First it was the teachers in a top end Brisbane school, who complained about a modest pay increase, the worst in twenty years mind you, but still in the order of 3.45% I believe.

Now it's the armed forces complaining about a 4.5% pay increase over four years.

Are these people stupid. Can they not see where we are headed. Can they not spot the signs of the train wreck headed our way!

With something in the order of ten thousand coal miners jobs lost in QLD alone in the past 18 months,or so, combined with the unreported contractor businesses and jobs that have also no doubt gone with them, and the looming chaos that's ahead with the withdrawal of our car industries, I just can't believe these people are not happy just to have a well paid job.

Times have changed, whereby you can't just quit one job and start another. Those days are gone again.

Talk about all take no give

Unfortunately if you are in a secure job, paid by the government etc all you can see is:
low interest rates, cheap overseas holidays, cheap goods from overseas etc etc
so the reality is these people can't see past their own circumstances which currently are the best they have ever seen, despite increases in utility costs.
When half the country is unemployed and the government has to start retrenching because they have no incoming tax revenue from the unemployed only then will these people get on the same page as the rest of private enterprise Australia.

Indeed Rehctub, I just can't understand why all those greedy workers don't just say
" Ok, no more pay rises. I will stay as I am for the good of the country."

Yeah right.

Ar Suze, you're so predictable in your response.

Perhaps you should revisit the situation in a few years and see where things sit hey.

At no time did I say no more pay rises but, if you remove your bias you will actually see that to just have a secure jobs in the next few years will be a god send.

Don't believe me, just keep dreaming of your world that only ever goes up, never down.

You may also try to broaden your horizons for a while and consider the 10,000 miners who don't have a job anymore, let alone a pay rise. Perhaps you could stop worrying about our faulse world for a while and spare a thought for them, many of which either have no job, or a far less secure and paying job.

It always amazes me how people who have their jobs provided think. They are happy to take the pay rise when workers are short, but to think they may have to give a little back when things slow. Unthinkable!

Give and take should be just that, not take and take again.

Rehctub, are you suggesting the rest of the workforce should forego any pay rises unless everyone else is employed?
That is a bit naive isn't it?

I am getting a pay rise soon, and I damn well earned it!

"When half the country is unemployed and the government has to start retrenching because they have no incoming tax revenue from the unemployed only then will these people get on the same page as the rest of private enterprise."

There's been quite a bit of retrenchment in the public service already. In the rural area where I live, the various land and water departments, national parks, CMAs, etc. have been destaffed over the last couple of years. Whole offices have closed down. Then people whinge that the departments don't do enough back-burns, or manage the ferals in the parks. The same applies to the health system. You want an ambulance under half an hour? Happy to lie in the ambulance until there's a free bed?

Can't have it both ways!

Does anyone know what soldiers are actually paid? The newspaper articles I've read just talk about percentage increases. I have no idea what the pay rate is and how that relates to other areas or to the basic wage. This makes it hard to assess whether the claims are reasonable

Cossomby, I am simply suggesting that in times like these, where so many are loosing their jobs, people should be more than happy with any pay rise.

As for soldiers pays, it's my understanding that they have several rates depending on the level of active involvement they are in.

Suze, all I'm suggesting is that in times like these, any pay rise should be seen as a real bonus.

You do know we are headed for trouble don't you! I guess we can be thankful we don't have as many illegals entering our cow try and exhausting our welfare funding.

I'm sorry, but I believe the soldiers deserve all the pay rises they can get.

If going to places like the fun Afganistan, Syria and Iraq to fight insurgents, and the resulting huge mental and physical health problems that inevitably follow, are not enough to deserve more pay rises than the average, then what job is?

Maybe if this Government gave up on expensive schemes like the paid parental scheme, and stopped paying out millions to keep asylum seekers off our shores, then maybe they could pay our soldiers a more decent wage!

Suze, back in 99 I had a nephew go to East Timor. Back then he earned his wage, plus a $1000 tax free bonus for every week he was on active duty, which in his case resulted in an additional $50+ grand.

I think they are well paid.

ADF pay rates can be found on http://content.defencejobs.gov.au/pdf/triservice/DFT_Document_PayRates.pdf.

In summary, Army Base rates:
Other ranks from most junior to most senior:
Private: start $43,766 to $78,799 at 10 yrs.
WO2: start $66,436 to $101,437 at 10 yrs.
Officers: ditto
2Lt/0: start $49,473 to $91,087 at 10 years
Col/1. $140.505 to $182,117 at 10 years.

public servants often bang on about how hard done by they are and yet their are hundreds or even thousands of applicants for each job. They are so hard done by that so many thousands want to join the hardship. Even those who are incompetent receive large payouts when found redundant after years of inactivity. Could not help seeing how quite the luvvies went on the abc when challenged as to why women working in numerous occupations should not get the same leave conditions as teachers/nurses/clerks/abc employmees. Many suck on the public purse all their life and then complain about pay. Special leave, maternity leave, recreation leave,sick leave and on top of that more super than the vast majority. Oh so great to claim victim mentality. Get good enough at it and you will get a top union job (at around $350000 per year) in order to convince those who want to be convinced how hard done by they are.

