Since the Libs came to power they have been obsessed with cutting back on spending and putting us back in the black. Recently the media has shone a light on just how some large corporations are dodging their tax responsibilities, but still the government refuses to address the problem and rather than hardening our tax laws and chasing after the these companies they are chasing nickels and dimes from mum and dad, I'm wondering why - coruption?
Could it be the Libs have something to gain by not chasing these companies? Considering the $ numbers we are talking about, if the Libs were harden our tax laws and chase these companies we could be back in the black in very short order and mum and dad would be far better off.
Labour was no different, it is a long standing problem.

You admit that Labor was "no different", so why bring it up now. If neither of the major parties will not do thing about it, that's that. Labor is talking about it at the moment only to discredit the government - even though Labor was "no different" when they had the chance; and the government will not even comment. We've been through this recently. Discussion by us plebs is a total waste of time. It's all part of the global/multinational business enthusiasm that all politicians are part of.

I believe it's a case of coercion.

The corporations in question are mostly American and Uncle Sam would not be happy if anyone tries to touch them.

Until we have nuclear and biological weapons of our own, we will remain a colony of America and never be allowed to say 'No'.

Well personally I enjoy discussing such topics, if I didn't I wouldn't bother posting. That of course brings us to you ttbn, if you don't then why bother posting - not making a lot of sense there!

The corporations aren't all American, there are a lot of Australian companies with offshore offices and of course Ikea. I'm no fan of America but America is but one player in this area, no sense in blaming them, it is our successive governments who are dodging the issue.

Only by discussing such issues and keeping them in the spotlight can we hope to bring about change, saying there is nothing we can do about it is just lame!

toglhot,

A. I haven't seen you posting before and you might not have seen previous discussions.

B. It is most unlikely that anything will be done about the situation; certainly not at the behest of anonymous posters. It is, therefore futile.

C. Discussion is also futile because the average person would not benefit in the slightest if politicians did decide to tax multinationals. Politicians can never have enough money to spend. Nothing would change as far as we are concerned. We would still be taxed, and the multinational's tax would be BLOWN just as our taxes are. Pollies cannot stop spending.

D. If the hard word was put on the multinationals to pay more tax, they would simply move to Ireland where company rates are much lower. EXIT MORE AUSTRALIAN JOBS. Australia already is increasingly becoming an unattractive place to do business, thanks to red tape and high wages. Neither party wants to lose any more commerce than they have already.

Are you saying if a subject has been discussed before you should never discuss it again - what an interesting way of looking things:

That aside, your still not making a lot of sense, if it's futile to discuss it, why are you discussing it?

I think you are missing the point, these companies have already moved offshore to places like Ireland - that's why they aren't paying tax!

Finally, on your logic, little people can't change anything so they shouldn't try - again, what an interesting way of looking at things.

Perhaps you should move on to a topic this isn't so futile!

You are being deliberately obtuse, or you are naturally thick.

Toglhot, we have to look at the big picture when it comes to how much multinationals pay in tax, because apart from their taxes, we have the enormous amount of taxes the create, both directly, through PAYG as well as payroll taxes and indirect taxes such as those generated from businesses enguaged by the multinationals and, given we are a ridiculously expensive nation to operate in and taxes are just one of the costs associated with doing business here. If the numbers don't add up, they leave. Point in case, our car industries.

I also note nobody is targeting people like Hugh Jackman or Paul Hogan as they left her because our tax systm is a joke, where the more one contributes the more they pay in taxes, to assist those who choose not to. So be careful what you wish for there because if you're one of the 76odd % who rely on the top end for financial, assistance, this will also be at risk.

As for the libs not spending, where do you think we would be now had the brakes not been put on and, much of the libs spending is due to unsustainable commitments made by Labor.

Sorry to inform you but we are in a race to the bottom.

With plummeting opinion polls, the increasingly desperate Abbott government appears to be launching into a vote buying exercise. Despite the doom and gloom merchants belief that fiscal responsibility can only be achieved through a budgetary surplus without a despised deficit, that is why they voted for Abbott last time around. Some will accuse 'Cocky' Joe Hockey of throwing fiscal responsibility out the window with Mondays speech "The Economic Case for Personal Income Tax Cuts", Hockey wants to take income tax cuts for voters to the next election, but at the same time he fails to say how spending would be reduced, or if other taxes such as the GST would need to increase. The skeptic in me says without any real details, this is nothing more than a desperate attempt at vote buying, by an equally desperate government, staring defeat in the face

*by an equally desperate government, staring defeat in the face*

Music to my ears and solace for my brain. All we need now is a new Labour leader of the calibre of Jeremy Corbyn in the UK, who they are all scared of over there.
Too much to ask for here though, going by the quality of the posts.

