Happy New Year Everyone!

I would like to raise the topic of teaching Asian Languages
in our schools, and see what people think.

Most of our trade and commercial relationships are with
Asia - so doesn't it follow that we should focus quite
heavily on understanding our region and the countries in
our region better?

If we're going to teach foreign languages
in our schools shouldn't many of them be Asian languages?
Finally, is it not important for companies wanting to
do trade in China to know Mandarin?

This is after-all tied in with the future job prospects of our students.
Giving them an extra advantage.

What do you think?

Foxy,

See this ranking of the difficulty of learning different foreign languages (for a native English speaker) from the US Foreign Services Institute

http://www.effectivelanguagelearning.com/language-guide/language-difficulty

Most of the main Asian languages tend to be very difficult for English speakers to learn and require a great many hours for reasonable competence, hours that would have to be taken away from the rest of the curriculum. Yes, for people who are talented at languages and have good prospects for a career that might require one of them, but a waste of time to make Asian language learning compulsory for all.

Happy new year, Foxy,

Important or not, I oppose any compulsion - including the very demand to attend school.

But if someone wants to learn more language(s) - then let them, why not?

As for the future, neither of us can tell how it will be.

Will Asia and/or China and/or Australia still exist?
Will there still be trade?
Will people still be doing jobs?
Will there be people at all?

Perhaps the best is to allow the children to play and enjoy themselves because by the time they would be grown up the human race and/or its civilisation will be out of existence.

To illustrate, in the 1960's, during the cold war, American scientists developed the strongest ever computer, which was said to be able to answer any question. So president Johnson was invited to test it and typed his questions which were subsequently converted into punched cards and fed to the computer.

Question 1: Will the United States of America still exist in 2000?
Computer: Yes

Question 2: Will we have enough food to eat in 2000?
Computer: Yes

Question 3: How much will a loaf of bread cost in America in 2000?
Computer: 2.50 Rubles

All the Asians you'd need to talk to in order to do business can speak English or have interpreters at their side so learning a second language is just for fun or for the mental exercise, like when I was at school.
The problem is that schools will allow Chinese kids to take Chinese language classes as an instant pass, at my kid's high school the bias towards and favouritism shown to the Asian students is breathtaking.
My daughter put her name down for Italian for LOTE this year but was allocated to Chinese, literally nobody wants their kids in the Chinese classes so Italian was over-booked.
They will try to push kids who do well in Italian or who speak it at home out of that class because it's "not fair" but the Asians get an Automatic A in LOTE.
In the end my wife simply said "She's not doing Chinese, she got good marks in Italian last year and you're setting her up to fail LOTE, fix it please", and they did.

Foxy, "This is after-all tied in with the future job prospects of our students. Giving them an extra advantage."

Wherever did you get that idea?

Sometime in the past the Queensland government and education bureaucrats foisted Japanese and Chinese onto State primary and secondary schools, deliberately displacing and discontinuing what were insultingly referred to as 'traditional' languages. Out went the baby with the bathwater.

It was expensive chaos and wasteful. Just by way of example, our local primary had Japanese and the neighbouring secondary school, Japanese. Think about it.

What about FIRST and foremost institute an independent comprehensive audit, of the failed leftist Progressives' social (and educational) re-engineering experiments of the recent past?

What is it about the leftists that they cannot learn from their mistakes? Perhaps it is because they always refuse to be accountable for the unforeseen negative consequences of their idealism.

Foxy,

I am fluent in Hindi and Urdu (basically the same) and I can get by in some of the Hindi based languages, particularly Marathi, the language of Maharashtra state where I spend most of my time.

It's handy socially and people appreciate one speaking their language but mainly, having found a 'captive' English speaker they want to speak that language.

I first learned some Japanese in Japan as a soldier in the Occupation Forces and later I studied it at Sydney Uni.
Our lecturer stressed that we would only learn conversational Japanese as it took many years of study (and he had his PhD) to get a grasp of the subtle nuances of meaning in the language.
In short a Japanese businessman could appear to say one thing and in
fact mean something entirely different.
However if dealings were conducted in English or through an interpreter then what was said was what was meant.

Some other Asian languages are similar but not so nuanced.

In Japanese there are no 'cuss' words just almost imperceptible degrees of politeness until one descends to the equivalent of
"F---Off"

I'm also fairly good at French and use it a lot in India.

Just as an aside, my wife also speaks French and when we watch a French movie on SBS we find ourselves speaking French in the add breaks. Some of the sub-title translations are a hoot.

All in all, foreign languages are no burden to carry but the world of business uses English, you'll get a better deal buying things if you can haggle in the local lingo with shopkeepers, taxi drivers and stall holders etc.

@ Onthebeach

<<Foxy ...wherever did you get that idea?>>

Probably from New Matilda!

Australian school children would be required to learn
an Asian language under a proposal put forward by
Julie Bishop. Ms Bishop apparently intends to push the
plan as Coalition policy before the next Federal Election.
She stated -

"I believe that we should have a much
greater focus on a second language," she told Sky News.
"In fact my view is it should be mandatory. It should be
an Asian language. I wouldn't necessarily say it has to
be Mandarin. Japanese, Indonesian - there are a number of
Asian languages that would be important. Such a policy would
help Australia engage with its increasingly important
region," Ms Bishop said.

"It would be a brilliant form of soft diplomacy if we had a
large body of people in Australia who were able to speak an
Asian language," she said.

Ms Bishop also wants to see an expanded two-way student
exchange program.

Dr Yoko Kinoshita, Senior Lecturer at the University of
Canberra had this to say:

"Cultural attitudes are crucial for Australia in this
Asian Century - specifically, the cultural attitudes of
Australian young people. Be it economics, business, politics,
or defence - the basis of any relationship is the people
behind it who are driven by values and beliefs."

"Individual beliefs about cultural dimensions have a
fundamental impact on our position in the region."

"Australia needs people who can face unfamiliar values
and practices with a healthy respect and tolerance, not
arrogance and fear."

How do we foster these qualities? Obviously, Dr Kinoshita
and Julie Bishop feel that - "Language education grounded in
cultural awareness, has much to offer."

