Barely three months past the State election NSW Primer Mike Baird, Abbotts trumpet boy, is calling for a massive hike in the GST, something had he failed to mention before going to the polls in March. With his mate Tony Abbott nodding his approval in the background, Baird is calling for a 15% GST on everything, from apples to automobiles, a gigantic tax on everything, to be paid by the already battling ordinary Aussie, you and me.
With big and small business loath to pay its fair share of tax now, and with its ability to dodge or pocket the GST business is all for it. Oddly conservatives who are always telling us they are a “low tax regime” in government are the very ones who want to tax us out of existence

A hike in GST would be a massive hit to the marginal states, like qld, tas, sa, nt, and wa.
It is a front for Baird to say that, then again vic opposes any increase in GST.

Abbott has shown a reversion to his former tactics lately, even more captains picks have come up. He can't trust his party.

How often does Turnbull have to smooth over the lumps for him. It will take Labor to correct the company taxes and super taxes, so they pay a fair share to the coffers.

Hockey has tried to reign in expenditure and Abbott spends it like a drunken sailor on a binge in subic bay.

Very much so, Paul - tax is the nature of the beast.

We cannot refuse to pay taxes, but we CAN refuse to receive any of this stolen money, be it in the form of Medicare, welfare, government salaries and contracts, subsidies or any other favours. Once government can only hoard, but not expend our tax-money, they will be out of business.

Just don't make the error of differentiating between a "conservative" and "progressive" government - they are all one and the same and their sole existence is about milking and oppressing us, ordinary people, so don't disappoint yourself by superstitiously expecting one arm to save you from the other!

The Business Council of Australia, the representative mouth piece of the much publicized tax avoiding big business sector are saying "no change is no option" when it comes to a discussion on tax. Along with the Chamber of Commerce business representatives are demanding tax reform, now claiming it has to be above party politics, but is this just a euphemism for shifting the tax burden further away from business and onto the battling PAYE taxpayers by imposing a gigantic GST of 15% on everything.

Yuyutsu,

"We cannot refuse to pay taxes, but we CAN refuse to receive any of this stolen money, be it in the form of Medicare, welfare, government salaries and contracts, subsidies or any other favours. Once government can only hoard, but not expend our tax-money, they will be out of business."

Lol! - and we could also refuse to partake of the tax-funded electricity infrastructure that runs to our PCs and tablets that allows us to post comments like that online.

Paul,

But...but...the Abbott govt "axed the carbon tax" (even though no-one has noticed themselves $550 better off)...and the mining tax.

They are officially heroes - Hoorah!

Now they can go to the next election with a "Hike the GST" slogan - great stuff.

Yep the regressives luv Greek mentality. Huge Government spending but no one paying taxes.

doog

The states might feel the electoral backlash from a higher or broader GST, but they would also be the beneficiaries. All GST is redistributed to the states.

Give the opposition blocked budget measures to cut spending, raising the GST and broadening the tax base could do something to reduce the Commonwealth’s deficit (the GST money would go to the States, but the Commonwealth could cut its other transfers to them). In economic terms GST is a pretty efficient tax, and broadening the base would make it more efficient still. It would also give the states more control over how they spend their money.

The big problem is that GST is regressive, taking proportionately more from those on low incomes. So any GST changes should be accompanied by compensation for those on low incomes, by raising benefits and cutting income tax at the bottom of the scale. With those safeguards in place, it seems a reasonable idea to me – its definitely worth having the debate, at any rate.

As a West Australian, though, I’d like to see a fairer mechanism for distributing GST revenues. At the moment, about 70c in every dollar of GST raised in WA is redistributed to the other states and territories

Reading the OP, it is more of the superficial, mud-slinging stuff expected of the NSW 'Watermelon' Greens. Nothing practical, no ideas and not even the vaguest pretence of considering the broad impact of policies.

However, for those who would really like an open discussion, as a first priority I would like to see the government prefer its own contractors, who take hundreds of millions from taxpayers, to be those companies paying full tax in Australia.

It is difficult to overcome international tax rules and agreements, as both sides of government should agree.

