised as Tony.
You need to mobilise and re-take control of your side of politics the way we're mobilising to reclaim ours because shock and horror, the patriotic movement is being taken over by adults and the young men who form the core of the movement are growing up fast while your side is being hijacked by hoodlums, weirdos and people dressed up as cartoon characters.

Aside from all the hoo haa about the Royal Commissioner one thing
seems to have come out of the hearings so far.
That there is endemic criminality in the unions in the way they go
about their business, and that in their control of the Labour Party
it looks to me very like interference in the operation of the parliament.

I think there is a law about interfering with parliament's members and
the function of parliament. Am I correct in my assumption ?
If so it should be possible for the speaker to call the offenders to
the Bar of the House and send them to gaol.

Aside from that dramatic course of action surely such obvious control
of members of parliament and so bypassing the voters is an offense somewhere ?

Hi Suse,

I can't believe that anybody could be so stupid as to try this ridiculous visa-checking rubbish. Fifty-odd years ago, when I was getting involved with Aboriginal people, it was only a few years since Aboriginal people were supposedly barred from living in Adelaide (I found out much later that that wasn't actually the case, and never had been). Supposedly, until then, anybody in town had to show their pass - so I read about, but never came across anybody who had experienced it.

But it struck me after a while that, with the increased immigration from the Mediterranean on the one hand, and that fact that many Aboriginal people were pretty pale on the other, how could any copper tell who was Italian or Greek and who was Aboriginal ? So I suspected that it was all an urban myth. Of course Aboriginal people were being picked up for being Drunk and Disorderly, but so would whitefellas.

So, what junior clerk dreamed up this one ? All somebody has to say to an ABF officer is "I'm a citizen, I don't have to carry papers, bugger off", and the whole thing collapses. And anybody with half a brain would have realised that in seconds and send that junior clerk back to high school.

So is all this a beat-up ? Could anybody in a key agency be so dim-witted as to try this on ? I can't really believe it. So it's more of a joke than something to get dreadfully outraged about, lampooning and caricaturing would be more appropriate than jumping up and down with a bull-horn.

Joe

It is said that people get the governments they deserve. We all get 1 vote every 3 years (federal elections). There are only 2 parties with a cigarette paper between them (as far as bastardry and incompetence goes), that can form government, and only about 5% of voters can cause a swap between the two.

With a system like that, what can you expect!

Suse: the rubbish you flung into the ring has nothing to do with the topic.

Tttbn, how about re structuring parliament as a sort of "council of elders" all members should be over 55, have run their own business and have been born in Australia.

Just how far have we sunk when the lefties on here want to protect the illegals in our midst.

Getting their knickers in a knot because some criminals may be caught in a street sweep, or a royal commission into union activities says it all.

God help us.

Loudmouth,

"But it struck me after a while that, with the increased immigration from the Mediterranean on the one hand, and that fact that many Aboriginal people were pretty pale on the other, how could any copper tell who was Italian or Greek and who was Aboriginal ? ..."

Lol! - coz people of indigenous decent look exactly like Italians and Greeks.

"Coppers" must have been a little dim back then : )

"So, what junior clerk dreamed up this one ?"

Too funny - Abbott goes to all the trouble of paramilitarising public servants, spiffing them up in sinister uniforms - costing over 6 million dollars - insinuates the ABF into Victoria policing - the brief went to Dutton's office "twice".

And as the lamest of lame excuses, Abbott reckons it's all down to a poorly worded briefing....a very very poorly worded briefing.

We know where this came from - it wasn't a surprise. Abbott and his terror hysteria agenda had been priming this for quite a while.

It must get right up his nose that social media shoved it right back in the can.

.......

Also noting that Cambodia has decided to nix taking anymore refugees - after collecting $40 million (+$15 million = $55 million) for taking 4.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/aug/31/cambodia-has-no-plans-to-take-more-nauru-refugees-in-55m-australia-deal?CMP=soc_567

Good one, Tones!

Has been,

You might be missing the point: anybody in the business would realise immediately that it wasn't going to work: imagine Indian and Chinese-origin citizens being asked for their visa or in fact, any papers at all. As citizens, like any other citizen, why should they have to carry them ? Nobody even has to have a driver's licence on them if they're not actually driving.

It's simply too idiotic to bother getting enraged about. I hope heads roll. Oops ! Sorry, I meant nothing derogatory about the pseudo-left's new ISIS friends.

Joe

More Labour/Greens simply lead to Greece like conditions. The masses sucking on the public purse will continue to vote for them, unions will still pocket workers money, youth unemployment will be approaching 50% and the illegal immigration traders will benefit greatly. Then people will be dumb enough to ask why. Just look at the intelligence of our Senate now.

Bazz is into conspiracies, and now he wants to jail the only party that takes the plight of workers seriously.

Corruption is endemic in all places where money is involved, If you got your findings from the RC it’s findings are under the microscope too.

The marshal law debacle goes to the top no matter what any one says. I mean can you really take this lot seriously in what they say.

Abbott has caused all downfalls single handedly with out assistance and this shemozzle is no difference than all the rest. Questions need to be asked. Like a breath of fresh air really.

Anyone in favor of what is going on is in cover up mode, that is all they can do, not a word of praise for their much loved repressive regime, just excuses and throwing the bag over it trick, face saving and just a failure to meet realism head on.

All of the crystal ball gazers that know what shorten or who ever else is going to do is dyed in the wool or suffering from some sort of illness.

We are in a state of under-governing for quite some time now, and another 12 months to go even though there is a DD for the offering, which has not even rated a mention.

It’s in the lap of the all-mighty gods as to where we are headed for, we are a ship with out a hull, and no wind to take us any where.

It is many years now since State governments thought to make it lawful and a common practice for police to stop a citizen to (lawfully) demand such details as proof of identity, where they have been and are going and current address.

At the time there were those fools back then as there are now who scoffed at any arguments based on privacy and liberty, saying that if one wasn't doing any wrong one shouldn't be objecting to being stopped and questioned.

Once it was wrong for police to stop a citizen where s/he had no evidence of a possible offence.

You get the same mentality and argument supporting more incursions against privacy. Street cameras is an example, as could be the DUI laws. Authoritarians come in all shades, although for many years now they have been more red, as in leftist. But then left automatically becomes totalitarianism one day, so nothing unexpected there.

Nothing like the organised left for staging a public demo though. There are so many serial pests who get their jollies from irritating 'authority' and they get their rocks off by appearing to make 'authority' back down. Nothing like the tabloids either for encouraging the pests with free publicity.

Honestly, who hasn't seen the media talking with demonstration leaders who obviously called them to the scene and oblige by setting up 'incidents' for film bites?

I am worried because operations in Australia, as elsewhere around the globe, are irreversibly using up limited natural resources, including oil amongst a vast range, and producing material wastes, including those causing climate disruption and ocean warming and acidification. This is an unsustainable process that is going to make life hard for the coming generations. We need a Earth's Lodgers' Activity Movement (ELAM) to sponsor sound measures to ease the inevitable powering down.

otb,

"Nothing like the organised left for staging a public demo though. There are so many serial pests who get their jollies from irritating 'authority' and they get their rocks off by appearing to make 'authority' back down. Nothing like the tabloids either for encouraging the pests with free publicity."