Dr Kinoshita points out that:

"Quality language education is not just about gaining fluency.
Rather it challenges students to think outside their native
environment, and be curious about unfamiliar cultures.
In language study students learn far more than is being
taught. With skill-based training as a launchpad
they get a glimpse of life within a different cultural
framework, experiencing affinity with unfamiliar words - and
people."

http://theconversation.com/want-to-get-ahead-this-century-learn-an-asian-language-6247

Foxy,

Your zeal for multiculturalism and endless diversity that doubtless leads you to recommend compulsory Asian languages. The unlucky students who have had their choice removed are the collateral damage of your idealism, right? Your ideals, their sacrifice.

That also could limit their choices in the tertiary education they pay for. Collateral damage again of totalitarian compulsion - the North Korean people management strategy and all for their good, of course.

Where oh where are the thousands of Queensland school children who were corralled into Asian languages and still are?

Only one of the hundreds of school friends of my own children is applying his Japanese. The remainder freely admit their very rudimentary grammatical Japanese wouldn't allow them to buy a bus ticket.

But wait, the exception is the son of a US missionary who grew up in Japan post WW2 and his Aussie wife (the mum), also a missionary and who had an ear for languages. Japanese was spoken as a second language at home as his parents felt Japanese themselves and wanted to maintain their fluency.

This young man has been living and working full time in Japan since he graduated from an Australian university. His work has nothing to do with Australia, cultural exchange or trade. His example proves the very opposite to the claimed benefits of compulsory Asian languages education.

What I object to is (1) the proposed compulsion, Foxy, (2) the removal of choice (what if the student was heading for medicine or other professions and needed more science instead) and (3) the corralling of students by removing other language options.

It would be reprehensible if the unsuccessful and wasteful forced Asian languages strategy of the previous Peter Beattie (Mr Teflon) Labor government in Queensland was ever extended elsewhere.

Jay of Melbourne, "The problem is that schools will allow Chinese kids to take Chinese language classes as an instant pass, at my kid's high school the bias towards and favouritism shown to the Asian students is breathtaking.
..
They will try to push kids who do well in Italian or who speak it at home out of that class because it's "not fair" but the Asians get an Automatic A in LOTE."

Agree with that too - also apparent in the political correctness of Qld State education.

Just to lift the tarp to show the cultural politics played for years by the previous Labor premier, Peter 'Mr Teflon' Beattie,
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/05/03/1019441434554.html

It seems to me with recent studies that more resources is needed in training primary school teachers to teach English. That would probably help our young a lot more. Learning to count to ten in Indonesian was a great boom for Indonesian teachers but really achieved nothing for students in the 90's.

More effort is also needed in universities compromising in passing foreign students in exams just so they don't lose business.

Brisbane City Local Government Area, from the 2011 population census

A hefty 17.4% of Brisbane residents were born in non-English speaking countries. 28.3% of residents were born overseas.

• 151,921 persons (or 51.5%) stated they spoke a language
other than English at home
for Queensland,
• 319,949 persons (or 36.0%) stated they spoke a language
other than English at home

The top five non-English languages spoken at home for
Brisbane City LGA were:
Language spoken
1. Chinese (4.4%)
2. Indo Aryan (2.3%)
3. Vietnamese (1.5%)
4. Southeast Asian Austronesian (1.1%)
Asian sub-total, 9.3%
5. Italian (0.8%)
-from Brisbane Community Profile report

Melbourne
"Almost a quarter of Victoria's population was born overseas, and the city is home to residents from 180 countries, who speak over 233 languages and dialects and follow 116 religious faiths. Melbourne has the second largest Asian population in Australia, which includes the largest Indian and Sri Lankan communities in the country."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Melbourne

Sydney
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Sydney

Dear Foxy,

<<Australian school children would be required to learn an Asian language under a proposal put forward by Julie Bishop.>>

If only forcing children to learn something they don't want had the same penalties as forcing them into sexual activities... I am pretty confident that many children, if given the choice between those two evils would have preferred the latter.

So Ms. Bishop, to fulfil her ambitions, effectively wants to rape children en mass, day in and day out, doing to their brains what paedophiles would do to their genitals. Having been thus treated, would it be a wonder if the first thing those children do when grown, will be to distance themselves from their molesters and leave Australia for good? This will be the only "benefit" which Ms. Bishop will reap when all her ambitions go up in smoke. A lengthy time in prison would be more appropriate for her.

Hi there FOXY...

A great topic, thank you. I say this with the greatest degree of sincerity FOXY - I'd like to see 'English' taught or re-taught, in our schools !

Having being placed in the invidious position of teaching and marking examination papers on law subjects in our Academy. I was astonished at the number of (adult) people, who were unable to reproduce a number of pages, of chrononologies, in answer form, in a clear and concise manner.

These people ostensibly, held a degree ? Most couldn't transcribe even basic conversational language, without a plethora of spelling errors ? There was little evidence that any of them had an understanding of syntax or punctuation etc. Yet as I said earlier, these people were graduates from eminent Australian Universities ?

When questioned, most replied; at University little weight was placed on our spelling or punctuation, rather they were marked more on their deductive or reasoning processes ? Well I was stunned, I really was ?

Ms Bishop is completely wrong on this topic, as I stated ages ago on this very forum. Take a heap of teenage boys, working class, not academically gifted, which is the bulk of kids. Sit them down and force them to learn something in which they have absolutely no interest and can see no purpose, week after week, month after month. Next you will express surprise when they bunk school, have no interest, cause trouble, act rebellious, leave school as soon as possible.

They tried to force me to learn French and the above is exactly what we did. Had you let them read books about cars, engines, or other topics which might interest them, you would likely have enthusiastic scholars! Next you wonder why they are rebelling and don't even notice that it is grown ups claiming to know best, who are the problem.

Spot on, Yabby.

"What we want is to see the child in pursuit of knowledge, and not knowledge in pursuit of the child."