It is very poor of globals like the consultancy, accounting, audit and IT corporates such as Microsoft - who have benefitted greatly from outsourcing government operations and have even been allowed a hand in recommending the retrenchment of public servants to gain their work - have structured themselves to avoid paying taxes in Australia.

BTW, the hugely expensive stuff-up of Qld Health's staff payment system was by a well-known global and the deficiencies linger on years later. What a pity the globals never seem to review and recommend a change to outsourcing.

Many reluctant early retirees who remain unemployed years after imposed redundancy, especially sole earners for families who were hoping to build up their financial base after raising children, would be very angry indeed that the greedy globals who edged them out of their employment (proposed and encouraged by Labor's Keating and others to follow), do not pay tax.

Increase the GST? Reluctantly I might agree, with the second proviso that Government do much more to reduce the politically correct victim industries that truly suck and are such a drain on the federal budget. No-one can even tot up the direct and indirect feed of taxpayers' $$ to multiculturalism, for example. What about indigenous, where almost everyone is somehow a contractor to government and the alleged problems increase! -Not unexpected where government has an open chequebook.

doog, do mind providing a few examples to back up your statement:
Abbott spends it like a drunken sailor on a binge in subic bay.

Do you guys really think Labor doesn't want a higher GST? Come on, they want it every bit as much but they don't have the guts to say it out loud.

Let's see how long it takes Plebisek (the likely new leader of Labor, come election time) to denounce raising the GST with a promise to kill it off if it happens.

If we don't want the GST raised we have to make it clear to all the politicians they won't get elected if they go down that track.

Has not anyone thought that governments pay out far more wages and social service benefits than taxes could possibly take in. That many corporations earn less of a private sector income to cover wage liabilities, therefore running at a lose. Governments constant media reporting of debt, debt, Greek debt debit culture allows populations to believe governments don't merely create bank credits to subsidise the difference.
Many humans believe in an existence of a magic god, that because a group of people act like they are in communication with a god, people blindly follow what they say as being truthful. I am stating these same ideas are applied to governments where by going on about debt, populations blindly believe debt "without a doubt" must exist.
After taxes, wages are often spent on purchasing already built buildings, often paid for with bank loans. After taxes, wages pay for rent and loan repayments, and or saved for some future reason. Other than food and occasional motor vehicle, money doesn't circulate as capitalism pretends to create company profits and taxes. Capitalism seems to perfect to be true. Give it month and tax issues will have faded away in to the next fantasy media distraction.

The fact that Labor is already talking about a much nastier tax on CO2 if they get back in is much more concerning than a rise in or broadening of the GST. We have some control over how much GST we pay by buying only things we need; we have no contol over a carbon tax, which increases everything and doesn't make a damn of difference to anything except, perhaps, get a few useless Laborites recognised by those other Robber Barons and would-be World Dictators, the United Nations.

At least the GST stays in Australia, and doesn't end up being wasted in Bongo Bongo land by people dozing under palm trees, or in the coffers of corrupt UN members with a penchant for palace building.

A 10% GST is behind the rest of the world by decades. As long as South Australia's dim-witted Labor government is mentored in how it spends its share, changes to the GST is the obvious way to go.

Sorry to be a wet blanket, but we are only at the start of this tax
and spending crisis. Capitalism has functioned during the last few
hundred years because it has always, except for a few short
depressions, relied upon GDP to repay its interest and capital borrowings
as has government.

With world wide decline in GDP the ability to repay is also declining.
This decline is permanent, although governments have turned a blind eye,
and government intends to press on with outstanding loans as though
nothing has happened.
The cause is the rising cost of energy and the implications are serious.
Unless we devise a much cheaper energy source, we will have to reduce
our standard of living and change the nature of capitalism.
It could mean that large scale capitilism will dissapear and everything will become local.

If you want to see a realtime example watch Greece.
Greece is just the second country to reach this state and look for
symptoms such as younger people leaving the cities and towns for the
country cousins and working the land.
Anothe symptom is a lower number of car sales and petrol consumption.
Whoops for Greece those things are already happening.
For other countries such as the US and Europe they are alreadt seeing
lower car sales and less miles driven per year.
In the US the large shopping malls are closing. There is even a web
site for closed malls.

http://deadmalls.com/

Google closed malls, interesting.
Watch for the first Aussie mall to close.
These are some of the symptoms to watch for & no doubt there are
others.