Lol!...must get right up the nose of all you ultra-righies.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/aug/31/australias-treatment-of-asylum-seekers-was-bound-to-lead-to-something-like-border-force?CMP=soc_568

Richard Flanagan

"It was news to me, as I suspect it was to many Australians on Friday, that there had been created in our country a paramilitary force that seemed not answerable to the legal limits and public expectations of our police and military forces, but only, and directly, to politicians – those same politicians who of late seem to have little respect for the rule of law, the truth, or the necessary independence of the judiciary.

Known as the Australian Border Force, this goon squad – formerly public servants, lately militarised at considerable taxpayer expense, given guns, the power to detain people, vaguely fascistic uniforms and a mandate that seems to not recognise the laws of their own country – were, we now told, mounting a large operation on Melbourne CBD streets, “speaking with any individual we cross paths with”.

As is so often the case with the Abbott government, this comic event felt like Vladimir Putin meets Rob Sitch’s Utopia; something sinister undone by a reliable stupidity, perhaps our last national virtue. The hallmark bullying swagger of this government’s was matched in this instance by a grovelling backdown as the illegality of the proposed actions become clear and public condemnation overwhelming, and the arse-saving swung into full gear."

"Roman Quaedvlieg, the darkly uniformed head of the goon squad, blamed the now apparently lowly Don Smith, (who, as many pointed out, didn’t sound so lowly as commander of Victorian and Tasmanian operations of the Australian Border Force) drafter of the original media statement announcing the operation."

doog said;
Bazz is into conspiracies, and now he wants to jail the only party
that takes the plight of workers seriously.

What a load of rubbish. Where did I ever make a reference to conspiracy ?
Are you saying that the criminal activities that has caused some
union officials to be gaoled and to be under investigation is all a
conspiracy ?

If they have broken the law by means of unlawful pressure on members
of parliament then they should be gaoled.
Some commentators in and out of the unions may well have breached the
law against attacking the Royal Commission and Commissioner.
If they have, why should unions be exempt ?
Is that want you want ?
Legal exemption from the law for trade unions ?

Pairot.
The level of down heartedness is incredible isn’t it . Can anybody think of anything worth while that has happened in this tenure of conservative govt;

It’s all bad, nothing but cover ups and untruths. Now upping the GST is going to finance the TAX CONSESSIONS. There is always a sting in the tail with this mob.
The scar monger campaigns are not working for them. Why, maybe it is overdone, and no one believes it any more, and that could become dangerous.

The goon squad. Mr Smith I wonder if that is an alias in case of a life after politics, as a puppet of you know who. That job will go down in history as another of you know who’s cock-ups.

All good and well but not in this country, Their role is for drug smuggling on the high seas, not infiltrating the police force, We don’t have prohibition or Marshal law. We don’t even have an ID card, which is common practice in neighboring countries.

Bazz get a grip of yourself. No one said anything about the unions not being at fault, albeit on shaky grounds.

The conspiracy’s come from the type of stuff you read which needs multiple scenarios to come together at the same time to work. [ Crystal ball gazer

Jay,

Yes. As long as they didn't make a career of it. One of the main problems is career pollies who see it as just another job, with good money, perks and super they don't pay for. Service to the public doesn't come into it.

To those of you concerned about racial profiling,

Remember, multiculturalism and immigration was instigated by social engineers in opposition to nature. Originally, pale skinned people lived in cool countries away from the equator; darker skinned people lived in hot countries nearer to the equator. The reasons for this are obvious. Natural occurrences beat human manipulation every time. Early colonists were the first to interfere with nature, and that is why whites in Australia have the highest skin cancer rate in the world.

We should have all stayed where we originated, but we didn't, and Australia is now a white nation. So, it's daft to think that non-whites wouldn't be picked out for checking. If you think that nobody should be checked, well that's tough, and you clearly do not care about what happens to your country. But, spot checks will have to occur eventually, with a a growing number of overstayers and illegals on bridging visas who have disappeared into the populace. Without a doubt, the immigration department should checking all the time on certain work groups where there wont be a white person in sight. If you luvvies are concerned about only non-whites being checked, just remember, you brought it about with your pro-multicultural/everyone welcome nonsense.

Does anyone know what doog is talking about ?

Anyway the commissioner is staying and already the TV is bursting with
pollies and others getting all excited about it.
What on earth are they so worried about ?
Are they frightened about what has come out and what may ?
Guilty consciouses ?

To be honest, I doubt anyone could have done any better than Abbott simp,y because he inherited a basket case from hanginades left behind from the red head, to billions of waste committed by Rudd, not to mention the billions needed to fund Rudds illegals debacle. They Di try to put measures in place with their first budget, but nobody wanted to do the heavy lifting mostly because they thought Rudd was the tooth fairy and the billions he gave away, much of which was allowed to be wasted, never had to be paid back.

I'm with Bazz, let Bill have the keys to the lodge so they can Finnish us off.

When we hit the bottom, we will then be FORCED to reform, from welfare waste to minority noise makers lime the gay marriage punters, all of which have far to much air time right now.

Once we het the bottom and there are very few jobs, wages will come back to where they need to be because so long as we continue to increase wages over and above CPI, which has been the case for years it had to end in tears. We must also remember that super contributions from employers also count as wage increases.

It stands to reason that if CPI sits at say 3% and wages increase by 5% then that's not sustainable the other problem is that conditions enjoyed today were brought about by union demands in boom times and those boom times are gone.

We either give some now or loose lots down the track. Your call.

So are you worried yet?

No, I've given up worrying.
We're doomed.

1. The multicultural/globalist runaway train (yes, it's one and the same train) will keep on chugging, no matter what the economic/social/environmental consequences, fuelled by idealist fantasy and selfish greed.

2. This will lead to chaos, despair, hostilities, vandalism, lone wolf violence, territorial skirmishes.

3. This will escalate into terrorism and guerrilla warfare (by nationalists, minorities and "anti-fascists").

4. This will lead to an authoritarian regime, whether elected or not, attempting to belatedly restabilise a disintegrating society.

5. Such regime, as they always do, will go too far and eventually self-destruct or be sabotaged into oblivion.

6. When the dust settles, the mass graves are concreted over and the bombed buildings demolished, the surviving population will be wearier but wiser, vowing to never repeat phases 1-5 ever again.
Never, ever, ever again.

Of course, this could all be avoided.
By simply not letting step 1 proceed *any further*.

But we can't do that, can we?
That would be waysist.

By and large Shockadelic you are right. The hilarious if not pathetic part of it all is that the regressive media will and are deceitful enough to blame the people who have been warning of this for decades. If that fails blame it on global warming.

No.

There's no point: the future hasn't happened yet, so why worry about it?

The past has already happened and you can't change it, so why worry about it?

The only thing worth worrying about is the ever-fleeting and elusive now, which I find is best approached with an upbeat frame of mind. Like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApAth15BXVc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlBiLNN1NhQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yv-Fk1PwVeU

Anybody else notice how easy all three of these songs are easy to sing, even if you're musically challenged?

When you're feeling in the dumps
don't be silly chumps
just purse your lips and whistle
that's the thing.

Your are a bit late with your prediction Shockadelic, it is already happening. Just a quick look at Europe, where member states of the EU are now fighting an unarmed invasion by so-called asylum seekers from Africa & the middle east.

There is already conflict between countries over how to stop this invasion, or where. France is complaining because the UK is stopping them, or trying to, at the channel.

They will have to start shooting soon, rather than rescuing, or Europe will disappear under a wave of useless humanity it can not support.

It is highly doubtful they will do enough to protect themselves before it is too late, the sensitive new age culture won't let them. Total collapse is not all that far away I'm afraid.

