We've all expressed our opinions on our
current Prime Minister - Tony Abbott and
on his current government.

I thought it would be interesting - to find
out what people thought of the leader of
the opposition - Mr Bill Shorten and the
members of his team. It would also be
helpful to learn the reasons for people's
opinions - and why, or if, they prefer one
leader over the other.

I look forward to your comments.

if Bill Shortens past is scrunitised one tenth of that of which abc/sbs has done so to Abbott he is finished. Not likely though.

I don't really have an opinion either way on Bill Shorten.
I don't find him interesting enough.

He may be a smart man, but I don't think he is PM material. He just doesn't have a forceful enough personality.
I would rather see Penny Wong. (wouldn't that cause a stir!) as PM, as I feel she is the sharpest tool in the Labour shed at present.

Bill Shortlen ?
Well, nothing really against him, just does not seem to be comfortable
in the job. He has the failing of other politicians who think they can
just fix everything with growth.
Other politicians including Abbott & Hockey as well I presume Shorten
have been told what is happening with world economy.
Abbott & Hockey, if they believe it are trying to ignore it.
Shorten I think just doesn't understand what he has been told.
He just does not seem to be other than a cardboard cutout.

If he cannot break away from the Union patten he would be a disaster
for the economy as many holy cows will have to be slaughtered.

From Labors side i'm not a fan of Bill Shorten, not an inspiring leader by any stretch. Shorten does have the advantage of being up against probably the weakest PM in living memory. Who in the Labor Party do I admire Penny Wong

I guess Bill Shorten is a bit of a mystery
to many people.
Although, to me at least,
he does appear to have some key
attributes necessary for leadership.

He
does enjoy the support of his party. He does
appear to be open to ideas, and he does have
a firm grasp on social policy. In contrast - at present
the demoralised Coalition government is marked
by legislative defeat, policy confusion,
broken promises, and a worsening budget
position as well as the PM's personal approval
rating being not very good.

I remember being very impressed by what
Bill Shorten said at a celebration of Australia Day
It made me sit up and take notice.

"Real patriots don't try and justify or excuse their
nation's flaws and failings and anachronisms - they
get on and fix them. True patriots don't shrink from
historical truth - they welcome it, they learn from
it. True patriots know that until a nation includes
everyone in its history, in its society, in its
economy - then there is always more to do."

"We gain nothing from boiling down our history to a
bland mish-mash myth of the Rum Rebellion and Burke
and Will,s Badyline and the stump-jump plough,
the Victa Mower and Olympic Gold. There's nothing wrong
with celebrating those moments and achievements - but it
is wrong to pretend that they represent the limit of
our national capabilities - or our national ambitions."

"The Australian "mateship" rarely included everyone.
At the turn of the 20th century the Australian Worker's
Union was open to all workers but at the same time said -
"No Chinese, Japanese, Kanakes, Afghans, or coloured
aliens."

cont'd ...

cont'd ...

"The fact is, mateship has not always been there
when our nation our people needed it - where was
mateship at Myall Creek, or at Lambing Flat?
Where was mateship when governments and
institutions worked together to take children from
their mothers - because the mother was unmarried,
or black."

What a contrast these expressed views are to our
current PM's pit-bull tactics and so many of
his expressed views on a variety of issues.

Interesting times ahead.

I was recently critical of ABC journalist Virginia Trioli, she can be a bit lazy, just recycling the ABC's PC line.

However the flattery directed at Penny Wong reminds me that of the very best interviews of a politician was when Virginia interviewed the usually very slippery and superficial Penny Wong when she was Finance Minister. Seeing a women on the other side of the table, Ms Wong beamed and launched into her routine of, 'We're Grrls together, so this is going to be a free hit day for me just like on Q&A' (compere Jones and Q&A audiences adore her and always let her off light).

However Virginia Trioli was not to be used and politely, deftly and clinically took Ms Wong to task for her abominably poor performance as Finance Minister and for her repeated fabrications. The should be an Australian site where the very best examples of Australian rhetoric are kept, and the best interviews should be there as well. Regrettably, Virginia Trioli's interview has been removed by the ABC, which is a shame for students and historians.

Penny Wong is nice enough in her own way but she is a stuffed shirt with feet of clay who is a human Xerox putting out the daily script from Labor's spin masters. Nothing to be seen there. Worse, she makes no attempt whatsoever to educate herself on the basics to do perform the roles the taxpayer is paying her for.

