I learned the sad news this morning of the death
of our former Prime Minister Malcolm Fraser who
died after a short illness aged 84.

I thought that the posters on this forum would
want to send their condolences to his family
and express what the man meant to them. He had
a long career in politics and with his death it
seems like the passing of an era.

I wish his family my Deepest Sympathy.

May he Rest In Peace.

Foxy, you beat me to it on this one. I am genuinely saddened by the passing of Big Mal, I may not have said that back in 1975, but time and his actions certainly have changed my opinion about the man. A truly great and caring Australian. Resigned from the Liberal Party in 2010.
Now all three major political players from those tumultuous days in 75 have gone Kerr-Whitlam-Fraser the passing of one hell of an era in Australian politics.

Dear Paul,

I am very saddened as well. Modern Australia
will be an emptier place without his vision
and leadership, that's for sure.

I had forgotten some of his achievements and
then reading articles on the web - I made a note
of some of them:

1)Here was a leader who was a staunch defender of
asylum seekers and a critic of Australia's
foreign policy. He regularly penned articles
condemning Australia's mandatory detention
policies and its relationship with the US.

2)He maintained the Whitlam Government's commitment to
the cause of reconciliation and land rights of the
Aboriginal and Torres Straight Islander people.

3)He offered refuge to tens of thousands of vulnerable people
driven from Vietnam by the horror of war.

4)He maintained many of the policies implemented by
the Whitlam Government, including the precursor to
Medicare, Medibank, and free tertiary education.

The friendship which developed between him and his
former political enemy, Gough Whitlam was testament
to his character.

5)His work to end the apartheid
regime in South Africa both during and after his time
in political office demonstrated his commitment to
equality.

And, his subsequent appointment to roles
with the United Nations and the Commonwealth of Nations
reflected his high international standing.

6) He established the Family Court, the Commonwealth
Ombudsman, and the nation's first Freedom of Information
laws and the Human Rights Commission.

Apparently he continued working right up to the time
of his death.

I hope that there will be a State Funeral or a State
Memorial Service for him. That would be a respectful way
for the current Government to honour a man who contributed
so much to this country.

May He Rest In Peace.

Are you actually talking about the same arrogant fool, who couldn't keep his pants on, that I remember? The one who was only very marginally better than the dill he replaced.

No wonder he & Whitlam got on in their later years, each were about as nutty as the other.

Between them they did almost as much damage to Oz as Rudd & Gillard.

Hasbeen,
Fraser also recognised Democratic Kampuchea and Zimbabwe...but we don't talk about CHOGM and ASEAN and all that skullduggery anymore.

Dear Hasbeen,

"De mortuis nil nisi bonum dicendum".

According to articles on the web and other
sources that I have come across - There is
a reason why we should not speak ill of the
dead. It's wrong to do so when someone has
died and cannot defend themselves.
You're supposed to get your criticism in while
they're still alive. Out of respect (and tradition).

All of us realise that you shouldn't suddenly
decide to like someone just because they're
dead - however, why bother writing anything at all
in that case.
As one author pointed out - you don't drag corpses
around the public square after they've died.

Imagine if at a wedding people would say - "Nope I
can't stand the groom, he's not suited to her at all!"
Or at a Christening, "Look, this is just the ugliest
looking baby I've ever seen!"

Therefore on certain occasions respect and tradition
are more important than your own version of the bald
truth.

Speaking ill of the dead is not just distasteful.
It's cowardly!

Australia would have been far better off if Fraser had been still born and the milk fed to the pigs.

Don't forget he saddled us with the Leb problem. Against departmental advice as well and strongly pushed the multicultural barrow. Damage that cannot be undone.

Pity he has been taking our oxygen for so long.

Dear Banjo,

How will you be remembered I wonder once you
take your last breeeeeeeeeeeath?

"Even reckless drunken drivers,
Even alcohol imbibers,
Even little children rooters,
Even supermarket looters,
Even violent gay bashers,
Even public penis flashers,
Even tiny kitten-kickers,
Even anal finger-lickers,
Even rampant migrant haters,
Even one-eyed mean debaters,
All desire what they ain't
In death to become a saint!"

( Adapted - from a ditty I found on the web).

Foxy I don't wear this sudden veneration of someone, just because they are dead. If they were a lousy person, or a really lousy PM I see no reason to say otherwise.

Many of us here are getting pretty close to the same position. Another of my contemporises died a couple of days ago. A few of us are remembering him, as a great racing driver, but more as a man. Any praise will be sincerely felt. It will not be just because a lot of fools voted for him.

If Tony Abbott stepped under a bus tomorrow, the press core, who hate his guts, would be waxing lyrical in praise of his just discovered by them, sterling qualities. They disgust me even more than Fraser did. I will not be part of such crap.

Malcolm will stand before God like everyone else. Better to let Him judge the dead.

I carry no torch for Malcolm Fraser but i did see him in a good light once, as a gentle and caring husband.
I was living just up the road from him in Kirribilli and walking home one afternoon I saw Malcolm and Tammie ahead, a Commonwealth car pulled up to take her somewhere and Malcolm put his arm around her and gave her a kiss before she got in the car and they waved to each other as the car drew away.
Malcolm kept walking and I was passed by two young men, who looked very fit and were actually marching in step.
I twigged that they were his security detail and were service personnel, probably Army Officers.

So, in my best parade ground voice I gave the order "Change Step",
one of them executed it perfectly and the other stumbled and turned and gave me a look that would have curdled milk at 50 metres!

Made my day.

Foxy, its sad really the things a person like Malcolm Fraser stood for, honesty and fairness etc, are detested by the rabid right wingers on here. Maybe we should start a thread to the memory of Joseph Goebbels, and add a possible touching tribute from Tony Abbott, that was disgusting of Abbott comparing Shorten to Goebbels! I am sure the Rabid Right will be over generous of their praise of another mad man. Sad, very sad.

Just leaving the politics to one side to look at the man, in his late years Fraser always seemed to be compensating, as though to atone for wrongs in the past. More likely it was the reaching out of a very lonely man and to an extent, his wish to be remembered for something other than as the man who brought down a rival for his own benefit. Commenting on international politics is something ex-Presidents do too. It is safe and one is usually right, somehow.

Fraser reminds me of the essential finding of the UK series that tracked people from their early childhood to adulthood, "The child is father of the man." - William Wordsworth.

I suppose we all remember the reserved child who seemed destined to forever stand apart from the rest and not because s/he wanted it to be that way either.

For all of his wealth, opportunity and achievement most wouldn't choose to walk in his shoes. It is pleasing he was able to get some closure with Whitlam though and Whitlam with him. I wonder how they both came to regard the people in the background, in the High Court for instance, who advised them at the time.

There is too much focusing on the individual, whereas the individual leader is much more at the mercy of presenting conditions and events they cannot do much about. Sells papers and entertains their dumbed-down audiences I suppose.

Fraser lived and died a true Liberal and conservative but one with a concern for humanitarian causes and he never recanted anything he believed in.

When a former Party leader and dedicated conservative is labelled as a "lefty", what does that say about the current state of political debate?

He was the last true Liberal leader. Those that followed are nothing more than a bunch of extremist Neo-Cons, all too eager to adopt the worst of the US Republican methods and policies and have sold out to extremist and religious interests just to get into power.

Compared to them, Fraser was a giant in many ways and actually left a worthwhile legacy.

I used to despise Fraser for his politics, his arrogance and the method he used to gain power but feel strangely sad at his passing.

Dear Hasbeen,

I think it's how things are said that make
a difference. Banjo could have expressed those
very same sentiments in a more restraint way
and still got his message across.