Well unfortunately our politicians are very short sighted, interested only in returning to power, we see this in every government as they lurch toward election time, people have short memories and nonsensical promises offering them nickels and dimes usually win them over.

Everyone who does business in Australia has a responsibility to pay their fair share of taxes and the government has the responsibility to ensure that they do so. Taking steps to ensure these large organisations pay their taxes will not force them out of Australia, they will still do business here as they do in every other 'over taxed' country around the world. The Australian government, by not hardening our taxation system simply makes it harder on us and gives the large organisations bigger profit margins.

Holden and Ford are not shutting down operations in Australia because of tax concerns, they are shutting down because their product is no longer a viable proposition. Continuing to produce vehicles that the public no longer want is a recipe for disaster. Sales of Falcon and Commodore have been declining for many, many years, but Holden and Ford failed to see the writing on the wall and kept producing these vehicles, vehicles that simply weren't selling in enough numbers to make them viable.

ttbn, not being obtuse or thick, I just don't understand why you would want to participate in a topic you consider a waste of time - please explain.

Things do seem to be changing. Hockey has put Tax Dept accountants into
suspect companies offices to see what they are doing.
BHP & Rio Tinto are two suspects who sell their iron ore to Singapore
companies, owned by themselves, at cheap prices and then sell it onto China at the market price.
Singapore made a deal with them for low taxes.
What we should do is put a high tariff on anything they sell to us and
then legislate a special tax on those companies.

It is not just Australia that is stirring that pot, the UK has recently
introduced legislation on the same problem.

Baz are you thinking of a mining tax or at tax by another name. What ever way it is Tony would prefer miners paid no tax at all. You are going against your liberal mates saying such a ridiculous thing in open company.

We are still waiting for the carbon tax money we were going to get, which no one can find. Not even Hockey can come up with an answer, and that is beyond belief.

The carbon tax money did not exist: because the money was paid from the company's that generated electricity, and they did not get any moneys to cover it. To the generators the carbon tax money was a dead loss to them. That is why we were never going to get any money from deleting the carbon tax.

Retail electricity was jacked up and blamed on the carbon tax, which was no more than a rise for the retailers, as no money was forwarded to the generators. The wholesale price for electricity is no different today than it was 10 years ago.

By deleting the carbon tax Abbott gave the electricity generators a pay rise of 6 billion $.

Doog the carbon tax was a ridiculous tax as all it did was tax those who could just pass it on. The consumer should be the one paying the tax not the generator (with the exception to exporters) as this would have reduced production immediately.

Sooner or later we will see a transaction tax but until then we will continue being a dog it's tail.

If we go back 14 years ago the GST was a huge winfal whereas now it's outdated and any increase will just be outgrown again.

since the abolition of the carbon tax emissions have continually risen,while electricity demand has fallen.

The generators are the ones causing the pollution, that is why they were paying the carbon tax. The consumer did not pay any carbon tax that is why the carbon tax money that was supposed to come off the power bill did not exist.

Read it properly

Hockey has trouble finding his cigars, he really doesn't have much of a clue, remember 'Poor people don't drive cars'! Of course we could all follow his advice and get a 'good job' that pays well, trouble is who would sell Joe his cigars.

Politicians are so ridiculously well paid they have lost sight of the reality that is everyday life. It's often said they are poorly paid by private sector standards, trouble is if our politicians pay was based on performance they'd be living below the poverty line and dare I say it - speaking greek!

doog, no I am not confusing it with the mining tax.
I am talking about the income from the sale of iron ore.
You should follow these things more closely.

Tell me, how do you know that Tony would prefer miners pay no tax ?
Or is just one of your fantasies ?
I notice that many of the strongly Labour posters on here say things
like that with absolutely no proof at all. Some things written are
really outrageously away with the fairies.

I think I will start collecting such statements, it will probably
make a good laugh.