Bazz, Aussie malls have closed before and I would' t be surprised if a few small ones do again, regardless of how the economy goes. But there's no shortage of cheap energy. Are you still unaware of the answer, my friend?

Greece is in a mess because it's in the Eurozone. As long as Australia prints its own currency, we're immune to that - the government has unlimited credit, so can always implement policies to grow the economy.

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ttbn, the problem is the Federal government, no matter who's in power, likes to create the illusion of fiscal responsibility by underfunding the states. Until that's addressed, raising the GST rate won't make the states any better off in the long term.

If you take a look at the actual effects of the carbon tax, rather than the ludicrous claims Tony Abbott made about it, you'll see that prices hardly changed but there was a drop in CO2 emissions far larger than predicted. BTW the money from the carbon tax also stayed in Australia.

Having the GST at only 10% gives us an advantage over most of the rest of the world. We should try to strengthen that advantage by abolishing it.

___________________________________________________________________________________

steve101,
"Has not anyone thought that governments pay out far more wages and social service benefits than taxes could possibly take in."
Probably not, as the taxation and spending figures are published so we know that's not the case.

Aiden if you believe "there was a drop in CO2 emissions far larger than predicted" because of the carbon tax; give me call, I've got a nice bridge in central Sydney for sale.

No one, I repeat NO ONE, believes the temporary introduction of a carbon tax in Australia had any impact on global CO2 omissions... except you.

ConservativeHippie, I based my statement on http://www.smh.com.au/environment/climate-change/carbon-price-helped-curb-emissions-anu-study-finds-20140716-ztuf6.html

What did you base yours on?

If you really believe that bit of garbage Aidan, you'd be well advised to keep very quiet about it.

Anyone who believed that bit of fluff must be feeble minded. It is not something to admit in company.

I'm sure the fact is you'll grasp at any straw, in an effort to support your emotional attachment to green ideology. Not something to be proud of either.

Beach as the forums resident redneck, and champion of white supremacy, I see you have lost none of your capacity to blame it on the black fella, blame it on the ethnic, blame it on the progressive. Like floods and famines, the problems of taxation is all the fault of multiculturalism, progressives, and of course who could forget the villeins of our society, Australia's indigenous people themselves, One of your typical gems;
"What about indigenous, where almost everyone is somehow a contractor to government and the alleged problems increase! -Not unexpected where government has an open chequebook."
So your solution to Australia's tax problem is, do nothing about corporate tax avoidance which runs into billions, rather just kick the Aboriginal can. Now that is mud slinging stuff one can expect from the ultra right! What is your parties tax policy? I can't find it on the web site, which is full of racial rants, but light on tax policy. LOL

Paul1405,

Anyone who observes that government has to make provision for its payments is showered with personal slurs by you.

The lunar NSW 'Watermelons' and their Lee Rhiannon in Canberra are an embarrassment to new Greens Leader Richard di Natale, but then they were always a thorn in the side of Bob Brown.

Why don't you list the taxes proposed by the NSW Greens, for instance property taxes and taxes affecting small businesses?

The Greens spend like there is no tomorrow with heaps of promises to buy votes, but no effective way of funding them and other government commitments.

It is very, very difficult to understand why any young person would consider a protest vote for the Greens, when the Greens are spending their future.

Hi Aidan

You said

“Having the GST at only 10% gives us an advantage over most of the rest of the world. We should try to strengthen that advantage by abolishing it.”

Even at just 10% and with a comparatively narrow tax base, GST still raises about $57 billion.

http://budget.gov.au/2015-16/content/bp3/html/bp3_04_part_3.htm

How would you propose to make up the shortfall if it is abolished?

Beach, you are entitled to your extreme opinions, but they are exactly that, opinions, not facts. Every post you make contains abuse of The Greens. it is obvious you know nothing of the party with your stupid reference to "lunar NSW watermelons", or Senator Lee Rhiannon, yet continue to pontificate as if you are some kind of self proclaimed world expert. In typical red necked fashion you backhand and vilify Aboriginal people, and other minorities whenever the opportunity presents, and it presents here often for one such as yourself. Hate being called for what you are, a personal slur no less, you may intimidate others on the forum, but not me, I am just calling a spade a spade, spade.