As for what the reactions would be if Mr Abbott
were to die? I would hope that people would
express their feelings in a civilized way -
and consider the feelings of his family during
a difficult time for them.

Call me old-fashioned but I really do think it is
bad form to speak ill of the dead. They can no longer
hurt you, or defend themselves - and if you have
nothing good to say then at least use some restraint
in the way you say things.

Dear Is Mise,

Thank You for sharing your story - it must have been a
great moment.

Dear Paul,

It is sad that people decide to vent their feelings
so strongly against someone who can't defend
themselves.

Dear otb,

You continue to surprise me.

Thank You for an excellent post.

Dear wobbles,

Your contribution here is greatly appreciated.

Dear runner,

That's the runner I would like to hear from more
often. Thanks for your very appropriate comments.

As a young student in the early 80s I was an active participant in the protests over "Fraser's Razor Gang" and if asked then I would have loudly and clearly spoken of my dislike for him and all he stood for.

Big Mal changed and so did my opinion of him.

He became a great man and in his reformation of himself showed why the shallow, pompous fools who spend their entire lives resisting any form of change are so little to be admired. It takes character to do as he did.

It's a shame that there is so little of it on display here from the ancient snarks who hide behind psudonyms so they never have to take responsibility for their detestable behaviour. Gutless wonders and neverweres.

Good thread, Foxy.

Dear Craig,

I agree with you - it does take character to do what
the former Prime Minister Malcolm Fraser did. He was
a man of principle - not party.

As the website listed below points out -

"John Malcolm Fraser was above all else a genuine liberal
in the best sense of the word... How could it have come to
this, J>M> Fraser must have wondered constantly in more
federal years, as political behaviour, state and federal,
from top to bottom, in our parliament and out, right across
the three major parties in our democracy, became uglier,
greedier, less inclusive, less civil, less caring, more
irresponsible, more ill-mannered, more shrill, more rat bag,
and wholly more venal, indeed blighted in any and every way...
what is happening to national political life in this country?"

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/malcolm-fraser-dead-the-liberal-party-turned-its-back-on-former-prime-minister-20150320-1m45wq.html

A number of people on this thread lack compassion and decency.
I agree with you here on this thread, Foxy.

RIP Malcolm Fraser.

"Big Mal changed and so did my opinion of him."

Malcolm Fraser didn't change - the Liberal Party lurched to the right, and that's where we are now.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/mar/20/malcolm-fraser-a-leader-who-believed-there-is-a-moral-compass-in-our-nations-life?CMP=share_btn_tw

Fred Chaney

"It has often been said in more recent years that Malcolm changed after he left the prime ministership, that he moved to the left. It would be surprising if in the 40 years after he left parliament, none of his views had changed. He himself has recorded his shift in the area of foreign policy. But in that 40 years, as the whole political system shifted to the right, it would have been surprising if he had been in sympathy with many of the new policies of both sides of politics. My wife Angela, who I enrolled in the University Liberal Club on her first day at the University of Western Australia, has observed that the party I joined no longer exists. And of course you could say the same thing about the Labor party of that era and the Labor party today. But on the issues which led me to become a firm supporter of Malcolm he was extraordinarily consistent."

For the likes of Hasbeen to denigrate him in the way he has is not surprising - after all Fraser was a man of great stature and moral depth - and Hasbeen.....

Paul 1405,
Fraser lacked Goebbels ready wit,practiced oratory and intelligence, other than that they were both decent, moral family men who were admired by their supporters and colleagues.
To ignorant people who know nothing about Goebbels and have never read any of his work (Tony Abbott and Mark Dreyfus for example) the comparison is a trivial, throw away line intended merely to rile the opposition, critical examination of the character of Fraser and Goebbels tends to favour the latter as the superior politician and the better man.

Just mention that Malcolm Fraser was very much still part of the wider political commentary. He was extraordinarily active on twitter and in his connections with mainstream media and Australian politics.

He was part of the conversation right up till his death.

He will be missed.

Poirot, you (and Fred Chaney) may well be correct, but I can well remember Fraser during those rather tumultuous years and there wasn't a lot of the compassionate, well-rounded man of later years on display. What Fred Chaney knew of the man out of the public spotlight may be quite different to what I thought I knew of him in its full glare.

There's a lot to be said of being willing to change and to accept that what one may have once sincerely held to be true is not necessarily to be regarded as indisputable.

I'd go so far as to say that being willing to admit that one's views are subject to being changed is a fundamental marker of adulthood. Unfortunately, our body politic is relentlessly juvenile in that regard.

Yes, Craig...it's interesting to hear of the musings of the likes of Chaney's - from someone who knew the man personally.

Fraser did not possess the charisma of a Hawke or Whitlam, so it's not surprising that his public persona was more opaque.

Everything that I've read tells of a man of moral consistency down trough the years.

He was extremely outspoken on human rights of late, using social media effectively - critical of both the LNP and Labor, and passionately engaged in that subject on an international scale also.

Jay,

"....examination of the character of Fraser and Goebbels tends to favour the latter as the superior politician and the better man."

If murdering one's own children is one of your criteria then I guess that you're right.

@Craig Minns, Saturday, 21 March 2015 12:24:56 PM

You are right to say that Fraser presented AND ACTED as a hard economic rationalist. He was also a colossal snob and a right SOB with 'hirelings'(sic) as he saw them. His Commonwealth driver/s might have something to say (and his own dog that bit him).

Frankly I would like to believe that his attitudes changed as he aged. Maybe Tammy had some effect, although she was from a 'select'(sic) background too and may not have changed herself.

No, I would say that Mal always desired personal attention (denied to him by his personality and manner all of his life) and fame, and found and relished the attention he got, easily too, from supporting certain causes.

The test of his change and new-found sensitivity would be what practical things he did that cost HIM personally, rather than the suggestions that others do things (especially internationally). I wonder what his security detail, hotel staff and workers at Narrabeen might say. Did he say hello and care enough to ask them about their lives and maybe tip? Or did he pass them like a naval battleship expecting all to get the hell out of his way?

I should have added that one of the significant differences between Whitlam and Fraser as men was that brash Sydney Whitlam challenged the Melbourne establishment, very landed gentry, and Fraser epitomised Melbourne Establishment.

The hope of Whitlam was a break from the stultifying establishment controlled Oz. In truth Gough did that, successfully challenge the born to rule Melbourne establishment. Although he was a hopeless PM. Fraser had no way of stemming the tide, that broad change in attitude and values, although he did try.

Along the same lines, Gough wrought considerable positive change in thinking and acting in the C'wealth Public Service too. Regrettably the cooperation among departments and concentration on community benefit was brief (the econonomic rationalism of Fraser and later LABOR administrations changed that), and the opportunist middle class stepped in to take advantage.

Fraser became maudlin with age as some men do (Shakespeare), whereas Gough could walk across Lake Burley Griffin practically to the last.

Thank You all for your comments and
contributions to this discussion.
My brain is on over-drive with all of
the various comments I've read - not only on this
thread but on the web and in the newspapers.

Most people are being very constrained and
courteous - and of course - there's plenty
of rude comments as well.

Perhaps as Ben Eltham
pointed out in his Obituary to the man -
the former Prime
Minister's death would be a good opportunity
to reflect on the passing of a key figure in
modern Australian politics and what sort of
legacy did he leave the Liberal Party.

Eltham tells us that Fraser
represented a type of conservative politician
that has almost vanished. Things are so
different now in the strange mutation of political
views in the party Fraser once led. It is difficult
today - to imagine a Liberal politician
hailing from a farming district - a parliamentarian both
conservative and in support of scientific research and
free and open immigration.