Baz Abbott eliminated the mining tax, you know the one that did not make any money. Once iron ore has left AU how are you going to get more money for it. Seeing you are not talking about a mining tax how are you proposing to do that.

Miners going through Singapore is a sham. A way of enhancing profits without AU having any control over what we get for our iron ore. It’s an an allowable fraud sanctioned by Abbott. Australia only sees a fraction of what the miners get for our iron ore.

If the miners are looking for somewhere to stockpile iron ore I am sure we could have found somewhere here to do that without bothering Singapore. It shows you that iron ore miners are smarter than Abbott. Abbott says China buys our iron ore. So who buyes Singapores iron ore, China again.

Our govt; is a charity govt; with no business sence

doog, I Just explained it to you. The ships do not go to Singapore,
just the money does.

Forget it, is pointless.

Bazz, in the 1970's I worked for a large manufacturing company whereby raw material mined in Australia by Company 'A' was on sold to Company 'B' in Singapore at $90/ton then Singapore on sold the material back to the manufacturing company in Australia at $300/ton. All were owned by the parent company through a network of shelf companies, of course the material itself never left Australia. All profits were made in low tax Singapore.

Talking of the Australian steel industry, BlueScope (BHP) is looking at shedding 500 jobs minimum at Port Kembla, with a possible total shutdown seeing 5,000 job lost in the Illawarra alone, a very much "employment challenged" region as it is. A total shutdown is a possibility and would be a disaster for both the Illawrra and Australia as a whole.
The problem has much to do with a massive decline in world steel prices as China now producing 50% of the worlds product, 800 million tonnes annually, is engaged in dumping all over the planet, including in Australia. The Abbott government fines itself between a rock and a hard place on this, not wanting to offend China with tariffs, free trade and all that, its policy of no financial assistance leaves very little Abbott can do to retrieve the situation.

So Paul, given BHP are finding our employment conditions unviable, do you still think they should be taxed at 30 cents in the dollar?

Those opposed to profit shifting don't seem to realize the difficulties experienced by multinationals here with our over the top working conditions, not sure if that includes you Paul, but surely people can u deratamd there is a bigger picture here and just wanting more tax may cause a mass pull out from Australia. Then what!

Of cause just like the mining and carbon taxes did, talk of this crackdown can do irreparable damage to business confidence which in turn could see big business look elsewhere.

Personally I'm happy so at least have something and woukd be even happier with a fairer tax system but I think we have to wait until we hit rock bottom first. Perhaps that's what needs to happen and I have no doubt if labor gets back in we will find it this time around.

At least then, once we find rock bottom we can bring out the big stick and start again.

doog, glad to see you now understand what I said.

I once worked for a computer company that imported spare parts which
as I had the job of organising parts stocks I realised that I could
order at a fraction of the cost locally.
However I was ordered, by an embarrassed boss, to order from the
parent company at the much higher price.
This is known as transfer pricing.

The statement that the government does not want to do anything about
this practice is another example of the fanatical Labour supporter
statements as there is a program to introduce legislation after the
embedded accountants report on how it is done.
Also you must have seen that there is an international program to
stop such practices, unless you don't want to know.

No one is saying the ships go to Singapore, Big Joe is waiting to hear how you are going to extract more money out of miners without a big new tax.

It’s a legal scam, should not have happened. Why does not Abbott put them in court to find out why they can do that.
There is no big stick, Coal and iron ore should be nationalized that is the only way you are going to get any remuneration from mining. The big miners have every trick in the book and some not even thought of yet.

Get rid of Abbott would be a good start, this govt; has failed miserably. With 100 billion added to the debt burden in 2 years which is an all-time record and another budget to go, it does not say to much for Hockeys accounting skills.

Turnbull would be a far better pm than Abbott would ever be.

Hockey can only talk about a republic, that is of more importance to Big Joe.

Well *doog* I wouldn't be too hard just yet visa vi Joe's interest in a Republic, as he may well in part be thinking very much about tax. I don't know that he is of course, but he may be.

Reason being of course is that in moving to a Republic we do have the opportunity to fundamentally reform and or do away with the present constitution in its entirety.

And of course, the con does form the back bone of tax ie what states can do and what the comm can do (amongst other things)

Maybe Joe is musing about moving to something for more grand and far more appropriate for our present age in one fell swoop. And even if he is not, a move to a Republic could be far more than just say replacing the current head of state with the guvna general.