Another who rides the victim bandwagon, is full of her own entitlement and has never had an original idea.

Shorten and some of his shadow ministers are living proof of how far Australia has moved from the Westminster System. With their embarrassing personal records and associations it is very difficult to see how they might survive a week in the Parliament of the UK.

Shorten, the kind of leader no one wants.
Thanks to Kevin Rudd, the labor party can't get rid of him (unless70% of members vote him out) Talk about lack of democracy.

Has he given one idea? at all about anything?

While he plays fiddle, waiting for Tony Abbott to say something, he has not come up with one plan to increase employment, reduce debt, help hospitals, build infrastructure or even make a suggestion on the subs in SA.

What a total waste of space, him and Tanya Thickasabrick are.

Surely Labor has some talent? Someone who has a vision for the future?

But, alas, it will be at least 2 elections before someone from Labor breaks the mould and becomes a true leader.

Political corespondent, Mark Kenny tells us
that the flip side to Tony Abbott's poll dive
through 2014 is the phoenix-like rise of an
Opposition from the ashes of political rejection ...

There's no doubt that Bill Shorten has been
propelled to a winning position more by Tony Abbott's
betrayals than by any genius the Labor leader
has demonstrated.

Many people are debating what does Bill Shorten really
stand for. What are his core values and where are
the detailed policies that express them?

People seem to forget that all the current government
gave us prior to their election were slogans, rhetoric,
and spin and heaps of promises. More promises then
they were able to deliver. People forget that the
Opposition is not in government and that hopefully
they will present their policies in due course. Unlike
the current government did.

Therefore we should understand - that Bill Shorten's current
practice of giving as little ground to the government
as possible while keeping his own powder dry is learned
behaviour. It worked for Mr Abbott who, now in government
is having it done back to him. And again it is proving
effective as Mark Kenny points out and tells us to just
look at the government's paralysis in the Senate.

Both leaders know that when there is a perception of chaos
in politics the government of the day is generally blamed.

Things will become clearer for us - with time - when Mr Shorten
explains their policies. In the meantime all we can do is
sit back and watch the circus - that is the current
political scene at the moment.

Interesting Foxy, you blame Tony Abbott for not doing things the
Senate blocks. Hmmm.

slogans, rhetoric,
and spin and heaps of promises. More promises then
they were able to deliver.

etc etc etc.

Careful Foxy you are in danger of wining the Turing Prize.

Dear Bazz,

You need to go back and re-read my posts
and take them in their contexts.

Part of the problem is as Laura Tingle, political
editor of the "Australian Financial Review" points
out:

"Politicians do make promises they know they can't keep.
They are reluctant to say, "Well, the government
can't or shouldn't do something about it,"
and are too prepared to suggest they can fix things
when they can't. For some of these expectations,
politicians have no one but themselves to blame. For
others, the media has to take some responsibility, as
reporters and commentators have become more and more
prone to placing expectations on politicians that they
can't possibly meet".

The point being made is - that we need more honesty
in politics - what we don't need is an overload with
pledges to implement policies that politicians know
thay cannot afford

Dear Bazz,

BTW - No. I am not blaming Mr Abbott.
I am quoting Mark Kenny - who is saying
that Mr Shorten's learned behaviour is
very effective judging from the paralysis
occuring in the Senate. He's learned a great
deal from Mr Abbott and is giving Mr Abbott's previous
behaviour back to him. I would have thought that
this was quite clear from my post.

Also what exactly is the "Turing Prize?"
That's something I'm not familiar with.
Is it anything like the awards given to government
strategists and spin doctors -
who sit around and brainstorm tactics -
that will catch out the opposition of the day during
question time (with the help of the "unbiased"
Speaker of the House, of course).

<<However the flattery directed at Penny Wong>> "Who in the Labor Party do I admire Penny Wong" Hardly flattery.

<<I was recently critical of ABC journalist Virginia Trioli>> I'm sure Ms Trioli didn't lose any sleep over your criticism Beach.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kf4nlIEHfaU

I keep checking the faces to make sure it's not Clarke and Dawe skit, it plays almost exactly like one of their skits.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-10-30/clarke-and-dawe-selections-for-the-canberra-hack/5854392

R0bert

Dear Paul,

Talking about Senator Penny Wong...