Eltham says that -
Fraser's earlier behaviour would probably suit
the current ethos of the Liberal Party. He's referring to
Fraser's tactical
brilliance during the Dismissal - the Machiavellian
but empty belief in power by any means and at any cost.

It will be interesting to see what lies ahead for the
Liberal Party. Change the leaders and you're like Labor,
don't change the leader and you're electorally doomed.
The party faces the choice between a leader who probably
can't win an election versus an alternative they don't
like.

Interesting times ahead.

In the meantime, may our former Prime Minister,
an Oxford educated patrician grazier - seemingly born to rule
who believed in national development, personal liberty,
and conservative social values - Rest In Peace.

Jay, you are forever the Nazi apologist, are you not. <<Goebbels tends to favour the latter as the superior politician and the better man.>> BETTER MAN! Is he your favorite Nazi or something. The man was a maggot of the lowest order, party to the genocide, and mass murder of millions! And the "decent family man" murdered his whole bloody family End of story. Sorry, as you say the 'Holocaust' never happened!

"Malcolm Fraser didn't change - the Liberal Party lurched to the right, and that's where we are now." Poirot my apology you are correct on that.

With respect, Ben Eltham is a lightweight and clueless about the times and political events of the Seventies and Eighties, and that is being generous to him.

There is far too much rewriting of history to suit present attitudes and spin. Students beware!

To add, I don't believe that Fraser was a brilliant strategist at all. He always was a colonial drongo, born with a platinum spoon in his mouth, who trudged doggedly on once he set course in a particular direction. Mind like a steel trap. Little gets in, but what does is there practically forever.

For a moment in history Australia was alive with the energetic, smart-A Gough, who even though flawed as far as leadership went, at least breathed some new life into Canberra and Australia.

Whitlam was a charismatic change agent who needed watchful direction, solid team members good with detail to bring him back to Earth and someone above him to make the decisions. He was let down by the usual Oz front bench - one where they let the leader do the work while they sort their own entitlements and have a jolly good ride. His cabinet colleagues should have sorted the wayward lunar module Rex Connor and that self-indulgent fool Cairns, to pick a couple of examples.

Fraser, although blessed with wealth, education, contacts, privilege and opportunity, was a highly predictable automaton of the Melbourne Establishment. He did not have the wit nor entrepreneurship to do anything with the power of office once gained, but to continue on while over-tightening the stays. That is not to say that the Fraser government wasn't useful because it reined in spending, but it represented another lost opportunity for Australia to modernise (eg float the currency). Fraser made his front-bench do some work for their money, which was good to see.

Doubtless Fraser did the best he could with what he had and his odd upbringing.

otb,

Ben Eltham - a lightweight and clueless you say?
Really? And on what do you base your comments?
His CV and staff profile at Deakin University
say otherwise.

Dear oh, dear. The world is full of people on this
forum - who should
just keep their mouths shut and not allow their biases
to speak for them.

Here are the facts concerning Ben Eltham:

Ben Eltham is an Australian writer, journalist, researcher,
creative producer and social commentator. He is a Research
Fellow at Deakin University's
Faculty of Arts and Education. In addition to his academic
research - Ben is also a widely-published writer and
journalist. He writes regularly about Australian politics,
Culture, and the Arts, for a range of publications and media
outlets - including The Guardian, Meanjin Quarterly, Crikey,
just to name a few. He is a regular commentator on radio
for 3RRR.

He completed a post-graduate honours degree in neuroscience
at the University of Queensland. He completed his PhD in
Cultural Policy at the University of Western Sydney. He is a
Fellow of Sydney based Public Policy Institute - The Centre
For Policy Development.

He has worked in the field of culture and the arts as a
freelance arts journalist and critic, producer and festival
director in Newcastle, Brisband, and Melbourne. He publishes
regularly in academic journals on cultural policy, social
media, communication theory and politics.

He's also a top bloke!

otb,

Actually - your take on Malcolm Fraser disagrees
with the views of people who really knew him.
From politicians, to journalists and political
commentators, to friends. I have received
a totally different view of the man from all the
reading that I've been doing - to the
one you've chosen to share with us. Perhaps you need to
do a bit more research, and reading if you're
aiming for accuracy. However, if all you're interested
in is just wanting to air your private opinions
that's fair enough.

Fox,

Your defence of Ben Eltham's opinion misses the point that there are many far better qualified and informed on the era and politics, and who lived through that time.

Obviously you cherry-pick opinions to match your own.

Paul, Is mise, you guys brought up the comparison not me, it's not my fault you know nothing about WW2.

Given Fraser's stand on South Africa and Cambodia it's clear he was accepting of the idea of mass murder, mass rape and torture as a means to an end.
What's that you say? Nobody knew what was going on in S-21 or the Quatro camps at the time? If Fraser is to be posthumously excused of his crimes against humanity then Goebbels and the other senior NS should also be rehabilitated because it's clear that they knew nothing about any mass murder on an "industrial" scale.
Just admit it, Fraser was wrong on South East Asia and wrong on Southern Africa, he facilitated then ignored the atrocities of the ANC and ZanuPF and worked against a regional solution in Cambodia.
Hey Liberals are not moral people by nature and Fraser was one of the worst, you forget he was hated by the left back in the day and now he's universally detested by radicals at both ends of the spectrum.
Fraser was weak, vain and above all self serving, of middling intellect it's no surprise that only far less intelligent people such as senator Hanson Young see him as this erudite, avuncular figure.

Jay,

What you say might be true about South Africa and Cambodia but you can't get away from the fact that that Hitler's little propaganda minister murdered his own very innocent children so there is no comparison.

You simply cannot say that a man who murdered his own children is better than a man who didn't do the same thing.

If Goebbels didn't know about the death camps in WW II then he was seriously misinformed and wasn't on top of his job.
I wonder who would have had the guts to mislead him?

You also said "....critical examination of the character of Fraser and Goebbels tends to favour the latter as the superior politician and the better man."

Is that not a comparison?

Jay, Malcolm Fraser was wrong about a lot of things, what human being isn't? Fraser's support of the Vietnam War was wrong, no question about that. As PM Fraser made mistakes, but on balance he was a good person.
No, neither Is Mise or myself tried to draw any comparison between Fraser and the fervent Nazi propagandists Goebbels, who through the blatant use of lies instigated hatred of millions, by millions.
I brought up the recent grubby comment in parliament by Abbott in making a comparison between Goebbels and Shorten. As for WWII, you are the histories revisionists on that subject.
Is Mise we seem to be on the same side on this one.

otb,

Your critiques of Ben Eltham - coming from
such a "deep thinker" as yourself who regularly
"cherry-picks" from The Australian and Piers
Ackerman, et al, shall be taken as seriously and
appropriately as they deserve.

Now back to the topic:

Mark Kenny in the Saturday Age, March 21, 2015
points out (as Ben Eltham did) that Malcolm Fraser's
death has prompted many Liberals to reflect on the
direction of their party, potentially adding to Prime
Minister Tony Abbott's woes.

Within hours of the 84 year old's unexpected death,
senior figures including Mr Fraser's former treasurer
and then prime minister, John Howard, spoke glowingly
of an "extraordinary Australian" who "brought great
integrity" to the nation's political class.

Mr Howard's treasurer, Peter Costello, said Mr Fraser made
an enormous contribution and would be "sorely missed."
"A very active mind, a very intelligent mind. He was a
tough man, and ...if Malcolm gave you advice, you listened."

Mr Abbott described Mr Fraser as someone who deserved the
continuing respect of all Australian Liberals.