There is way too much doubling handling and gross waste and mismanagement in the present system of states and commonwealth, whereas we could move to a far more modern, effective and efficient model.

So Bazz the million dollar question is, had it not been fir the arrangement with the parent company, would the company you worked for even have existed.

It would appear not if going by the recent concerns being aired by economists about the decline in business investment and who can blame them as they already work in a ridiculously expensive environment and they are no doubt taking note of the talk of the witch hunt, along with carbon tax No2 and a possible rebirth of the very unreasonable mining tax.

Dream on, bring on a republic I say if that's what's needed to replace our out dated tax system, along with several other issues that need to go back to the drawing board.

With the current tax system whereby the more one contributes the less they receive in the end is going to have quite a few defectors one would imagine because no one seems willing to introduce real tax reform or address serious issues like welfare and indigenous waste.

Big Joe was talking out of line, he had no authority to speak. Did you see his timeline about 20 years to accomplish a republic.

The miners going through Singapore is no more than a tax dodge. How else do you explain it. The less profit they show here is the less tax payable. Singapore’s tax rate is far less than in Australia. And that profit money never comes to Australia.

The grounds of that scam is enough to take national control of iron ore mining, no doubt coal has similar schemes.

You have no hope of tax reform with a conservative govt;. they can’t even make a move in that direction. Their only effort at doing something about tax was to further the tax burden on the workers.

And now we are in election mode they say tax relief is in order for the workers.

The miners in an expensive environment, so what has that got to do with us, they can pull up stumps anytime they like and not return.

The environment is hardly right at the moment for tax cuts. Abbott promised 1 million jobs, and where are we. This govt; has no idea of how to stimulate the economy to get employment in good shape.

100 Billion $ on the debt and unemployment in free fall. An all-time record. We need an election to clear the air and get things moving, Business and consumers are in a state of waiting for an election.

Before the last election investment was around 60 % of GDP and now investment has hit rock bottom. No one trusts Abbott.

Doog, if an election was called soon I would most likely vote labor. Not because I support them, rather the op, but what I think we need is for labor to Finnish what they started, that's bring us to our knees because then we can throw the baby out, with the bath water, and start agin.

While we are in free fall, we don't know where the bottom is but I'm sure labor could find it, going on their past two failed attempts that is.

Rechtub, I see no connection between a republic and the tax system.
The company I worked for, which had a partial AWA shareholding, was
a UK computer company, so it continues still to today after mergers
in the UK. I doubt if the profit was much affected by spare parts costs.
I suspect that many commentators here and in parliament and the media
have the wrong cause for what is going on in the world economy.
Certainly Joe Hockey is right when he says that growth is the answer,
however he does not understand that growth is the problem.

Notice how worldwide all the talking heads are saying "we must increase growth".
The problem is they do not understand that we cannot increase growth.

Welcome to the zero growth world.
Read this, which is not about growth so much but the overall view;

http://www.resilience.org/stories/2015-08-27/deflationary-collapse-ahead

Rechub You stay with your conservative inmates, they need you in fact Abbott may just well have a job for you.

No matter what Labor done your opinion would not change, your ideals are brutal, and that will not change.

We can not have slave labour, not can we have a society dumbed down with martial law. Imagine what that idiotic plan would do for tourists in Victoria.
That is not the Australian way. We are for a fair and just govt; Not a govt; with out scruples, we need a middle of the road govt; that is fair and just to all, business and individuals alike.

This govt ; does not reflect that in fact this govt; does not have enough ambience to cast a shadow. We are in cars-ration, not being able to trust our govt;

Labor’s spending was not a patch on this govt; 100 billion in 2 years with another budget to go. Not being able to see some fault says heaps, and not in Australia’s interests.

Are we going to cruse and wind down time to the next election, I hope not the damage is enormous without further denigration.

Your fear of Labor is unfounded, when the chips are down Labor comes to power, even in war.

Bazz No one has a Chrystal ball, any talk of the end to growth is conjecture, and best left to conspiracy believers.

World economy has got little to do with company’s as they say [ maximizing tax ] it is just another way of Tax dodging.

Selling to a foreign country to transfer the goods on to the eventual buyer, for the purpose of minimizing tax, is tax dodging from the country supplying the goods.