Chris Graham explains -

Sometimes thinking on your feet is a really good
thing and sometimes not. One of the most well
worn strategies in opposition politics is
to sit around and brainstorm questions that will
catch out the government of the day. That's balanced
out of course by government spin doctors who also
sit around in rooms and try to pre-empt those
questions then prepare corresponding answers for
ministers and bureaucrats.

Well, unfortunately as Chris relates government spinners
either didn't find time to sit with Senator Eric Abetz...
or more likely they just never saw this question coming -

From Senator Penny Wong who began grilling the
Minister for Employment (and Leader of the Government in
the Senate) during Senate Estimates ...

WONG: ... Senator Abetz,... the Prime Minister in his
press conference on the 9th February, ...said a number of
things and one of the things he said was 'I've listened
I've learnt and I've changed and the government will change
with me'
Can you tell me how the Prime Minister has changed?

Senator Abetz could have said a lot of things. Unfortunately
he said this -

ABETZ: Look, er, the Prime Minister is an exceptionally, er,
capable and, er, good individual and, erm, you know,
sometimes the good even gets better, and that is what, er, the
Prime Minister has, er, committed himself, er, to doing, to er,
be more, as he said publicly, more communicative, er, with the
backbench, erm, and with the community.

WONG: So is the "I've changed," ...being more consultative with
with the backbenchers and the community?"

It is important at this time to remember that Senator
Abetz has the annoying habit of over-enunciating his words -
so much so that he sounds like an overly-officious school
teacher for very young children.

On this occasion however, Senator Abetz decided to add a
smug expression to his over-enunciation by sporting a sly
grin and stalled for time.

Senator Wong gave him one of her
best withering stares for which she's become famous.

Politics can be fun.

If he wins we will have another member for the group https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0ja7Vv_4Vc

R0bert

Dear RObert,

Thanks for that.

According to Mark Kenny, Chief Political Correspondent
for Fairfax Media - "Shorten is in a good place for an
Opposition leader. That's not to say he'll win the
election in 2016 ...but his supporters in the Labor
caucus (and that means about everyone) are not complaining."

Kenny tells us that - "Nothing sells like success and
Shorten offers some chance of that. This is a remarkable
outcome given the depths of the fall. Labor's primary
vote had slumped to just 33 per cent at the September 2013
election - it had not been lower in three quarters of a
century."

Which according to Kenny "makes Shorten's path out of the
morass ... all the more Phoenix-like". In fact Kenny says
that "it was the fastest transition from an election loss to
a poll lead over a new government in the history of the
Fairfax-Nielsen poll series."

Kenny also tells us that "the story of that rise is also
the story of the Abbott government's failure via the
political gift that keeps on giving, Treasurer Joe Hockey's
first budget..."

There's more to read at:

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/how-bill-shorten-lifted-labors-fortunes-20141010-1141ra.html

Foxy, Alan Turing was the Cambridge mathematician that invented the
concept of the stored program computer.
His proposition was that was that it should be possible to design a
machine with which you could engage in conversation and you would not
be able to tell if it was a person or the computer with which or whom
you were conversing.
The prize is awarded every year by the Association for Computing
Machines for advances in computing technology.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_Award

Alan Turing was the man who with others cracked the German Enigma machine.
You might have seen the recent film, The Imitation Game about Turing
and Bletchley Park.

Dear Bazz,

Thank You.

No I did not unfortunately, see that film.
I wanted to very much - but
we opted for the film "Into the Woods,"
with Meryl Streep instead, much to my regret.

I'll try to get hold of the film on DVD.

Again Thank You for explaining things to me.

You've now aroused my interest to do some
more research on Turing. He sounds interesting.

Foxy, I have for many years read how the Americans were supposed to
have invented the digital computer and looking through the list of
winners of the Turing prize I can see why.
The association was formed in the US in 1966 and awarded its first prizes.
However Bletchley Park and everything that happened there was still
secret. A late workmate of mine worked at Farnborough with Turing on
the ACE computer in the late 1940s. The Ace was a stored program
computer and used mercury delay lines as memory.
Mercury delay line memories were used early in the war on UK radars.

Even for sometime after the war the Brits were well ahead with computers.

What kind of a leader is Bill Shorten? Is that a loaded question or what?

I don't believe the question was raised as unbiasedly as described "I thought it would be interesting to find out what people thought of the leader of the opposition - Mr Bill Shorten and the members of his team. It would also be helpful to learn the reasons for people's opinions - and why, or if, they prefer (hint, hint) one leader over the other."