Eat drink & be merry, while you can.

Big Joe is focused on repairing the budget says Julie Bishop with a grin like a Cheshire cat . Sinnods recons joe is doing a marvelous job and should not be subject to leaks. And when we catch the culprit we will sack the lot of them. I am not sure why, maybe Joe is allergic to leaks.

"Joe's a great bloke, he's doing a tremendous job and we're all focused on jobs, growth and community safety," he told Macquarie Radio.
The circus trundles on, another day another blunder. When will it end. 110 billion in 2 years and not worthy of a mention. Incredible isn’t it.

Bombing Syria, cutting taxes, and dumping Joe Hockey as Treasurer - the latest ideas coming out of this Government suggest Tony Abbott is desperately scrabbling for anything in the hope of escaping his dire situation,
6 million $ worth of uniforms, our country is under constant threat. The biggest threat this country has is this govt; The act of a dying government. Cop a load of the fruit salad on Mr Smith. He makes Mr Abbott look like a pygme.

Abbott has 'full confidence' in Hockey

Tony Abbott rejects suggestions he is being urged to sack Joe Hockey, saying the Treasurer "has my full confidence and he has the full confidence of the Cabinet".

That is always the case.

The govt; is continually creating it’s own headlines. Dutton is now blaming Fairfax for his blunders. You can only get back what you put in.

7/11 stores the latest in a string of slave trade employment opportunities preying on kids and those in venerable situations. 457 visa’s have to go. With no money for wage recovery, as all money is tied up in investment properties [ needs to be fixed ] What a rort set up by this govt.

Yes Hasbeen, the mob does not have a clue.
If they want enlightenment they should read Joseph Traintner's book
The Collapse of Complex Societies.

Gail Tvberg's lattest post makes very interesting reading on this matter.
While she states that the financial collapse will happen quite soon
she may be wrong there and I certainly hope so.
Even if Gail's timing is wrong I think the principle is sound.
The Fourier analysis is above my maths but I do understand what it is.
I can see the inputs and see how they affect the output.
Right or wrong it does help to understand what is going on.

http://tinyurl.com/nwtyewe

Hasbeen "They will have to start shooting soon, rather than rescuing, or Europe will disappear under a wave of useless humanity it can not support. "

That is a disgraceful statement Hasbeen, even for you.
Are you suggesting shooting all the women, children and babies too, or will that just be their male relatives?

Will that be carried out indiscriminately at the borders, or will they be rounded up and shot so they all fall neatly into mass grave sites they prepared earlier?
Maybe they could save the bullets and just round them up and gas them in huge gas-chambers set up near the borders?

Maybe you, Banjo and JOM could offer your services? It is all very well asking for this killing to happen if you guys aren't the ones gunning innocent people down.

Will all this be shown on TV stations around the world, just so everyone will know that these pesky asylum seekers are 'being dealt with' so we don't have even more 'foreigners' in any of those countries?

My suggestion would be that all those refugees are processed correctly and then the people are 'shared out' equally amongst all the world's countries so we can all take on some of the burden, and not leave it all to the European countries.
These people , especially those from Syria and Northern Africa, are running for their lives.
Show some compassion from your comfortable lounge chair...

The atmosphere is glum, You only get your own back as govt; changes like the seasons. Some change more frequent than others.

The coalition camp leaking like a sieve, Abbott on the outer, Hockey under pressure from within. All is not well.

Cambodia wanting 10 million / refugee. Sure makes you wonder why we have to pay for genuine refugees to stay in Cambodia. That’s right Abbott said no boaters will ever be allowed into Australia. That is the price you pay I suppose.

Nauru and Mannis must be full. The worst part about sending them to Cambodia is the country will not see any of the money, it will go straight into the back pockets of officials.

Senate Committee says Nuaru not suitable for refugees, these people have to suffer because of human flesh traffickers, I don,t know what that will achieve.

When the RC into detention starts Bob hawk has already agreed to be Judge and Jury, so that will give us some entertainment wont it.
Fairfax and ABC in firing line today,for over reporting.

If the stories were not there to be published I would agree. It’s a wonder they are not blamed for an attack on 457 visa’s.

Fairfax are running a Jihad against Dutton, he says.
"Mr Abbott said when he was opposition leader in 2013, 'If you want better coverage, be a better government'," he said.

Govt; members are not allowed to leak. They are all going to be fat in the face by now.

When the Border Force says it will do something outside the law, and the Minister responsible won't comment, it's a special breed of journalist which calls the resulting furore an over-reaction, writes Greg Jericho.

Hi Suse,

Yes, these poor people are not the perpetrators, they're the victims, of the war in Syria - and will keep coming as long as the war grinds on.

So how could it possibly be brought to a close ? What began as a civil war has been complicated by the irruption of a third force, Islamo-fascism, taking advantage of the weakness of both (all ?) of the other sides.

Most certainly, the ISIS barbarians must be defeated as soon as possible, but the irony is of course that this strengthens - relatively - the Assad forces, even as they become ever weaker, and keeps the war going even longer, and ever more brutally. In other words, attacks on one group of fascists prolongs the life-expectancy of another group of fascists, and the people in between suffer all the more.

I suspect that, left alone, ISIS would defeat Assad's forces fairly quickly. The dilemma is that, of all the evil forces in that part of the world, ISIS is probably the worst. Being of conspiratorial mind, I wonder if this is the main reason that the US won' get involved on the ground: that they anticipate that the 'worst enemy', ISIS, will defeat the 'second worst enemy', Assad, soon enough, and THEN the US and its allies can focus on defeating ISIS more or less alone (plus al-Nusra, etc.). But as long as they combat ISIS in the current situation, the more in balance the situation stays. Horrible.

As well, if the US got involved now on both of those sides, it would be up against whatever Russia and Iran can provide in support of Assad. But once Assad has been defeated by ISIS, then they can get stuck in, and with the support, rather than the opposition, of Iran.

Meanwhile, the mills of war grind people away, by the millions.

And we fart around about gay marriage and a republic.

Cheers,

Joe

The bleeding hearts, & the left/green dreamers are the 2015s Neville Chamberlain.

When will they wake up & face reality? Will they wake up in time, or is western civilisation finished?

I'm afraid my grandkids do not have much future when we will not bite the bullet & start cutting down the way we try to give ourselves & our indolent, the lifestyle of kings, & shoulder all the troubles the rest of the world precipitate upon themselves.

It really is time to stop stargazing, & start repelling boarders. Self perseveration demands it.

Aren't you going to answer my questions above Hasbeen, or are you just blowing hot air with no real substance?

I will leave it to Hasbeen to answer for himself Suzie, but tell me,
how many families can you billet ? Two, three or four ?

Or do you think we should setup concentration camps for them ?
We are just making trivial statements here.

The real crunch is what do you do when the railway stations are full
and they are all filling the parks and streets ?
It is an invasion. It has gone beyond a few asylum seekers turning
up and asking for help.

Sorry Suse, I thought your question was simply rhetorical. Obviously I don't have the answer of course, but mine makes more sense than yours.

You are one of those who wants more of everything for every dropkick in Oz now. The fact is we just can't afford the degree of larges we now distribute. Take in a few million more useless of these people, & that is the end of our existing welfare system, & we have a bunch of freeloaders we didn't even have the fun of breeding.

Where are you going to stop. There's a couple of million in New guinea who would like a nice house in Sydney, & all living costs provided. How about a few tens of millions of Indonesians who live pretty tough, room for them?