George Bernard Shaw

The "cultural exchange" with Asians is entirely one way.
A guy I know went to Japan in the mid 90's on a one year deal to teach English, he ended up staying almost 15 years and marrying a Japanese woman. He barely spoke a word of Japanese when he arrived and even after 15 years living full time in Osaka he quickly hit a glass ceiling, he couldn't get a decent paying job and get ahead because even though he was fluent in Japanese he wasn't a native speaker and most importantly wasn't Japanese by birth.
None of his Japanese friends would vouch for him or go into business with him, as a westerner he was seen as a liability because of the racial prejudices of the Japanese establishment.
He and his wife returned to Melbourne in 2010 but even though she spoke excellent English she hated it here and left him after only six months, he ended up with nothing to show for his 15 years abroad save for a divorce and a fluency in a useless foreign language so he went back to his former, meagre existence doing extra work for TV and bartending.

.

Dear Foxy,

.

Thank you for your kind New Year wishes. Please accept mine in return for you and yours. May all your wishes come true.

As you are perhaps aware, I live in Paris and while the French are very shy about speaking English, most of them understand it fairly well because a foreign language is compulsory in France right from kindergarden (age 3 to 5) where the foreign language taught is invariably English . This obligation carries-on through primary school (age 6 to 10). Then in college (age 11 to 14), midway through (age 13 to 14), a second foreign language becomes compulsory. Traditionally, the better students take German as their second foreign language. The others take other European languages such as Spanish or Italian. Though, over the past few years, Mandarin is becoming more and more prevalent as the second language.

Students then go on to lycée (age 15 to 17) where two foreign languages remain compulsory, students having the choice of languages limited only by whatever languages the particular school they attend has to offer. Not all schools, whether public, private or public-subsidised private (mainly Catholic) schools offer the same languages. At present, not all colleges and lycées in France are able to offer Mandarin.

Having worked as a globe trotter in international business for half a century, living outside of Australia all that time, I appreciate the cultural value of being immersed in different languages, customs, cultures and legal environments. I find it extremely enriching from a purely personal, perhaps I should say human, point of view. Naturally, it is an advantage to be able to converse with potential business partners in their mother tongue but, to me, that is just the tip of the iceberg. There is much more to it than that.

I think it is important for Australia which is still very much a European nation, despite its growing Asian population, to acclimatise itself with its Asian environment. Cultivating understanding is a prerequisite to harmonious relationships.

It is not necessary to “love thy neighbour”. It is crucial to understand him.

.

Not for me thanks Foxy.

I had enough trouble picking up pigeon in New Guinea. That has only a couple of hundred words, & a bush highlander in Rabaul would be conversing in just a couple of weeks.

Dear Banjo Patterson,

Thank You so much for your post.

I was becoming somewhat disheartened however you've
been like a breath of fresh air - and I feel revived.
I grew up in a household where several
languages were spoken - and I considered this quite
normal. I think that part of the problem in this country
may be that the teaching of languages has only been
done on a superficial level. And this needs to be corrected.

I shall have to do much more research on this topic -
and see what suggestions do the
language experts have to improve the teaching of languages
within our education system. Not only the teaching of
English - but the entire spectrum of languages. Learning
is not always easy - however, it is indeed worthwhile
and opens up an entire world - if done properly - be it
science, mathematics, literature or languages. You need the
right teachers and the right tools, and of course funding.

Once again - Thank You.

Banjo
Australia isn't part of Asia, it never has been, I don't know if you noticed on your travels but we're in the southern hemisphere and Asia is in the north?
Should Argentina and Zimbabwe also embrace their "Asian environment"?
There's no reason other than greed to look toward Asia and absolutely nothing we can learn from the masses of low IQ people to the north, "culture" is something only Europeans have.
Asia is Islam and variants of Confucianism, neither of which can be compared to European cultures, Asia is ritual, Europe is liberated thought.

.

Dear Foxy,

.

Having said all that, perhaps I should answer your question : “ Should Asian Languages be mandatory in our schools? ”

I must confess that the method preconised by Julie Bishop of rendering an Asian language compulsory as a second foreign language, in Australian schools, in order to promote “soft diplomacy” with our Asian neighbours, reminds me of Mao’s notoriously disastrous project of the “Great Leap Forward” which, as we all know and deplore, ended up in the “Great Chinese Famine”.

Even Dr Yoko Kinoshita’s, declaration in her article published by “The Conversation” (for which you kindly provided a link) that “We need strong leadership from government” makes me cringe a little.

I don’t think we need “strong leadership” from government. I think we need “strong support” from government whatever language we choose as our compulsory second language. I see government’s role in this domain, as in most others, as that of a “facilitator” rather than a “leader” and certainly not that of a “strong leader”.

In my view, a more acceptable model than Mao’s “Great Leap Forward” would be Adam Smith’s “invisible hand” whereby students choose whatever second foreign language they feel is in their best personal interests. It is their future which is at stake and they should be empowered to make that choice.

I am more confident in Australian students making the right choice for themselves than Julie Bishop making it for them. Whatever is right for them, individually, in my opinion, is globally right for Australia.

There is little doubt in my mind that Asian languages will become increasingly important over the coming years. I anticipate that more and more Australian students will choose them as a second language without any prodding from the government.

It would be a mistake to force everybody to study an Asian language, at the exclusion of all others, simply because Asian languages are becoming increasingly important. All languages have their importance, in my humble opinion, and none should be neglected.

.

.

Dear Jay Of Melbourne,

.

You observe :

« Australia isn't part of Asia … »

That’s correct, Jay. But it’s closer to Asia than it is to Europe and our relations with Asia have long surpassed our relations with Europe in just about every domain except that of defense where we depend heavily on the US.

You ask :

« Should Argentina and Zimbabwe also embrace their "Asian environment"? »

They don’t have one. We do. The Japanese bombed neither Argentina nor Zimbabwe. They bombed Australia which was within their range.

You consider :

1. « There's no reason other than greed to look toward Asia … »

That is incorrect, Jay. The main “reason” we “look toward Asia” is for trade (commerce, buying and selling). Unless you live in autarky, I imagine you occasionally buy some food, drink or clothing etc. yourself, Jay, probably in exchange for money. If you do, that is not called “greed”, it is called commerce. A reciprocal exchange of items or products, without any monetary transaction, is not called greed either. It's called “trade”.