Foxy clearly had an agenda and couldn't wait for the opportunity to go on to say "I guess Bill Shorten is a bit of a mystery to many people. Although, to me at least, he does appear to have some key
attributes necessary for leadership." And then - "What a contrast these expressed views are to our current PM's pit-bull tactics and so many of his expressed views on a variety of issues." Examples please?

Bill Shorten is NOT a good leader, he is bland, unoriginal and even less charismatic than Ban Ki-Moon, if that's possible.

If we end up in the unfortunate position of Shorten one day being our Prime Minister, I hope Foxy will re-raise the same discussion after he has been in Office six months.

Hip, don't worry Bill Shorten may one day joint this illustrious list of Aussie Polys;

Frank Tudor
Matthew Charlton
John latham
Arthur Calwell
Billy Snedden
Bill Hayden
Andrew Peacock
Alexander Downer
Kim Beazly
Simon Crean
Mark Latham
Brendan Nelson

Malcolm Turnbull is yet to make the list but like Bill Shorten is a possibility.

Dear Bazz,

What an interesting time it must have been for
that friend of yours who worked at Farnborough with
Turing. I'm not surprised that the Brits were well
ahead with computers. They are an amazing and
resourceful people. My in-laws and members of my
extended family are Brits, and they are awesome.
Again Thank You for opening some new research for me.

Dear ConservativeHippie,

Contrary to your thinking I did not have an
agenda in starting this discussion. I'm not that
clever or calculating. I usually tend to fly by
the seat of my pants and go with the flow - depending on
what other posters write. I dug deep, researched Mr Shorten
and found a different persona to the one we all see on TV.
All written by political correspondents - which I thought
would be of value in response to seeing how little in fact
most of us knew about the man.

Now whether Mr Shorten would make a good leader - who knows?
we'll have to wait and see and I most certainly intend to
comment on his leadership - should he ever get into power.

To answer your request about giving examples of our
current Prime Minister's pit bull tactics?

David Marr confirms in the link given below -
that "years ago when Tony Abbott entered parliament
he was keen to be a "junkyard dog savaging the other
side." He was magnificently.

Marr points out that "the junkyard dog united a shattered
Coalition and proved himself the most resourceful leader
of an opposition in 50 years..."

Marr confirms that the Prime Minister's problem is -
"not the captain's picks, not his failure to consult,
nor the micromanagement of the cabinet by his office",
but his failure to grow.

Marr says that "Abbott is not the brawling kid he was
at university (although many would disagree)... but to an
uncomfortable degree he remains the man recruited in his
teens by the conservative fanatic BA Santamaria..."

Mr Abbott needs to change.

If he can't, according to David Marr the dog metaphors are
too grim to contemplate.

http://www.theguardian.com/australian-news/2015/feb/06/tony-abbott-is-in-trouble-because-he-never-let-the-junkyard-dog-go

cont'd ...

My apologies I mis-typed the link. It should be:

http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2015/feb/06/tony-abbott-is-in-trouble-because-he-never-let-the-junkyard-dog-go

There's also an interesting article in the Quarterly
Essay by David Marr, "Political Animal: The making of
Tony Abbott," which is quite revealing - for those
who want to know more. The Quarterly Essay presents
significant contributors to the general debate. Each
issue contains a single essay written at a length
of about 25,000 words. It aims to present the widest
range of political, intellectual and cultural opinion.

yep being faithful to his wife and being a volunteer and good dad is certainly abhorrent to many on the left.

Dear runner,

What an odd thing to say. How on earth would
you know what the "Left" thinks about anything.
Don't base what others may or may not think on your
own biases. Besides - what the Prime Minister is
to his wife and family is his business. People are more
concerned on what he is (and does) as a Prime Minister
and in which direction he takes the country.

Now back to the topic.

There's a great article in the Herald Sun:

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/opinion/now-bill-shorten-must-show-us=what-he-stands-for/story-fni0ffsx-1227085614306

which states what Bill Shorten must do now.

It tells us that Bill Shorten has spent his time focused
heavily on restoring discipline and cohesion to his party
since becoming its leader and re-engaging the Labor support
base.

I guess that's something he had to do as the article points
out that after six years of infighting and bloody leadership
coups "Shorten must have realised Labor would not survive
if it didn't stop fighting itself and turn its sights on
the enemy across the chamber."