Then there's about a million Chinese who still live in caves, & perhaps a couple of hundred million more, who would like Sydney too. Oh & I forgot the poor people of Bangladesh, can they come too?

And this is before you start bringing all these people who hate us, & just want our welfare.

You fail to realise perhaps that today's oppressed is simply those who lost the fight. If they had won, they would be every bit as willing oppressors, & their current oppressors, those fleeing. The world has always been thus, & will remain so despite your wishes for something better.

I have no sympathy for anyone who will not fight for their country. Those who run, & demand refuge will never make a worthwhile citizen anywhere. Through out Europe, & here, once these people feel safe they revert to type, & you have yet another criminal element. Watch out for African gangs in many previously nice places, like Penrith.

Yes it's nice smelling the daisies, but some time you will have to wake up, the world just is not all sweetness & light. Give away your birth right if you like, but keep your hands off mine.

As Bazz says, how many will you personally take into your house permanently?

Here's one for rehctub and Bazz and anyone else who thinks the Abbott govt has the best interests of working Australians at heart.

"TONY Abbott’s commitment to protect Australian jobs has been battered by a company’s claim it was advised by a Government official to sack local staff and hire cheaper foreigners.

A cruise line executive has accused the official of advising he soften the blow to the company payroll from proposed new hiring laws by eliminating Australian workers.

North Star Cruises told a Senate inquiry the senior Department of Infrastructure and Regional Development bureaucrat suggested the company move operations to another country with cheaper wage rates.

The advice clashes with assurances from Prime Minister Tony Abbott the Government is protecting and growing employment as a priority, and feeds into Labor’s concerns the China Free Trade Agreement could give Australian jobs to Chinese workers."

"Mr Milby said one official had advised him to “consider taking our ship True North off the Australian Shipping register, re-register the ship in a suitable foreign country, lay off our Australian crew and hire a cheaper foreign crew’’.

He said the advice was repeated at a June 16 meeting in Canberra."

http://www.news.com.au/national/politics/government-official-proposes-new-hiring-laws-by-eliminating-australian-workers/story-fns0jze1-1227508468291

(That's from the Murdoch stable - in case anyone thinks, like Dutton, that it's an ABC/Fairfax conspiracy:)

Hasbeen, where have I said anywhere on this forum that Australia should have open borders and take all and sundry? You are getting hysterical now.

Are you still advocating that we shoot all the refugees and asylum seekers?

I find it very revealing that open borders is exactly what you are advocating Suse, but either you don't understand the effect of taking in the thousands that are coming, or you don't want to admit to yourself that this is exactly the long term result of your desire to help these people.

All & any help will merely encourage more in a huge escalation. I don't know if Europe have the ridiculous family reconciliation policy that we have. If so they will get a dozen more for every one they let in now. In that case Germany has just opened their door to about a million last month alone.

They are going to have to stop them, & in view of the stupidity of the bleeding hearts about our policy of offshore detention centres, once they let them in, they'll never get rid of them.

There is already fighting in France with the French, & the Moroccan Muslim imports, with like us, no go areas in their larger cities. Let these middle eastern lot in, & European countries, will become ungovernable. The resulting chaos will help no one, & will lead to civil war. Middle eastern Muslims can not run a civil society, nor live in one.

Anyone who does not repel an invasion will be defeated.

'Repel an invasion" Hasbeen?
Do we repel them by shooting them all....or what?

Should we shoot them all at the borders to other countries, or will we just bomb their home countries before they have a chance to leave?

Would we even want to live in a world where half the world''s population had shot or destroyed the other half? World War 3?
How sad...

Suzie said;
Would we even want to live in a world where half the world''s
population had shot or destroyed the other half? World War 3?

What do you think is happening now ?

Only in your dreams Bazz.
I hope that common sense and compassion prevails and we don't end up with World war 3.

Suze, the underlying problem with the people is that despite the bleak future they face, they won't stop breeding. Surely responsible parenting says that if there are no jobs, no housing and limited to no food or water, that that is no environment for a child. We have similar problems here as well only we have a now depleted welfare system that approaches this problem with open arms, simply because nobody in government posses a big stick. Yet, while we obviously don't have the resources to fund our own messes, you want to take some of our welfare away to give to foreigners, its just unsustainable and the sooner we come to that realization the sooner we can concentrate on looking after our own who by the way have been neglected, which is particularly sad for those who have worked for forty plus years and deserve the have a well earned break.

Poirot, there is a very very simple solution, it's called, stop the consumer from forever chasing a bargain because so long as over seas competitors can offer cheap deals, based on lower running costs, anyone doing business here has no choice other than to find ways to cut costs.

Another example is that while our dairy farmers continue to go broke, consumers, the most powerful lobby group in the country, continue to buy $1/ lt milk.

Our country is teetering on the edge of a recession and we have not yet lost our car industries, yet you still believe the tooth fairy will just save all our Jonson, along with our overly generous wages and conditions.

You had best keep dreaming because dreams are one thing no government can take away.

Suzie, the war is still going on, what do you think has been happening
in France, it is war, it is just that it is now the new form of war.
Nuclear weapons have made the old style war a loss loss proposition.

This mass migration type of invasion is recommended in the Koran, the
Islamist even have a word for it Hijaz, I think is the correct spelling.
Europe has a growth problem and Germany will have a financial problem
with these numbers and the cost will put them into recession.

I notice that the Poles have said they will only accept Christians.
I suspect they have learnt the lesson of France, Netherlands and Belgium.

Rehctub, If those refugees and asylum seekers don't have the money for food, clothing or housing, how do you think they would afford to buy contraceptives, even if their religions allowed them to use them? Sex is one affordable comfort they may have left, and you would take even that from them?

Buzz, we know about the mass exodus from warring countries, but as far as I know, they aren't all Muslims. Even if they were, those people haven't declared war on Europe or Australia, regardless what a holy book says.

So what do you suggest Europe does?
Are you with Hasbeen in suggesting genocide?
Do you think shooting them all at the borders is a good idea?
How does that make us any better than terrorists?

Of course not Suzie and I do not think Hasbeen was advocating that.
Saying that he does sounds a bit like the technique that the left
applies to anything Abbott, Hockey and the others say and twist the
literal meaning of their words, ignoring the detail of what is said.
Yes I am accusing you of being a spinner, I think you must be giddy.

Looking at the crowds of immigrants on our nightly screens and that
the majority are young men under 50, what I would do would be with the
UN deport all those young men to Jordan where there are 4 million
refugees, add to the young men those in those camps and form them into
an army and send them to Syria to fix up their own mess.
If they are unable to fix their own problem, it is after all not our
problem, let them stew in it until it dawns on them that they have
to make peace with their neighbours.

At present they want the West to come in and fix it all up for them
and frankly there has been more than enough western blood spilt
doing that for them already.

Suze, having unprotected sex does not mean kids are born, it's the attitude that leads to conception, either that, or there are hundreds of thousands of accidents every year. Besides, surely the billions we provide in aid could see condoms being provided but once again the attitude of the men would no doubt see them go to waste.

Remind me again why we should be doing what ye can towards saving them!

Not sure of your age Suze, but I'm a new grandfather and I can assure you that my grand son will do without some of what I had just to look after Rudds invitees.

Hasbeen "They will have to start shooting soon, rather than rescuing, or Europe will disappear under a wave of useless humanity it can not support. "

Bazz, after reading this comment from Hasbeen, how else am I supposed to think?
What do you think he meant?