The ABC will be airing a program on Mr Fraser this evening.
I'll definitely be watching.

I have just learned something new about
Malcolm Fraser from another poster on another
website:

"Malcolm Fraser was the only past or present
Coalition MP to have signed the
"Canberra Declaration on Gaza."
(The other 79 signatories all being past or
present Green or Labor MPs)".

http://www.gazadeclaration.com/

"Eternal rest grant to them, O Lord.
And let perpetual light shine on them.
May they rest in peace. Amen."

Vale - Malcolm Fraser.
A decent humanitarian Australian.

Jay, with the greatest possible disrespect, I think your views are repugnant and not fit to be expressed in civilised company.

Fox,

As an ardent supporter of open door immigration and the endless-diversity-Australia-has-to-have you could be expected in solidarity, in lock-step with Greens' Sarah Hanson-Young.

However Australians do NOT support such extreme policies and do NOT thank Malcolm Fraser's erratic over-compensation (personal) by bringing in against all advice and without adequate background checks, large numbers of Muslims from Lebanon, Vietnamese (allegedly only because they were allies) and from Africa.

While migrants are welcomed by Australians - unlike many other countries in the world - it is incumbent upon government to exercise due diligence and caution in doing so. Fundamental to that is preferring the independent, informed advice of DOFA and the Department of Immigration and complying with existing policy that has been agreed by his own government and by the parliament.

Taking large numbers from any one place at one time is fraught with social problems for later. Where that is combined with inadequate screening it is guaranteed that undesirables, and criminals will be admitted and given citizenship.

Fraser often 'winged it', displaying contempt for the views of his colleagues and for due process. In so doing he put the safety, welfare and quality of life of the Australian people he was supposed to be representing, at considerable risk.

Not considerations you or Sarah Hanson-Young would be worried about, frivolously declaring that the police can sort it out later - not that the Greens ever support the police of course.

Fraser's inheritance for Australians? Well one couldn't go past the necessity to have a special Middle East Crime Unit for that.

Craig, Paul, Is Mise.
Many Germans killed their children and themselves rather than fall into the hands of the Soviets.
Joseph and Magda Goebbels made the heartbreaking decision to poison their children to spare them the ordeal of rape and torture at the hands of Soviet soldiers.
If anything is repugnant it's the characterisation of the final act of loving parents as "murder", what would you have them do, sit and watch as their kids were raped , sodomised with foreign objects and then mutilated whilst still alive?
http://www.theguardian.com/books/2002/may/01/news.features11
While we're still on the subject kindly quote back to me the exact passages from Goebbels wherein he claims to hate Jews or calls for them to be killed. There's no record of ant senior NS figure ever discussing mass murder in public or private yet where Jews were killed en masse on the Eastern front there are abundant field reports giving numbers killed and the circumstances under which they died.
The fact is that the massacres were the end unto themselves, there was no wider context, Jews were killed with the objective being the killing of Jews, sadly tens of thousands of civilians died sometimes only because the Einsatzgruppen didn't have time to conduct them to the rear or worse, because they simply couldn't be bothered policing a particular area and wanted to move on.

Fraser was hated in his prime for good reason and nothing he did in later life made up for his actions in office so there's another comparison to be made in the same vein as my earlier comment. Holocaust deniers love to have socialite and noted anti Semite Michelle Renouf at their gatherings because she still affects the honorific "lady" and in their minds lends a certain gravitas to their dinners and lectures. So it was with Fraser, the so called bleeding hearts looking to mainstream their views were willing to ignore his former conduct simply because of his celebrity, what did Fraser actually do post 1983 besides pontificate?

And why would "many Germans" think the Soviets would behave so poorly?

Ah, that's right, because the Germans, under the leadership of your mentally-deranged heroes, had already demonstrated what would happen to the Soviets when the boot was on the other foot.

Get a grip, Jay. Your ideas are not merely wrong, they're close to madness.

otb,

1) Do not put words into my mouth or
tell me what I am an "ardent supporter of."

2) Do not speak on behalf of other people -
such as our government, other decent and
fair-minded Australians,
or what Mr Fraser may or may not have thought.

In other words -
Do not make assumptions about things you
know nothing about.

I get your personal views. We all do.
They haven't changed. They remain the same.
And we hear them over and over again.

Nothing new ever happens from you - not even on
a Memorial site such as this one
dedicated to our former Prime Minister -
where one would think just for one moment
you could be on your best behaviour without
twisting things.

Dear oh dear!

Jay, as a fanatical Nazi Goebbels chose to see it out to the end with his beloved maniacal leader, the equally crazed Hitler. On realising the end was nigh the half mad, drug endued, Gobbels along with his equally perverted wife butchered their five children rather than see them pass into a world free of Nazism!

Quotes of Goebbels
"I (Goebbels) am of the opinion that the greater the number of Jews liquidated, the more consolidated will the situation in Europe be after this war"

"A Jew is for me an object of disgust. I feel like vomiting when I see one. Christ could not possibly have been a Jew. It is not necessary to prove that scientifically - it is a fact."

"Jewry must pay for its crime just as our Fuehrer prophesied in his speech in the Reichstag; namely, by the wiping out of the Jewish race in Europe and possibly in the entire world"

"The Jews have deserved the catastrophe that has now overtaken them. Their destruction will go hand in hand with the destruction of our enemies. We must hasten this process with cold ruthlessness."

Okay Jay, Gobbles loved Jews and didn't know anything about death camps. Pull the other leg.

Jay,

One would think that Goebbels, with the resources that he had at his command could have made sure that his children fell into the hands of the British or have entrusted them to someone who would have looked after them, SS-Standartenführer (full Colonel) Otto Skorzeny for instance, a man in whom Goebbels could have placed full trust.

Fox, "a Memorial site such as this one dedicated to our former Prime Minister"

You are having yourself on. This is OLO, a public site for discussion.

Malcolm Fraser was a politician and he should be publicly accountable for his decisions and opinions. The Greens and you wouldn't be gushing adoration for Fraser if he didn't make mistakes in immigration policy that suited the Greens and your slant on it.

Now what about you list specifically where you part company with the Greens and specifically Sarah Hanson-Young, since you claim to be misrepresented in that regard?

It certainly appears that you and she are joined at the hip where economic migrants are concerned and on the endless-diversity -Australia-has-to have, to take a couple of examples.

Here is another website that should be of
interest:

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/politicalnews/malcolm-fraser-was-planning-to-start-a-new-political-party-before-his-death-20150320-1m46kd.html

otb,

Malcolm Fraser is dead.

He is no longer accountable for anything.

And, you need to stop gushing and focusing on
what you see as our former Prime Minister's
"mistakes" in immigration policy because it
doesn't suit your political agenda or your
narrow-minded slant on things.
Take off your blinkers and try living in
the 21st Century.

As for Sarah-Hanson Young and the Greens?
They are your obsession, not mine.
I am not "joined at the hip," with Sarah
as you claim.
It's you who brings her up every chance you
get. (probably an - "old-man-young girl" fantasy).
I dare say.
It's quite a common trend among certain types.
And it's you who needs to explain yourself.
Not me.

Although, I think I understand only too well.;-)

LOL, a new party? Bizarre. That proves Fraser had lost it.

Fraser would have been competition for the easily impressionable vote.

You and crazy Sarah Hanson-Young would have had Fraser's guts for garters.

otb,

Here you go -
Confirming everything I stated in my earlier post
about you.

As for Mr Fraser's political new party?
Perhaps I should send an email to Malcolm Turnbull.
It just may be the answer to the Coalition's woes.

Fox,

You have completely lost it this time. How is that 'memorial' to Big Mal going?