Thus Mr Shorten, we are told, set about restoring peace
(first with Albanese - who accepted Shorten winning
graciously locking in his supporters as well behind Shorten.

The article points out the fact that a high point in May in
the House of Reps was when Mr Shorten "gave a magnicifcnet
Budget-in-reply speech. Articulate, passionate - it raised all
the reasons why the Hockey/Abbott Budget would be unpopular.

The other high point as the article states are the polls -
which have consistently had Labor ahead of the Coalition.

However, the article insists that "now Shorten needs to
be projecting outwards - outlining Labor Party Policy.
Selling those policies and making a case for why Labor
deserves people's votes. We're told that simply blocking
large chunks of the government's budget will not be enough.

I totally agree.

There's more to read on the given website from the
Herald Sun. It is worth a read.

' What an odd thing to say. How on earth would
you know what the "Left" thinks about anything.'

You are incredibly naive or blind Foxy. Just turn on abc/sbs, Q&A, read anything that Fairfax produces and you will learn what the left think.

btw private philosphy very much influences public policy. Next you will try and argue the leftist dogma that porn does not feed rapist and padeophiles.

Foxy, use tinyurl.com when you have long urls.

Fox,

You are giving L'il Willie Shorten the big buff-up because he sledged Australians while appealing to the ethnic vote. You cherry-picked what you saw as the 'good' bits and posted them, here,

Foxy, Wednesday, 25 March 2015 10:36:51 AM

and here,

Foxy, Wednesday, 25 March 2015 10:44:40 AM

That was just Shorten trying to stitch up a few percent of the ethnic vote in marginal seats. Political cynicism. You were on a roll from your thread eulogising a dead Liberal leader, Mal Fraser, for his apparent open door immigration policy and support of multiculturalism. The mere fact that Fraser played fast and loose with the safety and cultural values of Australians by overlooking necessary character checks meant nothing to you.

It is your tiresome left cultural cringe and left elitist preference for anything foreign and deep hatred of the 'white' heritage of Australia.

Got to grin though, Shorten has Anglo-Irish heritage I believe. So L'il Willie Shorten is representative of those 'White men' - you have previously singled 'Anglo-Irish' - you love to disrespect and blame. They are the targets of your endless-diversity-Australia-has-to-have.

Shorten is mouthing the right words to get you excited. As for his personal ethics and policies, well the vacuum there doesn't matter now does it?

Foxy - Quoting Bill Marr as the source of knowledge on all things Abbott is about as balanced as seeking Penny Wong's comments on the man.

I'm surprised you didn't include these pearls of wisdom -

Marr writes: ”He walks as though he has to will each leg forward. It’s curious in a man who is so obviously fit. His face is skin and bone. He smiles but his eyes are hooded. The overall effect is faintly menacing, as if he’s about to climb into the ring.

"I’ve noticed that when talking to Tony, he often leans forward and bounces slightly on the balls of his feet, a bit like a kangaroo. Maybe he just has poor circulation and his toes are numb. For a few years, we saw a great deal of his taut torso, often clad in a pair of red budgie-smugglers. But no longer."

“His minders and perhaps his wife have said no to Speedos and Lycra,” writes Marr. “Even so it can be said that never in the political annals of this country have so many seen so much of so little.”

Come on Foxy, you can't stand Abbott, you take pleasure in finding little snippets you think belittle him; declare your position and move on. The rest of us know where you stand, you cannot pretend you are unbiased or just trying to 'share the facts'.

Dear runner,

I don't have the inclination to debate any
further with your thinking and "logic."

Dear Bazz,

Thank You for your advice. As you can see
I'm not very computer literate.

otb,

Your opinion is not my reality!

Dear ConservativeHippie,

I don't hate Mr Abbott.
It's his behaviour that I question and as a
tax-payer and voter, in this country at least, I
am entitled to do just that.

As for your comparing David Marr with Penny Wong?
Well both have spent considerable time with Mr Abbott
and I suppose each of them would be able to give us
different perspectives on the man. I admire David
Marr's work as an investigative author. Apart from books
he's also written for the Sydney Morning Herald, the Age,
the Monthly. He's been editor of the National Times,
a reporter for Four Corners and presenter of ABC TV's
Media Watch. In 2010 he wrote the Walkley Award-winning
Quarterly Essay - "Power Trip: The Political Journey of
Kevin Rudd."

