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The Forum > General Discussion > The Ukrainian crisis

The Ukrainian crisis

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Well into the fourteenth century the Grand Duke of Lithuania, Prince Gediminas still put his faith in Perkunas, the god of thunder and forests, who ruled over many other gods and goddesses in the Lithuanian pantheon. When emissaries of the pope attempted to convert the prince to Christianity, the prince told him he would like to be treated by them as he treated those within his domains. He did not interfere with the Christians who worshipped their God according to their laws, and he hoped that he and his subjects would be left to worship God in their own way.

In 1386 the dominion of the pagan gods came to an end. The Lithuanian ruler Jogaila (1351-1434) married the Polish princess Jadwiga. He was three times her age, and it was a political marriage. Jogaila became Catholic, and Lithuania and Poland were united. The new country was not as tolerant as in pagan times, but it was still a refuge for dissenters and the persecuted and freer than the surrounding countries.

Skip a few centuries.

Stanislaw Poniatowski, the last king of Poland, had magnificent goals. He wanted all children including children of the peasantry to have an education, to abolish serfdom and convert Poland into a democracy. He was inspired by the French and American Revolutions. Unfortunately the surrounding countries Prussia, Russia and Austria didn’t want this. In 1792, 1793 and 1795 three partitions made Poland disappear from the map. Most of Poland/Lithuania became part of Russia. That part of Russia was called the Pale. Jews were generally forbidden to live outside the Pale.

My grandfather was born in Riga, Latvia and my Uncle Harry wrote the story of his life titled ‘From Riga to Lake Placid’. According to my uncle’s research life became much harder for Latvians under Russian rule. Under the czarist occupation they changed from an easy-going, tolerant people to a suspicious, intolerant crowd.
Posted by david f, Wednesday, 25 February 2015 3:26:01 AM
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At the end of WW1 Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia and Finland all became independent states. As a result of the Nazi-Soviet pact of 1939 Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia were occupied by the Soviet Union. In September 1939 the Nazis invaded Poland from the west, and the Soviets from the east and divided Poland between them. On 22 June, 1941 the Nazis invaded the Soviet.

At first the Nazi advance went rapidly. In September 1941 the Nazis took Ejsjyszki and murdered the 80% of the population that was Jewish. Many others in their hatred of the Russians and the Soviet occupation joined up with the Nazis. It was a horrible war, and Soviet resistance became more effective as the population became aware of the Nazi brutality. After WW2 Poland regained independence, and the Baltic states remained part of the Soviet until the Soviet imploded in 1989. During the Soviet occupation many of the Baltic peoples were relocated to Siberia.

Eastern Europe has had a horrible history. Peoples have been suppressed, and Russia has the historic memory of invasions from the west. Not only Napoleon and the Nazis but also Wilhelmine Germany, the Teutonic Knights, Poland and others. I think it is quite reasonable for them to be frightened of another invasion and to be concerned that Ukraine might be the staging ground for an invasion.

One can remember past injustices and past glories. The past glories were generally accompanied by injustices. To try to regain those past glories is a recipe for war.
Posted by david f, Wednesday, 25 February 2015 3:33:11 AM
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As I always say, the human animal,species, is as territorial as any other species on the planet, history shows this clearly.

We also, need access to land, water and resources the land provides, to survive. That's the law of nature and we are not exempt.

As for sharing it, equally, fine, as long as the cake in a particular territory, will stretch to the grossly overpopulated people.
A big case there for mandatory world-wide contraception being allowed for women. One way, to assauge one reason for war.
If not, the warlords will simpily rise up and take want they want.WAR.

Another reason we don't like sharing when survival is at stake, is
because we are biologically programmed like every other species, to
provide and ensure the survival of those genetically closest to us.

Our children, our extended family and our tribe.

When there is plenty to go around, we are reasonably tolerant and willing to share, but it is a shaky territorial truce at the best of times, as can be seen by our territorial war now being waged with Isis.
Posted by CHERFUL, Thursday, 26 February 2015 11:57:45 AM
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Don't look to the emotional reasons for war, hatred , intolerance etc.

Look to the biological. Hatred comes from fear, and the fear is
the Fear of non-survival of oneself and our biologically closest.
Plus, some people are cruel, physcopaths on top of this, as well.

I suspect there are such physcopaths attracted to the territorial
Sunni war, They lead because, they win, and this is because they will stop at nothing to bring opposition under control.

Nevertheless, it is, at it's core a territorial war caused by the
Sunnis being made stateless by the American War on Suddam Hussein. In regard to sharing, to stop war, who is going to give
the Sunnis back all the terrritory that has been given away.

Nobody, they have to fight a territorial fight for land and resources control
Posted by CHERFUL, Thursday, 26 February 2015 12:08:49 PM
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I realise I have not commented on the Ukrainian Civil War
as such in the above, but it also, is a territorial war.

As stated in historical readings above, some of these wars
are precipitated by ethnic, territorial wars going back centuries.

Both sides usually end up believing the land and territory is theirs
over time.

Ireland and the IRA demonstrates this clearly, given that the
British invaded Ireland in the 1600's. they were followed
by hundreds and thousands of British settlers who built homes and
established towns there.

Now, those same previously British settlers, claimed sovereignty over the land of Ireland, in the Parliament. After four centuries and being born there, they felt they had A territorial right to do so.
Not surprisingly the IRA even after 4centuries didn't see it that way.

This mirrors what is happening in Ukraine.

It was also the reason Germany felt Poland rightly belonged to them
because it did, in previous centuries before war changed things.
Posted by CHERFUL, Thursday, 26 February 2015 12:44:08 PM
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