The third party in a foreign country gets the biggest part of profit and the supplying country gets the smallest part of the profit. That is a racket, and should be stopped now, or forfeiture of their rights to mine in this country.

No doog, the conspiracy crowd do not understand either.
It is all a matter of energy, nothing more nothing less.
Nothing happens without energy being expended.
When you cannot increase energy you cannot increase GDP.
No increase in GDP, no repayment of debt plus interest.

Have you not noticed how all countries are worried about their growth ?
Europe has almost zero growth and some in EU are in contraction.
Even China is winding down, their 7% is known to be BS as their
electricity consumption rate of increase fall has shown.

No one in Canberra understands this. I think Martin Ferguson understood
and also Barnaby Joyce I am fairly certain understands but cannot
say so because it is the political mantra by all of them that growth
is the way ahead. Straight into the bit bucket !

So much talk of "tax dodging."

Better to delineate and refer to:

1. Tax evasion (which is criminal/unlawful)
2. Tax avoidance (which is lawful/smart business)

But then so much of the law is completely amoral.

What we can say is that the system is unfair and in need of reform.

However, how often do we hear it said that right across the Western World, less than 10% of the people control more than 90% of the wealth?

Thus, even more important than tax reform, what needs to be done is a far wider legal review to establish how it is that the rules allow such fundamental inequities and entrenched disadvantage to deveope and what maintains it.

And then on that basis, when Hockey comes out and says it is unfair that the top echelon of income earners have to pay such a disproportionately large amount of tax compared to everyone else then the flag really needs to go up, as after all, if that same top echelon has the lions share of wealth, then what is wrong with them having to pay the lions' share of tax as well?

What is the difference between Tax avoidance , and tax evasion.

Baz The only thing wrong here is no one trusts the govt; no one is spending money. What rules do you follow to have negative growth, the answer is you follow Abbott’s rules.
China was in a hurry to build things that they could neither afford or the people could not afford to rent. All to get countries into changing to China to be the world bankers. And now the Chinese market is in correction mode, they will get over it in time.

*Doog*

Avoidance is quite lawful. Evasion is not.

Perhaps another example *Doog* to clarify for you:

Avoidance:

Say in the case of a child Care Worker who would normally have to pay PAYG tax of about $4,000 in a year. However, before end of tax year, this individual purchases eligible clothing for work purposes of about $1,000 (nice professional outfits) which is a deduction for tax purposes

and to "avoid" the other $3,000 she pays $500 in tax advice which in turn informs her as to the amount of money she would have to salary sacrifice to her super thus reducing her gross income for tax purposes and resulting in a siutation where this person does not have to pay any tax but rather receives back from the tax department a refund for her clothes and the advice she received (which included the cost of doing her tax return)

Evasion:

could be for example a business receives income receipts of $25,000 and unreceipted cash payments of another $25,000.

In reality this business has a gross income for tax purposes of $50,000 but come tax time this business only declares $25,000 on their tax return and keeps the other $25,000 in cash under the bed in a floor safe.

Comprende?

........Your fear of Labor is unfounded, when the chips are down Labor comes to power, even in war.

Well the Chips were not down when the Kevin 07 Show came to town, along with his union thugs, but they were certainly down some six years latter.

We went from zero debt and some 20 billion in the bank to hundreds of billions in debt and a trail as long as the eye could see of failures from the insulation debacle to illegals costing billions of future tax dollars, in fact my grandson who is not even two yet will still be feeling the pain I recon, yet you blame the Abbott government for everything. The one thing about history is that the facts don't lie and no amount of blame shifting can change that. The Rudd Gillard Rudd era undid everything Howard and Costelo achieved in a matter of months and although I was against the sale of Testra, this was brought about by the second worst labor government in my life time.

So that's why I say let them back in so we can at least find the bottom as I doubt there is anyone better for that job.

doog, the reason, and I am sure you know, that the govt debt increase
was because Labour set up expenditure that could not be avoided and
blocked in the senate legislation intended to cut back expenditure.
Now you MUST know this unless you have been in a coma for a couple of years.
$80 billion of it was because the govt returned to the Reserve Bank
the money they had previously used to support the A$. That money was
removed from the RBA by Wayne Swan of Bail In fame when he was
scrambling for a surplus. Anyway it is still the governments money,
so it is not spent.