Now you are going to wrote to Malcolm Turnbull to sign him up for the dead guy's non-existent new party.

You will be writing to Elvis next?

Sorry all, make that 'write' in lieu of 'wrote'.

I have just finished watching the TV Memorial to
Malcolm Fraser on the ABC.
It was worth watching and made me realise what
a great man we have lost.
A man of compassion and a big heart.

The following website sums him up rather well:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-03-20/matthewson-malcolm-fraser-right-and-left-politics/6336146

"The death of Malcolm Fraser is a poignant reminder of a
time when it was not considered weak or permissive to be a
progressive in the Liberal Party; a time when a Liberal
politician and a government could be economically as well
as socially responsible."

"Such a combination should not be a relic of the past
to be wistfully remembered, but a feature of today's politics.
The sadness of Fraser's death is magnified by his loss as a
role model for modern Liberal progressives."

Malcolm Turnbull and others "waiting in the ranks" could
well take a look at Fraser's policy platforms for a new
party, and see what they can adapt and use in their
future policies -
thereby offering disheartened voters with
the current state of politics, and the 3 major parties,
perhaps a better direction for this country's future.
Big ideas often spring from little ones.

For me this discussion has now run its course.

I Thank you all for your time, and wish you all
a Good Night.

Craig, Is Mise, Paul.
If you don't want to talk about Nazis why bring them up in the first place? Godwin's law is commonly held to be the indicator that a discussion thread has outlived it's original purpose and in an online argument the first person to mention the war is automatically the loser.
It's not madness to quote facts as factual but it's utterly insane to hold onto fiction, or worse, Soviet propaganda as the basis of an argument.
I'll concede the points made in this article, Fraser was a pinko but he opposed the neocons and that's his only shot at redmption:
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/malcolm-frasers-late-burkeanism/

Go away Jay.

Fox,

With Labor notables Bob Hawke, Paul Keating and others worshipping Mal Fraser as the best Labor PM since John Curtin - with the added bonus that Big Mal reeled in Labor spending as well - the only question remaining is who will be telling Gough to get his butt out of the big seat in heaven to make way for Mal, their borrowed hero.

Still, the cupboard is bare where heroes of socialism are concerned, with the last two PMs being that ruddy fool Kevin747 and Galah'd (with thanks to Obama who did get her name right), with that bobble-headed jackass, L'il Willie Shorten aka 'Whatever she says' blocking the Labor leadership.

Interesting times when the leftists not only admit they were always wrong about Fraser, but that he was always a great bloke and their hero. What about all of those rotten things they said about him? Well, apparently leftists do treat their loved ones that way, just ask Kevin Rudd.

"Still, the cupboard is bare where heroes of socialism are concerned, with the last two PMs being that ruddy fool Kevin747 and Galah'd (with thanks to Obama who did get her name right), with that bobble-headed jackass, L'il Willie Shorten aka 'Whatever she says' blocking the Labor leadership."

It's laughable, really it is.

Here we have in the Abbott govt, the most extraordinary ineptitude. If one set out to construct a satire of a bumbling inept govt, one couldn't surpass the reality of the real thing.

It's startling....

Headlines like this abound - from AFR:

"Being governed by fools is not funny"

"A bit like the old story of the frog that gets boiled alive because the temperature of the water in which it sits rises only gradually, we don't seem to quite be able to take in the growing realisation that we actually are being governed by idiots and fools, or that this actually has real-world consequences.

We finish the week with a Prime Minister who has lost his bundle and is making policy and political calls that go beyond reckless in an increasingly panicked and desperate attempt to save himself; a government that has not just utterly lost its way but its authority; and important policy debates left either as smouldering wrecks or unprosecuted."

http://www.afr.com/opinion/columnists/laura-tingle/being-governed-by-fools-is-not-funny-20150319-1m2wd1

Poirot,

Malcolm Fraser at least sent Alan Cadman to talk to me about warnings of world ocean fish depletion and malnutrition amongst seafood dependent people. To my knowledge, no other leader has shown any interest in relevant solutions. Debate is virtually impossible to get underway even here on OLO where there are also frogs in the water beginning to boil.
So MF was more understanding and compassionate and sensible than some people alive today, here on OLO.

PM Malcolm Fraser also responded to my request for fairness to allow a promised tax deduction for investors in the Australian film industry. His treasurer John Howard had amended the legislation to allow a deduction the year after the investment in film production was made. I asked Howard to be fair but he said there was nothing he could do. I said there must be somebody who can help, and Howard replied by giving me the PM’s location the next day, a Saturday. I sent a telegram to a Robin Moore of the PM’s staff and gave a briefing by phone. Two days later on the Monday, PM Fraser made an amendment to the amendment and the deduction for the same year was allowed. So PM Fraser was fair and decent, especially to an ordinary citizen like me.

I think now there is need for honesty and decency and teamwork to address the numerous problems society is now faced with.
Questions that need to be answered should be answered without politics scaring researchers or influencing the answer.

There is need for teamwork locally, nationally and internationally.
Take the Middle East bloodshed. If most workers there had $100 a day take home pay, there would be no such unrest and fighting. People would be busy earning their income to buy food, instead of fighting.

If you study the world situation of WORSENING hardship it appears world war is inevitable, and soon. Hardship is causing violence and recrimination. Governments already have to contend with civil unrest and war.

I think Malcolm Fraser did his best. His name deserves respect.

We should all do our best.

Foxy, Beach is a supporter of The Australia First Party and is rather smitten with the fanatical raving, we can not call it policy, of fearless leader the party boss, Jim Saleam. Beach is particularly warm to party ideology and Jim's rantings where it involves non white immigration to this country, he, like boss Jimbo, simply detests it.
Beach does exhibit an overly fixated view of The Green, particularly Sarah Hanson-Young, has old Beach developed a unhealthy interest in young Sarah Hanson-Young and her cute policies, both of them? Is old Beach and admirer from afar, or more precisely from behind his keyboard? We can only speculate, unless of course old Beach comes clean on the subject. Beach is rather shy when it comes to answering questions, we can only try, here goes! Old Beach me lad, do you have the hots for young Sarah? Old Beach, do you want to romp in Green fields with young Sarah Hanson-Young?

JF Aus,

"I think Malcolm Fraser did his best. His name deserves respect."

I agree....and if you read my earlier posts on this thread, you'll note that I did accord him respect.

My last post was in response to otb's rant against Labor and "leftists" - just reminding him of the clown status of the the present govt - and the fact that respected Oz media (as well as some overseas) are now classifying them as fools and idiots.

Labor and the Greens cynical, cringe-worthy adulation and hero-worship of Fraser after death is due a little satire.

Although the ones most afflicted are the apologists for economic migrants and supporters of open door immigration.

The real Lefties would be rolling in their graves.

Good Morning Everyone,

I am surprised this discussion is still going.
Surprised but grateful - especially for the
well reasoned and intelligent comments.
The other kind - the mean-spirited ones that
unfortunately are a hallmark of certain types of people
in this country.
Well they remind me of the old adage -

"If it's yellow let it mellow.
If it's brown flush it down."

They're always brown - so we all know what to do!

When ya dead, ya dead. That's it.

The Government just found another half Million in Revenue. A lot of Charities that he was the Spokesman for will save too. Not on his half million retainer but also on Airfares & Top of the line 5 star accommodation when he went touring for Photo Ops.

Now if only we can persuade a few other ex PM's to go quickly. Think of the extra funds the Government could squander on propping up foreign Government with our Aid.

Foxy: I wish his family my Deepest Sympathy. May he Rest in Peace. Speaking ill of the dead is not just distasteful. It's cowardly!
Runner: Malcolm will stand before God like everyone else. Better to let Him judge the dead.