Paul1405,

You are forever posting new threads to push the NSW Greens agenda. So it is only natural that anyone who replies might refer to the record of the NSW Greens, such as it is.

You are in complete denial if you do not accept the published reports of Bob Brown's difficulties with Lee Rhiannon and other NSW Greens. See here,

<Greens leader Bob Brown slaps down Lee Rhiannon on Israel boycott policy

GREENS leader Bob Brown has carpeted future Senate colleague Lee Rhiannon for her anti-Israel stance, telling her the policy was a mistake that cost the party votes in the NSW state election.

He has also accused Julia Gillard of insulting Australians by suggesting Greens voters do not have a love of family or their nation.

Senator Brown said the Israel boycott proposal was against his advice and had alienated NSW voters when the party should have been focusing on bread-and-butter issues.

He had conveyed his views to Greens senator-elect Ms Rhiannon in a “robust” phone call this morning.

Senator Brown said the federal Greens in no way endorsed the policy.>
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/victorian-greens-distance-themselves-from-nsw-branchs-israel-boycott/story-fn59niix-1226031927385

It is yet to be seen if new Greens Leader Richard di Natale can be more successful than Bob Brown was in reining in and keeping a lid on the Greens Watermelons.

No doubt there will be interesting times ahead!

Hi Rhian,

In the long term I'd make up the shortfall by replacing it with a broad based land tax (on unimproved land value). But because it would have to be phased in very gradually (probably over decades) to avoid unfairly disadvantaging those who've already bought property, a temporary rise in income tax and corporation tax would probably be needed. These have been cut and cut and cut long after lack of incentive ceased to be a significant limiting factor - raising them a bit should be tolerable. Some business groups would be fuming, of course, but in reality a low tax rate is not one of the biggest factors in deciding which country a business should be set up in. Much more important are factors affecting how easy it is to make a profit in the first place.

I'd also change the way super is taxed. But tax changes are only part of the solution. We also need to change economic policy to maximise economic growth instead of blindly pursuing surpluses.

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Hasbeen,
When you resort to ad hominems, do you actually manage to fool yourself into thinking you're not the one grasping at straws? Do you really think the people who read this are so dumb that they believe your allegations of feeble mindedness when you've failed to point out any objective reason to disbelieve the report?

A great big new tax on everything!
Now where have I heard that before?

Beach, wrong once again, the discussion treads I submit are more topical, and I believe of interest to fellow 'Formites', you included, and are always accepted by the moderator, you also have the opportunity to submit discussions of your choice. My submissions do not have some NSW Green agenda, as you claim. I do not set out to use this forum to push such an agenda at all. Naturally, as a broad based party, Green politics, as does Labor and Liberal, will encompass a wide range of topics, of both a social and a political nature. Your politics are clear to me, given the nature of your posts, not only do you incessantly attack The Greens as loony watermelons, I think we must frighten you, you also attack certain posters continually, as you perceive them as being "lefties" and unworthy to hold an opinion. Despite you claiming originally on this forum to be "middle of the road" politically, and you may not be a paid up member of the Australia First Party, but your posting very much reflect that particular parties extreme right wing politics, nothing middle of the road about it.
As for Lee Rhiannon and Bob Brown in 2011, disagreements in political parties are common place, I am sure Tony Abbott has had one of his robust discussions with Bromlyn Bishop just this week over helicopters, and Malcolm Turnbull over the ABC last week, he may even have shirt fronted them both, lol. Links to Murdoch are not evidence of anything, although you might like to believe it.

Upping the GST is lazy accounting. This mob are hell bent on taxing the small players, at any cost. The worst part of GST is there is no differential in tax. Essential items, and essential services get the same tax.
They will not put any further costs on the big end of town, if they did it would be deducted from their donations. It’s a clear case of a corrupt government.
The more that is raked in with GST the more Abbott will spend. $ 100 billion $ in 2 years and industry is stagnated, no one has confidence to expand while this regime is in power. There is no trust in govt;
Abbott takes his ideas from Canada, and they are in a mess with debt as high as a kite over their heads.
The last election should have been deemed corrupt and a re election taken. We were fed with untruths, Abbott was going to win an election at any cost, and we are now paying the price, to the tune of 100 b $ in less than 2 years.
Australia needs an election, with checks in place to determine our future as a viable nation, With our small population we are precariously balanced, and we need direction as to our future. The last 2 years has been a dead loss, both in economy and living standards, we now have to choose.