I believe the refugees from the awful warring places like Syria should be processed properly, given temporary visa's, and have them placed around Europe and beyond, so no one country is over-loaded. Once the conflict has settled, then they should be returned home.

We really can't blame the far from useless people from all sorts of countries from trying to reach a better, safer place for them and their families to live. Unless the rest of the world give plenty of assistance to improve the plight of the poorer people from those countries, then we can expect this migration catastrophe to get worse.

If We ignore the plight of these people, then we deserve what we get...

So Suze I note you have not yet answered the very simple question from hasbeen, that being how many families are you prepared to billet.

By billet that means you pay to keep them, not the tax payer.

Words are cheap and there is a huge difference between saying we should do something and actually doing something yourself.

I said a several years ago when Rudd created thus mess that we were being peacefully invaded and that we must either take out the big stick now, or wait until they come with guns.

Which is it to be?

Don't be ridiculous Rehctub, where has anyone been asked to billet anyone?
You are being hysterical now.
Mind you, I would sooner agree to billet someone than start shooting innocent people at the borders...

Well one day Suze we are going to have to make such a choice because we are now seeing the result of the do gooders decades of intervention whereby they have encouraged these people to mass breed without any prospects for their offspring.

Personally I think wolrld war three has started, it just hasn't got violent yet, but give it time.

Yes Rehctub I too am sometimes fearful of a Third World War, but I never imagined that would come from the many refugees flocking into Europe.
I thought maybe Russia, China or North Korea may cause some issues, with their obvious military power and sheer numbers of military personnel?

In any case, I am devastated by the photo of that little drowned Syrian boy on the beach, and even more upset that both Abbott and Shorten used that photo to try and win brownie points with the electorate.

Shorten crows that his government would take in more refugees...which still doesn't help what is happening in Europe right now.

Abbott gloats how he is now happy he 'stopped the boats' because isn't he much cleverer than all those other leaders of the stricken countries in Europe. Of course, there isn't an awful Syrian war and African civil wars going on just across a small ocean from us is there?

I would suggest that if Syria was located in Indonesia we would have the very same problem as Europe because there is no way we could ever stop all those boats, nor could we arrange to 'send them all back' to the dreadful war they are fleeing from.
What a tool both our political leaders are!

Suze, the sad reality is that the world is now too smaller place and many people are going to be displaced. The unknown factor is whether or not countries are going to allow these people in, or if they are going to use force to repel them and if they do, the any retaliation by these people would then be world war three.

Another sad fact is that at some point, hopefully not in our time, leaders will have the most awful choice to make as to whether to commit another kull just like Hitler did because like it or not, there are two things that will most definitely happen, one being these people will not stop breeding and the other being countries will be unable to assist.

I just hope I'm gone before such a situation presents itself.

Suseonline "Of course, there isn't an awful Syrian war and African civil wars going on just across a small ocean from us is there?"

No there isn't.
So why the hell are we getting ANY boat people at all?

Look at Australia on Google Earth.
We're almost alone on our "side" of the planet.

Pray Indonesia doesn't fall apart or we're in real trouble!

There is a crunch coming sooner than many realise.
One of the early effects will be a significant rise in food prices
and remember what that did to Mubarik in Egypt.

The drought in Syria has added to the problem with IS.
It is about time that our politicians, especially the greens take
notice of what they are being told about energy and tell the
economists to be quiet and listen.
Some government organisations, the NRMA and others are warning them
but the news is too uncomfortable firstly to believe and then to tell
the public. We have wasted the last ten year breather that we got
so we now have left it too late.
We can no longer afford nuclear power, high speed trains universal
gb byte internet etc. When we go into recession the cuts will be so
severe I just wonder if we will be able to borrow the money to pay
our interest bill as we do now.

In those conditions what effect would a few hundred thousand immigrants arriving have ?
Just watch Germany that will tell you.
Then there is Egypt, it has 45 million more people than the Nile can feed !

Well I for one am not worried.

Australia is financially sovereign. Our debt to GDP ratio is actually very low, but even if it were twice as high as Greece's is now, we'd still be able to borrow more because we own the Reserve Bank.

Refugees are people. That should go without saying, but unfortunately many of the posters on this site, and even some government ministers, keep wrongly assuming them to be parasites!

Refugees aren't invaders. They're trying to get away from the serious problems in their own countries.

Australia is big. We've got room for lots more people. Particularly in The North.

Of course there are many things to worry about. Tony Abbott seems to be going in the wrong direction on nearly everything. If I thought he had much chance of winning the next election, I'd be very worried.

Aidan "Australia is big."

A big desert.

Got a magic wand that turns desert into non-desert? Fabulous!

"We've got room for lots more people. Particularly in The North."

Did you run that by the Aborigines?
They seem to "own" a lot of that North.

Lucky for you Aidan, we have no shortage of sand for the likes of you to stick your heads in.

Aidan, what our debt to GDP is now is not what we should be focusing on, as what we should be focusing on are two points, One, where were we ten years ago, and Two, we are now post boom times and the previous boom spoils were wasted.

Considering where we are today, compared to ten years ago and, considering we are still to my knowledge a AAA rated economy, suggests there's daylight between first and second place and, should we slip into second place, (a non AAA rating) it would be near on impossible to recover from there without another boom.

One of the fundamental irregularities between business and politics is that while politics relies on past data when forward planning, business focusses on predicted futures, a kind of crystal ball approach and is the reason so many large companies lay staff off despite having record profits, because the record profits 'have already happened' and are essentially old news. Economists also fall into the same trap in my view.

How any government can sit there and say they will fix unemployment, knowing that our car industries are on their last legs is beyond me.

Continued.

As a long term liberal voter, (labor lost my vote when Bob lost the top job) I find myself in a position of wanting to, for the first time in decades, vote for none of the above.

The sad reality is that I feel we need a very deep recession so we can find the bottom, then start to rebuild with all the unions and over generous working conditions gone, or with their backs to the wall.

By having such a recession will also allow us to address important issues like welfare distribution and waste, including indigenous welfare and what many consider to be unfair perks for such people because let's face it, many of us who see these people hanging around a pub or park, not working, take that as the norm.

The other very important issue is serous tax reform. Not one that just increases the GST, one that taxes everybody evenly and fairly. I think the Abbott Goverment is starting to look down this path at long last.

We need to tax spendings, not earnings, by way of a finical transaction tax because by doing such would remove the burden of consumption tax from those who have already paid income tax in most cases.

Of cause the worst effected are those who don't contribute, but someone has to loose and provided we look after those who can't fend fir themselves, then the rest would be collateral damage, and by look after I don't mean give them cash to spend as the like as is the case now.

Tough times will require tough fixes and we can't go from a government incurred debt of hundreds of billions without feeling the pain.

Abbots got guts on the international stage.

When countries, groups, and people around the world
Try to dictate what Australia's policies should or Shouldn't be
He simply tells them no. He doesn't say how high do you want Australia to jump
Like a lot of labour politicians and greens do.

That is a big plus for me.
I am not the usual Liberal party voter, knowing the bloody history
Of the fights and struggles the workers have had with the conservative Tory
Classes in centuries past.

That is financial, at the moment I am more concerned with national security
Above the financial worries. One of which is the banning of penalty rates for my
15year old granddaughter who works at bigW to earn pocket money whilst studying at high school.

But at the moment I would vote for Abbott on the strength of his tough stand against
All those who want to override Australian sovereignty.

"But at the moment I would vote for Abbott on the strength of his tough stand against all those who want to override Australian sovereignty"

Many would agree with you.