I know a bloke who is getting a base salary that is way above his true earning capacity in the real world, in fact I wouldn't employ him, I don't trust him at all.
His base salary (below) is $195,130.

"In March 2012 MPs received an increase to their base salary of 31.3 per cent. This resulted in a significant increase in the value of the salary relative to average wages. At 2.8 times the average annual wage it is at its highest level in 37 years.

On 18 June 2013, the Tribunal issued Determination 2013/13: Members of Parliament – Base salary, additional salary for Parliamentary office holders and related matters which increased the base salary by 2.4 per cent to $195,130 from 1 July 2013"

http://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliamentary_Library/pubs/rp/rp1314/ParlBaseSalary

Runner must be talking about another public service to the one I know. I've worked for both federal and state and now, running my own business, interact with public servants regularly. Staff cuts mean that the people I deal with are overloaded with extra responsibilities from the positions that have disappeared - the work doesn't disappear just because the positions are cut. When I was in the public service I often worked long hours (working in rural areas means you often have to drive hours back to town after you've put in a full day's work) - yes, accruing time in lieu, but like many people, often I never had time to take the time in lieu due to pressure of work.

It's not just my own personal experience - one of my sisters is a state school teacher - I'm amazed at the amount of work she brings home - evenings, weekends, school holidays.

Runner's rant sounds like a standard hit-the-public-servant wing, with no idea of the real situation.

Cossomby

I to have worked in federal & state public service & private industry. I know their are some hard workers in the public servant but I came across a number of graduates or kids out of school who had never worked a real job in their life. They actually thought 7 hours 21 minutes a day with flex time was a hardship.

'Runner's rant sounds like a standard hit-the-public-servant wing, with no idea of the real situation. '

no just someone who has seen first hand what really happens. Another inconvenient truth for you.

Why shouldnt EVERYBODY push for the highest wage they can get?

The executives and CEOs at the top certainly do.
The politicians sure do.
Miners, the gambling industry, the grog shops do all they can to maximise their earnings. And dont mention the banks.

The teachers and soldiers are just following the example set by our leaders.

Runner: "no just someone who has seen first hand what really happens. Another inconvenient truth for you."

Well, I too have seen (and continue to see) 'first hand what really happens'. Who's truth is 'inconvenient'? Why is your truth better than my truth?

I have no doubt there are slackers - in all walks of life. I've seen some in the public service. But in my experience - federal, two states, mostly rural and regional, they are the exception.

A recent specific example: I got phone call from a federal public servant about a (work-related) email request I'd sent. We discussed this for about half an hour (and she was helpful) - then the penny dropped and I said : 'Hey why are you still at work at 6.30pm?' (I run a home business so I work any time). Actually this is not unique - I can think of several out-of-business hours dealings I've had with the public service.

So for every slacker you quote I can match and double with overworked dedicated people. Inconvenient truth for you?

......It's not just my own personal experience - one of my sisters is a state school teacher - I'm amazed at the amount of work she brings home - evenings, weekends, school holidays.

Cossomby, their official school day starts at 9 and finnishes at 2.45. Do you think they should do their preparation, do their marking, and teach the kids in this time.

No! But that's also why they have ten weeks paid leave. Besides, there is nothing stopping them do that work at the school, they just prefer to be home instead, fo many reasons.

The fact is that we are headed for some shaky ground and many won't have a job soon, let alone a pay rise.

Rechtub is right we are in for significant cutbacks over the next few years.
Note the signals; Germany is now believed to be in recession.
The US thinks it is in recovery. The people there are suffering falling living conditions and
are happy that oil prices are falling. It is just another trouble signal.
High volatility in oil prices was predicted and one little prediction of mine;
As oil prices are below shale oil well head costs the Ponzi tight oil business will collapse
and prices will rise again in six months.

The economists do not know whether to pump more pixel money out or to raise interest rates.
The Chinese government is now pumping Billions of pixel Yuan out because of failing debt.
Currently in Europe interest rates have turned negative.
US Banks are charging Euro deposits 0.1% just to give the banks your money !
Imagine you deposit your pay in the bank and they charge YOU !
If you don't think that makes hang on tight time what does ?
All these economic signals were predicted, but no one wanted to listen.

Yes Bazz, the ol 'shel be right mate' typical Aussie ' reactive attitudes are in for a serious adjustmeAll Mall that most worry about is the budget, and even that didn't go near far enough to fix our record debt, increased demands with a falling revenue base.