Paul1405,

The Greens would be up *bleep* creek if 'your' ABC didn't lend them a non-critical podium to spruik.

Have a look at the free-for-all for the leftist 'Progressives' that is Q&A.

It will be a long, cold day in hell before the ABC ever subjects the Greens, let alone the flakey NSW 'Watermelon' Greens, to any real scrutiny.

The OLO site allows for free speech with few rules. The mere fact that you are given a podium does not indicate that your opinion is worthwhile or at all balanced.

Come on, 'fess up, you flog the NSW Greens agenda don't you, while 'dissing' the Greens' sworn enemies.

As might be expected of a protest party such as the Greens, it is riddled with factions. The 'Watermelon' faction is very noticeable for its way out foreign policy (foreign in more ways than one!).

Hi Aidan

I can see an argument for broadening the land tax base and raising the rate, but also some problems. On the plus side, it’s hard to evade/avoid, doesn’t distort the economy too much, is reasonably stable and somewhat progressive. It’s also a state tax, so would fit reasonably well with the objective of supporting state funding, and could reduce vertical fiscal imbalance.

On the other hand, it would be more volatile than GST (land values fluctuate more than consumer spending), penalise the asset rich/cash poor (the problem of retirees in suburbs with escalating property values) and would fall disproportionately on those who already suffer the worst from Australia’s declining housing affordability (though house price may adjust in the long run). It would effectively be a double tax on top of local government rates, though these are comparatively small. It would also fall disproportionately on land-intensive industries – notably farming, unless your proposed base-broadening doesn’t extend that far.

GST has all the pluses and avoids most of the problems. Its main drawbacks are that the compliance costs are unnecessarily high and it is regressive, but both of these could be addressed.

Hi MKK

Not a great big new tax on everything, but a great big old tax on everything. Quite different, apparently.

Hi doog

A lot of “essential” things are in fact exempt for GST, but from an economic efficiency perspective, that’s a bad thing. It’s also quite random – if I dine on lobster from the local seafood store, I pay no GST (fresh food is exempt) but if you buy a takeaway pizza, you’re taxed

Why double cross yourself.
The greens are allowed to have a say aren't they. At least the ABC are not pay for comment.

Abbott's idea is to push more and more onto the states. Would end in disaster. If the states held their own taxes what would we need Abbott's mob for.

A government with all the answers has not worked, in fact the most costly of all times. A drain of money that we are not allowed to know about, for what.

We are in freefall with no safety harness, all on the back of untruths.

otb,

"The OLO site allows for free speech with few rules. The mere fact that you are given a podium does not indicate that your opinion is worthwhile or at all balanced."

Precisely!

LOL, a rare instance of introspection from Poirot.

Now, where oh where is the infinitely patient Shadow Minister to play Poirot's parlour game of tot-for-tat? Where Poirot keeps moving the goal posts and the neon, 'Abbotphobia', is brightly lit to lead the way.

Make that 'tit' not 'tot'.

Awww...I quite like "tot-for-tat".

And although I know you've all soared to the heights coming up with "Abbottphobia" - I'm sure if you all try a teensy bit harder, there are other pearls of wit lurking in right-wing land.