2. « There's … absolutely nothing we can learn from the masses of low IQ people to the north …»

That is incorrect, Jay. As my good friend, One Under God used to say :

« A fool can learn nothing from a wise man but a wise man can learn something from a fool »

3. « "culture" is something only Europeans have »

That is incorrect, Jay. Asia also enjoys a very rich culture of the arts, opera, music, literature, cuisine, etc. The Chinese script is the oldest continuously used writing system in the world.

4. « Asia is Islam and variants of Confucianism … »

It is also Hinduism, Taoism and Buddhism, among others, which collectively make up Eastern philosophy and religion, all of which have nothing to envy of European cultures and religions.

5. « Asia is ritual, Europe is liberated thought. »

Europe also has its ritual and Asia its liberated thought: through the balanced opposition of the yin and the yang.

.

*I think we need “strong support” from government whatever language we choose as our compulsory second language.*

Your problem is right there Banjo, ie forcing students who have no interest or inclination whatsoever, to learn a second language, in a country like Australia.

Firstly, our situation cannot be compared to Europe, where people only need to travel a few Km, in order to face the language barrier. Travel around a small country like Switzerland for instance and you can face speaking German, Italian or French, all in the same tiny country. In that case yes, there is a need for students to learn other languages, unlike in Australia.

Trade. There is nothing that you cannot buy and sell in English. It is the language of trade. Yes, other languages can be helpful. So how many % of the Australian population will encounter that problem as an insolvable issue in their lives? Given our high rate of immigration, we already have a huge number of people who are bilingual. Training those who have no interest, is a complete waste of resources.

Make language training available for those who have an aptitude and interest. That is all that is required.

Utter nonsense. Anyone knows that to make yourself understood in any foreign country, should you be so foolish as to travel to one, all you have to do is shout.

If they still cannot understand you, shout louder.

Any business that has to be done with foreigners, can be done by fly in fly out workers or import some foreign speaking people on 547 visa's as skilled speakers.

Dear Banjo Patterson,

I agree with your take on government involvement in
language teaching as does Joseph Lo Bianco - Professor
of languages and Literacy Education at Melbourne University
and former director of the National Languages and Literary
Institute of Australia. You may be interested in the following
summations from the link given below:

"If you look across the world in English-speaking countries
they struggle to get languages taught but in non-English
speaking countries there's an immense amount of language
often including English. So it is because English is like
an auxillary language across the world. Bulgarians who
study English as a second language imagine they will be able
to use it in Zimbabwe, in Thailand, in Singapore and Japan."

"So while English does have this ability, the problem that this
produces is a laziness and complacency about language studies."

"Part of the problem is that "People think if English has this
function in the world why should I learn other languages?"

"That causes a big problem for us because we need other
languages."

Prof. Bianco states that "We don't need everyone to do
Asian languages. English is a very important language
worldwide, it gets people around. However we need to be
able to enter other people's communities and societies on their
own terms and that means knowing their languages. Obviously
most of our trade and commercial relationships are with
Asia so we have to focus very heavily on understanding our
region and the countries in our region better."

"While English does have this capacity it limits you to just
certain kinds of functions. We need to know societies well.
Imagine trying to know Chinese Society just through English.
Sure, English allows you to get into hotels and get
through airports but it won't help you with many things in
China."

In any case Professor Bianco does not think that a "quick
fix," attitude is the solution to the teaching of languages
in this country - the following link tells us why:

http://thediplomat/2014/07/australias-foreign-language-deficit/

Oooops - my mistake - the link should read:

http://thediplomat.com/2014/07/australias-foreign-language-deficit/

English has a place in our schools as a compulsory subject, like basic mathematics it is needed in everyday life.
Any other language studies should be by the students choice and with access to the internet that choice should only be limited by availability, for example Konkani is well catered for even though it is spoken by only 2.7 million.

I think it would be a much better idea if we made English a compulsory language in our schools.

Of course, first we would have to make sure the teachers could actually use the language, before they became teachers.

If we want a second compulsory language, lets make it an important one like math. If more people, particularly the ladies actually understood math, they would be much harder to scam. If everyone had adequate math the scam of global warming could never have got off the ground.

Hasbeen, "I think it would be a much better idea if we made English a compulsory language in our schools"

An outcome of the indigenous policies (combined with multiculturalism) of the Whitlam and later Labor governments is that generations of aboriginal children did not receive English language education and are functionally illiterate and unable to participate fully in the world outside their communities.

Of course they are most likely functionally illiterate in their mathematics too.

General Comment
The OP proposed Asian language as a compulsory second language in schools. The opposition is to that and not to languages per se. So the strawmen of some posts is dishonest.

Asians already make up a sizeable rump of cities and there are also large numbers of international students and workers on temporary visas who are Asian (and many of whom are trying to win citizenship).

Arguably, Australia already has plenty of exposure to Asian culture.

Study of languages at primary and secondary levels does not produce any fluency at all. However a forced second language that MUST be Asian as the OP demands, will discriminate against most students, and favour Asian students in obtaining the necessary OP for tertiary entry.

It is more social reengineering, where such social tweaking has a sorry record for its unforeseen negative consequences.

Banjo Patterson,
It's about 10,000km from Melbourne to South Africa, China and Chile, the distance is basically the same to Africa, Asia and South America and since Australia is a continent all on it's own there's no reason beyond greed to engage with Asians or to give them special attention.
You mentioned that in France most students study other European languages, the distance from Paris to Delhi is about 7,000 km, Melbourne to Delhi is 10,000 km, by your logic the French should be more engaged with Indians than Australians are.
This whole debate is really about whether the tastes and attitudes of upper middle class dilettantes and adventurers should be imposed upon the lower classes, at our own expense mind you.
We don't aspire to your social mores or accept your world view because all we see when we go outside are Asians dealing drugs to our kids, defrauding,robbing and raping our neighbours, undercutting us in business and driving down the standard of living in our suburbs.

OTB,
Language studies courses are also elitist because they have the annual trips abroad and exchange programs which only the wealthy families can afford, if parents want their kids to study a second language they should have to pay for private lessons, such courses are nothing but a frustrating waste of time for most state school kids.

Sweeping statements and generalisations have
no place in discussions. They must be backed
by facts and evidence.