When ya dead, ya dead. That’s it.

OTB: There is far too much rewriting of history to suit present attitudes and spin. Students beware!

Oh Yes. Too true.

Foxy: Ben Eltham - a lightweight and clueless you say? Really? And on what do you base your comments?
His CV and staff profile at Deakin University say otherwise.

You would believe someone’s University Profile?

Paul1045: Fraser's support of the Vietnam War was wrong, no question about that.

Let’s not forget that Australia started it.

CM: Jay, with the greatest possible disrespect, I think your views are repugnant and not fit to be expressed in civilised company.

In other words. Not Politically Correct.

OTB: "a Memorial site such as this one dedicated to our former Prime Minister"

A sculpture of an outback dunny would be appropriate for all ex PM’s.

JOM: Craig, Is Mise, Paul. If you don't want to talk about Nazis why bring them up in the first place?

Deflection.

All Saints Day (Nov. 1st) and All Saints Day (Nov. 2)
are annual reminders to remember, honour, and celebrate
the dead. As is ANZAC Day and other national Days of
Rememberance. The ritual of consciously remembering loved
ones who have passed is an important spiritual practice in
most of our lives.

It brings death into the context of our daily experience and
possibly reminds some of us that dying is not the end.

"Labor and the Greens cynical, cringe-worthy adulation and hero-worship of Fraser after death is due a little satire."

Otb, is so obviously "out of the loop" - or he would understand that Fraser has long held the respect of the "left" and of those of the right who haven't morphed into right-wing extremists - ie, real "Liberals".

(Btw, did anyone watch Julie Bishop's reaction to Hockey's cringe-worthy "tribute" to Malcolm Fraser? - worth a look - and this is the abridged version)

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-03-23/julie-bishop-rolls-eyes-at-treasurers-budget-razor-comment/6340520

(Albeit, she's probably a tad tetchy upon learning this morning from Greg Sheridan of the Australian that further aid cuts are on the agenda in the upcoming budget...she knew nothing about it)

More ineptitude from the Abbott govt....

Dear Poirot,

It keeps getting worse.

These are not the first cuts either.

Perhaps, as the following link points out the
PM and his current government should listen
to the advice of their Foreign Affairs Minister on
Foreign Policy.

http://thediplomat.com/2014/12/the-australian-governments-shortsighted-view-of-foreign-aid

Maybe a couple of 'happy pills', a cold compress and a good rest for that Abbottophobia.

Federal Parliament has stopped today to
remember the life and career of Malcolm Fraser.
Mr Fraser will be honoured on Friday at a State
Funeral in Melbourne.

Malcolm Fraser lived a life worth remembering.
He leaves behind a great name and a legacy
of a great example. A man of compassion and
empathy for his fellow human beings.
A man with a big heart.

Article: Aid is something done during the good days, when loose change is aplenty. And then when the sun sets on the boom times, charity must come to an end. The money should be repurposed and spent in Australia’s “own backyard.”

I agree with that statement in the Article. Giving Aid is something that must be purposed & specific. When that specific purpose has been fulfilled it must end.

I believe Aid must only be used in cases such as in the Solomon Islands at present. When that country is back working again the Aid must cease. The Article mentions Korea & other Countries where Aid is still flowing after 50 years. This is much too long. We give Aid to Indonesia, so Indonesia doesn’t have to spend its budget on those places. They can use the money, saved by our Aid, to upgrade their Armed Forces. They chuck a tanty if we say we are reducing it. They say they won’t buy our Goods. Is Australia giving them money to buy our Goods? Does that make sense?

Foxy: Dear Poirot, It keeps getting worse. These are not the first cuts either.

Well I hope not anyway. Charity begins at home. You can’t help someone else if you can’t look after yourself first.

As far a Malcom Frasier goes. You & I have done as much as he did, in our own small way. We just didn't get well paid for it.

Dear Jayb,

I know you've got a great big heart.

I just wish you'd show it to us more often
on this forum.

No Jayb, nothing to do with PC, just repugnant and disgusting.

Craig, I think you'll find it has everything to do with PC, I've explained my position over and over, ignore the lies and postwar fiction,ignore anything written by aggrieved parties with an axe to grind, focus on what's known and not make assumptions, check everything against the world as we know it.
Explain to the group why you will only accept the Stalinist view of WW2?
See when you start chopping and changing, cherry picking bits and pieces from a movement here and a social phenomenon there you can tend to look a bit of a dill, like Fraser or for that matter the majority of post 1945 politicians.
So you're a liberal humanitarian whose view of history and standards for propriety in argument is based on adherence to Stalin's war propaganda? Interesting.

Foxy: Dear Jayb,I know you've got a great big heart. I just wish you'd show it to us more often on this forum.

Thank you Foxy. Attached to this big heart is a clear head. I to, would like to help the entire World, stop starvation, clean water, a job for everyone, no fighting or violence & no Religion too. Unfortunately, the reality is, it just will never happen, & we, as humans, have to accept that. Even though that hurts our hearts.

Too much of the Aid that is spread throughout the World is squandered, wasted, diverted, misused & Administered away. A few years ago Malcom Fraser, as Director or CEO of his Charity, went to an African Country to give out Aid to a School. (Photo Op) His entourage, Flights, Car hire, Security, 5 Star Top Suit, Hotel, etc, not to mention his flight home & back for his Daughters Birthday, cost tens of thousands of Dollars more than the piffling amount of Aid being distributed. This is what breaks my heart.

They don't care, as long as someone is giving them something for free & they really don't appreciate it when the last Media car drives out of the Compound. That's when the head man steps in & confiscates everything for his family. If the Country is Islamic then Allah has provided it. We have just paid our Jizyah Tax, as we should have, &, about time too & hurry back with more.

I have seen what the locals think of our Aid & us first hand. I've told you about my adventures with Aid in Malaysia previously.

Yes I have a heart, but, I have a head too.

I was of two minds whether to send this comment, or simply let it alone ? Anyway the decision is now made - I'm a dyed in the wool old Liberal from several centuries past, however Mr FRASER, a notable political figure no doubt, will never rate very high with me. However that said, I feel sorry for his wife Tammy and his extended family.

Firstly and by far the most consequential and momentous, it was he who was the major, international player who assisted that homicidal, but highly educated, misfit, Robert (Bobby) MUGARBE wresting power from PM Ian SMITH in Rhodesia ? Turning the most productive food producing nation in the entire African Continent, into a despotic dust bowl, occasioning thousands upon thousands of dead, at the hands of this awful man ?

Secondly and by far, less important, I was being punished for some alleged 'imaginary' administrative crime, by drawing close protection duties. On this occasion it was for Mr Fraser and his wife Tammy. On the various instances I needed to speak with him, I found him positively aloof, arrogant, and extremely 'icy', to a point I felt I was being dismissed on each episode ?

Not so Mrs Tammy FRASER, a really elegant beautifully spoken lady, with exemplary manners, and you felt she actually heard you, whenever you spoke with her ?

The only other political figure I found worse, was Gareth EVANS former Labour Minister, with the Foreign Affairs portfolio, who generally speaking didn't rate close protection, unless he was subject to a 'threat Assessment' ? With his attitude towards police who were tasked to take a bullet for him (pardon the dramatics, but it's fact!) you'd think he'd be a little more agreeable ? Politicians eh ?

Still, perhaps I'm quite wrong about Mr FRASER, as I've heard many others speak well of him ?