I found his dramatic portrait of Tony Abbott most interesting.
Of course one has to read the entire article to appreciate the
full context. It also goes without saying that the moment an
author begins to look critically at motivation, circumstances,
context or any other such considerations, the product becomes
unacceptable for one or another camp of readers.

As for my "pretending" to be unbiased?
Really? Whose outlook on the world is not influenced by
their background, training, and prior experiences. Who does
not interpret facts according to one's own values.

Total objectivity is probably impossible to achieve,
since some bias is unconscious. However, a self-conscious
effort to try to be as objective as possible -
giving web-sites, et cetera, will produce better results.
That's all one can strive to do.

Foxy,

"Thank You for your advice. As you can see
I'm not very computer literate."

Your urls aren't that long - do as you please : )

Here you go, boys....catch!

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/mar/26/after-the-onions-theres-no-doubt-tony-abbott-is-a-loose-unit

Dear Poirot,

Welcome back.

Thank You for the link.
Very topical and appropriate.

It certainly sums everything up about our
current Prime Minister's past and present behaviour
and confirms what David Marr and others have also written.
I guess as in many things that old adage applies -
"It's not what you look at that matters - it's
what you see!"
(Henry David Thoreau).

Again - Thanks.

Foxy said:
People are more
concerned on what he is (and does) as a Prime Minister

Really, "they" hang on every word he says looking for some stretch of
meaning that "they" can use to bash him with.
The "Lifestyle" comment was just one example. He cannot even look at his watch !

To use go to tinyurl.com and drag their icon onto your upper task bar
Then when you have a page with a long url displayed click the tinyurl
icon and the tinyurl page will display and show the long url and below
it the tinyurl, just copy it into your email, olo post or whatever.

Then again Foxy you may prefer not to use tinyurl as it's clearer which site your link is emanating from if it can be easily identified by the reader.

And we've been posting links like we do for yonks - surely we don't require chiding because "someone" makes the judgement that they're "too long".

Dear Bazz,

Thanks for your opinion and for your advice.

However, I prefer to stick with what I have
been doing to date. I feel more comfortable
with doing that.

Dear Poirot,

I find it easier and simpler to quote as you
pointed out - relatively
small portions from the links and then give the
entire link as well so that people can access
the full information available straight away.
The reason I quote something from the links is
that not everyone bothers to read the given links -
so its simply to get them interested in reading
more.

Now back to the topic...

I cam across an interesting article on the web -
which judging from some of the posts in this discussion
I thought may be relevant to this discussion:

"While I respect your opinion and beliefs and am glad
that you've found what works for you in your life. I
believe differently and your views don't work for me.
What is "right" is what is right for you. What is "right"
is also what is right for me.
I do not want you to impose your "right" beliefs on me...

And your subjective beliefs are not irrefutable, unbiased,
singular truth. Dictionary.com - defines a belief as
"something believed; an opinion or conviction".
It is not a fact ..."

Fox has spoken!

To all of those dear Anglo/Irish 'whites' out there who according to Fox are blameworthy for all that is wrong in Oz, expect more incoming shells from Fox.

Not Anglo/Irish L'il Willie Shorten though, or at least not while he is all for record migrant numbers and is sledging his fellow Aussies to win the ethnic vote in marginal seats.

Labor has problems, in NSW for example,

http://tinyurl.com/muslim-problems-for-labor

Sic 'em Fox, get right onto that NSW Labor mob! LOL

otb,

Your opinion is not my reality.

It is also neither desired nor required.

"The Man In the Arena".

An excerpt from the speech delivered at the
Sorbonne, in Paris, France, on 23rd April 1910,
by Theodore Roosevelt, and today read
at the State Funeral of The Honorable Malcolm
Fraser - at Scots' Church, Collins Street,
Melbourne. It is something from which all of our
political leaders can learn:

"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who
points out how the strong man stumbles, or where
the doer of deed could have done them better.
The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the
arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood;
who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short
again and again, because there is no effort without
error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to
do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great
devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at
the best knows in the end the triumph of high
achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least
fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never
be with those cold and timid souls who neither know
victory nor defeat".

And now back to the topic.

I'm not sure what sort of leader Bill Shorten
would make. I, like most people can only go
by what the various sources in the media
tell us.