Regardless of who occupies the government benches in Canberra there will have to be further cuts to welfare. That is not understood by rhose who applauded Labor and Greens cynicism in frustrating Abbott's budget initiatives in the Senate.

Shockadelic, Australia has several big deserts, but there's a huge amount of Australia that's not desert.

Reversing desertification is difficult, but it is possible. A magic wand won't help: it requires water and a small amount of clay. Often erosion control measures are also needed.

Why do you assume northern Australia's Aboriginal population to be anti development?

________________________________________________________________________________________

rehctub, if you want a deep recession then I suggest you keep voting for the Liberals. But before you do, please get rid of the absurd notion that it would do any good whatsoever. Recessions erode our skill base and destroy wealth.

How much do you think worsening our working conditions improves our competitiveness (in terms of US cents that the market would have to devalue our dollar by to give it an equivalent competitiveness boost)? Does your answer take into account the productivity boost from increased mechanisation that our higher wages encourage?

I strongly disapprove of taxing spending. It's far better to have free trade and tax the wages and profits than it is to impose taxes that make it harder to make a profit. And we don't gain anything good from shifting more of the tax burden onto those least able to pay it.

Australia has almost no sovereign debt, and has not taken any on for decades. We have unlimited credit in Australian dollars, so investors have a 100% chance of getting their money back. And if any ratings agency dares suggest otherwise by downgrading our rating, we should sue them for libel.

________________________________________________________________________________________

CHERFUL,
We must stand up to those who dare criticise us when children are abused in our detention centres! How dare they verbally infringe our sovereignty! Having a PM strong enough to ignore them is far more important than human rights!

Seriously, I'm surprised anyone still thinks like that.

Aidan, *if/when* the desertification is reversed, *then* we can talk about how many more people can live there.
If, when, then.

"but there's a huge amount of Australia that's not desert."

And that's just wasted land?
It's farmland, it's natural habitats, it's difficult terrain (which is why it's not been developed in 2 centuries of modern settlement).

All the obvious development opportunities have already been done.

Why do you presume Aborigines are pro-immigration?
Because they're included in the leftist "rainbow" (whether they like it or not)?

Free trade makes great sense for countries on the same level of development or in close proximity with minimal transportation costs (e.g. within the European Union).

Not so great for Australia.

Geographically isolated, a small local market that could never compete with cheap plentiful Asian labour and one of only two highly developed nations on our side of the planet (the other, NZ, being even more isolated and smaller than us! How does free trade help them?!)

Hi Shockadelic,

Australia is the driest continent: we probably have no idea really what wet looks like. And Australia's soils often are very poor. But on the other hand, with water, they seem to be growing almost everything around Alice Springs, which might give it some reason for existing.

As for Aboriginal people's attitudes to migrants, I've rarely (if ever) heard anything positive spoken about refugees or migration or non-Indigenous minorities in other countries. And more recently, the rare comments that I've heard from Aboriginal people about refugees have been mostly along the lines of "Send all the b@stards back, we don't want them here."

Living on the mission back in the eighties, the standard term for the Greeks and Italians in the area was, of course, 'wog'. Sometimes 'dago'. Rarely 'Italian' or 'Greek'. Even now, come to think of it.

During the coups in Fiji in 1987 or so, the only comments I heard from Aboriginal people were incredibly racist ones in support of the Fijian reactionaries, not one comment in support of the democratic rights of the Indian minority (and yes, it WAS in the minority in 1987, and had been since about 1970: now Indians make up barely a quarter of Fiji's population).

Are the relations between Indigenous groups and migrant groups healthy and mutually supportive, such as with Samoans and Tongans in Brisbane, Indonesians in Perth, Sudanese in Darwin, and as in earlier times, Italians and Greeks around the country ? Do migrants and refugees get harassed anywhere by Indigenous people, especially the more visible they are, such as Africans ?

If you are there, dear reader, you would know much more than the rest of us.

Joe

Having worked amongst several Aboriginal groups over several years, I would have to agree with you Loudmouth. They are without a doubt some of the most racist people I have ever met!
I remember thinking on many occasions that they seemed to dislike other races even more than the ones of European origin.

Several years ago, I had to take one couple to hospital, after the husband broke all his wife's fingers, and when the doctor came out to call her in for assessment she yelled out loudly that she wasn't having no Chinese bloke touch her!
I just wanted to hide under my chair, I was so embarrassed.

This was just one of many such occasions. Possibly though, I think they seemed to hate members of rival Aboriginal families more than anyone else anyway.
I often wanted to ask why they didn't even consider the fact that many of them obviously had European ancestry, so why did they not embrace that side of their history as well?
I was too chicken to ask though....

Ahh yes Suzie, it was that question that got Andrew Bolt into such
a lot of trouble, that he confused grandfather with great grandfather
was becide the point for the politically correct.

Hi Suse,

Sounds like that bloke didn't even like his wife much either :)

I worked on three Royal Commission transcripts concerning the Native Police in Queensland, around 1860. It had white officers, but roughly six to one were Aboriginal police. They seemed to be recruited from that region around the lower Darling, Murray and Murrumbidgee, and some from the Barwon and Namoi.

Somebody proposed to me recently that traditionally, Aboriginal people were actually quite anarchistic, each person for themselves. I'm still thinking that through, and also the nature of herding cats.

Certainly, in almost all the reports etc. that I've been transcribing and indexing, there are plenty of references of people just taking off, pleasing themselves, coming and going, men selling their women for grog and tobacco at the drop of a hat, women casually neglecting their young children and old women.

But it reminds me of a saying in some other part of the world:

* Our country against the world;

* Our region against every other region in the country;

* Our tribe against every other tribe in our region;

* Our clan against every other clan in the tribe;

* Our family against every other family in the clan;

* My siblings against our father;

* Younger siblings against the eldest siblings;

* Me against all of them.

In such circumstances, friendships are temporary alliances; marriages are very much for keeping the peace between families or clans; the assumed knowledge, and the power to brutally harm, held by the elders, is about all there is to keep people in line.

But they do have such lovely, quaint art, don't they ?

Joe

Suse,

On that sensitive topic of identifying: many Aboriginal people may be as pale as whitefellas, but would never have known of any white ancestors, or even relations, going back five or six generations. There used to be a ironic slogan: "Organise a family reunion - invite your white relations."

People tend to be raised of course by their mothers, who in turn ...... so you might have to go back quite a few generations to find the missing whitefellas, and not too many of those hung around for long. And there were what they used to call quarter-castes around the lower Murray lakes from about 1860, many generations ago.

So aspects of the original culture, or ethic, may be passed down by mothers generation to generation, without a whitefella in sight. You can see that, in those circumstances, nobody is going to be raised with any European 'culture' or ethic or anything except skin colour.

In my own kids' cases, when I put it down on paper, they would probably be something like what they use to call octoroons, but I guess I'm the first whitefella that hung around, the first one that the family knew actually.

So Bolt might have got it right with some people, but wrong with very many: it is possible to be very 'Aboriginal' even if one is very pale. Of course, I'm talking here about people who have known since birth, that they have always taken their Aboriginality for granted, that they have never known any other story, that they didn't discover at 14, or 35, that somewhere way back there, they had a bit of Aboriginal ancestry.

In fact, the people I'm talking about are less likely to grab those top positions: their ethic has 'taught' them to hang back, while the ethic of the others, raised a whitefellas, has taught them to go for it. And it's those who, I suspect, Bolt had in mind.