Before I finally leave this thread here's a
poem that I wish to share. It's by Mary Elizabeth
Frye:

"Do not stand at my grave and weep
I am not there, I do not sleep
I am a thousand winds that blow
I am the diamond glints on snow
I am the sun on ripened grain
I am the gentle autumn rain

When you awaken in the morning's hush
I am the swift uplifting rush
Of quiet birds in circled flight
I am the soft stars that shine at night
Do not Stand at my grave and cry
I am not there I did not die."

Paul
Australia First is basically old Labor as you well know, it espouses the progressive values of the late 19th century, they're not conservatives at all. Don't you think it a bit fishy that "Neo Nazism" always seems to rear it's head when the Liberals are in power? After all National Action grew under Fraser, the Palmer Coleman gang arrived with Howard and now we have Marcus Cornish and a re-animated Ross May spruiking "Squadron 88". I don't think it's a coincidence that at every turn these "Nazis" attack Australia First and other patriotic groups and leave the Lefties, the Jews and the minorities alone, do you?

Jay, I'm not remotely concerned with your justifications, your views as expressed here and on other threads are repugnant.

o sung wu

you r a straight honest shooter. I admire that.

Jay I don't know how you can be bothered with that arrogant fool, Craig Minns.

What a perfect example he is, of all that is wrong with academia today.

Dear Jayb,

A good head and a good heart are always
a formidable combination.
(Nelson Mandela).

Dear O Sung Wu,

Thank You for sharing your experiences with
Mr and Mrs Fraser. I also have had the pleasure
of meeting both Mr Fraser and his wife at several
formal occasions. I found them both to be quite
charming, very easy to talk to, and very friendly.
Of course we were in a very pleasant social situation.
Mr Fraser did make a very impressive speech.
(He'd done his homework) which was a nice change
from the one Jeff Kennett made in later years (he
hadn't bothered to do his homework).
Anyway, I guess we can only take people as we find
them.

The State funeral is on Friday in Melbourne.

Here is hoping that the luvvies and comrades don't disgrace themselves by disrupting the proceedings with their cheers and boos as they did at Whitlam's funeral.

Hasbeen,
I imagine Craig's office has a wall covered in little post it notes with PC buzzwords printed on them, all connected by lengths of string so he can see the intersections of different concepts and easily determine what we are allowed to say and what's verboten.

Ha! The ultimate irony is that the same people who were gushing over Fraser are now bubbling over with praise for Lee Kuan Yew, what was it he stood for again? What's that logo in the background?
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03241/lee_kuan_yew_3241641b.jpg
Oh yeah, THAT logo:
http://40.media.tumblr.com/7fe793509a02203daa20b5006bdd210e/tumblr_ncyg3qQZNo1tjbks9o1_500.png

Oh yeah...this is cool, Mal and the local Asian fascist knock a few balls around in '76:
http://www.afr.com/content/dam/images/1/3/o/j/6/9/image.imgtype.afrArticleInline.620x0.png/1426725035907.jpg

Imagine all you like Jay, your ideas will remain repugnant.

You can say what you like about Lee Quan Yu, but he made it work.

Singapore, the safest city in the World. No unemployment, Highest Scholastic Standard in the Asian Area & free. If you are falling behind, free Tutor, World Class Medical & Surgery, & Free, Practically no Crime at all. Drug free, or Bang! One day Arbitration, binding on both Parties, Great Transport System & cheap, First two houses are Free & you can sell both for a profit. No Racism or Religionism. (Indians, Chinese, Malays, Europeans & Every Religion imaginable) No flies or Mosquitoes, (I helped. Fogging my 5 Acres in 68) I killed a fly in 2000 at Tiger Balm Gardens &dozens of people came from everywhere to look at it. I was a hero for killing it. The Manager came out & apologized to me. Our meal was free.

If only Australia could emulate Singapore. Our Politicians are too busy vying for "one upmanship & in fighting" to achieve anything. Australia is going down the gurgler fast curtsy of our Politicians, of all persuasions.

Well said, JayB.

Malcolm Fraser's daughter has made an emotional
call to an ABC Melbourne radio station to
Thank the community for their overwhelming support
and warm wishes in the wake of her father's death.

After listening to the v ery many well-wishers of
people calling in to 774 ABC Melbourne on the morning
of his death Angela Marshall called in and spoke to
host Jon Faine.

She explained how overwhelmed the family was by all
the kind, kind, thoughts and everyone's warm wishes and
how much it meant to the family. She exaplained that
her father was a man of many different sides, not just
the political side... that he touched people and it was
nice to hear such a great response from people.

The State funeral in Melbourne will be on Friday morning,
27th March 2015 at 11.30am at Scots Church.
It should be a very moving service for a man who touched
all of our lives.

Scots' Church is located on Collins Street
in Melbourne and is a congregation of the
Presbyterian Church of Australia. It has been
an icon in Melbourne for over 100 years.

A condolence book is available to sign at the
welcome desk in the Church foyer for the Right
Honorable Malcolm Fraser.

From March 21 - 27
Satruday - 11am - 3pm
Sunday - 10am - 4pm
Monday, Tuesday, Thursday - 11am - 2pm
Wednesday 11am - 4pm

http://www.businessinsider.com.au/malcolm-fraser-obituary-2015-3

JayB,
Well as Mussolini said "Fascism is not for export".

JOM: Well as Mussolini said "Fascism is not for export".

He made the trains run on time. His biggest problem was him. He was a Narcissist.

Singapore is a Non- Politically Correct Democracy.

There are only generally only two types of punishment in Singapore. It starts at $S25 & goes up by adding a “0” to the end for each subsequent offence for personal offences. For Corporate Offences it starts at $S2500 for minor Managers & $S25000 for CEO’s. It goes up by adding a “0” each subsequent offence. Oh & 25 whacks with the Rattan in Public as well. A great deterrent, don't you think.

The Tax is a bit high though about 75% of Gross earnings for everybody regardless & no Deductions for anything.

Australia could learn from that. I’ve always said 10% same as the GST on Gross earnings & no Deductions for anything.

Sorry about Malcolm’s Funeral Foxy. I can’t make it. I only go to my Army Mates Funerals anyway..., been a lot of them lately.

Jay I posted a number of quotes by your favorite Nazi Goebbels all anti Jewish and full of hate speak. These, and there are others, clearly show Goebbels was a ranting fanatic, and a willing partner in the mass genocide of Jews. Like all leading Nazi's, including Hitler, Gobbles old boy knew it all!
Care to make comment, or are those quotes more Stalinist lies?

Thank you RUNNER I appreciate that. Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know, you can only call it as you see it really ? Mind you he's not the only high ranking politician who treated us badly ? Even though we're there 'exclusively' as their own personal barrier, from some rabid lunatic wanting to make a name for themselves !

Indeed FOXY, I'm sure he's a decent enough bloke at a social gathering ? But us police being engaged in his personal 'close protection'- I suppose to him, being the PM, we represented more as a hindrance to the man, rather than some sort of social embellishment.

Paul
You brought up Goebbels, not me, what documentation can you provide to support the belief that all or any of the NS leadership were mentally ill? In your opinion they were "mad" and "fanatics" but we all know that position is normally adopted by people who wish to signal their social status to others. Take the risible "Reclaim Australia" movement, they're publicly Anti Fascist, Anti Racist, Zionist and pro "Judeo Christian", this is status signalling and scapegoating to the same degree as the Left employ such tactics.
Anti Fascism in the absence of Fascism is no different to Anti Islamism in the absence of Islamism, it's trivial class warfare fought by members of the same upper middle classes.

Jay you claimed Goebbels was witty with practiced oratory and intelligence, indeed you described Goebbels as a decent, moral family man. You went as far as describing Goebbels as a superior politician ans a better man than Malcolm Fraser.