I see the figures just released suggest every single illegal is costing us a staggering SIX HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS EACH, PER YEAR. That about 37 old aged pensions. I guess we are just lucky our pensioners paid tax, otherwise who knows where we would be now.

To think, when Rudd came to power we had THREE. THATS 3, not 3000, JUST THREE! Illegals in detention.

If ever there was a case for political negligence, that's it.

Rechtub wrote: "Cossomby, their official school day starts at 9 and finnishes at 2.45. Do you think they should do their preparation, do their marking, and teach the kids in this time."

The period 9-2.45 is the face-to-face classroom time. Do you think teachers arrived at five to nine, then when the bell rings at 2.45, they say, OK kids, I'm outta here - and walk off the school grounds at 2.50?

There's a ton of daily work needed in the lead-up to 9 and in the hour or so after school - classroom set-up for the lessons of the day, pack-up at the end, prep for tomorrow, daily paperwork etc. Yes, teachers can and probably many do some of the larger tasks at the end of the day at home or at school, but a full day class is pretty tiring. It would not be very efficient to do major jobs etc, piecemeal late in the afternoon each day. Then there's further training, curriculum development workshops, parent and teacher meetings, school excursion planning and running.

I am just challenging the idea that teachers have it easy with those short work days and lots of vacations. Necessary work (and I suspect a lot of excessive unnecessary administrative work) has to be done after the face-to-face school hours, at night, weekends and in vacations (the latter would be the only time for required further training, workshops etc.)

I have not worked as a school teacher but occasionally as TAFE teacher and in short workshops. My rule of thumb would be at least two hours prep for every face-to-face hour in the classroom

Our record debt ....

By comparison with the rest of the G20: see http://ieconomics.com/g20-government-debt.

Seventeen of the 20 countries, topped by Japan (227%) have a higher government debt than Australia (20.48%). only Russia and Saudi Arabia have less.

I agree it's important to manage the debt (and a lot of other countries need to take action fast), but if we run around like chicken little - the sky is falling! - and panic, we risk doing things that will cause other problems.

"Every single illegal is costing us a staggering SIX HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS EACH, PER YEAR."

Well, it wouldn't be so much if we didn't set up expensive concentration camps in other countries and bribe those countries handsomely. On the other hand I wonder how much of that money is being paid to Australian companies with Australian staff to set up and run the camps? I imagine a case could be made for the boost to the economy!

.....Well, it wouldn't be so much if we didn't set up expensive concentration camps in other countries

Better yet, it wouldn't be a problem had one K Rudd not decided he would almost single handedly reinvent the wheel. We had policies that worked, we also had money in the bank and ZERO DEBT.

So while you talk of our debt being low compared to others, how do you think we would be now had Rudd not got his hands on the cheque book?

As for the sky falling in, how do you think we are going to be in a few years once we loose our car industries?

Do you think we should be concerned, or, would you prefer we just worry about that when it happens?

Personally, I would prefer a pro active approach, which of cause will be quite a challenge now we have no money.

Of cause one K Rudd will be fine!

Cossomby I lived with a school teacher for a number of years. She went on to be a very senior principal, so she was probably moderately good at least. She never brought work home, ever.

My wife & I introduced a school textbook hire program into our local 1700 kid high school, on behalf of the P&C, 20+ years ago, when such schemes were quite novel. It currently cuts the cost of books for parents quite dramatically, while putting $170,000 PA into the school coffers.

This was done for free in our spare time originally, but ended up with an employee at school from 8.00AM to 4.00 PM to facilitate class sets for teachers would not organise a day in advance.

To buy new books for any subject at the right price, & get them all covered, catalogued & ready for the new year, I had to order them in September, or early October each year. It took over 20 nights, with a dozen or more P&C members & many of their kids to do this work. There was also a similar amount of work repairing books, & removing obscene, [if sometimes very funny] comments added by students.

Getting the heads of departments to actually get off their slack butts & give me a list of what they wanted for next year cost so much of my time, that after 15 years I stopped doing it.

In my experience Teachers are about as slack a profession as there is, unless you count the rest of the public service. At least 20% of them are a waste of space, & not worth feeding.

Up until three years ago I worked as an assistant nurse at an aged care facility. Fourteen years in total. The last pay rise we received was .23c Im pretty sure taking my hourly rate up to $18.30. Annual income in the low thirties. We jumped up and down on many occasions at how much less we were earning compared to those working in hospitals. To no avail of course. It was a struggle believe me.
I would imagine the soldiers, as well as being paid quite well would receive free or cheap housing, paid travel etc. not too hard done by.
Then there's the parliamentarians, the most privileged of all giving themselves payrises, unreasonably large ones. Other than adding yet more tax to already hugely taxed items, they seem to be quite comfortable and not at all guilty receiving their fat pay packets and bonuses.