Joe

Aidan, the reason say we need to find the bottom is so that we can start afresh which will invove wiping the slate on issues like welfare and indigenous welfare.

If we have nothing to give any more we will be forced to take drastic action because as it stands now everyone is fearful of stepping on toes which is no way to run a country that's heading south, and like it or not, we are heading south.

As for taxing spendings, a transaction tax, this tax, suggested at just 2% could replace every wither tax we have, effectively injecting billions into the economy every year. We have to tax money, not people, because we can only tax people's net earnings once and it's quite obvious that's no longer working.

Yes, I see what you mean Loudmouth. I never thought of it that way before.

Maybe the Aboriginal way of calling themselves after their mother's side of the family is a better way to go. At least, most of the time, you know who your mother is!

Rehctub, what is it with you? Always the voice of doom!

rehctub, what you regard as "wiping the slate clean" is no such thing, for not only does it fail to get rid of the underlying problems, but it destroys a lot of the progress that's been made addressing them. Evolutionary change is normally much better than revolutionary change.

Rather than taking drastic action, we should concentrate on improving our productivity.

What you think is obvious is actually an illusion. In reality taxing people's earnings is actually working very well.

The transaction tax was a rather stupid idea from Pauline Hanson's party. It failed to recognise that people and businesses would change their behaviour to avoid the tax.

As I said to Rhosty on the "No financial claims scheme levy..." thread:
Stupidity's rarely in short supply among economists, but very few were dumb enough to support the PHONy Party's 2% transaction tax. Most correctly realised that it would destroy the financial sector (which relies on low margin transactions) and make businesses less competitive (due to the extra 2% cost of B2B transactions).

____________________________________________________________________________________

Shockadelic,

Things should be done in parallel rather than sequentially. And whether, when and how quickly desertification is reversed usually depends on the actions of individual farmers (and in some cases conservation groups).

Most of the rest is low value farmland (mainly used for grazing).

I think it was SBS TV where I heard that Aborigines are more pro immigration than the general population, at least as far as refugees are concerned.

Free trade makes sense for everyone. By concentrating on high value work, we can compete with the cheap Asian labour. And if we couldn't, the market would devalue our dollar until we could. Such devaluation may sound bad, but at least it would help our exporters; tariffs would hit consumers just as hard but also hinder our exporters.

Aidan "It failed to recognise that people and businesses would change their behaviour to avoid the tax."

How exactly do you avoid making bank transactions?
Cash?
Who is going to take the risk of storing all their wealth as cash (encouraging robbery)?

Almost all salaries, stock trades, and government payments are paid electronically.
To then get cash requires a withdrawal (a transaction).

You could also legislate that certain transactions (e.g. any amount over $100) *must* be done electronically, making significant avoidance impossible.

The tax would not be an "extra" 2% if it replaces ALL other taxes.

Our economy and standard of living did more than fine under tariffs.

If our young nation had grown up under free trade, we wouldn't have the standard of living/development we have.

It's only because of those founding years under protectionism and imperial preference that we are so far ahead of Asia.

Japan also grew into the juggernaut it became with just a little help from Mr Tariff.

Global free trade is a religious faith, not a practical economic reality.

The only way to get a global "level" playing field is to reduce our living standards to the lowest common denominator Third World level.
No thanks.

Suzie said:
Rehctub, what is it with you? Always the voice of doom!

or the voice of reality ?

Suze, I hate doom and gloom, but do you honestly think we are in good shape?

It wasn't that long ago that you worked hard to better yourself, whereas now you work had to make life better or easier for someone else. Or, to support Rudds illegals.

As for the transaction tax, there is no reason B2B transaction can't be taxed at very small rates. Same goes for trades.

The trouble is that if we don't find a suitable tax system to replace the broken outdated one we have, doom will be closer than many think.

The first thing that a transaction tax would generate would be barter trading.
Only the profit would be deposited, not the whole receipted funds.

Shockadelic,
Cash is one way to avoid bank transactions. Offshoring is another. And a third way is simply to not make the transaction.

"Who is going to take the risk of storing all their wealth as cash (encouraging robbery)?"
Probably very few people, but a lot more people would take the risk of storing a lot more of their wealth as cash. And many people would store their wealth in foreign bank accounts.

"You could also legislate that certain transactions (e.g. any amount over $100) *must* be done electronically, making significant avoidance impossible."
An unwarranted restriction on our freedom, but easily dodged by splitting big transactions into multiple smaller ones.

"The tax would not be an "extra" 2% if it replaces ALL other taxes."
OK, there are some state taxes that are costs of doing business. So maybe an extra 1.9%, though of course it's a moot point because a 2% transactions tax wouldn't bring in anywhere near as much revenue as you think it would.

"Our economy and standard of living did more than fine under tariffs."
Despite them, not because of them.

"If our young nation had grown up under free trade, we wouldn't have the standard of living/development we have."
We'd probably have higher standards of living and development, though of course it'd depend on what other economic policies there had been. But can you think of any industry we now have that's still here because of the tariffs of the past?

"It's only because of those founding years under protectionism and imperial preference that we are so far ahead of Asia."
No, it's because of our better education and more automation.

Japan's success was more the result of being an early adopter of container shipping than anything to do with tariffs. Global free trade is an economic objective; nothing to do with religion. And we're far more productive than "third world level" so why do you assume that our living standards would fall so much?

ehctub,
"As for the transaction tax, there is no reason B2B transaction can't be taxed at very small rates. Same goes for trades."
It'd still be an extra cost on business, and at very small rates it couldn't raise sufficient revenue even in theory.

What do you think is broken and outdated about the tax system we have?

What do you think is broken and outdated about the tax system we have?

Firstly, the GST is only paid by the end user, as the majority of businesses get their tax back. This is very unfair as many of the end users have already paid income tax, so are in effect paying tax on their spending with after tax dollars.

The other issue is that of taxes paid by business as they then claim it back.which leaves the system wide open to avoidance.

A TTtaxes money nit earnings and considering the same $100 is spent over and over again, a small TT will collect tax every time, including for the likes of off shore accounts and profit sharing. It should also open the way for changes to negative gearing.

By taxing people's money by just 2% would mean hundreds of dollars extra for most to spend n a weekly basis.

However, as I have soften said, why not use a natural disaster to test the water on a finavia, transaction tax, as a tax of just 0.5% could be colleges, used for this type of on off funding and would not break the bank for most. However, if you truly believe our current tax system is not collapsing then you're on a different planet to me so it's pointless debating it.

"Offshoring is another.""store their wealth in foreign bank accounts."

That is a choice that can be made under *any* tax system.

You still need to make an Australian transaction whenever you want to buy/sell something *here*, which is *most* personal and business transactions.
You will also pay a currency conversion bank fee (commonly 3%!)
You can't order your groceries from Taiwan, rent a DVD from Japan or fill your fuel tank in Hong Kong.

"An unwarranted restriction on our freedom"

Pur-lease.
All taxation is a "restriction on freedom".
Grow up.

"some state taxes that are costs of doing business."

I believe the proposal was the transaction tax would replace ALL taxes, including company and income tax.

"splitting big transactions into multiple smaller ones."

A headache.
And only when possible or the avoidance offsets any disadvantage (e.g. you can often get free shipping with large orders but not small ones).

"2% transactions tax wouldn't bring in anywhere near as much revenue as you think it would"

Millions are transacted on the stock exchange every day.
And only capital *gains* are currently taxed.