The following link is from the Department of Education
in Western Australia which states:

"Languages education is an integral part of a balanced
school curriculum. It plays an important role in
preparing students for effective participation as global
citizens of the 21st Century."

"School communities work collaboratively to increase levels
of participation, engagement and achievement in languages
programs from primary school through to year 12."

"The main languages taught in Western Australian public
schools are Aboriginal languages, Chinese, French, German,
Indonesian, Italian, and Japanese."

"The benefits of learning languages include the ability to
communicate within and across cultures, an understanding of
and respect for diversity and difference, an extension of
literacy skills and the development of cognitive and
critical thinking skills. Competence in a second language can
also enhance employment and career prospects."

http://det.wa.edu.au/curriculumsupport/k10syllabus/detcms/navigation/languages/

Foxy, the above is not evidence. It is opinion, highly likely written by somebody who makes a living from teaching languages and so has a vested interest. Why don't you go out and ask those most affected, namely students. You might get a shock.

Foxy,
Yes and when you go to another country and strike up a conversation with your year nine level language skills they're going to laugh in your face or scream at you; "Buy something or go away!".
Hand gestures, pointing at a picture and mime are the least embarrassing ways of ordering a bowl of Pho or getting a Taxi to Ginza.

Dear Yabby,

The link I gave was from the Australian Curriculum
Assessment and Reporting Authority.
You can access their website on Australian
Curriculum: Languages via the ACARA website. It's
listed at the end.

And as far as students go - I am quite familiar
with what they think. I deal with various levels
on students on a daily basis.

Here's another link for you that may be of interest:

http://studenttravelplanningguide.com/printguide/global-trends-in-foreign-language-demand-and-proficiency/

Dear Jay,

I've travelled all over the world and have never
had the experience you've described. Perhaps
it's you who needs to change or improve.
There may be something lacking in your attitude
and manners.

Dear Foxy,

If demand is as great as you claim, then there should be no problem with letting student decide. No doubt they will flock to study languages. Your article refers to the most ambitious students, not to students in general.

I have at no stage suggested banning languages. I have suggested not forcing children to learn something in which they have absolutely no interest, which is a reason why they drop out of school, pay no attention and head off to the park to cause mischief. Teach them something that they enjoy and might use in their lives and you might actually land up with more willing students.

So my answer is simple. Let students decide, not opinionated adults who don't know what is best for them, even if they think so.

I know a very successful teacher who has had very great success with students that other teachers could not motivate; as an example, he had one boy who had no interest in school at all, aged 12.
He asked the lad what he liked, "Cars",
so he arranged for the boy to go to a local vehicle repairer and put in his time pulling a wreck to pieces, the lad was happy, the men at the works helped him with things that he didn't know but it didn't take the kid long to realize that if he wanted to work with cars he needed to know more.
The upshot was that after a month he came to the teacher and asked him could he come back to the maths class, then it was to English to improve his reading etc.
End result, he became proficient in most subjects to pass on to secondary school and eventually get an apprenticeship in the trade that he loved.
Couldn't happen in Australia as this sort of teaching would be prohibitive; OH&S for one.

Dear Yabby and Is Mise,

Your posts have raised some very valid points.
Thank You both.

I know of some schools that have recognised the
students' right to participate in the operation of
their institution. In one school a student advisory
committee meets with the principal every week to present
him with ideas about curriculum, activities, and
problems affecting student life. The principal uses these
meetings to inform students on current issues and to
consult with them on future plans. Students feel that
they have a voice in what is happening in their school.

Clearly, students do need to be included - and teachers
and schools need to up their ante - if they want to
create an emotional climate for learning. We can all
remember the teachers who made an impact on us (for
better or for worse). Teachers can open or close the minds
and hearts of children.

Much of what you say IS MISE is true. It seems to me there's too much red tape, too much bureaucratic inertia, to ever advance into such a pioneering form of education ?

If I recall correctly there was this quite elderly Chinese gentleman, who uttered some scholarly locution thus;

'I hear and I forget',
'I see and I remember',
'I do and I understand'.

A situation that I reckon just might fit IS MISE's narrative precisely ? Still, one must first consult the 'Australian Teacher's Federation', to ensure that it's in accord with their current 'Union Pedagogic Policy' and the 'School Teacher's Advancement Paradigm'?

O sung,
Don't forget to consult your Greens dominated Parents and Friends group or School Council, it's also pretty hard to get kids to go to school when so many of the lessons and all the extra curricular activities revolve around "progressive" political causes.
My older daughter was completely disillusioned by the end of year nine, she saw the foreign students,"Green Team" and "Rainbow Committee" getting all the attention and funding while her school aerobics team, who'd come runner up at the national championships weren't even mentioned at assembly or on the school website. They got no help or encouragement whatsoever from the principal, I think a lot of the expenses for the team were actually covered by the P.E teacher and the former student who was helping coach them, the P.E teacher resigned shortly afterwards.
I'd name and shame the school but my youngest is starting there this year and sadly it's the best state high school in the district.

Jay Of Melbourne,

+1 to the sentiments expressed in your post. Different State, same experience.

Foxy,

The argument isn't about language education. What you need to defend is your demand for compulsory Asian languages in schools.

You also appear to want an Asian language (which?) as Australia's second language. For what possible purpose?

.

Dear Jay Of Melbourne,

.

You observe :

« It's about 10,000km from Melbourne to South Africa, China and Chile, the distance is basically the same to Africa, Asia and South America and since Australia is a continent all on it's own there's no reason beyond greed to engage with Asians or to give them special attention … the distance from Paris to Delhi is about 7,000 km, Melbourne to Delhi is 10,000 km, by your logic the French should be more engaged with Indians than Australians are. »

.

Your geography is impeccable, Jay. But you forgot to mention that Dili in East Timor is only 720 km from Darwin. Jakarta, the capital of Indonesia, with its population of 10 million (almost half the population of Australia) is only 2,700 km from Darwin. South-East Asia is literally on our doorstep compared to Africa and South America that you mention.

But geography is not the only determining factor in our historical relationships (or lack of them) with other countries. Australia was a British colony for 113 years (1788 – 1901) and gained its independence 114 years ago. We are just one year older as an independent nation.