I will concede Goebbels could string a line whilst ranting his perverse hate speak to the masses. As a politician Goebbels was willing to foster the most outrageous lies against Jews and others, all to insight hate. Goebbels would produce the most outlandish propaganda and call it truth, going as far as producing films depicting Jews as verminous rats! Are Jews verminous rats?
You claim Goebbels knew nothing of the mass murder of innocent people, when it is clear he did, can you refute the quotes I posted, No! He murdered his own children, yet you call him a "decent, moral family man." Is that the actions of a decent, moral family man?

Here are those quotes again;

Quotes of Goebbels
"I (Goebbels) am of the opinion that the greater the number of Jews liquidated, the more consolidated will the situation in Europe be after this war"

(What did Goebbels mean by the word "liquidated"?)

"A Jew is for me (Goebbels) an object of disgust. I feel like vomiting when I see one. Christ could not possibly have been a Jew. It is not necessary to prove that scientifically - it is a fact."
(Why could Christ not possibly been a Jew?)

"Jewry must pay for its crime just as our Fuehrer prophesied in his speech in the Reichstag; namely, by the wiping out of the Jewish race in Europe and possibly in the entire world"

(How must Jewry "pay for its crime?") (How were Jews to be "wiped out" in Europe?)

"The Jews have deserved the catastrophe that has now overtaken them. Their destruction will go hand in hand with the destruction of our enemies. We must hasten this process with cold ruthlessness."

(What is the process of "cold ruthlessness"?)

Do the above quotes indicate a normal, mentally stable person, or a raving lunatic.

cont.
.

cont

Jay, you may be an avid reader of Nazi nonsense such as Hitlers 'Mein Kampf' and the ranting of Herr Goebbels, but just reading such rubbish does not make it true. Unless of course you want to believe it.

Dear O Sung Wu,

We've seen on this forum that people in
different walks of life can interpret the
same phenomenon - whether its a Prime
Minister's policies, a religious doctrine,
of anything else - in very different ways.
In other words, people tend to see things
from a viewpoint of subjectivity - an
interpretation based on personal values and
experiences.

Our views are shaped by what our past experience has
prepared us to see and by what we consciously or
unconsciously want to see.

Your experience is different from mine. As I
stated earlier I had the pleasure of meeting him
several times under different circumstances - and
found him to be a very approachable and inspiring
man. As Nelson Mandela stated - "A good head and
a good heart are always a formidable combination."

The following website may be of interest:

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/former-pm-malcolm-fraser-loved-a-beer-with-average-joe-on-election-campaign-trail/story-fniOfit3-1227275545047

Which shows that Malcolm Fraser was a man of many different
sides. (As most people are).

Paul,
Sadly for the law abiding Jews of the time the people their Communist brothers were antagonising weren't a bunch of mentally unstable,low IQ Arabs and their attacks on the German people blew up in their faces in spectacular and gruesome fashion.
Are you asking me whether I think the NS were justified in allowing the German people their revenge upon the people who'd all but destroyed their society?
To cut a long story short, yes, the ordinary Jews paid the price for the actions of Jewish communists and criminals but then again so did the German people suffer because of the actions of the NS and their supporters.
Unlike you I can't separate the war up into blocks, in the interests of their own survival the Germans were right to liquidate European Jewry, but I can't condemn the actions of the people of Eastern Europe in 1945-47, by the same token it was in their interests to liquidate the German ethnic group from their soil.
Jewish activists tried to destroy Germany and German culture, National Socialist activists tried to destroy the nations and cultures of Eastern Europe, it's impossible to say one was worse than the other.
I wouldn't be much of a racist if I just focused on one aspect of the war and judged one side more leniently than the other, would I?

(Do) I (Jay) think the NS were justified in allowing the German people their revenge upon the people who'd all but destroyed their society? YES YES YES YES YES!

Well Jay justified in murdering millions of innocent people, men women and children! Not only did they murder German Jews they also murdered millions of Jews from all over Europe including Poland, France and many other countries. What was their crime? They also murdered Gypsies, homosexuals, the mentally and physically retarded, POW's anyone and everyone they took a dislike to.

The rest of your post is absolute garbage!

Jay, I support you right to think and say what you like, but anyone who finds this garbage repugnant please let you thoughts be known.

JOM: What I understand from your post is that only Jews were Communist, that's why they murdered them. No ordinary Germans were Communists, is that right? Could have been worded better. You have let anger cloud your thoughts.

Jayb, No, Jews were targeted as a group because of the crimes of some of their number, not just Communists it's exactly the same mentality displayed by the Eastern Europeans in their mass murder and expulsion of millions of Germans after the war.
As a racist myself it's a perfectly rational and comprehensible outlook, I'm not "insane" and neither were the NS leadership...nor the Zionists in 1948,the Zimbabweans in the 1970's, the Sudanese in the 1990's etc. To expel an alien or unwanted group there has to be some plausible pretext for the action, the accusations made by the NS against the Jews had their basis in fact, some Jews were actively trying to destroy Germany, they were involved in organised crime and they did dominate academia, the media and the legal system.
Everything Goebbels said in public regarding the Jews was true up to a point,it wasn't true of all Jews of course but the final solution was intended to prevent any Jew from ever being a problem in Europe again, it had no other objective beyond that.
In the end the NS program was found wanting and far from changing the face of Europe to some Aryan utopia it would undoubtedly have led Europeans down exactly the same path they now walk, multiculturalism, mass immigration, destruction of the nations, out of control socialism and a PC police state, that's why we racists describe the Third Reich as "The first EU".

Jay, I do not believe you can justify the unjustifiable by pointing to past or future wrongs committed by others. There is no direct relationship between the action of Nazi's in Germany 1930's-40's and say the Zimbabweans in the 1970's, although one could find some common elements. It is a nonsense to claim one of the crimes was being dominate in academia, the media and the legal system, you forgot to add the financial system as well. If the action of a few justifies retribution against the many, then you could say the United States would have been justified in the 1920's-30's in persecuting Italian/Americans as many of their "race" were involved in organised crime. Closer to home, Australia would be justified in persecuting Muslims today because some of their number are involved in criminal acts.
Hitler had already formulated an irrational hatred of Jews long before his rise to power, which gave him, and the like minded the opportunity to firstly scapegoat a minority, and then persecute that minority, using the state apparatus. Just to digress, can you explain why the Gypsies had to be exterminated. The crime of Gypsies was being different, Nazi's would murder anyone they did not like.
There is absolutely no evidence that National Socialism through success would have lead to a Europe or a world today, as you put it "it would undoubtedly have led Europeans down exactly the same path they now walk, multiculturalism, mass immigration, destruction of the nations, out of control socialism and a PC police state". Yes, there is much that is wrong with the world today, but I speculate that had these fanatical extremists been successful the world for the vast majority would be a meaner and darker place than it now is, assuming our forefathers had survived some form of ethnic cleansing, as imposed on society by these radicals.
The relevance for today is that the same people, although often presenting under the guise of being conservative moderates, would do very much the same, given the opportunity, that is the nature of the beast.

Malcolm Fraser's state funeral at Scots' Church
here on Collins Street in Melbourne clearly
illustrated the very high regard that so many
people had for our former Prime Minister.
The Church was packed and there were crowds
lining the streets outside. The service itself was
very moving and emotional. A beautiful and fitting
service for a man much loved by so many.
People had travelled from overseas and inter-state
to attend. Ordinary folks came as far away as
Geeolong.
The playing of bag-pipes at the end of the service
added a mournful touch.

May He Rest In Peace.