For me this discussion has now run its course -
however, before I go - here is a website that may
be of interest. It is a transcript of an
interview done by Jon Faine with Bill Shorten.
Jon Faine asks some very relevant questions:

http://billshorten.com.au/radio-interview-abc-774-with-jon-faine-tony-abbotts-unfair-budget-100000-degrees-tony-abbotts-gp-tax

Fox,

Your self-claimed, self-promoted 'balance' has cherry-picked Shorten's own Labor site for an opinion of him. So it is not surprising it meets Shorten's approval and obviously your own. After all, it is all Shorten buttering himself up.

otb,

That particular website contains the transcript of an
interview that Mr Shorten had with Jon Faine.
I chose it simply for that reason.

The transcript
deals with many issues that
most people would be interested in and it shows
what Mr Shorten stands for. Therefore in leaving
this discussion I thought it would be appropriate
to include it.

Of course I realise that no matter what I say -
you will persist with false accusations
and smear tactics.

Mr Shorten explained:

"Real patriots don't try to justify or excuse
their nation's flaws and failings and anachronisms.
They get on and fix them. True patriots don't
shrink from historical truth. They welcome it,
they learn from it. True patriots know that until
a nation includes everyone in its history, in its
society, in its economy - then there is always
more to do..."

Mr Shorten is not the only one who thinks this
way. Malcolm Fraser agreed with this.
Peter Costello agreed with this. Peter Coleman
agreed with this. Denis Napthine agreed with this.
Sir Robert Menzies agreed with this.
Malcolm Turnbull agreed with this.
Julie Bishop agreed with this,
and so did many, many, more, on all sides
of politics.

You obviously have a different opinion.
However, your opinion is not my reality.

I do not hate
white Anglo- Irish Australian men.
I grew up with an Anglo-Irish Australian parish priest
who was and is - a part of our family.
He performed my wedding
ceremony, and has always been and will continue
to be - a part of my life.
I love this country. But - I do not believe in
justifying or excusing our nation's flaws and failings and
anachronisms.

I do not believe in shrinking from
historical truths. We learn from them and we should try
to fix them. I also do not believe in trying to invalidate
the migrant or our Indigenous people's experience.
As Mr Shorten and others have pointed out - "until a
nation includes everyone in its history, in its
society, in its economy - then there is always more to do."

Foxy, for someone who doesn't have a particular barrow to push, it's interesting to note that of 43 previous comments on this discussion, 23 have been yours.

Dear ConservativeHippie,

And out of all those comments what political
barrow precisely was I pushing Sir?

Or because I started this discussion was I
merely trying to keep it going and trying
to broaden it. That's usually the obligation
of those who pick a topic for discussion.
At least in my opinion.

Cheers.

The 'Bill Shorten is better than Tony Abbott' barrow, Foxy.

Foxy, yesterday you declared this discussion has run its course. Today you use the excuse of countering every opinion that differs from your own as "... I started this discussion was I merely trying to keep it going and trying to broaden it. That's usually the obligation of those who pick a topic for discussion. At least in my opinion."

There is a difference in feeding the discussion and hammering home your point at every opportunity. We knew where you were coming from on day one.

Dear ConservativeHippie,

No. I have not stated that Bill Shorten is "better"
than Tony Abbott. I have clearly stated that none
of us really know Mr Shorten. And that I was critical
of Mr Abbott's behaviour - and that as a tax-payer,
and a voter I was entitled to be.

However, if as you state that you knew where I was coming
from right from the start. Then your mind it appears
has been made up from the get-go no matter what I say.
I can only assume that you are therefore only interested
in condemnation, not explanations - therefore I see no
point in any further discussion with you. Whatever floats
your boat old chap. I shall leave you to it.

Cheers.

cont'd ...

One final word:

http://www.smh.com.au/comment/smh-editorial/the-politicians-pledge-your-chance-to-clean-up-dirty-politics-20150312-140s1q.html

Fascinating...Foxy starts a thread on this subject - and "onthebeach" (as is his wont) snugs down in personal innuendo and misrepresentation - again.

"It is your tiresome left cultural cringe and left elitist preference for anything foreign and deep hatred of the 'white' heritage of Australia.

Got to grin though, Shorten has Anglo-Irish heritage I believe. So L'il Willie Shorten is representative of those 'White men' - you have previously singled 'Anglo-Irish' - you love to disrespect and blame...."

"To all of those dear Anglo/Irish 'whites' out there who according to Fox are blameworthy for all that is wrong in Oz, expect more incoming shells from Fox.....Sic 'em Fox, get right onto that NSW Labor mob! LOL"

You're more transparent than you think you are...Lol!