It was only after the end of the second Vietnam War in 1975 that we reoriented our trade and diplomatic relationships away from Europe towards our Asian neighbours. The movement was accelerated by the opening up of China to the rest of the world in 1978 when Deng Xiaoping liberalised the Chinese economy. All this coincided with the UK joining the European Common Market in 1973 which made it imperative for us to seek alternative markets.

You wrote:

« all we see when we go outside are Asians dealing drugs to our kids, defrauding, robbing and raping our neighbours, … »

If you look a little closer, Jay, you will see that most crimes committed by Asians are among themselves (“triads”, etc.). Most rapes occur among members of Australian families.

Our British parent deported 162,000 of our ancestors as convict-slaves to develop their colony. We have to forgive and forget, Jay.

.

Observation on geography: if one crosses the the river that runs through Istanbul then one has gone from Europe to Asia, or vice versa depending on which side one is on to start.

Good Morning Everyone,

I raised the topic of "Should Asian Languages be
mandatory in our schools?" for discussion, and it
seems to have broadened out to include languages
in general.

I got the idea from listening to
our Foreign Affairs Minister - Julie Bishop speak
on the subject. It's been quite a revelation reading
the various posts. Interesting to also read
the problems encountered by education experts and the
students themselves - in the links I found and read
on the web.

Certainly there are problems involved -
but most experts seem to agree that the teaching of
languages has many benefits - which include the ability
to communicate within and across cultures, an understanding
of and respect for - diversity and difference, an extension
of literacy skills, and the development of cognitive and
critical thinking skills, to name just a few.

Experts also
point out that competence in a second language can also
enhance employment and career prospects.

The following link is worth a read for those who have the
interest and the time on this controversial issue. It's
a Report compiled by the Australian Curriculum Assessment
and Reporting Authority on the Australian Curriculum regarding
languages - the problems involved and the steps that will
be taken to improve things - regarding teachers, and the
study of languages for students.

http://www.acara.edu.au/verve/_resources/Languages_-_Shape_of_the_Australian_curriculum.pdf

It's worth a read.

acara should be sacked.

When will the public and the community most affected be directly consulted on education policy?

What about the thousands of students who are underachieving, or falling through the gaps and the thousands more who leave school functionally illiterate in the essentials, maths, English and civics to participate fully in society?

Have you worked out how the compulsory Asian language will affect that? Or will the failure and self-harming numbers be added to as the collateral damage of more social experimentation?

The ideal of a totally diversified Australia will have to wait.

May I politely suggest that the link I gave by
the Australian Curriculum Assessment and Reporting
Authority be actually read prior to posting.
It answers a lot of the concerns being expressed.
Also just an equally polite suggestion - it is
far more beneficial to a discussion if instead of
simply criticising (that's easy), and slinging
the usual - how about offering
some alternative solutions. Anyone can criticise -
but it does not achieve anything constructive or
add anything of substance to the discussion -
especially if one is expecting a response.

Foxy,

I started to wade through the link but, frankly, I soon lost interest as it struck me as an impractical wish list of 'could do, if only we had the finance from the taxpayer'.

Nowhere did I see any reference (in the turgid prose that I read) to the students being effectively fluent in English.

If I might make a suggestion?
As over 50% of the Australian population are partly of Celtic descent that the Celtic languages be offered in any future curriculum?

Ridiculous?

No more ridiculous than offering languages with which they have no cultural connection.

Somewhere in the report there may be a mention of no compulsion but I didn't see it, but then I may have dozed off.

Foxy,

You are not reading and responding to any of the criticisms of your proposed mandatory Asian languages and as a second language for Australia.

I don't imagine that you read the ACARA report before you posted it. Or else you wouldn't be imagining that it supports your views.

For others, the ACRA report reeks of the leftist 'Progressivism' of six years of Labor government. An excerpt from the politically correct gobble-gook of the Rudd era,

"ACARA considers that the curriculum development proposed in this paper will make a difference to languages learning in Australia because it:
• recognises that languages learning is for all students in Australian schools who bring their individual linguistic and cultural profile to their learning, whether this is English or the target language or various combinations of languages
• articulates a clear commitment to and positioning of Aboriginal languages and Torres Strait Islander languages"

It is so typical of leftists that they always assume to know what is best for others and they do not believe in asking the public, because they always know best, of course.

Sack them all and institute some much-needed direct consultation with the public and the sections of the community most affected - parents and students.

Meanwhile, there are thousands of students who are underachieving, or falling through the gaps and the thousands more who leave school functionally illiterate in the essentials, maths, English and civics to participate fully in society.

It is known that indigenous children are among the worst affected as a direct result of extreme multicultural policy that put indigenous language ahead of English, often to the extent that 'whitey' English wasn't given any priority, being 'dissed' instead.

So what about setting aside the politics and the education departments and teachers extracting their digits to achieve a standard of education we can be proud of world-wide, and one where thousands of young lives are not heading for the scrap heap as is the inheritance of previous years?

FOXY I did read that report tabled by ACARA, and I'd probably have to agree with some of it in principle ?

However, before we (the education authorities) embark upon another language, I believe we should first ensure ALL students achieve an acceptable standard in our official language, that of ENGLISH. Both written and in it's verbalized form. Anyone who hopes to embrace any occupation in this country, without even a basic ability of written or spoken English, will surely find it almost impossible to prevail.

I realise many educators and others consider it trendy, to have a capacity to communicate effectively in another language, whether it's European based or Asian. However, without an already good comprehension of English, particularly grammar, well you can simply forget it, as it will prove very difficult indeed to excel in any foreign language !

I'm a great believer that we should require our often 'unionised' schools, to make sure ALL kids are taught the singularly necessary; reading, writing and numeracy competencies first. Without these very basic levels of expertise, our kids will find it hard to get anywhere, either scholastically or vocationally.

Our gaols are full of people who are inordinately deficient in one form or other, in basic literacy or numeracy, or often both ? I firmly believe our children should have to achieve, 'a government established criterion' embracing all three basic literacy and numeracy competencies. Thereafter, by all means include another language, even two, in their areas of interest and/or their studies.