With the congregation of Christian fundamentalists and happy clappers meeting in Sydney, no its not The Hillsong Church rally at ANZ Stadium, that was last week. No, its The Mad Monk, aka Tax Em' Tony, and "his" band of devotees meeting at Mick's place. Just like the Hillsong convention, 'Where is the next buck coming from', will be top of the agenda.The big danger from this talk fest could well be any leader opposing a hike in the GST may well be seen as a blasphemer and a heretic, given that the new buzz for GST is 'Good State Tax'. If thou opposest thou GST increase thou cup shall not runneth over, particularly in the health care area, in fact they tell us our hospitals will be broke in no time, danger, danger, warning warning!
With so many experts singing the praises of GST there is a distinct possibility that rational debate will be losts in the stampede to hike the so call efferent tax. I question is a hike in the GST the only real answer, and is this tax all that efferent, and is the health care problem simply manufactured by Abbott pulling $80 billion from the states.
Under the heading of 'Consumption tax is popular but not perfect' Matt Wade in yesterdays SMH highlighted some of the problems associated with hiking the GST.
In point form Wade had this to say;

* The GST is regressive, it hits the poor.
* GST compensation can distort, an incentive to keep people out of the workforce.
^ GST affects consumption patterns, over time GST revenue declines as a percentage of GDP.
* GST and the digital economy, it drives people towards the non GST economy and impacts on business competitiveness.

There are other downsides to the GST, including businesses avoiding the tax for their own benefit. I also question where did the magic number of 15% come from.

Paul,
I do not pretend to know what the best way to raise revenue is
for the whole economy. What I do agree with is that the whole taxing
regime has to be studied as one.
GST cannot be studied without considering its effect on other taxes,
and other taxes on the GST.

The old mantra of "Soak the Rich" does not work either because they
do not have enough money to meet the governments need.
So if the poor, the middle classes & the rich do not have the money
where do you go ?

No, there has to be a reduction in government expenditure.
However, there is an uproar when that is even whispered.
Well the political class will have to get their heads together very
soon or the next crunch will hit them and they will be desperate
trying to borrow money to pay the interest bill.

The next financial crunch cannot be too far away, perhaps even before
the next election.

Paul1405,

The Greens will have to work far harder than that to convince the public that they are not being disingenuous in their opposition to the GST to spruik for the transient disaffected vote who would otherwise likely vote Labor or informal.

There would be some here who would remember that it was the Greens in Tasmania who were trying to wrench supporters from the Democrats who came up with the idea of opposing the GST full-stop, whereas the Democrats generally agreed with some exceptions.

Cynical, self-serving politics from the Greens that continue to today, where the treacherous Greens parasitise Labor for the unemployed ethnic vote, the transient way-out-there left and impressionable young.

The Greens are still in that protest party mode where they pull Senate seats by turning the screws of jealousy, fear and greed on the disaffected and uninformed vulnerable in society. Nasty stuff really.

However there is no likelihood whatsoever that the ABC might ever put the Greens 'policies' under the microscope as they do the other parties and not just the majors either. HMMM, it must be 'their' ABC, as far as that silent informal editorial policy is concerned.

Paul, the GST is a ridiculous and unfair tax as it taxes mums and dads who have already paid their income taxes and allows for all forms of business to claim back the tax (GST) they pay. How stupid is that I ask.

Why on earth these people won't introduce a transaction tax is beyond me because one, the general punter gets more bang for their buck, stimulating the economy along the way and two, all business, big, small, even off shore scammers can't avaoid the tax.

To me it's a no brainer and my only feasible explanation as to why we won't go there is that big business has to much control over government.

Furthermore, tweaking the already low productive GST will simply mean more tweaking will be required once the hand out brigade out spends the increased revenue as is what's happened now.

We must start to tax money not effort as this truly is the only way I can see us plugging the hole.

well the old friend of the workers (not) Bill has shown he wants to hike taxes in order to stop climate change. Not intent to have seen billions poured down the toilet already in totally inefficient renewables he wants to look good in the eyes of the warmist religion and UN. Talk about the age of stupidity.

Runner, are you in favor of taxing those billion dollar religious scammers, like 'Hillsong' and 'The Church of Rome' just to name two of the better known parasites who pay no tax. In fact, I would be in favor of a GST (God Stuffing Tax) on them at 99 cents in the dollar, what about you?

Butch, now we agree a transaction tax, GST of 15% would be a disaster for the likes of you, suddenly the price of meat and vegs goes up 15%, small retailers would be driven out of business by the large players in no time.

'Runner, are you in favor of taxing those billion dollar religious scammers, like 'Hillsong' and 'The Church of Rome' j'

I suspect that they have nothing on the gw religion Paul.