Many Labour supporters seem to think the rest of us forget these things.
Look, I am well aware that the Lib/Nat government is not perfect and
indeed they are completely clueless on what is going on with the economy.
Even when government organisations tell them that they are heading
for a disaster, eg BIER report 117 was removed from the government
web site by the Labour government because they could not let the
people know what is the state and situation of our energy resources.
The present government will not release it either.

The conservative mantra as usual "blame Labor", nothing new in that. What the conservatives wont admit is their government has proved itself to be economically incompetent, with its first budget a disaster, its second budget was only marginally better, but failed to deliver desirable economic outcomes.
What is the Abbott/Hockey future plan? When it comes to the economy, they simply do not have one. Sorry, yes they do "blame Labor" but that is wearing rather thin. The governments economic incompetence has seen a massive decline in revenue, whilst expenditure has continued to accelerate. Yet Cocky Joe only last week was touting his vote buying tax cuts, does anyone think such a move without the necessary expenditure and/or revenue adjustments is economically responsible?

Baz the figure you stated is suffering from inflation, the number was 8 billion not 80.

The more these blokes live in past history the more it turns people off. Todays govt; is not mentioned .

All govt; have forward estimates, that is required by parliamentary rules. Rechtub lives in a fantasy world, and avoids Abbott’s 100 billion $ expense account at all costs
.
Tax avoidance and tax evasion as against tax dodging. Seeing the iron ore miners situation does not comply with the first two scenario it is tax dodging. Selling to a third party in a foreign land for the purpose of dodging tax. This has got to be an offence against the supplying country of goods. If it is not it should be. Australians are under the impression we sell iron ore to China

So doog, what you're sayingnis that the ore miners should pay 30cent in the dollar on every dollar profit, as well as pay huge IR costs, royalties, as well as pay roll tax etc etc then, from what's left retain 12% on their investment then pay another 40 cents in the dollar by way of a mining tax. Yea right!

Get a grip, these businesses pay huge costs to do business here, generate billions in taxes but you want more.

Keep pushing and you will soon see what I mean, that's if it's not already too late as big business has literally shut up shoo here now.

Bhp make Billions in profit. if they can not survive from that well leave the mineral in the ground. [Nationalise iron ore mining ]

You are saying a deliberate tax dodge is ok. That does not make any sense at all. Our iron ore can only be sold once, we should not be in the business of giving it away.

It is the richest iron ore in the world, which means less work per ton to extract the good stuff from the dirt.

No tax dodge is ok, you are not talking good sense for condoning such practice.

Abbott, Araldite and dynamite
Disposing of a prime minister is not something that should be undertaken lightly. It should only occur when it is determined the people have stopped listening. When that happens to a political leader, they may as well pack up and go home

What I love is these wild and woolly brain farts from the left whingers. These vast rivers of gold to be mined that can yield $30bn p.a. comes from the same geniuses that told us that the mining tax would yield $9bn p.a. which yielded almost nothing, and that the FTTH NBN could be built for $27bn, and spent half of that building <5%.

The single biggest problem that faces these would be corporate raiders is that to change the tax system would mean unpicking decades of international law, and even if they could, the ATO has no ability to subpoena financial records from overseas businesses, and the low tax countries where these transfers occur are unlikely to stop protecting the companies that reside there and pay taxes there.

These implausible eureka moments from the left promising to fill in their budget holes sound too good to be true, and are likely to yield bugger all.

Yes, even though time has been spent explaining some of the basics to *doog* he doesn't seem to be responding to reason.

Another "propaganda parrot" perhaps?

And listen to them all squealing about d.heydon and the r.commission.

I am looking forward to seeing more union blood on the carpet, in what I hope will be a drawn out and painful affair for them and the alp.

HaHaHa

Doog, large mining companies have spent billions in the past prospecting and in fact it has been suggested that they used to only have one in twenty mines viable so the risks were enormous. The Rudd government only showed an interest in them when one, they started to clean up, and two, when there was no money left to waste.

Continually shifting the goal posts on large companies will most likely result in them taking their business elsewhere.

But it's a waste if time trying to reason with you because while they produce tens of thousands of jobs and create so much by way of revenue and taxes, the likes of you wants more. Just be careful what you wish for.