Dear Is Mise and O Sung Wu,

The Australian Curriculum Assessment and Reporting
Authority (ACARA) in the report that I got from the web -
makes it quite clear in its introduction that it will work with
state and national authorities as well as organisations to
develop strategies to aid the provision of high quality
language learning for all young Australians.

It also states that language learning is for all Australian
schools --- whether this is in English, or the target language
or various combination of languages. Their aim is for a
broad-based curriculum to increase the benefits of
learning languages no matter which languages they may be,
including English.

It goes into more detail - however, I shan't list everything
here - it's in the given link.

Foxy,

Is their aim to offer all students a chance at a language of their choice or will most schools only be able to offer one or two choices?

What do they say about compulsion?

What do you say about compulsion?

I can see the necessity for compulsory English but compulsory (or voluntary) Mandarin could be rather useless as Mandarin may not be understood in a lot of China, and if understood may be ignored as English often is in Wales.

Chinese Languages.

"Official languages:

Standard Chinese (Mainland), Cantonese (Hong Kong and Macau), English (Hong Kong), Portuguese (Macau), Uyghur (Xinjiang), Tibetan (Tibet), Mongolian (Inner Mongolia), Zhuang (Guangxi)

Indigenous languages:
Achang, Ai-Cham, Akha, Amis, Atayal, Ayi, Äynu, Babuza, Bai, Baima, Basay, Blang, Bonan, Bunun, Buyang, Buyei, Daur, De'ang, Derung, Dong, Dongxiang, E, Chinese Pidgin English, Ersu, Evenki, Fuyü Gïrgïs, Gelao, Groma, Hani, Hlai, Ili Turki, Iu Mien, Jingpho, Jino, Jurchen, Kanakanabu, Kangjia, Kavalan, Kim Mun, Khitan, Lahu, Lisu, Lop, Macanese, Manchu, Miao, Maonan, Mongolian, Monguor, Monpa, Mulam, Nanai, Naxi, Paiwan, Pazeh, Puyuma, Ong-Be, Oroqen, Qabiao, Qoqmon&#269;aq, Northern Qiang, Southern Qiang, Prinmi, Rukai, Saaroa, Saisiyat, Salar, Sarikoli, Seediq, She, Siraya, Sui, Tai Dam, Tai Lü, Tai Nüa, Tao, Tangut, Thao, Amdo Tibetan, Central Tibetan (Standard Tibetan), Khams Tibetan, Tsat, Tsou, Tujia, Uyghur, Waxianghua, Wutun, Xibe, Yi, Eastern Yugur, Western Yugur, Zhaba, Zhuang

Minority languages:
Kazakh, Korean, Kyrgyz, Russian, Tatar, Tuvan, Uzbek, Wakhi, Vietnamese

Main foreign languages
English,[1][2]
Portuguese (in Macau)

Sign languages:
Chinese Sign Language
Tibetan Sign Language
Taiwanese Sign Language"

"....China has 292 living languages according to Ethnologue."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_China

Dear Is Mise,

They actually list the languages in the link.
Go back and try reading the report again.
It will give you a better understanding.

See you on another discussion, I'm done with
this one.

I'd like to Thank all those who contributed.

Cheers.

Foxy ducks again.

Foxy,
Do you believe in compulsory teaching of Asian languages or any compulsory language teaching?

Dear Is Mise,

I don't duck. However seeing as you ask
so nicely and politely - I shall reply and
then I shall move on.

Should learning a second language be compulsory
in Australian schools?

Yes - but with the following provisos -
which Prof. Joseph Lo Bianco outlines:

"All students should experience well designed and
supported language programs, taught by well-trained and
supported language teachers in schools that actively
support language teaching linked to universities that
are fully committed to widespread and successful language
study."

"It is worth reiterating why this is important. The
principal reason is to do with the deepest purposes of
education itself, to instill knowledge, to deepen
understanding, to stimulate reflection and to foster skills."

"Languages are intimately linked to the essentially
humanistic cultural and intellectual reasons for making
education compulsory. Every effort to redress the persisting
under performance in language education is amply justified."

http://research.acer.edu.au/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1072&context=resdev

Dear Foxy,

<<Languages are intimately linked to the essentially humanistic cultural and intellectual reasons for making education compulsory.>>

So the bottom line is that in your view, cultural and intellectual reasons justify violence against children and their parents.

We should learn to read and write Asian languages. But as I understand it most Asian languages are tonal: the same set of phonemes can have drastically different meanings depending on the intonation they are given. By all accounts, tonal languages are bloody difficult to learn to speak if you're not brought up from a very young age speaking them.

To be fair, they don't have it much easier coming the other way. English is notoriously difficult to learn as a second language because many of our words don't follow simple phonetic rules: consider through/trough/tough as an example.

Teaching children a second language from an early age has been shown to have a positive impact on their entire education. I think kids should be taught Latin: you only have to read most of the posts around here to realise that grammar hasn't been taught well in our schools for a very long time. There's nothing like trying to conjugate Latin verbs to teach a kid about grammar. I daresay some of the old dogs around here could benefit from learning a few new tricks about basic sentence structure, if only they could be persuaded that they don't already know everything worth knowing.

.

Dear Foxy,

.

Thank you for raising this important topic. I was not aware of Julie Bishop’s project. It merits further research but while I am willing to vote for a compulsory second language at high school level, I firmly oppose any obligation that this should be limited exclusively to Asian languages.

I have no objection to the government recommending Asian languages provided it lays out all the pertinent facts, for and against, in an objective manner. Naturally, there should be no discrimination of any sort among students based on choice of language.

Happily, we enjoy a democratic political regime in Australia and this should be preserved above all other considerations, however important they may appear to Julie Bishop. Dictatorial methods have no place in a democracy.

We have just had an example here in Paris, yesterday, of people wanting to impose their law on four of France’s most famous cartoonists who worked for France’s leading weekly satirical newspaper “Charlie Hebdo”. They and eight others were ruthlessly mowed-down by a couple of self-appointed “terrorists” armed with a Kalashnikov, in the newsroom of the newspaper. Their unique fault was to have drawn satirical sketches of the prophet Mohammed published in “Charlie Hebdo” ten years previously.