Same with million dollar real estate sales.
Try legally splitting that house into smaller bits (or buying an Australian home from Singapore!).

"nothing to do with religion"

I said it *is* a religion.
And you are speaking in tongues.

rehctub,
Firstly, apologies for omitting the r from your name last time.

Secondly, your reasons for opposing the existing tax system are rather ill thought out IMO. Many people would regard having all our taxes on one thing as more unfair than having a range of different taxes. And having business spending exempt from GST is a deliberate attempt to keep our businesses competitive by keeping their costs down. You don't seem to care about keeping business costs down.

Having said that, I don't regard the status quo as ideal, and I'd like to see the GST abolished and a broad based land tax applied.

A natural disaster would be an idiotic time to try imposing a tax that, even at half a percent, would devastate the economy. But if your interested in finding out why your tax wouldn't work, just look at who would pay how much, and would what they're doing still be profitable if they're paying so much tax.

BTW I notice you posted no evidence whatsoever that even suggests our current tax system is collapsing.

Shockadelic,
"That is a choice that can be made under *any* tax system."

Yes it is. But a transactions tax would give them much more incentive to do so. In much of the financial sector it'd become a necessity rather than a choice.

"You can't order your groceries from Taiwan, rent a DVD from Japan or fill your fuel tank in Hong Kong."
Not a physical DVD, but you can certainly stream a movie from Japan.

But more to the point, it's some (not all) of the transactions that don't currently attract tax that are at greatest risk of offshoring when one is imposed.

"Pur-lease.
All taxation is a 'restriction on freedom'.
Grow up."
So you're saying that because some restrictions on our freedom are needed, we should accept all restrictions on our freedom?

"Millions are transacted on the stock exchange every day."
And YOUR TAX WOULD PREVENT MOST OF THEM OCCURRING because it would make them unprofitable.

"I said it *is* a religion."
Yes, you're using the disgraceful Republican Party strategy of calling something a religion to make it sound irrational to atheists and evil to Christians. But it's not a religion and you should be ashamed of yourself for making that deplorable claim.

"it's some (not all) of the transactions that don't currently attract tax that are at greatest risk of offshoring"

Aidan, there isn't ANYTHING economic/financial that isn't currently taxed in one way or another.
A single simple tax is just a much easier way to do it.

There are few things that can truly be "offshored" as most goods and services must be produced and consumed locally.
"Offshored" goods still need to be imported to be sold, and are then taxed.

And you avoid addressing the currency conversion issue.
Not so clever to pay a 3% conversion fee to avoid a 2% tax. DOH!

Land tax?
Land values are hypothetical. Transactions are actual.
Land really only has "value" when actually bought or sold, which would be taxed under a transaction tax.

"So you're saying that because some restrictions on our freedom are needed, we should accept all restrictions on our freedom?"

You really are the King Of The Strawmen.

There are practical realities that must be worked out some way or another.
We must drive on one side of the road. This necessarily "restricts freedom", but it is a practical, useful restriction.

We must tax, if we are to fund the public goods people expect.
It's just a matter of how.
There is no perfect, 100% "fair" way.
But one simple tax is the *easiest* way.

"And YOUR TAX WOULD PREVENT MOST OF THEM OCCURRING because it would make them unprofitable."

Your land tax would also discourage "investment".

The stock exchange is just a gambling casino for 99% of the "players" (BTW gambling is also currently tax-exempt, but not with transactions taxed).

Those "players" though are NOT going to be paying 30% tax on their profits.
They may be forced to make wiser choices, but there will still be opportunities for the eagle-eyed.

"you should be ashamed of yourself for making that deplorable claim."

Off with my head!

Faux outrage from the King.
Yawn.

Aiden the only evidence you need is that our taxes no longer pay the bills. What more evidence do you need.

As for a TT hurting, how can $2 per every $100 hurt?

The other problem I have is that less than 3 in every 10 actually pay real tax. This is a huge problem because we have too many hanger oners.

rehctub,
It's very misleading to clam the taxes no longer pay the bills. We're in the stage of the economic cycle where it's almost inevitable that the government runs a deficit, and it's economically irresponsible to even try to get back into surplus right now. But as we advance in the economic cycle, we're likely to get back into surplus quite easily. Though even if we weren't, the bills would still get paid.

"As for a TT hurting, how can $2 per every $100 hurt?"
Isn't it obvious? Turnover is always higher than profit, sometimes much higher. And taxing turnover makes it harder to even make a profit.

"The other problem I have is that less than 3 in every 10 actually pay real tax. This is a huge problem because we have too many hanger ones."
Why? Why shouldn't the taxes be paid at the time the people are making money? Surely you're not assuming the others never pay tax?

_____________________________________________________________________________________

Shockadelic,
"'Offshored' goods still need to be imported to be sold, and are then taxed."
Increasingly they're being sold before they're imported.

"And you avoid addressing the currency conversion issue.
Not so clever to pay a 3% conversion fee to avoid a 2% tax. DOH!"
But banks aren't paying a 3% conversion fee. Also it means when someone earns money in a foreign currency, they'd keep it in that currency rather than converting it to Australian dollars.

"You really are the King Of The Strawmen."
What, for rephrasing your argument in a way that highlights its stupidity?

"But one simple tax is the *easiest* way."
The easiest way to bankrupt businesses and raise much less revenue than you think it would.

"Your land tax would also discourage 'investment'."
It would discourage the kind of investment that does nothing to improve productivity. It would slow the increase of land prices, ultimately making houses more affordable.

"The stock exchange is just a gambling casino for 99% of the 'players'"
But it's quite an efficient way of translating speculation into real production.

"Increasingly they're being sold before they're imported."

It doesn't matter, smartypants.
If the sale was WITHIN Australia it would be taxed.
Are you honestly suggesting most businesses would use offshore accounts to pay *each other* back and forth?

And what of their end user/customer? Are they using foreign accounts too? Ludicrous!

If money is sent to or from an Australian account it would be taxed.
If the money is sent to or from a foreign account there would be a conversion fee.
There is NO WAY to avoid paying some fee or tax.

And "offshoring" still does not evade/avoid tax altogether.
You would still need to pay tax in that other country.
Is that going to be lower?

And what of companies offshored in different countries (e.g. Singapore and India).
Again you need *conversions* whenever payments are made.
Conversion = fee.

In all likelihood, the simplicity of transaction taxes means it will probably become a universal standard one day.
There will be nowhere you can go to avoid it.

"But banks aren't paying a 3% conversion fee."

No the customer/account holder is, smartypants.

"Also it means when someone earns money in a foreign currency, they'd keep it in that currency rather than converting it to Australian dollars."

Not if they must buy or sell WITHIN Australia.
We are talking about businesses trading and customers buying WITHIN Australia.
The moment you do that, a conversion must occur.
Conversion = fee higher than the tax!

"What, for rephrasing your argument in a way that highlights its stupidity?"

No for the ludicrously hyperbolic exaggeration of "*all* freedom restricted".
That's not a "rephrasing", smartypants.

"It [land tax] would discourage the kind of investment that does nothing to improve productivity."

And gambling on the stock exchange is "productive"? Like hell.

You seem to have concreted your opinion about this purely because Pauline Hanson supported it.
She also supports breathing.

FYI: Heard on radio this morning.

There is legislation to be brought into parliament next week that will
enable the government to estimate the tax evaded and charge it plus interest.

Shocker said:
You would still need to pay tax in that other country.
Is that going to be lower?

Yes it is, that is why they do it !

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