Whatever the motivation of the "terrorists", an act of this nature can only be interpreted as a refusal to recognize the freedom of the press and to recognize the freedom of expression - both of which are rock-bottom foundation stones of democracy.

Allow me to take this opportunity to express my gratitude to Online Opinion and The Forum for existing and offering us the means of freely expressing our ideas and opinions - however trivial, outlandish, thick-headed, obtuse, disrespectful or satirical they may (often) be - this thread being no exception.

JE SUIS
CHARLIE

.

"JE SUIS
CHARLIE"

+1

Good idea, the teaching of Latin.

One of my Professors at Sydney was a Latinist of repute and he attended a seminar in Paris at which Latin scholars from all over the world were assembled.
They soon discovered that they could not communicate in the spoken word as each country/region had developed differing pronunciations, Catholics speaking 'Church Latin' could get along but often with a bit of difficulty.
They could all write brilliant notes to each other but the upshot was that all speaking was done in French.

On the broadening of learning etc., why not have compulsory Non-Euclidean Geometry in all schools?

English can suffer similar problems, imagine a lad from deepest Somerset talking to a lass from Glasgow if they were not educated in Standard English.

JE SUIS
CHARLIE

+ 2

http://twitter.com/LucilleClerc/status/552961721959473152

Nice though the sentiment be that <<Break one,(and a) thousand will rise>> :)

The cold hard reality is that the birth rate for those who believe in Allahu Akbar and, whoever insults his Prophet ...should be eliminated -- is many times a thousand ...and the borders of France are porous.

Dear Banjo Patterson,

Thank You for your kind words.

And your well reasoned and logical thoughts.

I totally agree with you about Asian Languages.
The ACER link that I gave clearly indicates
that experts do agree that there should be
a full committment to widespread language
studies - not just Asian - that they should be
well-designed and supported, and taught by
well-trained and supported language teachers in
schools. And who knows if every effort is made to
redress the persisting under-performance in
language education then we may succeed where we have
failed in the past. It's worth a try - and as Prof
Joseph Lo Bianco indicates - this effort will be amply
justified

JE SUIS
CHARLIE

+3.

I remember being forced to learn latin. I remember the hours of sitting there like a parrot, repeating over and over the same rubbish, with no interest by any of us teenage boys to learn it. It was forced on us by adults who thought they knew better.

We would sit in class passing notes to one another, about the new raft we planned to build after school to sail down the river, or about the sports we were playing.

This thread has shown me why kids rebel at school and why so many fall off the rails. I had hoped that adults would have learned something in the 40 years since I went to school. Seemingly not. Next those same adults will be surprised when a whole lot of kids tell them to stick their education. You and your compulsion are the problem, not the solution.

Yabby,

I loved Latin and studied it voluntarily, our Latin class was held after normal school hours and as a consequence only those who were interested attended.
From my Latin studies a whole new world of Ancient History opened up, an interest that I have maintained to this day.
I am totally against compulsion in learning apart from the 3Rs.

As everybody knows, I'm a 'dumb bum' ? But if I could master another language in which I could speak and write effectively, it would have to be the most beautiful of all languages...the French !

and;

Because of long periods being exposed to the criminal law, understanding and writing Latin would have to be high on my list, essentially for vocational reasons. Further, there's a certain 'romance' ensconced deeply, within Latin also I believe ?

The only language that should be mandatory in our schools should be English.
Im all for teaching Asian languages in our schools but it should be an optional subject.
Lets face it...unless you use these languages regularly at home or in business you quickly forget what you have learnt so mandatory lessons are better used increasing our kids knowledge of maths and science.

It is rather old hat and narrow-minded to imagine that Australia is part of Asia so take any (?!) Asian language - or Japanese, the once very hip LOTE amongst educators -who never go near the business world, but heard that Australia trades with Japan.

The test of the worth of such advice is whether the persons who are giving it have heeded their own 'sage' opinion and are now fluent themselves and presumably benefiting in the career from it. As might be expected, free advice is not usually worth that much anyhow.

Then there are those cringing leftists who aren't that keen on English and the traditions that might come with it.

Students must pay their way in education so it is high time that the 'experts', politicians and educators, strove to consult directly with them on what THEY want and then put their hearts and backs into ensuring effective, efficient delivery - value for money in fact.

This is the sort of information that students are aware of (guess how) and use:

http://news.sciencemag.org/social-sciences/2014/12/want-influence-world-map-reveals-best-languages-speak

Students do not need to listen to politicians. The reverse is true and the gap in understanding is enormous, and reprehensible too.

So true Crowie, use it or lose it is a real fact.

When I did my flying training, we had to get to the best part of second year university aerodynamics & physics in 14 weeks. At just 19 I was fresh out of school, & a year of BSc, so my math was OK, but some new intake were late 20s, & 2 never really had enough math anyway.

We also had 3 Lieutenants join us. They had the necessary, but almost a decade out of date. One of the other younger ones & I ran remedial math/physics classes 3 or 4 nights a week to help these people get back what they forgotten.

Looking back now it seems ridiculous that the RAAF flying school, [where the navy sent us to learn a bit about flying], didn't run enough straight math classes, but perhaps they wanted to see who could handle problems, & how they did so as part of the process of training their officers.

What ever it was, almost a third, who had no trouble with the flying, were put off course, because they couldn't get up to speed with the math involved, quickly enough.

If a second language is to be learned, then Indonesian would be a good choice, as it is spoken by a country important to, and near, Australia. Indonesian is similar to Malaysian (another country important to Australia) and is the easiest Asian language for English speakers to learn.

But before making learning an Asian language compulsory for Australian students, I suggest some cultural training. Teach students about the customs and culture of countries of our region and how to communicate in international English.

The Australian government's New Colombo Plan is intended to give students exposure to cultures in our region. I have proposed extending this on-line:

Presentation notes: http://www.tomw.net.au/technology/it/international_elearning/

Formal published paper:

Worthington, T. (2014, August). Chinese and Australian students learning to work together online: proposal to expand the New Colombo Plan to the online environment. In Computer Science & Education (ICCSE), 2014 9th International Conference on (pp. 164-168). IEEE.
http://dx.doi.org/10.1109/ICCSE.2014.6926448